Why are some people dismissive of Afcon?

Summary

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Africa Daily – Why Are Some People Dismissive of Afcon?

Podcast: Africa Daily (BBC World Service)
Host: Alan Kasuja
Guests: Wael Goma, Wilfred Bony, Oluwashina Okeleji
Date: February 28, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the controversy sparked by Jamie Carragher, former England and Liverpool player, who argued on Sky Sports that the Africa Cup of Nations (AFCON) is not considered a “major” football tournament—potentially undermining the Ballon d'Or candidacy of Mohamed Salah. Host Alan Kasuja explores the backlash to Carragher’s comments among African football luminaries, the cultural significance of AFCON, and why dismissals of the tournament cut so deeply across the continent.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Controversy: Jamie Carragher’s Comments

[00:04-04:30]

• Carragher’s assertion: AFCON isn’t seen globally as a “major tournament,” which could affect Salah’s chances for the Ballon d'Or.
• Immediate Response: Outrage and condemnation from African football stars and supporters globally.
• Media Counterpoint: Daniel Sturridge and Micah Richards, also present on Sky Sports, challenged Carragher, arguing AFCON should be held in the same regard as the Euros or Copa America.

Quote:
"He basically said what stands before him and the chance of winning the Ballon d’Or is the fact that he represents Egypt ... playing for Egypt doesn’t really help his case ... because other players like Kylian Mbappé ... are playing in the Euros and the Copa Americas, two tournaments that are bigger than the AFCON ... it’s disrespectful to AFCON, the pride of Africa."
— Oluwashina Okeleji, [02:09]

2. African Legends React

[04:30-06:23]

• Strong Retorts: Several African footballing figures, including Ahmed Hassan (Egypt), El Hadji Diouf (Senegal), Hamed El Mohamady (Egypt), publicly called Carragher’s comments racist and disrespectful.
• Cultural Reverence: Alan recalls watching African icons like Rashidi Yekini and Kanu, underscoring the tournament’s unifying role and emotional weight in Africa.

Quote:
"The AFCON is the continental showpiece. … You can win Champions League, but if you’ve never won the African Cup of Nations, no one recognizes you on the continent.”
— Oluwashina Okeleji, [05:06]

3. The Emotional and National Significance of AFCON

Wilfred Bony and Wael Goma Share Their Perspectives

[06:59-09:21]

• Dream Fulfillment: Winning or even playing in AFCON is described as "more than a dream," surpassing even club success in emotional resonance.
• National Unity: The entire country rallies behind the national team—club rivalries dissolve, and all attention turns to collective pride.

Quote:
"When you're dreaming about playing [for] your country, it's nothing bigger than this ... being a hero of the country, it's like you're going to war."
— Wilfred Bony, [06:59]

• Exceptionality of the Moment:
  "Whatever I said and Wilfred said, you have to play and listen to the national anthem to feel this feeling. It's something very, very unique."
  — Wael Goma, [07:50]

The Weight of Defeat and Victory

• Intensity of Loss: Losing can bring a country to a standstill, illustrating the national stakes at play.

Quote:
"The country is like it's dead. It's like no man's land. People are crying. Look what happened in [Ivory Coast], some people lost their child because [their] country lost the game. ... You never get this with a club."
— Wilfred Bony, [08:23]

4. Is It Disrespect or Ignorance?

[09:03-10:32]

• Response to Carragher:
  Bony and Goma suggest Carragher lacks understanding because he’s never achieved national team glory and underestimates African—and Egyptian—football achievements.
• English Premier League Ties: Goma points out that many Premier League legends, like Didier Drogba, are Africans—reflecting the continent's value to global football.

Quote:
"He is completely underestimate[d] ... Egyptian football and the African football and the African player."
— Wael Goma, [10:03]

5. On Changing Attitudes Toward AFCON

[10:32-11:18]

• Western Minimization: Even Jurgen Klopp once called AFCON a “little tournament.” Bony sees these attitudes as a symptom of broader global biases and calls for changing mentalities.
• Global Importance: Bony stresses AFCON is the most significant tournament after the World Cup for Africans.

Quote:
"We have to fight for [AFCON]. We have to change the mentality of the people. ... It's the same major tournament after the World Cup, AFCON."
— Wilfred Bony, [10:43]

6. Football’s Cultural Impact in Egypt and Broader Africa

[11:29-13:20]

• Football as Oxygen: For many Egyptians, football is a vital source of hope and unity. Mohamed Salah is seen as an aspirational figure for the whole nation.
• Beyond Sports: Victory in AFCON is a driver of national happiness, even amidst other social problems, and shapes national identity.

Quote:
"Football is a kind of oxygen for the Egyptian people. ... Salah is now a symbol for the hopeness ... it’s a kind of a very big legend now for us. And everybody in Egypt want to be like Salah."
— Wael Goma, [11:29]

• AFCON as a Unifier: During the tournament, even warring factions sometimes put aside differences for football. The reach and passion for the tournament sometimes eclipses even the FIFA World Cup Finals in some African countries.

Quote:
"Imagine what the sensation you give to people. ... You can never explain this, but if you are not part of this, you can do [that] and then win that. This is something unbelievable."
— Wilfred Bony, [12:31]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [01:19] Wael Goma: “Legends lacking respect for Muhammad Salah and lacking respect for Egypt and the African footballs.”
• [01:26] Wilfred Bony: “AFCON is a major tournament, which maybe for him is not, but for all Africans, it’s majority—after the World Cup is African.”
• [07:50] Wael Goma: “Of the national anthem is something exceptional ... you have to play and listen to the national anthem to feel this feeling. It’s something very, very unique.”
• [09:08] Wilfred Bony: “It’s disrespectful for AFCON, disrespectful for the African players … maybe he doesn’t feel that; he never won anything with the national team.”
• [11:29] Wael Goma: “Football is a kind of oxygen for the Egyptian people … Salah is now a symbol for the hopeness ... a very big legend now for us.”
• [12:31] Wilfred Bony: “More than just football. This is life ... how many people are watching that—bigger than the final in World Cup.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:04-02:09 – Alan Kasuja introduces the debate & recaps Jamie Carragher’s controversial comments.
• 02:09-04:30 – Oluwashina Okeleji explains the wider reaction among African football stars.
• 06:59-07:50 – Wilfred Bony and Wael Goma on the emotional and patriotic meaning of AFCON.
• 09:08-10:32 – Direct responses to disrespect and misconceptions about AFCON.
• 11:29-12:21 – Football’s broader cultural meaning, centering Salah’s status in Egypt.

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Tone and Language

The tone is passionate, reverent, and unapologetically proud of the African football tradition. Guests speak with deep emotion and personal conviction about the meaning behind AFCON—often contrasting it to club football and critiquing European or Western perspectives that minimize its significance.

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Summary

This episode of Africa Daily passionately challenges the notion that AFCON is a “lesser” tournament, weaving together personal anecdotes, historical reverence, and the vast emotional impact of the event for millions. Former players and journalists stress the tournament's unparalleled cultural importance and how dismissals of its stature—by pundits like Jamie Carragher or even respected managers—reflect broader global misunderstandings. Ultimately, for Africa, AFCON is much, much more than football—it is identity, hope, and unity.

Transcript

[Alan Kasuja]

The Africa cup of Nations. When I think of it, I think of shock results, passion, heart and soul, the beat of the drums, of the sweet rhythms from the continent, and the biggest names in African football. And one of those stars who's delighted us during the last few competitions is none other than Egypt and Liverpool's Mohamed Salah. But this week, there's been quite a storm on social media about whether Salah will win the coveted Ballon d' or and whether AFCON will help him with that, or whether the competition just doesn't matter in global terms. I kid you not, it's something I didn't see coming. It all started when former Liverpool and England player Jamie Carragher seemed to suggest on Sky Sports that Afcon was not considered considered a major tournament and this might harm Salah's chance of winning the Ballon d'. Or. Now, this led to widespread criticism from around the world. And today on the podcast, I'll be getting the thoughts of two African football.

[Wael Goma]

Legends lacking respect for Muhammad Salah and lacking respect for Egypt and the African footballs.

[Wilfred Bonny]

African is a major tournament, which maybe for him is not, but for all Africans, it's majority after the World cup is African.

[Alan Kasuja]

Some strong words there. But before we get to our main discussion, let's hear a bit more about the reaction from other African football stars who've taken to social media. For that and to get some context into what's happened, I spoke with African football journalist Oluwashina Okeleji.

[Oluwashina Okeleji]

Jimmy Carragher, a former Liverpool player, went on Sky Sports and he was talking generally about Mohamed Salah's chances of winning the Ballon d'.

[Wilfred Bonny]

Or.

[Oluwashina Okeleji]

And, you know, he basically said what stands before him and the chance of winning the Ballon d' or is the fact that he represents Egypt. And, you know, he simply said, you know, playing for Egypt doesn't really have his case in terms of being named the Ballon d' or winner. And, you know, in that same interview, we saw Daniel Storage and Mikael Richards, former England international, you know, stepping in and reminding him that, look, he plays for Egypt and the AFCON is a major tournament, like the Euros and of course the Copa America, but not Jimmy Carragher. He disagreed. And he said, really, he doesn't think the afcon is a major tournament. And even if Mohamed Salah wins the AFCON with Egypt, which he hasn't done, it's still not going to help him to win the Ballon d'. Or because other players like Kylian Mbappe and the rest of them are Playing in the Euros and the Copa Americas, two tournaments that are bigger than the Afcon and that's really sparked outrage across the continent. And we've seen former African players, majority of them who are global names and of course continental kings in their own right. We've had four time Afcon winner Ahmed Hassan, who is the most capped African international with 184 appearances for the Pharaohs, described Karaga's remarks as racist and should never have come from a footballer. Assan, the only player who have won the Afcon best player twice, insists his compatriot, that's Mohamed Salah, is on the right path to win this year's Ballon d' or and make Africa proud not to be left alone. We know Eliaji Diouf, he played with Jamie Caraga and his, his problems with Jamie Caraga and of course Gerard, former Liverpool player, is always in the media. So the two time African footballer of the year and former Senegal and Liverpool forward, a large deal believes Carragher needed to talk about Africa, Afcon and the continent's biggest stars to stay Relev. He said he doesn't even have a name like the likes of George we or Kocher. You know, other notable African players who have left their mark in top leagues across the world. And he said that is disrespectful to Afcon, the pride of Africa. And of course we had a former OT Sunderland and Aston Villa defender, Hamed El Mohamadi, who won the Afcon with Egypt in 2008 and 2010, saying that Jamie Carragher would never have an idea what a major tournament are because he never won one.

[Alan Kasuja]

Oh wow. What a reaction from pretty much everybody. And I come from the time of Rashidi Akini, from the time of Kanu, of Amokachi, of Okocha, you know, from the times of the Bualias, from Zambia, of Mpirusa, these great African icons who played serious African football. And we all stayed up late at night and dodged classes in order to watch those tournaments. It is a big tournament, isn't it? It brings Africa together. It's a major, major trophy for a lot of these players.

[Oluwashina Okeleji]

I mean, over the years we've heard condescending comments, we've had disparaging comments about this tournament. The AFCON is the continental showpiece. Top African players, Benny McCarthy, all of them, they said the AFCON is the be it and do it all in your professional career. You can win Champions League, Champions League, but if you've never won the African cup of nations, no one recognizes you. On the continent of Africa, because that is how big the tournament is. The one in Cameroon and of course the one in Ivory coast that broke all records in the world with the number of, you know, viewership and what have you. I was at the Euros, Alan, and if I compare the football in Africa and the one I saw at the Euros in Germany, it was a. I mean, let me. Let me calm down now. It was a buffet. And of course, only Spain light up the tournament in Germany. And for me, it was as if I should be sleeping in the media zone, because there was absolutely to really watch. So it tells you that in Africa, every goal, be it from the Angolan beat from the Nigerian, always light up the Afghan. And Afghan is a major tournament. Something Jimmy Character will never understand.

[Alan Kasuja]

You're listening to the Africa Daily Podcast from the BBC World Service with me, Alan Kasuja, where I'm discussing the whole social media storm set off by Jamie Carragher about the merits of the African cup of Nations. So let's turn to two former AFCON winners. Wilfred Bonny, who played for Manchester City and won the African cup of nations in 2015 with Ivory coast, and Egypt's Wail Goma, who won AFCON three consecutive times in 2006, 2008 and 2010.

[Wilfred Bonny]

When you're dreaming about playing your country, it's nothing bigger than this. It's nothing bigger than this. You can't have that emotion if you haven't been in African cup, being final, winning or losing, whatever. But be there is something then we can't even explain. It's more than a club, I think it's bigger than dream. Because you can see as a younger, when you go to the street, running after the bus of the national team is all the country involving. Imagine being a hero of the country. It's like you're going to war.

[Alan Kasuja]

Interesting. And for you, Wail, you won it three times, 2006, 2008, 2010. Do you share those sentiments that Wilfred is saying? When was that the same for you, Wael? In Egypt, dreaming about playing for the national team, playing in afcon, the feeling.

[Wael Goma]

Of the national anthem is something exceptional. Whatever I said, and Wilfred said, you have to play and listen to the national anthem to feel this feeling. It's something very, very unique. Imagine that country like Egypt, more than 100 million people support you. All the people want you to win. Everybody want to be close to you.

[Wilfred Bonny]

Even the people who don't like you.

[Wael Goma]

Yes, yes, yes. For the clubs, maybe we divided. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But for the national team, Is something different. Yes.

[Wilfred Bonny]

Oh, everybody's behind you. Can you imagine when you miss something, though, you lose the final or something. The country is like it's dead. It's like no man's land. People are crying. Look what happened in Africa in Ivory course, last Afghan, some people lost their child because Africa lost the game. Just one game. Can you imagine this one? We're never going to get it with the club. You divide it by 20. It depends on the country. It's more what the. The federation are doing. What the FIFA is doing is completely insane. Being there in Afcon, can't imagine how happy, how blessed we are to be there. You know, how many players wanted to be there? How many players wanted to be football players?

[Alan Kasuja]

And so, Wilfred, when you hear Karaga saying that it's not a major tournament, how does that make you feel?

[Wilfred Bonny]

It's disrespectful for Afcon, disrespectful for the African players because maybe he doesn't feel that he never won anything with the national team. You can, you can have the same thing when you play for the club and when you play for the national team.

[Alan Kasuja]

Hold on, hold on. So he doesn't know what he's talking about because he has never won anything with the national team?

[Wilfred Bonny]

Yeah, of course. Did he know something with the national team? No. So imagine Ken. Do you think Ken will say that or you look after a trophy, major tournament. I don't think so. The country behind you after every game. You can see how people are supporting their country. It's really disrespectful for us.

[Alan Kasuja]

What about you, Wail? What do you think about what Wilfred is saying?

[Wael Goma]

I'm totally agree with him. He missed the feeling of winning a big trophy for his country. And if you look to the English Premier League, who is the best player in the history of the Premier League? Didier Drogba. Most of the players who play in England were the best in Africa.

[Wilfred Bonny]

Foreign players.

[Wael Goma]

This is added value for the Premier League. I don't want to talk too much about the Premier League, but. But Africa is rich with its player. I think he is completely underestimate the Egyptian football and the African football and the African player.

[Wilfred Bonny]

Yeah, I think so. I think so. Because it's really. It's not respectful. What he's saying is he even have to video himself and say sorry. Because on top of that, what Salah did for Liverpool, I'm not sure then if this one will be replicated one day.

[Alan Kasuja]

But you say that, Wilfred. But even Jurgen Klopp the former manager of Liverpool referred to Afcon as a little tournament. So why do they continue to disrespect Afcon so much?

[Wilfred Bonny]

Yeah, because I think this is even how maybe the world are running now. Because I think I take example if like we play like many times Egypt won the Afghan. Imagine they have all their players playing in Egypt. Most of the players was playing Egypt. So imagine if like a 90% of the player playing Africa. It's going to be completely different for the European football. This is something that we have to fight for. We have to fight for. We have to change the mentality of the people. Very small compared to maybe Copa America or Euro or whatever is the same major tournament after the World Cup. Afghan. Yeah, probably because you play for your country, nothing is bigger than your country.

[Alan Kasuja]

And wail, tell me how big football is in Egypt at the moment. How big is Salah as a player? How has winning the Afcon three times changed your life?

[Wael Goma]

Football is a kind of oxygen for the Egyptian people. We have some problems in the country and the only thing and the most important thing give happiness to the people is football. Salah is now a symbol for the hopeness and is the one who give the hope to most of the use of the Egyptian people to be imitated. And it's a kind of a very big legend now for us. And everybody in Egypt want to be like Salah in every place, in war, in any position. He said, I like to be like Salah. Salah work on himself and became a legend. And this is what Omar Marmush now is doing with man city. He work on himself and try to be. If you ask him, he said I will, said I, I will be the second Salah.

[Alan Kasuja]

And so this is beyond football. This is about the identity of Egyptians, the identity of Ivorians, the identity of Ugandans. Right? It's more than just football, this Afcon.

[Wilfred Bonny]

Thing, more than just football. This is life. You know how many countries are related just because of the Afghan then people even can drop their guns or whatever in the country where we are fighting. Imagine what I'm talking about the last Afghan, what you bring. How many people are watching that bigger than the final in World Cup. Can you imagine what the sensation you give to people? You cannot, you can never explain this, but if you are not part of this, you can do that and then win that. This is something unbelievable. We are not talking about the club, we are talking about something where you are just there for one month and all the country, as you say, more than 100 players, more than 100 people. I look at you. Everybody want your best. So you know better than me. You can't describe this.

[Wael Goma]

It's the important for me is that my people in the country feel the happiness. And with winning a trophy like the AFCON is the main thing for them.

[Wilfred Bonny]

Play for your country having a chance of playing final and winning that guys wherever you go, they call you champ because you've been there. You sacrifice yourself all the year to wait for that tournament. And then you've done your best in the short period in the country. Many different culture and then you win that. Imagine being the airport. Imagine being on the plane and see the airport. It's full. The airport is full when Liverpool is champion. Introducing Liverpool. People are partying. That's the difference, friends. Being there, feeling that and never been there. We can sit and talk.

[Alan Kasuja]

Many thanks to Wilfred, Bonnie and Wael Goma for taking the time to speak with me. Africa Dell is a BBC World Service production and this episode was produced by Mimi Fawaz. Our editors, Acha Kuchanya Harawa, Simon Peaks. Remember to listen to our sister podcast Focus on Africa. Three stories every afternoon from the continent. And if you have thoughts on today's podcast, you can email us africadailybc.co.uk or you can just find me on X, formerly known as Twitter, where my handle Isuja and that's with two Js. Thank you for listening. Sam.