Q&A: How Do You Maximize a Mini-Retirement?

Summary

Podcast Summary: Afford Anything

Host: Paula Pant (with Joe Salsihai)
Episode: Q&A: How Do You Maximize a Mini-Retirement?
Date: September 30, 2025

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Overview

This episode of Afford Anything dives deep into the concept of the "mini-retirement"—taking a substantial break from work to rest, recharge, and re-explore life. Through listener questions, Paula Pant and co-host Joe Salsihai unpack the psychological and practical aspects of taking career pauses, tackling issues like health insurance, financial strategy, and the quest for meaningful work. The show also touches on managing leftover college savings, disaster tax relief, and the importance of social capital and community.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Mini-Retirement: Why and How?

(Timestamps: 00:00–27:34)

• Listener Question: Danielle contemplates leaving her unsatisfying job to take a “mini-retirement” and asks how to handle health insurance.
• Paula’s Take: The real issue isn’t insurance logistics (which she addresses briefly via healthcare.gov) but the fear and uncertainty behind choosing a nontraditional path for life and career.
  • “Your true question behind the question is how do I find the confidence to take this mini retirement?” (06:04)
• Joe’s Reflection: Regrets are rarely about moving too quickly; more often, people wait too long.
  • “I don't look back at any of the decisions that I made and think to myself, man, I wish I'd waited longer…” (08:39)
• Burnout Statistics: Americans waste 765 million vacation days per year, indicating a widespread need for more intentional rest. (09:49)
• Best Practices for a Mini-Retirement:
  • Block social media and streaming apps using tech like the Freedom app to avoid numbing distractions (14:06).
  • Turn off phone notifications ("a thief of joy"; 16:57).
  • Focus on subtracting (screens, distractions) rather than just adding new activities.
  • Treat the time as a "science experiment": follow curiosity, be in the moment, delay judgment, collect data from new experiences (21:19).
  • People—community, friendships, and human connection—ultimately define the richness of the experience (24:48).
• Advice:
  • "Follow your curiosity," try activities from your childhood or things you've always wanted to do.
  • "Follow opportunities"—even if you're not initially drawn to them, serendipity plays a huge role.
  • Reframe the mini-retirement as a growth period rather than an escape.

Notable Quotes

• “The right work is energizing.” — Paula Pant (10:37)
• “Block social media from your phone… Go live out in the real world.” — Paula Pant (14:06)
• “Let's make this a true time that you can focus and regroup and really get the relaxation that you're looking for.” — Joe Salsihai (19:14)
• “It's all about the people… The thing that's really gonna make it or break it are the people around you.” — Paula Pant (24:48)
• “There’s never been a time when I thought I should wait longer.” — Joe Salsihai (27:09)

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2. College Savings Conundrum: What to Do with Extra 529 Funds

(Timestamps: 31:33–43:33)

• Listener Question: Lee has $125k left in a 529 college savings plan with no clear need for it.
• Strategies Discussed:
  • Max out 529-to-Roth IRA rollovers up to the $35,000 lifetime cap (33:08).
  • Negotiate with parents funding 529 for Lee’s child—ask if they’ll contribute towards the mortgage instead (34:42).
  • Consider UTMA/UGMA accounts if the grandparents want funds earmarked for the child (34:42).
  • Split goals—don't necessarily wait for mortgage payoff to enable one parent to stay home (35:14).
  • Explore qualified education uses: pilot school, culinary training, K-12 private school, etc. (36:22–38:07).
  • Change 529 beneficiary to other children, nieces/nephews, or oneself (40:10).
  • Withdraw funds strategically in lower-income years to reduce tax impact (38:23).
• Advice: Communicate with family about actual financial needs and be creative with the flexibility within 529 plan rules.

Notable Quotes

• “The definition of education is a lot wider than I think a lot of people think that it is.” — Joe Salsihai (36:22)
• “Remember, one doesn't have to necessarily precede the other.” — Paula Pant (42:35)

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3. Success Story: Following Opportunity Pays Off

(Timestamps: 43:33–45:59)

• Pedro Calls Back: Previous caller Pedro provides an update—using Paula and Joe’s advice, he connected with a job at the intersection of tech and government that’s fully remote, offers a community, and comes with a 30% raise (43:33).
  • “I found more than a job. I found a community.” — Pedro (44:28)
• Hosts celebrate the power of experimenting with career opportunities and not staying stuck.

Notable Quote

• “This is, for me, the power of going out and looking at life as a science experiment.” — Joe Salsihai (45:59)

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4. Tax Relief After Disaster: Navigating Retroactive Legislation

(Timestamps: 48:51–59:45)

• Listener Question: Melanie wants to know if she can amend her tax return for retroactive relief on disaster expenses under new legislation.
• Joe’s Insight:
  • Generally, you have three years from your filing date (or two from tax payment) to amend a return (50:25).
  • The government doesn’t proactively notify people—taxpayers need to stay informed.
  • It’s nearly impossible for regular people to keep up; working with a professional CPA or EA is vital for complex returns (52:56–55:36).
  • Second opinions from tax professionals can uncover missed benefits (54:25).
• Paula’s Input: Building a long-term relationship with a tax professional means they know your evolving life story and potential benefits (55:36).
• Discussion on CPA vs. EA: EAs are often more affordable and specifically trained for tax preparation.

Notable Quotes

• “If you don't know the right question to ask, it's almost impossible. It's so frustrating.” — Joe Salsihai (53:25)
• “It is not reasonable to expect your average person... to be able to keep up with all of this.” — Paula Pant (59:15)

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Notable Moments & Quotes

• “We're tired, Paula. We're tired. We're burning the candle at both ends.” — Joe Salsihai (09:49)
• “Show up to your problems in a really nice limo is awesome, but the problems are still going to be there.” — Joe Salsihai (13:45)
• “The number one thing that both Joe and I are recommending is screen avoidance during that mini retirement.” — Paula Pant (19:25)
• “People with important jobs had crackberries.” — Paula Pant (20:51)
• “Do you ever think about how much that following opportunity has played a role in your life and in your career?” — Joe Salsihai (23:36)
• “Travelers tend to make fast friends, especially solo travelers… and that more than anything is, in my opinion, the best part, the most fulfilling part of any kind of travel experience.” — Paula Pant (25:53)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:00 — Opening discussion on mini-retirement, Joe’s experience
• 04:40 — Danielle’s question on mini-retirement and health insurance
• 06:04–27:34 — Deep discussion: confidence, logistics, psychology of mini-retirement
• 31:33 — Lee’s question on excess 529 plan funds
• 43:33–45:59 — Pedro’s update on career success
• 48:51–59:45 — Melanie’s question on disaster tax relief, process of amending returns

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Tone and Style

Conversational, humorous, and warm—Paula and Joe blend financial advice with empathy and practical wisdom. They encourage critical thinking and experimentation, infuse the discussion with real-life examples, and never shy away from highlighting both the emotional and nitty-gritty logistical aspects of financial decisions.

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Conclusion

This episode emphasizes that financial decisions are deeply personal and psychological, not just transactional. Mini-retirements, maximizing savings, handling windfalls, and staying abreast of tax changes all require a blend of research, planning, community, and the courage to step into the unknown. Whether you’re longing for a break, facing bureaucratic red tape, or pondering your next move, the Afford Anything philosophy remains: Be curious, be intentional, and remember you can afford anything—but not everything.

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For further resources, visit affordanything.com or check the show notes for specific guides and episode links.

Transcript

[Paula Pant]

Joe, when you were 40, you sold your financial planning practice. Did you think about taking a mini retirement after that?

[Joe Salsihai]

No, not really. I thought about. I was so excited about going into teaching at the time that I did. Not at all. I was fired up and ready to move on.

[Paula Pant]

How old were you the first time that you took a mini retirement? Oh, wow.

[Joe Salsihai]

I felt like the whole time that I was in school, I truly was kind of on a mini retirement because I wasn't working. I was just taking classes and picking up my kids.

[Paula Pant]

Slacker student. That's a slacker student.

[Joe Salsihai]

I felt like school was retirement.

[Paula Pant]

Wait, you, you are balancing a full time academic course load with raising twins?

[Joe Salsihai]

Yeah, yeah. But it wasn't hard. It just did not seem difficult. Sorry, students.

[Danielle]

Man.

[Paula Pant]

I, I want your professors.

[Joe Salsihai]

I know, they were actually really good professors, but it just did not seem. School did not seem difficult when I went back. But they say that anyway, right? That when you go back, people that take gap years back to school later and they, they know why they're there, they know what the professor's focused on. I would bet when you were just recently in school, it felt like you had a clear understanding of what the objective was.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, you know, it was very time consuming. Like, I certainly had an extremely busy schedule. But what was nice about it was that I wasn't in charge of designing the syllabus. You know, like, I didn't have to worry about any of it. I could just show up. I, I could just passively show up and be like, I'm here.

[Joe Salsihai]

Teach me.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, exactly. And that's something that I think you appreciate after you have been out in the real world, particularly in a managerial or leadership position for a while. And then you go back to school and you're like, ah, I am not responsible for putting the syllabus together. This is great.

[Joe Salsihai]

Hurrah.

[Paula Pant]

Yes. At any rate, where all of that is going, it's. This is a long walk. But we're going to address a question from a listener who is in her mid-30s. She and her husband want to take a mini retirement, but they have some concerns. They're nervous about certain things. We're also going to hear from a listener who has a young family. They want one parent to be able to stay at home. In order to do that, they would feel much better if they had their mortgage paid off. We're also going to hear from someone who spent nearly $45,000 trying to recover from a FEMA declared disaster. And after spending that money, Congress passed a retroactive tax Relief Bill. So what should she do? We're going to tackle that. And we're going to also hear from a listener who took our advice and it worked.

[Joe Salsihai]

Hey. Oh.

[Paula Pant]

Welcome to the Afford Anything podcast, the show that knows you can afford anything. Not everything. This show covers five pillars. Financial psych, increasing your income, investing, real estate, and entrepreneurship. It's double I fire. I'm your host, Paula Pant every other episode.

[Joe Salsihai]

Ish.

[Paula Pant]

I answer questions that come from you, and I do so with my buddy, the former financial planner Joe Salsihai. What's up, Joe?

[Joe Salsihai]

I am so excited to be here today because, well, my. My house is a wreck, as I showed you earlier. Yes, it's way more fun than trying to navigate around a construction zone.

[Paula Pant]

Yes, you are currently. And this speaks to social capital. You are staying with a buddy of yours who lives down the block.

[Joe Salsihai]

It is. I put up my thumb and.

[Paula Pant]

You hitchhiked there.

[Joe Salsihai]

I hitchhiked. Hitchhiked.

[Paula Pant]

I have been to both your house and this buddy's house, and I can state with firsthand knowledge that you live walking distance apart.

[Joe Salsihai]

I do, yes.

[Paula Pant]

Hitchhiking not required. When you think about the wealth that's in your life, think about your financial wealth, but also think about your social capital, the friendships that you've made. You know, who are the people who would take you in when your roof gave way and your home flooded and all of the flooring needs to be pulled up. And that is literally, Joe, the situation that you find yourself in right now.

[Joe Salsihai]

Not even figuratively, it is literally where we are right now. All the flooring in my house is pulled up because it all got wrecked. So good times.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah. And that's the beauty of good neighbors.

[Joe Salsihai]

And good homeowners insurance.

[Paula Pant]

If only we could transition to an ad break, but we won't. Instead, we'll transition to our very first question, which comes from Danielle.

[Danielle]

Hey, Paul and Joe. My name is Danielle. And a while back, I listened to your mini retirement episode. It's really great, really inspired me. But one thing I can't really wrap my head around is health insurance. I have a situation where my husband will be between jobs for six months to a year. We have plenty of money to kind of hold us over for quite a bit of time. And I'm kind of just wondering. I'm ready to pull the trigger. Maybe visit all the national parks, go live in Hawaii for a little bit. Go do things that, like, really bring me joy, because work is not one of those things anymore. And I just don't know how we would do the health insurance part. Where do we go? Where do we book? What are our best options? We are in our early 30s. I'm trying to do this before we have kids, trying to have some fun. Just really scared to leave this job. But this job doesn't bring me joy anymore. So I gotta do something that will. And I think I'm a little afraid that even after this many retirements, I won't know what brings me joy or where I should try and find work afterwards. But maybe that means I need this retirement. I'd appreciate your input and I need the push, need the push that maybe a mini retirement could be better than retiring 10 years early. Thanks, guys.

[Paula Pant]

Danielle, thank you for the question. If I may, your direct question was about health insurance. I don't think that you actually asked a question about health insurance, though. I think your true question behind the question is how do I find the confidence to take this mini retirement? Because it's clear to me from your question that you're not happy with the work that you're currently doing. You know that you have decades of work ahead and you know that the status quo is untenable. You don't want to spend the next three decades doing work that doesn't bring you joy, doing work that doesn't serve a greater purpose, doing work that isn't your calling. A mini retirement is a great break from that. But what I'm hearing in your question is that you don't simply want to hit pause, have an escape for six months and then come back to a life that's same old, same old. A mini retirement is best when, when it's not just like watching a movie. And then you, you go back to the same life that you've always done, but instead it is a transition that you experience before you embark on something even bigger and better and more of a fit. And the reason I'm reading that much into your question, Danielle, is because the direct question that you asked the health insurance piece. Easy, easy, easy, healthcare.gov done. Problem solved. There's an open enrollment season that is at the end of the year. But if somebody has a major life transition, which leaving a job qualifies as a major life transition, whether you are laid off or fired or quit or what if you separate from employment, that qualifies as a major life transition, which means you are qualified to enroll in healthcare.gov, when that happens. And so when you lose your employer sponsored health insurance, you will be qualified to enroll through healthcare.gov and then you just go on there and you shop for plans and you buy one. It's no different than buying groceries or theater tickets. Yeah. Making a car payment every month. I mean, it's expensive. Yes. The cost is going to vary depending on your state and your age. But fundamentally, what do you do when you need something? You buy it. Now, if you want, we could talk through the definition of coinsurance versus copay versus deductible versus annual out of pocket maximum. We could walk through that glossary so that you understand the options. I'm happy to do that. I don't think that's your question, though.

[Joe Salsihai]

No, I think the bigger question is around the push. As I thought through this and I thought through my life and my career and some of these big, potentially life changing decisions I've made, Paula, I don't look back at any of the decisions that I made and think to myself, man, I wish I'd waited longer to make that move. In fact, usually it's the opposite. Why didn't I do that sooner? And I think there's a lot to fear. I feel fear very, very strongly. If I were in this situation right now, I would feel this. I've been in this situation before. Sold my house and all my property and decided to become a digital nomad. That was a little scary. And to embark on a whole different adventure. But I should have done that sooner. When I look at statistics around vacations and many retirements, it takes people a full two weeks to just get their head on straight. Here's a scary fact. Do you know how much paid time off Americans waste every year and never take?

[Paula Pant]

Oh, I know. It's a big number.

[Joe Salsihai]

According to Forbes, it's 765 million vacation days every year that we don't take. We're tired, Paula. We're tired. We're burning the candle at both ends. And so to get two weeks is great. To do what Danielle's talking about and taking a mini retirement, even so much better to not even go back into that environment. And I do believe that there are a bunch of people in the fire community who think that they want to drop out because they're so tired and they're so sick of their job. When truly I believe this mini retirement is a way better idea. The right work feels so fulfilling. And I think we'll hear this later on today from another afforder about how fulfilling getting into the right climate can be.

[Paula Pant]

The right work is energizing.

[Joe Salsihai]

It is. So you just want to go, you want to do it more, you want to be there every day. And I've been in both climates. So I get how in some climates you're like, get me the hell out of here. I never want to work again. And then when you do take on another role and it's super fun, you're like, why wasn't I doing this forever? This is amazing. But it can change very quickly, Paul. As you know, just a boss change. And one of my jobs that I loved, my boss changed and our entire department morale went through the floor because the new boss just, just was a whole different topic. But it can change very quickly. So I love the idea of mini retirement. A, to recharge, B, to get out of what could be either a toxic or exhausting situation. But third, just because your life is.

[Paula Pant]

An adventure, the research shows that the three qualities that most highly correlate with your job satisfaction are mastery, autonomy, and purpose. Danielle, I am guessing that one of two things is going on. Either you have a direct supervisor or direct manager. That relationship is not going well because there is research that shows that your feelings about the person to whom you directly report is a huge factor in your level of job satisfaction. Either that's happening or the other possibility is that you do not feel mastery, autonomy or purpose within the work that you're doing. That at least one of those three qualities is lacking. Maybe two out of three. Maybe all three. I'm guessing some combination of those factors. Relationship with the direct supervisor, lack of mastery, lack of autonomy, lack of purpose. When those elements are missing from the work that you're doing, that greatly increases your likelihood of not enjoying that work.

[Joe Salsihai]

It's interesting, Paula. When I was in a leadership role, when people came into my office and asked for more money, I had to slow down and assess that situation because sometimes it was they just needed more money or the company hadn't given raises in a while and they were wondering, you know, if it was at time and I deserve more. But often, Paula, while I was always open to talking about more money and advocating on their behalf, a lot of the time, Paul, it was exactly what you are talking about. That people felt disengaged from the work. And instead of taking a second and going, what is it about this work that just isn't making me enthusiastic anymore? We think that the magic bullet is if I make more money, well, then somehow I'll re engage. And in those cases, early in my career when I didn't engage, I just found a way to either get them more money or figure out a, you know, a pathway to more money. And we didn't solve those other issues that were really the root of the problem, they were gone anyway within the next 18 months.

[Paula Pant]

Right.

[Joe Salsihai]

It turned out it wasn't even about the money. It was about those other factors that you mentioned. And it's so important, I think, when you think about, you know, I just need a raise. Well, a raise is good. And showing up to your problems in a really nice limo is awesome, but the problems are still going to be there even when you make more money.

[Paula Pant]

Limousine problems, champagne problems. So then the question is, Danielle, how do you undertake this mini retirement in a constructive way, in a way that helps you uncover what you might want to do next? So here are a few suggestions. First, block social media from your phone. There is an app called Freedom, which I use. It is an app that blocks social media from you. You can set time limits or parameters around it. So I normally have a blocker on my phone such that I can only open Instagram and Twitter on my phone between the hours of 8pm to 9pm now, there have been times that I've disabled that app. So when all of the turmoil was happening in Nepal recently, I disabled that app because I wanted to really be watching what was going on at Nepal because that news was updating minute by minute. And I also wanted to be interfacing with my family. And a lot of them were using Instagram as a communication platform. So you can disable it from time to time if you want to. But as a default, when your finger subconsciously goes to open Instagram or Facebook or any other social media platform and you just see a screen that says unavailable, go live out in the real world. There is a tremendous freedom to that what you will find. And Cal Newport, Dr. Cal Newport, who's been a guest on the show multiple times. He's a professor at Georgetown who writes about avoiding digital distraction when he runs this experiment with students. He has said that oftentimes people will engage in the principle of substitution. So if your social media is blocked, you might start obsessively reading news articles. And then when you remove all of the news apps from your phone, he said he had one student who just started obsessively checking the weather. And there was a period of about a week where one of his students could tell you the weather in virtually any city around the globe. They were like, well, today in Johannesburg, the weather is this, and in Cape Town, the weather is that. There is this addiction to opening up an app on your phone in any moment that your mind starts to wander. But after a week of obsessively checking the weather app, you're not going to get the same dopamine hit. And that unconscious scrolling is going to start to dissipate because you're not getting that reinforcement. And that's when you'll be able to disengage from your phone and actually experience your mini retirement in the real world. So that is my number one recommendation. Block social media from yourself. And if it's also helpful, block Netflix, HBO Max, all of the various streaming platforms as well.

[Joe Salsihai]

Oh, I have a. I have another one, Paula, that works really well for me in Katherine Price's amazing the Power of Fun, where she talks about this very topic of how much your phone is a thief of joy. Getting rid of notifications, Turning off all of your notifications. Permanently turn off your notifications. Because as humans, we don't switch effectively. And so if you're on task, notification shows up. Even during those times when you think you have free time, you still really want to be in the moment with people. And a notification steals that moment from you and the people that you're with. So I get a notification. And how many of us have had this at dinner, you're out with a friend, they get a notification on their phone. It ends up being nothing. You're in the middle of a really fun conversation, and it just wrecks. Oh, hold on. Wait. Oh, okay. Okay. Anyway, you were saying, Paula?

[Paula Pant]

Wow. Right? Yeah.

[Joe Salsihai]

It just steals the moment. We are not great at switching tasks. So I love the fact that I've turned off all notifications. I did that maybe five years ago. And from time to time, my spouse gets annoyed that I'm a little difficult to reach when she needs to reach me. But, man, 99% of the time, it is incredible.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, absolutely. I'm the same way. And everyone in my life has learned that I am just very slow to respond. And the people in your life will get used to that. There are probably some new people who get filtered out, who never become close to me because they expect faster responses. Fine. The people who have stuck around in my life are the people who have accepted that I'm a slow responder. That's normal. And that's just me. We were not designed to be reachable 24 7. Notable, by the way, Danielle, that Notice what Jo and I are both saying. We're not actually talking about what you should do additively during your mini retirement. We're both recommending things that you should subtract. We're highlighting the things to not do during your mini retirement. Because if you can Avoid scrolling and streaming. Yeah.

[Joe Salsihai]

To make it qualitatively better.

[Paula Pant]

Right.

[Joe Salsihai]

Let's make this a true time that you can focus and regroup and really get the relaxation that you're looking for. Lean into this new existence.

[Paula Pant]

And the theme of what this all boils down to is screen avoidance. The number one thing that both Joe and I are recommending is screen avoidance during that mini retirement. Which is funny because the next thought that enters my mind is, all right, if she had asked the same question in the year 2005, what would I have said? That was a time in which people took me, still took mini retirements, but screens weren't so ubiquitous. In order to use the Internet, you had to go to an Internet cafe. Does I don't know if anybody here remembers that, but the once upon a time, if you wanted to use the Internet while you were traveling, you had to go to a cyber cafe.

[Joe Salsihai]

But there was the equivalent among people in business. Paula, remember the BlackBerry, right? What did they call it?

[Paula Pant]

The CrackBerry.

[Joe Salsihai]

CrackBerry. Because you'd be out to dinner with your friends and all of a sudden somebody's on the crackberry and they can't stay off it because it was the same thing. It's these interrupters. Like finding the interrupters and getting rid of those things, whatever it be, it's just a screen replace the crackberry. The interrupter of choice.

[Paula Pant]

Right. But that still doesn't change the fundamental question. If this was 2005, I'd say put down the CrackBerry. I didn't have the money for a CrackBerry back in 05. In my world, only very rich people.

[Joe Salsihai]

Had Crackberries or they worked for a company where they.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, they handed. Or they worked for a company that gave them one. So people with important jobs had crackberries.

[Joe Salsihai]

Well, it's Danielle. She clearly has an important job.

[Paula Pant]

So what would I have said back then? Predominantly what I would have said is follow your curiosity. There are probably a whole bunch of things that have been latent curiosities. Maybe you've always wanted to try your hand at stand up comedy or at surfing.

[Joe Salsihai]

I would have said also to delay judgment. I feel like too often when we are searching for this thing, this nebulous perfect life that we're so busy judging whether this is the perfect thing or not, that we're truly not in the moment even enjoying it. I'm thinking of some research that I saw recently that the most fun that you can have is just to be in the moment. And if you are thinking to yourself, is this it? Is this Is this? Is it? Is this it? It will never be it. It will never be because you're so busy wondering if this is the perfect moment. But that said, also, I think the other piece of advice, Paul, that I would have is view this as a science experiment. You know, go and experience as many different things as you possibly can, walk into different situations to see what sticks and what doesn't. And it's all great data. It's fantastic data. This is where I think you take that Carol Dweck growth mentality that you and I have talked about so often on this show, that if you have a growth mentality, you're curious and you're searching, and instead of thinking, is this good, is this bad? You're thinking, let's just go mess some stuff up, right?

[Paula Pant]

So try anything that has sparked your curiosity. Go follow in that curiosity. Some things will stick, some things won't. Think back to what you enjoyed when you were a child. What were the things that you did for fun when you were 5? Do more of that and then try a couple of things that you never would have thought of. Portuguese cooking.

[Joe Salsihai]

Well, and along that line, once you've exhausted following your curiosity, or if you don't, just don't feel that particularly curious. Another vein to open is follow opportunities. Follow opportunities and just see what happens. If you have the opportunity to take the. What you say, Portuguese cooking.

[Paula Pant]

Portuguese cooking, yeah.

[Joe Salsihai]

If you have the opportunity to go with friends to Portuguese cooking and you're not particularly interested in that, but you like hanging out with these friends, it's an opportunity. Give it a shot. See what happens. You may surprise yourself.

[Paula Pant]

Right? Exactly.

[Joe Salsihai]

Do you ever think about how much that following opportunity has played a role in your life and in your career?

[Paula Pant]

Oh, I think it's been tremendous. I think the root of what I have done was I took a kernel of. I guess I'd call it a kernel of a calling. I started as a newspaper reporter, and then it was a matter of following opportunity. I began with print newspapers because that was the traditional route, and then quickly discovered that there's more opportunity if you're online and if you're independent. And that took the form of blogging, which took the form of podcasting, which is where I am today.

[Joe Salsihai]

I was an English major with an emphasis in creative writing who had a friend who called and said, we're hiring financial reps for this big company at the time. Here's the quote, Paula. We normally don't hire people like you, but I think you'd be good at this. That is a direct quote. My friend said to me, we normally don't hire people like you. And I said, let's just go talk to these people. If my friend Marcus would have never called, I might not be here with you right now.

[Paula Pant]

And speaking of you being here with me right now, the other element that I'll say, Danielle, and I think you're going to find this when you embark on the mini retirement is that ultimately it's all about the people, your enjoyment of something. And this, this traces back to what we were saying earlier about how your feelings about your manager or supervisor strongly correlate with your feelings about your job. If you like your manager, you're more likely to like your job and vice versa. If you dislike your manager, you're more likely to dislike your job. What's behind that is that it's all about people. What I think you'll see on your mini retirement is that you're going to be trying all of these different things. And sure, kite surfing or cooking or stand up comedy, the activity itself is cool, but the thing that's really gonna make it or break it are the people around you. How well do you connect with those people? What kind of friendships do you form? What kind of community do you grow? What sort of relationships do you end up building when you're on the road? And one of my favorite things about traveling are those on the road relationships. Travelers tend to make fast friends, especially solo travelers. Because you're out there by yourself, you don't have your community around you. You're either literally alone or maybe you're with one other person, a spouse, a partner, a friend. But humans naturally just want more people in their life. And so travelers have this tendency to, to very, very quickly bond and make friends and then go do things together. And that more than anything is, in my opinion, the best part, the most fulfilling part of any kind of travel experience.

[Joe Salsihai]

To an introvert like me, that always feels difficult. I'm always afraid to go out and meet new people. And yet I think about some of the relationships I've forged with people on different vacations and many retirements I've taken. And those have been some of my favorite moments, meeting the people in the places that I went. Some of the biggest lessons I've learned have come from the people that I've also met on the road.

[Paula Pant]

So that's our advice for the mini retirement. Go for it, do it. Minimize your screen time.

[Joe Salsihai]

And I'd like to reemphasize, there's never been a time when I thought I should wait longer. I've never had one. And I think the key there, Paula, is time. I think we need to be cognizant of you don't know how much time you have. So do it. Go find the thing.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah. So thank you, Danielle, for the question and enjoy the mini retirement. Please call us back and let us know how it goes.

[Joe Salsihai]

And if you're coming through Texarkana, let me know and we'll take you to lunch because that's where everybody wants to go. Paula, for their mini retirement. Is Texarkana, Texas.

[Paula Pant]

Texarkana, Texas, Yes.

[Joe Salsihai]

Or Texarkana, Arkansas. That's fine too.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, you can do a backbend over the Texas, Arkansas state line.

[Joe Salsihai]

Spoken like somebody who's done it twice.

[Paula Pant]

We're gonna take a break to hear from the sponsors who make the show possible. When we come back, we're going to talk to a young family that wants the freedom for one parent to stay at home. That's coming up next. If you run a business, every time you miss a call, you're leaving money on the table. Think about the last time that you had a plumbing emergency if the first plumber didn't answer. Did you wait? No, of course not. You called the next plumber on the list. With OpenPhone, you'll never miss an opportunity to connect with your customers. OpenPhone is one of the top business phone systems that streamlines and scales your customer communications. It works through an app on your phone or computer so you don't need to carry two phones around. And your team can share one number and can collaborate on customer calls and texts, just like a shared inbox. That way any teammate can pick up right where the last person left off. Plus, say goodbye to voicemail. Their AI agent can be set up in minutes to handle calls, after hours to answer questions, to capture leads, so you will never miss a customer. And whether you're one person operation that's drowning in calls and texts or whether you have a large team that needs better collaboration tools, Openphone is a no brainer. See why over 60,000 businesses trust Openphone. Openphone is offering my listeners 20% off of your first six months at openphone.com Paula that's O-P-E-N-P-H-O-N-E.com Paula and if you have existing numbers with another service, Openphone will port them over at no extra charge. Open Phone, no missed calls, no missed customers. What are your plans for the holidays? Do you have family that's coming to visit? As you know, there's so much that goes into getting ready to host. Maybe you have a guest room that needs a new comforter. Maybe your serveware needs a refresh as the holidays approach, get what you need to personalize your home with Wayfair. You can refresh your guest room with beddings and linens and throw pillows and accent chairs. And you can get Christmas trees and wreaths and holiday decor for every room of the house. For me, I live in a Manhattan apartment, so from Wayfair I got shelving. When square footage is at a premium, cubic footage matters. So I got lots of shelving for the front entryway for the bathroom. But for you, whatever it is that you need for the holidays, holiday linens, towels, seasonal favorites, kitchen essentials, a living room refresh stuff for the kids rooms. You can find it all there. There's a massive selection. Something for every style and every home and free and easy delivery even on the big stuff. Get organized, refreshed and ready for the holidays. For way less head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W A Y-F-A I R.com Wayfair Every style, every home.

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[Paula Pant]

Welcome back. Our next question comes from Lee.

[Lee]

Hi Paul and Jo, this is Lee from Oregon. I'm hoping you can help me think through what to do with $125,000 left over in my 529. I'm 31 and my husband is 33. We have a great income. We're debt free other than our mortgage. We both do have master's degrees and neither of us have an intention of going back to school. We do have a 4 month old son could potentially use the 529 but my parents are setting up a 529 for him that will be fully funded. I don't know how much but it will be enough so I'm not anticipating that he will need it either. I have been rolling over 7k per year into my Roth IRA but since that's capped at 35,000 for the lifetime. There'll still be a substantial amount left over once I'm done rolling it into my IRA. We've already taken out 30k the last 2 years to put on our mortgage, but since it's taxed at ordinary income instead of capital gains, plus the state income tax from the great state of Oregon and the 10% penalty for non educational purposes, it's been giving me some heartburn to take it out. But I'm not really sure what else to do with the money since I don't see anyone in my family needing it for education. My husband and I do have a goal of paying off our house and working hard towards that, so hopefully we can be financially independent enough for one of us to stay home with the kids. The 529 money would help toward that goal, but it would not totally pay off our mortgage. Any advice on how to think through this would be great. I love the show and appreciate you helping so many people with personal finance.

[Paula Pant]

Lee, thank you so much for the question. First of all, congratulations on everything. You are handling your personal finances with attention, with care, with intent. It's clear that you're making some very, very excellent financial moves. So let's talk about what to do with this 529money. The first thing that I was going to say, and this is something that you're already doing, is to roll 529money into an IRA. You are already doing that. That's wonderful. You're doing that until it maxes out. I would do that up to the full 35,000. Get the maximum Roth IRA contribution that you can out of that 529 money. Beyond that, for the remainder of the 529 money after the Roth IRA transition has been maxed out, what I would suggest is that you have a conversation with your parents and say, hey, thank you so much for volunteering to put money aside for our son's 529. Here's the situation. We don't need that money placed in a 529 specifically. We're not asking for any more money. But whatever money you were planning on contributing, would you consider putting that same equivalent amount of money towards our mortgage payoff? Because that would be much more beneficial for us than putting this money into a 529. I think if your parents understood the situation and the constraints around the accounts that you're managing, they might be willing to do that.

[Joe Salsihai]

If they want the money specifically to be for the child, they can put it in what's called an UTMA or UGMA account for them. That may affect your child's ability to get financial aid in the future. But you know what, Paula? If they're going to have plenty of money between the 529 plan and a brokerage account, so it's meant to be for the child specifically, then a lot of that assistance will be off the table anyway. I would present that as a second option if they truly want to be for their grandchild and not for you.

[Paula Pant]

I also, Lee, I hear two different goals in the question that you've asked because I hear the goal of allowing one parent to stay at home and I also hear the goal of mortgage payoff. Now, it's possible that the two goals could relate to one another. So it might be the case that and I didn't hear you state this directly, but it might be the case that you would like to pay off the mortgage such that you free yourself of a major bill. And once you have freed yourself of that mortgage, you freed yourself of that big bill, you would feel more comfortable making an income adjustment such that one parent could stay at home. Maybe that's the transition here, and that's one way to look at it. But a different way to look at this situation is that there are two separate goals that are independent of one another. One goal is mortgage payoff and the other goal is for one parent to stay at home. Maybe the mortgage payoff does not need to happen prior to one parent staying at home. Maybe there are ways to adjust your budget such that one parent can stay at home even while you continue to have a mortgage.

[Joe Salsihai]

Yeah, we don't know enough about the situation to answer that, but that's certainly an avenue I would explore. It's a vein I think we need to look at. I think also taking money out of the 529 plan, you already have done the $35,000 maximum into the Roth IRA. You also mentioned that you and your husband have no intention of further education, which a lot of people don't know, Paula, that you are allowed to change the beneficiary. So you can change the beneficiary back to yourself or to your husband and then use it for your education. Clearly you already know that. I just didn't know if our afford anything audience knew that that that flexibility exists when it comes to the beneficiary designation. Another consideration, though, the definition of education is a lot wider than I think a lot of people think that it is. So as an example, our mutual friend OG from Stacking Benjamin's is a pilot. If you go to a certified flight school, that 529 money can be used for certified flight school. If you decide that you want to take cooking classes or golf instruction or some other sport or activity instruction, it can be much, much wider, I think, than a lot of people think. So if, if those things are on the bucket list, then I may look deeper into what certifications are necessary and ask the institution if 529 money can be taken out to pay for that tuition for the expense of learning, whatever that thing might be.

[Paula Pant]

Right. Remember also that 529 money can be used for K12 educational expenses. And so if you have any plan of sending your son to a private high school, perhaps 529money could also be used for that.

[Joe Salsihai]

The only other possibility that I know of of avoiding taxes are actually, if your child has any special needs, an able account. You are able to change 529money into an able account, achieving a better life experience account for the vast majority of people. That's not an option, but that's the only other way that I know to avoid taxes altogether. I think beyond that, Paula, it's much more about minimizing the tax bills. So let's walk through this. You're going to pay the 10 penalty on the earnings that come out of the account. The money comes out of the account pro rata, meaning every time you withdraw money, it's going to be a portion of it is your contribution and a portion is going to be the gain that it had. The 10% penalty is only going to apply to the gain, not to the money that you put in. The gain also is going to be taxed as income. So again, not the money you put in, but just the gain going to be taxed as income. I think the only way to minimize that tax is to make sure that you're not in a higher tax bracket with that money. So if you're right on the tax bracket line and next year you think you're going to have less income, I would try to withdraw the money strategically during lower income years to, to at least save a couple percentage points on.

[Paula Pant]

The tax bill, which could dovetail nicely with one parent staying at home because their overall tax bracket would decrease at that time.

[Joe Salsihai]

Yeah, it's not going to get rid of the penalty, not going to get rid of the taxes, but it will make it a little bit less of a kick in the butt.

[Paula Pant]

There's also the possibility on the topic of changing the beneficiary dedicating a portion of it to nieces, nephews, other family members along the horizontal branches of the family tree.

[Joe Salsihai]

I don't know about that. Everybody's values are different. But if it's my nephew, my nephew's college fund versus paying off my mortgage ball. I'm sorry, nephew.

[Paula Pant]

Well, you have eight nieces and nephews, Joe.

[Joe Salsihai]

I do.

[Paula Pant]

That's a lot of college funds.

[Joe Salsihai]

Nine.

[Paula Pant]

Nine? You have nine?

[Joe Salsihai]

No, wait a minute. That's only on one side of the family I have.

[Paula Pant]

Oh, that's right.

[Joe Salsihai]

14.

[Paula Pant]

Wow.

[Joe Salsihai]

14.

[Paula Pant]

Wow. You have a big horizontal family.

[Joe Salsihai]

Why, thank you.

[Paula Pant]

Both of my parents were one of six children, so I have a lot of cousins.

[Joe Salsihai]

So you've got a bunch of cousins. Yeah, well, mine too. I mean, we talk nieces and nephews, but my dad had 16 brothers and sisters, so.

[Paula Pant]

Wow.

[Joe Salsihai]

Yeah. So there you go. I've got tons of cousins. There are sea highs all over the place.

[Paula Pant]

We're taking over in any event. That's also a possibility. The other thing to consider. And, Joe, this goes back to what you were saying when you discussed pilot school or culinary school. In your retirement, would you have any interest in pursuing some qualified educational program just for fun, Just as a retirement thing, not as part of your career, but just because retirement is that part of your life where you have the time and the freedom and the flexibility to be able to study something just because.

[Joe Salsihai]

I don't know. I don't even know about waiting for retirement for that. I like doing it now. It's always fun to learn a new skill or to have a new hobby. I love to cook. And there's nothing that takes your mind off of the day than a sharp knife.

[Paula Pant]

I'm gonna play that snippet at your trial, Joe. Well, with a vegetable, that's gonna be. I believe that's admissible evidence.

[Joe Salsihai]

Talk about with. With a vegetable. If I've gotta cut vegetables for my salad, then I'm not thinking about what happened during my day. It's a nice way to take the focus off whatever was driving my day.

[Paula Pant]

But on the whole, I think the number one thing, if. If your parents would agree to taking the same amount of money that they were planning on putting into a 529, and if they would agree to put it in some other type of account, that would be the best approach. That would certainly be the simplest of all of the things that we've discussed. So thank you for the question. Leigh. Best of luck with both of the goals that you've outlined. Paying off the mortgage and structuring your budget, such that one parent can stay at home. And remember, one doesn't have to necessarily precede the other. They can both be pursued independently of each other. Before we move to the next question, let's hear from a previous caller who took our advice on how to find remote work. And that advice paid off.

[Pedro]

Hi, Paula and Joe. This is Pedro calling again. I was featured on episode 605, and I wanted to give you guys an update. If you remember my situation. I was called back into the office as a fed, and I was looking for a way out. Both of you gave me very sound advice on looking for a job that was at the intersection of tech and government. You know, instead of dropping resumes, just trying to find connections and people who could refer me to these new jobs. Right. That's exactly what I did. And I'm happy to say it worked pretty well. I landed a job that does government contracts, both at the federal and state level. I am loving it so far. I'm one month in. Their culture is 100% in line with my values. They're 100% remote, for starters. A lot of the employees, including my immediate supervisor, actually are digital nomads. I found a more than a job. I found a community. And I'm really appreciating the work that I'm doing there. On top of that, I got a match on all the benefits I had at the government, plus a 30% pay increase. And as I said, the job is 100% remote. So it's exactly what I was looking for. And I'm already planning my next RV trip to Alaska. So I have to thank both of you for giving me such sound advice. It's really a privilege to be part of this community. Thank you, Paul and Joe.

[Joe Salsihai]

I hope. I hope Danielle has stayed around to hear that call.

[Paula Pant]

Wow.

[Joe Salsihai]

Because Pedro went searching for it, Paula. And look at what happened right when.

[Paula Pant]

Pedro called episode 605. We'll link to it in the show notes. He was really wanted to find fulfilling work that was fully remote, that paid well, but that also allowed him to take these adventures with his family. And now here we are. So congratulations to you, Pedro. You. You built this. You did this. You put in the effort, you made the connections, you reached out to people, you forged those relationships. You did the hard work that got you to the position that you're in right now. So big congratulations to you.

[Joe Salsihai]

This is, for me, the power of going out and looking at life as a science experiment. I mean, when Pedro first took that new job and he didn't know it was Going to be a perfect fit. He didn't know that the community was going to be there with a bunch of like minded people. He just knew it sounded good. So chasing that opportunity, that is just fantastic. How well it fit, that warms my heart. That's super cool.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much, Pedro, for calling back with an update. I love it when people do that. If, if you're someone who's listening and you've previously called in with a question, I would love it if you could call back with an update. These are some of our favorite moments, you know, hearing how it all turned out.

[Joe Salsihai]

And just to be clear, when we give this advice, the advice truly is to just try. I love hearing that it worked out really, really well. But Paula, I have to say, in your wildest dream and my wildest dream, we would, Pedro, go try it and it's going to be perfect. Like we would never. You're going to get a big raise. It's going to be a bunch of like minded people. It's all going to be perfect.

[Paula Pant]

No, I always think in probabilities, right, there's a distribution of possible outcomes and your outcome could fall anywhere along that, that probabilistic distribution.

[Joe Salsihai]

Sure.

[Paula Pant]

But you give yourself a better shot, you know, a better likelihood of a positive outcome if you take a couple of key steps.

[Joe Salsihai]

Yes. And for that reason our advice focused on the input of what to do, not on the outcome. The inputs are better. The chance of the outcome being better increases substantially. And I think we're seeing that today. You know, as more and more of our audience uses AI, we're learning that using AI to do your homework for you is a waste of time, is horrible. But if you have great inputs, which takes an education to get great inputs and it takes direction and a sense of purpose and knowing exactly what you want as you focus on better inputs, guess what happens with ChatGPT? It becomes, becomes better and better and better.

[Paula Pant]

Right.

[Joe Salsihai]

But Pedro, that's great news.

[Paula Pant]

We're going to take one final break to hear from the sponsors who make the show possible. And when we return, we're going to hear from someone who spent around $45,000 in order to pick up the pieces after a FEMA designated disaster. That's coming up right after this. Welcome back. Our final question today comes from Melanie.

[Melanie]

Hi, Paula and Jo, this is Melanie. I've called in before and I love both your shows. This time I have a natural disaster and tax question for you. I was looking into the one big beautiful Bill act and I saw that There is tax relief for disaster victims included in the bill. I then found the Federal Disaster Tax relief Act of 2023, which was not passed until December of 2024, long after I submitted my 2023 tax return. However, it provided tax relief retroactive for tax year 2023. In 2023, I experienced a FEMA declared natural disaster where I spent around $22,000 on demo, a new furnace, furniture and other repairs. I spent another $23,000 on related costs such as a flood control system, a drain tile system and sewer pipe repair. I was able to get some financial relief from FEMA and $5,000 from my homeowner's insurance. Is there any way for me to benefit from these tax relief bills? Can I amend my 2023 tax return? What information and documentation do I need to ensure everything is done properly? And further, as a more global question, how was I supposed to know about the retroactive bill if I can benefit from it? Should I have received something from FEMA to notify me of the possible relief? I want to make sure that I can benefit from future legislative changes and how a regular person should be keeping up with everything. Thanks so much for your time and your expertise.

[Joe Salsihai]

Melanie. Thank you so much for the call. And I am so sorry to hear about the whatever, whenever the word FEMA is part of your call, Paula.

[Paula Pant]

Right.

[Joe Salsihai]

That's not good. I want to broaden this out just for a moment, for the entire audience, Melanie, just because whenever you either find out there was some relief available, whether in your case it wasn't available and then it was available, or they restated that it's available, sometimes it's retroactive like you mentioned, or if you just made a mistake or you figure out that there's some opportunity to take advantage of you, generally 99.9% of the cases you have three years from the date that you filed your original tax return or two years from the day you paid the tax to amend your return to include the new information. If you filed early, by the way, that three years doesn't start on the day that you filed to say you filed it in end of January or February. It actually starts on the April tax deadline, often the 15th to the 17th of April. So three years from that date. So you're clearly within the time frame to do that and everybody listening. If you go back and you find something like Melanie did, you can look three years out. The rest of this question, Paula, is frustrating because when they, when the government announces stuff like that, I mean, they're not going to send Melanie a quick text saying, hey, Melanie, this applies to you.

[Paula Pant]

And if you do get a text like that, it's probably a scammer. Beware.

[Joe Salsihai]

Yeah.

[Paula Pant]

Because they don't send text messages.

[Joe Salsihai]

They do not. And they don't know your personal situation.

[Paula Pant]

It came through on telegram. Do you think it's legit?

[Joe Salsihai]

I was part of a group chat with people from the irs. Not at all.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah.

[Joe Salsihai]

So the rest of this then is frustrating. You have to, you have to stay a little bit up on what's going on in the world, tax wise. I also think that if you have a complication that you think might. Might have some relief attached to it, that's a good reason to go reach out to a tax professional, professional, tax preparer, who is on top of it and ask the very specific question. Here is my situation. Do you know has there been any tax relief about that situation or related situations?

[Paula Pant]

Yeah. The primary way that I keep up with changes to tax policy is by asking a CPA or an EA or some other type of tax professional. Their job is to stay on top of the stuff. And unfortunately, the tax code is so complicated and changes so often that you do need somebody whose job is literally to stay on top of the stuff in order to. To really be on top of it.

[Joe Salsihai]

And the hard part that we can't answer is how do you find out about what you don't know? The answer is if you don't know the right question to ask, it's almost impossible. It's so frustrating. I think maybe if you think there might be a distinct possibility that your taxes are not complete, well, then I think it might be worth the time to even sit down with a tax professional and have them look through last year's return. I had this happen, by the way, Paula, when I switched tax people maybe four, five, five years ago. My new tax people looked through my last three years returns and said we found a fairly significant mistake. And I ended up with a nice additional refund with a comma in it. Ooh, comma in it.

[Paula Pant]

I know, comma in it.

[Joe Salsihai]

Yeah. Which was very surprising. So even just getting that second opinion can be a good idea.

[Paula Pant]

I also think one of the benefits if you've been working with the same tax professional for a number of years, one of the benefits of doing that is that they know you and they know your situation and they know the changes that happen in your life that ones that slowly tend to happen over the span of years. You know, if you take on a new rental property or if you start a new business or if just all of those things that happen in the span of a person's life by virtue of working with the same tax pro year after year after year, they get to track that. And oftentimes when something happens, you know they're thinking about you. If there's a particular tax pro that you've been working with for a while and you get married, you get divorced, you have a baby, you in this case experience a natural disaster, they know your life. Your tax pro really has relatively intimate knowledge of your life, of all the details of your life.

[Joe Salsihai]

The issue is with the standard deduction a few years ago going up by a lot of the need for a tax pro for 95% of the afford anything audience is very, very small. So I will say this. When I first hired Catherine, the woman whose team currently handles my taxes, I did tell Catherine, she made me though Paula tell her my story. And she called me the next day and said, wait a minute, I was looking through your stuff, which looked fine before I thought about your story. Didn't you tell me xyz? And I said, yeah. And she said, that's not in here. And I can see how somebody would have missed it that that wasn't in here. So even if you don't have that long term relationship, which I did not with Katherine, just telling the tax person who knows how to convert the story into the language of taxation can be a big win.

[Paula Pant]

Wow, that's a good catch.

[Joe Salsihai]

That is good stuff. I will mention this also, and Melanie did not ask, but I have created a tax guide that we update every single year. We update actually every single month based on what's going on with tax law. You get an email from me that says, hey Melanie, here's our changes with the one big beautiful bill. Paula, oh my goodness. The updates that we made on that tax guide were monster, monster, monster updates. You're still going to need to open the emails from me and you're going to need to see what the changes were to the tax guide. But that is something that, that I'm very proud of. It's stacky benjamin.com guides.

[Paula Pant]

We'll link to that in the show notes.

[Joe Salsihai]

And that's the frustration still that I have even with our guide is if you don't know what question to ask, right? Even with a guide, how do you, how do you come across? This applies to me and that's when the pro beats everything.

[Paula Pant]

And Joe, going back to what you said about how for a lot of people, because the standard deduction is so high, a lot of people don't find it financially worthwhile to work with a tax pro. One thing that I will say to that topic is that working with an EA can be less expensive than working with a cpa. So if you're in a situation where you feel like you can't justify the cost of working with a cpa, an EA is also a great option.

[Joe Salsihai]

And an EA for a lot of people, Paul, I think maybe even closer than to what you want. There are certainly CPAs who do tax returns all day, but there's many CPA friends that I have that don't do many tax returns. And it's a great question to ask, but an EA is. EA means enrolled agent, and that means they are pros at filling out tax returns and they know the tax code that goes into filling out tax returns the right way. I think that for many of us, an EA might be specifically who you want.

[Paula Pant]

And there are a lot of CPAs who will hire EAs to work at the CPA firm. I know my CPA. I work with a CPA because my situation is a little complicated. I wanted a CPA who, he also has a master's in tax planning. So I wanted to go with the best of the best. But in his firm, he has a bunch of EAs who work there, which makes sense.

[Joe Salsihai]

If he's focused on the tax planning portion and the EA is focused on the line by line stuff, that's a marriage made in heaven.

[Paula Pant]

Exactly. So that's an option as well. But yes, Melanie, you. You hit on an important topic, which is that the tax code is tremendously complicated and it changes all of the time. And it is not reasonable to expect your average person who has a job in an unrelated field to be able to keep up with all of this. So thank you for the question. Best of luck with picking up the pieces after this disaster and moving ahead.

[Joe Salsihai]

Yeah.

[Paula Pant]

Well, Joe, we've done it again.

[Joe Salsihai]

Wow. Some fantastic questions again.

[Paula Pant]

Incredible. Joe, where can people find you if they'd like to hear more of you?

[Joe Salsihai]

Oh, we had a fantastic discussion with Shemin Nur Muhammad recently. She has a fantastic TED talk. She is a woman who has worked with IBM and Pitney Bowes and senior leadership. But Paula, she spent a significant amount of her career in France and what she noticed as a productivity expert is the huge culture clash when we work 247 often to get ahead. In the United States, The French take 90 minute lunches. They have this paradox of I'm going to take the entire month of August off. So in the same vein we were talking about today of mini retirement and the fact that we need to be rested, she has a new project out that she calls the French Paradox and it's about how embracing leisure the French way can help us transform our work life balance. And it's a really interesting granular discussion. Whether you're somebody who has to convince your boss to give you more time off or you need to realize that, you know what, those days that we don't take, those paid time off, days that we, we leave every year because we think we have to stay at the desk, I think she's going to be really good at changing your mind.

[Paula Pant]

Excellent. And that's on the Stacking Benjamin's podcast.

[Joe Salsihai]

Wherever finer podcasts are found.

[Paula Pant]

Amazing. Well, thank you Joe and thanks to all of you for being part of the Afforder community. If you enjoyed today's episode, please do three things. First, share this with the people in your life. Share it with your EA and your.

[Joe Salsihai]

CPA and your French travel agent.

[Paula Pant]

Ooh, share it with all of those people and more. Because that is the single most important way that you can spread the message of F I R E. Second, open up your favorite podcast playing app, leave us up to a five star review and hit the follow button so that you don't miss any of our amazing upcoming episodes. Third, subscribe to our newsletter affordanything.com newsletter let me add a fourth as well. Join our community affordanything.com community so you can have discussions lively, vibrant discussions with like minded people about all of these topics that we discussed today and more. Thank you again for tuning in. I'm Paula Pant. I'm Joe Salsihai and we'll meet you in the next episode.