Q&A: When Being Good With Money … Isn't Good Enough

Summary

Afford Anything Podcast: Q&A Episode Summary Episode: "When Being Good With Money … Isn't Good Enough" Release Date: July 22, 2025 Hosts: Paula Pant and Joe Salsihai Network: Cumulus Podcast Network

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Introduction to the Episode

In this insightful Q&A session, Paula Pant and former financial planner Joe Salsihai delve into complex financial dilemmas posed by listeners. The episode, titled "When Being Good With Money … Isn't Good Enough," explores the nuances of financial planning beyond mere budgeting and investing, addressing the psychological and strategic aspects of money management.

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Listener Questions and Expert Insights

1. Prioritizing Financial Goals: Buying a Second Property vs. Investing

• Question from Jalen (00:31):
  Jalen, a 41-year-old physician, discusses her family's solid financial standing and poses questions about whether to prioritize purchasing a second property now or continue investing surplus funds into retirement accounts. She also inquires about balancing competing financial goals such as college savings and future expenses like children's weddings or cars.

• Paula's Response (04:15):
  Paula commends Jalen on her financial achievements and advises caution against committing to a second home for retirement at this stage. She emphasizes the unpredictability of future preferences and recommends focusing on investments that offer flexibility and robust returns over the next two decades.
  Notable Quote:

  “I would encourage you to buy an income-producing rental property if that's something that interests you. But make that decision purely on the basis of what is the price to rent ratio, what is the cap rate, what is the potential for appreciation.” (01:20)

• Joe's Insights (05:45):
  Joe echoes Paula's sentiments, highlighting that real estate and the stock market have similar long-term returns. He stresses the importance of keeping investments flexible to accommodate changing personal preferences and life stages.
  Notable Quote:

  “I love the idea of let's look at what's going to get you there the most flexibly and the most reliably.” (02:00)

• Risk and Reward Analysis (07:29):
  Paula delves into the concept of fungibility, explaining that while real estate is an infungible asset, financial flexibility through investments allows for better adaptability to future needs. She advises assessing properties based on their investment metrics rather than personal preferences.
  Notable Quote:

  “Money is fungible, so don't negate that benefit by trying to make it infungible.” (07:29)

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2. Balancing Competing Financial Priorities: The MMA Cage Match Approach

• Joe's Strategy (10:16):
  Joe introduces a framework likened to an MMA cage match, where financial priorities compete against each other. This method helps individuals determine which financial goals take precedence by evaluating potential disappointments if certain goals aren't met.
  Notable Quote:

  “I would ask clients… which one would disappoint me more. So I would ask clients back in the day, let’s say, Jalen, that you couldn't retire at 62, but your child would get the car at 16. How would you look at those two?” (10:16)

• Paula's Recommendation (13:10):
  Paula summarizes the essence of their advice with a powerful reminder:
  Notable Quote:

  “Fundamentally, you can afford anything, but not everything.” (13:10)

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3. Personal Financial Decisions and Social Judgments

• Paula's Personal Example (16:03):
  Paula shares a personal story about allocating funds toward her cat’s chemotherapy by saving on groceries, illustrating prioritization based on personal values. She addresses societal judgments regarding unconventional spending choices.
  Notable Quote:

  “It's absolutely okay to spend money on if that's something that you value.” (16:38)

• Joe's Commentary on Social Perceptions (17:28):
  Joe discusses the varying perceptions of financial decisions within different communities, emphasizing that judgments often arise when spending diverges from societal norms.
  Notable Quote:

  “The judgment can often come out because people don’t necessarily see how you have cut back in other ways in order to create the space for that.” (17:28)

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4. Long Term Disability Insurance: Should You Continue with COBRA?

• Question from Reece (27:42):
  Reece, a 28-year-old recently laid off professional, seeks advice on whether to continue his long-term disability insurance through COBRA, given his changing circumstances and health considerations.

• Paula's Advice (30:20):
  Encouraging Reece to remain calm, Paula advises maintaining COBRA coverage since he has already met his deductible for the year, thus avoiding duplicated expenses.
  Notable Quote:

  “Keep the COBRA. You’ve already met the deductible. No need to pay deductible twice in the same calendar year.” (31:06)

• Joe's Additional Insights (31:39):
  Joe suggests assessing the cost-benefit ratio of continuing with the existing long-term disability policy versus exploring new options in the open market, especially considering potential future job prospects and coverage adequacy.
  Notable Quote:

  “Go to your state's healthcare exchange and just price it out. This is a one-hour thing to do.” (32:59)

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5. Long Term Care Planning: Balancing Retirement and Future Healthcare Needs

• Question from Kip (39:58):
  Kip, a 47-year-old striving for early retirement, grapples with the uncertainty of future long-term care expenses, contemplating whether to continue working until sufficient savings are amassed or purchasing long-term care insurance despite rising costs and premiums.

• Paula's Comprehensive Response (41:36):
  Paula commends Kip for his proactive financial planning and suggests exploring phased retirement options, where he might transition to more fulfilling but lower-paying roles instead of ceasing work entirely. She emphasizes the importance of aligning work with personal fulfillment to enhance overall quality of life.
  Notable Quote:

  “I want to create a pathway through which you can do work that’s more fulfilling, more rewarding.” (43:14)

• Joe's Practical Solutions (41:53):
  Joe breaks down the complexities of long-term care insurance, recommending a balanced approach that may include partial self-insurance and selective coverage based on specific needs and risk assessments. He advises planning for a typical 2-3 year stay in a skilled nursing facility, which significantly reduces financial burdens compared to lifetime coverage.
  Notable Quote:

  “If you can afford one of you 36 months, you’ve vastly covered the majority of situations.” (52:45)

• Paula and Joe's Joint Recommendations (51:55 & 54:32):
  Together, they outline strategies to make long-term care insurance more affordable by adjusting policy parameters such as benefit periods and daily coverage amounts. They also highlight the statistical improbability of both spouses needing extensive long-term care simultaneously, advocating for joint coverage options with staggered benefits.
  Notable Quotes:

  Paula: “Lowering that daily benefit amount… split the costs.” (51:55)
  Joe: “The likelihood of both in you needing the coverage… is very, very unusual.” (52:45)

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Key Takeaways

1. Flexibility in Investments: Focus on investments that offer flexibility and robust returns rather than committing to specific future assets like a second home.

2. Prioritizing Financial Goals: Use frameworks like the "MMA cage match" approach to prioritize competing financial goals based on personal values and potential disappointments.

3. Fungibility of Money: Treat money as a fungible asset, ensuring that investments remain flexible and not tied to specific outcomes or possessions.

4. Insurance Decisions: Carefully assess the cost-benefit ratio of continuing existing insurance plans versus exploring new options, especially during life transitions like job loss.

5. Long Term Care Planning: Consider phased approaches to long-term care insurance, balancing self-insurance with selective coverage to manage future healthcare expenses without overextending financially.

6. Personal Fulfillment in Work: Align financial planning with personal fulfillment by exploring career changes that offer both satisfaction and acceptable financial returns.

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Conclusion

This episode of Afford Anything underscores the importance of strategic financial planning that goes beyond standard budgeting and investing. By addressing listener questions with empathy and expertise, Paula Pant and Joe Salsihai provide actionable insights into managing complex financial decisions, prioritizing goals, and aligning money management with personal values and life satisfaction.

For more in-depth discussions and expert advice, visit Afford Anything Community and subscribe to the Afford Anything Newsletter.

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Note: Advertisements and promotional segments within the episode have been omitted for clarity and relevance.

Transcript

[Paula Pant]

Joe, when you were a financial planner, did you have clients who came to you and said, you know what, I'm doing well, but I want to be doing better.

[Joe Salsihai]

A hundred percent of them, like everybody. Well, why are you going to hire a financial planner? You're like, yeah, I think I'm doing okay, but I think with your help, I can supersize it.

[Paula Pant]

But sometimes people hire financial planners because they're in a moment of financial distress. Right, agreed.

[Joe Salsihai]

You know what's funny? I think it was a combination of the two. It was, I have this inflection which was generally I'm thinking about retirement and not thinking about about it 10 years from now. I'm thinking about it like in six months. We just had a baby, we're getting married, we're thinking about buying a new house. There was totally this inflection moment, but also they thought, I think I need help because I think I can do better.

[Paula Pant]

Well, we're going to talk to someone who has that question and is not so much in an inflection moment, but right at that midpoint of life where you're old enough to be established, but still young enough that you've got decades ahead of you and you've got the opportunity to make big changes ahead.

[Joe Salsihai]

Awesome.

[Paula Pant]

We're going to tackle that. As well as a question about health insurance, cobra and a question about long term care. Welcome to the Afford Anything podcast. The show that knows you can afford anything. Not everything. This show covers five pillars. Financial psychology, increasing your income, investing, real estate, and entrepreneurship. It's double I fire. I'm your host, Paula Pant. I trained in economic reporting at Columbia. Every other episode ish. I answer questions from you and I do so with my buddy, the former financial planner, Joe Salsihai. What's up, Joe?

[Joe Salsihai]

I like the ish. It's like the asterisk.

[Paula Pant]

Well, you know, it's, it's a loose. Every other episode. It gives us some flexibility.

[Joe Salsihai]

Yes. And we always want to build in flexibility no matter what you do. Right. We talk about having a cash cushion. The ish is Paula's cash cushion on this podcast.

[Paula Pant]

Right. You know, because sometimes someone goes on vacation who would do that? Jode, you just got back from 18 days in Greece.

[Joe Salsihai]

Yeah. That sucked. It was horrible. I cried the whole time.

[Paula Pant]

You missed the show so much.

[Joe Salsihai]

If I could only be hanging out with the Afford Anything community. But I'm here on the beach in a Greek island. Oh.

[Paula Pant]

So we recorded a two part episode with J.L. collins to occupy one of the Tuesdays.

[Joe Salsihai]

That bomb you had to work with that Bob instead of me.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, to fill in for one of the episodes that we couldn't record together.

[Joe Salsihai]

I'm glad it took JL Collins to fill these shoes. Makes me very proud.

[Paula Pant]

Well, let's get to our first question which comes from Jalen.

[Jalen]

Hi Paula, My husband and I are both 41 years old. We have three children, ages 8, 11 and 13. I'm a physician and he works as a commercial project manager. Annually we bring in about $350,000. We tithe 10%, invest 18% and after all of our savings and expenses come out, we still have a surplus of around $3,000 a month. Our primary residence holds a $550,000 mortgage which should be paid off by the time we reach retirement age. It's currently worth over $1 million. We have paid off $300,000 in med school debt, so other than our house, we're completely debt free and we now have around $500,000 invested toward retirement. Additionally, our kids 529s are being funded by a short term rental that's on our primary residence, our primary property that we rent out to a college student on a monthly basis for $980. Our goal is to retire around 60 to 62 years old and that's what our financial plan currently funding our retirement counts has us on track for. Given that we'd like to retire in our early 60s, is it wise to prioritize buying a second property now, knowing that we plan to use it in retirement extensively and potentially could cash flow a short term rental now or to use the extra surplus and keep investing in our current retirement accounts? Secondly, how do you recommend balancing sort of competing goals? We have college savings to consider as well as savings for things like children's cars and weddings versus a second property versus retirement investing when we have a consistent monthly surplus but we want to optimize long term value? As you're aware, real estate is just getting more expensive. And lastly, what are the biggest financial pitfalls to watch for when considering a lifestyle based second property that will eventually become a good home during retirement that we would spend a portion of the year in? Paula, I so enjoy your podcast and I'm looking forward to your answer.

[Paula Pant]

Thanks Jalen, thank you so much for your question and congratulations on everything that you've built. Congrats on paying off that med school debt that is huge on being debt free with the exception of a reasonable mortgage on a primary residence that you have 50% equity in. Congratulations on building out the retirement funds on managing your money so well. So let's talk about what to do next, because you're in a spot where you're doing great, but let's see how you can do even better. First, you talk about this second home that you'd like to use in retirement, but retirement is still 20 years away. And it strikes me that what you want to do in retirement, where you want to live, those things can change in the next 20 years. So I would be cautious around making decisions now in your early 40s about what you're going to want 20 years into the future and how that plays out when it comes to decision making today is that I would not commit to to the house that you're going to spend your time in in retirement. I would instead buy the investment that is going to make the best returns so that 20 years in the future you can spend those returns however you choose. So don't buy the house that you think you're going to live in when you're 62. If you do buy a rental property, buy the rental property that gives you the best reward commensurate with the level of risk of that property. And then over the next 20 years, you'll make great returns on that home relative to the level of risk that you take on. And you can use those returns to buy any property that you want.

[Joe Salsihai]

And widely, even though Jalen is 100% correct that the price of real estate is going up, so is the stock market. If you look at long periods of time, the North American REIT index, which looks at large swaths of real estate across the nation, you have a very similar return. And I love keeping your money flexible because 100%, if I look back 20 years ago, because she's looking 20 years in the future to Joe at 37 versus Joe at 57, the house I would have bought then would not interest me today at all. It wouldn't interest me at all. So I would end up then renovating it, making big changes. I love the idea of let's look at what's going to get you there the most flexibly and the most reliably, so that when she gets to the point that she wants that house that she can pick the one that really fits her, then the other thing that strikes me is the house that I would buy back when I was doing real estate investing. Paula, the house that I would buy is a great real estate investment, is 100% a different property using different metrics than a property that I would buy for my own personal consumption.

[Paula Pant]

Exactly. You know, the Beauty of money is its fungibility. The beauty of money is that any $1 can be exchanged for any other $1. And when you're committing to a property, you are trading away that fun. Real estate is unique in that it is an asset that is infungible. One house cannot be traded for any other house. Jaylin, I think what your objective should be for the next 20 years is to amass dollars because then those dollars can be spent on any home that you want.

[Joe Salsihai]

And I definitely wouldn't be afraid, assuming that you're going to use 20 year time frame investments, of falling behind on the real estate front. If you invest in stocks, historically you haven't fallen behind.

[Paula Pant]

Right. Well, and she can also rental properties. So to your point, Joe, the home that you personally prefer for personal consumption is very rarely the home that has a great cap rate relative to its risk profile. I know I keep talking about rewards commensurate with risk when it comes to rental properties. Let me unpack just at a basic level what I'm, what I mean when I say this. And Jalen, you, you may already know this from having listened to previous episodes, but I'm saying this for the broader audience. When you're looking at a property that would be used as an investment, broadly speaking, these properties have a variety of risk characteristics. The neighborhood that the property is located in, there's a level of risk associated with that neighborhood. The age of the property has a level of risk. The condition of the property has a level of risk. The amount of leverage that you use on that property has a level of risk. And broadly speaking, properties that are higher risk tend to have a better price to rent ratios, more landlord friendly price to rent ratios, and the potential for much bigger returns, but also the potential for much bigger losses. And by contrast, properties that have lower, you know, lower levels of risk in all dimensions. So newer in age, better in condition, better in neighborhood class a neighborhood. Right. Those properties tend to have lower risk, lower rewards. Their price to rent ratios tend to not be as great, their cap rates tend to be lower. Just like when you're picking any asset, you can choose the property that fits your ideal risk profile, but you want to make sure that whatever it is that you're buying has the best rewards for that risk category. Right. If you're going to buy a relatively new class A property in good condition, you want to take a look at other comparable offerings that share that same risk category and make sure that you're getting a great cap rate and a great price to rent ratio for Properties within that category. And likewise, if you're buying a class C property that's in a fixer upper condition, you want to take a look at what the other comparable offerings are and get something with a great price to rent ratio and a great cap rate relative to that class of property. As you're looking at different properties across these different categories or classes of properties, you know you want the one that has the great cap rate and that's rarely the one that you love because.

[Joe Salsihai]

You'Re not the only one that loves it.

[Paula Pant]

Well, just because what a person wants in terms of personal consumption has no relevance to the investment characteristics of the property.

[Joe Salsihai]

Yeah, I'd also like to address. She asked about priorities and with the possibility of cars coming up in the future, weddings maybe in the future, helping out kids and this property investment. I love this question, Paula. That's why it was chapter one of my book.

[Paula Pant]

Look at that product placement drop.

[Joe Salsihai]

Look at that, huh? Yeah, Ninja. I thought I'd sneak that in there, but frankly it's less. It's less about product placement. It's chapter one. Because I think this is really important and I think people get this wrong all the time. I like thinking about my priorities like it's an MMA cage match and asking which one would disappoint me more. So I would ask clients back in the day, let's say, Jaylen, that you couldn't retire at 62, but your child would get the car at 16. You had to decide between those two. How would you look at those two? Would the child have to pay for part of their own car? Would you buy more of a used car beater that might not be as safe but might be more affordable? Or would you retire a little bit later and the child gets the car that you think would be appropriate? If you couldn't pay for as much of the child's wedding, would you downsize the wedding? Would you have them pay for part of the wedding and still retire at 62? So I like doing this. If, let's say there's not money for all the above, which one wins? And then you'll get a clear list of your own priorities. Because I think, Paula, it's impossible for us to answer this question because it was always different depending on the person that I was talking to. No, no, no, no, no. I really want to make sure they have the wedding that they want. I want the money there and available so I will definitely retire later. That tells me a lot about your feeling about your job. Tells me a lot about your feeling about family and the kids. It always depended on the person. Everybody had a no, no, no. I mean, this is a no brainer. I would definitely do X. Yes, and it was a no brainer for you, but it was different for everybody.

[Paula Pant]

Everybody's ex is different.

[Joe Salsihai]

That is what I would do. The pitfall, I think, is in trying to over optimize toward one of those goals. I love the fact that you recognize there's going to be these competing needs for my money in the future. So I would try not to 100% optimize toward 1 of them. I would lean toward the one that's the biggest priority. But if those priorities change in the future, much like we talked about saving that house decision for 20 years from now, I would put the money in a place where if my time horizon changes, which is one of the risks that certified financial planners talk about all the time, is that the time horizon looked like it was 10 years and now all of a sudden it's two years. Right. That is a risk. So if the time horizon changes, that the money is available and I can quickly change priorities toward that money.

[Paula Pant]

Joe, fundamentally what you're talking about is that you can afford anything, but not everything.

[Joe Salsihai]

Wow, look at that product placement.

[Paula Pant]

And then if it's done tournament style, where the winner then goes on to compete against the next thing between A and B. A1, I'll take A, which is the winner, and A spars against C, Between A and C, who is the win? Say C. Now C competes with D, which one is the winner?

[Joe Salsihai]

Still C. I love it.

[Paula Pant]

Then by going tournament style between all of these, you get to place the priorities in a hierarchy.

[Joe Salsihai]

And what's great about that exercise, too, is that because we listen to podcasts, we read books, and we get this kind of an ethic of what everybody else thinks is important. By you going through this yourself, you discern between what I hear everybody else talk about that's important and what truly is important to me, which is really what matters.

[Paula Pant]

You and I, Joe, we were talking about this behind the scenes last week when the cameras were off, because I recently made a spending decision that came under a lot of public criticism. My cat has large cell lymphoma, and I have decided in consultation with my veterinarian to give her chemotherapy, which is going to cost between $16,000 to $18,000. I'm doing so because the veterinarian believes that there is a chance that my cat could go into remission. And if there's a possibility for her cancer to go into remission, I'm going to see if we can make that happen. I talked about on your show on Stacking Benjamin's, and it came under a lot of public criticism because some people could not wrap their heads around the notion of spending between 16 to $18,000 on chemotherapy for a pet. But here's the thing, Joe. You and I were talking about this separately. I also buy groceries from a supplier that sells what, quote, unquote, ugly produce. It's that misshapen overstock. The selection is different every week. The shopping window was very narrow. They only deliver on Wednesdays. It's an inconvenient way to buy groceries, but it's overstock, quote, unquote, ugly produce. By virtue of buying those discount groceries, I save, I'd say on average about 50 a week relative to what my grocery bill would be if I were to buy groceries at the regular grocery store. I've been buying, quote, unquote, ugly produce discount groceries for about six years. So let's do the math here. $50 a week times 52 weeks a year times six years. There's your cost of cat chemo right there.

[Joe Salsihai]

And it's not based on anybody else's priorities. It's based on your priorities. And you spent the same amount of money based on something that's incredibly important to you.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, exactly.

[Joe Salsihai]

And I address this on a episode later on, Stacking Benjamin's. Just people that had left these reviews of the show is that we're all chasing this. We're chasing financial independence. So how. How do people get negative fact that somebody is able to spend money on the things that's a priority for them, and we get all judgy about that. Really?

[Paula Pant]

Yeah. Well, I think that when people hear that you've spent such a large amount of money on something that is so discretionary, people often assume that that means that you've just got, like, tons of money, which, if you do, there's nothing wrong with that. But the judgment can often come out because people don't necessarily see how you have cut back in other ways in order to be able to create the space for that. So the three biggest line items in a person's spending are housing, transportation, and food and grocery. Example that I just highlighted shows how, by cutting back in the food category, paved the road so that I could spend more money on veterinary bills.

[Joe Salsihai]

And your cat Tazzy is like, thank goodness I won the MMA cage match.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah. When people spend money on things that are socially sanctioned, such as slightly nicer groceries, the judgment doesn't come out. But when people spend money in a way that is unusual, that's when the judgment from others tends to come out.

[Joe Salsihai]

Look at the broader world to give this even more context. The broader world, when we talk about an expensive wedding, I think the broader world on an expensive wedding, Paula, is like, good for them. Don't get me wrong. In the personal finance community, we're like that. You kidding me? It's funny how the judgment swings both ways depending on what community you're in, right? If you're in the broader world, they're like, oh, Jeff Bezos rents out Venice. Didn't know that was the thing, but sounds pretty cool. The Venetians didn't like it, but the rest of us go, man, if I could do that. And except the personal finance community, who goes, man, what a waste of money.

[Paula Pant]

All of that is to say that when you're thinking through your spending priorities, keep at the forefront of your awareness that things on their face might sound expensive because they're not socially sanctioned, they're not normalized by broader society, are absolutely okay to spend money on if that's something that you value. And likewise, expenses that are normalized, like a nicer car, if that's not something that you value, you don't have to spend your money there. And by virtue of not spending your money in these ways that are quote, unquote, normal, you free up these elements in your budget to be able to spend in ways that are weird, if that's what you want to do. I live in New York City. I easily could afford a car if I wanted one, but I don't want one. I took the bus to work today. I was. Joe, you know this. I was texting you from the bus, right? I took the city bus to work, but I'll spend $18,000 giving chemotherapy to my cat while riding the city bus.

[Joe Salsihai]

And on that note, Paula, even if you hadn't made sacrifices in one area to afford this in another area, you and I are both about to talk to our friend and a phenomenal financial commentator of dollars and data fame, Nick Magi. And he talks about the wealth ladder. And I think this is definitely an interview that the Ford anything community is going to want to listen to, because Nick makes a great point of talking about something that is super important for somebody to pay attention to who's on what he calls level one of the ladder. Somebody just starting off is irrelevant to somebody who's on five. And so where a budget for somebody who's just starting out is a very important thing, Paula, you and We've talked about this on the Stacking Benjamin show for you. At a different level, the budget's not as important. It's still important to pay attention to. Does my money reflect my values? But does a dollar by dollar line item make sense anymore? No. It can be a rounding error. You can go to a restaurant and you can order an alcoholic beverage which is overpriced, but because it increases your enjoyment of, of the experience, you'll order it anyway. Where somebody who's on level one, that's a crucial decision for them. And I think this is really important because you'll see a Lamborghini pull up next to you at a red light and you may go, oh, my goodness. The amount of money that the person's spending on a car. Elon Musk, in one year had his net worth go up by so much money that his net worth improvement in less than a year between, I believe 2020 and 2021 would have put him in the top 10 net worths of all time. Just the improvement on his net would have put him in the top 10. If Elon Musk is driving a Lamborghini, it means nothing to him.

[Paula Pant]

I'd be very surprised. If he wasn't driving a Tesla, I would do.

[Joe Salsihai]

But I'm just talking expensive car. If he's driving an incredibly expensive car, it means nothing to him. To somebody who is level one starting out, making the decision to buy a Lamborghini, incredibly stupid. So I also think just being judgy about what's going on under the hood, you don't know what's going on under the hood. You have no idea about their entire financial game plan and where they're at on this ladder that Nick's going to talk about, which is fascinating and I, I think really an important interview for people to listen to. So I can't wait until you interview him. And I'm interviewing him as well on Stacking Benjamins. And as people that have listened to both our shows know, you listen to those two interviews together, we're always after different stuff, so I can't wait to hear the differences also and what we talked to Nick about here in just a couple weeks, I believe when this comes out. And this is another reason why. Also, Jalen, getting back to your direct question, that's another reason why I wouldn't make that house purchase today. Because 20 years from now, you may be in a different spot on the ladder as well, where the importance of this house today may be completely different as your net worth changes as well. You'll find as your net worth changes, your priorities change and what you look at changes. So for that reason as well, I also like holding off.

[Paula Pant]

I would encourage you to buy an income producing rental property if that's something that interests you. But I would encourage you to make that decision purely on the basis of what is the price to rent ratio, what is the cap rate, what is the potential for appreciation, right? Make that decision purely on the basis of the numbers associated with that property and not on the basis of do I want to live in said property in 20 years into the future. There's another exercise, Joe. You talked about the MMA cage match between A versus B, B versus C, C versus D. The other way that I like to frame these prioritization decisions is make a long list of just brainstorm every single thing that you might want to spend money on. So kids, college expenses, kids, kids, weddings, your own retirement. Just make a very, very long list. Freestyle brainstorm, right? Every possible expense. Then in the next column write down a rough estimate, doesn't have to be precise, but a rough estimate of ballpark what you think that might cost. Then in the next column write down the time frame of how many years into the future you want to make that expense. And then in the following column you divide time frame by cost so you know precisely how much money year you would need to save in order to achieve that expense. And often when people do this exercise, they get to that column of how much do they need to save per year in order to be able to pay for that expense. And the amount of money that they would have to save per year per month. You could do it either by month or by year. The amount that they would have to save in order to cover every expense at the amount that they estimate those expenses will cost is completely unrealistic or untenable. Right? That's typically what happens when most people do this exercise. And that's a great thing because now that you have crunched those numbers and you know that total amount of what the savings would need to be, you can now go back and do one of three things. Lengthen the timeline, reduce the amount, or eliminate a few of those line items altogether. So that's the exercise that helps you decide how you're going to shift through all of these priorities. Which timelines do you extend, which amounts do you reduce and which categories of spending do you eliminate entire fairly.

[Joe Salsihai]

And what I love about this exercise, Jalen, which you truly bring up in your question, is you realizing that how you save for A is going to have an impact on B, C and D is something that people, Paula, don't think about enough. When we start off with what's your risk tolerance? Which drives me crazy. Well, what type of risk do I want to take in this investment? Well, what type of risk do you need to take? How much money do I need this to produce? And then can I withstand the risk that it's going to take take to do that? And if I miss on this goal, what impact does this have on my other goals? Too much financial planning happens in a vacuum. And truly Jaylen, I love the fact that you're not looking at this as a vacuum. You're looking at this as the one lever impacts the other lever, which is a kick ass rubric to work from.

[Paula Pant]

Right? But my biggest tip, Jaylen, based on the question that you asked, is separate your lifestyle from your investment choices. Don't make lifestyle based investment choices. Invest in ways that make sense on a spreadsheet and then use that money to live how you choose to live. But don't commingle the two Paula, I.

[Joe Salsihai]

Think your answer to this question put the fund in fungible. Oh come on. That was so good. Fungible might be my favorite word.

[Paula Pant]

Fungible is a great word and that is the takeaway from our answer. Money is fungible, so don't negate that benefit by trying to make it infungible.

[Joe Salsihai]

More fungible is more fun in this case, yes.

[Paula Pant]

So thank you Jaylen for the question. Upgrade your learning experience during Dell Technologies Back to school event with AI PCs like the Dell 14 plus, featuring an Intel Core Ultra processor starting at $749.99. Supercharge your studies with features like real time notes, transcription, AI accelerated hardware to run multiple apps without slowing down, extended battery life, and more. That's the power of new AI PCs with Intel inside. Discover a smarter way to [e-mail] deals. That's Dell.com deals no one likes to think about what would happen if you lost a loved one. Imagine from a financial perspective what type of financial ramifications you might suffer if you were to lose the primary income earner within your household. Old Nearly half of American adults say that they'd suffer financial hardship within six months if that were to happen. And so if that stat hits close to home, you're not alone and you're not out of options. Life insurance creates a financial safety net just in case something happens. With Policygenius, you can find life insurance policies starting at just $276 a year for $1 million in coverage. It's an easy way to protect the people you love, love and feel good about. The future. Policygenius helps you compare options from America's top insurers in just a few clicks. There's a team of licensed agents that handles paperwork. They answer questions. They'll advocate for you throughout the process and policygenius has thousands of five star reviews on Google and trustpilot. The thing about life insurance is that it's a form of financial planning. It's something that you buy not for yourself, but for the people that you care about. The people who depend on your income so you can secure your family's future. With Policygenius. Head to Policygenius.com to compare free life insurance quotes from top companies and see how much you could save. That's policygenius.com small business owners State Farm is there with small business insurance to fit your specific needs. Whether you're starting a new venture or growing an existing one, State Farm helps you choose the right coverage to protect what matters most. Working with a local State Farm agent helps you understand your coverage options. Offering local support to help you achieve your goals. Focus on turning your passion into a thriving business. Knowing your insurance can change as your business grows. State Farm here to help you succeed with your business. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Our next question comes from Reese.

[Reese]

Hey Paula and Joe. This is reece from episode 417. You guys give me some great advice about long term disability insurance because I have depression. That was a couple years ago. I'm now 28, still young to be disabled long term. But I was calling it to see what your opinion is now that my situation has changed. I was recently laid off from my job job big bummer. And I enrolled in COBRA coverage which was painfully expensive but I already have met my $7,000 out of pocket max because I tore my ACL earlier this year and I was like there's no point in a marketplace plan with a new deductible and I might not be able to keep my physical therapist. So anyway I enrolled in cobra. That was a little bit of an easier decision because I knew that I needed medical insurance. Now I've actually before I understood that COBRA is retroactive. I was afraid to leave my house because I was like what if I get hit by a car? It was terrible. Anyway, your girls no insured. My question is should I continue my it was an employee paid long term disability insurance through my former employer. I just got the letter. I'm wondering if you guys have any perspective on this on one hand, I obviously am looking for another job. Realistically, that could take six months to a year. But the risk of me becoming disabled long term in that time feels a lot lower than the risk of me needing health care. Mostly because I'm still recovering from this ACL repair and I know I'll need health care or I'll get sick or something, you know, something will go wrong. But the chances of me being disabled for a long time and running out of money and needing to draw on that are much lower. Should I wait and not continue the coverage and just get another employer provided plan and if my next employer just doesn't offer that benefit, get long term disability insurance on the private marketplace in my brain Continuing COBRA made sense because I'd already met the year's deductible in February, so switching plans was would be silly to pay almost the same premium but have a new deductible. But that isn't the same with long term disability insurance. Does it make sense to keep the same plan and provider over a long term or can I just kind of switch with impunity and not have an issue? Would love your perspective if you have any. I had decision fatigue. I have figured out way too many things that I never thought I'd have to figure out in the last couple weeks. So I would really love some things to think about and any advice you might have. Thank you guys so much. You guys always give such great advice.

[Paula Pant]

Oh Rhys, first of all, I'm so sorry to hear that you got laid off. And second, I can hear the decision fatigue in your voice. So the first thing that I would recommend is take a breath because I can hear that you're overthinking this. I don't want to downplay the importance of what you're thinking through, but sometimes it's so easy to get in your head about all of the multitude of possibilities and to see how the roads can fork in an infinite number of directions and then that can quickly spiral. And when that happens, you can sometimes lose sight of the fact that you're already on a good track, you're handling things really well, and there are some more decisions to make. But in the grand scheme of things, and in the 80, 20 of it, you're on the right course already.

[Joe Salsihai]

And I think, Reece, to give yourself a little grace, that this is a difficult decision. And as you can see because of your thorough analysis of this, there frankly is no right decision. And we'll walk through it in a second. But whatever decision you make here just Knowing what the Achilles heel is of that decision is far, far, far more important. Accepting the decision you make is far more important than putting a lot of pressure on yourself to make, quote, the right decision. Because, Paula, I don't think there is a right decision here, but we can certainly help her with her thinking.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah. So Rhys, I agree with the assessment of keep the cobra. You've already met the deductible. No need to pay deductible twice in the same calendar year. Year. So keep that. But when it comes to long term disability insurance.

[Joe Salsihai]

Paul, before you get to long term disability insurance, can I just add one thing on the cobra?

[Paula Pant]

Oh, yeah, totally.

[Joe Salsihai]

What I would like to know, Reece, is because I 100% agree with Paula. I think you made the right move there. But I always want to know the cost benefit of my decision. So if you haven't priced out on the open market, what coverages are going to be and what your cost you're paying now is versus the cost on the open market. I always want to know that because often we make assumptions and then we find out on the open market based on where we live and the things going on in our life that those aren't true. And even if they are true, we get more information about when that might change and when the decision making might change as we become more comfortable with the different options that are available. So you don't have to be an expert, but I would certainly go to your state's healthcare exchange and I would just price out very quickly. This is a one hour thing to do. I would price that out. But that said, I'm with Paula. Over the short run, you've already met the deductible. No downside to sticking with the COBRA coverage.

[Paula Pant]

When it comes to long term disability, there's no reason for you to necessarily stay with the same provider. If you're looking for your own plan. When you're pricing out those options, the big discount that you can obtain comes from having the longest possible elimination period, period. So from the time that a disability begins, what is the window of time for which you are ineligible for any type of benefit after which a benefit would kick in? So if you have, let's say a two year elimination period, that's gonna be far less expensive than a shorter period of time. What that means is that you would need enough savings to be able to float yourself. If that were to be the case, you would need enough savings to be able to cover your yourself for those two years. But I'd encourage you to start shopping out Those plans right now because I think there's a decent chance that your next employer might not offer long term disability. It's going to depend on the size of the employer. That tends to be a benefit that larger companies offer, but not a benefit that many small to mid sized companies are able to offer. So I wouldn't necessarily count on being able to get it. Depending on who you end up working for next.

[Joe Salsihai]

And even large companies sometimes go really cheap, they will tell you that you're going to get X percentage of your income, let's say 60% of your income. But they will also cap that number to a number like 3,000 or $4,000 a month, which could be for some people, 60% of their income. But for others, as you get raises and promotions, may not even come close to covering it. There was often when I was a financial planner and even lately answering questions where people will send me their coverage because they think they have a number like 60%. And in that fine print, Paula, it shows that no, they're not covering that. They think that they are. So looking at specifically what percentage of her income that the disability coverage covers is a good part of prudent planning. Let me cover that as well. While I'm on the topic of it being a percentage of her income, the fact that it's a percentage of income and right now your income is zero, you're paying for a benefit benefit that you can't receive because it's a percentage of what you make. That would imply that eliminating that coverage over the short term makes a bunch of sense until you get the new job because you're paying for something that you can't get. Some people will hold on to it though. And the reason why you hold on to this is you may have to prove insurability again in the future. And I can't guarantee, and you can't guarantee that you'll be eligible for a long term care policy in the future. Now if it's a group policy, they can't discriminate against you as a piece of the group. So if your employer does offer it, you can easily latch on to their policy. But again, if they decide to go cheap, you're going to be at the whim of whatever they do. So clearly in the hierarchy of needs, if I'm looking at two policies, a health care policy and a long term disability policy where you don't get the benefit, health care comes first because that's not based on a percentage of your income. That's based on if I get sick and or if I need the coverage for whatever reason, I can use that coverage. The disability question, I think for that reason, Paula, is a little more nuanced because we can't predict the future and we don't know. So that's the reason I go back to knowing what the Achilles heel is. If I eliminate that on the short run, that seems like a good move because I'm saving this money in premium, the Achilles heel. What if I don't qualify in the future? What if my new employer goes cheap? I can't predict the future. I don't know what that is. But if you're willing to say okay to that Achilles heel, and you know that going in when you eliminate the coverage, then I think you're making a decision with your eyes wide open if you decide to eliminate it.

[Paula Pant]

I also just want to ask the question, how much does the long term disability insurance offered through your previous employer, how much does that cost? I mean, how onerous is that bill? And I understand when you're unemployed, every bill feels like a burden. But how, how burdensome is that bill? Because especially if it's not overly burdensome, if it is a deal with able amount, then I see an even stronger case for keeping it. And of course you can shop individual plans as well. But generally speaking, anything offered through an employer is typically going to be cheaper than anything you find on your own.

[Joe Salsihai]

Because the employer is subsidizing that premium.

[Paula Pant]

But Reese, broadly speaking, you're doing great. You're taking care of your health. You're watching out for your future future. You're managing your money well. You're thinking about how to take care of yourself in the short term as well as how to take care of yourself in the long term. I think you're doing a wonderful, wonderful job. So give yourself some grace and give yourself a round of applause. So best of luck with your job search and best of luck with that acl. On a related topic, because we've just been talking about long term disability. So our next question is not exactly about that, but it is about another financial planning element. It's long term care.

[Joe Salsihai]

Long term disability for older people.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So we're going to discuss that next.

[Joe Salsihai]

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[Paula Pant]

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[Joe Salsihai]

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[Paula Pant]

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[Reese]

Amazon for back to school and save some money. See, I'm currently obsessed with superheroes and need all the superhero stuff. Superhero launch box, superhero backpack. But next year it'll be something else. Maybe dinosaurs. I don't know. I'm not a fortune teller, but I can tell you not to spend a fortune and shop. Low prices for school on Amazon Kay Good chat Amazon. Spend less, Smile More.

[Paula Pant]

Our final question today comes from Kip Hi Paula and Joe.

[Kip]

My name is Kip and I want you guys to know that I really appreciate the nuanced conversations that you guys provide on the show. I'm 47 and my wife is 48 and we live in a western suburb of Atlanta. Our youngest child, he just finished college and now personally I'm ready to retire mainly because I hate my job job but it provides a good living so I keep doing it. I know my expenses today because we live very frugally and I can afford my current expenses if I quit. The issue is that I have no way of knowing of what my future long term care expenses may be. School nursing facilities in my area cost about 10k per month and you would multiply that by 2 because 1 for me and 1 for more wife Based on the current 4% rule, I definitely cannot afford that. I've checked into long term care insurance policies and the cost, the caveats written into the policy and the unknown escalating premiums make the policy seems less than ideal, maybe even outright crazy in some opinions, but I'll leave that for other people to decide. It seems to me that the most prudent option is for me to just second up, keep working until I can save enough money to fund my own long term care expenses. If I need them in the future. And if not, you know, that can just be an inheritance for, for my kids down the line. Am I crazy or do you guys have a better option? Thanks in advance and I appreciate all the insights you guys provide.

[Joe Salsihai]

Paula Kips Phrasing Long term care premium prices quote outright crazy easy 100% accurate. This is the biggest conundrum for certified financial planning. This is 100% the biggest issue in financial planning. Where CFPs wring their hands and go, this is tough.

[Paula Pant]

I want to start with some. Well, first of all, I want to applaud you for not just for thinking about this, but for everything that you've done right. You are working a job that you don't like, but you're doing it because it pays well and you've set yourself and your family up for a really, really strong financial present and financial future. You know, going to a job that you don't like, that's a big sacrifice. And you've made that sacrifice in order to provide for your family. So I want to applaud you for doing that. And I also want to help you leave that job. Because you're 47 years old, I want you to enjoy your late 40s and your 50s. So if you don't like your job, I want to create a path through which you can leave that job. And that you mentioned that you want to retire. That doesn't necessarily mean that you will stop doing absolutely any work that makes any money. But maybe there's something else, something different, maybe something lower paying, but that's more enjoyable, more aligned with your call. I want to create a pathway through which you can do work that's more leave the job that you dislike and do work that's more rewarding, more fulfilling, more something that you're excited to wake up in the morning and go to where you feel like you're making an impact impact and you're making a difference and you're working with great people and maybe it doesn't pay as well, but you're happy to do it and it lights you up and it's fulfilling. Yeah, exactly.

[Joe Salsihai]

And maybe solving this long term care question, Paula, will help him move into that, at least feel comfortable with it because you can hear his discomfort in how do I negotiate this and leave my job at the same time?

[Paula Pant]

So I want to start with some stats. First, the likelihood of both houses needing expensive long term care simultaneously. Statistically, the likelihood of that is low. About the average stay in a skilled nursing facility is between two to three years. So it is true that about 70% of people who are over the age of 65 are going to need some type of long term care at some point in their senior years. But the average stay is two to three years rather than decades and decades. So it's also the case that many people receive either home care or assisted living rather than skilled nursing.

[Joe Salsihai]

And that is specifically what a long term care policy pays is not the skilled port portion your health insurance will pay for that part or not, but it's that custodial care that those activities of daily living, they call it, that are really what the long term care policy dives in.

[Paula Pant]

So activities of daily living, if you need assistance, buttoning a shirt, going to the bathroom, those types of activities, there are riders on certain policies that are specific to that. But that's where the costs really do go up quite a bit when it comes to that. Insurance insurance.

[Joe Salsihai]

Yeah. Every policy will specify how many daily activities of daily living you can't do before you qualify for it. So you want to know exactly what those are because the way to look at long term care insurance is in the details of the policy. Kip's already looked at this. It sounds like you can't just look at the top line number, what's this going to cost? You have to see what it actually covers. Because you could pay on the surface, Paula, less money and never use that coverage. Or if you pay a higher premium, then the chance of you actually using it goes up. That may end up being a, quote, better deal and a better financial option than going with the budget insurance policy. But the idea of using insurance at all. I think the issue is a lot of people start with insurance and whether I should buy the insurance or not. I don't even think that's the place to start. I think there's two places to start. Number one is what's the quality of care that you would expect for you? And really even more than you, I would phrase that because he's married, the quality of care for your spouse that you would want. So what's the quality of care that you are looking for? If late in your life that doesn't matter a ton, that is going to open up a lot of options. If you want a high quality of care that's going to point you toward more spending in that area and the insurance options become greater. The second piece is what would you do with your money if you and your spouse didn't spend it on yourself? And for someone that's single, this becomes a little easier. Hopefully at that point in your life when this would happen to you. In the vast majority of situations, there's nobody else living in your house besides you. And so for a single person, you're just worried about you. For married people, there's the complication. And you pointed to this earlier, Paula, if one of you goes into a long term care facility or you need help at home, the other person, person, if they're still alive and they're healthy, you're draining the bank account very quickly while the other person still needs to live. So this is much more often a married conundrum than a single person conundrum, with the exception of what do you want to do with your money afterwards. And single people and married people have very definite answers to that question. Almost like we talked about with the MMA cage match earlier for Jalen, everyone goes, well, duh, I want to, to make sure of xyz, they feel very strongly about it. But I'll tell you, it's different for everyone if you're not worried about an inheritance, right? Which he mentioned inheritance. So I don't know. But if Kip's not worried about inheritance and he thinks he has enough money saved for one person to go through a long term care experience, which generally lasts, if you again looking at statistics, about 36 months. Now, there's the exception, right? Grandma was in a long term care facility for 12 years. Years, yes, that can happen. But if we just play the vast probability, which is what insurance is all about anyway, you're going to come up with a number that if you can afford one of you 36 months, you've vastly covered the majority of situations. So Kip, if you can retire and cover that, then I think that makes this easier. So then we get to do I insure it or do I not insure it? Once I get to past quality of care and my thoughts around inheritances and money beyond my lifetime, most people then look at this as one of two ways that they're going to go. And Kip, it sounds like you may be in this case yourself, which is I either insure it myself, I shoulder the burden myself, or I hand it to an insurance company. I think, Paula, there's a third one which is I take a portion of it and I give a portion of the responsibility to a long term care insurance policy that I know doesn't cover the full thing, but it makes my burden lighter. Right. As you can see, there's various degrees of that middle ground and I think that's where the truth is. If you talk to most five Financial planners is going to be for most of us in that middle ground. But if you don't have a lot of money to protect, let's say you started late and you're not worried about inheritance. Well, after you spend your assets, Medicaid will, will pick up long term care costs by and large. And that's a whole longer discussion, but you can leave it to Medicaid. And again, this also gets to quality of care because Medicaid facilities may not be what you want, quality of care while wise, which is why we start there. But if you're not worried about quality of care, you're not worried about inheritance and you started late, well then focus on financial security for you and quote, roll the dice on long term care. Kip, it sounds like, has something he wants to protect. And so for Kip, he's in that this middle ground of I don't have enough for both of us in long term care, but I also have enough that I want to protect. But still for you, Kip, I think there may be a middle ground of maybe I self insure partly and then I give a little bit to insurance, but not as much as it would cost. If you're looking into covering all of it and these huge out of pocket situations of 10, 12 years, if we look at maybe 36 months and a portion of that versus partial covering out of pocket, I think you might be able to leave work earlier than you think. And then, Paula, there's the other part of that discussion, which is can you take on meaningful employment that pays a lot less, which is, I think, the whole other side of this equation.

[Paula Pant]

That's one of the biggest pieces that stood out. When I heard his question. Question, Kip, what I heard you say is that you dislike your job, you'd like to retire. I am 100% a supporter of you leaving the job that you dislike. It is terrible to have to go to a job that doesn't light you up, but that doesn't necessarily lead to needing to retire in the sense of never working for money again, in the sense of the cessation of income. It might mean it's time to find not just a different job, maybe even a different industry, a whole new different field. And I don't know what that would be for you, but I do believe that everybody has a calling and that often if you dislike your job, it may be because you're not following your calling.

[Joe Salsihai]

This is interesting, Paula, because I just spent time talking about how the long term care argument isn't binary. By the Insurance or self fund. And you're also saying employment is not binary. It isn't. I leave the job I hate equals retirement. It doesn't have to be that binary either. So on both ends of this argument, Kip, there's a continuum I want to talk through.

[Paula Pant]

Joe, you've talked about buying offsetting a portion of the burden through long term care insurance insurance. But there are ways to make that long term care insurance a little cheaper. As you talked about, Joe, reducing the benefit period. So getting a policy that's three to five years rather than lifetime coverage, that's going to make a huge difference. We talked about this with Reese. Extending the elimination period, right. Choosing the longest possible elimination period and then having enough money to cover that elimination period yourself, that really significantly reduces the premiums because you're self funding that initial period. And by extending the elimination period in that coverage, you choosing 180 days before benefits kick in rather than 30 days before benefits kick in, that's going to make a huge difference when it comes to the cost of that policy.

[Joe Salsihai]

I think there's a third piece there, Paula, which is that also if you don't try to cover the entire daily cost, you could even slice it that way, cover a portion of the daily cost and not all the daily cost and you can shoulder part of the burden that way as well.

[Paula Pant]

Right, exactly. Lowering that daily benefit amount. So yeah, if you view the insurance as sort of a way to split the costs, you can simultaneously lower the premium as well as take on a portion of the burden. But I think beginning this with the approach that it's highly unlikely that both spouses are going to need lifetime care. Statistically speaking, it's possible that you might be very, very unlucky. But probabilistically it's very, very unusual for both spouses to need lifetime coverage. And it's much more likely that one or both you, but at different times will need two or three years worth of coverage. And if we start with planning for that or maybe planning for a little bit beyond that, like let's say you're planning for five years of coverage for both of you, that by itself really reduces the burden as compared to if you're looking at the possibility of lifetime.

[Joe Salsihai]

There are policies that cover first to go back to another way to slice this where it won't cover both of you, but it will cover the first person to use it. And so you can have a joint coverage option on some policies that are out there. And that also, Paula, because if we look at the likelihood again of both in you needing the coverage, like, okay, I'm going to cover the first person, but not both of us. That can also reduce the amount that you need to pay for in premiums.

[Paula Pant]

But, Kip, I want to applaud you for thinking through this. This is a critically important piece of financial planning, especially as you're planning for your senior years. And it's a piece that a lot of people overlook. So I want to applaud you for. For everything. For living frugally, for providing for your family, even though that has meant working a job that you don't like, for making that sacrifice for the sake of the greater good. I want to applaud you for doing that. And I also really hope sooner than later, you leave that job and do something that lights you up. There is a job out there that's going to make you smile, and I want you to find that job. Job's not even the right word for it. That career, that famous field, that calling that space. Job's not the right word. Because when you find it, it's not going to feel like a job. It's going to feel like this fun thing that you do that you also get a paycheck for in the day to day of it. Sure, it's going to have some elements that are a little bit annoying, but those elements are going to be tolerable because you like the broader scope of what you do. So it's kind of like when you go on vacation. Nobody likes going to the airport, waiting at the gate, boarding the plane. No one enjoys that. But. But people still go on vacations because even though you've got a little bit of those annoying bits here and there, you enjoy the overall experience. That's what the right job feels like. Sure, there are the annoying bits, but you're happy to tolerate those annoying bits because the overall experience is so worth it.

[Joe Salsihai]

That's funny. I like boarding the plane. I do. I like being on the plane. It's so fun. Something for everyone, apparently.

[Paula Pant]

So. Thank you, Kip, for the coin question. Best of luck and call us back. Give us an update. I'd love to know what you end up deciding. Well, Jo, we've done it again.

[Joe Salsihai]

And two out of three questions about insurances.

[Paula Pant]

But the questions weren't even about insurance per se. It was about how do I eliminate these risks that loom in my potential.

[Joe Salsihai]

Future, which is 100% what the insurance discussion should be. It shouldn't be buying the insurance. It should be, is it a risk for me to eliminate this coverage Should I have this coverage? How do I cover the fact that I'm disabled or that I need a long term care? I have a catastrophic illness in retirement.

[Paula Pant]

Right.

[Joe Salsihai]

But then with Jalen, the MMA cage match, prioritizing all these different goals, great stuff.

[Paula Pant]

Putting the fun in fungible as you do, or listing out goal amount, timeline, and then doing one of three things. Extending the timeline, lowering the amount, or eliminating the line item.

[Joe Salsihai]

You, you have far more options than. Than people think, I think at first blush.

[Paula Pant]

Yeah, exactly. Well, Joe, where can people find you if they'd like to hear more?

[Joe Salsihai]

We just did a great week, Paula, on goal setting because of the fact that we're past the halfway point of this year and if you're like a lot of people, you wake up and you go, it's July. Where did the first half of my year go? And so we have a wonderful man, Gary McDermott, who was a naval officer, who breaks down this idea. We heard a ton. What's funny, the Navy uses this very simplified approach to goal setting to cut away all the fat, right? Multinational companies, billion dollar companies will use these very simple approaches to goal setting. We hear the same approach as individuals. We go, yeah, I don't think so. It's fine in my head. So he truly breaks down goal setting. That is on Wednesday and before that on Monday, we walk back through the amazing guest lineup that we had the first half of the year because we know, Paula, it's fun to listen to podcasts. It's great to hear all these incredible people mentor us on what we could be doing to get further ahead. But we ask the question as we walk back through some of the big themes from the first half of 2025. OG and I, have you done anything about it? So that's on the Stacky Benjamin show. And on Friday, the amazing Paula Pant. Also talking with our friends Doc G and OG G, the G's, Paula and the G's talking through again, a goal setting from a roundtable discussion. How do you set great goals? How do you make sure that you follow through on stuff? So that's goal setting week last week at Stacking Benchmans.

[Paula Pant]

Amazing. Well, thank you Joe for spending this time with us and thanks to all of you for being part of the afforder community. If you want to talk to other people in this community, and I highly encourage you to do so, go to afford anything.com community. You can talk to people, people about fungibility, about long term risks, about retirement, about debt, about college savings, about rental properties, about the stock market. You can talk to people about anything that's on your mind. That's afford anything.com community. Totally free. Remember to sign up for our newsletter. Afford anything.com newsletter where I share thoughts, ideas, stories that I don't share any anywhere else. You'll find unique things there. Afford anything.com Newsletter if you enjoyed today's episode, please share this with the people in your life. Share it with the people who sell you long term care insurance and long term disability insurance.

[Joe Salsihai]

Your HR director.

[Paula Pant]

Oh yeah. Share it with your HR director, particularly when you go and resign from the job that you have only tolerated for the paycheck. Share it with the colleagues that you're about to say goodbye to and share it with the people at your new job, the one that lights you up. Share it with your real estate agent when you go to buy a property because it makes sense on a spreadsheet, but not because you want to live there in 20 years. Share it with that real estate agent and the property manager and the contractors. Share it with the pest control guy and people who come and clean the gutters, the H Vac people, the electrician, the plumber. Share this with all the people in your life because that's how you spread the message of great financial health. Thank you again for tuning in. I'm Paula Pant.

[Joe Salsihai]

I'm Joe Salsihai and we'll meet you.

[Paula Pant]

In the next episode.