Banshees: Herald of Death

Summary

After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal

Episode: Banshees: Herald of Death

Release Date: December 29, 2025
Host: Anthony Delaney & Maddy Pelling
Guest: Siobhan McSweeney

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the history, folklore, and cultural significance of the Banshee—a spectral figure from Irish mythology renowned as the eerie harbinger of death. Historian hosts Anthony Delaney and Maddy Pelling are joined by acclaimed actress Siobhan McSweeney for a rich, humorous, and occasionally personal discussion on the evolution of the banshee legend, its ties to family and place, and the meaning embedded in its fearful wail. Alongside the chilling tale of Charles Bunworth’s death and the banshee’s visitation, the panel reflects on how folklore, mourning, and Irish identity intermingle.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Introduction: The Bunworth Banshee Legend

[01:58–03:51]

• Anthony narrates the 1772 death of Charles Bunworth of Cork, Ireland, a Church of Ireland rector and harpist.
• The circumstances were recorded by Bunworth’s great-great-grandson, Thomas Crofton Croker, in 1825. Croker insists credible witnesses can attest to the story’s authenticity.
• Bunworth’s death was supposedly foretold by the sighting of a haggard old lady beneath a tree—believed to be a banshee—prompting fears within the community.

Quote:

“His passing had been foretold by a haggard old lady sitting under a tree near his house almost a week before he died. There was no doubt in the minds of the people of Pragog that they had been visited by none other than the Banshee herself.”
– Anthony [03:43]

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2. Who (or What) is a Banshee?

[07:27–11:13]

• The banshee is closely associated with Irish folklore; the word means "fairy woman" (ban sí in Gaelic).
• Anthony clarifies its origins within the lore of the Tuatha Dé Danann—pre-Christian fairy folk said to manipulate the land and fate.
• The banshee is recognized as a spirit of death, contrasting the lanan sí (spirit of life).
• The traditional banshee is perceived as a sound before a sight—her haunting wail more feared than any physical manifestation, especially in rural Ireland.

Quote:

“My understanding of it is actually not even as a woman, just as a wailing noise… you almost try to block your ears, so if you don’t hear it, it’s a way of postponing the inevitable.”
– Siobhan McSweeney [09:06]

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3. Family Lineage and the Banshee’s Call

[11:13–13:03]

• Only some Irish families, mostly those with “O’” or “Mac”/“Mc” surnames, are said to be haunted by banshees (e.g., O’Neill, O’Sullivan, McCarthy).
• Both Anthony and Siobhan realize their own surnames (O’Delaney, O’Neill) fall under this storied lineage.
• This association reflects both the importance of genealogy in Irish identity and the way folklore can become a marker of communal belonging.

Quote:

“If you’re a McCarthy, a McGrath, an O’Neill, an O’Sullivan, an O’Riordan, O’Flaherty—essentially, any families that begin with O’s or Mc’s are the people that she follows around.”
– Anthony [11:43]

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4. Folklore, Land, and Cultural Intersections

[13:04–15:46]

• The banshee is embedded in the Irish landscape, echoing themes of inheritance, land, and inter-family fate.
• The discussion broadens to similarities in English folklore, e.g., the Chained Oak of Staffordshire, where curses and omens likewise reflect localized anxieties about theft, power, and belonging.
• The episode touches on collective mythical archetypes (“hag woman,” “old woman”) and their significance across cultures, including their challenge to patriarchal lineage.

Quote:

“There is something about these collective images we have… in most cultures, the idea of the hag woman or the older woman being profoundly mysterious and profoundly… scary and being a direct enemy to patriarchal lines of lineage as well.”
– Siobhan McSweeney [15:26]

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5. Banshee and Mourning Traditions

[18:56–21:23]

• The banshee’s lament (keening) connects to ancient Irish mourning customs. Keening women, or “bean chaointe,” were professional mourners who dramatically lamented the dead—a practice that survived into the early 20th century.
• The performance of the keen is described as guttural, ritualistic, and emotionally raw—distinct from structured song, but sometimes giving way to lament poetry.

Quote:

“They were used up until quite recently… professional mourners who would come and fling themselves on the coffin and, you know, tear out their hair and be absolutely bereft.”
– Siobhan McSweeney [19:34]

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6. Death, Fate, and the Meaning of the Banshee’s Warning

[23:09–25:44]

• The banshee predicts, but does not cause, death—her purpose is to warn, not to sentence.
• Receiving a banshee’s warning allows for a “good death”—a chance to prepare, accept, and frame the transition within one’s community.
• The hosts reflect on class divides in how folklore was approached; in later centuries, the educated or Anglo-Irish classes both romanticized and patronized these traditions.

Quote:

“She foretells of death. It’s up to you then what you do with that… There’s this idea of the good death. And so it’s then whether or not you’re going to fight it and kind of rail against it… or you can choose to have a good death.”
– Anthony [23:09]

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7. Folklore, Identity, and the Irish Revival

[25:44–31:07]

• The 19th-century Gaelic revival was about reclaiming culture from British colonial influence, reasserting a national identity distinct from the occupier.
• The romanticization of the banshee and related folklore was part of a broader effort to rediscover and sometimes invent “authentic” Irishness.
• The discussion highlights tensions over folkloric commodification versus lived tradition.

Quote:

“At what point does a funny, cute, comforting superstition that your grandmother may have said to you… become slightly manipulated and monetized and patronized by different people? When does it become Darby O’Gill and the Little People?”
– Siobhan McSweeney [26:30]

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8. The Banshee in the Story of Charles Bunworth

[31:36–33:58]

• In Croker’s retelling, the banshee’s wailing is witnessed both inside and outside the Bunworth home on the night of his death:
  • A herdsman, Mr. Kavanagh, returns visibly shaken, warning of the banshee’s call and predictions of Bunworth’s demise.
  • The household and local community experience strange moans and keening.
  • As dawn breaks and the keening ceases, Bunworth dies “with quiet resolution.”

Quote:

“As they sat and chatted in the kitchen… Suddenly, they looked gravely at one another as they heard an almost indiscernible female moan from outside the kitchen window… the incessant cat keening started once more. This went on until the first slices of light cut across the darkened horizon. Then the keening stopped and all was still. At that moment… Charles Bunworth succumbed to his illness and departed this world with quiet resolution.”
– Anthony [31:36–33:57]

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9. Personal Reflections—Modern Fears and Living Folklore

[39:21–42:55]

• Siobhan and Anthony reflect on childhood encounters with Irish supernatural stories—fearful of banshees, saying Hail Marys to ward off apparitions, and the blurred line between belief, ritual, and storytelling.
• The hosts note how Irish superstitions and folklore have simultaneously been sources of pride and markers for British patronization and infantilization.
• There’s a universal recognition of storytelling as both a communal bonding mechanism and a mutable aspect of heritage.

Quote:

“What we’re not wary of is our storytelling and our narrative building and our community building through story and our inheritance through story and narrative. And I think maybe this is a decent place to wrap it up, but I think that’s probably where the Banshee lives.”
– Anthony [42:58]

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10. The Banshee’s Enduring Legacy

[44:16–44:28]

• The banshee, both image and sound, travels with the Irish diaspora and maintains powerful resonance in Irish identity.
• American folklore adopted the banshee story among Irish immigrant communities, reflecting how folklore migrates and adapts.

Quote:

“She’s one that follows Irish people around the world, right?... She goes with them very much in America. Lots of stories of her following them to America. So, you know, we like to travel.”
– Christine & Siobhan [44:24–44:28]

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Notable Memorable Moments & Quotes

• “My understanding of it is actually not even as a woman, just as a wailing noise”—Siobhan McSweeney [09:06]
• “If you’re a McCarthy… or O’Sullivan, an O’Riordan, O’Flaherty—essentially, any families that begin with O’s or Mc’s are the people that she follows around”—Anthony [11:43]
• “There is something about these collective images we have… the idea of the hag woman or the older woman being profoundly mysterious and profoundly… scary”—Siobhan McSweeney [15:26]
• “The banshee predicts, but does not cause, death—her purpose is to warn, not to sentence”—Anthony [23:09]
• “At what point does a comforting superstition… become manipulated and monetized and patronized?“—Siobhan McSweeney [26:30]
• “She’s one that follows Irish people around the world, right?... She goes with them very much in America.”—Christine & Siobhan [44:24–44:28]

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Important Timestamps

• 01:58 – Opening of the Bunworth banshee legend
• 07:33 – Origins and meaning of ‘banshee’
• 11:42 – Families associated with banshee visitations
• 13:36 – The banshee and cultural myths tied to place
• 18:56 – Mourning, keening, and the Irish death tradition
• 23:09 – The banshee’s warning and the “good death”
• 25:44 – The folk revival and national identity
• 31:36 – Detailed narration of the keening at Bunworth’s death
• 39:21 – Personal childhood experiences of Irish supernatural fear
• 42:55 – The role of storytelling and folklore in sustaining identity
• 44:24 – The banshee traveling with the Irish diaspora

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Conclusion

The episode deftly blends historical investigation, folklore analysis, and personal anecdotes to reveal the banshee’s role in expressing Irish anxieties about death, belonging, and cultural identity. Through laughter, lived experience, and poignant reflection, the panel underscores how myth and memory interact—transforming the banshee from a terrifying omen to a powerful emblem of community and inherited story.

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For more “After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal,” subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and join Anthony, Maddy, and their guests every Monday and Thursday for all things eerie from history’s shadowy corners.

Transcript

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[Christine]

Hi there, it's Maddie. I'm just jumping in to let you know that this episode contains some sensitive content. So if that's not for you, check out our back catalogue of amazing episodes. And if you're sticking with us, enjoy.

[Anthony]

Cork, Ireland 14th September 1772 Charles Bunworth is dead. Bunworth was a beloved Church of Ireland rector and harpist who had long helped join religious divides in the town of Breaug and beyond. He was affectionately referred to as the Minister, a fluent Irish speaker and the descendant of the Irish patriot John Philpot Curran. In life, Bunworth had been well versed in the traditions and folklore of Ireland. His death, however, had not come as a surprise to some. The supposed circumstances surrounding Bunworth's death were documented by his great great grandson, Thomas Crofter Croker in Fairy Legends and Traditions of the south of Ireland in 1825. In it, Crofton Croker assures his readers that, quote, there are still living credible witnesses who can declare the authenticity of what follows and who can be produced to attest most, if not all, of the following particulars. But what were those particulars? What was so notable about Bunworth's death? Well, according to his great, great grandson, his passing had been foretold by a haggard old lady sitting under a tree near his house almost a week before he died. There was no doubt in the minds of the people of Pragog that they had been visited by none other than the Banshee herself.

[Christine]

Welcome to After Myths, Misdeeds and the Paranormal. We have a really incredible episode today and I'm going to let Anthony introduce our guest because she is a very good friend of his. Anthony.

[Anthony]

Yes. We have a special guest in the studio today, an expert in all things history, and that is the one and only Siobhan McSweeney. And I could listen. I could wax lyrical about Siobhan's recent BAFTA win or her hosting credentials on Great Pottery Throwdown or her iconic role as Sister Michael on Derry Girl. But to me, Siobhan McSweeney will always be the actress who played my oldest sister in a play that we do not talk about anymore. About 10 or so years ago, probably more than 10 years now, but since then we've entertained each other with day trips to period properties and gone on country walks and talked the hind legs of each other and put the world to rights several times over copious glasses of champagne. She is listeners, part of the family and we are delighted to welcome her to After Dark today. Welcome, Siobhan.

[Christine]

Yay. Hello.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Hello. You know, lovely to be here in. In person. When we tried to do this via Zoom.

[Anthony]

Yes.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

It was a lot easier to listen to that, to that introduction. Now I've just. I'm blushing and feeling very awkward.

[Anthony]

You say that, but actually that was all contrived by you, so you got to hear it twice.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Yeah, I know.

[Anthony]

It's just like there was. There were some nice things there. I might like to hear those again.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

We're also recording this several times so that.

[Anthony]

Oh, oh, whoop.

[Christine]

Take it from the top.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Let's go from the introduction again.

[Anthony]

Do that one.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Yeah.

[Anthony]

What did you say about me? And was it about the BAFTA when you were most impressed or least impressed?

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Well, actually, the bit I was least impressed with was the older sister.

[Anthony]

You were my older sister.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Only in matters of age.

[Anthony]

Well, that's how we count these things. It's kind of one of the key elements to how that Panned out. But we don't. Again, we don't talk about it. We don't talk about it. We don't. We had a. Maddie. We had a. It was my first ever play after drama school. We went to the same drama school, but not the same time, because Siobhan's older than I am.

[Christine]

No, no.

[Anthony]

Yeah. It was funny, wasn't it? It was.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

No, no, no, no. There was nothing funny about it. It was a very mediocre fringe show, which I think is sort of rite of passage for. For every struggling actor at the start of their career. Or.

[Anthony]

Look at you now. BAFTAs galore. I can't move for the BAFTAs in.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

This room right now. I'm sorry for bringing it with me.

[Anthony]

Yeah, it's in your bag as well. So in the opening section of the narrative, we have Bunworth dying in 1772. So in Ireland, we have a monarch who is the British monarch on the throne. It's George iii. We are seeing a lot of unrest around Europe and in America, which will inevitably lead to revolutions. There. There is a rising of the United Irishman in Ireland in 1798, which ultimately fails. But this is the kind of world in which Bunworth has been living, in which he dies and in which then goes on to inform Ireland in the 19th century, which sees the beginning of the Gaelic revival. There are kind of bog bodies being discovered and being dug up, and it's. There's this kind of reconnection to what Irishness means in the context of the British Empire. So the banshee fits into these kind of stories in its own unique way. And, Mari, I'm just wondering, like, what do you know about banshees from your perspective, having come from outside Ireland?

[Christine]

To me, a banshee is a little bit like a mermaid, maybe. I have been reliably informed that is not the case and that they are not necessarily coastal. I also know that they're, I want to say, specifically an Irish thing. It's something I'm guessing the pair of you grew up with in a way that I didn't in England.

[Anthony]

What do you think, Siobhan?

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Well, the way. I mean, I, I. It's a really good question whether it's uniquely Irish. Banshee, basically, you know, is Gaelic for a fairy woman. Ban woman. She of the. Of the fairies. So I don't know, maybe it's in Scotland as well.

[Anthony]

Yeah. You know, I think it is kind of uniquely Irish and that it's linked the. Directly to the families. Well, it's linked directly to the families. And we'll get to that in just a second. But to the. It's the Tour de Danan. And if you don't know what the Tour de Danan is, it's basically this kind of pre Christian fairy folk that surreptitiously ruled Ireland. It was almost kind of folkloric and religious in its own sense. And it was this kind of army of fairy people, basically, who were manipulating the climate, who were manipulating all different types of things. And the banshee comes from that kind of that mythology. And there was a lanan sheerda who was the spirit of life. And then the bansheeda, or the banshee was the spirit of death. And so there is this death associated. So I do think it's actually even more specific than Celticism. I think it is Irish in that because it's linked so specifically to the tua.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

I mean, my understanding of it is actually not even as a woman, just as a wailing noise.

[Christine]

So the sound is really important.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Yeah, really, really important.

[Christine]

So you hear her before you hear. You hear her. Okay, okay.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

It's actually, I think, like, you almost try to block your ears, so if you don't hear it, it's a way.

[Anthony]

Of postponing the inevitable. I did that as a child.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Did you?

[Anthony]

Yeah. Because I was on the border of sanity probably for 98% of my childhood.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

On the border of Kilkenny, I thought.

[Anthony]

On the border of Kilkenny and Leisha. But I do remember being in my bed with the bed clothes pulled up with the fingers and the ears and the. Can anyone say anxiety? But honestly, I do remember going, no, we're not hearing this. I don't care what's going on. We're not hearing it because she was just around, like. Probably helps if you've got a bit of an imagination. But, like, she seemed to be quite present.

[Christine]

She did.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

And I think perhaps uniquely rural. Yeah, certainly, yeah. With the wind maybe coming in through drafts or whatever. Yeah. The fact that she would be a woman or a fairy woman, it was only ever the voice that struck terror, I think.

[Anthony]

And that's interesting. Right, because that's an our generation thing, I think, because in like the 19th century, it was very much a visual as well.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Right.

[Anthony]

So it was a particular type of woman. So the long. And my great grandmother was alive when I was born. I remember seeing her and I just want to say. And I remember seeing our God love her. Now that there's another Irish person in the room, I'm suddenly got into all the colloquialisms But I remember seeing her and she had long silver hair down to beneath her bum, Right. And I remember going, I am not going near that woman.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Because she's obviously.

[Christine]

This is clearly.

[Anthony]

This is a warning of death. And she did die eventually. God love her. But that's neither here.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Did you say your great great?

[Anthony]

No, my one great. Okay, maybe I did say great great. But she was my great grand. My.

[Christine]

She's fantastic. And your great grandmother?

[Siobhan McSweeney]

She was a great grandmother.

[Anthony]

She was a great grandmother.

[Christine]

Okay, so the Banshee is part of this fairy, alternate world that has sort of tangible effects on real life.

[Anthony]

I like to say that alternate world because for the people who believe the two, it wasn't alternate. It was very much. It was very much intertwined with how they experienced everyday life. So it was. It was kind of far more present than we would even think of religion as being now. Or people who kind of follow certain religious beliefs. But we were talking about, like, listening out first. But actually, you'd be wasting your time slightly, because the legend went that only certain families could hear her.

[Christine]

Okay, so talk to me about that.

[Anthony]

Well, I'll list you some of the families and you can see if you recognise any of these names. And if you're listening in with any of these surnames, try not to get too freaked out. But if you're a McCarthy, a McGrath, an O', Neill, an O'Reilly, an O', Sullivan, an O', Riordan, O', Flahertys, essentially, any families that begin with O's or MC's are the people that she follows around. And during the research for this, I found out that the old iteration of my name was O. Delaney.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Oh, really?

[Anthony]

Yeah. Well, O. Dufloine in Irish. No, O'Reilly. And because I initially went looking for you, I was like, I betcha she's after Siobhan somehow. And the Macs are in there.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

The max. Yeah, but. And o'. Neill's. That's my. My. My mother's line. So. Yeah, and McCarthy and O', Sullivan, I think.

[Anthony]

Yeah, but what does that say about where you're from, though?

[Siobhan McSweeney]

I think it says that there wasn't.

[Anthony]

A large enough gene pool, a large.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Enough gene pool in West Cork for several hundred years.

[Anthony]

But it's interesting, right, because this story is from Cork.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Yeah.

[Anthony]

And you're from Cork. And so there's obviously something about that west coast of Ireland, for anyone who doesn't know where. Cor, it's on the west coast. Beautiful place.

[Christine]

Beautiful.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Very, very large. Very large county. Lots of kingships. Handed out. Yes, early on as sort of rewards for things. So you have a lot of suffering. You know, the o', Neills, even the Maxwinis all came down from the north and sort of here have this big.

[Anthony]

Chieftain land as well.

[Christine]

So not only the identities of families are so important, but the fate of what's happening to them. Right. And if they are doomed to die, in some way, the Banshee's altering the fate of the land, of the people in charge, that she's kind of tied to the story of the place and the people, in a way.

[Anthony]

Definitely tied to the story of the place, I think, in that talking about that kind of fairy integrated into the landscape thing.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Do you know this? I mean, you know, thank God for the edit button. We'll be able to edit this if we need to. But, Maddy, we were talking about Stoke there and you said that that's where you come from. And I'm staying there at the moment while I'm filming. Where I'm filming is in Battery Dordam, but where I'm staying is in a village called Oakmoor, which has the Oak. The Chained Oak?

[Christine]

Yes, yes, the famous Chained Oak that people might know from Alton Towers, actually.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Very close to Alton Towers, but. Yeah, yeah, but it's really reminding me. It feels very pertinent to what we're talking about, actually. But trying to withhold the curse or sort of defend against the Banshee.

[Christine]

Yeah, I think so. And I think, you know, we're talking about the Banshee being specifically Irish. But of course, England has its own folkloric traditions and also more traditions that are more universal. And I think there's something about the history of place and the landscape and a kind of wildness that I guess brings out an anxiety in people, a feeling of unease, maybe. And it's exactly the same. So for anyone who doesn't know, in Staffordshire, there's this really ancient huge oak tree that has, I think, already decades, if not centuries old chains holding some of the branches in place. And there's a folklore story of the family who owned the land. I think they deny help to an old woman on the road and she says, when the branches fall from the tree, members of your family will die. And that starts to happen. And so the guy who owns the tree starts to chain it up. And I think there's so much there about. Yeah, sort of family preservation of land, I think. Absolutely.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

And of status and of title and.

[Anthony]

Old women foretelling death.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Anthony]

Whatever kind of border they're Supposed to be inhabiting of. Between life and death. They're able to kind of bring that forth. There's kind of a magic in it almost, that they're able to.

[Christine]

Yeah, totally.

[Anthony]

Kind of totally inhabit.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Yeah, well, it's sort of that Jungian archetype, isn't it?

[Christine]

The.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

The sort of.

[Anthony]

She's off now.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Anthony]

You know.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

No, but there is something about these. These collective images we have in.

[Christine]

In.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

In most cultures where, like the idea of. Of the hag woman or the older woman, that being profoundly mysterious and profoundly.

[Christine]

Scary and being a direct enemy to patriarchal lines of lineage as well. She's a threat to your familial status, I guess.

[Anthony]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Christine]

So let's get to Bunworth specifically. Anthony, in your narrative, you talk about Charles Bunworth, who dies in 1772. So why is the Banshee associated with him specifically? And why is it sort of after he's died that this story is attached to him?

[Anthony]

I think the answer for that might lie in fiction, really. What you'll find in kind of later 19th century Ireland when this story starts to gain momentum. It was written initially in the early 19th century, but the momentum gathers in the later 19th century. There is this kind of Gaelic revival happening in Ireland and often with kind of middle and upper classes even, that would have been more associated with land holding and land ownership. But what they're trying to do. And it's interesting because you've just spoken about this in terms of the banshee and other folklore things, but it's connecting back to the land.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Yeah.

[Anthony]

And they're trying to reconnect, going, actually, whose land is this?

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Yeah.

[Anthony]

What is the culture of this country? And so there's this kind of revival in 19th century.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

A revival and reinvention.

[Anthony]

100 reinvention. Yeah. It's not. It's not a real reflection of what it was.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

No, no, no. It's quite. It's quite. Almost this area, you know, that sort of like Nazi past as well. You know, that comely maidens going around in their beautiful linens and, you know, Yates doing his poetry at the. At the crossroads.

[Anthony]

Yeah. It wasn't a very peasant Ireland, which most of Ireland was. It was actually a very kind of Anglo Ireland. Not exclusively, but certainly it was. It was nationalism, but in a very.

[Christine]

Romanticized sort of metropolitan vision of the landscape and the people.

[Anthony]

Very bourgeois, kind of very bush.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Very touristy. Yeah.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Anthony]

But it has endured slightly. I think there's. There's kind of an idea behind that. And it was was kind of trying to extricate Ireland from that kind of imperial influence. But potentially the next part of our story can tell us a little bit more. Now. A week before Bunworth passed his herdsman, a Mr. Kavanagh had been sent to the nearby town of Mallow to collect an elixir that might benefit Bunworth's health. It was 11pm before he returned, as it was nearly a seven hour round trip on Thursday foot. When he reached the house. Despite the hour, a troubled Mr. Kavanagh gave the medicine to the Reverend Bunworth's daughter. Without warning, he grabbed her by the arm and in floods of tears blurted out the master. Miss. He is going from us. Miss Bunworth was taken aback and assumed the herdsman had been drinking, but he insisted. Ms. He is going from us. Surely we will lose him. The master. We will lose him. The banshee has come for him, Miss. And tis not I alone who have hurt her. Kavanagh recounted how an old woman with long silver hair and a cloak as black as night had followed him part of the way home. As she stalked him, she keened and screeched and even called Charles Bunworth by name. Ms. Bunworth dismissed Kavanagh's hysterics as superstition. Kavanagh, however, was in no doubt about what would follow.

[Christine]

The banshee. Here. Anthony is associated with a kind of lament that the sound that she makes is the indication that someone's going to die. Is there a connection maybe with mourning more generally and the traditions in Ireland around death that the banshee is maybe part of that history?

[Anthony]

Yeah, absolutely. I think the idea of keening or a keening woman goes back to the 8th century in Ireland, I believe. Siobhan, how would you describe a keening woman or a kind toruch, I think is, is the Irish. How would you, how would you describe a sound?

[Siobhan McSweeney]

It's. They're professional mourners. I think they were used up until quite recently. You'd have professional mourners who would come and fling themselves on the coffin and, you know, tear out their hair and, and, and be absolutely bereft.

[Anthony]

Bit of drama.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

We love a bit of drama. There's also like a genre of poetry which is called the Queen, which is a lament and it became very much a. It's a very important style of poetry and the famous one is Queena Artillery. And it's very much a. It's almost a threat as well. You know, you killed my husband. This is what's going to happen next. And oh, how I loved him kind of thing. So. Yeah, the keen.

[Anthony]

Have you ever heard one? I haven't not. And not in real. I've never been at a funeral where I've heard a keen.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

No, I haven't. No.

[Anthony]

I think by the kind of middle of the 20th century it had gone more or less, but I think it was still happening in certain little pockets in. In like Gwaletucked areas, which are mostly Irish speaking areas in Ireland. But I've never actually heard it. So keening means crying, right?

[Christine]

Like that's.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

So it's wailing.

[Anthony]

It's a wailing.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

It's a wailing.

[Anthony]

No words necessarily, no, just.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Just sort of, you know, Shannon singing as well would have a lot of qu in it and a lot of wailing in it.

[Anthony]

Long sustained note Yeah, I was gonna say.

[Christine]

Is there like a form to it? Is there a. It's obviously performative, but is there?

[Siobhan McSweeney]

I don't know.

[Anthony]

I don't know.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

I don't know.

[Anthony]

I think probably my instinct tells me that the women who did it knew the form. That seems to me would be. Probably would be likely.

[Christine]

Would you say it's part of a sort of oral tradition then that's handed down? It's not necessarily something that's formally taught that it's. It's picked up in. In sort of rural communities maybe. Yeah.

[Anthony]

It's certainly not like taught in schools or anything, but the tradition of women handing down the tradition amongst themselves and amongst family members, that seems to ring true when it comes to that. But in terms of like, is it a composed thing that people are singing over? Like it's not. It's a cry, it's a kind of a. It's a more ritual. It's more kind of guttural than that, isn't it? Just to kind of. But. But as Siobhan said, there is, there is laments and there is kind of elements of the. The queen to. That has words as well. Like it can translate into song, but they're not what the banshee is associated with. That. That's taking that to another kind of. Ever find yourself bored or trying to kill time? We have finally found a solution for you.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

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[Siobhan McSweeney]

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[Christine]

My next question really is about the Banshees approach to death. Does she approach different deaths differently because.

[Anthony]

She foretells of death? It's up to you then what you do with that. So, you know, there's this idea of the good death.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Anthony]

And so it's then whether or not you're going to fight it and kind of rail against it. Which by the way, the banshee has said this is going to happen. So it's inevitable. It is going to happen.

[Christine]

So you can't outsmart her, you can't escape her?

[Anthony]

I don't think so. As far as I'm aware, it will follow you.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Anthony]

Yeah. Or you can choose to have a good death. It can kind of soften the blow. You can prepare. I mean, here Bunworth is being given the.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

The heads up.

[Anthony]

The heads up if they, if they decide to listen to it. Which, you know, the daughter is saying she's not really going to, but I also think because we were talking about the kind of Gaelic revival in the 19th century earlier. But there's something here where it's the servant who comes back, the Irish man of the land, not the Church of Ireland family. He comes back and he says, I have heard the banshee and it's relating to your family but you haven't heard it. And then the daughter is apparently very doubtful. Do you think there's like. Does that seem to ring true in terms of what you know of the banshee as we're kind of growing up in Ireland?

[Siobhan McSweeney]

I don't know. But like now I'm thinking of. If you had seen me this morning, I think anybody would have thought that I was a banshee wailing and, and wandering around.

[Anthony]

Did you lose your phone again?

[Siobhan McSweeney]

But you know, you could, you could. You know, I sort of love the idea that any woman of a certain age wandering the roads of the countryside and just sort of going, oh God, it's the man shape. Run, run.

[Christine]

Or like spreading panic across the Somebody.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Up for a bit of devilment. You know what, there's somebody coming down the road there now. Here, here, look at. Hold my pint, Mikey.

[Anthony]

That must have happened. That must have happened. It's also. It feeds into that thing of the Irish peasant as something more rudimentary that is clicking into that fairy folklore thing. Whereas the kind of the civilized anglicizing.

[Christine]

Thing is Making this folkloric tradition palatable in a way that it maybe wouldn't have been 100 years earlier in the sort of drawing rooms of cities. You know, it's dressing it up and making it, yeah. Seem kind of civilized or, like, narrativizing it in some way. It's turning into a story rather than taking it seriously. I think in this. In this particular case, yeah.

[Anthony]

There's also something about kind of infantilization of the Irish peasantry as well, where it's like, oh, look, them, they're believing in ghosts and fairies and stuff. And it's. Yeah, I don't think that's the. That's not what they're trying to do, but it's in there nonetheless.

[Christine]

The threat of the banshee isn't taken that seriously. It's the kind of charming relic of.

[Anthony]

Something bearing in mind this was written by the descendant of the Bunworths. So it's written from that kind of position, that middling, upper middling class position in Ireland at the time. But it is also interesting, I think, if you think about what was to come in Ireland in terms of the Christianization. Well, it was already Christianized, but, like, the way Catholicism was solidified as a way to run the country, essentially by the beginning of the 20th century, that this kind of was. That Gaelic revival was harking back to something, even though it was romanticized, as you said, Siobhan, it was like, still harking back to something that was a little bit more Irish in that sense, or Celtic or, like, folkloric or something. Didn't last, obviously, because of the Catholic Church. But it's interesting that they were trying to have that conversation potentially around that time.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

At what point does a funny, cute, comforting superstition that your grandmother may have said to you when you were at her knee and feeling very cozy and loved and warm, when does that become slightly manipulated and monetized and patronized by different people? Do you know what I mean? And I think that's. What. When does it become Darby o' Gill and the Little People?

[Anthony]

Or the play readers?

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Or the play.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

You know, when. When does it. When does.

[Anthony]

When is Irishness commodified?

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Commodified and used against the Irish?

[Christine]

And you can see that starting to happen in this case.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

I don't know, but it's a very. You not only have the event supposedly happening when. 17.

[Anthony]

1772.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

1772. But this has been recalled how many generations?

[Anthony]

Two generations later?

[Siobhan McSweeney]

So we have two things going on.

[Anthony]

Yeah, yeah.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

The event that has happened. But being filtered through several generations after that and being listened to now with all the stuff that has happened subsequently.

[Anthony]

I don't know there's bearing in mind. And that's a really good point because since the supposed. Well, not that he did die in 1772. So since that we have 1798, we have the revolutions throughout Europe. We have. Things are beginning to shift, empires are beginning to fall. Monarchs are beginning to make way for more kind of palatable republican places in. In France. And Ireland was trying to do that too.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Yeah.

[Anthony]

And failed.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Yeah.

[Anthony]

So that's the context of the middle piece of that story where Bunworth actually dies and then his great, great grandson.

[Christine]

Yeah. And the question of what Ireland will look like in the future is sort of absolutely paramount in this time. That it's looking to the past, but also in a really serious way starting to consider what Ireland looks like under Britain, without Britain on the world stage.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

No, for sure. I think that's really, really interesting because I think with. And I obviously only talk about the public independence there, but when we got rid of the Brits, you know, we didn't have, as far as I'm aware, something to take its place. We left a vacuum.

[Anthony]

Well, and we know what filled us, the church.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

And the church filled us. But it was like my favorite. My favorite sort of story about the New Republic and the pragmatism and hope of the New Republic is just. It delights me. For some strange reason. I went to school in Cork City and up Patrick's Hill there was. I don't know if it's still there, but there was a post box like you'd have here. Literally, like you'd have here a Victor, you know, rv, but painted green. So when the infrastructure of the. With the civil service left, the architecture was still there. Just painted it green.

[Anthony]

Flap a bit of green on that there now.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Beautiful. You know, literally greenwashing. But also there's something very pragmatic and very sort of. I find it. I'm like, that's a sensible decision, you.

[Anthony]

Know, that they didn't have any money. But yes, like, I get it.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

No, for sure. But it also speaks to me of like, you know, there's quite a few stories of like, when we got rid of the Brits, we didn't know what to do.

[Christine]

Yeah. So you sort of took over the infrastructure of that. The colonial power had left completely behind.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

New colonial civil service bureaucracy. So what do you do when that goes? You don't. You sort of go, well, what were we before them then?

[Christine]

Yeah. And what position does the traditional folklore of the land, what position does that hold when it's been pushed to the periphery in that structure, getting it back and interweaving it into the culture again.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Absolutely. It becomes not only an act of rebellion, an act of defiance, it becomes a sort of an education as well. It's like, oh, this isn't. Must be who we are then, because it's not them.

[Anthony]

Yeah.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

By virtue of it not being English, it must be Irish kind of thing. And there's sort of, then this. This uneasy, I think, relationship with, like, with folklore and with mythology.

[Anthony]

Well, I don't think it lasted. You know, now that you're saying that, like, once the Catholic Church really did come in, we lost it again slightly. It was just another. Because it didn't fit in with Catholicism. It didn't fit in with.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Well, it didn't fit into the sort of patriarchal structure of Catholicism, which is all a Catholicism. I agree, but what I mean is, like, it was specifically. It was specifically to sort of root out women wandering the streets.

[Anthony]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Women, yeah, yeah.

[Christine]

Which famously, the Catholic Church does not enjoy.

[Anthony]

No, no, no. Shall we see what happens in the last six months?

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Cannot wait. Go on. There now.

[Anthony]

As the week progressed, despite Ms. Bunworth's hopes, her father's health deteriorated. Bunworth had asked to be moved to the parlour downstairs, which would apparently make it easier for his two daughters to care for him. It would also give him better views across the countryside where he had grown up. Word had spread through the community that Kavanagh had claimed to have had an encounter with the banshee, which foretold Bunworth's death. Despite this, they visited the Bunworths, as was customary when a member of the family was at death door, and stayed with them long into each night. On the final night, the locals gathered once more as they sat and chatted in the kitchen, reminiscing about the minister's life as he prepared to leave it. Suddenly, they looked gravely at one another as they heard an almost indiscernible female moan from outside the kitchen window. An elderly woman attending Monmouth in the parlour came rushing in to the other locals and. And confirmed that she too had heard grew louder. Then the old lady was convinced the banshee was close. Two men ran outside to catch what they presumed was a very human culprit in the act. After circling the grounds, they found the night as still as the coffin and returned to the house. As they stood in the doorway, the local people looked back at them, ashen, nothing to be found, the men reported all quiet outside. It was a great surprise to them then when the folk gathered inside told them that rather than silence that they had encountered outside, they had endured ever more dramatic moaning, keening, screeching and banging inside the house. Unsure what to make of these conflicting stories, the two men closed the door behind them and re entered the kitchen. As the door clicked on the latch, the incessant cat keening started once more. This went on until the first slices of light cut across the darkened horizon. Then the keening stopped and all was still. At that moment, his great great grandson tells us, Charles Bunworth succumbed to his illness and departed this world with quiet resolution.

[Russell]

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[Anthony]

Hey everyone.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

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[Russell]

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[Anthony]

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[Siobhan McSweeney]

What an awful way to go.

[Anthony]

Which one?

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Like roaring and wailing and keening and screeching.

[Anthony]

Not ideal. Like.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

No, it's a really fearful.

[Anthony]

Well, now he wasn't roaring and wailing and.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

No, the Banshee. But the idea of the Banshee just seems. It seems so. You know, for a nation that purports to be so good with death and knows how to grieve and knows how to.

[Christine]

Yeah, so that's what really struck me at the end of the story is in this country, in England, we have a really sanitized relationship with death, actually. And you know, people don't often die at home. And I know that that is still quite different in Ireland generally. And to me, the Banshee, the fact that she's Outside the house. Then she's inside the house. She's upsetting the peace and the quiet and the calm and sort of the sacredness of this moment of someone dying. There is a difficulty, I think, in having death in the house. It's maybe more common in what is in the context of the story of the late 18th century being written about in the 19th century. But it's not an easy thing. It's uneasy. And the banshee maybe sort of represents some of that uneasiness. She's sort of violating the home and this peaceful time.

[Anthony]

It's interesting, having been in a house where somebody is due to die. It very much feels like that, actually. Without the screaming. Oh, sometimes there can be a bit of screaming.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

It can be screaming and keening and whatever. Somebody could be upset. Naturally.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

I just sort of think that there's something so punitive about it and something so you did wrong. And this is the price. You've tried to avoid the inevitable price, which is death. And that doesn't seem to be involved with this story at all. I mean, his only crime, as far as I can figure out in 17 blah de blah, is that he happens to be a minister. So therefore.

[Anthony]

But you see, this is the thing. I don't think this particular one is. Is this particular story, I mean, is a vengeful. Yeah. Because we grow up with the going. You want to avoid that.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Yeah, you want to avoid it. It's like, you know, be good or do, you know, all these sorts of things. It's more punitive and like the idea of. I mean, you know, I'm going to hark and I guess that there are no such things as banshees, but the idea of, you know, minding your father in the front room as he looks out.

[Anthony]

Yeah.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

And through his very, very final couple of hours and having this wailing and horribleness and screeching. I'm not sure what this story is then, apart from. Oh, I have an example from my family history. Lord. That we had a banshee.

[Anthony]

Do you know what my instinct on that is? The great, great grandson is claiming Irishness.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Ah.

[Anthony]

I think that's all it is in that they come to us. The banshee comes to us. And despite our kind of Anglo sax.

[Christine]

Her appearance authenticates his Irishness. Don't you think, as well, though, there's such a tension between him being a minister, that he's a man of the church, and that he's. And he's coming up against a figure from a completely. Well, a supposedly completely different belief system. They are obviously interlinked in complicated ways, but that there's a kind of attention there, a sort of contrast. Maybe.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Maybe. Maybe, yeah. Like the idea of that particular faith not being or value system or faith system not being Irish, maybe. Not being.

[Christine]

Yeah. And that she's the sort of the epitome of Irishness in that way.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Or is it that this brilliant man is dying? This brilliant man with lovely Irish spoken with great.

[Anthony]

He was a harpist as well.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

And a harpist, like, already elevated historically bardic tradition, et cetera. That his demise could only bring the banshee who would wail and keen and weep for this great man's passing.

[Anthony]

Yes.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

That it's actually.

[Anthony]

He's earned it.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

He's earned. Yeah. That there's some sort of preemptive heralding towards bringing him to death.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah.

[Anthony]

Love that.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Love that. We'll have that.

[Anthony]

Love that for him.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Love that for him.

[Anthony]

No, but it is honestly good for him. Come here to me. Did you. I won't ask you, Maddie, because I don't think you this will have happened to you, but had you ever any kind of family encounter y personal banshee story type things when you were growing up or.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

No, no, but think that I would hear her and especially around Halloween, you.

[Anthony]

Would think that there was a threat that that was gonna happen completely.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

And there would be the exact same. Like, I'd be trying to put my fingers in my ears for fear.

[Anthony]

See, I'm not. I wasn't losing the run of myself.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Well, I think. I think growing up in Ireland in the 80s, we were all losing the run of ourselves. I also used to go down the corridor of the house if I was the last one going to bed, and I would be muttering Hail Marys under my breath.

[Anthony]

Oh, my God.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

For fear the Virgin Mary would come as an apparition. I'd be like, please, Virgin Mary, do not come to me tonight.

[Anthony]

I used to say that about dead people. I'd be like, don't talk to me tonight.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

I can't cope tonight, Grandma. I cannot be dealing with.

[Christine]

You rescheduled it.

[Anthony]

I honestly.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Because I knew tonight.

[Anthony]

We've never talked about this before.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Not really.

[Anthony]

We've never talked about this before, but I said the exact same thing. Not tonight.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Not tonight, Margaret. I always am in awe of, like, young kids who sort of. When they're told when they're wearing any form of religion that they. They wear it lightly. I'm like, how do you know? Like, why aren't you believing it? Who's Who. Who whispered in your ear that you don't really have to take it that seriously? And it's like just basically turn up a Christmas or grand.

[Anthony]

Yeah.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

I mean, you know, why wouldn't you go in hell for leather? Why wouldn't. If you're told about the banshees, go. Well, I mean, it makes as much sense as anything else.

[Anthony]

My nephew thinks that Jesus is one of the avengers. Like, he doesn't know that that's a.

[Christine]

What would that outfit look like?

[Anthony]

I don't know. I was like, no, he's not one of those. And he's like, oh, okay, right.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Wearing it so lightly. But, like, even with fairy forts and all, you know, oh, Jesus.

[Anthony]

You wouldn't go. You have fairy forts here.

[Christine]

Yeah, not in the same way. I know in Ireland, you know, we hear the famous anecdotes of roads being rerouted because fairy trees don't want to be disturbed and that kind of thing. Right? Is that.

[Anthony]

Yeah, yeah.

[Christine]

Is that what you're talking about?

[Anthony]

Yeah, yeah. That doesn't happen here.

[Christine]

I think so. In English folklore, I think fairies are absolutely a thing. They're present in the landscape, but they're not taken as seriously or they're not seen as tangible in the same way.

[Anthony]

It's weird because they're not in Ireland either. But at the same time, you wouldn't take the risk, you know, that kind of way.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

I know, but I feel very uncomfortable here, like, being in a room full of England, like, I genuinely do, because we just. Anthony, we come across, like.

[Anthony]

I know. That's what I'm saying. That's why I was rowing back. I was like, well, we do take it seriously, but we don't take it seriously at the same time.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

But we also. But, like, because there's such. It's used. It has been used as a reason to not take us seriously.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

So any discussion of superstition or supernatural or folklore, it's fueled, it's potent. You can't. You can't. It's potent because you can't. You can't separate. I can't separate it from this inheritance of feeling infantilized. And, you know, when you move over here or, like, all the things you have to combat when you move over here. And then, you know, it's like, yeah, but we can't.

[Anthony]

Yeah, I know.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Don't give them that. These are all just tales.

[Anthony]

Yes.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

They're interesting tales. Like, even to discuss the sort of metaphor of them, the. The. The usefulness the. Of the talismans. Or something. Stories as objects to explore something else. I still feel a little bit like, yeah, but we're not thick.

[Anthony]

Yeah.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

We're not stupid. We're very rational.

[Anthony]

But it feeds into the. The saints and scholars thing. Right. In that, mind you, she says we were very rational as we bargained with the Virgin Mary not to appear to us when we're children. But that's the kind of dichotomy of it, I suppose. But it's that saints and scholars thing, right? It's that storytelling. What we're not wary of is our storytelling and our narrative building and our community building through story and our inheritance through story and narrative. And I think maybe this is a decent place to wrap it up, but I think that's probably where the Banshee lives.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

I think so. And there's something that suits both parties in this when it's a gray area, because the storyteller can use it for their own need and the listener can use it for what they need to think of the storyteller. You know, it can be dismissed, or you can swear that you're telling the truth and still, you know, wink to the next person.

[Anthony]

There's that Wink is very important.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

And I think that's. That gray area is where a lot of relationships with Ireland and the Irish at this time sort of lives. We'll let you have this, but we're not really telling you the other stuff.

[Anthony]

The other stuff, yeah. Does that make sense? Siobhan for President? Yeah, it does make sense, but the.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

Banshee is, if nothing else, is a really cool image and a frightening sound.

[Christine]

And she's one that follows Irish people around the world, right?

[Siobhan McSweeney]

That's right.

[Christine]

People emigrate.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

She goes with them very much in America. Lots of stories. Lots of stories of her following them to America. So, you know, we like to travel.

[Anthony]

We do.

[Christine]

Well, I think we've probably run out of time, but. Siobhan, thank you so much for this amazing discussion and for bringing your BAFTA along with you today. Vital, thank you for inviting us both.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

I've had a really, really nice chat. Really nice chat.

[Christine]

Thank you so much for listening to After Dark Myths, Misdeeds and the Paranormal. You can follow us wherever you get your podcasts. And if you want to leave a review that's always appreciated. Would you say, Anthony, Only if it's good. Yeah, obviously only if it's good. Do not bother if it's bad. Thank you very much. We will see you next episode.

[Siobhan McSweeney]

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[Christine]

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[Siobhan McSweeney]

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[Russell]

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[Siobhan McSweeney]

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[Russell]

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[Christine]

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