← After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal
After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal
Ireland's First Witch: Medieval Murderer? (Part 2)
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- [00:01]
Anthony Delaney
Hi, we're your hosts Anthony Delaney and Maddy Pelling, and if you would like After Dark Myths, Misdeeds and the Paranormal ad free and get early access, Sign.
- [00:10]
Maddy Pelling
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- [00:21]
Anthony Delaney
Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe.
- [00:27]
Susanna Lipscomb
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Maddy Pelling
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- [02:59]
Anthony Delaney
Alice Kittler's fourth husband, Sir John Lauer, lies gravely ill, his body gaunt, hair gone, nails torn. To those who've seen what's left of him, Jon bears the unmistakable signs of arsenic's silent hand. Her enemies whisper that Alice, now more wealthy and powerful than ever before and long the suspect of local suspicion, has finally been found out, her dark arts exposed for all to see. In the face of such evidence, Bishop Richard Dledred is determined he must bring Dame Kittler to trial and rid Kilkenny of her demonic ways. What an example it will set to. Not even the most powerful woman in the town is immune from the Church's authority. In his zealous determination, he has appealed to the king's chancellor in Ireland, invoking the authority of the Oot Root Inquisitionus, the 1298 papal decree that mandates secular officials assist the Church in its quest to root out heresy. In his mind, Alice is not simply a criminal, but a threat to the very soul of Kilkenny. However, the King's chancellor in Ireland is one Roger Outlaw, and so far, at least, he has refused the bishop's demands. Outlaw might sound a familiar name in this history, and so it should, because it also happened to be the surname of Alice's first husband. In fact, the chancellor in question was related to Alice's first husband and does not bear the bishop's zeal for Alice's demise, Citing a law that forbids him from issuing a warrant until a public prosecution is held, Alice is duly excommunicated and 40 days have passed. Only then Outlaw tells Dilledred can he consider the bishop's request. Dilledred's frustration is palpable, but his resolve unshaken, Alice Kittler must burn.
- [05:30]
Maddy Pelling
Hello and welcome to After Dark. I'm Maddie.
- [05:33]
Anthony Delaney
And I'm Anthony.
- [05:34]
Maddy Pelling
And we are straight back in with part two of the story of Ireland's first witch, set in the auspicious location of Anthony's hometown of Kilkenny.
- [05:46]
Anthony Delaney
And the cats. That's what we call people, frankly. Kenny the cat.
- [05:49]
Maddy Pelling
I was about to say. What's happening?
- [05:51]
Anthony Delaney
You just shut and I've never said those words in my life. It's a sport thing. And now I feel very weird. But it is a sport thing.
- [05:58]
Maddy Pelling
You're officially sporty. Well, we've just been having a conversation off mic about how many peacocks there are in Ireland. So I'm totally confused and explained.
- [06:06]
Anthony Delaney
Hold on, you're paraphrasing a little bit. I didn't say there's a load of peacocks in Ireland. It's just that I had peacocks growing up and they're around.
- [06:13]
Maddy Pelling
Anthony said every single person in Ireland owns a peacock, and there are more peacocks than people.
- [06:18]
Anthony Delaney
People. Y.
- [06:21]
Maddy Pelling
He didn't. I lie. We're back in with this history that. I mean, I loved doing the first episode. I am so invested in the story. It has such fascinating individual characters. Every single person in this, despite having lived 700 years ago to the day, almost in 1324, the events that we're discussing, despite living so long ago, they feel like palpable, real human beings to me. They feel like people that we might meet in our own lives. And I don't mean because we can get necessarily into their mindset, but just because they come to us so fully rounded and fully formed through the evidence that we have because of what's about to happen. We have accounts of, yes, wealthy, important people in this place, but also servants, people who would, presumably, from the 14th century, have disappeared from the historical record. So it's an incredibly exciting case. It's also a case that is really going to shape a lot of the discourse around witchcraft and what a witch is, what a witch might do, the sexual element, not only the gendered element, but the sexual element of witchcraft. I feel like this is a very early marker along that timeline and that it is going to have that impact. So, Anthony, let's just recap what we discussed in episode one, because the cast of characters is quite extensive at this point. We have Alice Kittler herself, wife to four husbands, possibly all of whom are deceased. At the point at which we pick up our story, the fourth one might be at home dying. He might have already died. Either way, it's not looking good.
- [08:06]
Anthony Delaney
Not looking good.
- [08:07]
Maddy Pelling
He's off to the graveyard. We then have Alice's servant Petronella, and her young daughter living in Alys's household. Alice is a wealthy money lender. She's a landowner. She's made her wealth through her own hard work, let's just clarify. But also through the husbands that she's had, the positions that they've held, and the inheritance that she's got from them as well. So much so that she has really frustrated and angered and alienated some of the stepchildren who have come into her life through those marriages, through those relationships. We know that she has at least one child. Of her own, William, a son from her first marriage. The son of William Outlaw, whose relative we heard about in the opening of this episode. And William Jr. William, her son, an ally of his mother. He's there to try and protect her in what is to come. So she is a popular figure. Despite the resentments around her, around her station, her class, her wealth. In this community, there are people who are standing by her. And then in addition to that, we have the Bishop, this man who's an obsessive religious zealot. He's no fun, as we established in the first episode. He's all about the sombre Latin hymn over the popular folk song. He's not allowing anyone to have a good time. He wants everything to be by the book. And he's become obsessed with Alice. He's become obsessed with catching her for the crime that he's already, let's be honest, associated with her. He believes her to be a witch and he's trying to gather evidence. And as we've just heard in the opening of this episode, that is quite a frustrating process because of Alice's allies. There's now this great struggle between the Bishop and some of the people of Kilkenny over the life and reputation of Alys herself. How did I do?
- [10:01]
Anthony Delaney
You did really well. And actually you highlighted something to me there which is so interesting, I think. And we have to bear this in mind that when we hear stories of Alice's history, drawing that distinction between the history and the story, we often hear that the townsfolk are against her. This isn't just Dilledred, the Bishop acting on his own, that he has support in the community, but actually that's coming from the Bishop. And what we see instead is that Alice's support is coming from within the community that we've mentioned all throughout. And not only coming from within the community, coming from within her extended family of people she has been married to. So we saw Outlaw come in at the start of the narrative here at episode two. We saw Le Poyer coming in at the end of episode one. All surnames that are linked to Alice by marriage. These are the relatives of those individual husbands. And they are rallying around Alice to try and protect her from the Church's interference. But, you know, by so doing, they're trying to protect their own status and their own place in society, not to let the Church weasel in too much. We are fed this narrative from the Bishop, from Dilledred, that Alice is this outlier. But actually, the more we look at the tensions that are rising in the town that doesn't seem to be the case at all. In fact, it looks like the Bishop is the outlier.
- [11:24]
Maddy Pelling
I agree and I think, yeah, it's a really interesting dynamic and this story takes us right into the heart of a 14th century community. You know, this was 700 years ago. I don't mean to keep banging on about how long ago it was, but it's incredible that we can stand in Alice's shoes to a certain extent on some of the streets. And you've mentioned in episode one, some of these streets still exist and the building still exist. We can get something of a perspective on this world and the arguments, the debates, the fears that were running through it. So we have the Bishop gathering this so called evidence against Alice. He's determined to nail her for this, in his mind, believes she's a witch or certainly sees the advantage of accusing her and punishing her as one. What happens next? What's Alys's response? Because we're hearing a lot from these relatives who are standing up for her and that's all well and good, but what's happening to Alys in this moment?
- [12:23]
Anthony Delaney
Well, I think that's a key question because you need to place Alys within these manoeuvrings, right? She's not a passive bystander, she's very active in these negotiations. And yes, you're right, Bishop de Ledred is trying to bring formal accusations, formal proceedings against Alice now to bring around these rumours, whatever they might be, even if he's invented them or some disgruntled step children may have also been on board. But he's trying to bring them into formal proceedings. And so he reaches out to the authorities because that's what he's going to have to do. And what we see is Alice and her allies engage in a kind of strategic delay to bat off these formal proceedings for. For as long as they possibly can. So she's connected and she's using those connections to delay any summons that she can for as long as she possibly can. And the Bishop Dilledra complains in his letters that Alice is being protected by those in high places. So he sees this now as an institutional flaw almost, that these nobles, these Anglo Norman nobles in Kilkenny are willing to be satanic as he sees it.
- [13:33]
Maddy Pelling
And that's an interesting tension, isn't it, between the nobility that dominate the society in Kilkenny and the Church. And we see these different power structures and institutions coming into, you know, locking horns essentially, I guess, but from what we know about Alice, she is a go getter. She knows how to work the patriarchal world in which she lives and operates. She's had four husbands, she's made money, she is a businesswoman, she lends money. She is absolutely down with the mechanical workings of the medieval world and has used them to her advantage. And she is at a disadvantage as a woman. As we set out in episode one, women are not traditionally given power. If women in this period do hold power, it's because they've got it for themselves. They've absolutely worked for it and have to work to hold onto it. So I can't imagine that Alice is going to take these accusations lying down. She has these protectors, people are rallying around her. But then she makes a decision in a slightly different direction, doesn't she? And it's one that's gonna have interesting consequences.
- [14:41]
Anthony Delaney
It is, but it also speaks to Alys's intelligence, because what she decides to do at a certain point is to flee Kilkenny. She has to go. And I think that says a lot about her and her ability and her savvy, because there's fighting and then there's fighting, a pointless fight. And she understands that any of these delay tactics that she has engaged in and that she's been successful in so far. The stories, let's say, rather than evidence, are mounting and the bishop is mounting as much evidence again in commas, that he can get. So she escapes, we think, just before any convictions are forthcoming, she escapes to England to get away from the Bishop's authority. However, this is interesting because it leaves the bishop's still wanting to prove his point, right? He can't just be seen to have let her get away and to have let her disappeared, and he has no authority in the place. And look, she can circumvent his authority. So what Alice's fleeing does is it leaves Petronella to bear the weight of the Church's intrusion. Petronella, remember, is Alice's maid, and we met her in episode one. She lives in her house. Their close confidence, or at least that's what Bishop Diedred would lead us to believe. It's through Petronella, then, that we have to find punishment and answers for Alice's actions. And it's interesting because in a lot of the stories that I heard growing up, you hear that, yes, Alice flees, but that she comes back to Dublin and she persuades the bishop in Dublin that Bishop Diedred is going too far. And then there's an intervention, but then she escapes back to England again. So she doesn't abandon Petronella. All that Easily in those stor. Then you'll hear another story that says, oh, actually she was taken captive when she was in Kilkenny, and she was kept in what is now Kilkenny Castle, although the building is totally different than it would have been in the 14th century. And she was held in the cells there and somehow then magically escaped using magic. And that still persists. You will hear that today, probably, if you go on a tour of Kilkenny, you will hear that kind of magic escapism idea. So there are a few different competing stories there, but from what I can tell from the archive and from the primary source material, she was never actually held. And ultimately she escapes, we think, from Ireland altogether, probably lives in England, but she was never held, as far as I can see, in any of the primary source material.
- [17:10]
Maddy Pelling
So we know that Alys has, or at least had this close relationship with Petronella, her servant, that they were confidants, and also that Petronella's daughter was living under Alice's roof. And this enraged the bishop. This disruption of patriarchal power and this kind of camaraderie between women of different social classes has obviously really stoked something up in the imagination of Alice's detractors in and around Kilkenny. It just seems so remarkable to me that she then leaves her. Because surely she could have taken Petronella with her. Surely.
- [17:45]
Anthony Delaney
Well, the story goes that she took Basilia with her. She took the daughter. She took Petronella's daughter with her.
- [17:53]
Maddy Pelling
I mean, that's worse.
- [17:55]
Anthony Delaney
This is. It's interesting, isn't it? And it's where this. It's. Again, we're seeing that conflict between story and history. And I like what you were describing there of this camaraderie between the two women. And again, remember, I flagged before that some of that camaraderie, I think, lives in story rather than in history and. Or I wonder if it does. I have no way of proving that, but my historical spidey senses tell me it might, to a certain extent. You know, part of the closeness that we're told that they had lies in the possibility that they were part of the coven and they didn't belong to a coven. You know what I mean? They weren't witches. And, you know, when we talk about something like the Pendle witches, it's certain that there was a certain element of belief amongst those women and men that they were part of a coven and that they. Whatever actually they were getting up to, they expressed amongst themselves that there was some kind of camaraderie going on between them. And they had some kind of COVID understanding between themselves and that spells may have been exchanged there. That is not the case in this case at all. All we have is the bishop saying that that's the case and some, according to the bishop, some disgruntled stepchildren. So if you think about it, Petronella being abandoned, if she's just a maid in the house, which is far more likely than there being a huge intimate relationship, isn't that surprising at all. You would leave your maid behind if she didn't mean that much to you, which most maids wouldn't have had.
- [19:16]
Maddy Pelling
Yeah, I think that's true. And especially, you know, if we imagine for a second that maybe Alice had killed all four of her husbands, which, let's be honest, you know, it's a possibility. Maybe the maid knows something. Maybe she wants to leave her behind because she's worried that this person, if brought along with her, will always be the person she has to keep quiet, the person she has to cover up. I can't see there's a world in which Petronella agrees to take the punishment on behalf of Alice. That doesn't seem likely.
- [19:51]
Anthony Delaney
No. But interesting that you should bring that up, because the case, as I said, isn't going away. Just because Alice has fled doesn't mean Bishop Dilledred is going to let this case drop. He still has a point to make. And you said earlier he's obsessed with Alice. And I think we can't prove that necessarily through historical records, but it very much feels like he is. Even when she's gone, he's still going, I'm gonna get her.
- [20:14]
Maddy Pelling
Yeah. And he. I want you to tell me about this in a second. But he. He has some pretty. Pretty creepy ideas around the kind of witchcraft that she's practicing. And it seems to me that he's. He's kind of sexually obsessed with her. He's. He won't let it go. And the things he's imagining that she's done go far beyond just poisoning for husbands. And I say just poisoning lightly. I mean, you know, if she really did that, it is pretty despicable. But the things he accuses her of and the coven that she's supposedly part of, they're pretty shocking. And they're very explicit, aren't they, in terms of their content.
- [20:50]
Anthony Delaney
Yeah. So the bishop continues to gather evidence against Alice. And part of her now being Gondespite, the fact that, by the way, her son is still there. William Outlaw Jr. Is still in Kilkenny. And we'll come to him Again in a minute. The Bishop, now, with the aid of Petronella, has access to Kittler's house. And the house is searched. And it's during this search that certain items are discovered. So we know, for instance, that. And I'm quoting here. Well, it was originally in Latin. I'm not going to say the Latin, but the English translation is a pipe and ointment are discovered in Alice's bedroom. And it's believed now that this may have been some kind of sexual aid, what we might refer to as dildo, and that that was known at the time. And because as you're talking about this kind of idea of sex, sexuality, even beyond gender. But of course, in this case, you can't go beyond gender when it comes to this, then this is seen as part of her. If she had a sex drive, and of course, remember, she's been married four times, so that's further support that maybe she, in the bishop's eyes. I'm talking about now, in the bishop's eyes, that she had this almost satanic, heretical sexual appetite that she couldn't say, the men couldn't sate.
- [22:09]
Maddy Pelling
Yeah. And I think, as well, that's exactly it, isn't it? It's the fact that she's not satisfied with these four husbands and that she has this voracious appetite, again, according to the bishop. And it's finding an object like that that people in the medieval times did make and own and used. It's an insult in the eyes of the bishop to the patriarchal community that they live in, to the idea of the sanctity of marriage, I suppose, and the function of sexual intercourse and just an offense to masculinity generally. I imagine that's how the Bishop would see it. And therefore, it's a kind of abomination, and it's just another black mark against her name. It's absolutely fascinating. So we have this version of Alice that's being painted by the bishop, but the bishop himself has now gone so far into this obsession, into this absolute drive to catch Alice and to prove that she's a witch, that he starts to come under fire, doesn't he?
- [23:13]
Anthony Delaney
Yeah. The tensions are so rife in Kilkenny at this point, and this is where William Outlaw Jr. Alice's son, comes back into play. He appeals to Sir Arnold Lapwere, who is related to him through the fourth marriage of his mother. Remember, he appeals to Sir Arnold to stop this invasion that the Bishop is performing against Alice, even though she's not there anymore.
- [23:36]
Maddy Pelling
But he's in her house. Isn't he like. He's fully rifling through her stuff.
- [23:39]
Anthony Delaney
Oh, the bishop. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. It's already gone too far. But lepuer does actually act, and he imprisons Bishop de Ledred for a very small amount of time. He can't really hold him for too long, but as a result, it's so wild, if you think about it. Daledred then stops any religious ceremonies from happening in Kilkenny until he's released. Now, bear in mind that for a community who, okay, they may not be as extremist as Dledred, but they're still a devout community. They still have their religious beliefs. And to be not able to practice that at all in the whole of the county. I mean, I can even imagine if that was in the 1980s in Ireland, people would have been off in arms, let alone in the 1320s or wherever we are. So the pressure was just too much, and he had to. Bishop de Lederet had to be released. But, you know, the authorities are moving against him, but he's really determined. And the next move he makes then is kind of. It's the nail in the coffin, but it might not be the nail in the person's coffin, you think, because the next person he turns to, to extract information is Petronella. And Petronella is his key. And she is interrogated and she's tortured, and she is, as Dilledred wants us to believe. Alice's closest conf. Deserves this as far as he's concerned.
- [24:56]
Maddy Pelling
I mean, it's not surprising to me that Petrella is tortured when she is arrested for witchcraft. And this is something that we see again and again, sadly, in the later centuries when the witch trials really, really ignite in Europe. And we've talked multiple times on this podcast about the effects of torture, the kind of torture that was done, but also the fact that torture never elicits a truthful confession. It's utterly pointless. But of course, that's not what the bishop's interested in. He just wants those words to come out of Petronella's mouth that condemn Alice so that he can get on with this strange idea that he has and to really sort of prove himself correct. And I suppose now the stakes are higher than they've ever been because he's been imprisoned and then released. And, I mean, that's fascinating as well. Like you say, the withholding of access to God and to heaven. I mean, that's extremely serious. This is a moment in time when the priest is your conduit to speak to God. The priest is the person who can make sure your newborn baby is baptized in time in case it dies prematurely. It's the person who can give you the last rites as you're dying in your bed, age 80. It's the person who can legitimize your romantic union. All of that stuff is being withheld by him so you can see the power that that would have. But also, he obviously has enemies in this community, so he's got to get that confession.
- [26:40]
Unknown
I'm Professor Susanna Lipscomb and on Not Just the Tudors From History Hit we do admittedly cover quite a lot of Tudors, from the rise of Henry VII to the death of Henry viii, from Anne Boleyn to her daughter Elizabeth I. But we also do lots that's not Tudors, murderers, mistresses, pirates and witches. Clues in the title really. So follow not just the Tudors from History hit wherever you get your podcasts.
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Maddy Pelling
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- [28:49]
Maddy Pelling
What is the testimony that Petronella gives?
- [28:53]
Anthony Delaney
Yeah, this testimony is key because in terms of the 14th century, what we move from now is gossip and accusations into proof. Petronel's confessions under torture, remember? And all the caveats that Maddie has given about confessions given under torture stand. Those confessions are enough to proceed with the excommunication and conviction of Dame Alice Kittler. And this, according to Bishop Daledred, was Petronella's testimony. On one of these occasions, by the crossroads outside the city, Alice had made an offering of three cocks to a certain demon whom she called Robert, son of Art. From the depths of the underworld, she had poured out the cock's blood, cut the animal into pieces, and mixed the intestines with spiders and other black worms like scorpions, with a herb called me foi, as well as with other herbs and horrible worms. She had boiled this mixture in a pot with the brains and clothes of a boy who had died without baptism and with the head of a robber who had been decapitated. Petronella said she had several times at Alice's instigation, and once in her presence, consulted demons and received answers. Petronella had consented to a pact whereby she would be the medium between Alice and the said robbery, Robert, her friend. In public, she said that with her own eyes, she had seen the aforesaid demon as three shapes in the form of three black men, each carrying an iron rod in the hand. This apparition happened by daylight before the said Dame Alice. And while Petronella herself was watching, the apparition had intercourse with Alice. After this disgraceful act, with her own hand, she, Alice, wiped clean the disgusting place with sheets from her own bed. Among other things, Petronella said that she, with her mistress, often made a sentence of excommunication against her own husband with wax candles lighted, as their rules required. And though she was herself indeed an adept in this accursed art of theirs, she said she was nothing in comparison with her mistress, from whom she had learned all these things and many more. And indeed, in all the realm of the King of England, there was none more skilled or equal to her in this art.
- [31:27]
Maddy Pelling
So here's the thing with 14th century witchcraft. Who can be bothered to gather all those ingredients together? That is a lot of faff.
- [31:36]
Anthony Delaney
I'm not doing It.
- [31:37]
Maddy Pelling
Alice is a busy woman. She's got businesses to run, she's got.
- [31:40]
Anthony Delaney
Husbands to kill, she's got money to collect.
- [31:43]
Maddy Pelling
Yeah, exactly. She's calling in people's debts. She's not running around making potions from. What was it? Babies brains, worms, scorpions, some herbs.
- [31:52]
Anthony Delaney
In terms of those descriptions, it's quite vivid, isn't it? Like, there's stuff in there you don't hear. Like decapitated robber's head, babies brains. Like it's real witchcraft stuff. More so than you actually come across in later medieval texts or early modern texts.
- [32:05]
Maddy Pelling
Yeah, I mean, it kind of reminded me of the obviously, much later Macbeth speech the witches do in the opening of that play, actually. Yeah, I mean, I love that. It's like. And some herbs. Because you've got to be seasoning it.
- [32:19]
Anthony Delaney
Yeah, you'd need to season that.
- [32:20]
Maddy Pelling
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You really would, wouldn't you? Yeah. So that just seems. I mean, it's unrealistic. Obviously it's unrealistic, but it seems a little bit overkill. And I'm sort of fascinated by the fact that Petronella is giving all this evidence under torture, and she's obviously being fed these things by the bishop. And he is very inventive. I mean, this is really creative. Just to recap some of the other things that they talk about that. Because the language, as we heard, is obviously quite dense and translated from the Latin as well, so some of the phrasing is a little bit strange. And didn't Anthony do well with that translation?
- [32:56]
Anthony Delaney
Not in real life, guys. It'll all be cut out. But actually, it took me quite a long time to read that passage.
- [33:02]
Maddy Pelling
So there's accusations that Petronella is making against Alice, saying that she's been fraternizing with a demon. Robert, Son of Art. I love the names in this story. Fascinating. And he's from the depths of the underworld and that they meet at the crossroads. I am obsessed. I want to write a book that's just a history of crossroads. I'm absolutely fascinated with it. Throughout history, we get people who have been nefarious criminals, who have sadly taken their own lives, who have been thought to be terrifying enough to potentially come back from the dead, who are then buried at crossroads to stop them from finding their way back. You know, the hope is that the roads going off in different directions will confuse them. So I'm always interested in the power and the danger of the crossroad. In the meantime, let's get back to the things that Petronella says she Says she's seen Alice having sex with this demon, Robert, son of art from the underworld, and that he's taking the form of three black men. I don't think that means three men who are racially black. I think it means they are little demons who are, you know, coloured in these sort of dark, shadowy forms. They supposedly also curse Alice's husband and Petronella is involved in this. So again, we're getting these accusations of harm done to the deceased husband. So we're seeing some truth, some kernel of the reality of Alice's life and the death of her husbands creeping into these otherwise fictional and ridiculous claims. The thing that really stands out for me though is at the end of that passage, Alice is described as being more skilled in the dark arts than anyone in not Ireland, but England. What is going on there? Why is she suddenly being qualified in terms of England and not Ireland?
- [34:51]
Anthony Delaney
It's funny too, because if she is more dangerous than anyone in England, she's already probably in England at this point, as far as we know. So she's taking the danger over there with her. Either way, you know, I think it's very early colonial mindset going. I mean, you can be dangerous in Ireland, but it's nothing compared to what you might be if you were dangerous in England.
- [35:09]
Maddy Pelling
You know, they just have a higher standard of witches in England, guys.
- [35:12]
Anthony Delaney
Yeah, yeah. And even Alice surpass as that, you know, so it's just kind of that. And also bearing in mind that Bishop de Ledred is English, so his reference points, I suppose are. Kakeny is all he knows, really. So I suppose his reference points are French and English mostly. But yeah, it is. I stopped at that myself as I was like, oh, interesting. But also says who his intended audience for writing this material down is that it's not necessarily Ireland, it's people in England and it's people that therefore then will take that into the continent potentially. So he's thinking beyond Ireland with Bianca Kenny, certainly with. How is bringing these accusations together now formally.
- [35:50]
Maddy Pelling
Yeah, which speaks to his ambition, I suppose, in terms of his career, in terms of his reach and his fame. I mean, he obviously wants to make a name for himself. He's not come to this beautiful city to slot in and not be noticed. You know, he's arrived and instantly caused a massive problem and accused one of the wealthiest, most high status women in the town of Witchcraft. This isn't a guy who's happy to just. Just melt into the background. Poor old Petronella, meanwhile, has been tortured. She's had this confession in a verticommas drawn out of her, and she said all of these things or supposedly said them. I mean, the likelihood is, of course, that the bishop is either feeding her the lines or is just writing this down as though she said it himself. But she's implicated herself in her confession. She talks about how she's helped Alice at various points. She's witnessed this union with a demon. She' been involved in the spells that Alice has done to cause harm to people in the community, to her own husbands. She's not going to get away with it, is she?
- [36:55]
Anthony Delaney
No, she's found guilty because there is a trial now, because we have factual. Well, what passes as factual evidence in the confession, in Petronel's confession. Now, if you cast your mind forward to things like the Salem witch trials or other witch trials where confessions can often spare your life, that is absolutely not the case here. So Petronella, actually, if you remember back to the start of episode one, we started with a woman in Kilkenny being dragged across the cobblestones of the streets in Kilkenny, people coming out to watch and her being burned at the stake. That wasn't Alice Kittler. Alice Kittler is never burned. She's never captured. She never undergoes any legal system whatsoever. That was Petronella's final day that we recounted at the start of episode one. And we think that it is one of the earliest known instances of burnings of this type of execution in Europe. And of course, her death then serves to Bishop de Ledred, Petronella's death serves as a cautionary example that the Church can instill a fear and reinforce its authority through fear, despite any religious opposition or any civic authority that it's coming up against. So her execution, brutal execution, is a real example taking place right at the heart of Glilkenny, a real example to the people of Kilkenny. Do not cross me like Alice did.
- [38:27]
Maddy Pelling
I wonder, and we'll never know the answer to this, but I wonder what Alice must have felt when she found out that Petronella who she'd left behind, whether through choice, whether Petronella didn't want to go with her, whether. I don't know. I mean, we'll never know the truth of that either. But I wonder what Alice would have felt hearing the news of that execution. And from what you're saying, Anthony, it's a pivotal moment not only in that local community, but throughout Ireland, throughout Europe, really. And the ripples of that would have traveled so far. And even if Alice made her way to England and spent the rest of her life there, she presumably would have heard about this and she would have people in Kilkenny who could tell her that information, who could communicate that to her from afar. I wonder what she thought and whether there was a feeling of guilt, whether there was simply a feeling of gratitude that she'd escaped that terrible fate and the horror of that, and whether that was ever communicated to little Basilia if Alice did indeed take Petronella's daughter with her. And again, I don't think we'll ever know the answer to that. Right. That's something else that's lost and only appears in certain versions of the story. But that dynamic between those three women is so poignant. And it's at the heart of this story. And it raises as many questions as it answers, actually. Because I think so much of the truth of this case rests in the relationship between Petronella and Alice. And the nature of it, whatever that was, speaks to everything that comes after it. I think.
- [40:02]
Anthony Delaney
I think you've hit the nail on the head there. That's my conclusion from this as well. And in that relationship, which we will never be able to do, trying to tease out the differences between history and story and what elements make for a good story and what elements are supported factually by historical evidence. And very few actually are supported factually by historical evidence. I mean, the other thing, I love the way you brought up the idea there of actually Alice's reaction when she undoubtedly heard of Petronella. I'm sure she did as well. Again, no evidence to suggest that, but likelihood is she did. Here would be. It could well have been, well, thank Christ I did a runner. That could have been me. It could just as easily have been that. Let's face it, you know, it doesn't necessarily sit well with us as 21st century people, but it could. But I'll tell you what may have irked her a little bit more, may have concerned her a little bit more, was the fate of her son, William Outlaw, who, of course, they were very close because Outlaw was also accused of heresy during this and found guilty. Now, it took a while for Bishop D'Ledra to find a court that would take the case, but eventually he was convicted and excommunicated and then briefly imprisoned. So this is William Outlaw, Alice's son, being briefly imprisoned this time, however. And this is so. Gosh, I mean, so demeaning in one sense, but I suppose you could look at it as a calculated move. In order to secure his release, Outlaw Alice's son has to beg Bishop Dilledret for forgiveness and to reverse his excommunication, he has to visit the Holy Land. He has to follow specific rules as he's on his journey. But I would imagine that there's a world in which her Alice's concern went to her son. Potentially right, Even though Petronella met a far more violent and despicable end.
- [42:05]
Unknown
I'm Professor Susanna Lipscomb and on Not Just the Tudors From History Hit we do admittedly cover quite a lot of Tudors, from the rise of Henry VII to the death of Henry vi, from Anne Boleyn to her daughter Elizabeth I. But we also do lots that's not Tudors, murderers, mistresses, pirates and witches. Clues in the title really. So follow not just the Tudors from History hit wherever you get your podcasts.
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- [43:44]
Maddy Pelling
I suppose as well. Alice had made all that money and she'd built a little empire for herself and one that her son would otherwise have inherited. So there would have been that concern there in terms of passing on her legacy and her memory in that community, the community where she'd made her home. Yeah, I mean, it says so much about Ledyard, doesn't it? The bishop that William outlaw has to beg his forgiveness. Predictable and in line with what we know about the church in that period. But nevertheless, on a human level, I mean, it is demeaning, it's pretty horrifying. And that he has to go all the way to the Holy Land to reverse his excommunication. I mean, that's again, not unusual for the period, but pretty extreme. My question for you, Anthony, is do you think Alice killed her husband? Is she guilty of something?
- [44:37]
Anthony Delaney
That was my question for you as well, you know, that was one of the things. There's so much that comes out of this, isn't there? But when you start to bring all of these pieces together, in the end you are left with one question. And that I think is one of those questions. Well, obviously I don't know. I don't have any proof. My instinct says something's going on here because yeah, mortality rates in 14th century Ireland are not great, but this isn't normal. And if you do look at some of the symptoms again that Dilledred is reporting, it is all coming from him. But if you think about some of the symptoms that are recounted for the fourth husband, it does fall in line with arsenic poisoning. And I was like, arsenic poisoning sounds a much later thing. And so I did look this up. But no, it was being used, used in the 14th century as a form of pretty legitimate poison. So it's. And it was mixed with other things. But certainly the case could well be that she was poisoning them. I have a feeling something's going on. Does that excuse what happens to Petronella? Absolutely not. Of course it doesn't.
- [45:42]
Maddy Pelling
It makes it so much worse. If Alice really is guilty of murdering four people and then she leaves Petronella to take the wrap for something akin to that. I mean, that's dreadful.
- [45:53]
Anthony Delaney
It becomes about class then, doesn't it? It really brings that class thing in rather than the gender thing, which is automatically there. But the class aspect becomes a little bit more clear, I think.
- [46:03]
Maddy Pelling
Yeah, I agree. I think on the one hand, why would Alice kill four prominent men?
- [46:11]
Anthony Delaney
I agree.
- [46:12]
Maddy Pelling
In a community that she intended to stay in and that she was, you know, she operated in, she relied on people's trust for her business as a moneylender. People had to know that she had a good solid reputation. Why would she trash that? Why would she put that into jeopardy? I, I don't know. But then they all die quite quickly after she's married them and she remarries pretty quickly afterwards.
- [46:38]
Anthony Delaney
She does, yeah, yeah.
- [46:39]
Maddy Pelling
And you know, good for her. Maybe she did have a voracious sexual appetite. Maybe she disliked company. Who are we to judge? But four in a row, I mean, what's, you know, just sort of bastardize the old adage, you know, like one's unfortunate, two is a pretty bad accident, three starting to look suspicious. And four is not great.
- [47:00]
Anthony Delaney
And four is a witch trial.
- [47:01]
Maddy Pelling
Yeah, four is a witch trial. Absolutely. Yeah. So I don't know. I don't, I don't. I mean, we'll never know we'll never know. But I think a woman who was able to build a status and a life for herself, who also had four dead husbands under her belt, drew attention to herself in 14th century Ireland. And that's undeniable. Whether she meant to or not, whether she committed any kind of crime or not, I don't know. But the fact that she stepped out of line in some way, whether through murder or just being a 2015 boss bitch, you know, like, we'll never know. But it's tantalizing. It's so frustrating. I need someone to come in now and be like, no, actually, this is the evidence and we've solved it.
- [47:48]
Anthony Delaney
Yeah, yeah, we have it. We found it. Yeah, yeah.
- [47:51]
Maddy Pelling
So we will never know. And instead, in the place of the truth that we so desperately want, there's a story or multiple stories. There's a legacy to this. Obviously, Anthony, you are very familiar with that legacy. You've grown up in the shadow of it in the wake of it in Kilkenny itself. Do you see this case as having particular historical importance? Beyond that. Beyond that, local history preservation?
- [48:18]
Anthony Delaney
Do you know? I do, actually. And it struck me when I was researching this episode, I was like, the warning here is centuries felt throughout Ireland, and it relates to women in the church. And it may also have a warning beyond Ireland in the current political climate, where religious extremism is blinding people to women's rights, beyond Europe, including in Europe as well, of course. And this idea that the church is threatened by women, by powerful women, by women's sexuality, that is a legacy that we live with in a very present tense in Ireland. And I'm not just talking about Alice's case. I'm talking about in the case of the mother and baby homes, for instance, in just general attitudes towards women, more largely beyond the mother and baby homes. And I agree, Maddie, it goes beyond the history because there's so many blind spots in the history, and it's why it's become such a tantalizing story and why I'm more familiar with the story than I am with the history, although I actually think the history is fascinating. But the story, I think if there's anything we can take from it, take it as a warning sign. Take it as proof from the 14th century that the battle between women's rights and religious extremism don't go well.
- [49:49]
Maddy Pelling
I agree, and I think you've expressed that amazingly eloquently. What do you think Alice is to modern Ireland now? What do you think she can be? Because in episode one, at the beginning, you Said that she's something of a local folk hero and that people really celebrate her and there's huge support for her story. And, you know, she's seen as a figure who was wronged. And, you know, you've made those overt connections across the centuries to the treatment of women in Ireland, specifically by the church and within the church. Do you think Alice is not only a warning, but do you think she's a symbol of hope? Can she be that? Or is she a woman who possibly murdered four husbands and legged it to England? You know, is there a world in which she can do work for us now in the modern day?
- [50:36]
Anthony Delaney
Yeah, I think in a world where we don't have access to trial records, to evidence based as to whether or not she did or didn't kill husbands, what she becomes is. We've spoken about this before. There being this idea that in the 19th century there was this Gaelic revival in Ireland, where after centuries of colonialism, we had this reclamation of Gaelic identity, which then led to revolt and revolution in the 20th century. And what we're seeing now amongst an awful lot of young people in Ireland, actually, is this second Gaelic revival. And this is happening as we speak. And there's a huge surge in Irish language. You see it on social media, you see it just in social settings. And in that context, there is the revival of the image of eru, this all powerful, all encompassing female Ireland that is wisdom and strength and mothering and just earthly power, devoid of capitalism, kind of devoid of patriarchy, as much as she possibly can be. And it's a real surge in Ireland right now, this kind of divine feminine, A re. Exploration of the divine feminine. And it's happening amongst men too, which is really encouraging. And I think she fits into that. And this is the seventh hundred year, as you so mathematically pointed out of this. And I totally got over my head. But I also realized that there's loads of celebrations happening in Kilkenny this year of Alice. It's funny, isn't it, because the class element comes back in because it's Alice and it's not Petronella, but Petronella is the one who was burned. Now, Petronella is also famous in Kilkenny, but I would say beyond Kilkenny, she's not all that famous. Although she does appear in a museum in Brooklyn as a witch that was. Or a table setting appears for her. Actually there's a table setting for loads of women who were burnt at the stake or tried as witches. And she's one of the table settings is for Petronella. But it brings that class element in again of going, well, we wouldn't know how to celebrate Petronella because she's not powerful.
- [52:23]
Maddy Pelling
Well, for me, Petronella is maybe the one to remember not over Alice. And certainly there are not enough women being remembered from history anyway. Let's not erase any. But Petronella. To me, especially thinking about those parallels or those echoes of the treatment of women by the Church and the erasure of women of all classes, but certainly from the lower classes, to me, Petronella is, I suppose, possibly a symbol of that she could be remembered in those terms. And her story is the one that is tragic and the one that has the most resonance, I think, from this conversation. For me, she's the one who has to face the full force of the Church and the punishment and the hatred of the bishop and his obsession and his extremism, as you say. And, yeah, it's interesting that it's her social class, her status in that world in the 14th century, that really removes her from the story beyond the local discussion of it. So, yeah, I think she'll be the one that I'm taking from this.
- [53:30]
Anthony Delaney
And I think, remember that idea of religious extremism, because there will be people who will listen to this and say, well, it's not extremist in the context of the time, but it is, because look at how the civic authorities are reacting to the imposition of religious control. They see it as extreme. They see it as being far too imposing, and it's overreaching. So in that sense, even people at the time, it's not just with the 21st century gaze that we see the religious extremism coming in here. But Petronella, for me as well, there's a restaurant down one of the. I think it's the Butterslip in Kilkenny, down this medieval alley. And there's a restaurant called Petronella's, and it is called after that, Petronella. So Alice Kittler has her inn, and you can go there and you can have a few pints and you can have your Sunday roast. And Petronella has a restaurant.
- [54:16]
Maddy Pelling
Free drinks at Alice's and then dinner at Petronella's. Get yourself down there.
- [54:21]
Anthony Delaney
That's the vibe. And they're not very far away from each other. They're literally 20 steps away from one another. Oh, and by the way, I didn't even realize until we were chatting that I have seen Bishop de Ledred's grave, his tomb. It's carved. It's an orn carving in St. Canis's Cathedral. So he would have started to build his bishop's palace up around where St. Canis Cathedral is today. So it's just on what was the Irish town side of Kilkenny. That is one of my favorite places in Kilkenny. It's got this big round tower and it's got a beautiful Church of Ireland building there and now some really interesting graves. Every time I'm in town, I stop off at St. Canis's and you can go up the tower and you can look all over Kilkenny, but I'm not one for views because I can't see anyway, so it's just all a big blur. But to be in the ground on the grounds of St. Canis is magical. I have to go and specifically root out Dilledred's grave when I'm there next because I've never stopped at it. But I'll stop, but I won't. I'll give a little kick to his monument.
- [55:21]
Maddy Pelling
Well, exactly. Yeah. I mean, it's so telling, isn't it, that he is remembered and commemorated in the landscape in a way that the women aren't. So yeah, for me it'll be drinks and dinner with the gals and nothing more. But. But fascinating. Thank you so much for telling me this history. I feel like we've been able to get so close to these people from 700 years ago and to really get inside some of their inner worlds, their psyche, the things that made them afraid, that made them hopeful and ambitious. And as usual, we've found the real humans at the heart of the story and I think that's fascinating. So thank you for listening to this episode. If you have enjoyed it, you can get in touch with us as ever. So if you want to tell us ideas for episodes, if you want to tell us what we're doing, well, if you want to say something incredibly horrible, possibly don't. The email address is afterdarkistoryhit.com and if you are looking for more medieval history, then you must go and check out Gone Medieval, our sister podcast from History Hit, hosted by Elena Jarniger and Matt Lewis.
- [56:34]
Unknown
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Maddy Pelling
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Maddy Pelling
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Maddy Pelling
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