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Afford Anything | Get Smarter With Money
Rachel Rodgers: This Multimillionaire Started With $330,000 in Debt and a $41,000 Salary
01:37:19
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- [00:00]
Paula Pant
Most financial advice tells you to cut costs and live below your means. Today's guest did the opposite and became a multimillionaire. Rachel Rogers graduated from law school with $330,000 in student loan debt. And her starting salary was $41,000. So her debt was eight times her annual income. She took a look at that and realized she didn't have a spending problem, she had an income problem. So her solution wasn't going to be to cut costs. Her solution was going to be to earn more. And that's what we're going to talk about with her today. Welcome to the Afford Anything podcast, the show that knows you can afford anything, but not everything. This show covers five pillars. Financial psychology, increasing your income, investing, real estate, and entrepreneurship. It's double I fire. Today's episode focuses on three out of those five letters. It focuses on the letter F. Financial psychology because it's all about mindset. I, increasing your income because we just talked about that, and E, entrepreneurship. For reasons that will become obvious in a moment, we're chatting today with Rachel Rogers, the founder and CEO of Hello7, an award winning company that helps people build seven figure businesses, million dollar businesses, and create generational wealth. She wrote a book called we should all be Millionaires. That book has sold over 200,000 copies and it was named one of Audible's top audiobooks of the year. It's a bestseller on the Wall Street Journal, USA Today and Amazon lists. And her new book, future Millionaire, is dedicated to young people, people who are just getting out of school. Rachel has been prolific in the media talking about how to become a millionaire. She was on Good Morning America. She was on the Drew Barrymore show. And when she was in New York, she dropped by the Afford Anything studio to sit down with us for a deep, lengthy conversation on how anyone can be a future millionaire. This is her second time appearing on the Afford Anything podcast. Here she is, Rachel Rogers. Rachel, welcome.
- [02:01]
Rachel Rogers
Thank you for having me back. I'm so excited.
- [02:03]
Paula Pant
Thank you for being here. Rachel, when you graduated from law school, you had $330,000 in student loans, correct? Between undergrad and law school.
- [02:12]
Rachel Rogers
And.
- [02:13]
Paula Pant
And your starting salary was $41,000. So debt level of 330,000, salary of 41,000.
- [02:23]
Rachel Rogers
How.
- [02:26]
Paula Pant
And you and I were talking about this before you started recording. Often a person's debt is proportionate to their income, right? That is so disproportionate. Tell me what was going through your mind when you looked at those numbers.
- [02:37]
Rachel Rogers
Yeah, it was actually really scary. So all that debt to Be clear, was student loans. When you're in school, you just take out more for each semester as you need to, and you're not thinking about really anything else. Just getting through the semester, right? Making sure you can pay for it so you can keep going. And especially when you're highly reliant on financial aid. And by the way, that $330,000 was with scholarships. I had scholarships and big chunks of scholarships. And still being. Because in law school, you can't work. You have to, like, be all in. They actually don't even allow you to work, especially the first year, unless you have parents who can support you, which I did not. You have to borrow not only your tuition, but also your living expenses for law school. And then I would work all summer to, like, not have to do that in year two and three. But anyway, so lots of debt in undergrad. You take out loans or whatever. But I wasn't really thinking about it because I was going directly. Like, I went to law school, right? So then at the end of law school, it's like your final year, they take you into a room with several other students and they hand you a piece of paper, and it has your total amount of, like, student loans that you've taken out from undergrad and law school. Wow. Like, they put it all together into one document to just say, like, here's the summary. And I'm like, I didn't want to know this number. So, yeah, at that moment, it's very sobering because you're like, mother of God. You don't even realize that it's accumulating to that level. I really had no choice because there was no one in my family who was going to cover the cost of my law school. I did have an aunt and uncle who helped me out in undergrad because there was, like, a shortfall that I could not cover. I applied for grants, I got scholarships, I had financial aid. And I'm the type of person, too, who was always negotiating with the financial aid office. I'm like, I see your first offer. And while I appreciate that, I'd like to raise you to this, right? So I was constantly having. I don't even know. It's like, by necessity, I learned how to negotiate right as a young person. So I was always hustling these financial aid offices. Like, I know you got more back there somewhere. Like, I need another five grand. So anyway, after all of that, still I had that big debt. So, yeah, it was very sobering, very scary. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna Calculate my net worth and, like, put it all together. And I put all, like, everything, what I was earning and all of my expenses and just everything into mint at the time. This is back in the day. And it was like, you have a negative $330,000 net worth. And I was like, great, I'm glad I calculated that. I'm like, why did I do that? So, yeah, so that was very, very scary and overwhelming and how I solved it, which I'm sure is what people really want to know, because I'm sure there is somebody else out there who is making a small amount of money in earnings and has a large amount of debt and is like, how the hell am I ever going to tackle this? And the key was earning more. There was no amount of adjusting expenses because truly, I couldn't live off of $41,000 and put a huge amount of money towards debt. Like, that just wasn't an option. Honestly, even just paying the bare minimums on my loans was not possible on the $41,000 a year. So what I did was I deferred my loans and I did a clerkship when I first graduated. So I deferred for a year while I did my clerkship, which is where I was making the 41,000. And then at the end of that clerkship, this was all during the 2008 recession. This is all during a time when, like, the economy is not unlike today, where there's a lot of uncertainty, there's a lot of concerns and fear around the economy, in the state of the economy. And then jobs were scarce. So many graduates, like, all these law school graduates, flooded the market, right? And there were not enough jobs for us. And every day there was a new article about it. And, like, we don't need you to keep writing about it. We know. You know, So I did have some job opportunities that were offered to me, and they were all around, like, $60,000. 65, maybe 70. 75. Right. And I wanted to come out of law school and make six figures, right, so that I could really knock down these loans. And that's not what was being offered. And I just was like, what? This speaks to, like, the level of risk I was willing to take. But I was just like, I feel like I could do better by myself, to be honest. So I decided that I wasn't going to take those jobs, and I decided to go solo, start my own solo law practice, which my mother was like, why are we doing this? My mother was like, please take one of these jobs. And I'm like, I'm telling you, I have a plan. She's like, does this plan include salary? So I deferred for another year during my first year of starting my law practice. And during that time, I hustled to make more money. And in that first year, I made around 60,000, 65,000. Right. So I replaced my previous salary, was making a little bit more.
- [07:23]
Paula Pant
When you say that you made that in your first year, you mean was that gross revenue or was that what you could pay yourself?
- [07:28]
Rachel Rogers
That was.
- [07:29]
Paula Pant
You had to have overhead.
- [07:30]
Rachel Rogers
Yes, that was gross revenue, but I had very minimal overhead. So my overhead was malpractice insurance and business cards. Literally, I spent $300 in my first year. Because I was a recent law school grad. I still had access to, like, my school legal research, so I didn't have to pay for it yet, like the expensive software. My business was all about my service, so I really did not have any overhead other than my own as long as I could live. I was using my old busted law school laptop, whatever, of my old desk, and it was just me sitting down and doing the work. Right. And my network to market. So I was not spending $0 on marketing. So literally the only things I had to pay was, like taxes, right. And malpractice insurance, which I paid upfront for the year, and then business cards, and that was it.
- [08:20]
Paula Pant
Wow.
- [08:20]
Rachel Rogers
So I really didn't have much overhead. So Most of that 65,000 went into my pocket. Right. Just to live. So that was year one. And then in year two, like, I started to learn and figured out some marketing strategies to get more clients, because my clients all came from my network. I just reached out to my network and said, hey, I'm starting a law practice. Got my first set of clients from there and then from there, word of mouth and all of that. And then I also figured out how to hack help a reporter out, which is also was like a. Had its heyday during this time. And so I would just make myself available to journalists and say, like, hey, if you need a quote from a lawyer for anything, like, reach out to me. So I'd respond to everything. And once you start responding and you get a couple placements and they can see your other placements, they see that, like, you're a good source. And so then I just became the go to. And a lot of journalists would just reach out to me directly. And so I would get quoted in these articles. And that's how I would start getting clients as well. Again, all free, just legwork. I mean, my friend Robert always says, you got to do the footwork, right? Like, you got to do, like, the effort, right? So, so by year two of my law practice, I made $300,000, and that's when I could start really knocking down these loans, was when I hit that. So that is not common advice that you hear. Most people are not told, defer your loans. Right. And I'm not saying that's the right path for everyone, but I think we sometimes we spend so much time thinking about, like, how am I going to manage either this debt or just my finances in general? And there's a lot of time spent on managing it rightfully so. Right. We gotta manage it. But I feel like sometimes we underestimate our earning potential and more focus on our ability to earn more is where, like, I think we need to put more energy because we can say, like, okay, here's what I'm earning now, but what could I be earning? Investing in real estate, right? Like, you teach so many. Or building a side hustle. Like, where else can I get some extra cash, right, so that I can really not only cover my costs, but, like, have some joy in my life, spend some money on fun things, and also have money to really invest. And not just like the bare minimum investing, but investing beyond just bare minimum retirement. So earning more, that's how I did it. That was the key.
- [10:33]
Paula Pant
So take me, because I'm thinking of year two, right? You've just made $300,000 for the first time in your life.
- [10:40]
Rachel Rogers
Yes.
- [10:41]
Paula Pant
And at that juncture, you're at this crossroads because you could aggressively pay off your student loans, given that your business has had proof of concept. You could hire an assistant who can do some of that legwork for you so that you can focus on the unique value that you bring to the table rather than the heavy administrative burden that necessarily comes with running a business. You could build a website, right? Like, you could invest more in marketing. Like, there are all of these different choices that are at your disposal. And for the first time in your life, you now have the discretionary income to be able to make that decision.
- [11:20]
Rachel Rogers
Yes.
- [11:22]
Paula Pant
Walk me through your thought process then.
- [11:24]
Rachel Rogers
Yes. Well, it's not like I had $300,000 come to me at one time, right? So it's just like my monthly is going up and up and up and. And then I launched a product that really generated another $80,000. Like, I launched a digital product. So basically I had, like, a side hustle to my law practice, and that's really what took it to the next level. And so I did a little bit of both and that's kind of what I did. I was like kind of scanning, what are my options here. I was like, okay, this worked. Looking around like this is working, right? Is this money really mine? I think the thought process was just, okay. There's all these things that I need to do. What I wanted to do was just solve one big problem at one time, right? That is so appealing. It's so sexy to think I'm just gonna pay off these loans or pay off a huge chunk or I'm just gonna make this big move in my business. And I think sometimes we think too much in big bold moves and sometimes the slow and steady wins the race, as they say. And I'm, I am the queen of a big, bold move, okay? Like I, I'm all about big bold moves and sometimes that ain't the way. So what I decided to do was, okay, I'm just gonna reinstate my loans because they were in deferment all this time, so it was just not paying anything. I reinstate my loans and I get the salary adjustment kind of thing where I show them what I'm earning and then they recommend payments based on that. And so I was like, I'm just gonna get into the groove with paying this monthly. So I now start paying monthly. It was a four figure payment, so it was not like 700 bucks. It was like a couple thousand dollars a month. So I paid that monthly. And then I did hire an assistant. I hired a part time virtual assistant, so not full time. And then I made a couple of like investments in the infrastructure of my business. Because I knew like, if I buy this software here and that software there, it's going to actually save me a ton of time. And then that time can be spent getting more clients, right? So I could see the pathway to like how I could earn more if I did that. And so that's what I did. So I spread it around. I didn't like do anything huge with marketing in my business. I didn't make any huge moves with debt payments. I just was like, okay, I'm going to pay monthly on this debt and then I'm going to take on a new assistant that's also a new monthly expense. And then I'm going to make some moves here and there with like a little bit of infrastructure to make my life easier, so building some systems. So really it was like I got this CRM, it was expensive. I had to hire a consultant to set it up for me. But then that really Improved my workflow and made things faster. The software allowed me to get more done with one person instead of hiring more people.
- [13:59]
Paula Pant
Wow. So a little bit of everything. Yeah, all of the above.
- [14:02]
Rachel Rogers
Exactly. So it's like I spread it out and then kept going with it. And what happened was the digital product that I launched, Small Business Bodyguard, not only did it sell and make money, which was great, but it also. People would handle a lot of their legal on their own because it was all about, like, diying your contracts and stuff, but with guidance. So it was like clear instructions, templates, all that kind of stuff. And then they'd get to a certain point and they'd be like, okay, now I actually really need a lawyer. And so I would be the one to come to because they knew me from the product. So it really, like, not only did it sell, but it also brought a whole bunch of new clients to me. And it was, like, wound up being really good advertising and marketing for my law practice as well. So that allowed us to continue to grow from there. So. Yeah, I mean, we just kept growing every year for many years.
- [14:51]
Paula Pant
Right? Yeah. And I can see how they would tie together. Right. You've got a digital product, lower price point. It helps people diy. I'm thinking about the many other products that are on the market today that are similar. Right there.
- [15:05]
Rachel Rogers
Exactly.
- [15:05]
Paula Pant
There's trust and will, where you can. It's a digital product where you can make a trust. Or like you can. Right away, you can make an estate.
- [15:13]
Rachel Rogers
Yeah, exactly.
- [15:15]
Paula Pant
Where you can make an estate plan. But it's very DIY.
- [15:17]
Rachel Rogers
Yes.
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Paula Pant
And maybe you'll go down that road. You're 27 and you have zero dependence.
- [15:23]
Rachel Rogers
Right.
- [15:23]
Paula Pant
So you go down that road and you're like, okay, this is fine. I'm glad with what I've got. Or maybe you start going down that road and you're like, what? I do want an attorney.
- [15:30]
Rachel Rogers
Right.
- [15:31]
Paula Pant
And so I can see how one would feed into the other.
- [15:34]
Rachel Rogers
Exactly how many?
- [15:36]
Paula Pant
Because you must have. As you were developing that product, you must have had other ideas that you rejected.
- [15:43]
Rachel Rogers
What was it that you didn't do that's so interesting? What didn't I do? So a lot of things that I was considering. Just let me paint the picture for the timeframe, too. This is. Virtual law offices are completely new. Okay. So I was one of the first attorneys to have a virtual law office. There was probably less than 10 in the country when I started. So this was not a common thing. Most. Most lawyers were still practicing with a brick and mortar Office locally, like that. And so this is all like a totally new landscape. A lot of people are very scared to wade into it because they think, oh, I'm going to accidentally violate a bar rule and all of that. So like, that's kind of the landscape. There's not a million different options for diying your legal online, right? There's very few. There was basically like one main corporate option that was very popular, that was running commercials and all that, but outside of that, there was really no other options. So it was just very different than it is today. Now it's exploded and there's so many options. So one of the things that I was seeing in the market, I, I had worked in my clerkship in family law and so I was like, what if I did like a website where you could do uncontested divorces? And it's like I might have to do all the legwork myself in the beginning, but then eventually I'll like build a team and build a process to really tighten it up and help people. Because one of the things I noticed working in family law is that there were people who are very low income and they got a lawyer appointed for them so they could get, go to legal aid, get help with their family law issues, right? And then there were middle class people who had good jobs but still couldn't afford 350 an hour for like a legal issue that is gonna take 10, 20, 30. They don't know how many hours it's gonna take. And every month it's just like the bill gets bigger. And it's very scary for them to try to fit that into their budget. And they really felt like they couldn't afford it even though they were squarely middle class. But they also did not qualify for legal aid because they made enough money. They made a certain amount of money. And so I was like, there's a marketplace here for people who are not rich and can't afford attorneys, but they also don't qualify for legal aid. There's like a middle ground here of folks who want their stuff handled. They went to college, they're smart, and if they had some guidance, they could figure out how to represent themselves and get through this. Relatively simple transactions. Not super complex cases, obviously, but the simple transactions are the ones that are in the courts all day long. But you also, it's so easy to do it wrong when you're representing yourself and you have zero knowledge. And so I saw that as a huge opportunity. And I was like really toying with the idea of going with that. So I was doing business law for entrepreneurs, and I was like, do I go into family law instead? And I would, like, take a couple family law cases. And I was just like, really torn about, like, which niche to go all in on. So that's part of what was happening. That's one of the things I was thinking about. The other things I was thinking about is offering mediation. Because I had studied mediation in school, I had a certificate in IT from my law school. And so I was like, I could offer mediations and I even like looked into offering it. So there was like a lot of different, like, sort of niche options and like sort of things that were kind of like solving legal problems, but not with litigation or not with full blown, full service, hourly lawyer retainer. And so I was looking at several different options there and struggling with which one to go with. Right at that time in the 2008 recession, part of it was also because so many people were graduating from school or had been in corporate for a couple of years and got laid off. And so they had severance packages, so they had some cash and they had no job. And it was not easy to replace those jobs at that time. And so they were starting businesses in droves. That's what ultimately made me say, stay focused on business. Because I had so many friends who were getting laid off and had severance packages and were using their severance packages to start businesses. And they needed contracts, they needed to form their entity, they needed to protect the IP that they were creating. And so it just felt like the opportunity was right there in my face. And so that one felt more accessible. It was just like right there versus the other ones. These were all great options. All of them could have been multimillion dollar businesses, but that was the one that was there. That was the one that was exciting to me and I was interested in. And I would talk to, again, a lot of people who were starting businesses. They could not afford my hourly rate, right? Like, they couldn't afford to hire me full time, but they could afford something. And so that's when I was like, huh, what's a way to do that for legal? Like, the same idea I had for uncontested divorce is, how can I do that in the business law space? And that was small business bodyguard. So I actually did a test of it. So I taught a class live. And I was like, the live class? Isn't it because these people don't actually want to know how to practice law. They just want to solve their problems, right? And it was Just, it was even boring for me to teach, to be totally honest. But the content is great. People love the contract templates. People were interested in it, but it was like, this doesn't need to be live. So I was like, okay, let me actually write it down. So I took the transcripts from the course and put it in written form and then just edited it and turned. It was essentially like a 300 page book with contract templates and all of the things that you need and all the instructions. So that's ultimately how I landed on that.
- [21:03]
Paula Pant
Wow. What strikes me, because we began this conversation by talking about your debt.
- [21:07]
Rachel Rogers
Yes.
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Paula Pant
Right. Your debt, which was disproportionate to the income that you were offered.
- [21:11]
Rachel Rogers
Yes.
- [21:12]
Paula Pant
And what strikes me is that your path to earning more was to take a lot of risk and to do things that were very unconventional.
- [21:19]
Rachel Rogers
Yes.
- [21:19]
Paula Pant
And for which there wasn't any kind of a path. And. And the time frame that you're talking about, like, so I also started my business shortly after the 2008 recession.
- [21:29]
Rachel Rogers
Yes.
- [21:30]
Paula Pant
And that was a time when, as I also know from memory, far fewer people were doing this kind of thing.
- [21:37]
Rachel Rogers
Oh, my God. Yes.
- [21:38]
Paula Pant
By a lot. I think today, if you were to say, okay, we're. I'm going to pursue this path, if someone straight out of college or straight out of law school said, I'm going to go into business for myself online, it wouldn't be as weird as it was back in 2008 or 2009. 10, 11.
- [21:57]
Rachel Rogers
Yes.
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Paula Pant
Right. What gave you the fortitude? And really where I'm going with that is what would you say to anybody today who is struggling with the courage, the fortitude, the gumption to go into business for themselves?
- [22:13]
Rachel Rogers
Yes. Well, I think for me, part of it was really the alternative was not acceptable to me. Continuing to be broke was not an option for me. And continuing to make 41,000 and then maybe 50 and then maybe 60 and then slowly but surely earn more. I saw that life and I was just like, I don't want that. I want to make a lot more right now. What did I have to lose? Like, I was low income growing up. My family did not have a lot. So I knew how to be poor. I knew how to be broke. I knew how to make a dollar out of 15 cents. I knew how to hustle to just get through to make sure you eat. When I had my first job out of college, right before I went to law school, I would like pay my electric bill. I worked for a nonprofit, So I made $36,000 a year at that. At that job, which I felt like was so much money. But they paid you once a month. So you got paid at the beginning of the month. You pay your rent, you pay your basics. And then it's like, okay, towards the end of the month, you, like, barely can eat because you're waiting for the next. And that's just really what it was. And, like, all everybody that was junior employees at that organization, we all have the same struggle. And the cool thing was the organization fed us because it was a. It was a homeless shelter and, like, soup kitchen. And so we would eat there. Towards the end of the month, everybody would be eating there. So which they allowed the employees to do, which was great. So, like, we always ate. So one of the things that I would do is, like, I would call the electric company and be like, hey, give me 30 days and I'll pay this. And they would give it to me, and then I'd pay the cable bill that month, and then the next month, I'd pay the electric bill, and then I'd say to the cable bill, hey, can you give me 30 days? Like, I could not afford everything at once. But I knew how to hustle, right? So this is where I'm coming from. And I think while it was a risk for sure, and it felt like a risk, I think it didn't feel as terrifying to me, because I just felt like the alternative was unacceptable. Like, to me, it really wasn't a real path, because I knew what that path looked like. I saw other people on it, and I was just like, I don't want to struggle for the next 10 years. I'm like, I went to a lot of school. I paid a lot of money for these loans, and I need to get my money's worth right out of these degrees. What I mean, and get my full earning potential out of these degrees, regardless of what's happening in the economy. Like, that is not enough to stop me. So I think that's part of it. It was just like, it's such a decision. Honestly, more than anything else, it is a decision based on your commitment to the vision that you have for your life. And you have a certain vision for your life, and you're just like, okay, I know these circumstances are all happening around me, but I'm still committed to that vision. And so what is it gonna take to make that vision happen? It's not like I took this risk just jumping off a cliff. I interviewed all of these solo attorneys, anyone who would talk to me to Say, okay, what did you do? How did you start? How did you make your money? How did you get your first clients? What kind of money are you making? Did you make in your first couple of years? So, like, I would just talk to anybody who would. I called all these virtual law offices. So the 10 that existed at the time or less, I called every single one of them, just cold called them and said, hey, will you answer a couple of questions for me? I'm thinking about doing the same thing. And they were all willing to talk to me and tell me what they were struggling with, what was working really well, what wasn't working. And so I did my research, right. And gathered as much information as possible and took that information and put it into a plan. So it's not like I just jumped off a cliff, like not knowing anything, but I did. I was willing to go there because I was just so committed to making sure that I lived a good life and money is part of that. Real money.
- [25:40]
Paula Pant
Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.
- [25:44]
Rachel Rogers
So what I would say to anyone who is thinking about becoming an entrepreneur or taking a risk in whatever way career related so that they can earn more, I would say, do your homework, do your research, put together your plan, and then trust your plan and go for it. Because I have seen it work out so well for so many people now. Does it always 100% work out? No. But I think the thing that makes it more likely, if you want to guarantee, the closest guarantee you're going to get is you. How committed you are, how willing you are to show up, how willing you are to learn new things, how willing you are to be uncomfortable in the process and be like, I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm going, how willing you are to ask for the sale. Hey, would you like to hire me? Right? Can you say those words? Can you say them repeatedly? Can you get rejected and then go say them again? Because that's a big part of it. And I was just kind of like, it's either ask for the sale or not pay your rent. So we're going to ask for the sale. Right? And I also did not start out like this. Like now I'm a loudmouth. But when I started, I was very mousy. Like, if you go back and look at early days of my YouTube channel, when I first started, I got on YouTube, like, I think in my second year of my practice, just trying different things to market, which by the way, worked like gangbusters. But in those videos I'm literally like hiding behind My hair. And I'm like, whispering because I'm like, did I want people to hear me? No, I did not. I was just so afraid to be seen, but also so committed to my dream that I'm like, I'm just gonna do it afraid. And that's what I encourage people to do. And also, just trust yourself. You're smart, you're capable. These people who have big, successful businesses, they're not any smarter than you. They're just more courageous than you.
- [27:21]
Paula Pant
And as you said, do it afraid.
- [27:23]
Rachel Rogers
Yes.
- [27:24]
Paula Pant
It isn't even that they lack the fear. It's that they are afraid, and they just do it anyway.
- [27:29]
Rachel Rogers
Exactly. They're willing to face that fear and just go for it. So. And I think, honestly, it's one of the best things you can do in your life, is confront your fear. Because when you do, it's just like, it opens up the world. And you see there's so much more possibility than you realize because you're just unwilling to try something that scares you a little bit. Right. And if you're just willing to try it and it works out for you, or even if you learn something from it, then it's like whatever that next fear is in some other part of your life, you become more willing to face that too. And I think that's how we get the fullness out of life, to be honest, we're alive. We're on a journey. Right. And I think sometimes we just want everything to be perfect. But go live your big, messy, beautiful life. Take risks, Go on an adventure. This is part of living. And I think if we make everything so routineized and so scroll social media, and so I only see these friends, and I never leave my neighborhood, and I never leave this job, even though I'm ready to go, get out there and live. If nothing else, let's say you fail spectacularly, you have amazing stories to tell, and you can always get a job you hate. Yeah.
- [28:30]
Paula Pant
Yeah. That was exactly what I told myself also at that time. Okay, the worst case scenario is I get a job. Yes, the worst case scenario.
- [28:41]
Rachel Rogers
Exactly. And the other thing I will say, too, speaking of that, with entrepreneurship, I wanted these big law jobs. I wanted jobs with, like, a great, like, law firm or a boutique law firm that paid well, that I could do great work and work with great people. And when I was a couple of years in, so, like, in my second and third year of running my law practice on my own, I started to get those job offers. People started to reach out, Firms started reaching out to me. And say, like, hey, would you be interested in joining our team? And I considered some of those options, but they couldn't pay me as much as I was already making. And I was just like, no, I'm going to continue to see this through. But, like, sometimes entrepreneurship is the path to the career. And you can see it, right? Like with. In entertainment, we see it where people start YouTube shows and then they get the show picked up by a network, right?
- [29:25]
Paula Pant
Yeah.
- [29:25]
Rachel Rogers
Or musicians or whatever, Podcasters. Right. You like, you're podcasting and then you get picked up by a big media company. So, like, doing it just DIY yourself for a while can actually get you noticed by these companies that you want to work at. So it can be a path to just getting a better job.
- [29:42]
Paula Pant
Right. There's even that term aqua hire.
- [29:45]
Rachel Rogers
Yes, exactly. Yes, exactly.
- [29:49]
Paula Pant
So an aqua hire, for the listeners who aren't familiar with this term, it is when a business makes an acquisition for the express purpose of hiring, typically the founder, and oftentimes the founder plus key members of that team.
- [30:03]
Rachel Rogers
Yes.
- [30:04]
Paula Pant
So oftentimes a business, a larger business will buy a smaller business just for the sake of hiring.
- [30:11]
Rachel Rogers
Yes, the talent.
- [30:12]
Paula Pant
The talent.
- [30:12]
Rachel Rogers
Yes, exactly. Because that's how big businesses grow with talent. And so that is a great way for you to get noticed as well. So I think follow those inklings when you just. When something is on your heart and you have this idea and it just won't let you rest. Because I know we all try to, like, swat it away, no, no, no, no, let me enjoy my regular life. But it just keeps nagging you. Then it's just like, you just gotta listen to that because it's just gonna harass you for the rest of your life. So you might as well just go do it.
- [30:38]
Paula Pant
You're right.
- [30:40]
Rachel Rogers
It's like, okay, I give in. I'll give it a shot. And you don't have to quit your job, start a side hustle, get it going on the side for a while. Like, you don't have to be without salary while you work on making something happen.
- [30:50]
Paula Pant
Right. I have a couple of friends who have had a few health scares. Those have brought a lot of sharp focus into light. And one of the things that it brings to light for anybody who has other people who rely on your income is that some life insurance can ensure that your loved ones have a financial safety net that they can use to cover the mortgage or debts or other routine expenses if the worst were to happen. With Policygenius, you can find life insurance policies starting at just $276 a year for $1 million in coverage. It's an easy way to protect the people you love and feel good about the future. So the thing about life insurance is that it's not something that you buy for you. It's something that you buy for anyone who would be financially harmed or who would be put into a financial bind if something were to happen to you. And it can be used to cover any outstanding medical expenses, funeral costs, mortgage payments, college costs, bills that would otherwise be a burden. PolicyGenius allows you to compare quotes from America's top insurers side by side for free. And they have a licensed support team that answers questions, handles paperwork, and advocates for you throughout the process. And they'll help lay out all of your options so you understand coverage amounts, prices and terms. Secure your family's future with Policygenius. Head to Policygenius.com to compare free life insurance quotes from top companies and see how much you could save. That's policygenius.com in the past, there were summers where I would buy summertime clothes, and they would only last for a season. As I've grown older, I've come to really value clothes that are well made, they'll last for years, and that are affordable when you buy them. And that comes from Quince. So if you're refreshing your summer wardrobe, look to Quince because they've got 100% European linen shorts and dresses starting from $30, men's and women's clothing, they have swimwear and sandals. And everything with Quince is half the cost of similar brands because they work directly with top artisans and cut out the middleman. So you get the luxury without the markup. And Quint only works with factories that use ethical and responsible manufacturing. So you have the trifecta of high quality, affordable and ethical. Personally, my favorite summertime quince clothes are all silk based. For work. I've got silk blouses, silk shirts. They also have a really lightweight, perfect for summertime cashmere tee. It's perfect for when you're sitting in an office in air conditioning. I'll wear the cashmere T shirt, short sleeves with a silk skirt. So it's put together, it's professional. We're talking cashmere and silk. So it's really wonderful fabrics and it's elevated and elegant and affordable. Through Quince, I finally have clothes that I care about because I know that everything they sell is made to last. It's made to last for years, not just for a season. So it's very much the opposite of the fast fashion that we see today, which I appreciate. So give your summer closet an upgrade with quince. Go to quince.com Paula for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com Paula to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com Paula P A U L A I live in an apartment in Manhattan, so I have no outdoor space, not even a balcony. My building has a common area. But in spite of all of that, I do find myself missing the privacy and the personalization of having your own outdoor space. So if you have that, make the most of it. And you're one thing, stop shop where you can make over your entire space and give it a resort feel but at an affordable price. Is Wayfair. Wayfair has everything you need to level up your outdoor space. We're talking structures like gazebos and pergolas. We're talking seating like outdoor sofas, Adirondack chairs. We're talking dining tables and sets, bar stools, grills, outdoor bars. We're talking decorations, decor like umbrellas, fireplaces, heaters, string lights, outdoor rugs. I mean anything you could possibly imagine, even hot tubs and fireplaces, all of it is available at Wayfair. They really have everything that your outdoor space needs. It's truly a one stop shop no matter what your budget, no matter what your style is. I've used them to shop indoors for my apartment, but you can use them to make your outdoor space a dream space. And there's free and easy delivery even on the big stuff. I mean you can get a hot tub shipped to you for free. So don't wait. Make your outdoor space your dream oasis today with Wayfair and enjoy it all summer long. Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop a huge outdoor selection. That's W-A-F A I R.com Wayfair Every Style, every home, foreign. As you were talking earlier about living like a big, audacious, adventurous life.
- [36:01]
Rachel Rogers
Yes.
- [36:01]
Paula Pant
So a lot of the people who are listening to this are people who are interested in financial independence in early retirement.
- [36:07]
Rachel Rogers
Yes.
- [36:08]
Paula Pant
How would you take some of the same principles or ideas and apply it to that framework?
- [36:14]
Rachel Rogers
Yes. Well, I'm a big fan of fire as well. And so I also am on my own path of reaching fire. Right. And so I have a certain level of fire that have already reached. But like I want another level. So I'm working towards that.
- [36:27]
Paula Pant
Yeah, there's so many. There's Lean fire, there's Fat fire, right?
- [36:30]
Rachel Rogers
Yeah, I'm more of a fat fire type of girl. But there is a certain level that I've already reached. This is a pathway to get there. Like earning more is part of financial independence, right? Because then you get to take those earnings and say, okay, what assets do I want to purchase? What income producing or cash flowing assets can I purchase that can allow me to gain financial independence? Right. So that has been part of my journey as well. So as my business has earned more, I have been able to take some of that, the profit in the business and put it in other assets like buying real estate that cash flows and then also obviously investing in the stock market significantly as well. I've also invested in tech startups, which is a more risky investment.
- [37:14]
Paula Pant
That's what I'm getting into right now is private investing, investing in private businesses basically. And that is like so much fun.
- [37:21]
Rachel Rogers
Oh my God, it's so fun.
- [37:22]
Paula Pant
Yeah.
- [37:22]
Rachel Rogers
And you get to go to the board meetings and like share your ideas and support this business growing. But you don't gotta show up and do the day to day, right? If you've ever been a CEO, you're like, mm, this is a lot of work being a CEO and a founder. And so it's so fun to be in the behind the scenes, to be able to advise, to be able to support, to use your network or your skillset to help that company grow without having to show up every day and creating like just opportunities and pathways for that company to grow. And yeah, that has worked out for me. I've invested in a couple of companies and one of them in particular is doing exceptionally well. That investment has grown by, I don't know, almost 50% in three years. So huge, huge returns. And so obviously I don't want all my stuff in there because that's relatively risky. But I have other things. So diversifying and having other sources of cash flow so those earnings, you can use them to like structure this lifestyle. And that's what we've discovered. We were like, huh? We actually already have enough from real estate, from book royalties, which is another, I guess, type of ip, right? Like it's my intellectual property, I've sold it and I continue to get book royalties for years to come. And so those book royalty payments are now significant enough, especially with several books where like between the book royalties and my rental income from my house, I literally can just live off of that, which is so cool right now. And then it's like, okay, great, Now I can use profit from the business to like, tackle other things. So it's just like, I actually think earning more is how we get to financial independence. It's a. It's a great pathway to get there. And there's so many different things to do. And it could be fun. Like, I encourage people to, like, make the earning process fun. It can feel like a hobby. Right. Like, if you enjoy buying real estate and fixing it up yourself and furnishing it yourself and creating this whole vision and. Or managing an Airbnb or whatever, however you want to do that with real estate can be fun. Right. Or investing in other businesses can be fun. Some of these different. Writing a book and like, having that be a source of additional revenue that you don't have. Passive revenue. So I think creating these passive revenue streams or even creating a side hustle can feel like a hobby you get paid for. And I think choosing something that feels like that for you is really smart and it's a strategic way to do it.
- [39:39]
Paula Pant
Right, right. Because. Yeah, because then you're excited about it. You show up for it more. It is. Especially in the beginning when you're putting in really long hours. That's what gets you to the next level.
- [39:49]
Rachel Rogers
Yes.
- [39:50]
Paula Pant
And so pick something that you can. That you want to put in really long hours.
- [39:54]
Rachel Rogers
Exactly. That feels energizing for you. You're. That you're excited about versus something that drains you.
- [40:01]
Paula Pant
Right, right. But how do you deal with the isolation? Because so much of that is screen time. How do you deal with that? That isolation?
- [40:09]
Rachel Rogers
Yeah, I think it's important, just have balance always, no matter what. So, like, this entire journey, even when I was hustling, I always got my eight hours of sleep. Like, I always was getting my sleep. I was very rarely working, like at night or I did have an issue with working on the weekends early on, like, where I just struggled to like, not get something done on the weekends. But what I started doing was I would, like book activities. Right. Like, I'd book family stuff, personal stuff, time with friends on the weekends. So, like, I couldn't work cause I was busy with other things and that took me away. And then I'd have my best ideas, like being out with friends, walking through the park, or going to a museum or whatever other activities we were doing. And so I realized how much my creativity was really fed by that time off. If you're working full time and you want to do a side hustle, choosing something really strategic is so critical so that you don't choose something that's going to take up another 40 hours. Like you don't want a second 40 hour a week job. So something that you can make a good amount of money in a couple of hours a month. Like for small business. Bodyguard. I was sitting there writing for about two or three months it took me to write and put together that whole program. And so like yes. I was like really just sitting in my house. Like my kids were hanging out or whatever. They're watching their shows and I'm sitting there like just typing away right next to them. And so like that's what it looked like for a while and I was very committed to getting it done. Then I got it done and then I continued to make really good money from it. Tens of thousands of dollars every month for years from that one time that I put in that three months of effort on the weekends, in the evenings or during lunch or whatever, whenever I could get it done. So it's like there is always going to be some upfront effort. Like you're. No one skips that part right now. No one I know of. I don't have that secret.
- [41:57]
Paula Pant
Yeah.
- [41:59]
Rachel Rogers
So yeah, that initial effort. And the thing is you might feel a little isolated for a little while, but obviously don't go. Don't let it go on too long. Get her done so that you can move on and start to enjoy the spoils of that labor.
- [42:10]
Paula Pant
Right. On one hand there's the need to stay lean, especially in the beginning.
- [42:14]
Rachel Rogers
Yes.
- [42:15]
Paula Pant
On the other hand there's the need to delegate so that you can grow. How do you when to stay lean and when to delegate. Like when do you do it yourself? When do you hire? How do you balance that?
- [42:26]
Rachel Rogers
Yeah. So honestly, I usually advise my clients like around the six figure mark. You hit six figures and you're growing beyond that of gross or of gross revenue. Yes. That, that is around the time like 100. Honestly, I feel like, and the research shows this that Once you hit $250,000 in annual revenue in a business, if you don't start hiring, that's going to be your ceiling at that point. It's critical. Like by 250 you've got to have. And I don't mean when I say hire, I don't mean two hour a week va. Right. I don't mean like a couple hours a month contractor. I mean a full time administrative assistant. As your first full time employee, you want to grow a business, Hire your best employee and assistant. Guess who's your first best employee? It's you. So hire yourself an Assistant and you're going to be able to almost double your output from just getting all of this stuff off your plate, like getting the mental load off of your head. So I think that's a great time. I think prior to that it's really like you probably are just really hiring part time contractors like under six figures and which is how it should be, truly. And what I would do is like I really did everything myself early on. Unless I ran into something that I could not do or it was just like for me to learn it myself would take so long and like delay money coming in, right? So it's like it's better just like it's almost like doing the math like anything else, right? If I spend this money within this frame of time, like I'm gonna get this time back. I'm gonna get this off my plate, I'm gonna get this time back. And what is getting that time back gonna enable me to do? Now? I'll give you an example. I was probably, this was like somewhere between the 60 and the 300,000, right? Like probably that year of 300,000. But I didn't know I was making that much yet. And this was before Small Business Bodyguard launched. I was just working in the business all the time and hustle, hustle, hustle. And it's like that question of, okay, do I hire a va? And I finally just went for it because friends of mine advised me to do it. And I was like, okay, I'm going to try it. I'm going to try it for one month. I'm going to commit to pay for it for one month. And as soon as I hired her, the first thing I had her do was respond to inquiries, right? So like we'd have incoming people saying like, hey, I'd like to hire you, can we set up a call, whatever. And I was taking too long to respond to them. So then I would lose them by the time I responded. I'd never hear back because they already found somebody else to solve their problem. And so that's what I had her do. Immediately. More money started coming in the door literally like this by the second week because I put her on it. And did she do it exactly the way I do? I would do it? No. But she did it fast and consistent. So they would hear from someone the same day, within hours, sometimes within minutes. And that would just get them in. So they would get the consult booked, they'd have a call with me, and now I have a good chance of closing that person. And. And so we just Immediately started making more money and I was like, oh my God, like, why did I hire her sooner? So like, literally just one client paid for her for the month. This was not full time. This was like probably 5 to 10 hours a week somewhere in there that I was paying for. But like one month of her pay for that five to ten hours was solved with one client, which she immediately got me within two weeks, right? And then after that it's all profit. So like I get one client a month that covers her costs, and then everything after that is just money I wouldn't have earned without her. Sometimes we think so much about costs and we're always like, how can I lower costs? How can I lower costs? How can I lower costs? And I get that. But I think we also have to think about opportunities. And what opportunities am I saying no to when I lower this cost? If I lay off this team member, right? Or if I don't hire this person, what opportunity to generate additional revenue is also going away. And so make sure that's part of the math equation as well. Because trust me, I'm the first. I love to save money, I love to cut a cost. But the reality is like, sometimes you cut costs and you're like, I'm actually losing. And I'll give you an example. We had this happen recently. Not a cost we cut, but we had a team member leave and because she had personal stuff going on. And so she was just like, I need to like take some time off. And so she left and she was someone who managed particular marketing campaign for us. And so now we have a marketing director. And so the marketing director is managing that campaign, but the marketing director also handles sales to some degree. Right? And so we had our typical marketing campaign that we do where we used to have an admin person, like project manager type person who was handling the all the pieces of the campaign and the marketing director was handling the sales piece, while the marketing director is now handling both, which she's capable of doing. But then I watched like the results were not the same and we were like, what changed? I'm like, I know exactly what changed. Our marketing director could not focus on the sales and therefore the sales dropped significantly because she was trying to handle both. So it's like, now we have it and I mean like dropped by like 50%.
- [47:13]
Paula Pant
Wow.
- [47:13]
Rachel Rogers
You know what I'm saying? So paying this person this monthly salary and she's a full time employee with health benefits and all the things, her total cost is worth every penny. Because now this campaign's Dropped, which is hundreds of thousands of dollars, right? So now we're. I mean, we knew it and it was like not something we could solve. She left suddenly because of a personal thing. Well, was not. We didn't want her to leave, but. And we're actively trying to replace her, but it's not always fast, right? So it's like instantly costing money. And so sometimes it's very obvious like that. Other times it's not. But I think it's important to dig and really say, when I let go of this, what is it gonna do? And it could be even simple things like, okay, my gym membership, I could cut that cost and just go for walks or just work out at home. And then it's like, are you gonna do it though? Right? And so like, okay, I cut my gym membership, but now I don't feel as good every day. And now I don't feel like working on my side hustle. Cause I have less energy. And it's like, girl, just pay the $100 a month for the gym and get that energy back. So we have to look at both sides of it and that will help us make the best decision.
- [48:15]
Paula Pant
Right? So. So you mentioned we focus so much on costs. Why do you think that is? Like, do you think that we take the template of how to manage our budget in our personal life and erroneously apply it to business spending?
- [48:26]
Rachel Rogers
I think so. I've always had help for years around the house, and if I let go of that help, I'm sure it would absolutely impact my ability to earn a living. Right? And even if you have a full time job and you're working towards getting a raise, and now you've got more on your plate at home, and now you're coming into the office tired and you're not showing up as sharp in the meetings or you're not as prepared as you usually are, your chances of getting that raise are now slimmer. It absolutely affects our earning potential. That's why I'm always talking about boundaries. I'm always talking about your time, always talking about your decisions that you're making, who you're hanging out with. All of that is impacting your earning potential. So I do think it's important, like even in your personal life to look at both sides, right? And you could take this the other way too. So let's say you're considering buying a house and it's like, okay, I could buy a house that's 100% of my budget, or I could go a little bit above and splurge A little bit and hustle for that money or whatever. Just be tight in other areas so that I can have my whatever, dream home or the nicer house, even that has another side to it, right? It's like, it's not just the cash. It's like, what is the mental load of having to be really tight with your budget now because you've taken on this bigger expense? Everything has costs that are not just cash. So I think it's important to look at the dollars and cents, do the math on that, but also look at, okay, what are these dollars and cents also impacting? And how's that going to enable me to show up? What's at the core of this type of thinking is recognizing that you are the asset. You are the asset. And that's why I say I don't care if you grew up low income like I did. I don't care where you're from. You absolutely can become a millionaire because you have this asset which is you, right? So, like, what talents were you born with? What natural skills do you have? What experience do you have? What are you good at? What creative ideas do you have that you can bring value to other people's lives, right? So, like, you are the asset. So you should study this asset. And part of studying this asset and knowing how you can add value is also knowing what are your limits, right? What do you have energy for, what gives you energy versus what drains you? Understanding this asset that is you fully is so critical because then it's like, okay, now I know if I take on this side hustle, I'm going to make less money because I'm going to get tired real quick. Whereas if I do this, I'm going to be energized by it. I'll make more money, right? Like, these things are important and they impact our numbers as well. Like, they impact how many dollars we get in the door. So I think that's really the core philosophy that I have, is that I am the asset. And I have that philosophy because I had nothing. I had no network to start with. I had no resources. I had no nobody giving me money, no money. But what I did have was me and my ideas and my talent. And I could put that together. Like, what was I good at when I was young? I was good at school. So I'm like, okay, I'm gonna use that. Go to school, get a degree. Okay, great. Now I've got the degree. Now I've got this skill set, this marketable skill. Now I'm gonna take this marketable skill to the marketplace and make money from it. And so it's all coming from you. So recognizing yourself as that asset and protecting yourself as that asset, just like we protect our real estate and take good care of it or we protect our portfolios, it's the same way we need to protect ourselves as an asset.
- [51:34]
Paula Pant
Earlier, you gave the example of, hey, you know what, if you're not rested enough and you're not showing up as your full self, then maybe you're not going to be as good of an employee. Which means that when you go to ask your boss for a raise, they might say no.
- [51:48]
Rachel Rogers
Right.
- [51:49]
Paula Pant
Because you're just not as good of an employee as you could have been.
- [51:52]
Rachel Rogers
Yes.
- [51:53]
Paula Pant
Let's talk. We've talked in the first section of this about entrepreneurship, but in this latter half, I want to talk to everyone listening who is currently a W2 employee.
- [52:04]
Rachel Rogers
Yes.
- [52:05]
Paula Pant
Who wants to get a raise.
- [52:06]
Rachel Rogers
Yes.
- [52:07]
Paula Pant
Let's unpack everything that we need to do starting. Starting with how to be a better employee.
- [52:12]
Rachel Rogers
Yes.
- [52:13]
Paula Pant
And moving to then how to make that ask or have that negotiation. So let's start with, as you first brought this in, being that better employee, what do you do to lay the groundwork before you even go in for that negotiation conversation?
- [52:29]
Rachel Rogers
Yeah. So, one, I think, first of all, understanding the company that you're at is key. Right. Like, where am I? What is this company trying to achieve? What is the goals of this company? And even thinking like, you might have to, if it's a really large company, you might have to think the department. What's the goal of our department? And what is my boss's job? And what is my boss stressed about? What is my boss worried about? What are the numbers my boss needs to hit? And how can I make that a priority? How can I not only do my job and check off all the items on the list, but be thinking strategically about how can I support my boss? And hitting their numbers and making sure that their goals are hit? Because that's really how you make yourself invaluable. So, like, having a full understanding of what's going on here as much as humanly possible. And part of that is asking, finding those right moments to ask, saying, hey, can we go to lunch together today? I just want to. I want to chat with you because I want to see how I can be more supportive. Finding out as much as you can about how much you can be helpful. Right. And then really, it's as simple as be helpful. Be helpful, be that reliable person that is thinking ahead and anticipating Needs is so valuable and then also just always being game, right? And does that mean take on all this additional work when you're not getting paid for it? Sometimes? Honestly, yes, for a little while. Now, don't allow that to go on for a long time. But part of it is showing what you can do, right? Part of it is. Think about it, it's marketing, right? So imagine that there's a lot of people that will write a book or do podcasts, or create all this social media content. It's marketing, right? So you're creating a lot of value for people. You're helping people with a lot of things and you're not getting paid for it, but then putting it out there allows them to then find you and then maybe say, yes, I do want to hire you, right? So I think thinking of taking on additional tasks in the same way, like, I'm gonna do it for a little while to show you that I can and to show you how much value I can bring. And then we're gonna have a conversation about how you're gonna pay me for that additional value that I'm providing. Now, you don't wanna be adding that additional value for years and not getting paid for it. Clearly, I'm talking months here, not years, right? Do it long enough until that conversation comes up for your review. And in the review, say, these are all the things that I can point to, right? So it's almost kind of like, have the end in mind and say, okay, what is the raise that I want, right? Or even the position that I want to work towards? And then how can I make that known? And how can I get projects related to that and do a really good job with them so that I'm creating that track record so that when it. When we have that conversation and I say it's time for me to have a raise, and my boss is like, why are you deserving of a raise? I'm like, here are all the receipts. You know what I mean? And I'm armed for that conversation. So, like, lay the groundwork for that conversation before you ever get in there. That's how I would think about it. Just like, show up and be useful, be helpful, be reliable. Because when it's time for layoffs, you do not want to let go of the most reliable person on the team, right? Like your. Your right hand or the person that's your go to. You're not trying to let them go. You're going to do whatever you can to save them, right? So be that person.
- [55:37]
Paula Pant
Yeah, that reminds Me. So I'm reading right now. The book I'm reading right now is the 48 laws of power.
- [55:41]
Rachel Rogers
Yes.
- [55:42]
Paula Pant
By Robert Greene. Oh, my goodness. So good. This should be required reading for everybody.
- [55:46]
Rachel Rogers
I agree.
- [55:47]
Paula Pant
Wow. One of the laws of power is make others dependent on you. And that's what I thought of when you said, when it's time for layoffs, you never let go of the most reliable person.
- [55:59]
Rachel Rogers
No. Because they are dependent on you. And they're like, I can't live without this extremely helpful, reliable person. The other thing that makes people reliable, too, when I think about people on my team, truly, pretty much my entire team is like this, where they're not just gonna do the tasks on their list. They're gonna think through what's the most strategic and advantageous way to do this task? What are the other tasks related to this that maybe someone is not thinking about that I need to bring to the table and say, hey, I'm gonna do this. But I also noticed that. Is anyone handling this? Have y' all thought about this, this, and this? Right. So now you're seeing the problems before they become problems, and you're bringing them and saying, like, if no one's on this, I can take care of it. Or here's the person who I think can do this and I can collaborate with them. Right. Like, solving problems. That's really what we're at work to do. Right. So look for the problems and solve them. That's really. That's what makes you invaluable.
- [56:52]
Paula Pant
Right. Well, and that's a very different way of thinking, because to your point, a lot of employees come in and say, all right, I'm going to execute these tasks. Yes. I've seen a number of people just like, they come in, they're task executors.
- [57:07]
Rachel Rogers
Yes.
- [57:07]
Paula Pant
But they're not problem solvers.
- [57:09]
Rachel Rogers
Right, Exactly. So it's kind of like add some strategy to the task execution. Yeah. Get that to do list done. But think through what's beyond the to do list. What's next in this project? What part of this project do you see that's not being handled well? What opportunities do you see that are not being taken advantage of? And part of that is taking a risk. Right. Because I think sometimes people just execute the task because they're like, oh, I don't want to overstep. I don't want to overstep. I don't want to inconvenience. I don't want to put myself out there and then be rejected. Right. And I think you have to. It's. It's true with entrepreneurship. It's true as an employee as well. If you want to get the maximum out of your career, you're going to have to take some risks. And that risk might be knocking on your boss's door and saying, hey, can I run something by you real quick? And to say, like, hey, I'm working on this project. I noticed this, this, and this. Please let me know if I'm overstepping. But I just wanted to raise it in case it might be helpful to blah, blah, blah. And then they're like, okay, thank you. I didn't know that. Thank you for bringing that to my attention. Let me think about what the best way to solve that is. And you can say, well, if I may, I've got an idea. Now you're solving. You've done the thinking before. Your boss has to do it. So that's an approach. And you can always do it in a way with like, hey, let me know if I'm overstepping. But I noticed this. But those people who are willing to step up and take the risk, and they might say, like, actually, I did think about that. We don't need to do that, but thank you. Even the thinking, even the willingness to go the extra mile, even if it's not an idea that your boss wants to take advantage of, it's showing them that you're going beyond the to do list, you know, and then they're going to start to rely on you and say, like, now, instead of just giving you a task, they might give you, like, hey, we need to solve this problem, but before we even get there, I've been trying to do research on this, and I just don't even have time. Well, you research all the options, give you narrow down to the three that you think are the best solutions, and then present that to me. Then I'll hear the options, and then I'll tell you which one to go with. And then you will do that part too.
- [59:06]
Paula Pant
Right.
- [59:06]
Rachel Rogers
So now you're not just getting the task, you're getting the thinking and the strategy related to the task as well.
- [59:11]
Paula Pant
Exactly.
- [59:11]
Rachel Rogers
And that's how you get paid more.
- [59:13]
Paula Pant
Right? Well, and as an employee, you should be eager to take that on.
- [59:15]
Rachel Rogers
Yes, exactly. And if you're not, you might be in the wrong profession and it might be time to, like, find a career where you can get excited and hype about it and you're energized by work. If you can be energized by your work, the ability to make more money becomes so much easier because you're not reliant on discipline. Like, I just have to show up, and I've just got to do it. I just got to power through. That's not how I show up. I show up to work like, what are we doing today? How fun. Let's go. Everything that I'm doing is highly connected to my natural talent. So it's just fun. It's easy. It's stuff I would be doing anyway, even if I wasn't getting paid. And that's why I say study yourself. Take personality assessments, take career assessments, Understand how you like to work, because that's going to help you find that right fit. And now there's no job that's going to be a hundred percent just a joyride. Right. Like, there's always going to be grunt work. There's always going to be some part of it that's a slog. Like, that's part of it. But if you can get closer to 80% of your work is exciting and energizing instead of draining, that would be a game changer for your career. Right.
- [60:16]
Paula Pant
And one thing, I want to highlight one thing that you said because you talked about being proactive about noticing problems or noticing elements that need to be solved.
- [60:25]
Rachel Rogers
Yes.
- [60:25]
Paula Pant
But don't just bring the problem to your boss. Also bring the solution.
- [60:29]
Rachel Rogers
Yes.
- [60:30]
Paula Pant
I've definitely seen people who. They bring the problem. They're great at bringing the problem all day long. And it's like, great. Do you have any solution?
- [60:39]
Rachel Rogers
Yes.
- [60:39]
Paula Pant
Because. Because after a while, it just starts to sound like a long list of problems.
- [60:43]
Rachel Rogers
Yes.
- [60:44]
Paula Pant
And I'm like, yeah, I've noticed these, too. Do you have any solutions?
- [60:48]
Rachel Rogers
Right, exactly. And if you think about it, right, if your boss is running a team, if everybody's pointing out problems all day long, someone's just constantly bringing that person problems. Right. And that person maybe doesn't even have the time to think about the solutions. And so it just becomes overwhelming and frustrating. And so, yes, like, it's essentially. Honestly, it's not unlike entrepreneurship in that you want to have empathy for your target market. You know what I mean?
- [61:13]
Paula Pant
Yeah.
- [61:14]
Rachel Rogers
So it's like, who is my ideal client? Your ideal client in this case is your supervisor, whoever's in control of the race. And it's like, okay, what are they struggling with? What are their pain points? How can I have empathy for what they might be experiencing in their workday? Cause I think a lot of people just automatically hate their bosses or see them as an enemy or someone to Avoid or someone that is in the way of them getting what they want. And it's like, okay, well, maybe see it through their eyes and recognize them as a human. And, like, what are they struggling with? And having empathy for them and saying, like, okay, here's how I could help. Support them and then support them and expect that support to come back reciprocally. And if it doesn't. Right. Then find a new job with a new boss, you know? But if you're working in the right place, that should come back to you. So I actually train. This is part of our onboarding for every team member that if you bring me a problem, you must bring me three solutions, and then tell me which one is your favorite. Which one do you think we should go with? And it's now to the point where my team brings me a problem. They tell me the three options, and whichever one they said is the one to go with, that is what I go with 90% of the time. Unless I've been through this kind of scenario before. And I know that that won't work. I always give their solution a shot because they're closer to the issue than I am. And so, like, they're seeing all the pieces that I'm not necessarily seeing, and I trust them on it. And then that way it gets to either be their win or their loss. And if it's their loss, great. Now you've become valuable to me as an employee because you've made a mistake and you will never forget it. You've learned from it. Right. So now you're even more valuable. I don't want to send you somewhere else. Stay here. And then if you get the win, it's like, now you've got a huge win under your belt. That gives you confidence. Right. So either way, it's a win for me.
- [62:55]
Paula Pant
Right. What else is in your training with your new employees? Like, what else do you want your new employees to know?
- [63:00]
Rachel Rogers
Yes. So I have a whole document called how to Work with Me. Wow. It's like how to Work with Rachel. And it just tells them my leadership style. It tells them, like, our company values, what I expect of my leaders on the team, how to learn something new. Because I used to get the excuse. Well, I don't know how to do that. Great. I don't know how to do half the stuff I've done in this business. Like, when I first started, I'm learning new things all the time. I'm having to figure out how to do new things all the time. And so here's how I approach learning something new. And so I have that structure in there. Which decisions to bring to me versus which decisions to make on your own. Right. We have like a whole matrix for that. So it's just like a lot of things like that that is letting them know how I think and then also too, how I am as a person. Like, I am not a micromanager by any means. So I hire people who are autonomous, who want to be in control of their projects. Because if you want me to, like, sign off on every little bit, we're not going to enjoy this working relationship. I'm like, I want you to do it and then call me when you need me kind of working relationship. So I want to be very honest about who I am and how I show up in this business and what the philosophy and the values of this company are so that they can decide, is this the right place for me. We tell every new team member, this is a 90 day onboarding. We're still assessing whether you're the right fit and you're still assessing whether this is the right fit for you. And if it's not, cool, no hard feelings and in fact, I'll help you find your next thing. If it is a fit, great. But let's be like really honest with each other about what our expectations are and whether you feel like you can meet those expectations and whether I can meet your expectations. So I just want to be as upfront and transparent as possible so people know if it's the right fit. And we've definitely had people come in, interviewed well, we felt like they were a good fit. And in the first 90 days they're like, this isn't for me. The pace doesn't work for me. It's too fast paced or I don't like so much autonomy or whatever. There's just different things that don't fit. So all of that. And then of course, we have a lot of training material for our clients and our employees go through that training material. So they know our content, they know who our ideal clients are. They read my books as part of the onboarding. Like, basically it's like a study of hello7 in the first 90 days. And that really helps them. Now they have a ton of context to be able to take on their job because that's what I want them to have. I don't want them to just do their job and be like, these are tasks that I'm getting done in isolation. No, I want you to understand the full picture of where we're going and what we are collectively looking to accomplish so that they can see, okay, these tasks. I can see how they relate to the ultimate goal. We want them to understand their role in the machine. That's part of the onboarding as well. And then it's also just like letting them do the jobs. And we also make it like they get three check ins a week with their supervisor. When they first start, you have tons of questions, there's a lot of uncertainty. That's just more support in the beginning. So that's part of our training process.
- [66:01]
Paula Pant
Think about, you know, you're on your living room couch, you're scrolling, you're shopping online and you see this big purple button, right? The purple button says shop pay. You've seen it, it's purple. You know that button, it's everywhere and it's super. If you've been a customer who uses it, it's super easy to use views. Well, that purple shop button comes from Shopify and there's a reason that so many businesses sell with it and it's because Shopify makes everything easier from checkout to creating your own storefront. Shopify is the commerce platform behind 10% of all e commerce in the US from Mattel and Gymshark to brands that are just getting started. And it gives you a leg up from day one with hundreds of beautiful ready to go templates that you can use to express your brand style without needing to know how to code. And you can track inventory, payments, analytics, they have built in marketing and email tools. And of course there's that iconic purple shop pay button that's used by millions of businesses around the world. And it's why Shopify has the best converting checkout on the planet. If you want to see less cards being abandoned, it's time for you to head over to Shopify. Sign up for your one month, $1 per month trial period and start selling today at shopify.com Paula go to shopify.com Paula shopify.com Paula so this morning at 7:45am Joe and I are scheduled to start recording at 8am we're on a tight schedule because I've got to go to the dentist right after that and he's actually leaving to go out of town. We're 15 minutes away from recording. I've got to clear the SD cards and I've got these big spotlights you speak like softbox diffuser lights and one of them just completely collapses. And I've got like less than 15 minutes before the shoot's supposed to start and I'm Just scrambling, trying to put Humpty Dumpty back together again. And it was one of those moments where you're looking around at your business and you're looking around and you're like wow. Life in general can be chaotic. But for those of you who are business owners, especially for those of you who run any kind of e commerce business, like you know that it's its own special kind of chaos. That's why you need tools within your business that you can count on for your day to day remaining calm. And Shipstation is one of those. Shipstation allows you to save hours every month and to save money every month by shipping from all of your stores. With one login, you automate repetitive tasks, you find the best rates among all of the global carriers and you never need to worry about shipping and fulfillment again. Afford anything. We are not an E commerce business, but we have dabbled our toes into selling products in the past. I don't know if you recall, but back in 2018 we were selling T shirts for a little while. We've had internal discussions around maybe selling like a planner, a calendar year planner in January. And in everything that we've looked at, we've been very impressed with Shipstation. So one thing that I like about it is that you never need to upgrade. Shipstation grows with your business no matter how big it gets. And you don't have to upgrade once you hit a certain size. It's the fastest, most affordable way to ship products to your customers. You get discounts of up to 88% off of UPS, DHL Express and USPS rates and you get up to 90% off of FedEx rates. So calm the chaos of order fulfillment with the shipping software that delivers. Switch to Shipstation today. Go to shipstation.com and use code Paula to sign up for your free trial. That's shipstation.com code Paula P A U L A.
- [69:30]
Rachel Rogers
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Because Progressive offers discounts for paying in full, owning a home and more. Plus you can count on their great customer service to help you when you need it. So your dollar goes a long way. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save on car insurance, Progressive Casualty Insurance company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations.
- [70:17]
Paula Pant
We talked about how to be a good employee.
- [70:19]
Rachel Rogers
Yes.
- [70:19]
Paula Pant
Now it's time for an employee to ask for a raise.
- [70:23]
Rachel Rogers
Yes.
- [70:23]
Paula Pant
What are your recommendations? When it comes to how to approach.
- [70:27]
Rachel Rogers
That negotiation, one I would look at, okay, what's going on with the business? Did we just come off of a win? Because if we've just come off of a win, that is the best time. Like, don't kick a dog when it's down. You know what I mean? So if your company is struggling, if targets are not being hit, if it's hard economic times, that may not be the best time to ask for a raise. I'm not saying it's absolutely out of the question during those times. I've given raises recently and the economy is not doing great. But really look at what is happening in the company is like, step one, you want to time it when the company is on a high, if at all possible. So that's one piece to consider. And then again, track record. What are you bringing to the table to so show what you're bringing to the table. You want to show like, okay, these are the projects I did. These are the ones, like, we just did this, where we send out, like, a form to our team periodically. Where we just say, like, hey, what are you enjoying about work? What are you not liking about work? What could be better? It's just a series of questions. Where do you see yourself in a couple of years? Lots of questions around work that we ask them to fill out. And one of my employees in the list and, like, share some wins that you've had recently. That's in there. One of my employees put every win she had, which was like a list of 25 wins. She had so many wins that she talked about, and I've forgotten all that she's gotten done. And that's the problem. Your boss will too. So make sure you tell them. Because if you don't tell them, it's not that they don't care or they don't value. It's that they got so much going on that they're not able to focus on it at the moment. So get them to focus by getting it in front of them and show them what you've done. Show them what the track record is. And so she was showing me just like, what she had gotten done in the last six months. And I was like, oh, my God, this woman deserves a raise. So before she even asked for one, I gave it to her. You want to make sure, if your company's not asking you, and especially if you're going into an employee review, walk into that review with your list and don't be afraid to take up space. Give them the whole List. Okay. I don't care how long it is. The longer it is, the better. Because then you're really making a case for why you aren't valuable. And also you could say like, hey, this is what I would love to do, but I feel like I can't. In my current role, I'd love to have the authority to make these decisions. So I could just take this off of your plate for you. Someone trying to take something off my plate is music to my ears. Okay, so these are some of the things to think about for that conversation. But making sure that you've got your track record ready. And then also do your research, like, what is the standard salary in your area for your role? What's the salary range for the job that you have? And if you're wanting to go beyond that, okay, make a case for why you are better than 90% of the people in your role out there and how you add value to the company. Understanding market research as well. Doing a little bit of that. So there's a lot of prep and then using that to figure out what your number is going to be. Once you've timed the conversation. Right. Then email your boss or reach out to them and say, like, hey, can we set up a meeting? I'd love to have a conversation with you about what's next for my career and then go in there and just ask for the raise. Your boss expects you to ask for a raise from time to time. They're not gonna fire you for asking for a raise. The only time that asking for a raise creates red flags for me is if I feel like the employee is completely not self aware and they're not winning at work and they're not meeting expectations and they're not aware that they're not meeting expectations and they're asking for a raise. That's a red flag. Like, okay, you don't actually know that you're doing a terrible job, which is concerning because I know I told you, you know, like. Cause I'm very upfront about it. So anyway, so that would be the only time. So just make sure you really. And if you're somebody who's always late, is not reliable, is always saying no when you're asked to do something you do not have that track record, then asking for a raise is probably not a good idea because the chances of you getting it are pretty slim. And instead maybe you want to go somewhere else where you actually want to commit to the. To the work that feels more aligned. Right.
- [74:20]
Paula Pant
Many companies have built in annual performance Reviews?
- [74:23]
Rachel Rogers
Yes.
- [74:24]
Paula Pant
Should this conversation you talked about ask when you're on a high?
- [74:29]
Rachel Rogers
Yes.
- [74:30]
Paula Pant
But how do you do that in a context where your company has an annual performance review? Maybe they do annual cost of living adjustments. When I was at a newspaper, we had once a year a cost of living adjustment that would range between 3 to 5%, depending on your performance.
- [74:46]
Rachel Rogers
Right, right.
- [74:47]
Paula Pant
And so that was considered everybody's raise, so to speak. Yes, but the raise was so limited, and it was okay. Either you're going to get 3%, in which case you've just kept up with inflation.
- [74:58]
Rachel Rogers
Yes.
- [74:58]
Paula Pant
Or maybe you'll beat inflation by 1 or 2%. And the only time to ask was at the holidays, because that was the one annual time.
- [75:06]
Rachel Rogers
Yeah.
- [75:06]
Paula Pant
What would you do in a situation like that?
- [75:08]
Rachel Rogers
If you want to maximize your earnings from your skills and your labor, then being someone who's just always in compliance, I don't think is aligned with maximizing your earning potential. Because most people are not going to maximize their earning potential. Most people are going to take what they get and call it a day. So you got to be willing to be a bit of a rebel and go outside of the system. Sometimes there's a system, but you don't always have to work in it. Like, I gave a raise this spring. It was not in the middle of the annual reviews necessarily, but it made sense to me and we had the capacity to do it, so we did. You don't always have to do it that way. And so what I would say is, you have a big win and you're going into the summer and the first half of the year, you've absolutely crushed it. Ask for that conversation then. And even if you have to wait till the annual review to get the raise, you want to preempt that conversation. Because by the time you get to the annual review, they've largely already made their decisions and they're just informing you about it in a big way. So if you can preempt that conversation and say, let's have a conversation about my career. And I know we have annual reviews at the end of the year, but I'd love to check in now because I just want to share what I'm thinking and I want to get your feedback, you can ask for feedback and say, like, hey, here's what I'm seeing in my work. Here's how I'm adding value. Do you agree? And you can even say, you could just be straight up and say, like, hey, I really see myself in this particular role, or I really would like to be earning more. What do you need to see from me for that to happen? I love for an employee to ask that, because then I'll tell them. I've had people come to me and say, hey, I'd really like to be earning significantly more than I am. Here's the number I really want to get to. What do I need to do to do that? And I'm like, okay, here's exactly what you need to do. You're doing this, this, and this really, really well. If you could also take on this, or if I could see you take that to the next level, or like, this is your weakness, and if you work on that and strengthen that up, then I can see how that's gonna help this company make more money where I can then have the money to pay you more. So, like, I will happily name the specific things that will make it easier for me to say yes to a big raise like that. So ask. Just have the conversation. I think when we're afraid to have those conversations is the problem. And also, too, like, let's say you have the conversation, it doesn't work out the way you want. Great. You got the experience. You did it right. So, like, now you're more prepared for the next time that you do it. You can definitely ask for the conversation. And it's not about like, give me a raise today, but it's like, I want you to know that I'm looking for more money and that I'm looking to show you my value, and I'm looking for you to show me that you value me. So it's kind of like, now I'm aware and the. And your boss is aware. So now they're thinking about, okay, what do I need to do to get this person a raise as well? Because they understand once you've asked for a raise, if I can't do it this year, and that becomes a conversation every year, I know eventually you're going to leave. Maybe you're not going to leave right now, but you're going to leave in the near future. You're going to start looking for something else. And if you're invaluable, I don't want that to happen. Really put some effort into developing a rapport with your boss where these conversations feel less scary. Like, treat them like a real person. Ask them to treat you like a real person as much as you are in control to do that for how you show up. And just, I think the more you can build that trust and build that relationship, the easier these harder conversations Are.
- [78:28]
Paula Pant
How a lot of jobs are virtual.
- [78:31]
Rachel Rogers
Yes.
- [78:32]
Paula Pant
How do you build that rapport in a context where you're working, perhaps with a fully remote team?
- [78:37]
Rachel Rogers
Yes. It could just be as simple as like, hey, how was your vacation? What did you do this weekend? Here's what I did, right? Like just being willing to like shoot the shit. Really? A little bit like just being willing to have some conversation and like just a little bit more of connection and with really anybody if you're trying to develop relationships with people is like, look for the commonalities. What do you have in common? Do you have kids the same age? Did you grow up in the same area? Did you go to the same school? Do you like the same basketball team? Right. Like find your in and, and it could be like, are you both into fashion? And you can say like, oh, I discovered this new brand, I'm gonna send it to you. I feel like you'd love it based on what you wear. Like, I love when the young people on my team help me be cool. I mean like help hook me up. Tell me what's the slang. I want to learn this cool slang. I want to know what it means. Like I want to know the cool brands, what's hot right now, what's not, what's trending. I'm probably not going to do half those trends, but I want to know about it.
- [79:36]
Paula Pant
Yeah.
- [79:37]
Rachel Rogers
So, yeah, so like just find ways to like points of connection so that you can just build that into conversations. It doesn't have to be long, but just a little bit all the time where you're enjoyable to connect with and talk to. I think then you're going to get more out of those conversations.
- [79:53]
Paula Pant
We've talked about entrepreneurship. We've also talked to the people who are listening, who are W2 employees who want to get raises, want to earn more. But let's talk family.
- [80:03]
Rachel Rogers
Yes.
- [80:03]
Paula Pant
You've got four kids.
- [80:04]
Rachel Rogers
Yes.
- [80:05]
Paula Pant
How old are they?
- [80:06]
Rachel Rogers
24 is the oldest and the youngest is 6. So. And then I have a 12 year old and a 13 year old.
- [80:15]
Paula Pant
Wow. Oh, that's a, that's a very one of everything. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Tell me about the 24 year old. In terms of launching.
- [80:26]
Rachel Rogers
Yes.
- [80:26]
Paula Pant
In terms of how, how they are launching into the world.
- [80:30]
Rachel Rogers
Yeah. It's so important. Right. And it definitely impacts your finances as a parent, your kids ability to go figure it out because otherwise they stay asking you for money. And I actually saw a stat recently that I was floored by 2/3 of adults under the age of 43 years old, 43. I'm 43. So 2/3 of adults still ask their parents for money. They're unable to get by financially without asking for some money from their parents. And I think if you're a parent of a teenager or a college student, a young adult, that's pretty scary because you're like, at what point are you getting out of my house now? At what point can I stop paying for your life that impacts your ability to put money away for retirement or just downsize if you want to once your kids are out of the house. So yeah, so I think it's, it's important. But yes, for ours, that's what we did with her. We sort of are like, hey, if you're not going to go to college, then you got to have a plan. And the plan can include sitting on our couch.
- [81:31]
Paula Pant
Yeah.
- [81:31]
Rachel Rogers
For the rest of your life. And so we slowly but surely sort of pushed her towards independence. And I think that push is so necessary. Once she got a full time job, it's like, okay, great, now we'd like you to start paying rent. Like, you can keep living here, but you need to pay rent. And we're not gonna charge you market rate, but I want you to get accustomed to paying monthly for your housing.
- [81:51]
Paula Pant
How old was she when you started charging her rent?
- [81:53]
Rachel Rogers
I wanna say 19.
- [81:55]
Paula Pant
Yeah.
- [81:55]
Rachel Rogers
And so she was actually, of course she was like, you don't love me, you know, And I'm like, no, I do love you. And that's exactly why I want you to get accustomed to the real world. Right. Like you're an adult now. Because I think kids these days, it's like it's doordash this and Uber that. Like they don't even touch money. So it's like there's not this awareness that every time I order doordash or like an Uber that the balance is going down. It's like to them it's just this never ending balance. And at some point you as the parent have to make sure they're aware. And it can't be when you're mad because they're not listening then. So that's what we did. We charged her rent and guess what she did? She was like, okay, I'm gonna move out. If I'm gonna pay rent, I might as well move out. Exactly. That was the point. She's had starts and stops. Like, she gets a job, it works out for a while, then she leaves or whatever, she gets laid off or something. And then she's looking for another job. And so we said, okay, great, here's what we're going to do. We're going to pay. We pay for health care. We were paying for her cell phone for a while. I cut that off. My husband was, like, willing to pay for it for a long period of time. I was like, shut it down. Okay. But we. We pay for health care. We pay for therapy. If you ever want to go to. We have a family therapist. So it's like, whenever you want to go to the therapist, that's fine. We'll pay for that. And literally that's it. We don't pay for anything else. So that's what we. But we slowly backed. First we started charging her rent. Then we said, okay, you've got to pay for your own cell phone bill. And then we were like, she left the house. And then we were like, okay, we're not going to continue to pay these different expenses that I notice you have pinging my bank account, you know, every month. So you're gonna take these on, right? We're gonna ease you off over this period of time, and by that time, it's all you. But we will continue to pay for healthcare and we will continue to pay for therapy, and that's it. Everything else is on your own. If you're in school and you need help with school, let us know. She's switched schools a couple of times. And so in that process, it's like, okay, you need help with books, we'll help you out. But she went to school and she was like, dropping classes after the period. So you've paid for the class.
- [84:00]
Paula Pant
Oh, yeah.
- [84:01]
Rachel Rogers
But now she's not getting the grades. And I was like, no cut.
- [84:04]
Paula Pant
Nope.
- [84:05]
Rachel Rogers
Nope. So it's like, there I have rules about what I will pay for, and it's pretty limited. And it has to be something that's actually improving your life. I'm not paying for you to hang out with your friends. And so she's become an adult in that process, and I think a lot sooner than a lot of other young adults that I see. And it's because we were willing to basically cut her off in a gentle way, but still cut her off.
- [84:32]
Paula Pant
What strikes me as I hear you talk about your oldest daughter.
- [84:36]
Rachel Rogers
Yes.
- [84:36]
Paula Pant
Versus when I hear you talk about your own young life, is that life cut you off at a young age? You know?
- [84:45]
Rachel Rogers
Exactly. I don't think that I would be the entrepreneur that I am today. I don't think I'd have the career that I have, the income that I have. I don't think I would have the success that I have if I didn't learn how to deal with hard things. I think we as parents, unfortunately try to avoid any challenges for our children. And it's like. No, no, no. Like, the whole point is for them to be challenged with support and then with decreasing support as they get older and older. Right. Like every passing year, there's a little bit more that you're letting them handle on their own. There's a little bit more not swooping in for certain things. Right. Slowly but surely. Like, the goal is their independence, and that includes their financial independence. And so at some point, you have to make it sink or swim because they will try to stay forever. That's what the stats show, is that they are staying. Now, is it totally their fault?
- [85:39]
Paula Pant
No.
- [85:39]
Rachel Rogers
I mean, we have the housing market being what it is, inflation, student loan debt, all of these things are colliding. And their wages are not as high as their parents were. So they don't have the buying potential. Or even if it looks like it's as high, it's not because of inflation and all these other things. They don't have the buying potential that their parents had in their early 20s. People were buying whole houses. I talked to a woman the other day who went to law school, I wanna say, in the 80s. She said she paid $3,000 for law school. She said she would work over the summer. Sorry, not law school, med school. She'd work over the summer and that would pay her tuition for the year. Right. Those days are so gone. Right. And so they're dealing with very real challenges. And they do need a financial plan to help them with that. And their whole financial plan can't be us forever because it's just not realistic. And also, if you think, like, it is absolutely gonna impact your ability to save for retirement and the other moves that you're trying to. Your own ability to get financial independence if you're supporting your kids in their 30s, and now these stats are showing till early 40s, at some point, pay for your own life. You know what I mean? I've done my work. Okay, well.
- [86:47]
Paula Pant
And again, that's what strikes me. So you didn't have. You just didn't have that option. So your father passed away when you were 14?
- [86:54]
Rachel Rogers
12.
- [86:54]
Paula Pant
12. Yes, when you were 12.
- [86:57]
Rachel Rogers
Right.
- [86:57]
Paula Pant
And so your sister was supporting the family. Your little sister.
- [87:01]
Rachel Rogers
Exactly. And yeah. Right. And so I had that example of. In front of me of like, a young person who was making it happen because she had no choice. Right. And our kids have choice, and we love that. But I think we need to take some of those choices away because otherwise there is a real failure to launch because they don't have to. I have friends who are very successful, who grew up in families where they were very well off or very comfortable financially and their parents also were like, go get a job. At a certain point when they finish college, it's like time to get that full time job. And I'm not paying for your life anymore. I'm going to help you for a period, there's going to be a weaning off period, but then after that you're on your own. And like, call me in an emergency, but don't be calling me every week to pay your regular bills. You've got to make that work. That's where you learn real financial skills. Right. Of like how to manage your money and how to make it all work and what moves you need to make. Now, do you want your kids in the most desperate situations? Of course not. They're going to call you way before that. But you also don't want them in the most luxurious. Right. Which is living off of your labor for the rest of their lives or for another decade when they complete college. The thing is, they don't want to live with you. They want to go start their own lives. They want to have their own home, run their home the way that they want to. They want to have their independence, they want to have a career, they want to be successful. And so we need to give them the tools to show them how to do that. Today, in this day and age, what we were told or what might have worked for, especially baby boomers, is not available to them. They need a path to make it happen. And I think it's important that we allow them to struggle a little bit so that they can see that they can figure it out. And then when they figure it out, it's their win. And that builds their confidence. Right. And so I feel like it's really important.
- [88:48]
Paula Pant
So of your four kids, the oldest is 24, the youngest is six.
- [88:52]
Rachel Rogers
Yes.
- [88:53]
Paula Pant
Do you see any differences, like the way that they understand money at that age versus when your oldest was six?
- [89:03]
Rachel Rogers
Yes.
- [89:04]
Paula Pant
Right. Which was 18 years ago.
- [89:06]
Rachel Rogers
Yeah.
- [89:06]
Paula Pant
Do you see any differences over massive, real. Okay.
- [89:09]
Rachel Rogers
Huge differences. I saw a meme the other day that said, like, each one of your kids is having a completely different childhood. And I think it's completely true. The only ones that probably had the same childhood are the two that are close in age.
- [89:21]
Paula Pant
You said 13 and 12.
- [89:22]
Rachel Rogers
Yes, exactly. So they are 19 months apart. And so they had a very similar childhood. But the little one, he came in and we were already rich. He doesn't know struggle, right? Like, he's like, struggle. What is that? Whereas the oldest, she watched us building this and she did see lots of struggle. We were still struggling, or not struggling, but we were still building as she was like in high school, right? So she got to see something different. And the ones in the middle, it was almost like optimized, right? Because your first child, you're doing your best and you're figuring it out and you're probably still building your career in a lot of ways, and you're learning. And then the next ones come and you've learned so much from the first one that you're tweaking your methods now. And financially, we were definitely more comfortable. So that was also part of it. But one thing that was always true for all of them is we always sent them to the best schools that were available to us. Of course, as we had more money, better schools were available. But that was the first thing I spent my money on. So even my oldest graduated from an amazing private school because as soon as I had any extra, like my first set of extra went to amazing schools because, like, education was everything. That was the game changer for me. So it was like my top priority. So they all went to amazing schools and that's the same. But for sure, I think their understanding of even money. The other thing too is I changed, right? Because I learned so much more about money. Like now what I know. Yeah, I'm writing books about it, right? When I was still getting these lessons with my first. So I talk about money in front of my kids a lot when we're making big financial decisions. I tell them why we're making it. I ask their opinion and let them weigh in. Even if I'm not going to go with what they said, I still want them to just be a part of the family financial decision making process. Because otherwise, how are they going to learn? They have zero experience with money. Right. I also pay for grades with the 13 and under, which we didn't do with the oldest. We gave her an allowance, but I think it would have been better if we paid for grades. So, like, I. I do performance based bonuses on my team and I'm like, I'm gonna bring that to my family. So you get a performance based bonus when you bring home A. So I pay $100 for every A and I pay $1,000 if you get all A's.
- [91:37]
Paula Pant
Ooh.
- [91:38]
Rachel Rogers
And then they are required to invest half of that money, and then the other half of that money they can spend with whatever they want. So go make stupid decisions, because, like, I want you to make those decisions so you can feel the weight of them with this small amount of money, rather than when you're an adult with a larger sum of money. And so they're just getting a full financial education that I did not have, even just mental capacity. I was so tired. Right. I didn't have the capacity with the oldest, but now she does. We've had lots of conversations, of course, about money still as she's gotten older, but we weren't having these conversations when she was really little, so I think that's kind of cool. And like, my youngest, he has gotten allowances, and he goes and he wants to go buy a new dinosaur. So he gives the money and he gets the change. We make him pay in cash so he can see the change, you know, and get that back. And so, like, he's interacting with money in a way that the other ones didn't when they were his age. So I think, like, the more we can talk about money with our kids, the more we can make financial decisions in front of them, the more we can give them some money and let them manage it on their own so they can have the experience of that and then have conversations about, do you regret that decision? Are you happy with that? Purchase, that kind of thing? I think that's really valuable to give them that education, because otherwise, where are they going to get it? Like, you don't want to wait until they're 25 before they're actually learning about a dollar and what it means.
- [92:58]
Paula Pant
Well, Rachel, thank you for spending this time with us. Where can people find you if they'd like to learn more?
- [93:02]
Rachel Rogers
Yes, you can find me on Instagram. RachelRogers, Esq. I also have a podcast called the hello 7 podcast. So if you're interested in becoming an entrepreneur, that's a great place to learn more about it. And if you're interested in my latest book, it's called Future Millionaire, especially for young adults and teens. So if you've got young adults or if you have a graduation coming up, it's a great gift. So go to futuremillionairebook.com and you can get all the details about getting your copy, where books are sold. Great.
- [93:27]
Paula Pant
Thank you so much.
- [93:28]
Rachel Rogers
Thank you for having me.
- [93:32]
Paula Pant
Thank you. Rachel, what are three key takeaways from this conversation? Key takeaway number one, focus on earning more rather than cutting expenses. Rachel faced $330,000 in debt on a $41,000 salary. And yes, her salary would have increased in subsequent years. But the only reality that we have is the one that we live in in the present moment. And in that present moment, she had a salary of $41,000 and debt of $330,000. Her debt was eight times her annual salary. She didn't try to penny pinch her way out, because that would have been ridiculous. Instead, she focused, she zeroed in on increasing her income. Because that's the second I in F I R E. Increasing your income has a much, much deeper impact, a bigger impact, not just on your financial life, but on your circle of influence, on your happiness, on everything. Increasing your income is so much better than trying to penny pinch your way to success. There's a reason that the F in F II R E stands for financial psychology rather than frugality. You cannot shrink your way to greatness, but you can, with the right mindset and the right habits and the right systems, increase your income. Use that to make investments. Use that to buy real estate, and use that to catapult yourself into entrepreneurship, if that's what you want to do. Remember, just like with regular fire with financial independence, retire early. The R and the E, the real estate and the entrepreneurship, those pieces are optional. They're there for you if you want them, but you don't need them. But the F and the two I's, those are foundational financial psychology, which is mindset. Increasing your income and investing those pieces. The phi part is foundational and the phi part is for everybody. And the R and the E, those are options. So going back to the lesson that we learned from Rachel, she embraced the letter F by shifting her mindset towards abundance, towards earning, towards income, and then focused with all her effort into earning more. And that's what allowed her to tackle her debt aggressively rather than just make minimum payments for decades.
- [95:54]
Rachel Rogers
The key was earning more. There was no amount of adjusting expenses because truly I couldn't live off of $41,000 and put a huge amount of money towards debt. Like that just wasn't an option. Honestly, even just paying the bare minimums on my loans was not possible on the $41,000 a year that is the.
- [96:12]
Paula Pant
First key takeaway focus on earning more rather than simply cutting back. Key takeaway number two at work, make yourself indispensable by understanding your boss's pain points. Rachel gives the perspective of a CEO of a multi million dollar company. And she explains that the best employees don't just execute tasks they think strategically about how to solve their boss's biggest problems. That means understanding your company's goals, understanding your boss's goals, knowing what keeps your boss up at night, what do they worry about, what's on their mind, and then positioning yourself as the person who makes their life easier, who has ideas and brings solutions to the table. Because when layoffs happen, you want to be the person that they cannot afford to lose.
- [97:05]
Rachel Rogers
What is my boss's job and what is my boss stressed about? What is my boss worried about? What are the numbers my boss needs to hit and how can I make that a priority? How can I not only do my job and check off all the items on the list, but be thinking strategically about how can I support my boss? And hitting their numbers and making sure that their goals are hit? Because that's really how you make yourself invaluable.
- [97:30]
Paula Pant
That is the second key takeaway. Finally, key takeaway Number three Bring solutions, not just problems As a CEO, Rachel requires that her employees come to her with three solutions whenever they identify a problem. This makes employees more valuable and shows initiative that leads to raises and leads to promotions. And it trains people to think strategically rather than just pointing out what's broken.
- [97:56]
Rachel Rogers
This is part of our onboarding for every team member. I actually train that if you bring me a problem, you must bring me three solutions and then tell me which one is your favorite, which one do you think we should go with? And it's now to the point where my team brings me a problem. They tell me the three options and whichever one they said is the one to go with, that is what I go with.
- [98:16]
Paula Pant
Those are three key takeaways from this conversation with the CEO of hello7, Rachel Rogers. Thank you so much for being an afforder, for being part of the Afford Anything community. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with your friends, neighbors, colleagues, cousins. Share it with your babysitter, your dog walker, the parents at the swim meet or the track meet or the soccer game. Share it with the person behind the front desk when you walk into work, and the guy who gives you your juice at your favorite smoothie place, and the person who always sits next to you in your cycling class. Share it with the barista at Starbucks and the associate at Target. Share it with all the people in your life because that's how you spread the message of F Double I R E number two subscribe to our newsletter affordanything.com newsletter where we deep dive into topics you won't find anywhere else. And number three open up your favorite podcast playing app Open up your second favorite podcast playing app. Open up your least favorite podcast playing app and on all of those apps hit the follow button so that you don't miss any of our amazing upcoming shows and write us a review. Tell us what you think you can leave up to five stars and I hope you do. Those are three things that you can do to support our show. If you enjoyed what you heard, if you got value from what you heard, and the most important thing, I really hope you take action from this. I hope you implement something that you learned. In fact, if you want to talk to other people about what you learned and how you might take action or what questions you have. If you want to talk to like minded people, go to affordanything.comcommunity it's completely free. Everything I've mentioned is totally free. The newsletter is free. Afford anything.com Newsletter the community is free. Affordanything.com Community this is all here for you for your benefit. So take advantage of what is available for you for free because it's here to help you on your wealth path. Thank you again for being an afforder. My name is Paula Pant. This is the Afford Anything podcast and I'll meet you in the next episode.