← After Dark: Myths, Misdeeds & the Paranormal
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- [00:00]
Anthony Delaney
Hi, we're your hosts Anthony Delaney and Maddy Pelling. And if you would like After Dark Myths, Misdeeds and the Paranormal ad free and get early access, sign up to.
- [00:10]
Maddy Pelling
History Hit with a History Hit subscription. You can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries with top history presenters and enjoy a new release every week.
- [00:21]
Anthony Delaney
Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe. You can trust podcasts to deliver results for your business. 80% of podcast listeners say they'll consider a brand recommendation by their favorite host. Even more impressive, 88% have taken action because of a podcast ad. If you're looking to connect with highly engaged audiences, now's the time to dive in. Download podcast Pulse 2024 for all the latest insights and see how podcast ads can drive real results for you.
- [00:55]
Maddy Pelling
Hello and welcome to After Dark. I'm Maddie.
- [00:58]
Anthony Delaney
And I'm Anthony.
- [00:59]
Maddy Pelling
And while the Christmas holidays are still ongoing, the snow is falling. Here's hoping. We're taking a break and we're bringing you some of our favorite episodes from the first ever full year of After Dark. It has been completely magical, a complete whirlwind. It has been a rollercoaster. What other cliches can I say? It's been. It's been wild, hasn't it, Anthony?
- [01:24]
Anthony Delaney
It has been wild. But listen, it's nothing compared to the year we have in store for you. 2025 is just around the corner and my book is also coming out. Anyway, coming up in January, we've got episodes about the final days of Rasputin, about Mary Queen of Scots, about the Great Fire of London. I'd forgotten about all of these. These are good episodes, actually, and lots more.
- [01:45]
Maddy Pelling
We have to do an end of year review every time because Anthony cannot remember a single topic we've done. We record it is over and he forgets it. So this is what we'll be doing at the end of our Christmas holidays. Sitting down and looking at the list of things we've done during the year that Anthony has forgotten about.
- [02:01]
Anthony Delaney
But what, Maddy Pelling, are we listening to today?
- [02:04]
Maddy Pelling
Well, Anthony P. Delaney. I don't know what the P's for, Patrick. I'm gonna take an. I was gonna take an educated guess, but then I thought that might be problematic to do that.
- [02:12]
Anthony Delaney
You gotta guess, Patrick.
- [02:13]
Maddy Pelling
I was, funnily enough. And now I know today's episode is number 11. It was quite an early one that we did.
- [02:20]
Anthony Delaney
Wow.
- [02:21]
Maddy Pelling
And we are heading up to the Highlands of Scotland in search of none other than the Loch Ness monster.
- [02:28]
Anthony Delaney
There was loads to the. I was like, God, I don't want to do this episode. I don't care about the Loch Ness Monster. But actually, what was really interesting was some of the history, the broader history that came about as a result of it. So the history of newspaper reporting, amateur photography, for instance, and a history of monsters, too, and Maddie knows so much more about that than I do, but really came through in this episode. And it was quite interesting dating the whole way back to St. Columba and, you know, we even got into talking about fascism across Europe. So it really was a proper history episode.
- [02:58]
Maddy Pelling
It really was. And we did have to fight to do it. And, you know, episode 11, pretty early on, me and Anthony almost parted ways over his complete resistance to do this. But, no, it's a great episode. It's really exciting. But for now, sit back with a glass of mulled wine and enjoy.
- [03:19]
Anthony Delaney
The year is 1933. America is in the grips of one of the worst years. In the Great Depression, a Japanese scientist demonstrated one of the most significant advancements in the development of weaponry, unveiling a machine gun that could fire 1,000 shots per minute. And Albert Einstein renounced his German citizenship owing to the rise of the Nazi party. On the 15th of April of that same year, the Inverness Courier tells us Aldi Mackay, a local businessman, and his wife, who remained nameless in the article, though they do point out that she had a university education, were motoring along the north shore of the great Loch Ness. As Mr. And Mrs. Mackay pass close to abreaken Pierre, they noticed a significant disturbance in the water. The article which reported their encounter recorded it as a tremendous upheaval of water. It was Mrs. Mackay who saw it first, three quarters of a mile from the shore. She screamed. Then horror etched on her face in concern. Mr. MacKay pulled over, trying to ascertain the cause of his wife's distress. She did not speak, however, only pointed out across the lock. He followed the direction of her shaking finger. And then, as if emerging into their very reality from the darkest depths of a nightmare, he saw, he was sure, the monster.
- [05:10]
Maddy Pelling
Hello and welcome to After Dark Myths, Misdeeds and the paranormal. I'm Dr. Maddy Pelling.
- [05:16]
Anthony Delaney
And I'm Dr. Anthony Delaney.
- [05:18]
Maddy Pelling
And today we're talking about the origins of the Loch Ness Monster.
- [05:23]
Anthony Delaney
We are. And I had to have my fingers broken in order to enter into this dialogue slightly. I mean, I'm joking, but a few weeks back, we had a planning meeting with our lovely producer, Charlotte Freddy, and they suggested possibly looking at an episode on either the Loch Ness Monster or Bigfoot. And I was like, not Bigfoot. I'm not doing an episode on a big hairy teddy. It's just not happening. But I have to admit, even with Loch Ness, I wasn't so keen. I'd always kind of found the monster side of things to be more difficult to pin down. Usually when we look at topics on this podcast or for, you know, particular murder cases in the past on After Dark, we examine the events or the supposed events in some cases in the context of their time, which is monsters defy that type of scrutiny. They persist across thousands of years, iterations and stories, and they become. I said this to Maddie before, they become almost ahistorical in this way. So I was reluctant, but I'm actually really glad that I was persuaded because what you find when you look at the different contexts of some of these sightings is really valuable in telling us what's happening in Britain and in the world at this time too.
- [06:31]
Maddy Pelling
It is really interesting. And for me, I see or I saw, and I think we're gon. Today's episode might sort of change our perception a little bit. But I always thought of the lot less monster as a sort of conspiracy theory, as you say, ahistorical, not necessarily associated with a particular time period or a particular person even. And I've been reading a lot about conspiracy theories recently for a new book project. And one thing that's becoming clear to me is that they have their own social, political implications. And I suspect the Loch Ness monster will not be different in that regard.
- [07:08]
Anthony Delaney
You and I are both big fans of the Highlands and Loch Ness and their surrounding areas. For those listeners who potentially haven't been, can you give us an idea of what it looks like, what it feels like up when you're in and around Loch Ness?
- [07:23]
Maddy Pelling
Sure. So, yeah, for anyone who has been to the Highlands, it's the most remarkable landscape. And I've been there a couple of times and for me, it doesn't really feel like anywhere else in Britain. It's quite unique. And I think that's probably part of the appeal of the story of the Loch Ness monster and of Loch Ness more generally. You know, it's the. I think it's the biggest of the lochs in the Highlands. It has more water in it than all of the English and Welsh lakes put together. Which, when you stop and think about.
- [07:53]
Anthony Delaney
That, I know I'd never really.
- [07:54]
Maddy Pelling
It's actually mind blowing.
- [07:55]
Anthony Delaney
I'd never really understood it like that, but it's actually really important, even geographically, let alone with all of this, you know, story and folklore that's built up around it.
- [08:04]
Maddy Pelling
Yeah. And with the Loch Ness Monster in particular, I think this issue of a lack of extended archive. And we will talk about some of the archival material that is associated with this story, but it's difficult to get to grips with it because of the scale of the landscape and the invisibility of the monster within that. It feels a little bit abstract. The evidence that we do have is often sort of blurry, mid 20th century photographs. And finding this beast historically in this very large, very intimidating, completely vast landscape is something of a sort of intellectual challenge. I think it feels almost immaterial or difficult to sort of excavate from the reality of the place. For anyone who hasn't been. The loch is surrounded by these huge mountainous hills and it's incredibly long and thin. And it just. There's a sense when you're there, I think, of possibility. You think about how deep that water is, and it's no surprise that people do imagine things there.
- [09:06]
Anthony Delaney
It's very evocative, this idea of this almost black water that is vast and deep, and then these trees that are surrounding the lake that are then framed by the hills in the background. And it actually reminds you that this is an ancient landscape. And as a result, it. I was surprised to find that the story of a monster in the area is actually quite ancient too. So the first time that there is a report of a monster in and around this area is not actually in Loch Ness itself, it's in the River Ness, which obviously is close by and adjoins, but it was in 565 and it was Saint Columba. So this is linked to religious ideas and religious growth and the growth of Christianity in Scotland. But it was a monster and it was in that very close proximity to Loch Ness. Nonetheless. Now, this particular monster was known in the area and it had attacked swimmers and they were apparently out trying to spread the word, as they did, as the early Christians did. And this one particular swimmer, don't ask me why he was in the river, but he was under the instructions of Saint Columba. And a monster emerged and tried to, as a monster will do, eat the swimmer. And it was Columba, St. Columba, to give him his full title, he entered the river and made the sign of the cross and dared the monster to go no further. And the monster fled.
- [10:30]
Maddy Pelling
See, to me, Anthony, that story absolutely speaks to this idea of the wilderness beyond the civilized space that human beings occupy. You know, this is a land that St. Columba and others are trying to Christianize. They're trying to colonize it with their religious beliefs. And the likelihood that this event actually happened is 100% slim, right?
- [10:51]
Anthony Delaney
Oh, yes, sure. That's what I was going to say.
- [10:53]
Maddy Pelling
Okay. You're really investing in this, Right? Okay.
- [10:55]
Anthony Delaney
I believe now.
- [10:57]
Maddy Pelling
So, you know, for me, at least. Yes. It's a story about the triumph of early Christianity over the untamed landscape and the peoples of the Highlands.
- [11:08]
Anthony Delaney
Yeah. It's metaphorically saying, forget about your folklore, forget about the mythology, forget about the stories that have populated this landscape. We're here now and we've got these crosses and we're gonna make a difference.
- [11:19]
Maddy Pelling
Yeah. And, you know, that's so interesting to me that it's Columba making the sign of the cross that banishes this monster. And it's a sort of, you know, if the cross is the powerful emblem, the powerful symbol of Christianity, then the monster in that story is a symbol of this folkloric, ancient pagan world. But this isn't the only historic sighting that we have of the monster, is it? So when's the next one?
- [11:43]
Anthony Delaney
Well, actually, there's quite a big gap. The next one doesn't appear until the late 19th century, 1871, I believe, and it was seen by a Mr. MacKenzie. We don't have much details about this particular sighting. It wasn't taken particularly seriously at the time, but Mr. McKenzie apparently saw something wriggling and churning up the water. Now, I mean, that could be a multitude of things. I guess there's not. I guess it was noteworthy enough for people to record it, but it didn't cause a flurry, which was actually surprising in the Victorian era. Actually, I'm surprised more people didn't flock. It's also a bit random, if you think about it, because Columba's sighting is doing a job. It's fulfilling a function. It's talking about that Christianization that's spreading across Europe and particularly across Scot Scotland in this instance. The later sightings, which we'll talk about in just a moment, also fulfill a function. I think MacKenzie's in 1871, it's hard for me to decipher exactly what the function of that sighting is. Potentially something got to do with tourism because, you know, we know people are traveling at this time. They are spending time by locks. They are, you know, heading to the Lake District, heading to the Highlands. This is a tourist destination as it was in the 18th century.
- [12:53]
Maddy Pelling
I suppose we can look at it then as part of that romanticisation of Scotland that happens. I'm thinking about Queen Victoria bringing back tart and everything that kind of goes with that. And this culture of the Scottish Highlands that's sort of reborn in British and specifically in English culture. And, yes, tourism being a part of that. And I wonder if what Mackenzie's doing actually is piquing people's interest, drawing them into the landscape and saying, hey, look, there are things to be discovered here that are not yet properly understood. It's a way of bringing a bit of ambiguity or magic to a place that people are visiting with more regularity.
- [13:31]
Anthony Delaney
I think that's definitely a possibility. I think the other possibility is we have retrospectively put Mackenzie's account into a line of sightings that it doesn't actually fit into. All he says, or all the words that we have available to us is that he saw something wriggling and churning up the water. I mean, if somebody said that to me, I wouldn't be like, well, you know what that is? That's a prehistoric monster that's lasted the ages and it's now living in Loch Ness. It's like, well, okay, you saw.
- [13:55]
Maddy Pelling
It's a block drain.
- [13:56]
Anthony Delaney
Yeah, yeah. Or you saw, like, a collection of eels or something. But nonetheless, it has now been conscripted into this larger story of sightings. But things change, because in 1933, which is significant in its own right, and we'll come to that, in 1933, things really, really ramp up. And so, as we said in that opening part of the account by the Courier, the Mackays had seen this monster, in similar ish language, rolling and plunging in Loch Ness. So, you know, if we think about what Mackenzie apparently saw, wriggling and churning, now the Mackays are seeing something rolling and plunging. So it's this disturbance on the water.
- [14:35]
Maddy Pelling
And when we think about what that might actually look like in the water, it's helpfully ambiguous, isn't it? What are you actually seeing there moving in the water? I mean, if you look out across any body of water, it's really difficult when the light's hitting it and there's movement to make out anything in the water. You know, if you were standing on the edge of, like, Windermere or something, it's hard to see a duck that's a few meters away. So this doesn't necessarily ring true. This seems maybe like wishful thinking. But go on, tell me a little bit more about Mackay's claim.
- [15:05]
Anthony Delaney
Well, and that's interesting, because Mackenzie's claim, just to go back to 1871, briefly Mackenzie's claim kind of stops there, more or less, but the Mackay's then elaborate slightly and they say that this monster had the body, which they're now claiming was a monster, had the body of a whale. And as it turned in the water, the water was cascading and churning like a shimmering or a simmering cauldron. So, you know, we're adding this drama to it, but I think the key element there is the body of the whale. So we have more descriptions of the water, but the body of the whale is new, and that is not something that MacKenzie saw in 1871, but it is something that the Mackays are describing in 1933.
- [15:43]
Maddy Pelling
And I think this is something that is presumably unique to Loch Ness in that it's such a huge, vast body of water and there's this idea that it was potentially joined to bigger oceans in prehistoric times, and therefore that some of the huge sea monsters that people imagine from the prehistoric world may have survived in some way and endured in the lake today. Right. So they're kind of tapping into that idea.
- [16:09]
Anthony Delaney
Yeah. I wonder if they are aware of that idea. But certainly that has grown up around the mythology now.
- [16:14]
Maddy Pelling
And, of course, you know, the late. We're talking here, early 20th century. But thinking about MacKenzie's vision in the late 19th century, of course, is tied as well into the age of fossil hunting. We've got Mary Anning on the south coast, you know, the Jurassic coastline, where people are literally finding the remains, the fossilised remains of real monsters, essentially real things that lived in the sea and they're being put on display in London. People are flocking to see these incredible creatures. And I wonder as well, if by 1933 there's still that interest in fossil hunting and in potentially one day finding a living specimen.
- [16:54]
Anthony Delaney
I think certainly the fossils hold some interest and intrigue, and particularly in 1933, because we know this even in our own lifetimes, experts, scientists, will come out and say, actually, we got the look of that monster wrong. We've now managed with modern technology to put a far more accurate picture together of what it might have looked like. But think about this situation in 1933, where they're putting flesh and bones on these skeletons and on these fossils, and actually what they're coming up with is, in some cases, not particularly as accurate as we have an image for it now, which means there's a gap between the fossil and the former reality. And human imagination is maybe stepping in to fill that gap, particularly in this.
- [17:37]
Maddy Pelling
Case, and that could be potentially lucrative as well, and that's something we need to bear in mind, I think, with these 20th century sightings in particular. So we have the Mackays with the water cascading off this huge whale like form that's moving through the lake. But this isn't the only sighting in 1933. It's quite a year for Loch Ness, isn't it?
- [17:56]
Anthony Delaney
It's a busy, busy time. Let's get on to 31 July. On 31 July, one Mr. G. Spicer of 10 Temple Gardens, Golders Green, NW11, perhaps having been aware of the coverage of the Mackay sightings three months earlier, wrote to the Inverness Courier with his own startling tale. Dear sir, he began, I have just returned from a motoring holiday in Scotland and am writing to inform you that On Saturday afternoon, the 22nd of July last, I saw the nearest approach to a dragon or prehistoric animal that I have ever seen in my life. It crossed my road about 50 yards ahead and appeared to be carrying us small lamb or animal of some kind. It seemed to have a long neck which moved up and down and the body was fairly big with a high back. When we got to the spot, it had probably disappeared into the lock, length from 6ft to 8ft and very ugly. I am wondering if you can give me any information about it and am enclosing a stamped addressed envelope, anticipating your kind reply. Whatever it is, and it may be a land and water animal, I think it should be destroyed as I am not sure whether I had been quite close to it. I should have cared to have tackled it. It is difficult to give a better description as it moves so swiftly and the whole thing was so sudden there is no doubt that it exists. Yours, etc. G. Spicer.
- [19:49]
Maddy Pelling
I'm Professor Susannah Lipscomb. And on Not Just the Tudors From History Hit we do admittedly cover quite a lot of Tudors, from the rise of Henry VII to the death of Henry viii, from Anne Boleyn to her daughter Elizabeth I. But we also do lots that's not Tudors, murderers, mistresses, pirates and witches. Clues in the title really. So follow not just the Tudors from History Hit wherever you get your podcast. So we've now escalated from a whale to a dragon carrying its prey down into the loch. How was this sighting received at the time, Anthony? I mean, it seems it's certainly a more thorough sighting. There's an account of, you know, the, the anatomy of this creature and it's crossing a road, so it's leaving the loch and walking around the Highlands is G. Spicer, is he taken seriously in the newspaper?
- [20:55]
Anthony Delaney
He is not really. I mean, I think it's really important for us to remember that although some of these claims might be authentic, in that they believe they have seen them. We are talking about 1933, and there was a healthy dose of skepticism around even that this is not something that people were opening the Inverness Courier and going, well, this solves it, guys. We now have to accept that this is true. You know, like, people were tuned in, they were very skeptical about this at the time. And they also become more and more skeptical, I think, when the likes of Mr. Spicer starts to do the newspaper rounds and gives quite a few interviews, because there's an element of fame that goes along with this sighting.
- [21:36]
Maddy Pelling
You know, it strikes me as well that the newspapers themselves are playing an absolute key role in disseminating these stories, these sightings. You can sell your story to the papers. You know, you're going to get attention. You know, it might be lucrative. Does this encourage more people to come forward?
- [21:53]
Anthony Delaney
It does, because I think we'll talk about that in just a second. What also happens is you see that Spicer ends up in the Times, so that's a reputable newspaper. He's also on the front cover of the Daily Express, I think it is, with the headline, loch Ness Horror Seen on Land. So this is also kind of a new element to the myth that the Loch Ness Monster can potentially come onto land. And actually, that's more frightening, right, because it can follow you, it can come after you. It's this amphibious prehistoric thing, and there's a picture of Mr. Spicer on the front page of the newspaper. So, you know, this is calling attention. People are now becoming more and more aware of these sightings and the people who are claiming the sightings.
- [22:34]
Maddy Pelling
I wonder as well, if we think about the context of 1933, and there's obviously a feeling of unease growing across Europe. There's the rapid rise of nationalism and fascism that's going on. There's something about Spicer's account, the fact that this is now more of a threatening monster. This isn't something that's just lurking in the shadows of this one very deep lake in the Highlands, but it's coming onto the land and he actually calls for it to be killed. He calls it very ugly, and he thinks it should be executed or shot. You know, it's not something that's just lurking in the shadows of this very deep, isolated loch in the Highlands, but it's actually coming onto the land. And part of me sees that as maybe part of the culture of hunting in Scotland. Hunting, it can become a sport. But also there's something deeply unsettling and uncanny about the fact that it now is being apparently reported as coming onto the land. And I wonder if that taps into the political, the social moment happening in Britain. There's something about the 30s that it feels like impending doom is coming. And there's nothing quite like the feeling of impending doom as a sort of harbinger of that crawling, slithering out of the water in Scotland and, you know, potentially coming, making its way down to England.
- [23:58]
Anthony Delaney
Yes, I absolutely agree. I think there is something about threat. And however conscious that link might have been, it was what was going through my mind as I was reading all of this. It's impossible to divorce what's happening across Europe, in Germany in particular, from these ideas of threat, monstrous incursions and frightening nightmare type scenarios. It's also interesting, I mean, just on a very superficial level, the things that Mr. Spicer did and didn't see. So, for instance, wasn't quite sure of some details, but he knew there was a lamb on its back and this kind of idea of lamb sacrifice and the innocent and, you know, and it's.
- [24:41]
Maddy Pelling
The same religious imagery that is associated with St. Columba as well. And it's fascinating to me that once again the Loch Ness Monster is being portrayed as sort of the enemy of morality, the enemy of civilized society, of Christianity. It's many centuries after this initial story is born and is tied into Christianity that once again we're seeing that imagery come up.
- [25:07]
Anthony Delaney
And what tends to happen now if we are in Scotland, if we are in the media industry at the time, is we have, okay, there's some anecdotal things about some monsters that might be in Loch Ness. Then we start to hear some sightings that are covered in the media. So we have the Mackay's and Mr. Spicer and we're linking that to some maybe historical anecdotal things that have gone on in the past. But I think what really starts to push this forward is photographic evidence, shall we use that word quite loosely, but that also appears for the first time in 1933. And I have provided, because I'm so generous, I've provided us with a picture taken by a man called Hugh Gray, which was taken, as I say, in 1933, on the 12th of November, to be precise. I know listeners will have a specific image in their head. It is not that image of the head poking up out of the water. That's a different photo. It's referred to as the surgeon's photo. This is a far less a specific image. I had never seen it before. Maddy, I am gonna give you the glorious task of trying to describe this blurry, grainy black and white image that I see in front of me.
- [26:21]
Maddy Pelling
I mean, where to start? Okay. It is a close up of a body of water. It's black and white. It is, as Anthony says, it's very blurry. It's very grainy. In the centre of the image there is something upsetting the water. It looks like there's something in the water. The water is moving in a strange way to me. It almost looks like someone's thrown a heavy object into the water and the water is sort of splashing up around it.
- [26:47]
Anthony Delaney
Would you ever look at this and go, oh my God, it's a monster.
- [26:50]
Maddy Pelling
It looks to me like a small wave created by throwing an object into the water.
- [26:56]
Anthony Delaney
Oh my God. Yeah, it does a bit. I haven't seen that.
- [26:58]
Maddy Pelling
I see what you mean. Yeah. I don't think that people would have taken this particularly seriously. I mean, it doesn't even give a sense of the anatomy of the Loch Ness Monster monster potentially. I mean, I guess on the left hand side there's maybe the hint of some kind of fin. I don't buy it. But what I do think is interesting is as you say this, the bringing in of photography as evidence and therefore the Loch Ness monster, you know, sort of tie it in to the history of photography people, and not just the history of photography, but the history of people taking their own private personal photographs that are then used in the news. And of course for us today, it's incredibly easy. If we attend any kind of event or see anything that's newsworthy, we just whip our phones out of our pocket and start recording. And we can maybe sell or give that to a news distributor to be used on the TV to be used on social media. But when we think of 1933, it's fairly unusual that people are taking their own photographs that end up in the papers. And I think the Loch Ness monster is really leading the way in terms of that kind of journalism that's being done by ordinary people.
- [28:08]
Anthony Delaney
I think that's really astute. Actually, I hadn't looked at it like that. It is very groundbreaking in that sense. And again, this is why I'm glad we're talking about this topic. Because there is something to be mined out of this, despite my earlier skepticism. I mean, by the way, I still don't believe in the Loch Ness monster. But something to be mined historically from this, and this continues into the following year in 1934, is so concentrated really when you think about it, these events that are happening around the 1930s, it.
- [28:35]
Maddy Pelling
Almost becomes, becomes a sort of hysteria, doesn't it, that people, once the initial sighting by the Mackays has happened, people are flocking to Loch Ness to try and get a glimpse of it because it's going to bring them fame, it's going to get the photographs they're taking in the papers and it's the opportunity to identify the truth, the so called truth behind an ancient mystery. And people can't resist that.
- [29:03]
Anthony Delaney
Then in 1934 we have Arthur Grant who sees a monster and I think listeners might identify some of the features that he describes. He sees a monster with a long neck, small head and a monstrous body, but not in the lake. It's crossing the road in front of him around the lake on the 5th of January at 1am in the morning. So again, it's dark, there is this. But it's just interesting to hear some of those identifiable features coming forward. Now in this description, there was also a veterinary student who described it as a cross, who apparently saw the Loch Ness Monster and described it as a cross between a seal and a plesiosaur, which I don't even really know what a plesiosaur is, but I'm going to Google it. And again, to have this kind of veterinary student stamp of approval is quite interesting for people, I'm guessing at the time.
- [29:52]
Maddy Pelling
It's fascinating the way that people build up their evidence and how they make themselves seem viable, to seem reliable, the fact that they describe the anatomy in detail. We have interestingly here another sighting of the monster crossing the road. And again, it's this strange juxtaposition of the ancientness of the monster itself and the modernity of the road, the modernity of the photographs. This very much feels like something that's stepping out of a much earlier time and colliding with the modern world and causing all these kind of, of cultural dissonances that people are finding this incredibly compelling but also incredibly disconcerting that this monster is revealing itself now at this moment in the 30s. And yeah, of course, the veterinary student, I mean, I'd love to know their motivation, why they felt the need to report a sighting, whether they really believed they'd seen something or whether they were very much jumping on this bandwagon, hoping to make it a little bit of money, selling their story to the newspaper. But it absolutely does lend the story, at least in the media's eyes, some level of legitimacy, I think.
- [31:07]
Anthony Delaney
And don't forget the crack element, as in, like, of course, a veterinary student is gonna be up around Loch Ness and be like, here, lads, wouldn't it be gray crack if I said that there was this thing that I saw, how hilarious would that be? And then they talk about it for the next 20 years, and here we are talking about it on a podcast in 2023. But it then, it gets to a point, there's so many of these sightings that it gets to a point that somebody goes, right, lads, we need to actually measure this and we need to try and record something that's going on. We need to get a handle on some of these sightings that are happening up in the Highlands. So this brings us to the next part of the story. Sir Edward Mortborough Mountain, 1st Baronet, had made his name and fortune as the founder of the East Eagle Star Insurance Company. A marine insurance specialist, he had first come to prominence by refusing to insure the Titanic's maiden voyage. However, by 1934, he was willing to take a risk on his reputation and launched the first ever substantial investigation into the Loch Ness monster. Mountain employed 20 men to sit beside Loch Ness with box cameras. The men were given binoculars and assumed strategic positions across the lock from 9am to 6pm each day for five weeks, beginning on 13 July 1934. Mountain paid them each two pounds per week only, equal to an average wage for one day's labour for a skilled tradesman. As an extra incentive, however, an additional £10.50 was offered for a successful picture. Over 21 pictures were obtained. One typical example is a blurred, shadowy image of a lonesome loch not far from the shore. There is a regular line of black marks that could be the backbone of an enormous monster, or, if you can imagine it, a tiny, grainy photograph of an irregular series of ripples across a lake.
- [33:12]
Maddy Pelling
I think there are two things to say here. First is that Mountain, to me, represents one of those incredibly wealthy men in the 19th, 20th century who is able to push all of his money into monster hunting. I love it.
- [33:28]
Anthony Delaney
It's just like me. That's exactly what I do with all my money.
- [33:30]
Maddy Pelling
It's what you do on the weekends. Absolutely. The second thing is, do you think that Mountain and the men that he hires, are they really expecting to take a photograph of a real animal or are they planning to fake it?
- [33:50]
Anthony Delaney
Okay, I think it's a really good question. I don't think they're planning to fake it because the quality of the 21 pictures that were obtained are absolutely abysmal. It's just blurriness, it's just water, it's just disturbances on the lake. I also think it's really interesting that they chose between 9am and 6pm to be there when actually the other sightings are taking place at night. So that doesn't really add up. But, you know, that was a planning flaw, as far as I can see.
- [34:17]
Maddy Pelling
More money than sense, some might say.
- [34:19]
Anthony Delaney
Yeah. I mean, I also think it's really interesting that he probably exploited some of the local people by paying them so little, £2 a week, which was equal to one day's work, and they were there, you know, every day for five weeks.
- [34:31]
Maddy Pelling
But it also, I mean, that also talks to the fact that they were willing to do that because the prestige that was promised if you managed to take one of these photos, presumably it would make your fortune. If you manage to actually get a legitimate looking photograph of the Loch Ness Monster, you're going to be set for life. So it was, I guess he's exploiting them, but he's offering them an opportunity that they really believe is possible.
- [34:53]
Anthony Delaney
Therefore, I wonder only because these are local people and in my experience, local people are the most adept at buying into and opting out of these types of legends and myths and folklore. It's useful to them when it's useful and it's not useful when it's not. I have a feeling, again, this is just an instinct based on some of these records, that actually the local men are entering into it for. Yes, money. Yes. The possibility of earning 10 pounds 50 pence as an additional boon, which, by the way, nobody earns, Nobody gets the £10.50 because it has to be a successful photo. That was the criteria. So I think maybe these are local men who are up for a bit of a punt and they might be able to get 10 quid by getting a decent photo. They're like, well, I know at this time the local otters come out or whatever. I'm talking about sea life now or pond life or loch life. Like, I know what I'm talking about. I don't even know if there's otters there, but you know what I mean, you know, they may have used their local knowledge to capture some of these things and try and fob it off as an image. But later, well, same year, but a few months later, there does emerge something which I think lasts until this day as the most convincing, shall we say, and the most certainly iconic photo of the Loch Ness Monster, supposedly of the Loch Ness Monster, again taken in 1934 and it's known as the Surgeon's photo. And we have all seen this photo. It is the photo where it seems that there is that long, thin neck with the small head, as described by some of the people who are seeing this monster in 1933 emerging from the waters. And it very much looks like there is something coming out of the water. The water's rippling all around it. And this was on the front page of the Daily Mail and I think it was so arresting and has captured our imaginations. It has lasted to this day.
- [36:50]
Maddy Pelling
This is a real explosion at this moment, isn't it? It brings huge amounts of tourism, huge global attention. It's called the Surgeon's photo because the taker, Robert Kenneth Wilson, is a surgeon. Is that right?
- [37:02]
Anthony Delaney
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [37:03]
Maddy Pelling
So, again, we have the stamp, the seal, in terms of social status. We have, you know, he's seen as a legitimate witness, he's someone to be trusted and someone who would recognise anatomy and be able to identify something accurately, I guess, as well.
- [37:18]
Anthony Delaney
Yeah. What's incredible is the power it's had to endure. I mean, if you say to me, proof or evidence of the Loch Ness Monster, it is the first thing that comes in to my mind. I'm not saying I necessarily count it as definitive proof or evidence, I don't. But it certainly is the first piece, the first image that pops into my mind. So go and have a look at that. If you're not 100% familiar with what we're talking about, you will recognise it as soon as you see it.
- [37:43]
Maddy Pelling
It's really iconic. And something that always strikes me about this image and about some of the accounts, actually, is that the monster starts off as being this dragon, it's whale sized, it's colossal. And then later on, it's compared to a seal. And when we see the photograph supposedly of it, I mean, it could be a duck.
- [38:02]
Anthony Delaney
Yeah.
- [38:02]
Maddy Pelling
It's tiny.
- [38:03]
Anthony Delaney
Yeah, yeah. Or it could be a person's arm coming out of the water. It could be a multitude of things, but this was the thing, because a, it's very clearly coming out of the water and again, it's that encroaching thing emerging from the depths that's quite captivating. And it also matches some of the descriptions that have gone before. And I think that's key because it's linking up the mythology to the visual proof, I suppose.
- [38:27]
Maddy Pelling
Yeah. And I think there are lots of theories that Abound about how this photograph was made and the truth behind it. And I think just because it's a photograph does not mean it's a reliable account of an event or of a sighting of something. And it's so fascinating. But let's get back to monsters. What is it about monsters that keep people coming back? Even today, people go to Loch Ness hoping to see the Loch Ness Monster. There are people who believe it's real, there are people still looking for it. Why?
- [38:57]
Anthony Delaney
Why? It's a good question. I mean, the etymology of the word monster. Etymology. Here we go. Here's the PhD is coming into use.
- [39:04]
Maddy Pelling
Yeah. This is the start of any academic paper. We have the definition of the word. Give it to me.
- [39:10]
Anthony Delaney
From Latin, it's monstrare, meaning to demonstrate, or monere, to warn. I think that's really interesting. Right, like to demonstrate or to warn. That's what a monster is supposed to do.
- [39:23]
Maddy Pelling
And that ties into what we were discussing earlier about this huge increase in sightings in the 1930s. At a moment when Europe is on tenterhooks, when there's huge social tension, political tension, there's a feeling of uneasiness growing in Britain. Everyone here is watching what's happening in Germany with increasing anxiety. The Loch Ness Monster, to me, feels like a harbinger of doom, essentially. It does seem. Appear to be a warning. It's coming out of the water to shine a light, I guess, to point towards the danger that is fast approaching.
- [40:01]
Anthony Delaney
Monsters become a social tool, don't they? In that way, they are fulfilling a function that kind of embodies the cultural or psychological characteristics that societies maybe find it hard to articulate or acknowledge. It becomes the shadow over one's shoulder, slightly.
- [40:18]
Maddy Pelling
I think that's true. And I think as well, the relationship that the Loch Ness Monster has to Christianity in particular, and that it's used as a visual and symbolic opposition to good Christian morals. And there's something so ancient and deep about the fear of the water that these locks are incredibly deep, they're incredibly wide, incredibly long. They're huge bodies of water that are incredibly dangerous if you don't know what you're doing. And again, this idea of monsters is a warning, as, you know, a literal signpost, to say, do not go here. You know, here there be monsters. It's a sort of classic trope.
- [40:53]
Anthony Delaney
And yet the irony is, and you're absolutely right, do not go here, but actually do come here and stay in our boarding house and go to our cafes and get some sandwiches and there's Some Nessie teddies over there. And you want to have this T shirt that says, I saw the Loch Ness Monster. It brings tourism to the area. It has given a whole industry to this area in the Highlands, which is incredible.
- [41:16]
Maddy Pelling
Yeah, absolutely. It is an industry. And, you know, in 2014, there were businesses in the Highlands that were actually being offered free advice on how they could cash in on the Loch Ness Monster and, you know, other kind of monstrous myths. And if you walk, even in Edinburgh, you know, in the safety of Lowland Edinburgh, away from the Highlands, if you go up Royal Mile, you'll see endless Loch Ness Monster merchandise. So this is absolutely something that people continue to make money out of and also sorts of ways.
- [41:42]
Anthony Delaney
Yeah. That actual course that you're talking about was called monster marketing. I mean, amazing. It says. It says exactly what we're talking about right there. It's. It's. You need to grab onto this. It's going to help your business. And therefore we need to not so much perpetuate the myth, but make sure that the myth lives on. I guess that's perpetuating the myth, but it is lucrative. It fulfills a very tangible function in the lives of many people in the Highlands and as you say, in Edinburgh generally, in Scottish tourism generally, right up until this day.
- [42:12]
Maddy Pelling
I think for me, the Loch Ness Monster is very much a symbol. It's very much an idea, a concept that has different usefulness at different points. Do you see any value in it today, Anthony? Beyond the commercial value, I guess?
- [42:27]
Anthony Delaney
Yeah, yeah. No. Well, that's what I was going to say. Beyond those people who are benefiting from it financially and commercially, which I think is really worthwhile, everyone needs to make a living, and I think they're doing that with as much integrity and fun. Because, bear in mind, tongue in cheek, as I've said previously, there's nobody better placed to call upon and then push away a myth as the local people. And they deserve to be able to harness that monster for their own needs if they need to. Any other functions beyond that? I don't think so. I mean, it fits into. That's me personally. It fits into this idea of a conspiracy theory which we spoke about at the start of this episode. Right. And I was asking myself, as I researched this episode, why. Why is it important for some people that there is a prehistoric or a version of a prehistoric monster the bottom of this lake in Scotland? And I. And the only reason I could come up with is that if people who believe in this monster are correct, then there are so many other things in the world, the received knowledge that we've been given, that's also incorrect. So if Nessie is down there, prehistoric monsters aren't just with us as fossils or with the collection as a collection of bones. They're with us in flesh and blood and scale and fire breathing and all of these kind of things. So what else have we been misinformed about? And I think that's where the conspiracy comes in for me. There ain't nothing down there but fish and other sea creatures that we know about. But for some people, this is a real thing and they find it really necessary to try to destabilize the information that we are being, as they see it, being fed and being misled with. And I think that tells us something about our own time too, where conspiracy theories are growing, as far as I can tell, politically, socially, culturally, historically and zoologically, as it seems here.
- [44:21]
Maddy Pelling
Absolutely. And I think there is something tantalising and deliciously so about the Loch Ness monster. But there is a wider conversation here about conspiracy theories and I think it will be interesting to see in the next generation or so how Nessie is used in those conversations. If as a imagined creature, it's something that stays with us or drifts back down to those depths, it will be very interesting. Well, thank you very much for listening to this episode of After Dark. We have got some amazing episodes coming up in the new year. Kicking things off with the final days of Rasputin and Mary Queen of Scots. 2025 is going to be pretty exciting. See you next year. Every listener feels like their favorite podcast.
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