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Afford Anything | Get Smarter With Money
Q&A: My Boss Said Return to Office. So I’m Quitting.
00:46:57
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- [00:00]
Paula Pant
Joe, when your twins were young, did you ever go on long road trips with them? Did you even, like, live in an RV or something with them? Anything like that?
- [00:08]
Joe Salsihai
We did not live in an rv. I shouldn't be laughing. I'm like, no, not with my twins. I didn't do that. We did take a long road trip. It was 10 days with 2 year olds. They both got sick maybe 4 hours after we left home.
- [00:23]
Paula Pant
Aw.
- [00:23]
Joe Salsihai
Yeah. So we had some fun cleaning out the car seats and yeah, it was a good time.
- [00:29]
Paula Pant
Vomit on wheels, it was.
- [00:32]
Joe Salsihai
We went to a national park, Mesa Verde National Park. And we went to Mesa Verde. I stayed with the 2 year olds while Cheryl went and looked at the cliff dwellings. So I've been to Mesa Verde. I've never seen the cliff dwellings except from the parking lot.
- [00:47]
Paula Pant
Oh, well. We're going to hear from a listener who has gone to many national parks with his kids and would like to continue doing so, but there's a return to the office mandate and that interferes with national park time. So what should he do? We're also going to hear from a caller who wants to live abroad and has some related questions. So, Joe, it's a travel theme today.
- [01:11]
Joe Salsihai
I guess it is. Let's get our backpack and go.
- [01:14]
Paula Pant
Welcome to the Afford Anything podcast, the show that understands you can afford anything, but not everything. Every choice carries a trade off. This show covers five pillars. Financial, psychology, increasing your income, investing, estate, and entrepreneurship. It's double I fire. I'm your host, Paula Pant. I trained in economic reporting at Columbia. Every other episode, I answer questions from you and I do so with my buddy, the former financial planner, Joe Salsihai. What's up, Joe?
- [01:38]
Joe Salsihai
I love this idea of travel. I mean, we're getting into the travel season now in the Northern hemisphere. So for all of our Northern Hemisphere listeners, you know, they're thinking about what's all the fun we're going to have this spring, summer, fall. It's a great episode.
- [01:51]
Paula Pant
Absolutely. Let's hear from our first caller.
- [01:55]
Pedro
Hi, Paola and Joe. I'm a longtime listener, first time caller. I just wanted to start by saying that you, Paula, influenced my view on FI for the longest time. I'd started really trying to pursue FI with that mentality that it was an all or nothing. But after hearing your podcast for so long, I realized there's more in life than money. And long story short, during the pandemic, my job became fully remote and I traveled around in an RV with my family. I have two kids and we went to 35 national parks. We lived in the RV for a year, and it was the most incredible experience I had in my life. Fast forward to today. I'm a federal worker, and if you've seen the news, we've been called back to the office. Right. And really, the way I traveled influenced how I see my priorities, my family, my life in a completely different lens. I homeschool my kids. I try to get them to a place where they can really connect deeply, not only with us, but with everybody else. And I feel like I'm getting that taken away from me at this point of my life. And I'm trying to get a remote job, a job that's fully remote, But I've been having a hard time. I read the news that it looks like there's a lot of demand for remote jobs now, but people are being called back to work. And I guess my question for you is just how should I go about searching for remote opportunities? I would love to be a digital nomad. My family is on board. We would like to travel overseas as well, eventually. I'm a computer programmer, so the nature of my job can be done completely independently from a location. And I've been doing this for over 10 years, and I have a lot of experience in this field. So I just don't know. I've been submitting resumes, but besides that, I don't know what else to do if there is, like, if there are other resources, if there's perhaps a coach or somebody that I could look for that could help me land one of these jobs, I wouldn't even mind paying them for it, but I just don't know where to look. I don't know if you. If you have any insight on that. I know you when you started your journey, you started freelancing when you're traveling, and you have a lot of good insights. So I would love to hear what you and Joe have to say about this. Thank you so much.
- [04:17]
Joe Salsihai
Thank you so much for the question. And wow, Paula, some very high praise there about influencing his journey. And any family that's going to go on the road as a family and really become the CEO of your life and take control, I think is pretty amazing.
- [04:34]
Paula Pant
Right? And those are core memories that you will have forever. Going to so many national parks with your kids. That's something that you will look back on when you're in your 80s, when you're in your 90s, and you will cherish.
- [04:46]
Joe Salsihai
And they will, too, which is big.
- [04:48]
Paula Pant
Yeah.
- [04:49]
Joe Salsihai
They'll remember that time with you. I Guess just a broader comment for everyone. This back to work mandate, I've read so much in the news. It's not just federal government policy, you know, it is. It was worldwide. The US Was one of the last countries to go back to the office. And I think a lot of people thought that this was going to be a cultural shift that was never going to change. Back when I saw it internationally, I thought that it would hit the United States. And I'm often wrong about a ton of stuff. But on this one, people that listen to Stacking Benjamins know I called this about a year ago that we would be going back to the office. And I think that this is going to be an uphill battle finding places that will let you work remotely full time. Because there's nowhere near as many as there were not even 12 months, six months ago. There's nowhere near as many.
- [05:39]
Paula Pant
Ooh, Joe, bringing the pessimistic case. Well, let me counterbalance that with a hefty dose of optimism. Pedro, As I see it, there are three elements to the question that you've asked. There's the element of what types of jobs should you look for? There's the element of to whom do you turn for guidance? And then there's the element of what skills or unique qualities can you leverage? So let's address all of these separately and we'll start with where do you turn? So you mentioned you're a federal worker, so a couple of resources there could be. I don't know what department you work for. It's possible that there are lateral moves that you can make inside of your agency that would allow for remote work. My guess is that might not be available, but it's at least something to explore. There's USAjobs.gov which might have listings, and you can use the word remote to filter through those searches. There are private sector contractors, which might be a better bet in terms of finding remote opportunities. So if you look for private sector contractors that do federal contracting, there are also professional associations like the association of Federal Information Resources Management that you can turn to. The acronym for them is affirm, and they may have some resources or they may be able to offer some leads. So that's where I would start if you want to look at other agencies. But of everything that I've just said, I think the private sector is going to offer more opportunity in this domain than the public sector federal jobs. And, and so I would focus either on private sector companies that do that are involved with government contracting because you would have an advantage in the application process in that you know the inner workings of the agency for which you work or if that doesn't work out, if private sector government contracting doesn't work out, then other private sector jobs look for ones that are hiring fast. There are a lot of companies, particularly in tech, which is fortunately the industry that you're in, that are growing very rapidly in the age of AI and that are boosting their employee ranks by big numbers every month. And so I would look for some type of fast growing venture funded startup, but competition for a job like that is going to be fierce. And you don't have a particular, to the best of my knowledge, a particular unique edge there where. Whereas you do have a very particular unique edge when it comes to any private sector company that does government contracting, especially if they like to work with the agency that you are involved in. So that's where I would start a.
- [08:28]
Joe Salsihai
Hundred percent, because he's got this inside view right now. And that was actually my point of the. You called the pessimism. I don't think it was as much, I don't think it was as much pessimism as it was just realistically what you're in for. It's almost like when you're designing your financial plan to expect it to be difficult and when it's not, then you're grateful for every single thing that happens and you don't get discouraged too soon. I think when we have a shrinking number of jobs, then you're going to fortify yourself to really get out there and work. And by the way, the thing that strikes me too is he mentioned that he was putting out resumes in a lot of places. I've read from a lot of experts lately, and these are different people on LinkedIn that most great jobs don't happen through resumes. You're not going to get it that way. You have to jump into networking. You have to go meet as many people as you can. And the cool thing is because we can go meet people using online resources, he can still be at home with his kids while he's spending time online getting to know the people that he needs to know to secure these jobs that he's looking for.
- [09:39]
Paula Pant
Right. Zoom is a beautiful thing and it's a great way. Even a 15 minute Zoom coffee chat is a great way to meet people. And in that regard, oftentimes those meetings lead to serendipitous introductions. So you may not necessarily be meeting with the key decision maker in a company, but you might be meeting with somebody who knows somebody and to be honest, to a certain degree, it's a numbers game. The more of those meetings that you have and the more specific you are about what talents you have to offer, what special skills you have to offer, the higher the odds start to stack up in your favor. And that leads to, as we're talking about skills, one of the other three elements, which are special skills that you can leverage. And so my first question to you is, do you have any type of security clearance? Because if you hold a security clearance, you have something valuable, right? You have something that many other programmers may not have. And so that would increase your odds of being able to get a role as a cleared programmer who can work remotely in some type of a. A role that requires that level of clearance. I would also take a look at, in terms of the jobs that you're targeting, specific skills that are needed. If there are any particular niche areas that you can specialize in, that would also enhance the unique abilities and the unique value that you bring to the table.
- [11:12]
Joe Salsihai
I think there's two sides to this interview process. I mean, number one is what you're talking about, Paula. Emphasizing your strengths and then filling the funnel with places that want those strengths. The second piece is, of course, what we call the soft skills. Once you get that introduction, then shortening the process by being as good as you can with every single one of those interactions. Right? So when he talked about resources, I like people like Vanessa Van Edwards at Science of People is a great person in terms of communication skills and building warmth and relationships. There's a woman who used to work for LinkedIn who has a new book coming out. Lorraine Lee is her name.
- [11:57]
Paula Pant
And.
- [11:57]
Joe Salsihai
And it is about the fact that we all have a career brand. A lot of people hear career brand, and you're like, oh, God, I don't want a career brand. You know what? You have a career brand, and it probably sucks because you don't pay attention to it, no matter whether you want one or not. You don't. So why not? Why not? Make sure that you're putting your best foot forward. And she talks about. Lorraine talks about some little things. What we think about is little things. You and I were talking about a guest who's appeared on our shows before who's got a really crappy microphone, and she talks about when you're on these zoom calls. One way, Paula, just to make yourself different is to make sure you got a decent microphone, right?
- [12:33]
Paula Pant
Exactly.
- [12:34]
Joe Salsihai
It's a little tiny thing. Make sure that it's attractive behind you. When I spoke with her, recently, she had this background that cost her nothing. There was stuff from around her house, but it was attractively arranged in a way that was a nice background. And yet how many times you've been on a zoom call with people and they've got just garbage behind them or they haven't thought about it, they sound just absolutely horrible. These little things create friction.
- [13:00]
Paula Pant
Right.
- [13:01]
Joe Salsihai
And so between these tactical tips from somebody like Lorraine Lee and then Vanessa von Edwards and her ability to communicate effectively, I think are some of the soft skills I would just brush up on while I'm in this process.
- [13:15]
Paula Pant
Right. One of the tips that Vanessa Van Edwards gives is that there's actually documented research that shows that people trust you more if they can see your hands in the frame.
- [13:26]
Joe Salsihai
That's funny.
- [13:27]
Paula Pant
Well, and it's. It's a very visceral part of human psychology in which if you approach another person and you can't see their hands, you don't know if they're holding a weapon or not. And so there's a deep, innate part of our, like, reptilian brain that is innately, even at a subconscious level, more suspicious of somebody if we can't see their hands, and conversely, more trusting of someone if we can. And so, to the greatest extent possible, keep your hands in the frame. Talk with your hands, gesticulate with your hands. And so they've actually shown that the most liked TED talks, you know, if you look across all the TED talks that have ever been done and you try to find a pattern in the ones that are most liked, there's no other. Is it topic? No. Is it the age or the gender or the occupation of the speaker? No. Is it subject matter, which is distinct from topic? Because topic might be, you know, evergreen versus timely. Right. Is it subject matter? No. Like, there is no discernible pattern other than the most, like, TED talks to came from speakers who used a lot of hand gestures.
- [14:44]
Joe Salsihai
And now, for those of you not watching on YouTube, Paul and I ever since then have made sure that we're, like, up high with our hands.
- [14:51]
Paula Pant
Now I look like I'm landing an airplane.
- [14:55]
Joe Salsihai
For the rest of the show. Now we're gonna have our hands up there because it's all that we're thinking about. But you know what? It is a great thing to practice when I really want to become a better speaker. I started going to Toastmasters, and every time after a Toastmasters meeting, Paula, I spoke like this because I was so worried about my ums and ahs. And because of that, I still say ums. And ahs some, but not nearly as much as I used to, because even though it was wooden, immediately it got better. So using your hands, thinking about some of these things, practicing the soft skills, those are not just good with interviews. Those are good when it comes to making friends. And we talk about the power of connection and how important that is as people get older, when you're joining new groups, I mean, these are life skills. I hate that we call them soft skills because I think they're so important.
- [15:46]
Paula Pant
Right. Well. And you know, increasingly in the age of AI, the human skills are the ones that increasingly matter because what is the unique differentiator between a human and AI? It's our humanity that is what makes us unique and therefore becomes a valuable piece of our contribution. So you asked Pedro about coaches. So I want to highlight a couple of places where you can look. One is Federal Career Connection. It's an organization that specifically coaches federal employees that are making career transitions. There are also coaches that are specific to the tech industry. There are also, depending on what agency you work for, some agencies offer career coaching through their HR department to their employees at no cost. So that's something depending on what agency you're working for, something to check into. There are professional associations that you could look at, and there are really two branches of that. You could look at professional associations for government employees, or you could look at professional associations for tech focused workers. And I would do a combination of both. Because what I have found, when you're at the Venn diagram intersection of a couple of different industries, sometimes there are very different moods, dominant moods, dominant, like the zeitgeist of a given industry can be one way. And if you can counterbalance that by feeling the dominant mood of a different industry, you get kind of a healthier, more well rounded picture. So an example of this was in the 2010s, I would go to journalism conferences and then I would go to online content creator conferences. And the dominant mood was very different. And by virtue of having a foot in both worlds, I was able to understand both worlds much better and then find the unique Venn diagram intersection of where I could find a foothold there. Another option are alumni networks. So tap into alumni networks from wherever it was that you studied. Many of them have career coaching and then opm, Office of Personnel Management. They occasionally offer workshops that connect federal employees with career development specialists. There are resources there where that you can pursue as well. So there are a lot of resources, both in terms of finding a coach as well as in terms of finding leads that might be able to introduce you to the right person, because I agree with Joe. Ultimately, you don't want to be sending out resumes. You want to be invited to send your resume. That's when you know you've got a good shot. When somebody reaches out to you and proactively asks you to apply for a posted job, that's the position that you want to be in. But that comes from getting to know people, because at that stage, the resume is a formality rather than an icebreaker. Pedro, I want to close by applauding you for being so clear about your priorities, because that is the true afford anything philosophy. Be crystal clear about what matters to you and what doesn't matter to you. And I love that you are so clear about the priority that you're putting on. Spending time with your children, homeschooling your children, traveling with your children, of the long RV trips, going to national parks. That is a perfect example of how to live life with intention.
- [19:18]
Joe Salsihai
Well, it's funny. I mean, you're talking big picture. Let's talk a little picture on that same note, Paula, which is that when you live that way, where your North Star is so clear, it's much easier for people to collaborate with you. And what you're looking for is a new collaboration team who wants to live life the same way you're living life. You want to walk with these same people. And if you can walk into an interview and you can tell these people exactly what you're looking for and you can visualize it for them, it'll give the right employer the ability to see it as clearly as you do and to deliver it. A lot of employers, you know, they want to make sure that you have the work life that you really want. They know that they'll get more out of you for their mission, whatever it is, if they can help you get yours. So having that North Star, I think, is going to make it really, really easy for you to find who's in and who's out.
- [20:15]
Paula Pant
Right. So thank you, Pedro, for the question, and thank you so much for the compliment as well. I'm very happy that I've been able to refine your understanding of fire and financial independence and play any role in helping you live the life that is most true to you, to your North Star. Speaking of living a life that's true to you, our next caller wants to move overseas and finds that it's not just a passing want, as you'll hear her talk about it, is nearly a calling. It's where she feels most Alive. But it comes with a series of logistical questions. How should she handle that? We'll tackle that question next. Do you hear those sounds around me? So I'm recording this from Panama right now. I flew here this morning. I'm wearing quints at the moment. I actually flew here wearing quints. Why? Because it's stylish and it's comfortable. Why wouldn't I? In New York, it's cold. And so, as I've talked about quite a number of times, I'm often wearing quince sweaters. You can hear the sounds of Panama around me, by the way. I'm sitting out on a balcony in Panama City, Panama, wearing a quince T shirt. So, yeah, New York, I wear sweaters because it's still cold. I came here today with my luggage packed full of Quint T shirts. Comfortable, casual, super affordable. I've also got a quince. It's like a maxi dress. It's silk and it's a maxi dress. So I've got that for when I want to dress up. So I came here with a suitcase full of Quint's clothing. And by the way, Quint's, also speaking of suitcases, has premium luggage options and stylish tote bags. And all Quint's Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They're able to be so affordable because they partner directly with top factories. So they cut out the cost of the middleman and they pass the savings directly on to you and me. And they only work with factories that use ethical and responsible manufacturing practices. So you have the trifecta. You've got affordable, you've got ethical, and you've got high quality. For sweaters, I like cashmere. But right now, here in Panama, I'm wearing cottons, I'm wearing silks, I'm wearing just high quality clothing. See, you can hear the street noises. All right, I'm gonna get back to my vacation. But for your next trip, treat yourself to the luxe upgrades you deserve from quints. Go to quince.com Paula for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com Paula to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com Paula P A U L A When you're shopping online, do you ever notice that purple shop pay button? You'll see it on a lot of websites. So you want to check out, but your wallet or your credit card is in the other room. But there's this big purple shop button and it has all of your payment and shipping information saved and so you can just hit the button and it makes buying really easy. You know that button, right? The purple one? Well, that's Shopify and there's a reason that so many businesses use it and it's because Shopify makes everything easier from checkout to creating your own storefront. Shopify is the commerce platform behind 10% of all e commerce in the US ranging from household names like Gymshark and Mattel to brands that are just getting started. And Shopify gives you a leg up with hundreds of beautiful ready to go templates that you can use to express your brand. And you don't need to know how to code and you can tackle all of these important tasks in one place. Everything from inventory to payments to analytics so you can spread your brand's word with built in marketing and email tools and that iconic purple shop pay button. It's why Shopify has the best converting checkout on the planet. If you want to see less carts being abandoned, it's time for you to head over to Shopify. Sign up for your 1 month $1 per month trial period and start selling today at shopify.com Paula go to shopify.com Paula shopify.com Paula small business owners State Farm is there with small business insurance to fit your specific needs. Whether you're starting a new venture or growing an existing one, State Farm helps you choose the right coverage to protect what matters most. Working Working with a local State Farm agent helps you understand your coverage options, offering local support to help you achieve your goals. Focus on turning your passion into a thriving business. Knowing your insurance can change as your business grows. State Farm here to help you succeed with your business. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Our next question today comes from someone who wants to move to another country but has a few questions around the logistics. This question comes from Anonymous.
- [25:15]
Grace
Hi Paula, my name is Anonymous today because I've got a lot of unique questions. Maybe not unique. I'm about to sell my home which I own full outright and I'll be getting about $500,000 from that. I also have about $50,000 in a taxable brokerage account and I wanted to figure out what to do with this windfall of money because I am planning to leave the United States. I've sold everything that I own and I have just a small storage unit that's 5x5 with just legal documents and know a lifetime's worth of documents and photos and what have you And I just want to know what I can do as an American. And I'm also on SSDI where I get $1400 a month. I cannot work due to an autoimmune disease. I have flare ups quite often. I can travel and do things. However, I don't know when I'm going to get the flare ups. So it's just a lifestyle change. And another thing I notice when I'm outside of the U.S. i almost never get flare ups. It might have to do. My doctors have all surmised over the years because I've lived abroad most of my adult life. But I came back to sell my primary residence and that's it. And it's the only one I have left. And I do have a virtual mailbox so that that shows that I'm still, I still have an address in the United States. And so I've lived all around in Europe, South America, Asia, you name it. And I speak French, four languages, so I'm definitely fine. And I was also educated in Europe and that's good. So I have lots of little backups that I can do and work little side hustles if I need to, but I don't really. I live way below my means and I always have since I was 20 years old. I mean, I've saved up so much money and invested and I don't need material stuff. I like experiences and really good food and no to low stress. And that's my life goal is just to stay no and low stress. There was no such thing as no stress but low stress. And to me, living abroad is where I feel the most invigorated, the most free and the most relaxed and the most creative. So yes, given that, how can I set up my finances and brokerage accounts in that way? And also eventually I would like to get residency in another country and I'll have to prove that I'm making a certain amount of money per month, so wouldn't mind involving some dividend ETFs and stocks in there as well. So anyway, I hope that sums it up. Thank you.
- [27:57]
Paula Pant
Anonymous. Thank you for the question. Before I answer it, we've got to give you a name.
- [28:03]
Joe Salsihai
I'm thinking Paula, of a person who very famously was an American who moved overseas and ended up becoming a princess.
- [28:12]
Paula Pant
Meghan Markle.
- [28:13]
Joe Salsihai
Well, Meghan Markle, to be clear, became a princess and then said no thank you. Hard pass. Right? I mean, I think technically she's still a princess, but this person, actually, I'm thinking way back, a woman named Grace Kelly who became the Princess of Monaco. I think we should call her Grace.
- [28:32]
Paula Pant
Oh, Grace is a beautiful name. I've always loved that name. Grace, first, I want to commend you on being so clear about what it is you want. It's obvious to me from your question that you have a calling. And oftentimes when we talk about a calling, we talk about what you do, but there's also where you do it, right. You're called not just to a vocation or an occupation, but you're also called to a place. And some people spend their whole lives not knowing what place it is that they're called to be in. And it sounds as though you clearly know that. So I want to commend you for finding that answer because it's clear that you have found the where. That is true to you. Yeah.
- [29:13]
Joe Salsihai
And I think that's important, especially if you want to live the. You know, you're worried about stress, right. Knowing your where and exactly the type of lifestyle you want to live. I mean, that is a through line with both our callers today, right.
- [29:26]
Paula Pant
The fact that the flare ups don't happen when you're overseas. I mean, that to me speaks volumes as to, I don't know the exact reason for it, but I'm, I know hashtag science, Paula.
- [29:36]
Joe Salsihai
It's science.
- [29:38]
Paula Pant
I mean, and it could relate to the stress levels that she feels. Who knows? That's at least a possibility.
- [29:45]
Joe Salsihai
Well, we may not know why, but we know that's the solution. So that's our task. Paula. So where does she start?
- [29:50]
Paula Pant
Right. So, Grace, the couple of things, first of all, if you are interested in pursuing citizenship, there are a number of paths that you can take and importantly, a number of different companies that have specialties in a variety of paths. So for example, if you want to pursue citizenship through dissent, meaning if you have some type of ancestral connection to the country that you're moving to and you depending on the specific country that you're moving to, there are some countries that have policies that state that if you have ancestry or ancestral roots in that country, you may be able to qualify for citizenship based on that lineage, that heritage. And so if that is depending on what country you're moving to, if that is a path that you want to pursue, A, that's an option in some places, but not others. But B, more importantly, there are companies, there's one company in particular that I know of that recently started that helps you do that. And conversely, if you want to pursue citizenship in any other number of ways, whether it's through marriage or through a job, which it doesn't sound as though that's the path that you're going to take, but that's another route, or if it's through being an investor. There are some countries that will allow you citizenship if you have a certain amount of money that you're willing to bring there.
- [31:26]
Joe Salsihai
Well, that's what Cheryl and I, just a couple of days ago, had a phone call with a company doing nearly that. Paula. It's through home ownership and living in and having a residence in that country that you might be able to secure that.
- [31:40]
Paula Pant
Mm. And so these are all of the paths. And this is not even a comprehensive list, but we've just listed. What do we list? Descent, marriage, job investment, and homeownership. We just listed five possible routes to citizenship, not even a comprehensive list. So there are a lot of paths that you can take. And importantly, there are a number of companies that specialize in helping you navigate the very complex bureaucratic process of all of the paperwork, all of the applications, the forms, the proof. It's a huge administrative and bureaucratic nightmare. And there are companies that do this every day and specialize in it because you're going to have a learning curve since you're doing it for the first time. But this is their expertise, so they will be able to guide you. And that really speaks to Joe, something that you often talk about, which is ask who, not how.
- [32:36]
Joe Salsihai
It wasn't even a sales pitch. It was a great discussion. But that was what we were buying, possibly from this woman is the fact that she has negotiated this foreign government's process and system, something that we know nothing about, and I would be in YouTube hell about. And the cost of what they bring to the table is incredibly compelling because not only do I know it will get done, I know it gets done correctly if we decide that that's what we want to do.
- [33:06]
Paula Pant
When you say this woman, you mean the rep from the company.
- [33:08]
Joe Salsihai
Yeah, the rep from the company that we were. That we were talking to. Yeah. About buy land in this foreign country.
- [33:15]
Paula Pant
Right. And so that's what I would do. Grace, if you are interested in pursuing a path to citizenship in whatever country it is that you're moving to, and you didn't specify which country it is. And of course, every country has very different policies. But I would contact a company that specializes in routes to citizenship so that you then know what your array of options are, and then, importantly, have an advocate on your side as you start to navigate that very complicated bureaucratic process. You also asked if you should bias your investments towards dividend income in order to demonstrate sufficient earnings. Now, again, I don't know what country you're interested in moving to. Depending on the country, the specifics of the country, it's possible that dividend income might not even count because in some countries what they're looking for is a demonstration of earned income rather than dividend income or asset based income.
- [34:19]
Joe Salsihai
Well, and even if it does count, Paula, I was wondering about that. Would that dividend even move the needle?
- [34:25]
Paula Pant
Right, Exactly. That payout is likely going to be so low you would need a lot of investments to be able to generate a sizable return. Because in a lot of instances, a dividend payout is going to be 2% at best. Maybe 1 1/2 percent, maybe 1%.
- [34:43]
Joe Salsihai
I look at the average payout on the Vanguard Total Stock market index fund and that, you know, it depends, it goes up and down, but over long periods of time, you're generally just over 1%, close to one and a quarter. So if you try to migrate toward 2%. The thing that I worry about is you have to jettison the growth related assets in your portfolio.
- [35:06]
Paula Pant
Right.
- [35:07]
Joe Salsihai
Which means Grace sounds young. I don't know, Grace, how old you are, but hopefully there's a lot of years in front of you and you may need some capital appreciation and we don't want to get rid of that in your portfolio for some dividends that might not matter, A, because it's got to be earned income inside the country or B, because it just isn't going to be a lot.
- [35:26]
Paula Pant
Right, exactly. Because that's the thing. If you bias towards dividend oriented stocks, that, that comes at the cost of growth. Think about it. Who are the companies that are paying big dividends? They're the companies that don't see a need to heavily reinvest or they can't. Right.
- [35:44]
Joe Salsihai
I mean, I'm thinking about utility stocks. Right. Utilities are, they're landlocked. They. I provide a utility for this segment of the world, I can, I'm not going to take over some other utilities territory very easily. Railroads which have been, they're not building new railroad tracks, they're turning them into trails for communities because they're not using all the tracks. So any profit they make, they pay a dividend because they can't grow.
- [36:09]
Paula Pant
Right, exactly. And so that dividend income comes at the cost of growth and that cost compounds over the span of decades. And so think about ultimately what it's going to cost you in the form of opportunity cost if you bias your portfolio towards dividends and miss out on, you know, even 100 basis points over the span of 30 years is substantial.
- [36:38]
Joe Salsihai
Well, and if you're aiming there, because you know, Paula, how I like to begin with the end of mine, right. If I'm aiming at 100 basis points less, I'm looking at these companies that are going to grow so much slower. I think there's an interesting aspect of this as well. If she has to prove income and the income has to be from inside of the country, I mean, I love where she's coming from, that she wants it to be low stress, I think. And, and I don't know, but this is a great area, I think, for Grace to explore. Like what are some of those low stress things that you can do? That would be fun, right? That would be something that you enjoy doing while you're an expat while you're in this other country. And maybe it is helping other people acclimatize to the place where you are. Some of the same services, Paula, that we just talked about, helping people acclimatize. If she gets to know the government system of getting this done, maybe joining that crusade to help other people do the same thing that she did. You know, often these income requirements are not that high and if they're not that high, you know, some of the phenomenal people she talks about how she likes good food. Some of the tours that I've taken in Sevilla and in, oh my goodness, all the different food tours I've taken Vienna in Jordan and Amman. These wonderful food tours I've taken. Imagine her leading a food tour. Like how fun might that be?
- [38:13]
Paula Pant
That's a perfect combination of experiences and great food. The two things that she says she loves.
- [38:18]
Joe Salsihai
I would look at combining the things that she loves that will keep it low stress for her and at the same time bring in that income that she needs.
- [38:27]
Paula Pant
Right, exactly. You know, and it's one thing, you know, if you're starting a business that's different, but if you as a, a way of meeting people and getting some extra cash, want to work one shift a week, it great. It gets you out. It gets you plugged into the community.
- [38:45]
Joe Salsihai
And it gets you out and gets you into the community. Paula is far bigger than people think. There's a fantastic documentary that I just saw that fits all this research I've been doing lately. Maybe some of our listeners were at economy with me when I talked about this on the economy stage. The fact that what the happiest retirees know is that I need to join or die. And actually that's the name of this documentary called Join or Die which shows that we tend to isolate when we geo arbitrage. We also isolate when we retire. And that historically, in terms of longevity, risk has been a real problem. So getting to know the community is not this cute, nice thing. It is connecting you with a network of people, even if you're an introvert like I am. I know I play an extrovert on the radio, but I'm very much an introvert. And even for us, being a part of this bigger network at the place that we live is so, so, so important. The happiest retirees volunteer for three different organizations in a year. They also belong to one. And just imagine if she's leading these food tours. She gets to know these restaurateurs, she gets to know the people that are at food markets that maybe she's taking people around to like she becomes an integral part of the community because she's bringing them new customers. Like these people love her. And it is so, so, so much important than. Yeah, I just want to get to know people. I think a lot of time we say that we're like, yeah, I'll get to know people later. No, no, no, no, no, no. It is not a want to. It is. Science is showing us as we look into this thing called retirement how important it is to belong to the local community.
- [40:43]
Paula Pant
Right.
- [40:44]
Joe Salsihai
So maybe she should earn, earn money in the local area anyway.
- [40:50]
Paula Pant
Absolutely. Yes, exactly. And that's just another reason to not need to rely on dividends.
- [40:57]
Joe Salsihai
Yeah.
- [40:57]
Paula Pant
Which is something that's going to, you know, an over reliance on it is going to damage your portfolio anyway.
- [41:02]
Joe Salsihai
But also speaking of the portfolio, I think there is another aspect that we can widen out for people that aren't traveling. Because I think this is going to also apply to Grace, Paula and everyone else that in this time of tariffs, in this time of trade wars and we don't know what's coming around the next corner. I think that if Grace wants a low stress lifestyle, the thing that's going to create stress, I believe for anybody in the afford anything community is not tracking your expenses right now. I think actually taking the time to track your expenses is going to lower your stress by a ton. Because if we believe some of the numbers that are coming out of some of these smart think takes like one at Yale that I read about today, Yale believes that the average person in the United States is going to spend about $4,200 more per year buying the same stuff we bought last year in the next 12 months just because of the tariff impact on those things. So this is a time when back of the envelope plan, oh, I think I can make it right. Or, you know, I don't really need to look at my bank statement. This. I think you're gonna have a lot less stress in your life if you're actually on top of those numbers right now, at least for the next six months. To see how my spending is changing and I'm not getting any more for my money. I'm just running in place. This is definitely a time when I think for Grace talking about want to minimize the stress. I want to be on top of it.
- [42:34]
Paula Pant
So, Grace, in terms of personal finance, the basics are more important than ever in terms of the logistics of moving to the country. My recommendation is to engage with specialists who know how to navigate the very complex bureaucracy of what you're about to do. Because ask who, not how is a path towards getting specialists on your side to act as your advocates. And that is if you want to talk about low stress, that is a huge stress saver in terms of dividend stocks. Don't overweight towards them. It's not worth it. It's going to drag your portfolio. It'll create long term pain in your portfolio and it might not even be necessary or beneficial anyway.
- [43:22]
Joe Salsihai
Might not count.
- [43:23]
Paula Pant
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Depending on what country you're living in and get involved because that is not only likely to make you happier, but also likely to make you healthier as well, given how interconnected the two are. And I'm excited for you. I'm excited for this big adventure that lays ahead. It's both an adventure and a homecoming at the same time.
- [43:46]
Pedro
Yeah.
- [43:46]
Joe Salsihai
Grace already knows this, but she obviously she wants to be mindful of the benefit that she's receiving, the disability benefit. But Grace already knows what those guardrails are.
- [43:54]
Paula Pant
Right.
- [43:55]
Joe Salsihai
But those may not play nicely together and that's going to complicate things more than we can answer on a podcast anyway, Paula.
- [44:01]
Paula Pant
Right. Well, thank you for the question, Grace. Enjoy everything that lays ahead. Well, Joe, what are you up to these days? Where can people find you if they'd like to know more?
- [44:10]
Joe Salsihai
Oh, you're going to love this. We spoke recently to Kevin Evers, who is an editor at Harvard Business Review, and Kevin just wrote his first book. He's usually the person who's parsing through other people's stuff, but it is.
- [44:27]
Paula Pant
Is he the Taylor Swift guy?
- [44:29]
Joe Salsihai
He is the Taylor Swift guy.
- [44:31]
Paula Pant
Ye. I got a copy of his book.
- [44:33]
Joe Salsihai
We are doing a full week on the strategic genius of Taylor Swift. We are on Monday, OG And Doug and I doing a deep dive into the genius of Taylor Swift from all the different angles that we see. That sets up our interview with Kevin on Wednesday where we talk to him and dive into Taylor's early days and the things that we can get from her career. And then on Fridays, we'll have a roundtable episode. Although on this one, if you go back and find this, Paula was not on this one. The amazing Alyssa Mazes, who is a fantastic. The financial planner in the Miami area, joins us to be on Team Paula for the trivia. So maybe Paula won the trivia too. Who knows? So all Taylor Swift, a full week of the business. I love case studies, Paula. I love case studies of businesses. I love case studies so much. And to take somebody like Taylor Swift and to talk about her career, the financial stuff, the creativity and implementing that in your financial plan and your career life, there's so many nuggets we can learn from Taylor Swift, from Kevin Evers and the people at Harvard Business Review.
- [45:42]
Paula Pant
Wonderful. That sounds like an amazing discussion, especially for all the swifties out there, but also just for anyone interested in business.
- [45:49]
Joe Salsihai
Well, it is funny because OG And Doug are not swifties. And they can't quit talking about. They're like, you see the air? I mean, the errors tour. Even if you're not a swifty, you're like, that is a cultural movement. How does somebody create that?
- [46:01]
Paula Pant
Right.
- [46:02]
Joe Salsihai
By the way, the stamina it takes. I mean, there's everything from the time she spends in the gym to the choreography to deciding what to put on social media, what not to put on social media, how to show up, where to show up, who to let in her team, who not to let in her team. Like, there's so many lessons that we can all have. Even if you're just beginning your career.
- [46:21]
Paula Pant
Right.
- [46:22]
Joe Salsihai
It's good stuff.
- [46:23]
Paula Pant
Yeah, absolutely. The business acumen that she and her team have is world renowned.
- [46:32]
Joe Salsihai
What's cool with Kevin on Wednesday? Especially if you tune in for that. We talk about when she's 13 and 14 years old, just beginning, and how these early moves that she made early in her career. If you're early in your career, I highly recommend it because she made some great early moves that set up the huge things she's doing today.
- [46:53]
Paula Pant
Amazing. Well, thank you, Jo, for joining us today.
- [46:57]
Joe Salsihai
Well, thank you, Paula, for having me.
- [46:58]
Paula Pant
And thanks to all of you for being afforders. If you enjoyed today's episode, please do three things. First, sign up for our newsletter afford anything.com newsletter where we send special updates that you won't find anywhere else. Second, make sure you're following us in your favorite podcast playing app. And while you're there, you can leave up to a five star review. I would appreciate it if you did because those reviews are instrumental in, no pun intended, in helping us book amazing guests. Get it Taylor Instrument okay And and finally, chat with other members of our community@affordanything.com community completely, no cost, and it's a great way to connect with other people who have shared interests and shared values. Thanks again for tuning in. I'm Paula Pant. I'm Joe Salsihai and we'll meet you in the next episode.