Ireland's Darkest Folk Legends - After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal

Summary5 min read

After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal - Episode Summary

Episode Title: Ireland's Darkest Folk Legends
Release Date: April 14, 2025
Hosts: Anthony Delaney and Maddy Pelling
Guest: Cecily Gilligan, Author of Cures of Ireland: A Treasury of Irish Folk Remedies

Introduction to Irish Folklore and the Changelings

The episode delves deep into the eerie and tragic tale of Bridget Cleary, a woman accused of being a changeling in late 19th-century Ireland. Hosts Anthony Delaney and Maddy Pelling, alongside guest Cecily Gilligan, explore the dark intersections of folklore, societal beliefs, and personal tragedy.

Anthony Delaney sets the stage by quoting WB Yeats' The Stolen Child:
"Where dips the rocky highland of Sleuth Wood. In the lake there lies a leafy island..." (02:26), emphasizing the rich oral traditions that permeate Irish history.

The Tragic Case of Bridget Cleary

Bridget Cleary, a literate and accomplished dressmaker married to Michael Cleary, faced immense societal pressure due to infertility. Her deteriorating health led her family to suspect she was a changeling—a fairy impostor grasped from Irish folklore.

Cecily Gilligan explains the cultural backdrop:
"In Irish folklore, the tradition of the changeling has been very strong and has probably existed for thousands of years." (06:10). Bridget's family believed that fairies took her to sustain their lineage, leaving behind a weakened version of her. This belief culminated in a brutal exorcism where Bridget was force-fed and covered in urine, leading to her tragic death.

Anthony Delaney highlights the societal impact:
"Her husband was convinced she was a changeling, an evil fairy, and within 24 hours, he would kill Mrs. Bridget Cleary." (05:20).

Changelings in Irish Culture

Changelings, in Irish lore, are believed to be fairy replacements for humans, often taking children or young women to fulfill the fairies' own needs. Cecily Gilligan details how these beliefs provided explanations for unexplained illnesses and high mortality rates in impoverished rural communities.

Cecily Gilligan:
"The changeling was a way to understand or soften maybe the blow of people who were sick or people who died. Infant mortality was really high." (08:15).

Intersection of Folklore and Catholicism

The episode explores how pre-Christian beliefs in fairies coexisted and sometimes conflicted with the dominant Catholic faith in 19th-century Ireland.

Cecily Gilligan:
"They coexisted. People had this pre-Christian belief or this mythical belief of fairies, but they also had very strong belief in the Catholic Church and in God." (09:40).

The Catholic Church often Christianized pagan sites, such as holy wells, allowing both belief systems to persist side by side. However, tensions arose, especially concerning "wise women" who possessed traditional knowledge, leading to conflicts like the persecution of Bridget Cleary.

Cursing Stones and Rituals

A significant portion of the discussion centers on cursing stones—pre-Christian artifacts used for laying curses. Located in regions like Northern Cavan and Inishmary Island, these stones were integral to local rituals aimed at transferring bad luck or ailments onto others.

Cecily Gilligan describes one such site:
"There are about 50 stones of varying size... people would have walked three times around that particular altar and they would have lain their curse." (22:57).

These practices underscored the deep connection between the landscape and folklore, with rituals often involving specific movements and items to ensure the curse's effectiveness without backfiring on the caster.

Healing Remedies in Irish Tradition

Cecily Gilligan shares insights from her book, detailing various folk remedies that blend herbal knowledge with spiritual practices. These cures often involve rituals, prayers, and the use of natural ingredients to heal both the body and spirit.

Cecily Gilligan recalls a personal anecdote:
"As a child, I actually had jaundice. And my father went to the pulp, and he came home one night and he had a bottle that I had to drink. So it was a herbal cure for jaundice." (33:17).

Another notable remedy involves a ritual for heart problems using oatmeal and prayers, highlighting the holistic approach to healing that combines physical and spiritual elements.

Modern Relevance and Revival of Folklore

Despite the decline in traditional beliefs over the past century, Cecily Gilligan posits that folklore remains relevant in modern Ireland. There is a burgeoning interest in holistic healing and alternative therapies, which has allowed some folk practices to persist and even thrive.

Cecily Gilligan:
"I believe that the traditional Irish cures in the Irish context are part of that kind of broader, more holistic approach to healing." (36:37).

Additionally, the episode touches on the cyclical nature of folklore, where ancient practices resurface in contemporary contexts, reinforcing cultural identity and offering solace in an increasingly modern world.

Conclusion: The Enduring Legacy of Irish Folk Legends

The episode concludes by reaffirming the profound impact of folklore on Irish society and individual lives. The story of Bridget Cleary serves as a stark reminder of how deeply ingrained beliefs can lead to tragic outcomes. Yet, the enduring presence of folklore also offers a sense of identity and continuity, bridging past and present.

Anthony Delaney wraps up the discussion:
"It's one of those cases... it's still a very emotive case when her name comes up, and rightly so, because the inhumanity meted on her is actually unbelievable." (16:12).

Listeners are encouraged to explore Cecily Gilligan's Cures of Ireland and further episodes to gain a deeper understanding of the rich tapestry of Irish myths, legends, and their lasting influence.

Notable Quotes:

Anthony Delaney (02:26):
"So where dips the rocky highland of Sleuth Wood..."
— Introducing WB Yeats' The Stolen Child to highlight Ireland's rich oral traditions.
Cecily Gilligan (06:10):
"In Irish folklore, the tradition of the changeling has been very strong and has probably existed for thousands of years."
— Explaining the deep-rooted belief in changelings.
Anthony Delaney (05:20):
"As Anthony has explained, they sourced herbs from her, they beat her, they shout at her, they poured urine on her."
— Describing the brutality inflicted upon Bridget Cleary.
Cecily Gilligan (09:40):
"They coexisted. People had this pre-Christian belief or this mythical belief of fairies, but they also had very strong belief in the Catholic Church and in God."
— Discussing the coexistence of folklore and religion.
Cecily Gilligan (36:37):
"I believe that the traditional Irish cures in the Irish context are part of that kind of broader, more holistic approach to healing."
— Highlighting the modern relevance of folk remedies.

This episode of After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal offers an illuminating exploration of Ireland's darkest folk legends, intertwining historical events with rich folklore to provide listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the cultural forces that shaped tragic narratives like that of Bridget Cleary.

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Transcript337 lines

[00:00]
Anthony Delaney
Hi, we're your hosts Anthony Delaney and Maddy Pelling, and if you would like After Dark Myths, Misdeeds and the Paranormal ad free and get early access, Sign.
[00:10]
Maddy Pelling
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[00:21]
Anthony Delaney
Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe.
[00:27]
Cecily Gilligan
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[01:18]
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[02:27]
Anthony Delaney
Where dips the rocky highland of Sleuth Wood. In the lake there lies a leafy island where flapping herons wake the drowsy water rats. There we've hid our fairy vats full of berries and of reddest stolen cherries. Come away, O human child, to the waters and the wild with a fairy hand in hand for the world's more full of Weeping than you can understand. So begins WB Yeats famous poem, the Stolen Child, an ode to the oral tradition of the changeling whose stories have been passed down through generations in Ireland, something Bridget Boland, or Bridget Cleary, to use her married name, knew all too well. Bridget had always stood out. At the end of the 19th century, she was a woman of means. She was literate and an accomplished dressmaker. However, after eight years of marriage to Mr. Michael Cleary, the couple had not yet conceived a child. In this perceived absence, Bridget's family grew suspicious and it wasn't long until they began to cast about for someone or something to blame. Soon, Bridget's family believed they found the culprits. The Tuathed Dannan. The fairy folk beliefs amongst some in rural Irish communities dictated that fairies or changelings often swapped themselves with young women because they had trouble producing children on their own, so a mortal woman could be taken to further their family line. Brigid, her family believed, was one such changeling. Her husband was convinced of it and her family turned violently against her. What followed was a violent, inhumane exorcism of sorts, which included force feeding Bridget grotesque concoctions and covering her in urine. Are you Bridget Boland, the wife of Michael Cleary? In the name of God, Michael, her husband cried while her family restrained her. She replied in God's name that she was. Michael, however, remained unconvinced. His belief that she was a changeling, an evil fairy prevailed, and within 24 hours, he would kill Mrs. Bridget Cleary.
[05:21]
Maddy Pelling
Hello and welcome to this episode of After Dark. I'm Maddie.
[05:25]
Anthony Delaney
And I'm Anthony.
[05:26]
Maddy Pelling
And you just heard there a snippet from a story of a changeling murder in 1895. It's a dark and fascinating history and one that I have a little bit of an inkling about, but don't know much more besides that. Now, our guest to remedy that today is Cecily Gilligan. She's the author of Cures of A Treasury of Irish Folk Remedies. Cecily, welcome to After Dark.
[05:49]
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Thank you.
[05:49]
Cecily Gilligan
Maddie and Anthony, thank you for having.
[05:51]
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Me on your episode.
[05:53]
Maddy Pelling
You're very welcome. Now let's get straight into it and talk about what exactly changelings are, because I have a feeling from my limited knowledge of them that in Irish folklore they have quite a specific function and specific characteristics. So what is a changeling in Irish culture?
[06:11]
Cecily Gilligan
So in Irish folklore, the tradition of the changeling has been very strong and has probably existed for thousands of years.
[06:18]
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And it's basically the belief that a human is.
[06:21]
Cecily Gilligan
Is stolen or is taken by the fairies. And when we say taken, I mean people would have believed that the fairies took the human and they brought them into the fairy fort. We have thousands of fairy forts.
[06:33]
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You know them as ring forts across Ireland.
[06:35]
Cecily Gilligan
And there were the fairy people, we believe live. So that was a very strong belief.
[06:40]
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That the person was taken and then.
[06:41]
Cecily Gilligan
They were brought to the fairy fort.
[06:43]
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But they didn't just leave a vacuum.
[06:46]
Cecily Gilligan
The human was left behind, but it.
[06:48]
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Was a weak fairy version of the real human. So, for example, if they took your.
[06:53]
Cecily Gilligan
Baby, it looked like your baby, but.
[06:55]
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Rather than being the bonnie, healthy baby that you had, it was suddenly this sick, unwell child that was failing and could potentially die. And the fairies were very well known for, in particular, as you mentioned, taking babies and children.
[07:10]
Cecily Gilligan
The fairy women were believed to be unable to have healthy babies or to.
[07:14]
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Suckle them, to nurse them, so they would steal, maybe young women to breastfeed them.
[07:20]
Cecily Gilligan
They also were always interested in other.
[07:22]
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Healthy little human babies are young children. And on the Aran Islands, for example.
[07:28]
Cecily Gilligan
For many years into the. Even into the early 1900s, the fairies were believed to be more interested in boy children. The boy children were dressed as girls.
[07:37]
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They would have worn a dress, and.
[07:39]
Cecily Gilligan
They tried to fool the fairies that was a girl, and the child was.
[07:42]
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More protected in that way. Again, they took the women, and sometimes.
[07:46]
Cecily Gilligan
I think Anthony said, in relation to.
[07:48]
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A fairy bride, and sometimes they took men less so, especially if they were musicians, the fairies well known for loving.
[07:56]
Cecily Gilligan
Music and dance and banqueting, and a good musician would be a target potentially.
[08:01]
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But I suppose if we look at.
[08:03]
Cecily Gilligan
It, that was the folklore, the tradition.
[08:05]
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But the reality of the situation. So we're talking, say, 1800s, quite recent.
[08:09]
Cecily Gilligan
History, and late 1800s. Bridget Cleary's event was 1895.
[08:15]
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So Ireland was a very poor country.
[08:18]
Cecily Gilligan
We were a peasant country. People had very, very little. There was no medical care. So in a way, the changeling was a way to understand or soften maybe the blow of people who were sick or people who died. Infant mortality was really high. Maternal mortality. There was no childhood vaccinations.
[08:37]
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Malnutrition.
[08:38]
Cecily Gilligan
TB was widespread. So when people started to wane or to lose their good health, maybe a.
[08:44]
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Beautiful young woman, and she started to.
[08:46]
Cecily Gilligan
Lose her health, possibly because of tb.
[08:48]
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Brigitte probably had pneumonia, it is thought.
[08:52]
Cecily Gilligan
But when they started to fade, the.
[08:53]
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People said, oh, the fairies have taken.
[08:55]
Cecily Gilligan
Her and they've left the changeling behind, and they would have to try and.
[08:59]
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Drive the changeling out.
[09:01]
Anthony Delaney
Cecily, the other thing that struck me as I was preparing for this episode. And obviously I'm aware of this history, Brigid's history, and then I'm also aware of the folklore adjacent to it. But one of the things that struck me immediately was the ways in which, in this case, in Bridget's case, particularly, the ways in which religion intersect organized religion, Catholic religion in this case intersects with these folkloric beliefs in this particular moment in time, in the late 18th century, early 19th century in Ireland. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Because I don't know much about that relationship. How these two things sit side by side, I'm imagining uncomfortably, but that might not necessarily be the case.
[09:41]
Cecily Gilligan
Well, the Catholic Church was hugely powerful in Irish society in the 19th century.
[09:46]
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And into the 20th century, and it dominated all of life. And so it's actually interesting because the.
[09:53]
Cecily Gilligan
Christian and the pre Christian beliefs sort.
[09:55]
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Of were side by side.
[09:57]
Cecily Gilligan
They coexisted. So people had this pre Christian belief or this mythical belief of fairies, but they also had very strong belief in the Catholic Church and in the God.
[10:06]
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So sometimes there was animosity and difficulties there. And sometimes, then you see it very.
[10:12]
Cecily Gilligan
Clearly in the holy wells.
[10:14]
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The holy wells were pre Christian, but they were Christianized. And the Church was very aware that.
[10:19]
Cecily Gilligan
The best way to go about this was to sort of let everybody mosey along together. The two approaches coexist. But sometimes conflict did exist, for example, in relation to wise women and persecution of wise women. So in the past, my book and what I've researched was the traditional cures.
[10:36]
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In Ireland, the ones that continue to.
[10:39]
Cecily Gilligan
Survive, but they've come from a very old tradition, you know, hundreds, thousands of years old.
[10:44]
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And the wise women.
[10:46]
Cecily Gilligan
There was wise women in every community or people who had knowledge, often a woman. They had a lot of knowledge of.
[10:52]
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Cures and of the plants to use and midwives. They would have helped women with childbirth.
[10:59]
Cecily Gilligan
Sometimes they coexist with the church, and then sometimes the church. We didn't have witchcraft in Ireland or witch trials that existed in other parts of Europe. But sometimes the church stood up to.
[11:08]
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These women and thought that their knowledge.
[11:10]
Cecily Gilligan
Was coming from a difficult source or a bad source. So conflict would have existed there.
[11:15]
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And one of the most famous wise women we would have had in the.
[11:18]
Cecily Gilligan
1800S in Ireland was Biddy Earley in.
[11:21]
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East Clare, very well known for decades.
[11:24]
Cecily Gilligan
Thousands of people were coming to her. The rich and famous, the poor and the penniless.
[11:28]
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Everybody went to.
[11:29]
Cecily Gilligan
And she would have believed to have got her knowledge from the fairies. And she also had huge Herbal knowledge that she would have required from her mother and within her community.
[11:38]
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But the Catholic Church was not fond of her and they were not happy with her.
[11:41]
Cecily Gilligan
She would have been excommunicated from the Church and she would have been denounced from the public, but it didn't deter the people because the people kept coming to her.
[11:49]
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She was supposed to have spent time with the fairies. She had a special bottle that she.
[11:54]
Cecily Gilligan
Could see the future in and she could diagnose illness.
[11:57]
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And there's a story that on her deathbed in the late 1800, a priest.
[12:02]
Cecily Gilligan
Came to her house and he took the bottle, the magic bottle, and he threw it into the lake below her.
[12:07]
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House, below her cottage. And it's never been recovered.
[12:11]
Cecily Gilligan
And people are looking for it ever since.
[12:14]
Maddy Pelling
The balance between patriarchal society through the centuries, and particularly thinking here about Ireland in the 19th century and folk tradition, which often incorporates ideas of female power within it to varying extents, that balance is so interesting to me, and the ways in which they are allowed to coexist and those moments, as you say, of tension or friction. And so often, I think when we talk about folklore and folk tales, we maybe imagine something that's quite light, that's quite vague, that is potentially fun and mischievous and something to be sort of indulged in from our modern perspective. But actually, in so much of this history, where folklore exists in the past, alongside people living their lives under institutional control and societal organisation, that these ideas, these folkloric ideas, can turn people's behaviour into quite sinister avenues. And actually, there is a lot of darkness here, as well as a lot of lightness. And I want to come back to the case in particular of Bridget Cleary and to talk about what happens to her, because it is a really brutal end for a woman who is suspected of being a changeling. And I suppose it shows the tangibility of these beliefs, the effect that they can have and the outcome in some cases that they can have. And it's incredibly dark, isn't it? So what happens to Brigid?
[13:42]
Cecily Gilligan
So what happened to Brigid was. Yeah, as Anthony has explained, she became sick. There was difficulties existed that she was in a childless marriage. And in those days in Ireland, that was almost a shameful thing.
[13:54]
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And I suppose the blame probably was.
[13:56]
Cecily Gilligan
Automatically put on to Bridget for her infertility. Her husband wasn't questioned, so that existed.
[14:02]
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And that was a complication or a.
[14:03]
Cecily Gilligan
Difficulty within the family, within the marriage.
[14:06]
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And then she became sick, most likely with pneumonia. And then it was a number of days.
[14:11]
Cecily Gilligan
Her condition deteriorated.
[14:13]
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But I suppose as Anthony was saying, there she possibly was.
[14:17]
Cecily Gilligan
This was a kind of a route or a scapegoat, a way to justify.
[14:21]
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What happened to her.
[14:23]
Cecily Gilligan
So she was ultimately, she was tortured by our family and her whole family apparently colluded in it because there was a trial.
[14:30]
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But it was primarily her husband.
[14:32]
Cecily Gilligan
So as Anthony had said, they sourced herbs from her, from the local herb doctor. They beat her, they shout at her, they poured urine on her. These were all things that was thought would drive the fairy out of the body and then the real woman would come back.
[14:49]
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Her husband said that she told him, go to the ferry fort, you know.
[14:52]
Cecily Gilligan
On a moonlit night, and I'll ride.
[14:54]
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Out of the ferry fort on a white horse. So these were quite common beliefs.
[14:58]
Cecily Gilligan
And it was part probably a mixture of maybe him actually genuinely believing this.
[15:02]
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And also unhappiness in his marriage. But ultimately he set.
[15:07]
Cecily Gilligan
So it was very brutal because he.
[15:09]
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Set the woman on fire.
[15:10]
Cecily Gilligan
She was very sick woman.
[15:11]
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And within a few days he actually set her on fire because fire was.
[15:15]
Cecily Gilligan
Recognized as one of the ways to deter fairies. A ring of fire. You might put a ring of fire.
[15:20]
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Around a baby or iron was another thing people could deter fairies with. He put iron tongs across the baby's cradle.
[15:28]
Cecily Gilligan
Holy water.
[15:29]
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We talked about the coexistence of, of the pre Christian.
[15:32]
Cecily Gilligan
The Christian people used holy water, which.
[15:34]
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Is obviously a Christian symbol, to protect.
[15:36]
Cecily Gilligan
People from being taken as changelings.
[15:39]
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But in Bridger's case, ultimately it was too late and she was set on.
[15:43]
Cecily Gilligan
Fire primarily by her husband and she died as a result of that.
[15:48]
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And then she was buried in a.
[15:49]
Cecily Gilligan
Shallow grave to the rear of the farm. As my understanding, it happened at Tipperary in the south of Ireland.
[15:55]
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But people knew she was missing and there was follow up. And it subsequently led to arrests and.
[16:01]
Cecily Gilligan
To a court case.
[16:03]
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I think nine people were tried for.
[16:05]
Cecily Gilligan
The event of different charges. Her husband had been charged with murder, but he ultimately was convicted of manslaughter.
[16:13]
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And he served 15 years. I understand he disappeared to Canada.
[16:18]
Cecily Gilligan
So no doubt there are descendants of.
[16:20]
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This man somewhere in Canada. And if anybody would like to know more about this particular case, Angela Burke has written a really interesting book detailing the case.
[16:30]
Anthony Delaney
It's one of those cases, isn't it, Cecily, that has kind of marked itself in the Irish psyche to a great extent. We live with it in a, I suppose, a very present tense sense in many ways. A lot of people know who Bridget Cleary is. They know what her name evokes, and it's still a very emotive case when her name comes up, and rightly so, because the inhumanity meted on her is actually unbelievable. But if we take a step back for a second and your book is called Cures of Ireland, I'm just intrigued as to what some of the. We may not know the definite ones, but just from your own knowledge, what kind of cures were people trying to use to heal people from fairy possession or from these kind of folkloric illnesses? I suppose. Was there a set thing that people were after? You mentioned Joran there, but was there other things that people used specifically in these cases?
[17:24]
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Well, I think the fire and the iron, and I think in many cases, disease or illness or death were inexplicable.
[17:31]
Cecily Gilligan
So a lot of things got laid down to supernatural activities, in particular, the fairies. So I think what people did was they consulted with the herbal women, the.
[17:40]
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Wise women, the people with that specialist knowledge in their communities, or they might.
[17:44]
Cecily Gilligan
Actually, in many cases, they also would have consulted a clergy.
[17:47]
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The priests. This is in the 18th century, going into the 20th century, priests would believe.
[17:52]
Cecily Gilligan
To have curing powers, protective powers and healing powers, and probably, probably very much in relation to mental illness, things people couldn't understand. But in general, what I found and.
[18:02]
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What has survived is the herbal cures.
[18:04]
Cecily Gilligan
Have survived to an extent, although we've lost a lot of our herbal knowledge. But also faith cures are very important and continue to be very important in.
[18:12]
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The Irish folk healing tradition.
[18:14]
Cecily Gilligan
And by that I mean the recitation of prayers and the laying on of.
[18:18]
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Hands and various combinations.
[18:21]
Cecily Gilligan
And all these cures involved lots of.
[18:23]
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Ritual, so different ways in which people would have dealt with the fairies. But until Even maybe, say, 50 years ago, the belief in fairies and the.
[18:34]
Cecily Gilligan
Presence of fairies in the Irish countryside has been very strong and very powerful.
[18:39]
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And actually, it's been very positive in that it's actually protected. Our ring forts are all national monuments.
[18:45]
Cecily Gilligan
And people in the past and even today continue to be very wary of touching a ring fort. You would never bring in a bulldozer and damage a ring fort because, you know, you're guaranteed to have bad luck come upon yourself. The bad luck could be death or illness or a terrible accident. The same would have applied to fairy trees.
[19:04]
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So people gave them a wide berth. That's often a fairy tree. That's an isolated hawthorn, for example, and people would never touch them. And even as recent as about 1999.
[19:15]
Cecily Gilligan
In County Clare, not very far from.
[19:17]
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Shannon Airport, there was a new dual carriageway, a large road being constructed, and a fairy tree hawthorn tree had to.
[19:27]
Cecily Gilligan
Be removed as part of this construction.
[19:29]
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But a folklorist said, you know you can't do that.
[19:32]
Cecily Gilligan
You'll bring the wrath of the fairies.
[19:33]
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Down on the highway and on the people. So the highway, the road was actually diverted by Clare County Council, which is quite incredible. So that's like only 25 years ago. So the belief in the fairies still exists and it's still out there.
[20:02]
Cecily Gilligan
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[22:34]
Maddy Pelling
Something that comes up again and again in our conversations about folklore is that interesting relationship between storytelling and the landscape. And I suppose the way that we allow our imaginations to populate those spaces and to bring them to life. And I want to talk about another aspect of Irish landscape and folklore and the ways they intersect, and that's the cursing stones. Cecily, can you tell us something about them? What are they?
[22:58]
Cecily Gilligan
Okay, so yes, I would have investigated a number of stones that are used today primarily for healing. So we call them often they're called balon stones. Balon is an Irish word and it means a stone that has a hollow carved out of it, often a cup shaped hollow.
[23:14]
Sleep Number Ad
And then sometimes another stone is placed very snugly into that, if you can imagine, like an egg cup and an egg. So they're across Ireland and many of.
[23:23]
Cecily Gilligan
Them are used for healing.
[23:24]
Sleep Number Ad
For example, there's one not too far.
[23:26]
Cecily Gilligan
From me where I am in Sligo, Northwest Ireland.
[23:29]
Sleep Number Ad
The water that collects in it would.
[23:30]
Cecily Gilligan
Be used as a cure for warts. So you go there, you rub the.
[23:34]
Sleep Number Ad
Water from the stone and you rub it onto your. Also, many of them were used for eye problems.
[23:40]
Cecily Gilligan
But I came across some cursing stones.
[23:42]
Sleep Number Ad
And they've never been known for healing, for curing, only for cursing.
[23:47]
Cecily Gilligan
So there's quite well known cursing stones.
[23:49]
Sleep Number Ad
And they're in Northern Cavan, which is right on the border with Northern Ireland and County Fermanagh, beside Loch Macnane.
[23:57]
Cecily Gilligan
And basically these stones are known as Saint Brigid. So again, it's that mixture of. They're definitely pre Christian, but St. Bridger's is obviously Christian.
[24:05]
Sleep Number Ad
And there's a ruined church in a field, and then you walk through the fields behind the church and in the corner of the field there's this set of stones. And it would be a large flat.
[24:18]
Cecily Gilligan
Stone, a low stone.
[24:20]
Sleep Number Ad
So when I went to see it.
[24:22]
Cecily Gilligan
The low stone, and on it there were 10 stones. So it's very deliberately placed there. Very, very old one central round, like.
[24:30]
Sleep Number Ad
A big egg shaped stone or a.
[24:32]
Cecily Gilligan
Stone you would get from the beach.
[24:34]
Sleep Number Ad
And we're very far from the beach here in Knotkavit. And then there was nine circular stones around that, nine balloon stones, again, the.
[24:42]
Cecily Gilligan
Cup shape with a perfectly fitting round stone within them. So those 10 stones are placed on.
[24:48]
Sleep Number Ad
One rock and then adjacent to that.
[24:51]
Cecily Gilligan
There was two lower rocks with a further five stones.
[24:54]
Sleep Number Ad
But I consulted with a man, a.
[24:56]
Cecily Gilligan
Historian who lived local to there, and he said the stones have always been kerseen stones and he never knew them.
[25:02]
Sleep Number Ad
To be used for healing stones and then to lay the curse, basically.
[25:06]
Cecily Gilligan
I'm not quite sure the ritual, but.
[25:08]
Sleep Number Ad
You would turn the stones and you.
[25:10]
Cecily Gilligan
Would lay your curse.
[25:11]
Sleep Number Ad
But it is always said that you.
[25:13]
Cecily Gilligan
Need to be very careful when you lay your curse.
[25:15]
Sleep Number Ad
You curse somebody because if it's unwarranted, if it's not valid, if it's ill gotten, if they don't deserve it, I suppose basically it will come back upon you.
[25:24]
Cecily Gilligan
So you be very careful. And then another place where there are curses, once again, not too far away, there's an island, Inishmary island, off the coast of Sligo here in northwest Ireland. There's an early Christian settlement there. There was a monastery there, now ruined. They have very famous cursing stones there as well. So when you go to the island and to the ruined monastery, there was an outdoor altar. And on the altar there are about 50 stones of varying size, but again, mainly circular stones, some would be inscribed.
[25:56]
Sleep Number Ad
With crosses or circles. And how the ritual was, how you laid the curse was people would also use the same ritual for good, like.
[26:05]
Cecily Gilligan
As in a form of pilgrimage. So they would walk the route and maybe walk three times around that particular altar.
[26:11]
Sleep Number Ad
And you always walked sunrise, you always walked clockwise. But to lay the curse, which people.
[26:17]
Cecily Gilligan
Did very rarely, but when they did.
[26:19]
Sleep Number Ad
It, you walked against the sun, you walked anti clockwise.
[26:22]
Cecily Gilligan
So you would have walked three times around the altar and you would have lain your curse.
[26:27]
Sleep Number Ad
But again, the proviso was be careful what you wish for, because if it's not deserved, it will haunt you rather.
[26:35]
Cecily Gilligan
Than the other person. So very interesting, the cursing stones.
[26:38]
Anthony Delaney
And so many of these things, Cecily, are linked to fairy or fairy beliefs. For people who might not be as familiar, can you draw us a picture of how important the fairy folk are or were, I suppose, in Irish mythology and folklore, but also how important they were and those beliefs were in forming a sense of Irish identity throughout the centuries?
[27:05]
Sleep Number Ad
Yeah, the fairies have been in the past very dominant in Ireland, and especially in rural Ireland. They've dominated much of life and like.
[27:15]
Cecily Gilligan
I said, you know, they dominated farming.
[27:17]
Sleep Number Ad
They dominated belief and activity.
[27:20]
Cecily Gilligan
Obviously, we're a more modernized society and.
[27:22]
Sleep Number Ad
Lots of external influences, so the connection.
[27:25]
Cecily Gilligan
To the fairies has waned, although I'm sure they're still out there.
[27:28]
Sleep Number Ad
If you want to look for the them. But as you said, Anthony, the fairies.
[27:32]
Cecily Gilligan
Are believed to the people, the Tuathe Danan. So they were an ancient, mythical, magical.
[27:38]
Sleep Number Ad
Race of people that lived and ruled.
[27:39]
Cecily Gilligan
Ireland long, long time ago.
[27:42]
Sleep Number Ad
And when the Milesians came to Ireland.
[27:44]
Cecily Gilligan
Another tribe, they invaded Ireland, battle took.
[27:47]
Sleep Number Ad
Place, and the Tuatha de Danan lost their supremacy of Ireland, and they opted to go into the fairy forts, into.
[27:54]
Cecily Gilligan
The ring forts, and to live there.
[27:56]
Sleep Number Ad
So ever since that time, they've had a very powerful effect and been very close to the people and in all the activities of the people.
[28:05]
Cecily Gilligan
For example, I know if somebody wanted.
[28:07]
Sleep Number Ad
To build a house, could potentially be on a fairy path, so what they.
[28:12]
Cecily Gilligan
Would have done is they would have laid out stones where they potentially were.
[28:15]
Sleep Number Ad
Going to put the house, like a very early form of planning permission, and then you would leave them there for a few days. And if the fairies were unhappy with.
[28:23]
Cecily Gilligan
Where you wanted to place your house.
[28:24]
Sleep Number Ad
Or if it was only a fairy.
[28:25]
Cecily Gilligan
Path, the stones would be moved, and then you knew you had to move your house also. It's less so now, the fairies, but they have been a very dominant force in Irish society.
[28:36]
Sleep Number Ad
And that thing about, for example, the leprechaun. So the leprechaun was a character in Irish folklore, but it was definitely lesser known. And it could be that we had an old God.
[28:49]
Cecily Gilligan
His name was Lou, the God of the sun.
[28:52]
Sleep Number Ad
And with the coming of Christianity, Lou.
[28:54]
Cecily Gilligan
And all the gods and the goddesses lost their power, basically.
[28:58]
Sleep Number Ad
So some people might say that Lugh was demonized and made small and ridiculed, and he's now what's known as the.
[29:05]
Cecily Gilligan
Leprechaun, Lou Curban, the little Lugh of the little body.
[29:09]
Sleep Number Ad
So that's an interesting take of it.
[29:11]
Cecily Gilligan
When I was growing up, the fairies and the folklore, the banshee, the fairy woman, were all very strong presences in Irish society.
[29:19]
Sleep Number Ad
And you have to think like rural.
[29:21]
Cecily Gilligan
Electrification came to Ireland in the 1930s, so some people didn't have electricity. They still lived their lives with the season and getting up and going to.
[29:30]
Sleep Number Ad
Bed with dawn and dusk and candles.
[29:33]
Cecily Gilligan
Until even the 40s and into the 50s. So you can imagine those situations, ghosts and banshees and fairies still were very strong and still dominated the life of the people.
[29:44]
Maddy Pelling
I love, Cecily, the way that you talk about these intersections, this interwovenness of folklore and history and how, I suppose, the stories that we might tell about a particular landscape or a particular belief rise up according to what's happening in society at that moment. And then you know, sometimes die away based on other events and come back again. How it is kind of cyclical. And I'm curious, when you're talking about the stones for curing and for cursing, have you come across evidence of how far back these practices go? Do you have a sense of who was using the stones at various points in history? Are you able to trace it through the centuries? Or is this sort of oral history that's been passed down a little bit more in terms of oral history telling?
[30:28]
Sleep Number Ad
No, definitely the oral tradition is what's.
[30:31]
Cecily Gilligan
Strong in Ireland and what has survived and all the cures and all the.
[30:34]
Sleep Number Ad
Stories and the music has all been passed on orally. So very little was written down. So it's very hard to know how long.
[30:42]
Cecily Gilligan
My understanding is the Balogn stones, the cursing stones, all these stones are definitely.
[30:47]
Sleep Number Ad
Pre Christian and as I said earlier, Christianity Christianized all Muslim and allocated them.
[30:53]
Cecily Gilligan
To a saint, which is the same what happened at the holy wells.
[30:56]
Sleep Number Ad
At our holy wells here we still.
[30:57]
Cecily Gilligan
Have thousands of holy wells.
[30:59]
Sleep Number Ad
They're really important. And we have rag trees. So the rag tree again is a tree, could be a hawthorn tree or an ash tree. It's very, very interesting.
[31:10]
Cecily Gilligan
People would go to the holy well.
[31:12]
Sleep Number Ad
As is called holy, but it would be an old spring, pre Christian spring.
[31:16]
Cecily Gilligan
Been there for thousands of years. And they would say their prayers, they would do the Christian rituals at the well.
[31:23]
Sleep Number Ad
They may drink the splash themselves with the water, but the pre Christian angle on it is the rag tree. So at these rag trees people would.
[31:32]
Cecily Gilligan
Have tie a little bit of themselves to the tree.
[31:35]
Sleep Number Ad
So could be a scarf, a sock.
[31:37]
Cecily Gilligan
A tissue, a hair bubble for a.
[31:39]
Sleep Number Ad
Girl, whatever you happen to have with you. And the belief is that as the time passes and the material, for example.
[31:47]
Cecily Gilligan
It'S a little scarf, as that deteriorates.
[31:50]
Sleep Number Ad
Your illness will deteriorate with it. And also that you're transferring your illness or your problem psychologically, psychological, physical, you're.
[31:58]
Cecily Gilligan
Transferring it and leaving it at the tree.
[32:00]
Sleep Number Ad
And another interesting thing in relation to.
[32:03]
Cecily Gilligan
The belief in the fairies and the.
[32:04]
Sleep Number Ad
Folklore was the pishog.
[32:07]
Cecily Gilligan
I don't know if you're aware of the peshawg. The pishog, that's an Irish word and it basically means a charm or a spell.
[32:13]
Sleep Number Ad
So it's again that kind of concept of transference.
[32:16]
Cecily Gilligan
If you wanted to inflict bad luck onto somebody, so you didn't like your neighbour and you'd had a falling out.
[32:22]
Sleep Number Ad
With them, what you did was you.
[32:23]
Cecily Gilligan
Took something that was perishable, that would rot.
[32:26]
Sleep Number Ad
So Meat or. And you wrapped it up and you placed it somewhere close, maybe on your neighbor's lands or close to their house. And the belief was that as the pisho disintegrated and, you know, disappeared, the.
[32:39]
Cecily Gilligan
Look of the people would also go with it.
[32:42]
Sleep Number Ad
And if you had an animal that died, you could throw the animal, because.
[32:45]
Cecily Gilligan
That'S obviously not good if your animal dies, and animals are very important, people had very little. So every animal counted. If one of your animals died like.
[32:52]
Sleep Number Ad
A calf, you could throw it into your neighbor's field.
[32:54]
Cecily Gilligan
And again, the belief was you'd be.
[32:56]
Sleep Number Ad
Transferring the bad luck from them.
[32:58]
Cecily Gilligan
Taking it from your.
[32:59]
Anthony Delaney
The subtitle to your book, Cures of Ireland is a Treasury of Irish Folk Remedies. Now, within that treasury, was there any particular remedy that stuck out to you? Have you used any of these yourself? What do you find the most effective or the most. What's the one that appeals to you the most? The cure.
[33:18]
Cecily Gilligan
As a child, I actually had jaundice. And my father went to the pulp, and he came home one night and he had a bottle that I had to drink. So it was a herbal cure for jaundice.
[33:27]
Sleep Number Ad
And in Ireland, we would have had.
[33:29]
Cecily Gilligan
Huge herbal knowledge people, great knowledge of the plants and how to use them. Unfortunately, we've lost a lot of that. And it's been disappearing for the last 150 years or more, since the famine.
[33:39]
Sleep Number Ad
Certainly in the mid-1800s, when I was.
[33:42]
Cecily Gilligan
In university in Cork University in the.
[33:44]
Sleep Number Ad
1980S, I started my research, and then.
[33:47]
Cecily Gilligan
I had interviewed someone who had that cure, the man that had that cure.
[33:51]
Sleep Number Ad
And then it was about 20 years.
[33:52]
Cecily Gilligan
Later, I followed up again, and he had passed the herbal cure to his nephew.
[33:56]
Sleep Number Ad
And it was. Well, it was actually convolvulus, which is kind of like bindweed, and a few.
[34:01]
Cecily Gilligan
Secret ingredients and some milk and some.
[34:04]
Sleep Number Ad
Beer and all mixed together to this drinkable mixture.
[34:07]
Cecily Gilligan
And that was the cure.
[34:09]
Sleep Number Ad
And it was interesting because I had.
[34:11]
Cecily Gilligan
Come across a reference to it.
[34:12]
Sleep Number Ad
I think it was the 1830s in.
[34:14]
Cecily Gilligan
Northamptonshire, the Midlands of England, where a similar cure had been recorded.
[34:19]
Sleep Number Ad
The bindweed was combined with beer, and.
[34:22]
Cecily Gilligan
A cure for jaundice was created. So I suppose that just shows you how old these cures are. And they keep going from decade and decades and century and century, and they survive.
[34:32]
Sleep Number Ad
And then another cure that I really like and I really enjoyed was the cure for the heart problems, which is.
[34:37]
Cecily Gilligan
Still being made today, is basically the.
[34:40]
Sleep Number Ad
Old man that I interviewed having this cure. You brought some pinhead oatmeal to him. And then he performed quite a complicated ritual of prayers. But he took some of the oatmeal that you brought to him, he put it into a glass, he covered it with a handkerchief, and then he placed.
[34:58]
Cecily Gilligan
The upturned glass with the oatmeal in it.
[35:01]
Sleep Number Ad
He placed it at a number of.
[35:02]
Cecily Gilligan
Points around your chest, around your body. He said his prayers, and he placed.
[35:07]
Sleep Number Ad
His hands on your head. So quite a complex ritual, maybe took 15 minutes. But then when he took away the.
[35:13]
Cecily Gilligan
Glass from your body and he removed.
[35:15]
Sleep Number Ad
The covering the handkerchief, if there was an indentation in the oatmeal, then he.
[35:20]
Cecily Gilligan
Knew you had a problem with your heart.
[35:22]
Sleep Number Ad
And you had to come to him.
[35:24]
Cecily Gilligan
For at least three visits.
[35:25]
Sleep Number Ad
And every time he came to him.
[35:27]
Cecily Gilligan
You would have the procedure repeated.
[35:30]
Sleep Number Ad
And then a time would come, he hoped, when you remove the handkerchief and the pinhead, oatmeal is unchanged.
[35:37]
Cecily Gilligan
So that means that your heart is well. And the other interesting thing I found about that cure was when, after your visit to him, he told you, take the oatmeal.
[35:46]
Sleep Number Ad
You know, we make it into porridge, take it home with you and quickly as possible and cook it and eat it.
[35:52]
Cecily Gilligan
So it's like you're also playing a part in the ritual, which I thought was quite fascinating.
[35:56]
Maddy Pelling
Cecily, you spoke there about how folkloric belief and practice, and particularly practice around cures, has diminished in the last 100, 150 years. In the conversations that we've had with our other guests in this series, talking about folklore in Wales, in England and in Scotland, there's a real sense that there's a folklore revival happening across the British Isles and Ireland. I wonder, do you feel that there is a place for folklore in modern day Ireland? Do you think it has a relevance, and do you think there is a renewed interest in it today?
[36:38]
Cecily Gilligan
Yes, I definitely feel there is.
[36:40]
Sleep Number Ad
And that's what I would have concluded in my book. Plus, I would always have asked the.
[36:44]
Cecily Gilligan
People who make the cures today or.
[36:46]
Sleep Number Ad
In the recent decade what they thought.
[36:49]
Cecily Gilligan
And generally, a lot of cures, you're right, Maddie, have been lost, but still many of them survive, which is interesting. Why do they continue to survive? So I believe that they survive because they're part of a more holistic approach to healing. So we have our modern medicine, which.
[37:05]
Sleep Number Ad
Is wonderful, but we also have the.
[37:07]
Cecily Gilligan
Traditional medicine, and there's a revival of.
[37:10]
Sleep Number Ad
Interest in lots of different types of.
[37:13]
Cecily Gilligan
Medicines and alternative therapies. And I believe the traditional Irish cures in the Irish context are part of that kind of broader, more holistic approach to healing.
[37:22]
Sleep Number Ad
And somebody might physically say a prayer for you or touch you, or you might drink a herbal drink, as I.
[37:28]
Cecily Gilligan
Did, for example, with Adhandas.
[37:30]
Sleep Number Ad
But there's also, I feel there's a.
[37:32]
Cecily Gilligan
Psychological and a spiritual component to the traditional cures.
[37:36]
Sleep Number Ad
And I think that's part of their.
[37:38]
Cecily Gilligan
Strength and why they've managed to survive. So, for example, the spiritual one, maybe.
[37:42]
Sleep Number Ad
That people say prayers or people go and they have an expectation and they say their prayers, your healing possibilities are.
[37:50]
Cecily Gilligan
Maybe increased because of that. And people find solace and they find.
[37:53]
Sleep Number Ad
Comfort in that, you know, religion is important to them.
[37:56]
Cecily Gilligan
Or even the saying of prayers, of.
[37:58]
Sleep Number Ad
Thinking there's a higher power possibly helping you. And then also I would feel very.
[38:02]
Cecily Gilligan
Much with the Irish traditional cures, there's.
[38:04]
Sleep Number Ad
A psychological component to it in that.
[38:07]
Cecily Gilligan
It'S very much a human interaction. So, Maddie, you might have a cure, for example, shingles.
[38:13]
Sleep Number Ad
And I'm looking for shingles cure and.
[38:15]
Cecily Gilligan
You make a herbal butter.
[38:16]
Sleep Number Ad
As a lovely young woman I met did that. So I called to and then we have a chat. We might have a cup of tea. We talk about my problems and a.
[38:24]
Cecily Gilligan
Nice human interaction takes place. Shown compassion and they're shown some support that's very much part of the healing tradition and generosity on behalf of the people who are giving the cures. So all of those things combine to.
[38:37]
Sleep Number Ad
Make it more effective and longer lasting.
[38:41]
Anthony Delaney
Well, I think that is a perfect place to wrap this conversation up. Cecily, thank you so much for coming on After Dark. And if you've enjoyed this conversation, do remember that Cecily's book, Cure wars of Ireland, A Treasury of Irish Folk Remedies, is available now. If you've enjoyed listening to this episode, please go back and listen to our other episodes about the folk traditions across Britain and Ireland. We'll also find so many other episodes that you can listen to there. Leave us a five star review wherever you get your podcasts. And until next time, happy listening.
[39:18]
Cecily Gilligan
I don't know about you, but the number one thing I look forward to when I return from traveling is a good night's sleep in my own bed. That has never been more true than it is now that I have a sleep number smart bed. I get so sore after traveling on planes. But after literally one night in my sleep number smart bed, my body feels restored, rested and relaxed. The fact that my bed actually listens to my body and adjusts to my needs to keep me sleeping soundly all the way through the night is worth it alone. Not to mention my husband and I never need to argue over firmness because we can each dial in our own sleep number setting. Why choose a sleep number smart bed? So you can choose your ideal comfort on either side. And now for a limited time, Sleep number smart beds start at $849. Price is higher in Alaska and Hawaii. Exclusively at a sleep number store near you. See store or sleepnumber.com for details.
[40:09]
Grainger Ad
If your job at a healthcare facility includes disinfecting against viruses, you know prevention is the best medicine. And maintaining healthy spaces starts with a healthy cleaning routine. Grainger's world class supply chain helps ensure you have the quality products you need when you need them, from disinfectants and cleaning supplies to personal protective equipment. So you can help deliver a clean bill of health. Call 1-800-GRAINGER click granger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.