Why is writer Taban Lo Liyong not ready to stop working?

Summary

Africa Daily – "Why is writer Taban Lo Liyong not ready to stop working?"

Podcast: Africa Daily by BBC World Service
Host: Alan Kasuja
Guest: Taban Lo Liyong (with archival and contemporary conversation, also referenced as "Afoyo Matek Ladit")
Date: February 18, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth and intimate interview with legendary South Sudanese author and scholar Taban Lo Liyong, marking his 93rd birthday. Alan Kasuja explores Lo Liyong's reflections on life, literature, language, and Africa’s past and future. The conversation spans his early years, literary influences, views on African literature and language, memories of friendship, loss, and the role—and risks—of being a writer over decades of political and cultural upheaval.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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Early Life, Family, and Identity

• Childhood memories and migration:

  • Taban Lo Liyong recounts his family's move on foot from Southern Sudan to Uganda as a toddler.
  • His early life was shaped by navigating identity through language:

    "I was torn between two languages, between my own mother's language, which is Kuku, and between the language of the people I lived in, which is Acholi. So I was always trying to find the right word for this and the right word for that." – Taban Lo Liyong [00:03]

• Formative years in Uganda:

  • Uganda is close to his heart, with most formative experiences and friendships rooted there.
  • "Uganda, particularly Uganda... Those ones are gone because they were young people who... the disease that used to take a lot of young people took a lot of them. And when I came back from America, I was told, if ever you don't see any of your friends, don't ask where he is, because then it means they are gone." – Taban Lo Liyong [03:26]

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On Humanity, Writing, and the Role of the Writer

• Reflections on the human condition:

  • Taban wryly critiques human progress, drawing on Christian myth:

    "According to the Christian mythology, God ... created the world in six days. And on the seventh day he went to rest. Unfortunately, he did not resume the repair on Monday. The world has been deteriorating ever since those first six days. So it is up to the writers, up to the moralists, up to the religious leaders to do the repair job." – Taban Lo Liyong [01:02]

• The enduring necessity of critique:

  • He laments a decline in fearless literary and political criticism:

    "The writers of our time who used to criticize the government are no longer there. ... Book lovers have been scared by the government for criticizing them. ... African universities should give professorships of literature in their countries to the best scholars, because now we don't have scholars who are as tough as we were in our own time." – Taban Lo Liyong [11:17]

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Language, Identity, and Literary Innovation

• On language and writing:

  • He identifies more with Acholi language than his mother's Kuku, having also authored works in Acholi:

    "In terms of language, it is actually that I know [Acholi] most more than Kuku language. And that is also the one in which I've written a book." – Taban Lo Liyong [05:14]

• "Democracy of letters":

  • Taban coins a striking literary philosophy:

    "I want the democracy of letters. Let it all be in small letters." – Taban Lo Liyong [09:19, 10:37]

  • By writing a whole book in lowercase, he challenges literary hierarchies and conventions.

• Recognition in South Sudan:

  • Despite much of his history rooted outside, his writings are now gaining acknowledgment among South Sudanese book lovers:

    "My writing has now been recognized by South Sudanese book lovers and so on. Yeah, that has heard a lot." – Taban Lo Liyong [10:37]

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Literary Friendships and the Golden Era

• Encounters with African literary titans:

  • He shares memories of meeting leaders and writers—Jomo Kenyatta, Kwame Nkrumah, Wole Soyinka, Chinua Achebe, and Okot p’Bitek.
  • On Achebe and the Nobel snub:

    "The language of Sinua Achebe is the first language of African writers. He had a way of writing. He made it great African like. And that is what should have been given the Nobel Literature Prize. I think it should have been given to Achebe." – Taban Lo Liyong [06:13]

• The golden age of African writing:

  • He recalls the 1950s and 60s as a vibrant period for writers aligned closely with independence movements:

    "It was a very good time of writers, the days when African independence was coming. And the politicians look at us as ... people who would publicize them. ... Unfortunately, most African writers did not criticize the writings of fellow Africans." – Taban Lo Liyong [08:14]

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Views on Mortality, Memory, and Loss

• Remembering friends lost to HIV/AIDS:

  • The devastation wrought by HIV/AIDS on his generation looms large:

    "Most of the boys with whom I grew up, that sexual disease took some of them, and I wish that did not happen." – Taban Lo Liyong [02:34, 13:09]

• On aging and memory:

  • He contemplates the process of growing old and cherishing memories:

    "There are periods when you remember certain things stage by stage ... where we used to go hunting, where we go swimming, where we used to do this and that and so on. I remember all of them. Unfortunately, I can't share those memories with anybody who was with us." – Taban Lo Liyong [13:09]

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On Courage, Criticism, and Academic Freedom

• Censorship and consequences:
  • He was suspended from the University of Juba in 2020 for criticizing the government:

    "Yeah, I felt that there are certain things that were happening in South Sudan or happening in Sudan which needed criticism." – Taban Lo Liyong [12:42]

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Legacy, Ambitions, and Relentless Creativity

• On being remembered:

  • He wishes to leave a legacy as a writer in Acholi, and for championing the "democracy of letters":

    "I want to be remembered for writing a book in Ajuri and it is doing very well and I feel good about that one. Also. I wish to be remembered for the democracy of letters..." – Taban Lo Liyong [14:06]

• On not retiring:

  • Even at 93, Taban Lo Liyong is unready to stop writing:

    "Yeah, I have two more books to write. Because as far as I'm concerned, at this age, things just come by themselves." – Taban Lo Liyong [14:37]

• His enduring goal:

  "I need to live 110 if my maker permits it. But I want to reach there with my mind on." – Taban Lo Liyong [13:09]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Unfortunately, he did not resume the repair on Monday. The world has been deteriorating ever since those first six days."
  – Taban Lo Liyong critiquing the myth of human perfectibility, [01:02]

• "I want the democracy of letters. Let it all be in small letters."
  – Taban Lo Liyong on literary experimentation and equality, [09:19]

• "I think it should have been given to Achebe."
  – On Chinua Achebe and the Nobel Prize, [06:13]

• "At this age, things just come by themselves."
  – On creative compulsion in old age, [14:37]

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Important Timestamps

• [00:03–01:30] – Taban Lo Liyong’s early journey from Sudan to Uganda and reflections on humanity
• [02:34–03:26] – HIV/AIDS and the loss of a generation
• [05:14–05:57] – Language preferences and writing in Acholi
• [06:13–06:48] – On Chinua Achebe and Nobel recognition
• [08:14–09:01] – The golden age of African writing and its limitations
• [09:19–10:37] – "Democracy of letters" and literary innovation
• [11:17–12:34] – On the challenges for contemporary African writers and universities
• [12:42] – Suspension from University of Juba for government criticism
• [13:09–14:37] – Reflections on aging, memory, legacy, and the urge to keep writing

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Conclusion

This episode offers an evocative portrait of a singular African literary voice—restless, subversive, and endlessly creative into his tenth decade. Taban Lo Liyong reveals the personal and political costs of authorship in Africa, his lifelong wrestling with language and identity, and the ongoing urgency to bear witness and repair the world through words. His energy and humor, as well as his resolve to keep writing, shine throughout, making this a fitting celebration of both his legacy and his unfinished story.

"I have two more books to write. Because as far as I'm concerned, at this age, things just come by themselves." – Taban Lo Liyong [14:37]

Transcript

[Tabanlo Lyong]

My father, he was a good man. He walked on foot with his family from Southern Sudan. I was very small. I was a toddler. I think they carried me most of the way, a distance of almost 200 miles. It was a childhood in which I was torn between two languages, between my own mother's language, which is Kuku, and between the language of the people I lived in, which is Acholi. So I was always trying to find the right word for this and the right word for that.

[Alan Kasuja]

There's the legendary South Sudanese writer Tabanlo Lyong, describing how, as a small child, he was taken by his parents to Uganda, which became his home and where he grew into the man and writer he is. He was speaking to the equally legendary BBC Africa presenter Robin White. Buck in I think human beings have.

[Tabanlo Lyong]

On the whole, not been very humanly to fellow human beings. I keep on saying that according to the Christian mythology, God is supposed to have created the world in six days. And on the seventh day he went to rest. Unfortunately, he did not resume the repair on Monday. The world has been deteriorating ever since those first six days. So it is up to the writers, up to the moralists, up to the religious leaders to do the repair job.

[Alan Kasuja]

But now, 35 years on from that, I've had the privilege of speaking to him myself.

[Afoyo Matek Ladit]

At the age of only 93 years young, I feel happy that I'm meeting with people, my friends, on BBC again after such a long time.

[Alan Kasuja]

Tabando Leong has lived through momentous times in Africa, including the formation of South Sudan as the world's youngest country. In the 1960s, he rubbed shoulders with independent politicians like Jomo Kenyatta and Kwame Nkrumah, and with giants of African literature like Woloshoinka, Chinua Achebe and Gukiwaziongo. In his written works and in many other ways, he has been at the forefront of the debate about the importance of valorizing African languages and cult. But in my conversation with him, he also remembers the arrival of hiv, AIDS and the way it destroyed a generation.

[Afoyo Matek Ladit]

Most of the boys with whom I grew up, that sexual disease took some of them, and I wish that did not happen. Or at least the medicine for that disease was discussed earlier.

[Alan Kasuja]

So at 93 years old, what are the reflections of Tabano Leong? I'm Alan Kasuja and this is Africa Daily now, as we have heard at the very top of this podcast, while Tabando Leong was born in Sudan, his formative years were spent in the northern part of my home country, Uganda. And when I asked him where his thoughts lie. Now he's in his 90s. That's exactly where he took me.

[Afoyo Matek Ladit]

It is a very good memory. The memory that I'm having now is the works of 1945, 46, 47 and so on. These are the things that I can now remember. Wow. I'm now at the age of remembering Bobby in Uganda and Guru High School and so on. Unfortunately, most of my young colleagues in Uganda, particularly Uganda, those ones are gone because they were young people who were just getting awake sexually. And then unfortunately, the disease that used to take a lot of young people took a lot of them. And when I came back from America, I was told, if ever you don't see any of your friends, don't ask where he is, because then it means they are gone. So they are gone now. They are gone. I can't see them, I can't talk to them. It is those days that I now remember my age mates. A few of them are still alive. The other day I saw Wallace Oyenga and I think he would be remembering, like me, things that we used to do together in Makere or in Kenya or wherever it is. Those are the things that I remember now. Fortunately, there are people in South Sudan don't know me. I was never in any school as a student. The things that I wanted to remember were all in Uganda and Nairobi.

[Interviewer]

Right. Uganda is very close to your heart, clearly. Do you speak any of the languages from Uganda?

[Afoyo Matek Ladit]

I'm an Acholi.

[Alan Kasuja]

Oh.

[Afoyo Matek Ladit]

No. In terms of language, it is actually that I know most more than Kuhu language. And that is also the one in which I've written a book.

[Interviewer]

So when you see books by other Acholi speaking writers like Okot Bi Tec, Song of Lawino, Song of Ochol.

[Afoyo Matek Ladit]

Yeah. I even got a copy of Lacta Milk and Near Willow, the first book that was published.

[Interviewer]

You actually speak very good at choli.

[Afoyo Matek Ladit]

I do it better than the other choli.

[Interviewer]

Do you speak it better than your mother tongue?

[Afoyo Matek Ladit]

Yeah, yeah, I do. Kugu language is difficult in a way because we have some letters which are not in a choli.

[Interviewer]

You have had interactions with some amazing, amazing authors in your time. I don't know if I mentioned some of them. We've talked about Walle Soyinka, we've talked about Okot Bitek, We've talked about Chinua. What about Chinua Achebe?

[Afoyo Matek Ladit]

Chinua Achebe. I was very, very angry with the Norwegians for having a war with Chinua Achebe because the language of Sinua Achebe is The first language of African writers. He had a way of writing. He made it great African like. And that is what should have been given the Nobel Literature Prize. I think it should have been given to Achebe.

[Alan Kasuja]

Many would certainly agree. Chinua Achebe is seen by many as the voice of African literature and Things Fall Apart is now studied far and wide. But he never got the Nobel Prize for Literature. But with some saying his work wasn't westernized enough for the European judges. But back to Tabando Leong and his work. One of my favorite is something he wrote about birth control. Sudan was at war with itself and many people are still pushing for birth control. So Tabano Leong wrote, with so many people dead and dying, do you need apostles of birth control? Who will fight the third round? Who will rebuild? This had been the case over 100 years ago. So we increase and decrease. When we are strong, we fight. When we are few, we bide our time. You're listening to the Africa Daily Podcast and a special interview with the veteran Sudanese author Tabanlong to mark his recent 93rd birth. But what I wanted to know is, does he think that the 1950s and 60s were the golden age of African literature? Was he part of a group that included the best authors ever?

[Afoyo Matek Ladit]

It was a very good time of writers, the days when African independence was coming. And the politicians look at us as they are people who. Who would publicize them. And we publicized them and we fought anybody who talked ill of our African politicians. So we did do a lot of things together. Unfortunately, most African writers did not criticize the writings of fellow Africans. We never had publishers who published works on fellow writers. So if you are going to look for me in book criticism, you will not find it.

[Interviewer]

Can I, for the sake of this interview, call you Ladit? Do you like that?

[Afoyo Matek Ladit]

Well, put it like that.

[Interviewer]

Ladit. Ladit. Professor, Humor, animals and imagination are important.

[Alan Kasuja]

Elements in your work.

[Interviewer]

Why?

[Afoyo Matek Ladit]

I don't know why, but I think most of us were chatting with fellow writers, chatting with other people who are writing like them. Especially then after 62, when we said let there be writing in English, yes, but the way of discussion, the way of presentation should be African. It is younger Ugandans and younger Tanzanians, non Kenyans, who are now trying to read me, but also who are finding it difficult now with the new book called After Troy, I said, okay to handle with the English style. So the first thing I'm going to do is I'm going to make it African, and I am also going to write this book in English. All in lowercase. So that is what I did. And everybody said, what is the matter? What are you doing this for? I said, I want the democracy of letters. Let it all be in small letters.

[Interviewer]

Democracy of letters. The democracy of letters. That's interesting.

[Afoyo Matek Ladit]

The democracy of letters. And now my people in South Sudan are recognizing me. My writing has now been recognized by South Sudanese book lovers and so on. Yeah, that has heard a lot.

[Interviewer]

In your introduction to Literary Sudans, an anthology of literature from Sudan and South Sudan, published in 2016, you wrote in this collection, most writers are rebels against the system of fighting a kind of existential war. Is that how you see yourself?

[Afoyo Matek Ladit]

We are here to write our war. I wish we still have them, because the writers of our time who used to criticize the government are no longer there. So we just like saying, okay, now that we have got independence, why do you want to make life difficult for the government? That we finally got? The days when we were trying our little best to wake up the world through our writings are gone. Book lovers have been scared by the government for criticizing them. Now I don't know who are going to set the African American politicians write and so on. And it is the African readers who care very much about books who are hurt by the southerns. That is how I see it. African universities should give professorships of literature in their countries to the best scholars, because now we don't have scholars who are as tough as we were in our own time.

[Interviewer]

And let's Remember that in 2020 you were suspended from your post at the University of Juba for criticizing the government.

[Afoyo Matek Ladit]

Yeah, I felt that there are certain things that were happening in South Sudan or happening in Sudan which needed criticism.

[Interviewer]

And, professor, as I come to the end of our conversation, are you tired? Are you retiring? Are you feeling fatigued? How do you feel? You know, I know that you've said that you want to live until you're 110. Are you on course to achieve that?

[Afoyo Matek Ladit]

I really think not. I need to live 110 if my maker permits it. But I want to reach there with my mind on. I want to remember everything. There are periods when you remember certain things stage by stage, stage by stage, stage by stage. Things. In Uganda, there are places where we used to go hunting, where we go swimming, where we used to do this and that and so on and so forth. I remember all of them. Unfortunately, I can't share those memories with anybody who was with us. Most of the boys with whom I grew up, that sexual disease took some of them. And I wish that did not happen, or at least the medicine for that disease was discussed earlier.

[Interviewer]

And now, with all the body of work that you have, how do you want to be remembered?

[Afoyo Matek Ladit]

I want to be remembered for writing a book in Ajuri and it is doing very well and I feel good about that one. Also. I wish to be remembered for the democracy of letters because I'm saying some of these words in uppercase, whether it is God or chief or president, those ones are written in capital letters.

[Interviewer]

Why do you think, Professor? Do you have another book or two to write?

[Afoyo Matek Ladit]

Yeah, I have two more books to write. Because as far as I'm concerned, at this age, things just come by themselves.

[Interviewer]

It's been an honor, sir, talking to you. Afoyo Matek Ladit. Afoyo Matek, Professor. Thank you.

[Alan Kasuja]

So you heard it there. Two more books to come. My thanks to Tabando Leong for giving me the honor of speaking to him. And thanks to my colleagues James Copno in London and Nicola Mandil in Juba for their help arranging this interview. My producer today was Janet Bol. Our editors are Chakuchanya Harawa and Simon Peeks. And if you've got thoughts about this, you know where to find me. I'm on X my handleasujya and that's with two Js.