Focus on Africa: Is the jailing of a former Zambian minister a watershed moment?

Summary

Focus on Africa: Is the jailing of a former Zambian minister a watershed moment?

Podcast: Africa Daily / Focus on Africa, BBC World Service
Host: Charles Gitonga
Date: September 5, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode tackles three main stories:

• The landmark sentencing of two former Zambian officials for corruption, discussing its implications for anti-corruption efforts in Zambia.
• Egypt’s crackdown on TikTok influencers, highlighting tensions between digital freedoms and government-imposed “moral values.”
• The cultural debate over the definition of the celebrated Congolese dish, liboke, after its inclusion in the French dictionary.

The episode blends in-depth interviews, first-hand reactions, and expert commentary to provide African perspectives on key social and political issues.

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1. Zambia’s Anti-Corruption Watershed?

[Main Segment: 01:01–10:03]

Key Points & Insights

• Former Foreign Minister Joseph Malangi sentenced to four years’ hard labour for corruption; ex-Treasury Secretary Fredson Yamba gets three years for unlawful transfer of state funds.
• Both men were high-ranking officials under late President Edgar Lungu—these are the first such convictions under current President Hakainde Hichilema’s administration.
• Transparency International ranked Zambia among the world’s most corrupt countries in 2024.
• Reactions are mixed: some see this as a genuine victory for justice, others as politically selective.

Expert Analysis: Kennedy Gondwe, Zambian Journalist

• Why this case matters:

  • "The convictions are certainly very important, especially given the fact that this latest one involves one of the most high-profile former ministers and the amount of money involved is quite huge."
    (Kennedy Gondwe, 02:28)
  • Public interest is high because "if the money were invested...how many kids would be educated? How many graduates would Zambia produce as opposed to that money going into the pockets of a selected few?"

• Mood in Court & Public Reactions:

  • "It was that of shock, it was somber, but it’s what it is. At the end of the day, justice has not only been seen to be done, but it’s been served."
    (Gondwe, 03:20)
  • Malangi still has some sympathizers; "Even if we’re given a dog to vote in your place, we’ll still vote for that place." (Gondwe, 03:57)

• Possibility of Appeal:

  • “Indications are that they will commence their leave of appeal. In fact, there have been unconfirmed reports they've already appealed...”
    (Gondwe, 04:21)

• Justice Perceived?

  • “Majority of the people feel that justice has been served. Except that there’s a mixed reaction on the length of the convictions...people feel that the sentences are actually shorter, others feel that they are harsh...”
    (Gondwe, 04:40)

• Is President Hichilema Delivering on Anti-Corruption?

  • “He’s definitely delivering on that. This is a high profile conviction. There have been ministers that have also been convicted for various offenses...However, his critics argue that he’s concentrating so much on past corruption...How about his own cabinet?”
    (Gondwe, 05:35)
  • No serving minister from the current administration has faced similar scrutiny.

• Selective Justice & Political Motivation?

  • “Members of the former ruling party that Edgar Lungu led are saying this corruption is only targeted at us. It’s politicized...We also want to see arrests and convictions of serving ministers.”
    (Gondwe, 07:32)

• Zambia’s Struggle with Corruption:

  • “Our index is quite bad. Our perception and image is quite bad...It’s incumbent upon the government and those charged with fighting corruption to really put their heads together and fight this corruption fairly, without fear and favor.”
    (Gondwe, 08:40)
  • Lack of action against current officials erodes faith in reform, especially as Zambia faces economic challenges.

Memorable Quotes

• “Justice has not only been seen to be done, but it’s been served.” (Gondwe, 03:20)
• “There is still room for the current government and president to fight that corruption, not only in words but in action.” (Gondwe, 09:22)
• “This whole fight may just be a fight in the newspapers.” (Gondwe, 09:55)

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2. Egypt’s Crackdown on TikTok Influencers

[Segment: 10:03–20:40]

Key Points & Insights

• Dozens of online content creators—including teenagers—have been arrested in Egypt under a cybercrime law that condemns acts “offensive to family values and public morals.”
• High-profile arrests include 19-year-old influencer Mariam Ayman (Suzy l. Ordonia).
• Law is vague: “family principle” undefined, raising constitutional issues around freedom of expression.

Expert Voices:

• Amir Mahdi, Human Rights Watch Researcher, and BBC’s Rahab Ismail

  • Nature of Crackdown:

    • “Egyptian authorities since late July 2025 [are] carrying out a mass campaign of sweeping arrests and prosecutions targeting online content creators, influencers, but also Betty dancers, tattoo artists...”
      (Bernard Sacchilini for Mahdi, 10:44)
    • 27 confirmed arrests, possibly up to 41 or more.

  • Government Perspective:

    • Justifies actions as protecting “family values” under the cybercrime law.
      (Ismail, 13:04)
    • Law’s vagueness allows broad interpretation: “These value or these definitions sometimes could be a bit vague and they could be interpreted according to every person’s personal values or personal way and his lifestyle.”
      (Ismail, 13:57)

  • Public Debate:

    • Some families worry about negative role models for youth; others—especially activists—see curbs on free speech.
      (Ismail, 13:57 and 19:18)
    • Concerns also about the “fast way of gaining money and being rich is also a great concern for many people.”
      (Ismail, 19:18)

  • TikTok’s Response and Stakes:

    • Parliament gave TikTok three months to clamp down or risk being banned in Egypt, a market of over 100 million.
    • TikTok claims to have deleted 2.9 million videos proactively.
      (Ismail, 17:10)

Memorable Quotes

• “The government’s desire to control the public sphere...they are actually quite frightened by the audacity of the new generations, by the ability of those young people to express themselves freely.” (Mahdi via Sacchilini, 12:08)
• “Some families see that TikTok isn’t a safest space, especially for their younger generations and the younger people and their daughters and their sons.” (Ismail, 19:18)
• “It should stay a space that is free for people to express themselves freely.” (Ismail, 20:22)

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3. Meaning and Memory: The Debate Over Liboke in the French Dictionary

[Segment: 20:40–32:16]

Key Points & Insights

• The revered Congolese dish liboke was recently added to the French Petit Larousse dictionary, described simply as “a dish of fish or meat wrapped in banana leaves and cooked over charcoal.”
• While some Congolese welcome the publicity, others—especially native speakers—argue the definition is reductive and misses cultural and culinary nuances.

Voices from the DRC and France

• Local Perspectives:

  • “The definition is good, but it’s missing something. Yes, when they say banana leaves. It is not only banana leaves that are used to cook liboke.” (Kennedy Gondwe, 21:48)
  • “The definition provides the clear picture...and it will be easy for other nationals across the world to have the clear picture of what liboke is.” (Bonaventure Sangamgongo, 22:01)

• Bernard Sacchilini, Linguist & Dictionary Advisor:

  • “Leboke is a word in Lingala, the most spoken language in the DRC. In Lingala, le bokeh means a dish...but it’s got another meaning. It means conviviality, and that happiness comes from being together. But we can’t add all the meanings of a word in the dictionary.” (Sacchilini, 23:06)
  • “Every word is entitled to two to three lines, not more than that. So despite our love for le bokeh, we couldn’t have done it any better.” (Sacchilini, 24:11)

• Cultural Significance:

  • “Liboke comes from the word liboke in Lingala, which means unity, harmonious unity…People living in harmony...So this word gave rise to liboke simply because the fish which is put inside the liboke, when you open it up, it is set up in a harmonious way.”
    (Sangamgongo, 27:34)
  • The dish is a weekend food, best enjoyed on the banks of the Congo river with others. “Most people take it with beer, as I have medical restrictions, I take it with zero Coke, sometimes with plain water, and I enjoy it.” (Sangamgongo, 25:18)

• Defining Ingredients & Preparation:

  • “In the definition, they use banana leaves. Whereas mostly in DRC, and especially in Kinshasa, we do not use banana leaves. We use a special leaf...called Congo. It’s a special leaf which ensures that the liboke is waterproof, there’s no soup leaking.” (Sangamgongo, 29:12)
  • Madeleine, Bonaventure’s daughter, offers a detailed description of preparing liboke: clean the fish, mix with onions and spices, wrap tightly in Congo leaves, and cook over fire. (31:04)

Memorable Moments

• “Even myself when talking, I could feel my mouth watering.”
  (Sangamgongo, 32:11)

• “Liboke...means conviviality, and that happiness comes from being together.”
  (Sacchilini, 23:06)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Zambia corruption verdicts & significance: 01:01–10:03
• Egypt TikTok crackdown: 10:03–20:40
• Liboke and the cultural dictionary debate: 20:40–32:16

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Conclusion

This episode spotlights the complexities of progress and tradition across Africa—from political reforms and the struggle for transparent governance, to the debate over social media freedoms, to the safeguarding of cultural identity. Each story is a window onto the ways African societies contend with global pressures while holding on to their unique narratives. The voices assembled here offer insight, challenge, and celebration, making "Focus on Africa" true to its name.

Transcript

[Bonaventure Sangamgongo]

Foreign.

[Charles Gitonga]

Here is what's coming up for you on this edition of FOCUS on Africa. Zambia sentences two former high ranking government officials to prison for corruption is yet a turning point for the fight against graft in the country. Why are tiktokers being sent to jail in Egypt?

[Bernard Sacchilini]

These people face possible jail time under the Article 25 of the Cybercrime law which penalizes what's allegedly viewed by the government as content undermining family values and.

[Charles Gitonga]

Why some are unhappy with the way a treasured Congolese dish, lyboke, has been defined by the French dictionary. What's cooking?

[Bonaventure Sangamgongo]

My objection. In the definition they use banana leaves, whereas mostly in DRC and especially in Kinshasa we use a special leaf which is very common in our forests and it is called Kongo.

[Charles Gitonga]

It's Friday, September 5th. First we go to Lusaka. A court in Zambia has sentenced the country's former foreign minister to four years in prison with hard labour for corruption. Joseph Malangi was accused of using public funds to buy property, including two helicopters. He's co accused. Former Treasury Secretary Fredson Yamba received a three year jail term for approving the transfer of more than $8 million to Zambia's mission in Turkey without justification. The convictions mark a watershed moment in the country's fight against corruption and a major win for state prosecutors in the Southern Africa country, which Transparency International ranked among the world's most corrupt in the 2024 Perception Index. President Hakainde Hichilema came to power four years ago promising to root out corruption. But critics say progress has been slow. Malangi and Yamba were the first senior officials from former President Edgar Lungu's administration to face corruption charges under Hichilema. It is not yet clear if the pair will challenge the ruling. I've been hearing more from Kennedy Gondwe, a freelance journalist in Zambia. How significant are these convictions for the country's fight against corruption?

[Kennedy Gondwe]

Charles the convictions are certainly very important, especially given the fact that this latest one involves one of the most high profile former ministers and the amount of money involved is quite huge. If you're going to talk about millions of dollars being irregularly transferred to buy property in Turkey. If you're going to talk about people owning helicopters and houses suspected to be process of crime, that would mean a lot. If the money were invested, say in the education sector, in the social sector, health sector, how many cancer patients, for instance, would be saved if that money were invested? How many kids would be educated? How many graduates would Zambia produce as opposed to that money? Going into the pockets of a selected few. So certainly it's a victory. And Zambians are looking more to such convictions.

[Charles Gitonga]

I wonder what the mood was in court when these sentences were handed down to these two very powerful people.

[Kennedy Gondwe]

It was that of shock, it was somber, but it's what it is. At the end of the day, justice has not only been seen to be done, but it's been served to those people when they were finally sentenced. Because remember that on the first day they were obviously convicted and they were found guilty. And then the sentencing happened the following day when they were finally being led to the vehicle that took them to their cells. There were a handful of supporters that lined up encouraging, especially Mr. Malanji, who's a former member of Parliament, to remain strong. They thanked him for his generosity at the time that obviously he was member of parliament. And one of them even said that come elections next year, because Zambia will be having general elections next year. Even if we're given a dog to vote in your place, we'll still vote for that place. So they encouraged him to be strong as he strode past them without saying a word. So despite the prediction, he still has some support base.

[Charles Gitonga]

Yeah, I can hear that. So do we know if Joseph Malangi or even Franson Yamba, who's co accused, are they planning to appeal these rulings?

[Kennedy Gondwe]

Indications are that they will commence their leave of appeal. In fact, there have been unconfirmed reports that they've already appealed, but not until the court papers are submitted or that remains speculation.

[Charles Gitonga]

So their supporters are not happy about what's happened. But do the rest of the country feel that the this is justice being served?

[Kennedy Gondwe]

Yes, majority of the people feel that justice has been served. Except that there's a mixed reaction on the length of the convictions. We've seen in Zambia, where someone steals a chicken from a store, they're going for almost the same period, if not more. Someone being found guilty of being in possession of a few grams of marijuana, they'll go in for the same length or not even more. But you're talking about people that stole millions of dollars. We are talking about people that served at different levels, but they've only gone in for three and four years respectively. So there are people that feel that the sentences are actually shorter, others feel that they are harsh. Regardless of how you look at it, at least justice has been saved and people are happy.

[Charles Gitonga]

So the president Hichilema promised to root out corruption when he took office. Does the way he rules show that he's delivering on that promise? Or can we say this is just a start? These convictions that have been handed out.

[Kennedy Gondwe]

He'S definitely delivering on that. This is a high profile conviction. And there have been ministers that have also been convicted for various offenses, ministers that served in the last regime. However, his critics argue that he's concentrating so much on past corruption or corruption that was committed by officials that lost power in 2021 to the current government, the UPND. How about his own cabinet? There have been allegations of corruption in the land administration, for instance, in the health sector, in the agriculture sector. And the only thing that we've seen are junior officers being arrested, being suspended, being fired. The top fish, as it were, have not been touched. Zambia is yet to see a minister that has been arrested or prosecuted under the current government. And it's because of that that there are people that are putting up a strong case against the politicization of the justice system, the politicization of the so called corruption cases. We've heard about and see reports of the Auditor General's office, but nothing has led to any conviction of any senior government official. Right now it's good to fight past corruption because it's already happened, money has already exchanged hands, but it's even much more important to prevent and fight corruption that is happening now and the future. And I think that is where a lot of criticism is being leveled against the President. Perhaps we should also extend such scrutiny to the investigative wings. It's become a norm in Zambia where most of the times that there's a new government corruption is so much centered on the past officials. Hardly do we see any convictions successively of sitting ministers. And believe me, you, based on past experience and what we've seen, whenever this government is going to leave power, then suddenly there will be a flurry of arrests and convictions.

[Charles Gitonga]

And when we talk about dealing with past corruption, these are cases targeting allies of the former president Edgar Lungu, who died in June, actually, isn't it?

[Kennedy Gondwe]

Yes. And that's what we are dealing with because most of them that have been arrested, there's more than five senior officials that served in the previous government that have been arrested and successfully convicted. We've not seen any of those that have been arrested serving right now. And members of the former ruling party that Edgar Lungu led are saying this corruption is only targeted at us. It's politicized. It's not corruption as it is supposed to be. Because if at all it's, it is corruption as it is supposed to be. We also want to see arrests and convictions of serving ministers.

[Charles Gitonga]

So if we look at the ranking of Zambia in the corruption index by an organization like Transparency International. It doesn't rank that well as a country. In fact, it was listed as one of the most corrupt nations in the 2024 Corruption Perception Index. Some high profile cases have been prosecuted. What we've been talking about, you say that in terms of current cases and suspicions of corruption that's not being investigated or prosecuted. In fact, where does this all leave the country as far as addressing this systemic corruption that we keep hearing about?

[Kennedy Gondwe]

Unfortunately, on that score, Charles, our index is quite bad. Our perception and image is quite bad. It's incumbent upon the government and those charged with fighting corruption to really put their heads together and fight this corruption fairly, without fear and favor. When Zambia was under the late president Levi Monawasa, the corruption index or performance of corruption fight was really high up there. But what we saw soon after his demise is that index going down and it's not really reason. Politicians have come in and gone promising to fight corruption when it suits them. But once they've taken over government, the opposite is what they've ended up doing. There is still room for the current government and president to fight that corruption, not only in words but but in action. When you've got heads of investigative wings known to support the current government, you wonder whether they would sit down a minister who in hierarchy may be higher than them and investigate them. So it's really, really an indictment on the current government to put action into what they've been saying because they've got an opportunity to turn things around. And Zambia is in need of money. We defaulted on debt. We're highly indebted as it is. We've got problems with power. There's obviously a lot of investment needed in different sectors, but for as long as money continuously gets stolen and nothing really is done about it, especially cases that are currently happening, then this whole fight may just be a fight in the newspapers.

[Charles Gitonga]

That's Kennedy Gondwe in Zambia. We are in Egypt now where authorities have given the social media company TikTok three months to fall in line with what it calls societal and moral values in the country. Officials say some of the videos on the platform contain obscene language and violate public morals. Dozens of teenage TikTok influencers have been arrested in recent weeks on charges such as violating family values, indecency and money laundering. Amir Mahdi, a senior researcher with the Middle Eastern and North African region at Human Rights Watch. So what exactly is happening with digital content creators in Egypt?

[Bernard Sacchilini]

We've witnessed the Egyptian authorities since late July 2025 carrying out a mass campaign of sweeping arrests and prosecutions targeting online content creators, influencers, but also Betty dancers, tattoo artists. And we found almost or at least 27 people arrested. But there are credible media and human rights reports that recorded as many as 41. This is only the cases we've been able to monitor and I believe the number is even more.

[Charles Gitonga]

One of those arrested in August is Mariam Ayman, also known as Suzy l. Ordonia, a 19 year old influencer with over 9 million followers. The Egyptian Interior Ministry says she was taken into custody because complaints were received about her posts. In 2022 students were imprisoned and fined on similar charges of violating family values. The Egyptian government maintains these tiktokers are violating the cybercrime law which states that anyone who infringes upon a family principle or value of the Egyptian society will be punished with imprisonment of no less than six months with a fine of between one and US$2,000. Here is Mahdi again. He believes the Egyptian government is using this legislation to curb social media influencers.

[Bernard Sacchilini]

I think what actually lies behind this campaign is the government's desire to relentless actually desire to control the public sphere, to control the online public sphere as well and to enforce their views on a 100 million population. And I think they are actually quite frightened by the audacity of the new generations, by the ability of those young people to express themselves freely and to challenge political and social norms.

[Charles Gitonga]

So the crux of the matter is that the Egyptian cyber law does not actually state exactly what a family principle is. It also appears to contradict the Egyptian constitution which guarantees freedom of expression. The BBC's Rahab Ismail has been following developments and and she began our conversation by explaining the Egyptian government's point of view.

[Rahab Ismail]

So the Egyptian government and the authorities has framed its actions through different reports or through different officials that this is part of a broader effort to protecting family values and uphold the law. And this is mainly or hugely linked to the countries cybercrime law and particularly articles that criminalize content that seems offensive to family values or public morals. And from this point that's what human rights or some advocates are arguing that these terms are a bit vague and they need to be more specific.

[Charles Gitonga]

So they say they want to safeguard these family norms and values at least from what they are reporting. And what the government is saying is that clear to everybody what these family norms are.

[Rahab Ismail]

That's what human rights advocates some argue is that these value or these definitions sometimes could be a bit vague and they could be interpreted According to every person's personal values or personal way and his lifestyle. But on the other hand, some families actually argue that those content creators sometimes use language that's unappropriate. They do actions that are not appropriate. So they shouldn't be guiding or leading the younger generations or play with their mind or showing them that this is the only way that you can be very rich very fast. So we have actually two point of views are arguing all the time.

[Charles Gitonga]

So there's a way in which if you are a content creator, you know, in Egypt you are viewed as a role model, as someone that people can look at. I'm asking because for example, one of these cases involves a 19 year old woman.

[Rahab Ismail]

Yeah. There are actually not only one case, some cases actually during the past few years. We can say that these allegations have started from around 2020. So starting this, we have seen some teenagers involved in those cases and one of them actually two years went to jail. Her case started by violating the family values and so on. And then she has been convicted with human trafficking because she was inviting some girls to sign up to specific applications and so on. So she was involved in this human trafficking. But another recent case, a content creator is called Suzy Al Urdunaya. She was involved in one of those cases and let me tell you that this is not the first time that she was reported by some lawyers. And also I have to notify that most of these artists are based on reports from lawyers who base their allegations according to the cybercrime law. So some teenagers could be involved. Yes, but like we cannot say that they are specifically targeted because there are many people are involved in these cases. There are men, there are women, there are teenagers. So yeah, it's more of everyone could be involved.

[Kennedy Gondwe]

Right.

[Charles Gitonga]

So if we are to closely then look at this case involving Suzy L. Ordonia, you know, her name is also Mariam Ayman. What is she being prosecuted for specifically? Has that been clarified to her and to those defending her?

[Rahab Ismail]

So the recent allegation is that she's involved in money laundering of millions of Egyptian pounds. And that was the case not only for her, but for other at least four content creators during the past few months.

[Kennedy Gondwe]

So.

[Rahab Ismail]

So yeah, the money laundering is one of the allegations that's really targeting those or accompanying the allegations for those content creators. Of course, besides being offensive, being against the Egyptian values and so on.

[Charles Gitonga]

So TikTok has been given three months to clean up the content. If you could help us understand what the authorities in Egypt are saying about the platform and what exactly they should be doing about this content.

[Rahab Ismail]

So the parliament has been involved in some communications with TikTok platform and they have raised their concerns over this content that is against the Egyptian laws and against also the community guidelines of TikTok itself. And according to recent reports, the TikTok has removed around 2.9 million videos, some of them even before they were flagged or reported by some users. So somehow we can see that TikTok is positively accepting these concerns because after those three months the member parliament had threatened or has told TikTok that there could be some requests from other member parliaments to ban TikTok completely from Egypt. And let me tell you that Egypt is a very big market. We are talking about more than 100 million population in Egypt and TikTok is one of the most famous applications that's used with many people. And there are many amounts of gains and money those content creators and even also TikTok platform gain from those lives, from the rewards, from the collaborations, from the paid ads, from the views, millions and millions of views they gain. So TikTok has an interest that its platform operates normally in Egypt in a very large market and a country like Egypt. And also the content creators have an interest that such a platform continues and operates normally because it now shapes a very important part of their economic income. So the government is trying to regulate this, is trying to make sure that it abides by the Egyptian law and the Egyptian rules. So we will see what's going to happen after those three month end.

[Charles Gitonga]

If it is widely used in the country, how is it perceived? Do most people feel that it's a good platform or are a majority of the people just frowning upon it? Or are we talking about very specific cases of specific content creators that might do or say certain things, India content that then sparks this public discomfort around it?

[Rahab Ismail]

Yeah, let me be honest with you. As I said, some families see that TikTok isn't a safest space, especially for their younger generations and the younger people and their daughters and their sons. Some people see that they may not present a good role model for their daughters and sons. But on the other hand, the activists and the human rights groups see that such online spaces should stay free and people should be able to create a content that represents their mind, represents how they think, represents how they do in their normal life without any restrictions. So that's the argument online. And also this fast way of gaining money and being rich is also a great concern for many people, that it might make younger generations find that this is the only way that you could do to gain money. So it might change how they perceive the way they do their life, how they are eager to be educated, to do other forms of jobs, to serve their society and to serve the community. So, yes, there are some concerns from some families, but on the other hand, the human rights and advocates argue that it should stay a space that is free for people to express themselves freely.

[Charles Gitonga]

I was talking there to the BBC's Rahab Ismaile. This is Focus on Africa from the BBC World Service. Imagine a bundle of green leaves folded neatly like a gift. Inside, steam escapes from tender fish or meat seasoned with tomatoes, onions, chilies and local spices. The leaves lock in the flavor, slow cooking the food until it's smoky, rich and earthy. That's li boque, a beloved Congolese dish, and now a new entry in the Petit la Cruz French dictionary. The dictionary defines it simply as a dish of fish or meat wrapped in banana leaves and cooked over charcoal. But for many Congolese, lyboke is more than just food, its memory, tradition and cultural pride. Its inclusion in French lexicon has stirred mixed feelings. Pride on one side, backlash on the other. Some linguists argue the dictionary definition strips away the soul of what liboki truly represents. What do the Congolese feel?

[Kennedy Gondwe]

This definition is good, but it's missing something. Yes, when they say banana leaves. It is not only banana leaves that.

[Bonaventure Sangamgongo]

Are used to cook lyboke. As far as I'm concerned. The definition provides the clear picture of what liboke is, and it will be easy for other nationals across the world to have the clear picture of what liboke is.

[Charles Gitonga]

Those are some voices from the streets of Kinshasa. Bernard Sacchilini is professor emeritus of linguistics at the University of Paris and advisor to Petit Larousse. He started by reciting the French dictionary definition of le boquet.

[Bernard Sacchilini]

Le boquet is a very popular dish from the Democratic Republic of Congo. It's a fish dish cooked with vegetables wrapped up in banana leaves, and it's very delicious.

[Charles Gitonga]

But leboki is indeed more than just a dish. As Bernard explains, there are two things.

[Bernard Sacchilini]

Leboke is a word in Lingala, the most spoken language in the drc. And in Lingala, le bokeh means a dish, like I said earlier, but it's got another meaning. It's a word that's formed from another word. It means conviviality, and that happiness comes from being together. But we can't add all the meanings of a word in the dictionary.

[Charles Gitonga]

A dish wrapped in meaning. Bernard described to us the intriguing process behind the definition of liboki in their dictionary.

[Bernard Sacchilini]

We went through all the gastronomical encyclopedias, checked references on the Internet, and we even consulted a Congolese chef in Paris. And that's how we added leboke to the list of 150 new words in our dictionary this year.

[Charles Gitonga]

The definition sparked debate within the Congolese community, both at home and abroad. So could L' au Petit Larousse reconsider the other definitions of what leboki means?

[Bernard Sacchilini]

Certainly not. Certainly not, because it's the right definition and it's the literal meaning of le boque. And we don't have enough room to add more definitions. We couldn't do more than that. The criticisms are baseless, but I understand them. They love le boke. But I want to tell them le petit le Rousse is one volume with 80,000 words, and we can only add 150 new words per year. And every word is entitled to two to three lines, not more than that. So despite our love for le bokeh, we couldn't have done it any better.

[Charles Gitonga]

Bernard Sakilini, professor emeritus of linguistics at the University of Paris. I spoke with Bonaventure Sangamgongo, a former public relations officer and translator at the British Embassy in Kinshasa, drc. He told me why there is controversy over the French definition. But first, why is the dish so special to the Congolese? You'll also hear the voice of his daughter Madeleine chiming into a conversation at some point.

[Bonaventure Sangamgongo]

It's a special dish, and it's really extraordinary to me. And it's really different from the usual common meals we cook at home. And usually here in Kinshasa, it is cooked in the outskirts of Kinshasa, and people take it on the bank of the Congo river. And during the weekend, they travel miles and miles, about 30, 40, 50 kilometers, to eat this dish along the Congo River. They usually don't eat it at home. Some people try and cook it at home, but people prefer to enjoy this dish over the weekend on the outskirts in the suburbs of Kinshasa. And it is also taken across the Congo river from Brazzaville. And on this side is the. The presidential palace, Mr. Tshisekedi's palace. And along the river over the weekend, it's really crowded with people taking mabukes. Yeah. To mention that Mabuke is the plural of liboke. Most people take it with beer, as I have medical restrictions. I take it with zero Coke, sometimes with plain water, and I enjoy it. Really.

[Charles Gitonga]

I can almost see you and myself across the table. Just enjoying this somewhere in Kinshasa. But it seems that people there are not very happy about, you know, the inclusion of the word or the dish in the French dictionary. Could you tell us about that?

[Bonaventure Sangamgongo]

Well, people are happy that the word is included in the dictionary for publicity's sake. The controversy is rather around the definition by La Russ.

[Charles Gitonga]

Okay, so we want to hear more about that definition. What are some of the things that liboke means to the people of the Congo that they feel has not been reflected in this dictionary?

[Bonaventure Sangamgongo]

The origin of this word, liboke. Actually, liboke comes from the word liboke in Lingala, which means unity, harmonious unity. And usually they add to it moko, liboke, moko, moko, meaning one or single liboke, moko and moko. And added to liboke, it gives the sense of harmony. People living liboke, moko, people living in harmony. So this word gave rise to liboke simply because the fish which is put inside the liboke, when you open it up, it is set up in a harmonious way. And the flavor that comes out of it, when you open it up, when you open up the leaves, it hits you right on the nose. And this really reflects the original idea of harmony, of oneness.

[Charles Gitonga]

And so you feel that oneness and the unity of this dish is really not coming across in the definition that's been provided for. How can that happen, you know, if they were to revisit this, how can they reflect that in the dictionary to describe the things that you are telling us?

[Bonaventure Sangamgongo]

The definition in the dictionary is good. My objection is in the definition, they use banana leaves. Whereas mostly in DRC and especially in Kinshasa, we do not use banana leaves like in Uganda or any other countries. We use a special leaf which is very common in our forests, and it is called Congo. Congo. Not Congo as the country, but Congo. It's a special leaf which ensures that the liboke is waterproof, there's no soup leaking. And remember that the concept behind it is that the way it is wrapped, it is wrapped in such a way that it generates a lot of vapor, a lot of soup steam inside, and which produces a lot of soup water. But when you open it up, you see a lot of soup encompassing all the flavor of the fish. They can make it with fish and sometimes with pork meat. And there's an array of fish in traditional, local way. We have ngolo, which is commonly used. Ngolo. And what else? Yeah, the specialist beside me is whispering. Mbuto Munganza malangwa and so forth. Not any kind of fish, but there are special fish.

[Charles Gitonga]

Actually. Since your daughter is right beside you, why don't we chat to her for a minute? You know how she goes about preparing this dish.

[Bonaventure Sangamgongo]

First of all, they get the fish ready, they clean it very well and they put it in a bowl beside. Then they will get all the onions and all the other ingredients that go with it and they mix up everything together. Then they clean up the Congo leaves very well. Then they take the fish that had been prepared and everything is put into the Congo leaves and hermetically wrapped up. This is very important. Then it will go on fire.

[Kennedy Gondwe]

All right.

[Charles Gitonga]

Thank you so much. I do feel like I've had my first taste of liboke just by having this conversation with you. Thank you.

[Bonaventure Sangamgongo]

Oh, I see. Even myself when talking, I could feel my mouth watering.

[Charles Gitonga]

Bonaventure, Sanga Magongo there, giving me a virtual taste of liboke. Focus on Africa was put together by Mark Wilberforce, Sunita Naha and Yvette Dragiramaria in London. Ayuba Iliya was in Lagos. The senior producer was Patricia Whitehorn and Craig Kingham, our technical producer. Our editors are Mariam Abdallah, Andrea Lombard and Alice Muthengi. I'm Charles Gitonga and we'll speak again next time.