Inside the Paris Catacombs

Summary

After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal

Episode: Inside the Paris Catacombs
Release Date: June 5, 2025
Hosts: Anthony Delaney & Maddy Pelling
Guest: Kat Irving, Human Remains Conservator at Surgeons Hall, Edinburgh

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Introduction to the Paris Catacombs

In this enthralling episode, hosts Anthony Delaney and Maddy Pelling delve deep into the shadowy underbelly of Paris by exploring the infamous Paris Catacombs. Joined by Kat Irving, a renowned human remains conservator, the trio unpacks the historical, cultural, and macabre facets of this subterranean labyrinth.

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The Problem of Overcrowded Cemeteries in 18th Century Paris

Anthony Delaney (02:21):
"In the dead of night in 1786, a solemn procession moved through the narrow gas-lit streets of Paris... These centuries of Paris dead are now buried not beneath sacred chapel, but beneath the city's skin, deep in a hidden, silent empire of the dead."

Paris in the late 18th century faced a dire issue: overflowing cemeteries. The Cemetery of the Innocents became particularly congested, leading to structural collapses in nearby buildings. Kat Irving explains that mass graves were common, with up to 2,000 bodies interred in a single grave (07:27).

---

The Creation of the Catacombs

To address the grim situation, Paris sought an innovative solution by repurposing existing underground limestone quarries. In 1777, Chalek Selgius was appointed as the inspector of quarries, tasked with stabilizing the city's expanding infrastructure (09:46). By 1786, these quarries became the new resting place for the deceased, marking the inception of what we now know as the Paris Catacombs.

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Design and Aesthetic Arrangements

Initially, remains were deposited haphazardly. However, under the guidance of Louis Hercard de Thurry in 1809, a more organized and aesthetically pleasing arrangement was implemented. Kat Irving notes that bones were sorted and stacked into decorative patterns, including crosses and plaques indicating their original cemeteries (15:00). This transformation aimed to honor the dead while adhering to Enlightenment ideals of order and hygiene.

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The French Revolution's Impact

The eruption of the French Revolution in 1789 introduced chaos that temporarily halted the relocation of remains. Moreover, due to overcrowded graves, decomposition was disrupted, leading to saponification—a process where fats from the bodies congealed into a waxy substance known as grave wax (17:11). This byproduct was repurposed into soaps and candles, blending the macabre with practical needs during tumultuous times (19:41).

Maddy Pelling (19:29):
"The French Revolution is the birth of waxworks... underground, you've got these waxen, strange, transformed figures of the dead."

---

Transition to Tourism and Modern-Day Use

By the 19th century, the Paris Catacombs had evolved into a public attraction. Figures like Hercard de Thurry not only organized the remains but also began inviting the public to explore the underground ossuary (32:10). Today, the catacombs stand as one of Paris's premier tourist destinations, requiring advance bookings due to their immense popularity (36:20).

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Respect and Preservation of the Dead

Kat Irving emphasizes the importance of maintaining respect for the deceased within the catacombs. Unlike mass graves, the catacombs allow visitors to appreciate the individuality of each skull and bone, challenging the notion of anonymity in death (39:47). She advocates for acknowledging and interacting with this historical repository to honor those who rest there.

Kat Irving (40:21):
"Skulls are as individual as we are. You can see rough age, gender, and even signs of diseases or trauma, offering a glimpse into the lives of those who dwelled in Paris centuries ago."

---

Expert Insights from Kat Irving

Kat Irving, with her extensive experience in human remains conservation, provides a nuanced perspective on the Paris Catacombs. She draws parallels with similar ossuaries across Europe, highlighting architectural and artistic expressions meant to remind the living of their mortality. Her work at Surgeon's Hall involves not only preservation but also educating the public about the historical significance of these remains.

Kat Irving (41:00):
"There’s something powerful about coming face-to-face with people who may have witnessed pivotal moments like the French Revolution. It bridges the past and present in a profound way."

---

Conclusion

"Inside the Paris Catacombs" offers a comprehensive exploration of one of history's most fascinating and eerie landmarks. Through engaging storytelling and expert analysis, Anthony, Maddy, and Kat illuminate the catacombs' transformation from a practical solution to a cultural and historical emblem. This episode is a must-listen for history enthusiasts and those intrigued by the intertwining of life, death, and memory.

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Notable Quotes:

• Anthony Delaney (02:21): "These centuries of Paris dead are now buried not beneath sacred chapel, but beneath the city's skin, deep in a hidden, silent empire of the dead."

• Maddy Pelling (19:29): "The French Revolution is the birth of waxworks... underground, you've got these waxen, strange, transformed figures of the dead."

• Kat Irving (40:21): "Skulls are as individual as we are. You can see rough age, gender, and even signs of diseases or trauma, offering a glimpse into the lives of those who dwelled in Paris centuries ago."

---

For more insights into the Paris Catacombs and related historical mysteries, subscribe to History Hit and explore hundreds of hours of original documentaries and award-winning podcasts.

Transcript

[Anthony Delaney]

Hi, we're your hosts Anthony Delaney and Maddy Pelling. And if you would like After Dark, Myths, Misdeeds and the Paranormal ad free and get early access, sign up to.

[Maddy Pelling]

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[Anthony Delaney]

Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe.

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[Maddy Pelling]

Hello and welcome to After Dark. I'm Maddie.

[Anthony Delaney]

And I'm Anthony.

[Maddy Pelling]

And in this episode. Oh my God, I'm so excited. We are going down the bone and skull lined corridors of the Paris catacombs. I can't quite believe we've never done this episode. Here's Anthony to take us in.

[Anthony Delaney]

In the dead of night in 1786, a solemn procession move the narrow gas lit streets of Paris. Cloaked figures, gravediggers, quarry workers and priests carry carts piled high with the remains of the long dead. Skulls and femurs clatter gently with each turn of the wheel. Muffled by the damp night air, the city's breath is still, save for the echo of hooves and the low murmur of of prayers. They reach the yawning mouth of the quarry, a dark stone lined descent into the earth. With torches flickering against the damp walls, the men step into the belly of the city. The limestone tunnels once used by the Romans are slick with moisture and cold as a crypt. The air grows heavier with each step, thick with the scent of wet rock decay and the faint iron tang of old death. In the flickering half light, shadows dance across the rough walls. The workers move silently, reverently. The only other sound the drip of groundwater, the scrape of wood on stone and the soft click of a skull being set upon by a growing wall of bone. Latin rites muttered by priests are swallowed by the labyrinth. Centuries of Paris dead are now buried not beneath sacred chape, but beneath the city's skin, deep in a hidden, silent empire of the dead. This is after dark and these are the Paris catacombs.

[Maddy Pelling]

Back above ground now for now. We are going back under in a minute. I am so excited to do this episode and joining us today is a guest that you might recognise from the film that Anthony and I made for History hit TV about Burke and Hare in Edinburgh, which was thoroughly enjoyable to me. You got to interview our guest today.

[Anthony Delaney]

I did and I loved it. It was one of my highlights to.

[Maddy Pelling]

Give the proper introduction. In case you've never seen Kat before, this is Kat Irving. She is the human remains conservator at Surgeons hall in Edinburgh. Kat, welcome. I can't believe this is your first time on the podcast.

[Anthony Delaney]

I know.

[Maddy Pelling]

And that we're only just covering the Paris catacombs as well.

[Anthony Delaney]

I know we've been talking about them for a long time, but this is our venture down underground. Yes. If you haven't checked out Burke and Hare on history hit tv. Please do. Cat's on there talking about some of the more kind of dastardly sides and skin on books and all that kind of thing. But when Kat and I were like between shots, we were in an old and theatre where you studied as an undergraduate, Right. In Edinburgh. And we were chatting away about all kinds of dark, dastardly things and we were then dming about catacombs in Italy, so we'll talk about those at another time. But we're here today to talk about Paris and what I want to know first. Kat. I suppose just to give people a sense of where they are if they don't know about this or if they haven't seen it on TikTok because it's doing the rounds there quite a lot. What is happening in Paris at the time when they decided to Build the catacombs. Can you just give us an idea of Paris in 17, 1786?

[Kat Irving]

Okay. Well, this is Paris. It's very different from Paris today. You know, there's no Eiffel Tower yet. Baron Haussmann hasn't rearranged the streets, you know, in the way that we know them today. There hasn't even been a revolution at this point. So it's a very, very different place. And it's a place that really, really, really has a problem with the dead. The cemeteries are overflowing. You know, there's been burials going on there for over millennia. And particularly crowded is a cemetery called the Sympathier des Innocence, the cemetery of which has just been having far too many bodies put into it.

[Maddy Pelling]

I think there's a story, isn't there, of cellars of the houses nearby that cemetery actually collapsing because of the pressure in the ground of all those bodies?

[Kat Irving]

Yes. So at that point, I mean, if you look at pictures of this cemetery, it's really different to the way that you would think of cemeteries today. You wouldn't actually think that it was an overcrowded place. Cause you look at it and, you know, you think of them today, like particularly those Victorian cemeteries where there's just like grave markers everywhere. But here there's just a couple of sort of spotted around and some buildings along the walls. But what was happening was that people were being buried in mass graves. You know, people, especially poorer folk, they did not have an individual grave like we would think of today. So the year before this incident that you're talking about happened. So 1779, it was said that there was a grave dug which contained 2,000 bodies.

[Anthony Delaney]

Wow.

[Kat Irving]

You know, that's a huge amount. And then there was a big storm the following February, you know, the kind of storm that would, you know, get alerts pinging on your phone today. Lots and lots of rain and yeah, a basement wall collapses in the nearing street and bones just tumble higgledy piggledy through into this cellar. And that's the point when they decide enough is enough.

[Maddy Pelling]

And that is fair enough, rightly so.

[Anthony Delaney]

Dead are literally bursting through the walls.

[Maddy Pelling]

It's time to do something about this. I'm sure. Kat, you've been. But have you ever been to Whitby there, where there's obviously there's the very famous church inspired Dracula on top of a hill and often the graveyard there, the cliff is eroding and some of the graves are exposed and do fall down into people's gardens. So quite regular.

[Anthony Delaney]

What bodies?

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah. Oh, I didn't know centuries old bodies, but, yeah, I believe it's quite a common occurrence there. So it's really interesting. The other thing that I want to say about this cat as well is I suppose, you know, we're in the latter half of the 18th century in France here and Europe in general, and France and Britain in particular are undergoing the Enlightenment. You know, it's this age of rationality and order, of categorizing things and of hygiene and of putting everything into its proper place. And here in the city, we've got this chaos. And I suppose those two ideas of organizing urban space, of understanding the world, they're coming into conflict, aren't they? So you can see why there's a desire, not just a practical desire, but almost an intellectual one, to change how the dead are dealt with.

[Kat Irving]

Yeah, well, I mean, this is a time when there's starting to be a bit of a change in the way we think about medicine. But we don't understand bacteria yet. We don't have those kind of ideas of disease. So there is the idea that diseases spread through miasma or bad air. And obviously, when you've got overflowing graves, it tends to be a great smell. So, I mean, it's. You know, it was said that there was a stench that came up from this graveyard, and if you lived nearby, then the wine turned to vinegar and milk went off very quickly. This was the idea that it was the bad air that was causing this.

[Anthony Delaney]

So we have this problem that we've set up and that we're kind of a little bit clearer on now. Then we talked about moving towards a solution. So when and where did they decide to take these bodies?

[Kat Irving]

Yeah, well, that's a really interesting question, because Paris has another problem at this time. So to the south of Paris, there are quarries which have been used. You know, it's effectively what Paris is built from, this stone underground quarries. And then Paris gets bigger. The suburbs are starting to expand, things are being built upon here, and then they start to fall into holes in the earth because the earth has been undermined by these quarries that are under the ground. So in 1777, so just before this problem is starting with the city's dead, they appoint a man, Chalek Selgius. He will become known as the man who saved Paris, and he becomes the man who's going to oversee trying to sort these problems out. And it's actually in the day that he was appointed into his position of inspector of quarries, what they do, what happens is on the rue d' Enferre. And for those that I know you speak French, that's Hell Street. Effectively, a house collapses into a hole.

[Maddy Pelling]

Wow.

[Kat Irving]

So, you know, this is a big problem. So he becomes known as the man who saves Paris because he starts to gives retrospective foundations to the city. He puts pillars up in these quarries which will support the land underneath. And you end up with, I think it's something like 150km of these tunnels created by these foundations being put into these, these old quarries.

[Maddy Pelling]

So I can see where this is going. We've got this problem with the dead, and we've got these quarries that are now being reinforced, made structurally safe. Paris is expanding on top of them. When does the decision come to start storing the dead down there?

[Kat Irving]

Really, really, really soon, you know, so there's an edict in 1780 which effectively allows that no further burials can take place in the city walls of Paris. So this will eventually lead on to the Lovely sort of 19th century garden cemeteries which are moved outside. And, you know, we all know and love today, but if you can't bury in this cemetery and it's considered a sort of rotting, unpleasant place, what are you going to. And that's when this decision is made that they're going to dig all those bones up. And some of them, they don't need to dig up because they've been keeping. They've been doing the digging up for centuries already. Like since the 14th century, this burial ground was overflowing. So to make room for new graves, they would dig the bones up and they would put them to channels along the walls. So some of those bones are already just there waiting to be put into a cart and shifted.

[Maddy Pelling]

So there is already a practice then of sort of processing people that they're not just being put in the ground, they are sometimes them being taken out. And I suppose flesh has gone from them, stored in that different way already. That's so interesting that that's happening. Maybe not on a mass scale, but there is that way of dealing with the dead already.

[Kat Irving]

Yeah. And this happened a lot. You know, this is not the only place this was happening. You know, it happens a lot. Certainly a lot of Switzerland, Austria, Germany, Bavaria, North Italy, these kind of ideas of recycling graves and storing the bones in the same place. Because obviously, you know, once you're dead, according to, you know, the Catholic faith, you're supposed to be on sanctified ground. So you can't just, you know, chuck them in the bin. So this idea of doing this and storing the bones has been around for a While. So there are lots and lots and lots of ostreys that have done this in other places. I mean, when I first got called up about doing this podcast, the first date they gave me, I was just like, no, no, no, I'm going to be on holiday, then going to look at osseries in France, because what else would you do is that I do on my holidays? So, yeah. So this kind of storage of bones has been going on for a while. What's different with the Paris catacombs is the scale.

[Anthony Delaney]

This brings up a question that we were talking about before you arrived. What is the difference or the relationship between ossaries and catacombs? Like, ultimately, they're places for storing the dead, but there seems to be a distinction.

[Kat Irving]

Okay, so the Paris Catacombs is officially known as the. The Municipal Austria of Paris. It's become known as the Catacombs because of the idea. It's in these underground tunnels which were reminiscent of the catacombs that were in Rome, which had been used for a long time as a place of worship in the early days of Christianity and also of burial. So they took the name catacomb from those underground tunnels.

[Maddy Pelling]

It's a very clever rebranding, isn't it, to go from the quarries, the perfunctory. You know, you're just getting the stone to build the city, and now suddenly they're emulating the Roman catacom.

[Anthony Delaney]

It's. Yeah, it's a nice history to.

[Maddy Pelling]

It's a nice reinvention. Yeah. And it's a borrowing of tradition from elsewhere. And a Catholic tradition, no less. Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

So essentially it is an ossuary, just on a very grand scale, and they're trying to inflict this tradition into it as well. Interesting.

[Maddy Pelling]

Tell us, Kat, about the design down there, about what this space actually looks like, because presumably, to begin with, it's just the empty space from which the stone has been quarried. But. But if you were to go down today, it looks very different from that. There's sort of very obvious and explicit aesthetics, really, to it. So what was the process to begin with? Was it a sense of just stacking up the bones, maybe categorising them as, you know, 10 skulls here, 10 femurs there.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, my God. Is that your dream job?

[Kat Irving]

That is effectively my job.

[Anthony Delaney]

On that scale, I meant.

[Kat Irving]

Yeah, no. I mean, no, I don't have 6 million people, but, you know, I do get to sort a lot of bones out, and it makes me very happy. But, yeah, it's a really interesting thing with the catacombs. Because obviously, Anthony gave us this description of them processing along with the bones, which is exactly how it happened. But once they got there, they effectively just had these kind of, you know, sort of like shafts, which they then just dropped them down. They weren't beautifully arranged as you see them today. And it was actually they appoint a second inspector of quarries in 1809. His name is Louis Hercard de Thurry, and he's the one who looks at that. You know, he's now got responsibility for these quarries and the bones that are in them, and they're still putting them down there at this point. You know, transferring of these bones doesn't stop till 1814. You know, they'd had a few delays with that revolution stuff that was going on. Minor detail, yeah. Inconveniences, you know, public works a lot. So, yeah, so he looks at that and thinks, you know, we need to have something a bit better done with these. So he's the one that arranges the sorting and the stacking, you know, putting the long bones together, you know, making the skulls into nice stacks, making them into crosses, things like that. It's quite decorative in a lot of ways, though. Not as decorative as some other osteries that you'll see around Europe. And he puts little plaques in, saying which cemetery the bones came from. So when you go there, you will see the bones that came from the Holy Innocent Cemetery. You will see those labeled as such. And he's the one that gives us the aesthetic look that we see today. And also the person who starts inviting people down to come and have a look once he's done it.

[Anthony Delaney]

So this idea of tourism starts to come in, and we'll come to that. But it's so interesting to hear that that's happening very early on. What exactly? You've touched on it there already. But The French Revolution, 1789, starts to give this new sense of energy to this and changes things slightly. So tell us what happened when the French Revol Revolution started then, in 1789.

[Kat Irving]

Well, the French Revolution, I mean, obviously it slows down the movement of the dead. It's not the only thing that slows down the movement of the dead, particularly in St. Innocent. One of the things they discover is, you know, normally that the usual process of these things, you know, you get buried in the ground, bacteria, decomposition, all that kind of thing happens, and you're left with nice skeletal bones. You know, it's all lovely, all nice and clean, and then they can dig them up. But the problem is that they were bearing so many people together that people were so crammed into those graves. There is no oxygen down there. And, I mean, you would normally think there's not much oxygen under the ground, you know, certainly not for you or me. You know, we're not going to survive down there. But there's enough of the bacteria that are doing their little decomposition thing, but these bodies are so packed in, you don't get that. And so decomposition isn't happening in the usual way. So you're starting to get an anaerobic reaction, a reaction without oxygen. So rather than decomposition, what you get is the F start to go through a reaction which is called saponification, which is the same reaction with which we.

[Maddy Pelling]

Love the word soap. I don't think I'm gonna love the outcome.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah, saponification.

[Kat Irving]

Saponification.

[Anthony Delaney]

Is that where the word soap comes from, then?

[Kat Irving]

Yeah. Yeah. So the fats aren't getting turned into soap, but they're getting turned into this waxy material, congeal, which is known as grave wax or corpse wax.

[Anthony Delaney]

Star bets.

[Kat Irving]

Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

And it's what, coming together, congealing altogether.

[Kat Irving]

It effectively will hold the shape of the body.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, I see.

[Kat Irving]

So if you go to the Mutter Museum in Philadelphia, they have someone there who's known as the soap lady because this had happened to her, and so her body is preserved.

[Maddy Pelling]

We're off now. Let's go and seek cases.

[Anthony Delaney]

You keep talking. We're off.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah. That's so interesting as well, because, of course, the French Revolution is the birth of waxworks. And we get Madame Tussaud creating her works, and eventually she goes to England, and there's something there about the kind of the imitation of human life and a living form. And then in the ground, there's these waxen, strange, transformed figures of the dead. It's a sort of, I don't know, an inversion of the world above ground and what's happening there in terms of art and also in terms of, you know, the death toll being added to the body count is going up the whole time during the French Revolution, more so than ever before. And then underground, you've got this strange thing happening. Wow. I need a moment to sit with that.

[Kat Irving]

And that's truly horrifying. It gets worse.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, go on.

[Kat Irving]

Yeah. So, I mean, obviously that's gonna. Inconvenience. You've got these soapy French people trying to. Bones, you know, you can't just stick them in your pile of bones. Yes.

[Maddy Pelling]

How do you deal with this?

[Kat Irving]

Ye. What they did was they collected up that waxy Material. And it did get used to make soaps and candles which were sold nearby.

[Anthony Delaney]

Shut up. They were selling. I mean, we talked about. What was her name? Kate.

[Maddy Pelling]

Kate Webster.

[Anthony Delaney]

Webster. So this is the body that was found.

[Maddy Pelling]

A 19th century murder.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yeah. And apparently the Irish servant kind of boiled down the lady she worked for and then took her drippings to the pub and like had people eat the drippings or whatever. We think that probably didn't happen. But they are selling.

[Kat Irving]

Yeah.

[Maddy Pelling]

I mean, they're not eating it.

[Kat Irving]

No, they're not eating it.

[Anthony Delaney]

No, no.

[Maddy Pelling]

But you wouldn't want to wash with it.

[Anthony Delaney]

I'd want that candle. Is that weird?

[Maddy Pelling]

Would you ever light it, though?

[Kat Irving]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, would you use it?

[Kat Irving]

It'd have a weird smell sitting on your shelf, I think. This wouldn't be like a. You know, this wouldn't be one to relax in your bath with.

[Anthony Delaney]

Is this not oud? No. We're not gonna, like, send this with it. Oh, that's grim. Only the French could do. Probably not only the French. That's probably other people did that too.

[Maddy Pelling]

But that is gonna get cancelled by the French.

[Kat Irving]

Well, I mean, if you think. Think of the film Fight Club, where in that they make soap out of human.

[Anthony Delaney]

I've never seen it.

[Kat Irving]

Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

Okay.

[Kat Irving]

Yeah. So, I mean, that's one of the things that's slowing this whole process down to begin with.

[Anthony Delaney]

They're too busy making candles and soap.

[Kat Irving]

Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

That is so bougie. It's like a cottage industry during the revolution. They're just like influencers starting their own soap.

[Kat Irving]

Bougie is the French word for candle.

[Maddy Pelling]

There we go. It's come full circle. Can you imagine the unboxing? Hi, guys. Come with me while I unbox granddad from his crib.

[Anthony Delaney]

Bougie is the French wor. I have never made that connection in my entire life. My life has been changed.

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[Maddy Pelling]

Some.

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[Maddy Pelling]

So we've got these bodies coming out of the ground. Some are nice clean bones. Some have even been put in an OS before and they are just transported down. Easy peasy. We've then got got the candle people who are being processed in a slightly different way. The bones that are making it down into the catacomb, they do start as you mentioned, particularly after the turn of the 19th century, to be arranged in a more aesthetic way or a way that has some semblance of order to it. People aren't just being dropped down big shafts. Anthony, I'm going to make you describe.

[Kat Irving]

A picture now for sure.

[Maddy Pelling]

Off you go.

[Anthony Delaney]

Right, Kat, you probably are familiar with this. It's a room in the catacombs, I presume that has a cross in the back middle of the room. So if we're looking at it like there, then on the wall behind it is. I don't know what kind of bones they are. Like it looks like some kind of long leg bone potentially. But it's head into the wall. There is no head because it's a leg bone or whatever, an arm bone, long bone. But then there's like.

[Maddy Pelling]

That's why Anthony's not an anatomist.

[Anthony Delaney]

Yes. Then there's like skulls in waves around the wall and then there's like a skull lining around the bottom. So it's basically like, you know, Those grottoes in the ancient shell grotto. I hate shell grottoes.

[Maddy Pelling]

Love a shell grotto.

[Anthony Delaney]

Also hate this. I don't like it. And it's not because I'm squeamish, because if these were just bodies displayed in kind of the way they are in Italy or whatever, that has its own ghostliness to it. But this, to me, seems. I don't know, I just don't like this. It's not necessarily a moral thing. I think it might just be an aesthetic thing. But it seems.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, it's aesthetic, it's artistic, it's architectural, almost that it's. You describe it as a room in the catacombs, and those are the walls of a room. It's almost like a temple that's been built with bones. My question, Kat, is who is this for? Because are these bones being arranged in an aesthetic way to honor the dead? Does this have religious meaning? Is this for the new tourists that are coming in? What's going on here? Because this is quite a change from the disposal of bodies into mass graves with very little care, especially the poorer people of Paris. And suddenly we're still seeing them en masse, arranged together, but in a very different way. And it's a way that's very deliberately done.

[Kat Irving]

Yeah, well, as I said, there are ossaries where bones are being stored across Europe. And you see this quite a lot in the 18th century. You see a lot of these ossuaries starting to do something a bit more aesthetic with the bones. You know, you will still see. There are many places that I go to where you do just have pure stacks. You know, this is a practical storage solution. It's nothing else. But you start to see a lot more places. You will see it in Milan, you will see it in Evora in Portugal. There's quite a lot of them in Portugal. And in the 18th century, they start to do these kind of very decorative arrangements, sometimes putting them into crosses, sometimes making them into architectural elements, where you'll get, like, skull cornicing, things like that. And it will have its sort of, you know, its pinnacle with the Capuchin crypt in Rome, where they have chandeliers made out of bones and entire scenes. And then later on, a bone chandelier.

[Maddy Pelling]

That would look nice with your dead person candle. Very bougie.

[Kat Irving]

You know, later on you will get Sedleck, you know, the second most visited officer in the world, which is in the Czech Republic, where they have an even bigger bone chandelier and these amazing stacks. And there was a purpose behind it. There was an idea of kind of remembering the dead, but also the idea of remembering that you will die. So this was to remind you that this is something that's gonna come to you as well. So, I mean, in the Austria Navora in Portugal, over the doorway, they have a sign which the translation basically says, we bones that are here, we're waiting for yours.

[Maddy Pelling]

Cheery bit on the nose.

[Kat Irving]

Yeah. And this comes out of an older idea, you know, that kind of dates back to sort of medieval times. You know, you would get the three living and the three dead. So it's again reminding you that you will die. You will get the dance of death, the danse macabre. And in fact, the first visual represent of the dance macabre is along the walls of those charnels at the side of the Holy Innocent cemetery. And the dance of death. If you've never seen a dance of death, they're often amazing. You have a figure representing death who's often quite skeletal or decaying, and he'll be leading off a living person. And they're usually shown with everyone, you know, from the Pope and the King down to the peasants. This is reminding you that death is coming to everyone.

[Maddy Pelling]

And that, of course, you know, we're thinking about this in Paris in. Is being created during the French Revolution, and there's that collapse of hierarchy and the collapse of the world order as people know it. Do you think that something that they would have understood going into the catacomb, would that have been something on people's minds that death is the great leveler, as it were?

[Kat Irving]

Yeah. This idea of death as the great leveler was very, very, very important at that time and was ideas that were feeding into the revolutionary spirit, you know, the egality. But this is not. This reminding people that they're gonna die isn't from. You know, I think today, like, if you or I were think lines, you would be kind of thinking, well, that means, you know, I've got these bucket list things that I want to do. You know, that sort of idea, the kind of going back to the sort of Roman carpe diem. But in that very Catholic mindset, this was not what it was about. This was about reminding you that you're going to die because you damn well have to live a really, really good life.

[Anthony Delaney]

I think I did. I must have missed the carpe diem thing and just gone straight to the panic.

[Kat Irving]

Yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

Better be good.

[Kat Irving]

Yeah. Well, that's it. There was no carpe diem for the Catholic. It was. You must be Good. And you must follow the Bible, because it's not now. It's about what's coming in the next life. You'll get your heavenly rewards.

[Maddy Pelling]

And if you do seize the date, you should feel bloody guilty about it.

[Kat Irving]

Yes. Yeah. So in a lot of these kind of decorative ossuaries, they were meant to be places where you would contemplate that kind of idea and where you could pray, you know, designated spaces to pray for the souls in purgatory.

[Maddy Pelling]

Do people take issue in this period with the anonymizing of the bodies? Because bearing in mind they're already going into mass graves and then they don't have the individual grave markers like we see in the 19th century, in the Victorian era. Is there a sense that something is being lost here, that humanity is being lost, that personhood is being lost in these arrangements, that everyone just becomes a heap of bones that is indistinguishable from its neighbour. Is that a problem or are people just used to it?

[Kat Irving]

It doesn't seem to be a problem. There seems to be that kind of the sort of hyper individualism that we're used to today seems to be a later idea. And there does seem to be an acceptance that there is sort of an illimization death. The really, really interesting. One of the most lovely ossuaries that I've been to is in a place called Hallstatt, which is on. It's in the Alps, it's in Austria. And there they have the skulls. They were lined up and they started doing a thing where they want to try and keep, you know, the skulls near the. Your relatives. You know, they knew they had to be dug up because this was a little town that's sandwiched between a big lake and a mountain. So they have very limited room. So after 15 years, they dig you up and they put you in the Bine house. But so that your remains, your skull could remain with your fat, they started to paint them. You know, they would put names on. They've got beautiful flowers or laurel leaves, things like that, to indicate valor.

[Maddy Pelling]

Love that idea.

[Kat Irving]

This is what I would like to have done with my skull. And so that, you know, there you're still getting this idea of the ossuary, but you're not getting that anonymization. But there does seem to be this sort of idea that, yes, we have to accept that we are all the same in death. And you even get these things called transitombs, which are like the world's biggest humble brag, where people will always. Very rich men, because these were very, very expensive. They will have these tombs where they will be depicting themselves in the most abject state of decay. You know, some of them, you've got worms and frogs crawling out.

[Maddy Pelling]

These are like sculptures.

[Kat Irving]

These are sculptures often stone. There are a couple of sort of like painted wood ones. But as I say, to get that done in stone, you know, you've got to have an awful lot of money. But this is saying, oh, look at me. I'm depicting myself in this way, you know, because I know that my earthly life is not important.

[Anthony Delaney]

But, yes, I'm rich enough.

[Kat Irving]

Look at how rich I am.

[Anthony Delaney]

Let's go back to Paris then, for a second and just we've talked about the origins and how it came about. When does work complete on the catacombs in Paris, and how are they kind of viewed at the time, once all of that comes to and they have a complete thing. Is this now just a tourist trap? What exactly does it mean once it's complete?

[Kat Irving]

That's really interesting because once it's complete, you do get people coming along. It's open, not every day, but, you know, regularly that people can come down and see, you know, this idea again, the memento, more idea, reminding people that are going to die. You get famous people, you know, like, you get emperors coming along to go down. So it's not seen as being particularly out there at the time in France. It's really interesting when you see things that have been produced in Britain at that time where they're just like, look at those weird Catholics. There's a wonderful. A Dance of Death. There's an English Dance of Death produced. And again, it shows the skeleton, and he's leading a tour group down into the Paris catacombs. It's an amazing illustration from 1815, but it's got a little verse with it, and it shows that they're kind of going, yeah, this is odd. And there's a number of things in British publications of that time which are just like, those people over there are doing really, really strange things with the dead.

[Anthony Delaney]

Do you know what the weird thing about this is, what you've got me thinking? And we have a very kind of Catholic culture of the dead in Ireland still, where we will remain with the body that is open in the room.

[Maddy Pelling]

You guys are a lot more proximate to death than we are in England.

[Anthony Delaney]

And we have the wake, and it's also all done within a few days, like two, three days, and the body is buried. And you're talking about, oh, you know, this English idea, British Idea of going, oh, God, what are they doing in France? There's a very similar thing now to the way death is handled in Britain. In Ireland, where we go, why are you keeping those people above ground for so long after they've died? Like, cause over here it can be a few weeks or whatever. And we think that's a bit strange where it's like, where are they during that time? You can't be sitting with them for all the time. What's happening to your grieving process during that time? Do you have to go back and revisit the grief process? Whereas three days later we have buried them and we're still grieving, obviously, but it's a different process. It's just interesting to hear that that was seen as so strange. Whereas we constantly, even still now have that conversation.

[Kat Irving]

And that's. I mean, that's one of the things that I've been researching recently on a. For different reason, looking at ways people preserving the bodies. But I've been doing a lot of things looking at Italian documentation and comparing, like comparing what was going into British press and British letters about preserving the Italian revolutionary heroes in the 1860s. And that's kind of exactly the same thing where you're. You're getting these people going, but why are they doing it like that? We wouldn't do it like that.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yeah, I suppose as well with Britain of France, if we zoom out of the. The question of death as well, there's just huge anti French feeling in the 19th century following the Napoleonic wars as well. And so that might have been playing in.

[Anthony Delaney]

And Catholicism generally.

[Maddy Pelling]

Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolute.

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[Maddy Pelling]

Let's talk then, Kat, about the catacombs today, because we've been through their early history and their completion in the 19th century and those shifting attitudes, but what do they look like today under the modern city? What's their role within Paris's identity, French culture? How does that work?

[Kat Irving]

I mean, Today it's very much. It's a tourist destination. You know, it's still. It's one of the big tourist destinations in Paris. You know, if you want to go now, you know, you really need to book in advance. Turning up on. On the day might not get you in. So it does just have that kind of, you know, macabre tourist destination rule today. It's also got other ideas going on because, you know, I said there's a lot of tunnels down there. The bones only occupy a small portion of what's going on down there. You know, there's a whole range of places which aren't accessible to the public. So there are people who like to go down there and explore, you know, urban exploration.

[Anthony Delaney]

That's what you're seeing on TikTok, right? Just people saying, oh, have you been down, down? Are you going down? Are we going down tonight? Let's all go down together kind of a thing. And it's like, yeah, young people.

[Maddy Pelling]

There's something so tantalizing. It's like going down into the underworld, Right. It's a mysterious, unknown place.

[Anthony Delaney]

Parties down there too, right?

[Kat Irving]

Parties down there. They discovered a bar at one point that had been set up. And again, even that, you know, in the late 19th century they were having concerts down there. So, you know, it's these kind of things, you know, are, you know, there's nothing new under the sun, definitely, but there have been things which the bones, the deads, they don't bother me. But there are things that really, really chill me, you know, like there was a. In the 90s, someone went down there and found an old video camera which had a sort of Blair Witch type film on it of somebody who clearly lost their way. And you see them kind of panicking.

[Anthony Delaney]

Oh, wow, so that's real.

[Kat Irving]

Yeah. And even earlier, if we go back to 1793, there was a man called Philbert Aspert who was a door porter at one of the hospital and he got lost down there. They thought he was looking for wine or something like that. And he just has a single candle and that goes out. And then we don't know whether it.

[Maddy Pelling]

Was made from a person.

[Kat Irving]

We don't know whether it was made from a person. And then 11 years later, they find his body and he's identified by the hospital keys on his belt.

[Maddy Pelling]

There is nothing. There's no more French way to die than going to look for wine.

[Kat Irving]

That's the story, that he was going to look for wine. But, yeah, I hope he found the wine.

[Maddy Pelling]

I really hope he did, yeah.

[Anthony Delaney]

Is it true that there is a designated kind of police force for it, or is that just urbanism?

[Kat Irving]

I've heard there is a catacops who will shut up.

[Anthony Delaney]

This episode is bringing all the good catacrops.

[Kat Irving]

I cannot confirm justify to the truth of that, but that's what has been mentioned.

[Maddy Pelling]

It's funny, isn't it, that a place that is primarily its function, once the dead start to be stored there was to do with the afterlife, to do with sort of stillness and rest and, yes, living human interaction with that space, but very much sort of calm and quiet and into that void, all kinds of things have been imagined. And, you know, there's stories about, like, cannibals living down there, right? And all kinds of, you know, sort of imagined tales and urban legends and then these truths on top of that. But I wonder, as someone who spends time with human remains, thinking about how they are stored, how they're preserved, how they're treated with respect, what are your feelings on the catacombs now and the access that people have to them? Do you think it's important that we still acknowledge and interact with that part of history? Or do you think there are issues around some of that kind of dark tourism?

[Kat Irving]

That's a really interesting question because, I mean, after I. As you've probably guessed from everything I've said today, I love places like this. I mean, I. I'm endlessly fascinated by bones and what they can tell you about people. And I think there's something really quite amazing about the fact that you can go there and you can come face to face with these people who. Who died so long ago. And, I mean, that's the thing that, you know, I often get quite annoyed when you see sort of like on films or TV things and stuff like that. And you will see, like, a pile of skulls and they're all the same skull. You know, they've clearly just made a mold with lots and lots of skulls, because people think that skulls are all just the same.

[Anthony Delaney]

She says, clearly, I probably am not noticing any difference at all.

[Kat Irving]

But of course, if there are skulls around, I'm gonna notice. But they're not. You know, skulls are. You know, all our bones are as individual as we are. So you go there and you can see sort of what somebody's face might be like. You can often tell, you know, I mean, it's a spectrum, but whether or not they're male or female, roughly how old they are. You know, you can see those kind things, and we often can't Know more. You know, you might be able to tell if they had some diseases or trauma or things like that, but just getting to those little glimpses of people's.

[Maddy Pelling]

Lives coming face to face with someone who may have seen the revolution.

[Kat Irving]

Yes. Yeah. And even earlier, things like that, I just find it so very, very, very powerful. And, you know, I. I think our body, I think our anatomy is beautiful. And I kind of find spaces which are outside of the kind of museum that I work in and outside of, like the universities where they're used for. I find places where you can interact with the dead in a way that's almost honoring the beauty of our anatomy. Really, really quite powerful.

[Anthony Delaney]

Well, if you want to know more about this and Kat's work in particular, find her on anatomical cat. Right, that's your socials, but tell us where we can read a bit more. And there's also a podcast now. Surgeons Hall Museum has a podcast. Yeah, tell us about some of those places where people can explore a bit more of your work.

[Kat Irving]

Well, at Surgeon's hall, we have some human remains on display. Quite a lot of things on display. They range full skeletons to the appendix that somebody had removed or the foot that they had amputated. Because again, not all of our human remains at Surgeon's hall come from dead people. Because we're surgical museums. So some of them are those bits that you get chopped out when you go into hospital. We're using them to tell the story of how medicine and how surgery developed. So there are some really interesting stories and there some really, really sad stories, but some also stories where we get to see how these kind of things can actually make a positive impact on people's lives. Lives.

[Maddy Pelling]

I will be devouring that podcast. I'm very excited. Yeah, I absolutely will.

[Anthony Delaney]

Under the knife.

[Kat Irving]

Beyond the knife.

[Anthony Delaney]

Beyond the knife.

[Kat Irving]

There you go. So my issue of that podcast, I talk about the history of dissection and using dissection.

[Anthony Delaney]

It's a great museum. It's one of my favourite museums in Edinburgh. I'm not just saying that because you're here and I've been quite a few times. It's because it's framed within that history of anatomy as well and surgical history. It's doing a lot of work in a relatively small space. I mean, I know you, your kind of archives are huge actually, and we're only seeing a certain element of it on display.

[Maddy Pelling]

Thank you very much for listening to this episode. Do leave us a five star review wherever you can. If you have been listening to this podcast, you should know that you can also watch it on YouTube. Go to After Dark History. Hit YouTube to find us there and you can see old episodes and new ones coming out every single week. We're so excited.

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[Kat Irving]

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