Afford Anything Podcast Summary: "Your Goals Might Be Killing You (Literally)" with Sebastian Page
Release Date: May 23, 2025 | Host: Paula Pant | Guest: Sebastian Page, Chief Investment Officer at T. Rowe Price and Author of "The Psychology of Leadership"
1. Introduction: The Dark Side of Goal Setting
Paula Pant opens the episode by posing a provocative question: "What if your goals are actually making you miserable?" She introduces Sebastian Page, who shares his harrowing experience in 2005 when he nearly lost his life due to a mysterious bacterial infection. This near-death experience became a catalyst for Sebastian to reevaluate his approach to goal setting and success.
Notable Quote:
"Philosophers say you should think about death. It sounds very depressing, but it can actually be uplifting. It helps you put things in perspective."
— Sebastian Page [00:44]
2. Rethinking Goals Through Positive Psychology
Sebastian delves into the concept of positive psychology, emphasizing that long-term happiness is more deeply rooted in the quality of our relationships than in financial or professional achievements. He references Harvard's 80-year longitudinal study, which found no significant correlation between climbing the social ladder or accumulating wealth and increased happiness. Instead, the study highlighted that strong, positive relationships are the primary drivers of long-term fulfillment.
Key Insights:
- Positive Psychology vs. Traditional Psychology: While traditional psychology often focuses on mental illness, positive psychology explores how individuals can thrive and achieve lasting happiness.
- PERMA Model: Sebastian introduces the PERMA framework—Positive Emotions, Engagement, Relationships, Meaning, and Accomplishment—as foundational elements for a fulfilling life.
Notable Quote:
"The number one factor of long-term thriving, long-term happiness was the quality of one's relationships with the people around them."
— Sebastian Page [09:38]
3. The Pitfalls of Goal-Induced Blindness
A significant portion of the discussion centers on "goal-induced blindness," a phenomenon where an intense focus on specific goals leads individuals to overlook other important aspects of their lives, including their well-being and ethical considerations. Sebastian shares personal anecdotes from his career in money management, illustrating how relentless pursuit of success nearly cost him his health.
Examples Highlighting Goal-Induced Blindness:
- Business Ethics: Referencing the Wells Fargo scandal, Sebastian explains how aggressive sales targets led employees to open fraudulent accounts.
- Personal Health: His own experience of pushing too hard in his career resulted in a severe illness, underscoring the dangers of neglecting personal well-being for professional success.
Notable Quote:
"Goal-induced blindness can lead you down a dark alley where you're just not being careful about how you handle your life and you become exhausted and you burn out."
— Sebastian Page [15:31]
4. Applying Financial Concepts to Life Decisions
Sebastian introduces the concept of Net Present Value (NPV) from finance, advocating its application beyond monetary investments to personal life decisions. By evaluating the future benefits against current costs, individuals can make more informed choices that align with their long-term happiness and fulfillment.
Practical Applications:
- Career Choices: Assessing whether a current career path offers greater long-term benefits compared to alternative options.
- Relationship Decisions: Determining the value of maintaining or ending personal relationships based on future happiness.
Notable Quote:
"Net present value forces you to look long term, to look at the benefits over time and to trade off sometimes short-term pain for long-term gain."
— Sebastian Page [22:09]
5. Understanding the PERMA Framework
Sebastian elaborates on the PERMA model, a cornerstone of positive psychology developed by Martin Seligman. He explains each component and its significance in fostering a thriving life.
- Positive Emotions (P): Experiencing joy, gratitude, and pleasure.
- Engagement (E): Being deeply involved in activities that utilize one's strengths.
- Relationships (R): Building and maintaining meaningful connections.
- Meaning (M): Pursuing activities that are significant and purposeful.
- Accomplishment (A): Achieving goals and mastering challenges.
Notable Quote:
"Engagement is like proteins for your soul... positive emotions are like a sugar high."
— Sebastian Page [33:35]
6. The Big Five Personality Traits and Their Impact
A substantial segment of the conversation is dedicated to the Big Five Personality Traits—Openness, Conscientiousness, Extroversion, Agreeableness, and Neuroticism—and how they influence personal and professional life.
- Openness to Experience: Appreciation for art, emotion, adventure, and unusual ideas.
- Conscientiousness: High levels indicate discipline and organization, while low levels may relate to creativity and flexibility.
- Extroversion: Energy derived from interacting with others; introverts may prefer solitude.
- Agreeableness: Tendency to be compassionate and cooperative; low agreeableness can sometimes foster critical thinking.
- Neuroticism: Emotional instability and tendency towards anxiety.
Sebastian and Paula engage in a revealing self-assessment, discovering that they are opposites across all five traits. This exercise underscores the importance of understanding one's personality in fostering empathy and effective teamwork.
Notable Quote:
"We all tend to get defensive when someone questions our idea... collaboration is super important in money management."
— Sebastian Page [41:08]
7. Control Theory and Strategic Patience in Decision-Making
Introducing Control Theory, Sebastian explains how starting with the end goal in mind and working backward can enhance decision-making processes. This approach advocates for strategic patience, where individuals discern which decisions require immediate action and which benefit from a more measured, thoughtful approach.
Applications Discussed:
- Hiring Decisions: Using the "secretary problem" to determine optimal timing for making hires.
- Relationship Choices: Applying mathematical models to evaluate long-term relationship prospects.
Notable Quote:
"Think about how your standards should kind of go down... strategic patience is useful."
— Sebastian Page [61:11]
8. Stress, Performance, and the Yerkes-Dodson Law
Sebastian touches upon the Yerkes-Dodson Law, which posits an inverted-U relationship between stress and performance. Moderate levels of stress can enhance performance, while too little or too much stress can be detrimental.
Key Points:
- Optimal Performance: Achieved not at zero stress but at a balanced level of arousal.
- Individual Variations: Different tasks and individuals have unique optimal stress levels.
- Practical Example: Athletes manage stress to maximize performance without succumbing to burnout.
Notable Quote:
"Optimal performance does not happen at zero stress. Most people don't know we all want to be resilient."
— Sebastian Page [50:26]
9. Conclusion: Integrating Financial Wisdom with Personal Fulfillment
Paula summarizes the conversation with three key takeaways:
- Financial Concepts Applied to Life: Using ideas like net present value to make informed life decisions.
- The Dark Side of Goals: Recognizing how relentless pursuit of goals can lead to burnout and loss of well-being.
- Money vs. Happiness: Emphasizing that quality relationships are more significant for long-term happiness than financial success.
Sebastian emphasizes the importance of balancing professional ambitions with personal happiness and the quality of relationships, advocating for a holistic approach to success.
Final Thoughts:
This episode of Afford Anything challenges conventional notions of success by highlighting the profound impact of psychological factors on our life choices. Sebastian Page provides valuable insights into how integrating positive psychology, understanding personality traits, and applying financial principles can lead to more fulfilling and balanced lives.
Connect with Sebastian Page: Sebastian invites listeners to follow him on various social media platforms, with a primary presence on LinkedIn, Instagram, and TikTok.
For more insights and episodes, subscribe to the Afford Anything podcast and join the community committed to making smarter, more fulfilling life decisions.