← Afford Anything | Make Smart Money Choices
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- [00:00]
Paula Pant
What if landing your dream job requires more than just the right resume? The latest science suggests that understanding and developing your personality traits might be the secret weapon that sets you apart in today's competitive workforce. Welcome to the Afford Anything podcast, the show that understands you can afford anything, but not everything. Every choice carries a trade off. This show covers five pillars. Financial psychology, increasing your income, investing, real estate, and entrepreneurship. It's Double I Fire, and today's episode focuses on that first, first letter, F financial psychology, as we are joined by Olga Kazan, a staff writer at the Atlantic and the author of a book on the science of personality change called Me But Better. In honor of the F of Double I Fire financial Psychology, we're going to talk about the big five personality traits and how they influence success, including financial success. And we'll explore how changing your personality can lead to better outcomes in career advancement. Entrepreneurship and overall well being will touch on increasing your income as well when we talk about how certain personality traits correlate with higher earnings. So if you're interested in the psychology of making more money, you'll enjoy today's episode. Olga, welcome.
- [01:15]
Olga Kazan
Yeah, thanks so much for having me.
- [01:17]
Paula Pant
Thank you for being here. Olga. What is personality?
- [01:20]
Olga Kazan
Personality is the thoughts, feelings, and behaviors that come most naturally to you. And I would add a twist on that, which is that they serve some purpose in your life in that they help you meet your goals.
- [01:33]
Paula Pant
Ooh. But goals are constantly in a state of flux. So does that mean personality is also in a state of flux?
- [01:40]
Olga Kazan
I would argue that your personality is in a state of flux and it does at times adjust to help you meet your goals, which, as you point out, can also change in life.
- [01:49]
Paula Pant
Right. I'm thinking about people that I know who have been relatively the same for 25 plus years. I know certain people who are shy, and they've always been shy. And sometimes they have goals of making more money at work, but that requires being better at sales, and their shy nature inhibits that. So there are times that personality seems to also work against your goals. And it also seems to be a little bit fixed, at least anecdotally.
- [02:18]
Olga Kazan
Yeah, a lot of people do say that. They're like, I haven't changed. I've been exactly the same since I was a little kid. I will say that that's pretty unusual. Most of us do change over time. The changes might be kind of subtle, so you might not notice it in someone else. They might not even notice it in themselves. But if you've ever done the thing where you look up like a Facebook status update that you posted, you know, 10 years ago, 12 years ago, and you're like, what was I thinking? You will see that you have changed as a person, and probably those people that you have in mind did change as well. But one reason why they might have goals that their personality is not getting them closer toward or they feel like it's just in their nature. It's sort of inhibiting whatever goal they might have. They might have that desire to change in that way, but they actually are not doing anything about it. So kind of a key concept of personality change is that you have to follow through because, meaning, you have to actually do stuff to change your personality.
- [03:16]
Paula Pant
Ooh. And in a moment, I'm gonna ask, what are the types of things that people can do to change their personality? But staying on the topic of just defining what we're talking about first, your personality can inhibit your goals. Other than pursuit of goals, does personality matter?
- [03:33]
Olga Kazan
Personality does matter. Personality traits really determine our happiness and our success in life. There's five personality traits, and higher levels on all of those traits tend to correlate with better well being, better relationships, better success at school and work, even better health and longevity. So it is something where you should want your personality to help you in life. And in fact, if your personality is a certain way, you do tend to be slightly more successful.
- [04:06]
Paula Pant
All right, so you mentioned that there are five personality traits. Can we go over those five?
- [04:11]
Olga Kazan
Yeah. So you can remember them with the acronym ocean. The first is openness to experiences, which is like imaginativeness and creativity. Then there's conscientiousness, which is sort of like ambition, productivity, organization, timeliness, things like that. Extraversion, which some of us might be familiar with, which is sort of like being outgoing and cheerful and active. There's agreeableness, which is being warm and empathetic toward others and also trusting of others. And then there's neuroticism for N, which is a bad thing. The other ones are good things. Neuroticism is basically depression and anxiety. And the opposite of neuroticism is called emotional stability.
- [04:53]
Paula Pant
You mentioned earlier that having high scores on all five correlate with more success in life. Is that also true for neuroticism?
- [05:01]
Olga Kazan
No. So for neuroticism, you actually want to be low in it. A lot of us think that someone who's kind of depressed or moody or angsty is also like a deep thinker and a brilliant genius. But actually, neuroticism, it can really cloud your thoughts and your judgment. It actually gets in the way of productivity and of doing what you want, because you're always second guessing yourself. You're always seeing the negatives of things. So you actually want to be low on neuroticism, you want to be high on the others.
- [05:31]
Paula Pant
But then the OCEAN acronym falls apart. I know, if you were to flip it, right?
- [05:36]
Olga Kazan
I wish there was a word with two E's, but all the rest of the letters in ocean because then they could really redo that acronym.
- [05:42]
Paula Pant
Can you talk about how the big five personality traits were originally developed in the research?
- [05:47]
Olga Kazan
The big five really come from trait theory, which it just means that people's personalities consist of traits of adjectives. Starting in the early 20th century, various researchers, starting with Gordon Allport, pulled words from the dictionary that could be used to describe people. At first they had thousands of words like this, and then they would narrow them down and narrow them down and narrow them down until there weren't any synonyms in the list. So one of the versions, I think there was like a 16 trait theory at one point, and it had like perfectionism or something, but that's a lot like conscientiousness. What they basically did is they went until there were no more synonyms. So none of the big five are synonyms with one another. They're all like, completely distinct. And as researchers were kind of quizzing people about their personalities and sort of asking like, okay, do you tend to be like this or like this? They sort of found that people were basically describing the big five, that they were like, saying, I really love going to parties, but I'm also really anxious and I love to try new things. They're describing the Big Five there. They kind of just settled on the Big Five in the late 80s, early 90s and have run with it since.
- [07:01]
Paula Pant
But Allport's research, I mean, that was back during the Ottoman Empire, wasn't it?
- [07:05]
Olga Kazan
It was like in the nineteen teens and like early twenties.
- [07:09]
Paula Pant
Right, right. Yeah. So it took sixty years before they really settled on it.
- [07:12]
Olga Kazan
Yeah, that's because there was just so many different theories of personality. And at the same time, you had a bunch of stuff that was like, kind of pseudo scientific. So things like the Rorschach test became popular in this intervening time where they thought you could determine what a person's like by showing them, like a really confusing picture, like an inkblot in this case, and being like, what do you think this is? And then if someone says, it's my mother, then they're this way or that way. Freud had theories about child sexual impulses. That didn't really pan out. And so there were a lot of different competing theories about personality, but none of them really stood up or held up with repeated testing and studies like the big five did.
- [07:54]
Paula Pant
All right. My understanding was that the original idea was that the big five traits are fixed.
- [08:01]
Olga Kazan
Yeah, that was one theory at the beginning. There was one study that was very influential early on called set like plaster. So essentially this idea that once you are a person, you're set like plaster and you never change. More recent research has started to question that idea. So there's one concept which is that we all change over time. So in studies that follow people over decades and decades, most of the people in that study will have changed on at least one personality trait over the course of their lives. It could be for different reasons. It could be because of life events. It could be because of environments that they find themselves in. But most of us do end up changing little bit, even if we don't try to. Even if we're just living life, not doing anything in particular about our personality. Now, if you actually try to change things like therapy, medication, new friend group, going to college, changing your career, doing things that actively change your personality can make it change even faster.
- [09:02]
Paula Pant
You mentioned earlier that in order to change an aspect of your personality intentionally so that it's more aligned with the pursuit of your goals, you. You have to be really focused on doing it with intention. So I want to talk about how specifically to change each element such that it's more conducive towards meeting your goals. Because I know a lot of the people who are listening to this right now have particular financial goals or career goals or just life goals, but they may find that elements of their personality actually inhibit their goals or their desires. And so I want to kind of break down each one of the big five in terms of how a person listening to this can change their orientation in that if they want to. And let's just go in order of the ocean acronym, starting with openness to experience. So first, can you describe what does it look like if a person is low on openness to experience?
- [10:02]
Olga Kazan
Low on openness would be, hey, do you want to try a new restaurant tonight instead of the same place we always go? No, no, I like the same old place. Hey, do you want to check out that new foreign film everyone's, like, talking about? It's really avant garde. No, let's just watch, like, the latest Avengers movie. Hey, do you want to maybe go to this country where we don't speak the language and, like, everything's super new and unusual? No, I don't think so. That wouldn't be right for me. So it's sort of just not wanting new experiences.
- [10:32]
Paula Pant
And how does that play out? Let's say that there's a person who wants new experiences in certain dimensions or certain domains. Like maybe they're very open to traveling internationally, but the idea of starting a side hustle completely freaks them out. Because even that toe dip in the water of entrepreneurship just feels a little bit too radical. Or vice versa. How do we assess where we stand when openness might be domain specific?
- [11:03]
Olga Kazan
Oh, that's interesting. You know, I did talk to someone like this. She was very open to things, generally loved art and like music and kind of a creative, fun loving person. But she was an extremely picky eater. Even as an adult. Very, very, very limited diet. Very beige, like potatoes, no fish or sushi or anything like super interesting or like kind of creative foods or anything like that. This is as an adult. So not just like the five year olds eating like chicken nuggets. And really what changed? Like the thing that inspired her to change is that she fell in love with someone who was like a huge foodie and he always wanted to go to restaurants and they were always restaurants where there was like nothing that she could eat. And so she sort of just started to question, like, okay, is it true that there's nothing here I can really eat? Like, is it true that like all of this would be disgusting to me? And then she kind of just started really slowly, like you said, dip your toe in. And that's really what I would recommend for someone in that situation is just kind of a small foray into the unknown. So if you're really, really uncomfortable with something, you don't have to jump into the deep end and do the most extreme version of that. You can kind of inch your way into it to see if it's gradually becomes more comfortable. So what she did is like she would make foods that she was very unfamiliar with and uncomfortable with in kind of new and like tastier ways. Or she would like mix whatever broccoli or like some vegetable that she didn't like into pasta or something that she did like and kind of start to introduce it to herself that way kind of gradually. And so now like, I mean, when I met up with her, we ate at this restaurant where we had like bone marrow and octopus and crazy cheeses and pig head sausage and stuff. So she's way on the other end now because she gradually built up her tolerance for the unknown. And that's what I would really recommend for anyone who's kind of like, I don't know about this, I'm curious about it, but it kind of scares me.
- [13:06]
Paula Pant
Right. How would that apply? So I'm thinking about the world of finance, and for certain things, like, let's say buying an investment property, there's such a high barrier to doing so that even entering the field feels like a leap rather than a step. What would a person do in a situation like that? If, let's say, they want to be open to it, maybe they have a spouse who's really excited about it, but they themselves are just. They're low on the openness in that specific domain.
- [13:38]
Olga Kazan
Yeah, let's say financially you're fine, and you have this money set aside for the investment property in a way that would not hurt your financial situation if, like, you weren't able to get it rented out or something for a couple months. Right. So I'm assuming that the finances are okay. So what I would do in that situation, and this is something that I found really worked for people who were trying to learn new things or kind of broaden their horizons, is I would actually learn from other people who have done the same thing. This is something that I went into with people who were trying to become more conscientious. What they kept running into is that they were sort of like, I have no idea where to begin. I don't know where to start. One guy really wanted to go to grad school, but he didn't know how to study, which sounds really silly, but, like, if you didn't grow up writing papers and studying and applying yourself, you kind of don't know how to memorize facts or present them in a paper, you know? So he had to learn how to study. And what he did is he learned techniques from other students who were in a similar situation as him. And this has actually been borne out in research where if you learn a strategy for how to do something from someone else, you're actually more likely to be successful than if someone just tells you how to do it. The researcher is like, here's how you make an exercise plan versus if you go to your friend and say, what's an exercise plan that worked for you? That second one is more likely to be successful for whatever reason, because as you're learning those strategies, you're thinking about how to apply it in your own situation. So what I would do is I would talk to other people who have investment properties and see how they do it. And then if you're still feeling really scared. You know, I would do, again, the minor version of that. So, like, maybe a smaller place than some beautiful, like, dream home, you know, maybe someplace that's like very, very risk, low risk, that'll definitely be rented or definitely, you know, turn a profit.
- [15:31]
Paula Pant
Right. Tell me about what you did when you wanted to become more open to experiences.
- [15:35]
Olga Kazan
So, for me, I was already really open when I started, but I kind of wanted to experiment with, like, what happens if you. If you try to increase openness even more. So for me, what I really did is I did a, like, what's called a peak experience, which is sort of a inspiring experience that people might have. It can be in nature. It can also be not in nature. Like, so a lot of people describe giving birth to their child as a peak experience. And so for me, that was surfing, which I had never done before. So I'm just like, not very sporty or aquatic. So it was like a totally new thing. I was a little scared. I'm very afraid of sharks. It was really interesting because it completely absorbs your entire brain trying to do this new thing that is very physically challenging. But also you have to constantly be watching the waves and pushing up and timing everything just right and making sure you're in the right position on the board. So for me, that was a really good way of getting out of my head and trying this new thing in an all encompassing way.
- [16:39]
Paula Pant
Now, you mentioned conscientiousness following the ocean acronym O C E A N. That leads us perfectly from openness to our second point, which is conscientiousness. First, can you describe what does being low in conscientiousness look like?
- [16:55]
Olga Kazan
Procrastinating, looking at TikTok all day instead of doing the work email that you need to send.
- [17:01]
Paula Pant
Oh, I am rock Bott Conscientiousness.
- [17:04]
Olga Kazan
We all are sometimes, right?
- [17:06]
Paula Pant
Can you be so low you're negative?
- [17:07]
Olga Kazan
I'm pretty sure you're not negative conscientious because you wouldn't have this podcast. But these are, you know, like the typical teenager sleeping through class, being late, dogging my homework type. Yeah, that's low conscientiousness.
- [17:20]
Paula Pant
Yep. Rafa, I'm claiming like a 0.0001 on conscientiousness on a scale of 0 to 100. Okay, all right, so how do I increase conscientious? Because it's clear how being high in conscientiousness would lead to greater success. That seems pretty evident just from your description of what being low conscientiousness looks like.
- [17:41]
Olga Kazan
Yeah. So this is a tricky one because people who are low in conscientiousness kind of don't know how to get there. So that's a common problem. One strategy that I thought was really interesting is called episodic future thinking. And this is when you envision very, very clearly the end result that you want. Let's say you are procrastinating on a PowerPoint presentation that you're going to present to, like, a team at work. Episodic future thinking is basically like, okay, take a minute and stop and think about that day you're giving the PowerPoint. It's beautifully designed. You're so eloquent. Your boss and everyone else applauds and is like, wow, you're such a star. They all order their favorite sandwiches from the deli. Afterward, you all have this amazing lunch with your coworkers. It's just a great, awesome day. Right. And so sometimes envisioning something like that can actually give you the motivation to do those boring tasks that add up to that great vision. Because if you think about it, like, most amazing things or really fun things, they have a lot of boring task lead up. Like, even an amazing vacation that is like nonstop fun and excitement. You're booking the plane tickets and you're like, booking the activities and you're calling your credit card to be like, I'm going to Japan, or whatever. None of that stuff is fun. Right. But we're motivated to do it because we're imagining ourselves in Tokyo having a great time.
- [19:09]
Paula Pant
Right.
- [19:09]
Olga Kazan
But you can apply that with stuff that's not just a vacation with other things in life that you want.
- [19:15]
Paula Pant
Yeah. I, for a while on Instagram, would share whenever I would travel, rather than share the travel photos themselves, I would share photos of I'm packing my suitcase, I'm getting a lift at 5:30am, you know? Yes. Yeah. Oh, now I'm at the gate, right?
- [19:34]
Olga Kazan
I'm waiting for like an hour and a half.
- [19:36]
Paula Pant
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And the whole documentation would just end there, right? Like, I would just show the transit element. Because so much of the time, what we see, especially on social media, on Instagram, we see that end result, we see that beautiful vacation, and we don't see the 5:30am Wake up to get to the airport.
- [19:59]
Olga Kazan
Yeah, exactly. And so what episodic future thinking really does is it helps push you through the 5:30 Wake up for a work presentation or for, you know, and maybe you're imagining getting a raise or getting a promotion or getting a new job. That kind of stuff can be. It can be really motivating.
- [20:15]
Paula Pant
What I hear in that answer are elements of visualization. Would that be a good line to draw?
- [20:22]
Olga Kazan
Yeah, it is sort of like visualization. And I don't mean to imply that it's the secret.
- [20:27]
Paula Pant
Like, if you believe that it will.
- [20:29]
Olga Kazan
Happen, like, you have to be actually doing the stuff that leads to that thing. But it kind of just makes those goals a little bit more concrete and present. And some people actually find that it's more motivating to think about a negative outcome, that they're trying to avoid their boss yelling at them or everyone being super disappointed or something like that. I mean, for some people, that is more effective to get them going than a positive outcome. So it kind of just depends on whatever is more motivating for you.
- [20:56]
Paula Pant
Other than episodic future thinking, are there any other tactics that can help move a person higher in the realm of conscientiousness?
- [21:04]
Olga Kazan
Yeah. So this is gonna sound kind of funny, but one thing that came across is that the people who became more conscientious did it by simplifying and streamlining a lot. Some of it was literal physical decluttering, like cleaning, throwing a bunch of stuff away and having fewer belongings can actually make it a lot easier to find things. You spend less time looking for stuff. Your space feels clearer, so you feel less burdened by your stuff. They also really streamlined their commitments and the things that they had to do. So if there was extra activities or meetings or just obligations that weren't providing value for them, they would find a way to offload those or to stop coming to those, basically so that they could focus on what really matters. And even the guy who I interviewed, who had never written a paper before, really, what switched for him and made him a lot more conscientious was focusing on one subject area that was interesting to him, as opposed to taking, like, gen ed classes, surveys of, like, lots of different things that maybe weren't as interesting to him. So finding ways to simplify as much as possible, because you will inevitably do better if you have less to do.
- [22:19]
Paula Pant
But although that does fly in the face of there's a competing theory of if you want something done, give it to a busy person.
- [22:26]
Olga Kazan
Right. And I've heard that too. And I do think that some people who are super conscientious already and have a lot going on do find a way to, like, squeeze more stuff in. But I think if you're still working on conscientiousness, if you are late a lot. It's probably not a good idea to like squeeze even more stuff into that half hour before you have to leave because, you know, by the time you're finished with that email, by the time you call the Uber, by the time you find your shoes, by the time it kind of all adds up. And so that's where that kind of decluttering principle is coming from.
- [22:59]
Paula Pant
We'll come back to the letters E A N in a moment after this word from our sponsors. But before we take this break, I want to share with you. So, on this subject of time blindness and low conscientiousness, you can see I'm reading from my phone. This is an actual conversation that I had with a friend. Friend said, wanna head out at about 2:45? And I said, I need to take a shower. And my friend said, okay, so 2:45, you know, and then that's a non answer. And I said, I don't know, I'll let you know. It's a bit of a time warp. And then I just started sending literal like play by play updates. So my next text was officially out of the shower. My next text was dressed, wearing deodorant, eyeliner. On next text was purse is packed, followed by putting on socks, followed by putting on jacket, followed by just hit the elevator button.
- [23:58]
Olga Kazan
That's great.
- [23:59]
Paula Pant
And then my final text was in the lobby. Right.
- [24:03]
Olga Kazan
And did it. Was it before 2:45?
- [24:05]
Paula Pant
It was 3:10.
- [24:07]
Olga Kazan
Okay.
- [24:07]
Paula Pant
It was 3:10pm okay, so close. Not quite, but I had no idea how to estimate that time. Yeah, you know, like I just had no idea. And rather than make a promise that I wouldn't be able to deliver on, I was like, I'm just going to deliver a play by play right here. So that, that way I'm setting expectations accordingly and because I really just don't know how long things take.
- [24:33]
Olga Kazan
So the one tip I heard for this is next time you're doing something that you frequently do, like get ready to go out time, how long it takes.
- [24:39]
Paula Pant
Yeah.
- [24:40]
Olga Kazan
And that way you will definitely know.
- [24:41]
Paula Pant
By virtue of sending all of those texts, I now have the timestamp for every text.
- [24:46]
Olga Kazan
Yeah.
- [24:46]
Paula Pant
So I was actually looking through that to like, I was like, oh, that's how long it takes to wear deodorant. Right, Right.
- [24:53]
Olga Kazan
Yeah, yeah. I mean, so that is actually one of the tips. So people have trouble knowing how long things take. Everyone has trouble with that, even conscientious people. And the thing you're supposed to do is time yourself and you'll. You'll be surprised. It kind of takes longer than you think to do a lot of stuff.
- [25:08]
Paula Pant
Yeah, it really does.
- [25:09]
Olga Kazan
Yeah.
- [25:10]
Paula Pant
There's so many steps to it. And if you think about it, it's a little cognitively demanding. Right. Like to have to manage that many steps.
- [25:18]
Olga Kazan
But when we think about how long it'll take, we group those steps into chunks. This is actually what happens in the brain. So you have chunks. So you're like, oh, showering. And you'll have that as one chunk, and you'll put that at like, 10 minutes. Right, right. But in reality, you're showering, getting out of the shower, drying your hair, putting on eyeliner, putting on deodorant. Like, there's a lot of, like, micro steps in that, but we don't necessarily always think about that.
- [25:40]
Paula Pant
Right, Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And I think it's a certain lack of conscientiousness about all of those micro steps that lead me to consistently underestimate the amount of time that something will take, which leads to persistently being late. And also, now that I know that I'm constantly late, I'm reluctant to give an estimated time because if a friend says, hey, do you want to meet at 2:45? My response is, I don't know, because I have no way of estimating how long this task, which is showering, is going to take. Right.
- [26:12]
Olga Kazan
Well, now you do. Yeah. Yeah. As long as it's always the last thing you do before you meet someone. Yeah, yeah.
- [26:23]
Paula Pant
I was just looking at Masterclass, so Do you remember R.L. stine? Remember him? He wrote the Goosebumps books. He teaches a class on Masterclass on writing for young audiences. So I was just looking at that this afternoon because how cool would that be? You know, with Masterclass, you can learn from the best to become your best. Masterclass is the only streaming platform where you can learn and grow with over 200 of the world's best for just $10 a month, billed annually, a membership with Masterclass gets you unlimited access to every instructor. And you can access it from your phone, computer, computer, smart tv. You can learn how to invest in the stock market with Ray Dalio. You can learn leadership skills from Howard Schultz or Whitney Wolf Hurd. There's a huge selection. So I mentioned I'm looking at the R.L. stine one, but a class that I completed was through another children's author, Judy Blume. She's very conscious about not being an adult writing two children, but instead, when she writes, she really tries to to embody the perspective of her protagonist. The perspective of a child. So that's something that I think about when I write. If you want to check it out. Every new membership comes with a 30 day money back guarantee. And right now our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual membership@masterclass.com afford. That's 15% off@masterclass.com afford masterclass.com afford a F F O R D When you're shopping online, do you ever notice that purple shop pay button? You'll see it on a lot of websites so you want to check out, but your wallet or your credit card is in the other room. But there's this big purple shop button and it has all of your payment and shipping information saved. And so you can just hit the button and it makes buying really easy. You know that button, right? The purple one? Well, that's Shopify. And there's a reason that so many businesses use it and it's because Shopify makes everything easier from checkout to creating your own storefront. Shopify is the commerce platform behind 10% of all e commerce in the US ranging from household names like Gymshark and Mattel to brands that are just getting started. And Shopify gives you a leg up with hundreds of beautiful ready to go templates that you can use to express your brand. And you don't need to know how to code. And you can tackle all of these important tasks in one place. Everything from inventory to payments to analytics. So you can spread your brand's word with built in marketing and email tools and that iconic purple shop pay button. It's why Shopify has the best converting checkout on the planet. If you want to see less carts being abandoned, it's time for you to head over to Shopify. Sign up for your 1 month $1 per month trial period and start selling today at shopify.com Paula go to shopify.com Paula shopify.com Paula my parents down in Atlanta bought a new to them older home. It's a fixer upper. It's going under renovations right now. And given that it's an older home in the south, they're being bugged by bugs. So I got them a kit from Pesti. Other pest control companies can charge more than $800 a year but with Pesti you can get started at just $35 per treatment and you get a customized plan based on your location, your bugs and your climate. And everything you need is in one simple kit. I got mine like a couple of weeks ago. Every kit includes a sprayer, a mixing bag, pesticide gloves. Pesti gets rid of over 100 types of bugs. Spiders, ants, roaches, scorpions. It's kid friendly and pet friendly and pesty offers a 100% bug free guarantee or your money back. So if bugs are bugging you, protect your home from bugs with Pesti. Go to pesti.com Paula for an extra 10% off your order. That's P-E-S-T-I E.com Paula for an extra 10 percent off. Welcome back. We've talked about O, we've talked about C. Let's move to that third letter, E, which is extraversion.
- [30:35]
Olga Kazan
Extraversion is exactly what you think it is. The person who is the life of the party, loves people, loves talking to people. Couldn't wait to get back to working in an office after the pandemic. Just out there doing stuff all the time. That's extroversion.
- [30:50]
Paula Pant
And why? In terms of success, in terms of financial success, career success, why does extroversion matter?
- [30:57]
Olga Kazan
So extroversion is not the most important variable for finance success per se. But what extroversion does is it makes you happier. And a big part of why it makes you happier is because it expands your social network and the number of people that you socialize with. Socializing makes us happy. Connecting with other people makes us happy. Even very small connections that may seem quite meaningless, talking with your barista, talking with your mailman, things like that can really make you a lot happier. So extroversion tends to kind of create this, like, positivity and, I don't know, optimism maybe. And in part because of that, in part because it grows your social network, it tends to generate more job opportunities or opportunities in general.
- [31:42]
Paula Pant
Yeah, I've heard many people say that, with a few exceptions, most jobs are sort of made for extroverts or designed for extroverts. There are a few types of jobs that require long periods of deep, focused, siloed and solo work. But even those require to be able to navigate office politics or workplace politics in the times that you're not doing that deep work. So in pretty much any domain, that level of extroversion and EQ seem to go a long way.
- [32:13]
Olga Kazan
Yeah, a lot of introverts don't want to become extroverts. And I totally understand that. I'm not suggesting that they completely flip and become a total partier all the time. And I do have one of those jobs that requires a lot of deep work by myself. Most of the time I actually have to interview people, but when I'm not interviewing people, I'm just sort of writing for hours at a time without interruption from anyone. But all jobs, even my job, like what I'm doing right now, is extroverted. All jobs occasionally require extroversion. You wouldn't have gotten your job if you weren't able to occasionally be extroverted at your job interview. It's just something that's part of life, having to connect with people, having to have sort of a gregarious self presentation. It's just something we all have to do from time to time.
- [33:00]
Paula Pant
And so for the introverts who are listening to this, how can an introvert practice being more extroverted? Even if they don't necessarily want to be extroverted in all domains of life at all times, how can they practice having this skill set of knowing how to cosplay as an extrovert when it matters?
- [33:18]
Olga Kazan
Yeah, cosplay is a really good way to put it. So what I would do is sign up for an activity, activity that involves other people and that occurs regularly. And that is hard to get out of. And that you enjoy and that is.
- [33:29]
Paula Pant
Hard to get out of.
- [33:30]
Olga Kazan
Okay. The reason is because if you're like, I'm just gonna get drinks with people more, and you're like sitting there on a text thread going, let's get drinks. How about Tuesday? How about Thursday? How about next Wednesday? I can't. I have to do this. How about next Friday? Oh, that doesn't work for me. Like, it's just never gonna happen. It has to be something that occurs on a day, preferably every week, but let's say every other week or once a month. And that is hard to not go to. And the reason I say that is because if you're an introvert, you're not going to want to go. It's going to get to 10 minutes before you have to leave, and you're going to be like, I don't know, the couch looks so inviting right now. And you're not going to want to leave the apartment. So I would definitely pick something that's like, other people are counting on you to be there.
- [34:15]
Paula Pant
Mm. And is it then that just by virtue of going out more, you will become more extroverted? Is this like, exposure theory?
- [34:24]
Olga Kazan
Yes. Basically by getting in like reps, Essentially as an extrovert, by, like, connecting more with other people. First of all, you have more opportunities to practice so you feel less awkward and uncomfortable whenever you're out socializing. This really happened with me with improv. I was scared to death of improv. The first I Don't know, four, five months that I did it. It was really only after that long that I started to feel comfortable doing it. But it was honestly just because I kind of knew the drill, I would get there. I know what games we're going to play, then I know we're going to do scenes. Probably one of the scenes will be roughly this kind of storyline. We might do this kind of scene, which we did last time. I kind of became more comfortable with it. And when you have that kind of comfort and familiarity with something, it sort of does become your personality. It doesn't feel so unusual or so strange. You feel like it's something that you can do. Yeah. So it's sort. It is a little bit like exposure. Yes.
- [35:24]
Paula Pant
In this context, what is the distinction between being outgoing versus being extroverted?
- [35:29]
Olga Kazan
They're very similar. A lot of people who are extroverted are also very outgoing. But because I know there's so much discomfort around, like, the idea of becoming an extrovert for people who are very, very introverted. I talked with Sonia Lyubomierski, who's a psychologist who has studied social connections and happiness. If you are someone who wants to be more extroverted, but you're, like, more of a listener than a talker, what you can do is go somewhere and listen more than you talk. And as long as you're around other people, as long as you're doing an activity that still, like, counts as extroversion, those are still social connections, you're still benefiting. You're still not alone in your apartment, but you're also not having to, like, come up with, like, zingers and, like, jokes or whatever it is you're worried about.
- [36:13]
Paula Pant
Right. Often I have found in those environments that if I'm quiet for a while, then when I do speak, people tend to listen more.
- [36:21]
Olga Kazan
Totally. Yeah. I ran a meetup group for a while based around foreign film, and it was interesting because, first of all, everyone there was very introverted. So it was like a lot of silence sometimes. But the people who would say the least often had the most knowledge about the film. It's just that, like, they were kind of, like, waiting to unleash it. So that's also a form of extroversion.
- [36:44]
Paula Pant
Right. Are there cases when it comes to success or the pursuit of goals when it could be beneficial to be more on the introverted side?
- [36:53]
Olga Kazan
Yeah, definitely. So there definitely are jobs where you do need to really love being by yourself and being quiet and doing deep work. My job, as an example, you Know, a lot of people who might work in finance or accounting, even like programming, things like that, a lot of those folks are very introverted and it benefits them. Even extreme extroverts, you know, the same could be said that they often have to like practice being introverted and they have to live more of an inner life sometimes in order to succeed at their jobs.
- [37:28]
Paula Pant
We've talked O C E. Let's talk about the next one. A. Agreeableness. It seems to me that this would be healthy to a degree. But up to a certain threshold agreeableness is pro social. But beyond that, agreeableness is actually.
- [37:44]
Olga Kazan
It can be like people pleasing almost. Yeah, yeah. You don't want to be too agreeable. You actually don't want to be extreme on any of these. Even emotional stability, which is like low anxiety, it seems great. But if you've ever met someone who has no anxiety, they're like late for their flight. Like I don't know, I didn't book a hotel. Like, let's just wing it. Like it's. They're not anxious enough. So you want a little bit of disagreeableness or at least you want disagreeableness on occasion. I have a child, so I'm making doctor's appointments for him and the waits for these appointments are always long. Sometimes I've had to be like, hey, no, I need to get in right now. Like he's really sick. Like, get me in asap. Find something. And that kind of like bossy attitude is pretty disagreeable. But it's also like, I would argue, necessary in some cases.
- [38:32]
Paula Pant
Right? Self advocacy. Yeah, Self advocacy can sometimes be non agreeable.
- [38:37]
Olga Kazan
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's. We all have to do that at times.
- [38:40]
Paula Pant
Right.
- [38:41]
Olga Kazan
And that's normal. Right.
- [38:42]
Paula Pant
So how do you know if you are trying to be high on agreeableness? How do you know when it is a healthy dose versus when it's excessive?
- [38:51]
Olga Kazan
Yeah. Well, so I actually took a scientific personality test throughout this process that I was working on this book, it's@communityassessor.com and it told me where I fall on agreeableness. And I was always like low average. So I was never super high. I was definitely not like too high. I kind of like teetered between low and average basically. So I wanted to kind of be above average but not like all the way to the end. I would say that like if you feel like you have really good friendships, really good relationships, you feel a lot of social support from people around you, but at the same time you're able to Draw boundaries, and you're able to not just have people walk all over you. That is good agreeableness. So, like, what agreeableness is not. Is just like doing whatever your friends tell you to do because you're trying to be agreeable. I actually had a great conversation with someone, a friendship expert, who really talked about how boundaries. They might seem disagreeable, but they really help us maintain our relationships because they kind of. They tell us literally what the bounds of those relationships are. So I brought to her the example that a friend was telling me I had to text her more often. And you would think that the agreeable way to respond to that would be like, oh, sure, of course. I will text you however often you want. No problem. I'm not a big fan of just texting for fun. I just don't really all day text. I know a lot of people do, and I'm like, the only person on earth who doesn't do that. But I just don't.
- [40:22]
Paula Pant
I literally text. My friends say, I just put on deodorant. Yeah.
- [40:26]
Olga Kazan
Yeah. I mean, honestly, that's probably coffee, but I just never got in the swing, and I. I don't know. I'm never gonna get there. And so I was like, what should I do about this texting situation? She's like, you could tell your friend, hey, I'm not a big texter, but I want to keep in touch with you in other ways. Like, could we do a weekly email exchange or a weekly phone call? Zoom. FaceTime. There's a million ways to keep in touch, and I think that's a healthy form of agreeableness, because you're not letting someone just dictate what you're going to do, but you're also letting them know that they're important to you and that, you know, you want to keep the relationship going in a way that works for both of you.
- [41:01]
Paula Pant
What can a person do to increase their level of agreeableness? How does a person be intentional about this domain?
- [41:08]
Olga Kazan
So one super interesting thing that I did was I went to a conversation workshop in London, which was all about how to have more meaningful conversations. And it was really interesting because I thought I was an expert at having conversations because I'm a journalist, but really I am not. I have conversations the way everyone else does, which is I ask a bunch of questions. What you could do instead of asking people for facts like that is to ask them what a certain situation meant for them, what the meaning behind something was or why something was important to them.
- [41:40]
Paula Pant
Right.
- [41:40]
Olga Kazan
So if someone's like, oh, I can't hang out tonight because my kids have their school concert or something. Instead of being like, okay, see you some other time, you could be like, oh, cool, what are they performing and how long did they work on their songs? What was it like the first time you saw them practice their songs for you? Kind of asking more questions about someone's emotional state can actually create feelings of agreeableness because you see them as more of a whole person. You're not just going through the motions of interacting with them.
- [42:10]
Paula Pant
Right, right. Well, and what's interesting to me about that answer is that you're. What you're talking about is the perception of agreeableness because in that particular example, you're not necessarily agreeing to go along with anything.
- [42:23]
Olga Kazan
Exactly.
- [42:23]
Paula Pant
You're not necessarily acquiescing to a given demand.
- [42:26]
Olga Kazan
Exactly.
- [42:27]
Paula Pant
But you're still increasing perceptions of agreeableness by saying, hey, tell me about the experience of like watching your kid perform on stage. What is that like? Is it exciting? Is it nerve wracking? What does that feel like?
- [42:40]
Olga Kazan
Yeah, exactly. What was that like? Is one of the questions that she suggested that we, we ask in order to sort of deepen. And it really shows how agreeableness, like, I think people get the wrong impression because it's like agree. That means you're agreeing with whatever's going on. But really, I mean, you could ask these questions of someone who's like the polar opposite of you politically, religiously, whatever domain you're kind of worried about, and you could still have a perfectly civil and actually super interesting conversation as long as you are focusing on like, why, what's behind some of their thoughts and emotions?
- [43:15]
Paula Pant
Right, yeah. What are the concerns that led you to think about.
- [43:19]
Olga Kazan
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And you're not agreeing with anything they're saying. You're just learning about them.
- [43:24]
Paula Pant
It seems to me then that that agreeableness is almost like curiosity about a person.
- [43:30]
Olga Kazan
Yeah, it's exactly. It's warmth and empathy. And a big way that we show warmth and empathy is through curiosity and genuine, the kind of genuine curiosity that some of these conversation prompts foster as opposed to just kind of like small talk questions which have their place but, you know, are limited.
- [43:50]
Paula Pant
Right, right. Well, I think the reason that small talk questions can be so exhausting is because often it is a recitation of facts. It's so what do you do? How long have you been doing it? How long have you lived here? When did you move here? What brought you here? It's like, it just seems like a regurgitation of the same set of facts over and over and over to a point where I'm like, I could just put all of this on, like, a world's longest name tag.
- [44:17]
Olga Kazan
I know.
- [44:17]
Paula Pant
You know, if you want my bio data, here it is.
- [44:20]
Olga Kazan
Yeah. And that's exactly why this woman, Georgie Nightingale, started this whole program, is because she was like, I'm so sick of going into networking mixers and having it be like, when did you move here? Where do you live? We're all just exchanging the same five facts, and then we're going home. Like, why are we doing this? We'll probably never see the people in that workshop again. But I feel like I got to know them so well, and the stuff that was important to them and the stuff that they cared about. I felt so close to them for those two days, even though it was all very scripted, done in a very, like, prescribed way. I don't know. I think it works.
- [44:56]
Paula Pant
I like the icebreaker. What was your favorite part of today? You know, what was the best part of today?
- [45:01]
Olga Kazan
That's a good one. Yeah. You know, I might steal that icebreaker. I don't have one.
- [45:05]
Paula Pant
I've thought a lot about that one. And I think the reason that it works is if you say, hey, what was your favorite thing that you've ever done in life that is such a wide scope of time that it's too big. But your favorite part of today, that is such a narrow window of time, and it's easy to recall. Like, if you think about just ease of recall, salience, like, today is at the forefront of your mind already. So it's. You're not asking them to scrape the, like, deep, dark recesses of their memory bank. It's just, hey, what was the best part of today? And it's. Of course it's positive. It wasn't, like, what was the worst part of today?
- [45:40]
Olga Kazan
Yeah. You know, my mom's group that I'm in does something similar. In the very postpartum period when we would gather, we would ask each other the highs and lows. So that did have a negative element. But I think that part was important because, like, so much kind of bad stuff happens postpartum, if I'm being honest. It's like, stressful. Babies cry all the time. So it's, like, nice to give the person that release of this very frustrating thing happened, but then also to have that, like, positive recovery from it, where you're like, but the baby smiled at me for the first time, or, you know, whatever happened. So, yeah, you're the owner of a small business, which means you're also the tech guy and HR and personal assistant and head honcho and intern. You could use another pair of hands like the experts you'll find at Verizon small business days, April 21 through 20. Get a free tech check, special deals and more. Call 1-800-483-4428 or visit verizon.comsmallbusiness to book your appointment. Verizon Business.
- [46:48]
Paula Pant
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- [47:04]
Olga Kazan
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Paula Pant
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- [47:19]
Olga Kazan
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Paula Pant
Not just a ride or dinner at your door.
- [47:27]
Olga Kazan
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- [47:53]
Paula Pant
Finally, let's talk about that last letter, the letter N. This is one where you actually want to be low on it. This is the only one of the acronym where you want to be low.
- [48:01]
Olga Kazan
Yes, I should maybe just start saying that the acronym is not OCEAN and it's osh.
- [48:06]
Paula Pant
No, no. I've heard OCEAN from multiple sources. It's a common acronym for the Big five.
- [48:12]
Olga Kazan
It's so confusing. But yes. Neuroticism. You want to be low on it, right?
- [48:16]
Paula Pant
Can you describe what that looks like? What does being low neuroticism look like? And conversely, what does being high neuroticism look like?
- [48:22]
Olga Kazan
It's like a woman with low anxiety and she's like, oh, a plane just crashed and we're about to take a flight. Oh well, that means like they must be doing a lot of extra safety checks. It's the first day of my new job tomorrow. I'm sure everyone will love me and everything will go great. I honestly am so high on anxiety that I have trouble even like jokingly describing what that would be like. But yeah, it's someone who just does not really worry much and is not really down in the dumps much.
- [48:53]
Paula Pant
I can see even from your facial expression right now that you find that hard to relate to so describe what being high in neuroticism is like. What is that experience?
- [49:02]
Olga Kazan
So especially before I started this project, there was a lot more just like dread about the future and worry about the future and getting like all caught up in the worries to the point where like, just like googling stuff a lot. Like the same types of things. Just being super nervous about things to the point where you can't think about anything else because you worry almost. If you take your eye off the ball of the worry, it'll come true. Never really savoring anything good that happens because you're kind of on to worrying about the next thing. Or you're just very able to find the negative in the good thing that happened. Not having a ton of hope or optimism about the future or about positive outcomes that might happen. Yeah, that would be high neuroticism.
- [49:48]
Paula Pant
That sounds very stressful.
- [49:50]
Olga Kazan
It is, yeah. Yeah.
- [49:52]
Paula Pant
When you were high neuroticism, were you aware that that's what you were, or did you think that that was just a normal state? Was it such a baseline that you thought everyone was like that?
- [50:02]
Olga Kazan
So I think gradually over time, I came to realize that it is abnormal that it's like not normal to feel quite as anxious as I felt at the time. Yeah, I think it was just a gradual. Because for a long time I kind of thought my life is uniquely stressful. But then if that is ridiculous, it's not. People in very poor countries with very meager livings and really stressful circumstances, their lives are stressful. Like, my life is actually not that stressful. So yeah, it was kind of a gradual realization.
- [50:35]
Paula Pant
And how did you work your way out of that? Tell us about that.
- [50:39]
Olga Kazan
So the thing to do for neuroticism is basically meditation. So, okay, you could do therapy and medication, which I also do. But meditation and various forms of mindfulness, it can be something more like yoga, if you like. Absolutely. Cannot stand meditation or traditional sitting down meditation. There's like mindful walking as well. There's also meditations where you repeat phrases to yourself as opposed to just following your breath. But basically some form of mindfulness practice seems to be what helps with neuroticism.
- [51:14]
Paula Pant
Hmm. Are there any other tactics or is that the primary one?
- [51:17]
Olga Kazan
That is the main one that I did and that I found useful. And in fact, one of the other strategies that I came across was basically mindfulness by a different name. It was like noting, which is basically just noting the things you're seeing or feeling or hearing.
- [51:37]
Paula Pant
Like literally taking notes?
- [51:39]
Olga Kazan
No, no, just like mentally mental Noting. Yeah, I found that to be way more challenging than just meditation. I took an intensive meditation class called mbsr.
- [51:50]
Paula Pant
What? And.
- [51:51]
Olga Kazan
And Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction. It's like the most studied meditation class that's out there. So I think 10 weeks or something like that. Or maybe. Yeah, I think something like 10 weeks. And you meditate for 45 minutes a day and you learn about Buddhism. And I would say the learning about Buddhism element was more helpful to me than even the meditation per se. But. Yeah.
- [52:17]
Paula Pant
Neuroticism is the one attribute in which being high neuroticism, it does or it does not correlate with success.
- [52:25]
Olga Kazan
It does not.
- [52:26]
Paula Pant
It does not.
- [52:26]
Olga Kazan
No.
- [52:27]
Paula Pant
So that feels counterintuitive.
- [52:29]
Olga Kazan
I know. Because so many successful people are neurotic, but they're kind of successful despite their neuroticism. And then if you think about things that involve a great deal of financial risk, which often leads to financial success, it requires a low level of neuroticism to even participate in that kind of thing. So, like, people who do invest. It does involve risk. And being too anxious or too unwilling to take risks means that you're not really doing that.
- [53:00]
Paula Pant
So neuroticism can lead to being too.
- [53:02]
Olga Kazan
Conservative with your money, too cautious, or just, like, unable to make decisions, unable to break free of, like, analysis paralysis.
- [53:11]
Paula Pant
Right. Too indecisive. Too analysis paralysis. Too overly cautious. Overly conservative. Okay, that makes sense. Actually, it reminds me, there's a quote from the finance writer Morgan Housel, who says, pessimists get to be. Right. Optimists get to be rich.
- [53:28]
Olga Kazan
Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And when they look at the personality types of CEOs, it's usually, like, extroverted, low agreeableness and then, like, low neuroticism. Because starting a company involves a lot of risk, and the people willing to take risks are able to at least manage their anxiety and not let it overwhelm them.
- [53:46]
Paula Pant
You said low agreeableness.
- [53:48]
Olga Kazan
Yeah. People who start comfy. Yeah.
- [53:51]
Paula Pant
Why is that?
- [53:52]
Olga Kazan
Because being sort of dominant and, like, top of the food chain and getting what you want, it tends to be just a personality type that is low in, like, the touchy feely element of agreeableness.
- [54:07]
Paula Pant
Interesting. Okay. High extroversion, low agreeableness, and low neuroticism. So the low neuroticism leads to the confidence to be able to take risks.
- [54:17]
Olga Kazan
Yeah.
- [54:17]
Paula Pant
The low agreeableness means that you have strong leadership, you know?
- [54:23]
Olga Kazan
Yeah.
- [54:23]
Paula Pant
And I'm not strong vision.
- [54:24]
Olga Kazan
I'm not saying people are gonna love you. The classic example is, like, Steve Jobs, who is like, he was a difficult person, but like a visionary, you know. So that's what they're talking about there.
- [54:33]
Paula Pant
Right. And then the high extroversion. So you can be around a large team pretty much 24. 7.
- [54:38]
Olga Kazan
Yes.
- [54:38]
Paula Pant
During all your waking hours. And that doesn't drain you.
- [54:41]
Olga Kazan
Exactly.
- [54:42]
Paula Pant
So, yeah, that makes that the Steve Jobs prototype is actually a perfect example of that, because you can really see that in what's been written about him.
- [54:51]
Olga Kazan
And you were asking about, like, other techniques. This doesn't really help with, like, all consuming anxiety, but if you have a specific worry that is like standing in the way of doing something, making some sort of leap. One strategy that I learned from Tracy Dennis Tiwari is by all means, write down everything bad that could happen. Like, make your little list of all the bad possibilities, but then also take a minute and think about all the good things that could happen. Imagine the positive outcomes that are also possible. Because really, in most situations in life, both are true. Right. Bad things and good things can happen. But when we get to be very focused in and dwelling in neuroticism, we can only see that left hand column of. Of everything bad.
- [55:35]
Paula Pant
Right. So we've now covered all five, the entire Ocean acronym. Do you have any sort of overarching takeaways for this audience in terms of how to use the concept of understanding the big five personality traits and understanding that these are malleable and that we can choose to move along this spectrum if we want to? Are there any overarching takeaways for the audience in terms of how to apply this to their own lives?
- [56:04]
Olga Kazan
I would basically never tell yourself that you can't do something because you're just not that way. So if an opportunity comes up that requires public speaking and you've never spoken publicly before, and that just doesn't seem like something you would do, I would not let that stand in your way. I would say the only way to make it something that you would do is to do it. So take small steps every day to get you closer to that goal that you want to achieve. And you will basically be working on that personality trait in question, whether it's conscientiousness, whether it's extroversion, whether it's something else. Just changing a few small things every day or every week, going to one new thing, trying to time your shower and eyeliner routine, whatever it is is that you're working on. Just stacking those building blocks up will make it so that you actually can change your personality in the direction that you Want?
- [57:02]
Paula Pant
Excellent. Well, thank you so much for spending this time with us. Where can people find you if they'd like to know more?
- [57:06]
Olga Kazan
Yeah, they can find me, but better anywhere books are sold. They can read my writing@theAtlantic.com and I also have a substack@olgahazan.substack.com Perfect.
- [57:18]
Paula Pant
Thank you. We'll link to all of those in the show notes as well.
- [57:20]
Olga Kazan
Yeah. Thank you so much.
- [57:23]
Paula Pant
Thank you. Olga, what are three key takeaways that we got from this conversation? Key takeaway number one. Personality is not fixed, it's flexible. We've all heard people say, well, that's just how I am. But science now tells us that this isn't entirely true. Your personality traits are not set in stone. They can change over time, both naturally as well as through deliberate effort. And this is really big news for anybody who wants to advance their career or step into entrepreneurship. Maybe you've always been really nervous. You think that you're too anxious to take financial risks, or you think that you're not outgoing enough to be in a sales position, or that you're too disorganized to be in management. Understanding that your personality traits are flexible, they're malleable, that opens up a ton of possibilities for growth in exactly the areas that are holding you back professionally. So this really jives with the notion of having a growth mindset, which comes from Stanford professor Carol Dweck. And the thing about personality change is that initially the changes might be subtle, but you know how compounding works. Really small incremental changes can compound over time. Anything to quote a previous guest on this podcast, the heal bloom, anything greater than zero compounds. So no matter how small the change is, these really small, consistent shifts transform you in ways that over time become major.
- [58:51]
Olga Kazan
A lot of people do say, I haven't changed. I've been exactly the same since I was a little kid. I will say that that's pretty unusual. Most of us do change over time. The changes might be kind of subtle, so you might not notice it in someone else. They might not even notice it in themselves.
- [59:10]
Paula Pant
So that's the first key takeaway. Key takeaway number two. Work on increasing your conscientiousness. Because if there's one personality trait that is most directly linked to both career advancement and financial success, it's conscientiousness. It's being organized, timely, productive, and following through. And that's the opposite of Allah. This is certainly the opposite of me, right? Like for those of us who struggle with procrastination and with follow through, how do we actually become more conscientious? Because as we've just established, we can. Personality can change. Where we fall along the conscientiousness spectrum, that can change. So how do we do it? Well, Olga shared a fascinating technique called episodic future thinking, which can help break through procrastination. She recommends vividly visualizing the positive outcome of completing a task. Not just the end result, but everything. The praise, the recognition, the feeling of relief or the feeling of achievement. Everything that you can use to motivate yourself through the boring parts. Give yourself that dopamine rush, even when the parts are boring. This type of episodic future thinking, this mental rehearsal creates a stronger connection between the tedium of today and the rewards of tomorrow, whether those rewards are a promotion or a bigger bank account, or simply earning the respect of your colleagues.
- [60:39]
Olga Kazan
One strategy that I thought was really interesting is called episodic future thinking. And this is when you envision very, very clearly the end result that you want. Let's say you are procrastinating on a PowerPoint presentation that you're going to present to, like a team at work. Episodic future thinking is basically like, okay, take a minute and stop and think about that. You're giving the PowerPoint. It's beautifully designed. You're so eloquent. Your boss and everyone else applauds and is like, wow, you're such a star.
- [61:13]
Paula Pant
Finally, key takeaway number three. There are three traits. Three key traits that successful entrepreneurs share. If you have ever wondered if you have what it takes to start a business, well, there is actually a specific personality profile that tends to thrive in leadership roles. And that doesn't mean, oh, you're just born with the right traits. I'm putting born with in air quotes. You can't see me, but you know I'm putting born with in air quotes, right? Nobody is born with the right traits. That's fixed mindset thinking. Instead, there are personality attributes that you can change and you can strengthen if you want to lead a company. And so the winning combination seems to be high extroversion, meaning you have a lot of energy for interacting with others. Low agreeableness, which means you need the ability to make tough decisions without excessive people pleasing. You need to quote the title of an excellent book, you need the courage to be disliked. I'm going to say that. I'm going to slow down and say that again. You need the courage to be disliked. And if you want to learn more, there's a great book with that title high extroversion, which means you're great with people, combined with low agreeableness, which means you're not a people pleaser, you don't have a fawning trauma response. And you also need low neuroticism, which means emotional stability, which will allow you to take bigger risks and which will allow you to deal with the anxieties, the stresses, the volatility, the uncertainty. If you think of somebody like Steve Jobs, he was not always the nicest guy in the room, but he had vision, decisiveness, and comfort with risk. That combination of traits created one of the world's most valuable companies. And so the good news, no matter where you fall along the spectrum, is that by understanding these patterns, you know what specific areas you need to work on if your goal is entrepreneurship or even more generally, leadership.
- [63:23]
Olga Kazan
When they look at the personality types of CEOs, it's usually like extroverted, low agreeableness, and then like low neuroticism. Because starting a company involves a lot of risk and the people willing to take risks are able to at least manage their anxiety and not let it overwhelm them. I'm not saying people are going to love you. The classic example is like Steve Jobs, who was like he was a difficult person, but like a visionary.
- [63:46]
Paula Pant
Those are three key takeaways from this conversation with Olga Kazan, the author of a book called Me But Better, which is all about the science of personality change. Thank you so much for tuning in. If you enjoyed today's episode, please do three things. First, subscribe to our newsletter affordanything.com newsletter where we release long in depth analyses that you will not find anywhere else. It's not on the podcast, it's not on YouTube, certainly not on Instagram or TikTok or Twitter. What we publish in our newsletter you won't find anywhere else. So affordanything.com newsletter it is absolutely free affordanything.com newsletter so that's thing number one that you can do. Thing number two is please recommend this podcast to all your friends, your family, your veterinarian, your bartender, your hairstylist or barber, the person at the shoe store, that guy at the butcher shop, the security person who works at the HOA gate for the gated community that you occasionally visit because your college roommate lives there. Recommend this podcast to all of those people and more because that is the single most important way that you spread these ideas. So that's the number two thing you can do. And number three, open up your favorite podcast playing Apple. Make sure that you hit the follow button so you don't miss any of our amazing upcoming episodes. And while you're there, you can leave us up to a five star review and please write a few words. Tell us what you enjoy about the show. Thank you so much for tuning in. This is the Afford Anything podcast. My name's Pahla Pant and I'll meet you in the next episode.