Black Death: 5 Strangest Cures

Summary

After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal — Episode Summary

Episode Title: Black Death: 5 Strangest Cures
Release Date: March 24, 2025
Hosts: Anthony Delaney and Maddy Pelling
Knowledge Cutoff: October 2023

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Introduction

In this intriguing episode of After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal, historians Anthony Delaney and Maddy Pelling delve into the shadowed past of the Black Death, unraveling some of the most bizarre and desperate attempts humanity made to combat one of history's deadliest pandemics. Through a countdown format, the hosts explore five of the strangest cures used during the 14th century, blending historical insights with their characteristic humor and candid interactions.

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Setting the Scene: The Black Death

The episode opens with vivid descriptions of the devastation wrought by the Black Death in 1348, painting a grim picture of a city ravaged by the unseen pestilence. Anthony narrates the harrowing conditions, emphasizing the widespread fear and isolation experienced by the afflicted:

Anthony Delaney [00:27]: “Bodies lie where they fall, some abandoned in doorways. The stench of death, of sickness and pungent medicines pollutes the whole of the atmosphere.”

This dramatic introduction sets the tone for a deep dive into how people in the 14th century attempted to understand and combat the plague.

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Countdown of the 5 Strangest Black Death Cures

Number 5: Fighting the Miasma

Timestamp: [15:37]

The first cure on the list involves combating the "miasma theory," the belief that diseases were caused by corrupted air. To purify their environment, people burned various substances:

Anthony Delaney: “Wormwood was popular, which is, by the way, a key ingredient in absinthe today.”

They also used strong-scented fabrics soaked in vinegar to cover their mouths, an early form of respiratory protection.

Number 4: Flagellation

Timestamp: [29:10]

Flagellation was a widespread religious and social practice where individuals would whip themselves to atone for humanity's sins, hoping to appease divine wrath and halt the plague's advance.

Maddy Pelling: “It's a way to rid that village's sins in order that the sicknesses are going away.”

The hosts discuss the paradox of such self-harm during a time when people were desperate for relief, highlighting the misguided attempts to find solace and cure through extreme measures.

Number 3: Medieval Medicine (Theriac)

Timestamp: [31:00]

Medieval medicine categorized remedies into purgatives, cordials, and antidotes. The most notorious was theriac, a compound with up to 80 ingredients, including snake venom and opium.

Maddy Pelling: “If you ingest them... it's going to have some kind of a reaction or symptoms, right?”

While some ingredients like opium provided pain relief, the overall concoction was largely ineffective and often dangerous, acting more as a placebo than a cure.

Number 2: Use of a Live Chicken's Arse

Timestamp: [40:15]

Perhaps the most bizarre cure involved applying a live chicken's posterior to the afflicted bubo (swollen lymph node). Documented by a 1348 Catalan author, this method was believed to draw out the "poison" from the buboes.

Anthony Delaney: “It's like a reverse egg. So the first account we have of using this method is from 1348, from a Catalan author.”

The hosts express repulsion and disbelief at this practice, underscoring the lengths to which people would go in their fight against the plague.

Number 1: Human Feces

Timestamp: [43:57]

Topping the list is the most horrifying of all cures: the application of human excrement. Dr. Gentile da Foligno, a renowned Italian physician, reportedly used a mixture of herbs and his own feces to treat plague sufferers.

Maddy Pelling: “You're covered in your own poo as well...”

This grotesque remedy highlights the desperation and lack of understanding during the pandemic, leading to further complications and infections.

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Busting Myths: The Plague Doctor Mask

Timestamp: [23:13] – [26:15]

The episode transitions to debunking the popular image of the plague doctor. Contrary to common belief, the iconic beaked mask did not originate in the 14th century but emerged in the 17th century. The hosts examine a 1656 depiction of a plague doctor, revealing the anachronism.

Maddy Pelling: “They have got what look to me be a bird-like mask with a big beak that protrudes from under the brim of the hat.”

Anthony confirms the myth, clarifying that while doctors did use aromatic substances to ward off the plague, the stylized mask is a later invention.

Anthony Delaney [25:22]: “There is no evidence for these masks having existed during the 14th century.”

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Humorous Interludes and ASMR Segment

Interspersed with serious historical discussion, Anthony and Maddy inject humor into the episode. This includes light-hearted banter about feeling sick from describing gruesome cures and an ASMR segment where Maddy sprays a modern vinegar concoction to mimic medieval remedies, eliciting comical reactions from both hosts.

Anthony Delaney [17:30]: “I'm gonna have to go check in just a second.”

Maddy Pelling [19:26]: “I'm genuinely crying. As one might expect, it is vinegary.”

These moments provide levity amidst the dark subject matter, engaging listeners with the hosts' chemistry and playful interactions.

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Conclusion

The episode wraps up with Anthony and Maddy reflecting on the absurdity and desperation of medieval plague cures. They emphasize the importance of understanding historical context to appreciate how far medical science has come.

Maddy Pelling: “We are here to try these things so that you don't have to.”

Anthony Delaney: “So you don't have to.”

Their final remarks serve as a humorous yet poignant reminder of the evolution of medical knowledge and the dire measures humans have taken in the face of pandemics.

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Notable Quotes

• Anthony Delaney [07:09]: “The humoral theory...blood, phlegm, black bile.”

• Maddy Pelling [15:26]: “Maddy Pelling, A Life of Cold and Dry.”

• Anthony Delaney [16:41]: “Sperm whale vomit... made me feel sick again.”

• Maddy Pelling [37:55]: “If you were in the medieval period, do you know what? They seem sensible.”

• Anthony Delaney [43:57]: “You're covered in your own poo as well.”

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Final Thoughts

After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal successfully blends historical scholarship with engaging storytelling and humor. By exploring the most peculiar and ineffective Black Death cures, Anthony and Maddy shed light on the human condition during one of history's darkest periods, offering listeners both education and entertainment.

For more episodes exploring the shadiest corners of history, visit History Hit and subscribe for early access and ad-free listening.

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Transcript

[Anthony Delaney]

Hi, we're your hosts Anthony Delaney and Maddy Pelling and if you would like After Dark Myths, Misdeeds and the Paranormal ad free and get early access.

[Maddy Pelling]

Sign up to History Hit with a History Hit subscription. You can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries with top history presenters and enjoy a new release every week.

[Anthony Delaney]

Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe.

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[Anthony Delaney]

If you have a locked AT&T phone, we're here with bolt cutters. T Mobile will help pay off your locked phone and give you a new 5G phone for free. All on America's largest 5G network. Visit t mobile.com carrier freedom via virtual prepaid MasterCard in 15 days free phone up to 830 via 24 monthly bill credits plus tax and a $10 device connection charge Qualifying port income trade in service on Go5G next and credit required. Contact us before canceling entire account to continue Bill credits or credit stop and balance on required finance agreement as do you have bill credits and if you pay off devices early Marseille, France early 1348 the plague has come. It moves like an unseen beast through the city, devouring flesh shattering families, leaving silence in its wake. Bodies lie where they fall, some abandoned in doorways. The stench of death, of sickness and pungent medicines pollutes the whole of the atmosphere. It is a time when husbands abandon wives, parents their children. Often no one dares to enter the House of someone who is dying. Not servants to collect their wages, not priests to save their dying parishioners souls. So the sufferers are left to fight the Black Death in a private world of pain. And yet, even in the midst of such horror, there are those who find opportunity. We're inside a merchant's house. Four hooded figures are standing over the recently deceased body of the Black Death's latest victim. The rest of the house is empty. Buboes on the dead person's neck bulge like putrid apples. The smell of death is in the air. Yet these four figures are cool, calm. With steady hands, they strip the body of its rings, its coin purse, anything of value they take. A thin trickle of pus leaks from a slit buboe, releasing a sickly sweet odor. One of the thieves curses and presses a cloth tighter over his mouth and nose. In this cloth lies the secret of their bravery. All four of these thieves have them clamped tight over their faces. When they are finally caught and made to confess, they are asked how they managed to come and go as they pleased in houses ravaged by the Black Death, to touch so many corrupted bodies and still survive. The secret, they said, was the cloth pressed to their mouths, for it was soaked in a magical concoction of their own design, a recipe that protects against the plague's bitterest attacks. It is a recipe which survives today and has become part of legend. Four thieves.

[Maddy Pelling]

Hello, and welcome to After Dark. I'm Maddie.

[Anthony Delaney]

And I am Anthony.

[Maddy Pelling]

And we are back talking about the Black Death. Maddie, come on.

[Anthony Delaney]

I'm gonna vomit. Like I've just said to everybody before I started. I feel really sick today. And then as I was reading that, some slit buboes and something pouring out of them, I was like, oh, guys, I'm gonna vomit live. And After Dark. This is not the one.

[Maddy Pelling]

Well, we've already flagged this with our producer. He said that it would be podcast gold. So I'm hoping just a little, a little bit.

[Anthony Delaney]

My hands have gone really cold. You know when that happens. It's fine. Everything's fine.

[Maddy Pelling]

It's not good. Guys, do you have any buboes in unfortunate places?

[Anthony Delaney]

Don't. And how dare you be so personal.

[Maddy Pelling]

Mattie Pelle, maybe it's time to check. Off air, please. Okay, so in previous episodes, we have talked about the origins of the Black Death, the myth, the reality. We have also tried to understand what it might have been like to live through such a cataclysmic event.

[Anthony Delaney]

All right. Cataclysmic. Well done.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, you're welcome. I don't have a PhD for nothing, mate. I know the big words. Today, as you might have gathered, we're taking a little bit of a lighter tone and we're going to be bringing you our top five Black Death cures.

[Anthony Delaney]

Feel like a radio DJ now?

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

Counting down from number five this week.

[Maddy Pelling]

We need a little jingle. Press the button. Ding, ding, ding. Number one, you need to get ready for things like a plucked chicken's arsenal. Human excrement. Sorry, Anthony.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, that actually did give me a wave of it. Okay, it's fine.

[Maddy Pelling]

Take a little breath and self flagellation.

[Anthony Delaney]

Well, whatever you're into, I suppose we will be talking about cures. Well, supposed cures for the Black Death.

[Maddy Pelling]

Supposed. Doing a lot of heavy lifting.

[Anthony Delaney]

A lot of heavy lifting. Can I give you a little bit of a medical background to life in 14th century England and Europe, so we know these are the cures that came to the forefront during this time?

[Maddy Pelling]

No, thank you. I don't want to know.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay. Thank you for listening to After Dark. If you would like to know more about humoral theory, then stay put because I'm going to tell you anyway. Even if Maddie doesn't want to listen. It is. So the humoral theory, as you probably listen, people have heard of these before, but it's just useful having this in the back of our minds. The humoral theory. Basically it believes that the body is governed by four humours. Blood, phlegm, black bile.

[Maddy Pelling]

How you doing there?

[Anthony Delaney]

Everything's fine. Illnesses were thought to result from imbalances from these humors. And I wonder what's imbalanced. Mine is definitely in the tummy, so mine could be. I don't want to talk about black bile. That's making me feel really quite sick.

[Maddy Pelling]

You can just imagine the medieval influences, right? Just talking about, like, you need to drain your phlegm system. Like, here's your gua sha.

[Anthony Delaney]

Mari. Mari.

[Maddy Pelling]

Mari.

[Anthony Delaney]

Please don't. It's now in my neck. Okay.

[Maddy Pelling]

Oh, God.

[Anthony Delaney]

Right, miasma theory.

[Maddy Pelling]

Moving on.

[Anthony Delaney]

Why am I. Why am I doing this podcast today? Then we have miasma theory, the belief that diseases are caused by bad air. Now this lasts into the Victorian era. This is quite prevalent, people. Again, this is something you might have heard about before. And as a result, you have to purify the air by burning herbs, doing things like that. And then we have the religious interpretations, you know, in the context of the 14th century. This is really understandable. You see plague as divine right because you need to be punished for something. And as a result, we Turn towards cures, then of prayer, of penance, of pilgrimage. So these are understandable ways in which people turn to religion in which to cure themselves of illnesses, including the plague. And then, of course, we have astrology.

[Maddy Pelling]

You say, of course, but. Sorry, what?

[Anthony Delaney]

Of course. Why would you not have astrology? Celestial events, if you will. And these are thought to influence health. Now, you talked about influences earlier. You know, this still happens. You see it all the time on social media. And this thought was that the alignment of the planets and the stars could be, well, let's say, consulted to help diagnose and treat specific illnesses, including the Black Death.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yes. Okay. So you set out there lots of different reasons that people might attribute to certain illnesses, certain diseases. I'm really interested in this idea of, like, planetary alignments or, as you say, celestial events influencing things on the ground and influencing things inside the human body. It's so fascinating to think of, I suppose, those medieval mindsets. But let's talk about the Black Deaths specifically. What did people believe was the root cause? Because let's not forget, throughout these episodes, you know, we've really seen how this was a disease that impacted so many people across the world. We have focused specifically on Europe in this series, and we know that something like 60% of the population was taken out by this. So there's a pretty strong motivation for finding the cause and trying to get rid of it. So were there any ideas at the time, or was this just a vague mystery that nobody could crack?

[Anthony Delaney]

Well, one option that I'd like to offer you is the alignment of Jupiter and Mars under the sign of Aquarius, which, you know, clearly that's what naturally. And the reason this one came about is because the king of France at the time, Philip vi, he had the medical faculty at the University of Paris publish this theory of why suddenly Black Death was amongst them. And that was one of their conclusions. This alignment then meant that there were southerly winds that was corrupting the air and it was entering the lungs and heart and infecting people. So this was one of the. I mean, that's coming from the very top of society. So that will give you an idea of the prevalence of these ideas.

[Maddy Pelling]

You know, how every now and then there'll be something that goes viral on social media about academic research and, like, you know, someone will hear someone's thesis title and be like, this is outrageous. People get funding for this. And I feel like, you know, the University of Paris publishing a theory on the Black Death that includes the alignment of Jupiter and Mars would be something that would funding. Absolutely.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Maddy Pelling]

This is outrageous. And fair enough in this case.

[Anthony Delaney]

No room for it in this case. Do you want another theory?

[Maddy Pelling]

I will take one. Yes, go on.

[Anthony Delaney]

Listen, we're here for this. So this is why you have to listen to it whether you want to or not.

[Maddy Pelling]

I have nothing else to do today. Tell me.

[Anthony Delaney]

No, another theory was. Wait, when is your leaky tap getting fixed? Oh, it's on Monday. Not.

[Maddy Pelling]

It's on Monday. Yeah, yeah. Anthony has a leaky stomach. I have a leaky tap.

[Anthony Delaney]

No, it's not leaky. I'm afraid it's going to come out the top end, not the bottom end. Do we keep this in? Who knows? If you're hearing it in the episode, they've kept it in. We have no control over the leak. Stomachs. Oh, God.

[Maddy Pelling]

Stay on track. Stay on track.

[Anthony Delaney]

Sorry. Yes, history. Some people thought that earthquakes could have been a contributing factor. Earthquakes? I hear you ask Maddie Pelling, because if the earth were to quake, it releases rottenness from the earth. So I guess that's feeding back into the kind of miasma thing, like bad air, right?

[Maddy Pelling]

Uh huh. Yeah. That's super interesting. And I suppose as well there's a potential overlap there with sort of like natural disaster and ideas of divine punishment, that this is something being enacted and released into the world. God, that's really interesting. Now tell me this. Obviously we from a modern perspective have very different information about how disease spreads. Was there in the medieval period itself any sense that the Black Death was transferred from person to person? Like we've got the planets aligning, we've got earthquakes happening. Did anyone say, do you know what? I think it might be Bill from down the road who came around for dinner the other night. And now we're all sick and he was sick.

[Anthony Delaney]

Maybe that's what's happened to me. Mind you, I didn't go to dinner with anybody anyway. Sorry, that's.

[Maddy Pelling]

Besides stop inviting Bill round, obviously.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, good old Bill. Yes, there was actually. But it came around in a bit of an odd way. Well, in one sense, one. One. Isn't that odd? One is that like breathing. If an ill person around, you breathed and then you breathed in their breath. So if you're very close to them, basically, but you'd need to be like breathing in their breath, like directly almost. So like husband and wife situation. Let's. That's like very close. Listen, I'm not straight. I don't know what you people do. I don't know what you do.

[Maddy Pelling]

A husband and wife situation.

[Anthony Delaney]

You're there breathing each other's air in all the time, I guess. I don't know.

[Maddy Pelling]

That is. That is what. What the straight people do.

[Anthony Delaney]

It's.

[Maddy Pelling]

It's true. It's true.

[Anthony Delaney]

Listen, whatever you do in the privacy of your own home, it's absolutely fine. Yeah, so that was one way, but the other way. And I like this. This is quite dramatic. It could be transmitted by locking eyes with a dying person. Right. Love that. Oh, and they recommended a blindfold in those situations, so you couldn't. It's like, who is it that turns people to stone?

[Maddy Pelling]

Medusa.

[Anthony Delaney]

That one. It's like that. But you do. You do it with people in your house?

[Maddy Pelling]

I've never heard that before. I mean, that is genuinely fascinating, this idea that sight alone. And I suppose there's something intimate about that, isn't there, about looking into the eyes of a dying person, but that. That was somehow contagious. Oh, I'm gonna be thinking about that for a while. That's really interesting.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. It's kind of bleak, actually, as well, isn't it, really? And also, looking into the eyes of a dying person's pretty int.

[Maddy Pelling]

Well, yeah. And also, we've looked at the impact that the Black Death had on communities and how prevalent death was and how devastating this was to towns, cities, villages. And there's something dehumanizing about having to wear a blindfold when dealing with someone who's dying, that you are looking to remove yourself from that situation and that you're not there to provide comfort for that person in their last moments. We know that people have these ideas about how this is potentially spreading. Is there a sense that some groups in society are more at risk than others to catching this?

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes. You would have been fine. Because if you were thought to be dry and cold, you were less at risk.

[Maddy Pelling]

I'm famously dry and cold.

[Anthony Delaney]

You are. You're always cold. If Maddie's in a studio recording, Maddie is shivering her face off, whereas I'm like, oh, my God, it's so warm in here. Blah, blah, blah.

[Maddy Pelling]

Anthony's just sat there in, like, a string vest, and I'm in, like, four layers of fur coats.

[Anthony Delaney]

Nobody needs to. Nobody needs to be thinking about me.

[Maddy Pelling]

In a string vest. And you will be able to catch all these episodes with Anthony, a string vest on YouTube.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. But if you were too wet or too warm, then those were the people who were more likely to catch this disease. So, for instance, people who were thought to have too much sex or too much exercise, they were thought most sticky, sweaty people.

[Maddy Pelling]

Stick to being cold.

[Anthony Delaney]

Cold and dry. Like Maddy Felling. That's the name of her memoir. Maddy Felling, A Life of Cold and Dry.

[Maddy Pelling]

How. How lovely you are to me. So appealing.

[Anthony Delaney]

So there she is now in her coldness and her dryness. Maddy, are you ready for the countdown of cures?

[Maddy Pelling]

Anything to stop you from talking about my coldness and my dryness, please. Can I have an Alan Partridge radio jingle, please?

[Anthony Delaney]

It's time for the Afterdog Countdown. At number five, we have Fighting the Miasma. Basically, that would be anything that you did to clean or purify the air so that the air that you're breathing in is not full of illness. Makes sense.

[Maddy Pelling]

Especially. Especially if you're husband and wife and you're just a bit too close to each other. Like, fight the miasma there.

[Anthony Delaney]

Let's breathing each other in, or whatever people do.

[Maddy Pelling]

So there's not a ready supply of nice scented candles in this period. What are people using to purify the air?

[Anthony Delaney]

Incense, wood. Anything you could burn, really. Wormwood was popular, which is, by the way, a key ingredient in absinthe today. But if you're very rich, you might have something else which was extremely pungent. Oh, wow. I was feeling a little bit better. This is not the one, though. Sperm whale vomit.

[Maddy Pelling]

Sorry, those are three words that you don't want to read in quick succession.

[Anthony Delaney]

Can I just say, I saw sperm in whale, and then I didn't see the vomit bit, and I was just like, where are they getting whale sperm from? But it's. Where are they getting sperm whale vomit from? Either way, this is making me feel sick again. Found in the Indian Ocean is the answer to that. And it was introduced to Europe by Arab peoples who were using it for perfume or medicine, but somehow, again, gets converted into something that you can then just burn directly in your house. And then if you didn't do either of those two things, you could, like we heard in the story at the start, cover your mouth with something that was strongly scented. So you put some. Something that was strongly scented on some fabric. And vinegar was often used as one of those things, which you could. You know, you can see that vinegar being quite pungent and whatever else.

[Maddy Pelling]

On that note, Anthony, we have now reached the ASMR part of this podcast. I'm going to be introducing you to a lovely glass bottle. Hopefully you can hear the tingles. And we're gonna. Yeah, we're gonna be saying, blood, death, blood death, blood, death, blood, death. Do you like a bit of asmr? I love a bit of asmr.

[Anthony Delaney]

No, it doesn't do it for me. No.

[Maddy Pelling]

Oh, I love it.

[Anthony Delaney]

Freaks me out.

[Maddy Pelling]

So in our ASMR bottle, producer Freddie has organized for these to be sent to us.

[Anthony Delaney]

These were delivered to our homes.

[Maddy Pelling]

Can I just say, also delivered with no context. Initially, Freddie, our producer, forgot to tell us these were coming. And I was like, why have you sent us this in the post?

[Anthony Delaney]

Who has sent us this?

[Maddy Pelling]

These are glass spray bottles from a business called the Purbeck Apothecary. And this is inside.

[Anthony Delaney]

It's Purrbecca Place.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yes. On the south coast. It's very pretty. This is the famed cure for thieves, vinegar, that Anthony spoke about in the introduction. Anthony, are you smelling or tasting? How brave are you feeling?

[Anthony Delaney]

I'm gonna. Despite the threat of vomiting, I'm gonna taste it because. Have you smelt this yet?

[Maddy Pelling]

No, I haven't opened mine yet. Shall I smell it first? I'm gonna smell it.

[Anthony Delaney]

Smell it first. Yeah.

[Maddy Pelling]

Shaking the bottle.

[Anthony Delaney]

You. You sprayed way too much. You sprayed way too much.

[Maddy Pelling]

My God. Oh, my God.

[Anthony Delaney]

Don't ever do that again. Your house is gonna reek. Oh, my God. I did one spray and I was like, no, it's too much. And you just did about four.

[Maddy Pelling]

I. I committed. Oh, wow.

[Anthony Delaney]

And she kind of sprayed it across her entire body, so she's now going to have that.

[Maddy Pelling]

I was trying to do it near the microphone so you guys could hear at home. Oh, my gosh. Okay, that is what it smells like. That is in my nose. My eyes are watering. Oh, my God. I'm actually crying. Okay. Wow, wow, wow. Okay, that is.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, my God. It's awful, right? It's so bad. Okay.

[Maddy Pelling]

Oh, my God. I'm genuinely crying. As one might expect, it is vinegary. I'm looking at the ingredients list here. Organic apple cider. At least it's organic. Wormwood, meadowsweet, lavender. Can't smell the lavender currently.

[Anthony Delaney]

No.

[Maddy Pelling]

Hyssop, Marjoram, mint, thyme, sage, cloves, garlic. That's all fine and sweet. Flag. I'm not sure what that is. Okay, that. Wow. I oversprayed, my friend. I oversprayed it.

[Anthony Delaney]

You did?

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah. I was about to say basted.

[Anthony Delaney]

I don't taste it now.

[Maddy Pelling]

The overspraying. I am not tasting that, but.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, God.

[Maddy Pelling]

Knock yourself out. Go on.

[Anthony Delaney]

I'm only going to do a small bit if this makes me vomit. Okay, hold on. I'm scared. Maybe I feel like I'm a celebrity.

[Maddy Pelling]

Where are you spray. Are you gonna spray it into your mouth?

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, where else would I spray it?

[Maddy Pelling]

Maybe spray it on your hand and then lick it or something.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, no, because then my hand's gonna smell of it. Hold on. No, let's just do it. I'm gonna do it, but I'm gonna do just a small.

[Maddy Pelling]

Why do I get the impression we would not survive the Black Death in any way, shape, or form? No.

[Anthony Delaney]

Well, we might if we didn't use these quack remedies. Okay, hold on. Oh, God, I'm scared. Okay, wait. Oh, I don't like it. No, no, no, no, no, no. I don't like it.

[Maddy Pelling]

The panic is real. Oh, he's swigging water. Deep breath.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, my God. No. Oh, my God. That tastes like absolute cat piss. I've never tasted cat piss, but, like. Oh, my God, it's on my face as well because I didn't have a very good aim. Oh, my God. Okay. Okay, I need some more water.

[Maddy Pelling]

So nobody is gonna want to be breathing in anywhere near us anytime soon.

[Anthony Delaney]

It's on my lips. It's on my lips. Oh, I don't like it. Who? Ah.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, my God. It's awful. I don't know what that tastes like because I've never tasted anything like it. It's awful.

[Maddy Pelling]

So do you want to know the history behind this? Right. So the story goes, I love the way Maddie's happy.

[Anthony Delaney]

I'm supposed to be doing it, but Maddie's happy to do it because I can't bloody do it.

[Maddy Pelling]

I'm taking over. I'm taking control. So the story goes that during the Black Death, there were four thieves who stole from some of the infected bodies. They robbed the bodies of the dead without catching the disease, even though they came into close contact with them. And when these four thieves were caught, they were examined and interrogated. And it turns out they had created a distilled vinegar concoction containing things like cloves, lemons, cinnamon, eucalyptus, and rosemary. Very similar to what we are currently reeking of. And it was thought that this had kept them safe from harm.

[Anthony Delaney]

Well, if they were safe from harm, it wasn't this that kept them safe from harm. Yeah, Maddie, that's just absolutely disgusting. I don't like it. And never make me do that again. I. No. Thank you very much.

[Maddy Pelling]

Okay, so obviously, whether or not this had any kind of medical practical usefulness, this was a concoction, along with many others that was kind of floating around in use as a way to ward off the plague. Is this the kind of concoction that would end up in those beak like noses of the plague doctors. Because that's an image that I have associated with the Black Death. So my questions are not very well put.

[Anthony Delaney]

Number one, she's reviewing herself in real time on the podcast. Okay.

[Maddy Pelling]

I'm literally stinging so much from this vinegar that I've sprayed on my throat.

[Anthony Delaney]

It's distracting, isn't it? I am so struggling. I totally agree. I'm just here going. I feel like I'm flailing in this.

[Maddy Pelling]

Room, just around the world. My nose is running like this is. It's wild. It's completely wild. And I've sprayed it on my clothes. So I'm gonna have to go check in just a second.

[Anthony Delaney]

We are done with this.

[Maddy Pelling]

Okay? Yeah. So number one question is, are plague doctors real? Is that something that we have inherited that's part of popular culture today? And two, were they putting things like this in their nose?

[Anthony Delaney]

People were putting stuff to their nose. Stuff like this to their nose. Yes, but not in the plague doctor image that you have now. Time honoured after dark tradition. I have an image for you, Maddie, that is our stereotypical plague doctor. Just describe it to us. We'll put this on our socials and tell us what we can see and then we'll talk about the legitimacy of this in terms of the 14th century.

[Maddy Pelling]

Okay. So this is the stereotypical image that I'm sure lots of you are thinking of right now. So this is a figure, possibly a male figure, I suppose you wouldn't necessarily know, dressed in all black, in a black sort of tabard cloak situation with a black hat on top. They have got very lovely looking medieval shoes with little, slightly more sort of early modern shoes really, that are also black but with these nice red ribbons. They've got what look to me to be gloved hands, although there's some interesting animalistic claw like nails coming out the ends of the fingers. And of course on the face is a mask. It is, I suppose today you describe it almost as a sort of steampunk mask. That's very much, you know, the sort of aesthetic that has adopted this image. It's a bird like mask with a big beak that protrudes from under the brim of the hat. Quite far out, actually. And there are these kind of vast black discs for eyes, presumably, so that the person beneath can see out. And my very limited knowledge of this period is supposedly that herbs and other strong smelling items were put into the beak as a way of warding off the illness, as these people who were plague doctors question mark would go about Their business. It's a way of them being able to walk amongst the diseased and not die. Is this true?

[Anthony Delaney]

Maddie, you have been lied to and misled, and I am outraged on your behalf. Take a look down there. Take a look at the. The very bottom of the image. You'll see some very decorative writing. There is a date. It says anno. Can you read that date for me, please?

[Maddy Pelling]

1656. This is far too late. Okay, so is this a play Doctor that really existed in the 17th century then? Or is this something that has been invented in that moment?

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, It's. It's a 17th century doctorate. There is no evidence for these masks having existed during the 14th century. So that doesn't mean to say that doctors weren't taking some of those precautions. You know, you're talking about putting smelling things in the beak and all that kind of thing that did happen. They had sponges that they would put to their mout. This. But they were, as far as we're aware, in the context of the 14th century, they're doing that manually. They're not dressed like this. They don't look like this. So in so many people's minds, this is the 14th century plague doctor, but it's actually a 17th century thing.

[Maddy Pelling]

There we are, busting myths and vomit inducing in the process.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, God.

[Maddy Pelling]

Foreign.

[Anthony Delaney]

Ryan from the Tony and Ryan.

[Maddy Pelling]

Podcast from Down Under.

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[Maddy Pelling]

Okay, so we've had fighting miasma in our countdown. Can we please now have number four?

[Anthony Delaney]

At number four we have flagellation.

[Maddy Pelling]

Oh good.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. As you do so we have individuals, well groups of individuals who are known as flagellants. Now to flagellate oneself, I need to be really careful. What I'm saying here means to basically whip yourself or to hit yourself, or to hurt yourself, inflict damage on yourself physically. They're all over Europe really. This is quite widespread, drawn from all levels of society.

[Maddy Pelling]

And this is a religious practice, right?

[Anthony Delaney]

Well, it comes from religious practice. I think it still has religious meaning, but it becomes kind of social and cultural as well because are not in religious settings necessarily, you know what I mean, during this time period.

[Maddy Pelling]

So people are doing this in their.

[Anthony Delaney]

Own homes, they're doing it in their own homes, but they're also traveling around. So you're going to villages, seeing people in the middle of villages who are self flagellating as a way to rid that village's sins in order that the.

[Maddy Pelling]

Sicknesses are going so it can be performative. It's not just a prior thing. That's so interesting. I mean, yeah, I mean when we think about sort of prayer and other spiritual practices in this era, obviously you think about people going to church, going to mass, experiencing that as a community, but also about people saying their prayers in private. And this is interesting. This is actually something that's happening maybe predominantly out in the open and that it's something to be witnessed and potentially a way to ward off disease. Bizarre.

[Anthony Delaney]

Well, it is bizarre. The rationale was that this self punishment would atone for humanity's sins and it would, I suppose, appease the divine wrath that was causing the plague. And as a. It would. It was carried out for a period of 33 and a half days, which of course, corresponds with Christ's years.

[Maddy Pelling]

You'd be glad when you got to that half day, be like, oh, just a half day of whipping myself today.

[Anthony Delaney]

Mary, we're nearly there. It's nearly over. I can stop self flagellating.

[Maddy Pelling]

Also, on a practical medical note, if you have flagellated yourself and presumably broken the skin, I'm thinking of people sort of, you know, flagellating on their back and maybe breaking the skin on their back with some kind of. Of leather instrument. I suppose it would be a whip made maybe from rope or leather. That is opening you up to. Literally opening you up to all kinds of infections during the plague. Like, this is not necessarily a practice that is going to help in any way, shape, or form and might make things worse.

[Anthony Delaney]

So as a doctor of science, which you now are. Maddie.

[Maddy Pelling]

I am a medical doctor. Yes.

[Anthony Delaney]

Are we thinking effective or not effective at. At our number four cure?

[Maddy Pelling]

I'm gonna say not effective.

[Anthony Delaney]

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Clearly not.

[Maddy Pelling]

What a surprise.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes. Shall we move on to another of our top five countdowns? This comes in at number three, and it is the very loosely titled medicine. Yeah. Okay, so let's get a little bit more specific. Medicine in the medieval period falls into three categories. We have purgatives, which cleans the humors.

[Maddy Pelling]

I feel like you maybe need that today.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes, Maddie, I. Yes, I need some kind of healing power today. Definitely. I'm feeling a little bit better as we go through this. Ironically, weirdly, then, the second type of medicine was a cordial, which sounds like kind of a diluted squash thing to me, but there you go. That would be looking to strengthen your heart and your brain and your liver. And then the third type of medicine was the antidotes, which, you know, we're kind of familiar with that. And it neutralizes, so. Neutralizes poisons. So that would help to fight the disease itself. So we have purgatives, cordials, and antidotes.

[Maddy Pelling]

Well, tell me a bit more about antidotes, because I think this is very interesting. You know, the idea of purging, I suppose, continues well into the. The 19th century and possibly even the 20th. You know, I'm thinking about People being bled or having leeches applied to them. That. That's a. An idea that exists for a really long time. Cordials, I suppose, you know, the idea of strengthening yourself with some kind of liquor or treatment of some kind. But. But antidotes is really interesting me because this idea that you can neutralize a poison that's entered your body or a disease that sounds like that's going to be the most successful thing to take some medication that is going to counteract what's happening to you, that seems like it would be scientifically more likely to work. Right. That's how medicine works. You're welcome. I do have that medical degree. So tell me a little bit more about the kinds of antidotes that were being taken.

[Anthony Delaney]

I will now in a minute, but before I do that, I need to ask you a question. In this country. Well, we're both in Britain at the moment. In this country, is flat seven up a thing that's used to cure all ails.

[Maddy Pelling]

What is seven? It. What?

[Anthony Delaney]

Flat seven up. Okay, this is Irish then. So no matter what is wrong with you in Ireland, there is nothing that flat 7 up can cure. If you are sick and a child, the first thing that's sent for certainly was back in my day is flat seven up. Flat seven up cures all ills. And so as such, flat seven up must be some kind of an antidote to absolutely every single.

[Maddy Pelling]

Well, if only they'd had it in the medieval period, the Black Death would have been cured.

[Anthony Delaney]

They had something called theriac instead. Not quite as catchy as that one.

[Maddy Pelling]

Needs some catchier marketing.

[Anthony Delaney]

Branding. Right? Yes. Yeah, yeah. It is a compound. It had 80 ingredients. I'm already tired. I'm never gonna make this. I hope Freddie doesn't send whatever the hell this is to our doors next week where we have to eat this as well. Well, actually, hold on. It doesn't sound so bad. Cinnamon, saffron, expensive rhubarb, pepper, ginger.

[Maddy Pelling]

That all sounds like the kind of thing. Again, thinking about sort of social media wellness, you know, that's the kind of thing you'd put in a blender and then make into ice to use as tea at a later date. Right.

[Anthony Delaney]

You spoke a little too soon, Maddie, because the next set of ingredients is snake venom, poisonous sea onion, and often opium, which makes sense. The opium is doing anything there. Right. That's just setting you off on a.

[Maddy Pelling]

I mean, I'd love to know what happens when you mix opium with snake venom and poisonous sea Onion.

[Anthony Delaney]

Dead 100%.

[Maddy Pelling]

If you weren't already dead. A plague. This sounds like it's not going to be the one. Okay, interesting. Were there sort of varying recipes of this? Could you, for example, could you just use the cinnamon, saffron, rhubarb, pepper, and ginger and be like, I'll leave it at that. Do you have to have the opium?

[Anthony Delaney]

No, because, like, who's going to have easy access to snake venom? You put this together as much as you can to the extent that you.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah. Although I will say, you know, you mentioned that saffron is incredibly expensive. It's still one of the most expensive, or the most expensive, expensive spice in the world. Right. So what would have been easier to come by as a medieval. Maybe not peasant, but someone from the lower orders. Would it have been saffron or would it have been snake venom?

[Anthony Delaney]

Depending on where you are. Snake venom, I'm guessing, like, if you're in Ireland. No, because St. Patrick had gotten rid of all the snakes. But anywhere else.

[Maddy Pelling]

Has anyone ever tried to recreate this? I feel like this would be a really good YouTube series.

[Anthony Delaney]

Well, the Purbeck Apothecary needs to get onto this. This is her next installment of Things.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, well, it's right by the sea, so sea onions will be easy to find.

[Anthony Delaney]

But there was a Polish team of pharmacists in 2024 who made a version of this, and apparently it just looked like black sludge.

[Maddy Pelling]

I mean, I could have guessed that to be fair. Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

Not surprised. Do you want to know the rationale behind this? Like, why they thought this would work?

[Maddy Pelling]

Well, I'm guessing it was just, if you put enough stuff into some black sludge, one of those ingredients is going to pay off. Maybe slash kill you immediately.

[Anthony Delaney]

Sure. Yes. But also because it was, like, thought to be an ancient cure, so that it had lingered for thousands of years by that. Like, it was thought to come from antiquity. And so the reputation and also the prestige. Right. Because a lot of those ingredients can be quite prestige ingredients. So they're like, well, if you have this, then you kind of know what you're doing. This should have helped, but obviously.

[Maddy Pelling]

So it's like plague, but make it bougie. You have to demonstrate your social standing by. Oh, you. You don't have snake venom and opium. We do.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, no. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, back to Maddie's scientific degree here. Do we think this was effective or not effective?

[Maddy Pelling]

I'm sort of torn on this one, because I think the fact that it has opium in. And we know that people use opium throughout the centuries for pain relief. To relieve things like anxiety. I mean, it's definitely having some effect on you. Whether it's useful at fighting plague is another thing. But I think this is going to give you a sort of reaction or symptoms, right?

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, but I think you're right about the opium that that's going to have some kind of suffering alleviation attached to it. I mean, that can have other side effects too, depending on the quantity of opium that's put in there. But and actually, just incidentally, the Polish team that recreated it in 2024, they said it basically is a placebo. But you know, opium you just have to take into consideration opium is going to have some kind of an effect on the senses and on your mind. So it could potentially alleviate some of the suffering. And maybe that was seen as part of the cure or any potential cure. But certainly there's no medical reason why you would be better from having ingested theriac flat 7 up. However.

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[Maddy Pelling]

Okay, number two, please.

[Anthony Delaney]

In the countdown, we're hurtling Maddie towards number one. But at number two, actually, there's a world in which this may have been. This should have been number one, but it's come in at number two, the people have spoken. And at number two, no people have spoken, just the producers. They put it in this order. At number two, we have the use of a live chicken's arse. Maddie.

[Maddy Pelling]

Oh no. Poor chickens. Okay, oh, God. Dare I ask.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, my God. I just realized it's alive. Yeah, it's alive. The chicken's alive.

[Maddy Pelling]

Okay, what's happening to the chicken? Tell me quickly.

[Anthony Delaney]

Pluck the feathers from around the bum hole of the chicken and then place that bumhole onto the person's bum, like the lumps they get.

[Maddy Pelling]

Wait, place the chicken's bottom or place the feathers? Place the bottom.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. The arsehole.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

Onto the bubo.

[Maddy Pelling]

I have no words.

[Anthony Delaney]

It's like a reverse egg. So the first account we have of using this method is from 1348, from a Catalan author.

[Maddy Pelling]

Sorry. Can you imagine being remembered in history? Your legacy is that you once wrote down that you need to put a chicken's arsenal on someone's bubo.

[Anthony Delaney]

Bubo is a weird word. I don't like it. We're gonna need to think of a different word for that. Bubo sounds rude or something. I don't know.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, I mean, it's not the most appealing thing anyway. Okay, go on.

[Anthony Delaney]

It's not, but I can make it worse. This is absolutely vile. Sometimes the bubo was lanced first to draw out the poison, and then the chicken was used to draw out more. The chicken's arsenal was used to draw out more. Now, isn't that absolutely disgusting?

[Maddy Pelling]

Yes. Also very unclean.

[Anthony Delaney]

It's literal. Yes. Yes.

[Maddy Pelling]

It's not great. Okay, so please lay this out for me. What is the thinking here? Because this, of all the. The other cures, do feel. If you were in the medieval period, do you know what? They seem sensible. There are ingredients there that were used in other medicines that have then and today known benefits. If you ingest them. I can't possibly conceive of what the use of a chicken's arse would be.

[Anthony Delaney]

Well, randomly. There is a logic to it. It's not good logic, but there is a logic to it. Well, no, hold on. Okay, let me hear me out again. We need to go back to the ancient world. Chickens and chicken broth were seen as a useful source of kind of medicine and healing.

[Maddy Pelling]

So the broth thing, if you're poorly now you have chicken soup.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah.

[Maddy Pelling]

That's still a thing.

[Anthony Delaney]

Right, so, like, this was seen as being particularly effective against poisons. So the chicken itself. But the chicken arse.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, but where's the arse coming in here? Because it's one thing to make a nice soup out of a nice chicken or roast it or whatever, you know, that's lovely. No, no to the chicken bum.

[Anthony Delaney]

No. And I can't tell you why. The arse comes into it. I really can't. But out. There you go. It did.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

Science, Maddie. Useful or not useful?

[Maddy Pelling]

I'm gonna say not only not useful, but incredibly dangerous.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, yeah. You're just gonna get more infections. It's just gonna kill you off, essentially, if you haven't already.

[Maddy Pelling]

If you're gonna try any of these at home and we don't recommend it, this is the one to very much not do.

[Anthony Delaney]

I love the way we don't recommend trying any of these at home. And we just tried our own.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

Throwback, apothecary, four thieves, Vinegar, which absolutely nearly killed.

[Maddy Pelling]

We are here to try these things so that you don't have to.

[Anthony Delaney]

So you don't have to.

[Maddy Pelling]

You're so welcome. Okay. Number one.

[Anthony Delaney]

And at number one, it's the spice. No, it's doctor, heal thyself with shit. Yes, that's right.

[Maddy Pelling]

Okay. I thought it couldn't get any worse when the chicken.

[Anthony Delaney]

I don't know. I think the chicken's arse is quite. Is possibly worse. I mean, get that image in your head, Maddie, of the chicken's arse. Of the shaved chicken's arse.

[Maddy Pelling]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You're saying. No, no, I'm not going there. You are saying that the number one cure, according to the order we have put these in, is human feces. Explain this to me, please.

[Anthony Delaney]

Well, now, this was for the elite, because this. Well, I'm gonna say the elite.

[Maddy Pelling]

This was for the doctors, naturally. Like, this is only the best.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is why I said, doctors, heal thyself, because doctors were the people who were contracting this at an alarming rate. And, you know, obviously they were, because they were being exposed to this even. Even potentially with patients who didn't even know they had plague at the time. Because doctors are meeting so many people, they were getting exposed to it more than most people might be. So this is one of the cures that the doctors themselves turned to. And we have an account of one Italian doctor called Gentile da Foligno.

[Maddy Pelling]

Beautiful pronunciation.

[Anthony Delaney]

Thank you. We didn't have to practice that 14 times before I was able to say it. Who caught the plague himself in 1348, but he was already quite famous, famous locally for heroically treating these plague patients of his own. And this is one of the remedies that he came up with. Mixing some herbs like carrots, celery, and parsley with root of lily. Don't know what that is, but it's on my list. And human excrement so it is human poo. I actually thought that it might have been animal poo, but you guessed correctly, it is human poo. And now it could be the patient's own. So, listen, if you're having the runs and you have the plague, scoop up some of that. I'm going to stop describing that now because that. My tummy's not feeling great again. Anyway, the ingredients were mixed together. Oh, Maddie, just finish that sentence there because I can't really finish it.

[Maddy Pelling]

So according to Anthony's notes in front of us, the ingredients were mixed together and much like the chicken's arse rubbed onto the bee bow itself. So not doing well with that word today. Okay, so you're dying of plague in Italy and Gentile da Foligno turns up and he's also got plague, but he's still heroically going around and helping you. He's probably spreading it to all his patients, but he turns up and he's like, here, let's look in the cupboard. What have you got? Carrot, celery, parsley. Brilliant. Fantastic. This is a really good start. And you're like, great, Doctor, are you going to save me? And he's. He's like, well, I have used my own shit on myself this morning and now it is time for you to use yours. So here we go in the blender, let's mix it up and then we're going to smear it all over you. So you're telling me that not only is it horrific to die of plague, but you're also covered in your own poo as well?

[Anthony Delaney]

That's essentially it. I mean, to give Gentile his dues, he believed that it was. Would withdraw excess fluids from the sores. Right. So then the swelling would go down. But, I mean, I'm going to take over on the scientific frontier and say you're actually just making it way, way worse.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah. Gentile. No, stop. Surely there would have been like, any other kind of paste that you could have used. Like, what you're trying to do is literally just to draw out excess fluid. Get a washcloth, get a towel, get some tissue. Okay, well, can I just say that I feel you started to feel sick? I feel thoroughly repulsed by humanity after this episode. No, thank you.

[Anthony Delaney]

Maddie, please send these lovely people away so that they might recover from the absolute horrendousness that we've just put them through over the last however many minutes.

[Maddy Pelling]

We can only apologise. Do write in with your complaints to after darkistoryhit.com and do not I repeat, do not try these at home until next time. Thanks for listening. You can catch all our other episodes, many of which do not feature human excrement wherever you get your podcasts.

[Anthony Delaney]

Or chicken arses.

[Maddy Pelling]

No chicken arses were hurt in the making of this episode.

[Anthony Delaney]

They probably were. Don't promise things you can't say. Hey, this is Jonathan Fields, host of the Good Life Project.

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[Maddy Pelling]

Story Join me, Holly Fry, and a slate of incredible guests as we are all inspired by their journeys with psoriasis.

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[Maddy Pelling]

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