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- [00:01]
A
Hey, Joe, have you ever heard that quote from John Lennon? Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans.
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B
Sure. Was that John Lennon?
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A
That was John Lennon.
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B
How about that?
- [00:12]
A
We're gonna talk about that in one of our answers today. There is this distinction between financial planning and reality. Expectations versus reality. All right, we're gonna dig into that today. We're also going to talk about debt payoff and we're going to get an update from someone who called a year ago. We're going to find out what's happened since and answer an additional question.
- [00:38]
B
Awesome.
- [00:40]
A
Welcome to the Afford Anything podcast, the show that knows you can afford anything, not everything. This show covers five pillars. Financial psychology, increasing your income, investing, real estate and entrepreneurship acronym FIRE with two eyes. Double I Fire. I'm your host, Paula Pan. I trained in economic reporting at Columbia and every other episode. Ish. I answer questions that come from you and I do so with my buddy, the former financial planner Joe Salsihai. What's up, Joe?
- [01:08]
B
How are you, Paula?
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A
I'm great. How you doing?
- [01:12]
B
Well, I had a conversation today that really bothered me. It was this guy was trying to sell me a coffin, you know, like for my funeral. And I told him that's the last thing I'm going to need. Oh.
- [01:26]
A
And with that, we will go to our first question, which comes from Brigham.
- [01:32]
C
When I married my wife, I used my life savings to pay off her credit card and student loan debt. Now she's a high earner with a college degree. I also earn a decent sum of money matching her salary through an extra 10 hours of overtime per paycheck. I was recently awarded 100% complete in total VA disability, which means $4,300 per month increasing when we have children. That also means a ton of other benefits that I get for the rest of my Life. We're now 23 and 25. Here's my plan. In August, we're going to purchase a home around the $500,000 range. I'm going to continue to work a ton of overtime while we pay it off aggressively on our basically triple income. Then mid next year, we're going to start trying for a baby. Once we've had two or three kids and they're all done breastfeeding, I want to quit my job and start being a stay at home father. At that time, my wife will be making a lot more money than me. So I believe it makes so much more sense to have me as the stay at home parent instead of her. And we want there to be a stay at home parent. I'm going to be doing all the chores. I'm going to be cooking, cleaning. My kids are going to have optimal nutrition. I'm going to homeschool them. They're going to have regular physical exercise. I have extreme standards for my role as a stay at home parent. Before 9 and after 5, my wife isn't going to have to lift a finger. Once the youngest child is done with high school, I'm going to return to work until the house is paid off. Given that timeline, we should easily be able to retire 30 years from now. Our kids will probably also pay us rent at that time too. A small rent because it's just a bedroom. But their college is free and they get $1,400 a month in stipend because of my benefits. Once I got out of the Navy when I was in, I did a semester of college and decided it wasn't for me. And during that time I took on the stay at home husband role because my wife was working and I was only doing easy college stuff. So I did all the cooking, all the cleaning, all the chores. And when I went back to work, she remarked that she missed all the things that I did around the house and she wished that I could go back. I don't need you to talk my wife into agreeing with it. I just need you to help me decide if it's reasonable and try and find a way that this can work for both of us. Right now we make about $156,000 a year after taxes. That's pretty evenly split between my income, her income, and my VA disability. But that's definitely going to be going up once she starts earning more. Thank you for your time, Brigham.
- [04:10]
A
First of all, thank you for your service. Second, I absolutely love this plan. I love the way you've laid it out. I love the ethos, the responsibility, the vision, the foresight. I want to commend you at 23 and 25 for being so responsible so forward looking for building such an incredible foundation for your life ahead. That said, for the sake of stress testing the plan, because that is what we do, let's stress test this plan. Let's look for hidden risks, hidden unknown unknowns.
- [04:51]
B
I think it's a great place to begin because when you start pulling apart things, the one thing we definitely that I at least won't pull apart at all, Paula, is his ability to get granular on what the goal really is. Because this is the part that is for me was always the most difficult to eek out of clients and it's so much easier to plan your money when it's a granular goal. There can be a tendency to over optimize if you get too focused on one set goal at one set time. And we want to ward against that. So that's something that we're going to need to make sure that you've got flexibility. But the fact that he is so granular means that we can now start putting some numbers. So I think the, the first thing I would do would be. You said that retirement is not your exact words, but a layup in 30 years. Right. I should easily, we should easily be able to retire in 30 years. What is that number? What is that going to cost? And we already know, by the way, the number that we put in front of us is going to be wrong because things are going to change. But, but we also know directionally, if you just live a similar lifestyle to the lifestyle that you have now, like what does that cost? What does that mean? How much money do I need to set aside? You can get that ball rolling in the background and make sure that that 30 year retirement is locked down immediately by putting at least that, you know, minimum viable retirement number aside.
- [06:24]
A
There are two question marks that I have in my head. One that is related to the house and the other that's related to the unknown unknown. So let's start with the house. Because a $500,000 house with $156,000 income, which soon will go down to about $100,000 income in the next few years, that is an expensive house relative to the income level. I love the plan of aggressively paying it off prior to paying down as much as you can prior to when the kids are born. I think that's a great idea. But I also want to flag, prior to when the kids are born, you're going to have two competing goals. One is to aggressively pay the house down. The other is to build a big emergency fund, especially as homeowners with kids on a single income. Even though there's also that disability benefit, there's just still the need for an emergency fund. Right. Both a house and kids introduce elements of unplanned expenses. So I want to see, in addition to aggressive house pay down, I want to see that emergency fund built out. That'll also help lay the foundation.
- [07:38]
B
And I think it lays the foundation for what your second thought is. If I'm reading the room, I think I know where you're going next.
- [07:45]
A
Yeah. So the thing that came to mind right away is, and I want you and your wife to sit down and have this discussion. What would happen if one of your parents develops dementia and needs help? What would happen if one of your children has a developmental disability? What would happen if one of your children is born blind or deaf?
- [08:11]
B
What would happen if nature decides kids aren't in the picture Right.
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A
And then there's a need for IVF or adoption? What is the plan for dealing with all of these things that could come up in the course of the next 30 years? And this is where life is. What happens when you're busy making other plans? Because car accidents, illness, cognitive decline, natural
- [08:43]
B
disasters, even everyday things. I mean, it doesn't even have to be that big. Paula. It could be his spouse is a high income earner. What happens if she gets downsized for no real big reason? Like what happens then where the income dynamic changes as well? You're talking about the expense dynamic. The income dynamic might not work out the way that he hopes. I just think there's a lot of life that's going to happen.
- [09:08]
A
Mm.
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B
You definitely want the plan to be flexible enough. When we're planning on the kids that we don't have yet paying us rent when they get out of high school. I found that endearing. But I also find it to be a little bit of a cautionary tale. Like, whoa, man, we gotta get there, we gotta get there. We got a long road to go before we get to that spot. I like his thinking and I like the fact that he's thought about it early like that is amazing. But there's a long way between now and your kid paying your rent. I did have a note, by the way, thinking of the income dynamic as well, which is he mentioned that, you know, when the youngest leaves the house that he go back to work. You know, the danger. And anybody who's been a stay at home parent knows this is that you don't want to let your qualifications atrophy over time because your skills, even if you do a great job of keeping them up the market, will undervalue your participation when you go to get back in. So to find ways to keep your LinkedIn profile, to keep networking, to stay out there, to, you know, maybe even on the side do some part time work just to keep in the game and to keep your resume alive, could go a long way to your reintroduction into the workforce later on.
- [10:33]
A
Yeah. Just to keep your skills sharp. Yeah, there was a two year period of time that I, I took off because I was traveling and during that time I worked about five hours a week. You know, it wasn't big, it wasn't anything. But it meant that when I came back in, I could point to freelance work that I had done. You know, I could point to like, freshly published articles. I had a network of editors that I'd been talking to. And again, five hours a week, right? That's one hour a day, Monday through Friday. Even just that little, it kept me in the game. It kept me circulating and emailing with people and it kept me current, it kept my skills current. So I think for any stay at home parent who plans on reentering the workforce later, doing something that keeps you current, keeps you networked, that allows you to point to projects that you've recently done, you know, that helps improve the odds of a successful re entry.
- [11:36]
B
You know, what I really like about his plan that I want him to be mindful of is he is really doing a great job of creating free cash flow by continuing to work overtime now, by making the best use of the disability benefit as it arrives, by protecting his spouse's income. That free cash flow number over time. Talking about life happening, there is a tendency to slowly get on the hamster wheel of life, which means I add a little subscription there. We go out to eat, we a little bit more often than a little bit more often. And you know, what's, what's this little extra expense? Before you know it, Paula, you have become far more bougie than you ever intended. And then you're in the unenviable position where a lot of people have been that probably are hanging out with us, listening, where now you got to cut back and it's easier to protect it from the beginning and never spend it than it is to have regrets and have to cut back later. I feel like he's doing a great job of that now, and he might recognize that he might not. But protecting that free cash flow is the key to making all of these dominoes, I think, happen over time that he's talking about.
- [13:00]
A
Yeah, I don't see that happening with him because he sounds both disciplined and values oriented and, and I think what's important about being values oriented and Brigham, I really want to commend you on the sense that I get from the message that you've left is you have a strong sense of what your values are and you are aligning your time and your money and your energy and your attention with those values. I want to commend that because so long as you are values driven, then you have a why, you have a very purposeful why, and Generally, I find when people have a strong why around their money, they tend to stick with it. They tend to stick with the plan because the why is so strong. When there isn't a strong why, when it's like, I guess I should save more, but I don't really know why, then money can kind of flow out the door faster. So a strong why matters. And it sounds like he and his wife have that. And I don't mean to be a downer with the elderly parents, sick siblings, but there are plenty of people who are in those situations who will tell you, we never thought it would happen to us.
- [14:12]
B
It's also more of a financial planner mindset to prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
- [14:20]
A
Right.
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B
You know, and then if it never comes, to just live a life of gratitude that we had good day after good day after good day.
- [14:30]
A
Right. And it goes back to why. I think that the twin goals between now and when the children are born, the two major goals. One is that house pay down, but really that's the reason I emphasize the emergency fund so much. It will build that flexibility, especially when they have two to three kids and they're supporting that on one income. A big emergency fund will be a huge help in that context. I've said this before, but just to emphasize it, my biggest concern is the value of the home relative to your income level. Right now you're making 156,000. When you go down to just one income, one income plus the VA Disability Payment, you'll be at that time making around 100,000, assuming that you're making then what you are making now. And so $100,000 total household income with a $500,000 home. You know, there is a broad rule of thumb of like, the value of your home should be no greater than five times your annual income. That rule of thumb is the maximum. The rule of thumb is that the ideal ratio should be that your annual household income times 2.5 to 3. A range of between 2.5 to 3 is the ideal home price. So for $100,000 annual income, the home price should be 250 to $300,000. That rule of thumb reflects the ideal. And then the other corollary to that, no greater than five times that reflects the rule of thumb for the max. Now, I'm guessing you're probably going to get a VA loan. VA loans generally allow a debt to income ratio of 41%, but sometimes they go higher, especially if you have residual income. And so this isn't a question about qualifying for the home. I believe that you'll qualify for the home. But of course there's a distinction between what do you qualify for versus what can you shoulder in your budget over the long term. That's just a generic rule of thumb. And so you would be right there at that maximum. And I know that the plan is for your wife's income to accelerate, so hopefully by that time she would be making more and so your total household income would be higher. But again, we don't know what the future of jobs are going to be. So you want to have a contingency for what would happen in case she isn't making as much as you had planned on, or in case she is and that lasts for a few years and then there's a sudden layoff and then there's a six month or eight month gap before she finds a different job. Brigham, thank you for the question. Thank you for your service to this country. Again, I want to applaud you for being having such a good plan in place. I love the plan.
- [17:31]
B
I do too. I can't wait to see what happens next.
- [17:34]
A
Yeah. All right. The next people that we're going to hear from also make about the same amount. They make 155,000 a year and their bills are around 84,000 a year. We're going to talk through more of their numbers. We're going to talk through their savings balance, their Roth ira, their credit card debt, their student loans. We're gonna talk through all of those numbers and figure out what the plan is for them. That's coming up next. When your schedule gets busy, it can be really hard to eat healthy. You can't get dinner from the drive through three nights a week. Butcherbox can help they deliver premium clean protein that's responsibly raised. We're talking free range organic chicken, wild caught seafood, crack crate free pork, 100% grass fed beef. Because when it comes to fueling your body, quality isn't extra, it's everything. Clean whole protein means better support for strength, metabolism and that steady all day energy we've been chasing. I'm a seafood lover, so in my box I'm picking wild caught seafood and free range organic chicken. And I should note, Butcherbox is a certified B corp, which means they're committed to doing things right from how animals are raised to how their team supports workers and reduces environmental impact. And every box ships free. As an exclusive offer, new listeners can get their choice between chicken breast or top sirloin for a year or ground beef for life. Plus $20 off when you go to butcherbox.com Paula that's right, your choice of chicken breast or top sirloin for a year or ground beef for life. Plus $20 off your first box and free shipping always. That's butcherbox.com Paula don't forget to use our link so they know we sent you butcherbox.com Paula in business, there's no room for guesswork. Every shipment matters. Every deadline counts. When you're trying to keep operations running smoothly, the last thing you need is uncertainty. That's why reliability is at the core of USPS Ground Advantage. From the moment your package is first scanned in, it moves through a secure nationwide network, aiding in a timely and accurate delivery. You get near real time tracking so you can keep up with your shipments. And with affordable upfront pricing, there are no hidden fees or surprise surcharges to throw off your cost sheets. It all adds up to predictable deliveries you can depend on, because knowing your logistics are handled lets you focus on everything else your customers, your team and the future you're building. Visit usps.com groundadvantage to start shipping with confidence. USPS Ground Advantage We MEAN business
- [20:33]
C
Mark
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A
your calendars because from April 25 through April 27, you can score the best deals in all things home. It is Wayday at Wayfair. It's all on sale during Waydate. We're talking 80% off with free shipping. So when I say all things home, I'm talking things you need for your kitchen, bedroom, bathroom, outdoor space, living room. You name it, they've got it. Outdoor furniture, rugs, patio, decor, bedding, bath, the kids room, your home, office. They've got stuff for every style. And it's all on sale during weigh day, April 25th through 27th. I have many things from them. I've got a daybed, very multifunctional. I've got a bunch of shelving. I bought some chairs for my parents when they moved into their new home. And Wayday is the sale to shop the best deals in home where talking up to 80% off with fast and free shipping on everything. Head to Wayfair.com April 25th through the 27th to shop Wayday. That's W-A-Y-F A I R.com Wayfair Every style, every home. Welcome back. Our next question comes from jvr.
- [21:56]
D
Hi Paula, My husband and I are looking for your guidance on how to best balance our current debt with our Savings goals. We're 37 and 38 years old and we both got started in Our careers later in life. We have a combined annual gross income right now of around $155,000. Our fixed monthly costs, including rent and all bills, is around $7,000. Currently we have $75,000 in a high yield savings account, 50,000 in a Roth IRA, and 10,000 in credit card debt at a 16% interest rate. I also have around $61,000 of student loans. They're actually four separate student loans. One $13,000 loan at around 5%, one 18,000 at around 4%, one 11,000 at around 6%, and one 18,000 at around 5%. We've been saving just to have an emergency fund and for a potential down payment on a home one day. So we're questioning if it's more efficient to use our cash to clear our debts. Specifically, should we pay off our credit card debt? Should we put some of our liquid cash toward my student loans, or should we keep that capital liquid? Since we're both in the Bay Area, in California, what is a safe amount of cash to keep accessible before putting the rest toward debt or investments? We're hoping to find higher salary roles, but we want to make sure that our current foundation is optimized. What would you recommend as our first move? Thank you so much, jvr.
- [23:37]
A
Thank you for the question. First of all, you are in a good spot. You and your husband make a good amount of money. You have strong savings. You have a strong Roth ira. The thing that I want you to prioritize first, and this is going to come as a shock to no one, is that credit card, the credit card with the 16% debt. And my recommendation would be that you pull the 75. You've got $75,000 in a savings account right now. I would pull $10,000 out of that and just pay off the credit card in one fell swoop.
- [24:13]
B
I would, too. But there's another step to that, Paula, that I want to caution, which is what we need to examine is what created the credit card debt because we can pay it off and then maybe it comes back again. So we have to get to the root of what created that in the first place. Is it. We don't have a good system and it just popped up. Did we have an emergency that happened and we didn't want to take the money out of the emergency fund because we thought it was there for the house payment or whatever it is. And we want to make sure that we, that we actually look at the root of the problem. Otherwise, what I have seen is, is that people will pay off credit Card debt. And then six months later it's there again and they pay it off again and it's back and it's there and it's again. So we really gotta deal with the root of the problem, not just pay off the credit card debt. What do you think about the student loans?
- [25:11]
A
My first thought, you know, there is loan consolidation where this can all get packaged into one loan rather than four separate loans. I don't really know if that would be of value or not.
- [25:23]
B
I don't think so. I don't. I think the interest rate and consolidation law might be a little higher than what she has right now. Yeah, it might help payment if she configures that into maybe one longer loan. But do we want to stretch out the payment?
- [25:39]
A
Not necessarily, no.
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B
I look at the 6% loan and I go, maybe, maybe.
- [25:46]
A
Yeah, there are two 6% loans.
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B
Yeah, I think those are in the, you know, maybe here's, here's the thing gives me consternation, Paula. That makes me go, yeah, probably not. Is this house goal, because if we retire those student loans, that's great. It's great for cash flow, but then we got to do like a crossover point of how long then do we save back into the high yield savings account to get the cash right back? Because, man, that, you know, the down payment money is, is something that I think we need to respect. And these loans aren't at egregious interest rates.
- [26:25]
A
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. The student loans are all reasonable interest rates if they end up purchasing a home. I mean, right now home mortgage rates are around 6%. So.
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B
Yeah, I want to talk more about the time frame on that. If this is, you know what, it's six or seven, eight years away. And if we do, we do. If we don't, we don't. Then let's start cutting down the student loans, Grab that cash flow, have that cash flow go into a down payment fund so that you're able to get that back in place. But I, but I don't love it.
- [27:01]
A
Yeah. You know, I might do the opposite. I might keep the student loans. So, I mean, definitely get rid of the credit card debt. To me, that one is a no brainer. But the student loans, given that they all have reasonable interest rates and given that they all have currently an interest rate that is equal to or less than what a mortgage rate would be. If there is a goal to buy a home, I would want to bring forward the home buying goal to be as close to the present as possible. Given that home prices in the Bay area are only going to accelerate or likely. I shouldn't say only. We never know what the future holds. But there is a high probability that home prices. And I assume when you say bay area, I assume you mean the San Francisco Bay area and not the Tampa Bay area. If it's the Tampa Bay area, it's actually a great buyer's market right now. And there's a lot of Grand Traverse
- [27:56]
B
Bay or Hudson Bay. Not Hudson Bay.
- [28:00]
A
No, I'm speaking specifically about central Florida, because if it is, you know, central Florida, there's so much home construction right now. You know, there are two pockets of the country. One is Austin, Texas area. The other is central Florida, that whole swath from Tampa through Orlando through Melbourne, where there is so much construction happening that there is downward pressure on home prices. So if she is in the Tampa Bay area, then I wouldn't be pulling forward the home buying goal. Then I would be saying, you know what it's. I mean, you could buy now, you could buy later. I think prices are going to be reasonable no matter what. But if it's a San Francisco Bay area where there isn't a lot of home building happening and there's continual pressure on prices to rise, then buying sooner is better than buying later.
- [28:48]
B
Yeah, I'm not a fan either. I wanted to bring it up that the six percents are the ones that. That made me go. But still. No, I'm with you. I think. I think not. The home goal is what I really want to talk about. More like that is I'd want to be more specific on what it is. And it sounds like the goal is not specific right now. And that might not be, Paula, because of. Of. I don't want to buy a house now. It could be based on job instability. Right. We might move.
- [29:23]
A
It could be any number of factors.
- [29:26]
B
Yeah. And certainly if it's job instability, we don't want to buy a home. But just because the cost structure of purchasing a home is a lot of cost upfront.
- [29:37]
A
Well. And they can get an FHA loan with as little as 3.5% down.
- [29:42]
B
Well, I'm glad you brought that up because I was thinking that anyway, how much of this money are they truly going to need?
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A
Right.
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B
You'll want to look at the payment versus the best use of cash.
- [29:53]
A
But let's just run hypothetical numbers. If they go with an FHA loan, 3.5% down, that would be a down payment of 24,500. I want to add in some more money for fees, closing costs, title insurance for moving Et cetera. So let's just round it up to $30,000. Okay, so let's park $30,000 as the goal number for buying this property. And then let's also take a look at. They said that they are prioritizing an emergency fund. Their expenses are 7,000amonth. So if they want an emergency fund that covers six months worth of expenses, we're talking 42,000. So total savings goal then would be 42,000 plus 30,000, that's 72,000. They've got that right now. And even if they take 10,000 out of the high yield savings and put it towards the credit card debt, so now they've got 65,000 left over, they're pretty darn close to having a six month emergency fund plus the down payment on a property, assuming they can get a property that they like for around $700,000.
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B
Well, I love your optimism. I do. I do know that the people at Home Depot knew me on a first name basis right after I bought my house with all these unexpected one time.
- [31:17]
A
Right. Although you bought a single family home is a lot more upkeep than I'm imagining a one bedroom condo. Like I'm imagining 600 square feet one bedroom condo. Okay. And condos are going to have a lot less upkeep.
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B
Sure. Right.
- [31:32]
A
I agree. Single family homes. Forget it. You're just sending your paycheck directly to Home Depot.
- [31:40]
B
I did feel like, you know, you're the regular at the local bar. Joe.
- [31:44]
A
Yeah.
- [31:45]
B
Good to see you again. I did ask the checkout person the third time I was there in the same afternoon. I said, do I get any type of frequent flyer miles? This turns out the answer was no.
- [31:59]
A
Yeah, yeah, I agree. I was, I was like, why do I even get paid? Like why, why, why don't people just send the check directly to Home? Why am I the middleman?
- [32:09]
B
Just send the invoice.
- [32:10]
A
Yeah, just send it directly to Home Depot. But again, with a condo, you're not responsible for the, the maintenance and upkeep of the exterior.
- [32:19]
B
No. You might change furnishings though. I mean, you're right, it's not going to be the egregious cost that I had envisioned. But still, I think it's cool that you can be out of this and be close to having a reasonable emergency fund. Still, it's great.
- [32:36]
A
Yeah. Well, and if they were to buy this, this one bedroom, 600 square foot condo that I've just put them in this imaginary, I don't even know what kind of home they're looking for.
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B
I just know they are now looking for a 600 square foot condo.
- [32:54]
A
But if they were to buy that, then of course the emergency fund goal would change because their monthly expenses would change. Their monthly expenses would no longer be 7,000amonth. So whatever that house payment is the delta between their current rent payment versus their new mortgage payment, that delta would have to get added to their monthly expenses which would then get multiplied by six in order to come up with the new emergency fund goal. What's cool is that using this completely hypothetical property value that I've made up and using their current expenses, they are actually very close to having a six month emergency fund and having adequate down payment for a property and having that credit card debt paid off. I think where this comes back to is, Joe, neither, neither you nor I are anxious for them to pay off the student loans.
- [33:56]
B
No. And that's why I brought it up was because I wanted them to hear us out loud talk through the why of not doing that. And you know where marginally you caught my eye with those six percents for a moment. But final analysis, there's other things.
- [34:16]
A
Yeah, I considered it also. I did. I looked at particularly the loan that's $11,000 at 6%. And my brain immediately went, all right, that's the smallest loan balance at the highest interest rate. So it fits the Dave Ramsey snowball method of attacking the one with the smallest balance. And it also fits the avalanche method of attacking the one with the highest interest rate. Like if there was one that you would wipe out, it would be that one.
- [34:45]
B
Well, and there's two factors, right? There's the balance and the cash flow. And it's a low cost at this point to grab that cash flow. It's the lowest cost of all them. It's not necessarily 11,000 is not necessarily low cost, but it's the lowest cost cash flow grab to make things easier on the month to month money game.
- [35:07]
A
Yeah. So if there was one student loan to pay off, it would be that one. But between the two goals, if you do want to buy something, I would, I would move buying property closer to the present.
- [35:21]
B
And specifically, specifically a 600 square foot
- [35:25]
A
condo, assuming they're in the San Francisco Bay and not in Tampa Bay.
- [35:31]
B
And if we talk about this long enough, Paula will tell you exactly which one to buy or excuse me, not to buy, that you're going too high.
- [35:42]
A
Well, thank you JVR for the question. Please call us back and let us know what you end up buying. And it better be no, it's. They're going to call us back and tell us they're actually in Tampa Bay.
- [35:55]
B
Yeah, that's right.
- [35:55]
A
Yeah, that's.
- [35:56]
B
No, they're in Hudson Bay.
- [35:58]
A
That's what's going to happen. I'm serious about Central Florida. They are doing so much construction there that it's softening all of the home prices. That's bad news if you're a seller because it means that your home values just aren't rising and in fact they're falling slightly from where they were a year ago. Bad news if you're a seller, but it's great news if you're a buyer because not only is there downward pressure on prices, but it looks like that's going to stay. So if anybody's looking to buy a home, Central Florida, another reminder, there is
- [36:30]
B
no real estate market. It's local. It's local.
- [36:34]
A
Melbourne, Florida, my goodness. If you want to own property, that's the place for a personal residence, for a primary personal residence.
- [36:43]
B
I'm headed to central Florida to give a talk maybe about the time that this comes out.
- [36:48]
A
Oh, cool.
- [36:49]
B
I'll get to see it firsthand. Paula.
- [36:51]
A
Nice.
- [36:51]
B
I'll be at the villages. I've never been to the villages.
- [36:53]
A
Joe's gonna come back with a house.
- [36:55]
B
That's right. I've never been to the villages. Heard a lot about it.
- [36:59]
A
I heard it takes a village.
- [37:00]
B
It takes a. Apparently a huge village. Takes a huge, huge village.
- [37:04]
A
All right. Well, we are next going to hear an update from Elizabeth. Elizabeth called in episode 11. At the time, she and her husband were deciding whether to buy more investment properties or whether to focus on paying them off. They were also trying to figure out what to do about a car loan. So we're going to hear an update from that. That's coming up next. This episode is brought to you by indeed.
- [37:34]
C
Stop waiting around for the perfect candidate.
- [37:37]
A
Instead, use Indeed sponsored jobs to find the right people with the right skills fast. It's a simple way to make sure your listing is the first candidate. C. According to Indeed data, sponsored jobs have four times more applicants than non sponsored jobs. So go build your dream team today with Indeed. Get a $75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com podcast terms and conditions. Appreciate welcome back. Our final question and update today comes from Elizabeth.
- [38:14]
E
Hi Paul and Jo. This is Elizabeth from episode 611 with an update and a follow up question. Quick recap. My husband and I were deciding whether to acquire investment properties first or pay them off before buying more. We were also trying to determine when to pay off our car loan. We ended up following Paula's advice and shortly after the episode aired we bought our third property and we paid off our car loan a few months later. So thank you both for breaking down our options. So clearly here's my next question. Your advice was to buy all of our properties before paying them off, but we are now reconsidering our investment location. We currently invest out of state but we would prefer to self manage closer to where we eventually live. Reasons being we wouldn't have to pay a property manager. We could cut back on property taxes and call me crazy but I actually enjoy the advent of being a landlord. The challenge is that my husband retires from the military in about five years and we're not sure where we will end up. We live in a high cost area now and we're hoping to move somewhere more affordable but there is a chance we stay here due to work opportunities. So how should we make the most of the next five years? Should we one wait to buy our fourth property until we know where we'll settle? 2. Should we keep investing in our current out of state location because at least we know what to expect? 3. Should we pay off our existing properties while we wait? Or 4 should we save up multiple down payments over the next five years so that we're ready to purchase when the time comes? Thanks again for your guidance and I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
- [39:55]
B
Elizabeth, I absolutely love your question and congratulations on the strides that you made. I do not offhand remember what advice I gave you and I'm sad that you took Paula's advice over mine, but we'll let that go.
- [40:09]
A
Actually, we have their original question and a link to the original answer in our show notes. If you watch the YouTube video, it starts at the 41 minute and 23 second mark so you can find the show notes@affordanything.com episode 704. That's where you can find the original question and original answer.
- [40:31]
B
I definitely have some feelings about this Paula and again thank you to your husband for his service and five years to go and the world changes for you. And I think that that piece of information, Paula, more than anything cements what my feeling is about Elizabeth and her husband's situation.
- [40:53]
A
What is it Joe?
- [40:54]
B
Well, I look at the different options that she is considering. Do we wait to buy our fourth property? The answer for me just based on her preference of being local and I get why she wants to be local. I don't get why she wants to be a landlord. You are crazy.
- [41:13]
A
Now I get it. I get it. If I didn't have have other projects going on, I would totally be. I'd be all in on that, too.
- [41:20]
B
I get it, too. I just thought it was a fun turn of phrase when she's like, call me crazy. I like it, so I'll call you crazy. I don't like it, but I do see why people like it. And certainly I've talked about him a lot. But, you know, my son really, really likes it and I love seeing his enthusiasm. But waiting to buy our fourth property. Yes. Because of your preference to have it local, keep investing in our current out of state location. I'm wondering what that means. I don't know what that means, Paula. Does that mean putting more money into the property, developing it more like. I don't know what that phrase means.
- [41:59]
A
I assume keep investing in the current out of state market means acquiring more
- [42:05]
B
properties, buying a new property. Sure.
- [42:07]
A
Okay.
- [42:08]
B
It seemed like she was specific to the one that she was talking about earlier in the question, but I don't know. And I bet that you're right there. Pay off existing properties. I don't like that option and I don't like it specifically because so much is going to change five years from now. And I think locking up money in a place where it's difficult to get to, the big thing any real estate investor will tell you is liquidity is the real estate Achilles heel. And so anything that gives you less liquidity at this particular juncture, you know, seven years from now, making that move. Yeah. Because you're probably much more established. You know what the next five years probably are going to look like. You've got a much bigger clear roadmap. Right now there's so much fog I don't like in the fog. Putting money into places where I'm going to have trouble getting the money out. So saving up multiple down payments for me makes by far the most sense. Wow.
- [43:17]
A
Joe, I hate to say this, but we actually agree. Oh, I, I hate it when that happens.
- [43:25]
B
So annoying.
- [43:26]
A
I actually, I agree with the conclusion, but for slightly different reasons. But I don't want to cut you
- [43:31]
B
off for suboptimal reasons.
- [43:32]
A
Probably so, yeah. Same conclusion, different reasons, but please continue.
- [43:37]
B
Let's do it. No, that's all I had. That was it.
- [43:40]
A
The reason that I like, you know, Joe talked about cash flow and cash flow management and the fact that your husband is going to be retiring in five years and when that, you know, that means five years from now, everything's going to change and you want to be in a strong Cash position for that. This kind of reflects the first question from Brigham. The reason that I emphasized it in emergency fund with him is whenever life is going to change, you want to be in a very strong cash position because changes in life bring about unexpected expenses. And so the more cash you can have on hand for life changes or life transitions, the better. So that's Joe's reasoning. Mine is same conclusion but for different reasons. It's the fact that you want to self manage properties. You've been in the game long enough that you know that you enjoy property management. You enjoy being a landlord, your husband is about to retire. Like you know you'll have the time, you have the inclination, you have the enjoyment of the process. All of the ingredients are in place for you to be the active hands on property manager. And so I want to see you acquiring new properties in the place where you're going to live. Because if you want to, to do that property management yourself, if that's what lights you up and clearly it does. And I get that, like it's fun, I think it's fun. If that's what lights you up, then, then I want to see you buy those properties in the place where you live. And since you don't know what place that's going to be, wait for five years, decide where you're going to live and then be positioned to be able to buy a bunch of rental properties in wherever that location ends up being. As long as it's not New York City. Don't do it in New York City.
- [45:32]
B
Okay, fine. Paula, your reasoning's pretty good too.
- [45:37]
A
Yeah, so same conclusion for different reasons. Like my reason is more career focus, life focus, lifestyle focus. Joe, your reason is cash flow management focus.
- [45:48]
B
Yeah, but I would disagree with that because I think mine also blends into yours. When you have uncertainty around life, around career, around change, free cash flow wins the day. Right? It makes it easier for you to make the transition. The more stuff you're locked into, the harder it's going to be to make that transition. So I feel like mine, mine is the precursor to yours, AKA probably better because it's, it's the, the building block to get to your rationale.
- [46:20]
A
Okay, so don't focus on paying off your existing properties. Don't acquire new properties in your current out of state market. Do there, there's sort of, there are two options that she talked about that are quite similar. She said should we wait to buy a fourth property until we know where we're going to live long term? And then she also said or do we prioritize saving multiple down payments? I think just save the money and once you know where you're going to live long term at that time you can make a, a game day decision based on how much money you have saved and what properties are available and how much they cost. And we're not going to know any of that until we know where you're going to live. As you said, you currently live in a high cost area. You might stay there, you might not. You might move to a different high cost area, you might move to a mid cost area. So the question of use this money for a fourth property versus a fourth, fifth, sixth property, that's not a decision you need to make right now, that's a decision you can make in five years once you know the location. In the meantime, for the next five years, just save the cash, build that
- [47:36]
B
fund so that you're able to move with wherever the. What was the line from Bruce Lee? So you can be like water. I love that line, Paula. So you can be like water and flow wherever is the best place.
- [47:51]
A
Perfect. Well, Elizabeth, thank you for the question. Thanks to both you and your husband for your service. Being a military spouse is an incredible act of service. Thanks to both of you. Joe, we did it again.
- [48:07]
B
What great questions. I like the planning, I like the thoughtfulness. I like the fact that people are looking years into the future. I mean In Elizabeth's case, five years from now, in JVR's case, looking at the possibility of a house on the horizon, which colored our viewpoint on what to do when paying off debt, which I think is right. And then in Brigham's case, like planning way in the future, really mapping out the road that he's in, his family are going to head down. It's really exciting to see people do that because as you know Paula, I think it's so much easier to know what to do with your money when you begin with the goal. It's so much easier, right? Not only is it easier, you'll make fewer mistakes. You won't accidentally sell at the wrong time, you won't panic, you won't. It's because of that phrase that you used earlier because it's values based, right? When it's all based on your values, then the investment is just a tool. You're not looking to fomo more money into your pocket. You are set on a goal and you know this is going to help you reach the goal. So you're not going to blow up your own plan. So love those questions today.
- [49:28]
A
Yeah, values Values might be the theme of today's episode.
- [49:31]
B
Yeah, a lot. Yeah.
- [49:34]
A
Well, Joe, thank you for spending this time with us. Where can you.
- [49:36]
B
Thank you, Paula.
- [49:37]
A
Ah, where can people find you? If they'd like to know more, I'll
- [49:43]
B
tell you where people can find me and you tonight. Tonight, if you're listening to this, on the day that it comes out, the Paula Pant and I are at Eagle hall on the Texas A and M Texarkana campus doing a live show where we are doing. We're gonna have so much fun with students and people from the Texarkana community. Jay Davis, who leads the charge out there in the financial curriculum at Texas A and M, invited us in on this joint project. And Paula, I'm so excited that you get to help us kick it off. So if you are anywhere near Texarkana at 6:30 tonight, come to Eagle hall on campus. And the event is free. It's free. How often do you get to hang out with Paula and me and a bunch of cool students who are thinking about their financial future all in the same place?
- [50:39]
A
Yeah.
- [50:39]
B
And Jay Davis, who's a cool guy too.
- [50:41]
A
So yeah, I'm so excited for tonight. Big thanks to Texas A M. Big thanks to Jay Davis. Thanks to Texarkana, Texas for welcoming me and thanks to Joe for letting me crash at his place.
- [50:58]
B
And thanks to Cooper, Cooper the cat, who's Paula's best bud when she's here.
- [51:04]
A
Yeah, Cooper and I are buddies.
- [51:06]
B
I also think if you sadly are not around Texarkana, I don't know why you wouldn't be tonight. But for those of you that aren't, there's a huge possibility you'll hear it in the future.
- [51:19]
A
You'll hear a recording of it.
- [51:21]
B
You'll hear a recording of it.
- [51:23]
A
So make sure that you're following this podcast in your favorite podcast playing app so that you do hear that recording. Open up Spotify, open Apple Podcasts, open Pandora, open whatever it is that you use to listen to this show and hit the follow button so that you don't miss what's coming up next while you're there. Also, please leave us up to a five star review. Write a few words, say what you enjoy about the show. We love reading these. I read every single one and it really guides what we do. I want to also thank everyone. In one of our previous episodes, someone called in and asked, what questions do you have for us? And Joe, you and I both asked, how can we best serve you? How can we grow this? So many of you wrote in with answers and with great advice. So thank you to all of you who have written in. We're trying to respond but we've gotten a great volume. So as much as we are trying to respond to each one, we haven't been able to respond to each and every single one. But but I want to thank everyone who wrote in because it was just really beautiful to read and informs the conversations that we're having behind the scenes around where we go from here, what we do next. Thank you all for being afforders. If you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe to our newsletter affordanything.com newsletter and please share this with the people in your life. Share it with the alumni from Texas
- [52:54]
B
A and M. Share it with Jay Davis. Jay's going to be like, why do I keep coming up?
- [53:01]
A
Share it with anyone you know in the great state of Texas.
- [53:04]
B
Share it with your friends in the Bay Area, the Hudson Bay area and
- [53:08]
A
the Tampa Bay area, and the San Francisco Bay area. Share it with anyone in Central Florida. I mean Melbourne, Florida, if you want a single family home as a primary residence, that's the place to go.
- [53:21]
B
Share it with the Melbourne, Florida Chamber of Commerce who should be telling everybody that they got a shout out today.
- [53:29]
A
Share it with anyone you know who's in their 20s who can be inspired by Brigham's question, what a fantastic role model, especially for young people.
- [53:40]
B
Share it with the real estate professional who is going to help you find the 600 square foot condo and make sure you run that condo by Paula first to make sure it's the right one. Share it with your friends at Home Depot when you're there for the fourth time.
- [54:03]
A
Share it with John Lennon and Bruce Lee. Share it with all of those people and more because that is the single most important way that you spread the message of F I R E. Thank you again for being afforders. I'm Paula Pant.
- [54:18]
B
I'm Joe Sol Sihai and we'll meet
- [54:20]
A
you in the next episode.