Maddie (Podcast Host) (1:56)

In Henry VIII's court, every corridor is like a chessboard. Alliances are struck at supper and broken by sunrise. A misplaced laugh can make an enemy. Into this crossfire steps Katherine Howard, young, dazzling, flirtatious and held in such unreasonably high regard that a fall is almost impossible. Inevitable. It's a fragile world where loyalty becomes tested by oaths and where a memory or a meeting can count as treason. Who profits when such a young queen is killed? The increasingly disturbing king or rivals watching from the shadows. This episode follows the threads of gossip in a merciless world that implicates a teenage queen and all those around her. From the dark heart of the Tudor court. This is after dark, before dawn. The tower runs cold through the stone. Catherine Howard sits awake, listening to the crows gather and the bells toll outside Fingers pressed to the grain of the table, the lieutenant's men wait behind the door. Within, a small fire gutters, a queen's last luxury. Except she is no longer queen. Stripped of titles, her young mind spins from the endless questions she's faced. She's experienced far too much in her short life. In an attempt to make sense of all that's happened. Her memories mix with accusations which come and go like ghosts. A careless youth that became evidence. A young love that became treason. A cousin, Anne Boleyn, faced a similar fate and lies yards from where Catherine now sits. The kingdom calls what comes next justice. It's also called treason. When the key turns, Catherine stands, her final prayers whispered and walks towards the green in silence. The only choice she's now able to make.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (4:27)

Hello, and welcome back to After Dark. My name is Anthony.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (4:29)

And I'm Maddie.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (4:30)

And today we are giving you what you want, which is more Tudors. We know that you love our Tudor history episodes. We have had Philippa Gregory recently, of course. We also constantly have the brilliant Tracy Borman back.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (4:42)

Constantly. It sounds like you're sick of it.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (4:44)

No. Never sick of Tracy Borman. Never sick of Tracy Bormann. She's one of our favorite guests, like, 100%. And now we have another favorite Tudor historian guest. And that, of course, is proper introduction this time, because you will have heard him in a previous episode where I totally spilled the beans on who we're talking to. And that, of course, is Gareth Russell, who is the historian and author of Young and Damned and the Life and Tragedy of Catherine Howard at the court of Henry viii, here to tell us about the tragic death of Catherine Howard. Welcome to After Dark, Gareth.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (5:13)

Thank you.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (5:13)

Proper introduction this time.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (5:14)

Proper introduction.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (5:16)

This is interesting because when we come to talk about the wives of Henry viii, probably you'll be better placed to answer this. She. She being Catherine Howard, is probably further down the list of the wives that people are most familiar with. Right.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (5:33)

Yeah.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (5:34)

Tell us who she is in this world at this time.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (5:38)

So Catherine is the younger daughter of a younger son of the former Duke of Norfolk.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (5:44)

Oh, my God. The younger daughter of a younger son of the former Duke of Norfolk. So we're not expecting huge things here.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (5:50)

No. So there's a good name, but not a lot of money. Her father, Edmund, was Justice of the Peace, hero the Battle of Flodden, but had never really prospered. The good name only took him so far. She had been sent to live with her step grandmother as a ward, fairly standard among the English aristocracy. And she makes her Court debut in the winter of 1539 to serve as a maid of honour, which is the unmarried ladies in wedding to Henry's incoming fourth wife, Anne of Cleves. Catherine is there a little before her employer. They had expected Anne of Cleves just before Christmas, but she's coming from Germany and the weather is terrible, so she's delayed. She becomes an active Lillian Whitting, if you like, in January of 1540. And at some point, probably around March or Easter, Henry shows an interest in her. The marriage to Anne of Cleves is annulled in July. Catherine becomes queen at the end of July.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (6:40)

Wow.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (6:41)

Yeah, it's very quick. That is very quick than I realized. That is a major part of the ingredient, because she is not stupid. And there's often this poor little Catherine, as if she had no education. And I like to rescue her from the shadow of the axe as best I can. She was an extremely skilled negotiator of etiquette and if you read Tudor etiquette manuals that they were taught from, these are. I mean, they're like the crystal maze. They're so complex. They're a bit like a cryptex, really. You're always having to figure out how things move and who people are. And she wins applause for how deftly she handles it. So she's very aware of the elite that she moves in. There's a bit of debate around her age, but in fact, there. There probably shouldn't be a massive debate on it because of all of Henry's wives, she is the one that we have a specific comment on her age from someone who was pretty well placed to know who was the French ambassador to England, who saw her in several hunting weekends and obviously at court regularly. And he states that she was 18 very firmly. So.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (7:41)

And this is the moment when she marries Henry.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (7:42)

Yes, 1540. He's writing in 1541, but it's about 1540 when he writes. And Henry's what age at this time? 49. So it's a big gap. It's not big enough that people comment on it by contemporary standards, but it is substantial. There's an idea that he was in really terrible health by this point. He's not quite there yet. It's really after her that it accelerates, or actually, probably she gets her first whiff of how bad it will get halfway through the marriage, literally the first whiff. So they marry in summer. She is immediately. The change in mood is palpable. He'd been unhappy in his fourth marriage. He's euphoric in his fifth, the Christmas of 1540, is kept at Hampton Court and you get a real sense when you go there. It is a palace indelibly associated with the peaks and troughs of Catherine's queenship. She wins hands across the board applause for how well she handles that, because she's forced by her husband to host his ex wife, Anne of Cleves, so they can show off to the diplomatic corps how generous Henry is. And Anne's accepted this and she, I mean, she's a masterful, masterful first lady, for want of a better term. And then at length, three quarters of a year after the marriage, the first whiff hits and Henry is very ill at Hampton Court and it goes into lockdown and she is there, but she's not allowed to see him. No one is allowed to come in, no one is allowed to go out. And two of her brothers, Charles and George, now work for the King in his privy chamber. And I would be very surprised if they had not told her how close he had come to death. And so at Easter, so Holy Week, actually Maundy Thursday. So right after Henry has recovered from his Lenten spell of ill health, Catherine reaches out to a former admirer, a former beau that she'd been involved with before she met Henry, who also works for him, called Thomas Culpepper. And they meet in the corridor leading to her private rooms and she gives him a hat and Culpepper makes a joke saying, alas, madam, why did you not do this when you were a maid? Which is, why didn't you do this when you were single? And Catherine gets a bit miffed and doesn't speak to him for a while. But then there's a massive public campaign for the monarchy, a progress through the north which had rebelled against Henry a few years earlier. And this is a policy of honey and vinegar. They will forgive the former surviving rebels, but only on condition that the north publicly prostrates itself to the King. So Catherine is on tour off the north and they're moving between house and house at this point. And she, through her favourite lady in waiting, Lady Rochford, starts to arrange nocturnal meetings with Thomas Culpepper throughout the progress.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (10:14)

A dangerous game.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (10:15)

A dangerous game. And then in August, they reach the quay to the north, Pontefract Castle. And when she is in residence there, she's a long stood there, she's about two weeks at Pontefract. Her ladies in waiting tell her that someone else has arrived, a man called Francis Dereham, who had worked for the step grandmother and had fallen out with her and Catherine and Frances had had a sexual relationship before. There are debates about the nature of that. Certainly there is a long account from Catherine that it was very serious indeed. And her grandmother and her aunt, I say grandmother, step grandmother, such a cumbersome term had her. The dioge of Duchess of Norfolk and the Countess of Bridgewater, from the minute Catherine had become Queen, had tried to keep Francis quiet and they had entered into a sort of hush money deal with him, which is that he would hand over all the love letters that Catherine had sent to him and the poetry he'd written about her, put it in a chest, the Duchess would keep the chest and he would keep the key. So it's sort of like mutually assured destruction.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (11:15)

Oh, wow.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (11:16)

But he very much wanted to work for Catherine and obviously the Duchess and the Countess knew this was a terrible idea. Eventually he got sick of them putting him off and putting him off and so he rode north from London to Pontefrat. So you think of how many times he had an opportunity to think this is a lunatic idea, turn around. And he blackmails her into giving him a job as gentleman usher. And he starts making comments about how well he's known the Queen before. She starts bribing him to be quiet.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (11:41)

It's like this man doesn't live in the Tudor world.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (11:43)

Like look around who Henry VIII is.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (11:46)

Yeah, exactly.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (11:47)

To me, he just could not handle her. I mean, I'll come on to my theories about Frances Derm in a minute, which is again the joy of doing this. And again I will be saying, I know it's thrown around a lot with the term narcissist anyway, so there's a lot brewing. The ladies in Wedding are really irritated because Lady Rochford is now the favorite. That's because she's all the Queen's secrets. Catherine is getting really antsy with her staff because she's sleep deprived, because she's meeting Thomas Culpepper at night, she's threatening to fire the maids who forget her new instructions as she's trying to cover things up. And at the same time Frances Derham is dropping heavy handed hints. And then they get back to London and all of these like little plates are spinning on the top and someone comes in and knocks them over from outside. And it is an evangelical preacher called John Lassels, whose sister had worked for the Dowager Duchess of Norfolk when Catherine was there and knew all about Catherine. And Francis told her brother, who went to the Archbishop of Canterbury and told him and said, from what I understand, they had agreed to marry and they did have sex together, which under contemporary religious law, it means that she was legally ineligible to marry anybody else. The Archbishop of Canterbury, Thomas Cranmer, is a man of deep faith but limited spine. And in a panic, he goes and he leaves a note for Henry at Hampton Court explaining this. Henry orders an inquiry and to the Archbishop's shock, this man is now working for the Queen, her alleged former fiance. And so that's where the investigations begin. So that's a gallop through who Catherine is, isn't it?

Anthony (Podcast Host) (13:16)

So insidious, actually, and insipid in many ways, where you're like the tittle tattle, tell tale, double standards world that this woman enters into. And I was just getting so anxious by proxy, when you're talking about these spinning plates, Gareth, about going, shit, yeah, like already she's into it.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (13:38)

And these men who are pushing her around because they want power now and.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (13:42)

They'Re, you know, they just want to manipulate their partnership.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (13:45)

Frances also cannot, I mean, cannot let her go. I mean, it's really an obsessive relationship from his part.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (13:49)

Well, let's talk about that, because it seems to me that Catherine, more so maybe than Henry's, of the queens, her downfall is her past as much as her present.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (13:59)

Yes, it is, absolutely.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (14:00)

In a way that it isn't necessarily for the other queens. Yes, they bring baggage with them, but it's the events once they're married that kind of lead to that downfall. Will you tell us something a little bit about her past and in particular her sexual past? Because this has been so kind of. It's been made so titillating in her own moments, in her own lifetime, but I mean, it's quite troubling. You talked earlier about her age and she's only 18 by the time she's married to Henry. I'm looking at my notes, I'm looking at the age that she is when she has her first supposed sexual experience with her music teacher. Can you tell us about her relationship to her own sexuality and to men?

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (14:36)

So I pushed back against the idea of them being seen as either child abuse or sexual coercion for a number of reasons. And I still. I suppose you'll have had this yourself. I think you take things out of. Of episodes or books and you think, should I have? I'm not sure. And I had a much more speculative section on Francis in particular, talking about how I think the idea that it was sexually coercive misses the point of why it was dangerous. It was just a dangerous in a different way. And I still think it was probably the right thing to take it out and then leave it because it was so psychological in its basis. So I'll explain my own take on it. So the standard narrative that we have is in about 1536, Catherine embarked upon some kind of sexual entanglement with her music tutor, a man referred to in the documents as Young Mallox. Henry Malox is his name.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (15:29)

And how old is she in this moment?

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (15:30)

She would have been, if 1536 is correct, about 14. Actually. The evidence that we have, because we know that basically the person who identifies this doesn't come into the household and it's very complicated. Another relative joins in. Looking at that timetable, actually, it must have been the spring of 1538. So Catherine would have been about 16 at this point. Mannox would have been probably in his early to mid twenties. Solely because of Young, obviously that is permeable. He could have been a little bit younger. So that separates it from the darkest version because it's all date dependent with Mannix, really, in which case it could have been paedophilic if you move the dates around of her being younger and him being older and also the date earlier. So that's important to acknowledge that that is more based on a date of birth that doesn't work for her and also a chronology that doesn't work for him. But that doesn't mean that simply because it's not the worst case scenario, that it's not a bad scenario. So I think that's important to look at. So they do not have sex. There is, judging from what Mannix said, there's sort of foreplay and digital penetration. That is what he admits to this other woman in the household. And it gets back to Catherine and she breaks it off and he, Mannix, like most douchebags as a crier when he's caught and he's like, but I love you so much. And Catherine's very much of the opinion that's a you problem. So you insulted me and embarrassed me.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (16:54)

Which is quite powerful for, you know, potentially a 16 year old.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (16:57)

I love how she cuts the cord because when she's ready to cut, it's done. And they're both, Frances Dereham and Henry Mannix are criers. Like, I love you so much. I only did it because I love you. And she's like, that is so irrelevant to me.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (17:10)

Which, I mean, I don't want to dismiss a potential power dynamic that's a little bit troubling. And you know, there is an age gap, obviously Our age of consent today is different from, you know, so there's a lot going on here. But to me, what you're saying is that she. She has some ownership over her own fate. Her own. In terms of the context she's living in and in terms of the relationships that she's having. And she is maybe willing and consenting to have some kind of sexual relationship, but then when they overstep, she has enough self power and self awareness to say, no, thank you.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (17:45)

Also, there's an imbalance of class.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (17:47)

Yes.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (17:47)

So she is. She.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (17:48)

She's of the higher class.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (17:50)

But what I will say is it's interesting to paraphrase line from House of the Dragon.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (17:56)

Important text.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (17:57)

Absolutely referenced in the footnotes. Essentially, what she is doing is building a window inside her own prison cell. Because these men will. Yes. Within the dynamic of their relationship, she can say no and she can end it when she wants to, but ultimately it will be them that have the power to destroy her life. So that kind of. Within the minutiae, certainly, but in the broader spectrum of things. Excuse me.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (18:17)

Yes. It's not untroubling.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (18:19)

No, no, it's not untoubling. So with Francis Dereham, I think, again, I always say that narcissism is overused and then I overuse it. But I do really think that I'm going to. I think I would do a podcast episode at some point myself about does he fit. Just to discuss it with listeners. Does it fit the dynamic of a narcissistic relationship? And he really, really does. She ends things with Mannix. Dereham is in the household as a ward. He's the younger son of a wealthy family from Lincolnshire, so he's more on her level. And there does seem to be discussion of marriage. It is consummated. Catherine steals the key from her grandmother's room to make a key so he can visit her. There's sort of picnics he steals, like apples and strawberries, all of which some people present as quite lovely. I don't see it that way. I think really early on you see love bombing with him. So she has no money of her own, as I say, younger daughter, younger son. Francis gives her money to go and, you know, buy silk flowers from a tailor in Lambeth and get clothes. But he then starts. So the first little whisper of that being love bombing rather than loving is that he. It's through her clothes. So Frances goes to the tailor in lambeth, I think Mrs. Johns is her name, and he tells her what to stitch into the clothing. And he stitches floral symbols for unbreakable love. And that's not what Catherine asked her to do.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (19:43)

Intense. Yeah.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (19:45)

So you start to see in her one of the confessions I uncovered that hadn't been published in a long time. There's a paragraph from like, oh, I can so feel her frustration with him where she, you know, he starts talking about marriage and Catherine is trying to politely slow this march to the altar, and he's becoming obsessive and she wants out, I think, and she finds a way out when the King's marriage is announced, because the Queen's household hasn't existed since Jane seymour died in 1537. So this lasts for about a year. And Catherine tells later, she says, all who knew me know how desirous I was to come to court. And she tells him that it's over. He again has a crier.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (20:28)

And I'm so bored of him already.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (20:30)

Like, my God, have to remind myself that Frances Dereham died a really hideous death. And to pepper my remarks with some charity, but he is the author of his own tragedy and other people's, which I have to remind myself.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (20:45)

And I feel we've all had a boyfriend like this, I think, get away from me.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (20:48)

Like, just. Yeah. And I'm crying and you're like, that's sad.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (20:51)

That's a you problem.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (20:52)

But it's not my job to buy you tissues. Yeah, yeah, we're done.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (20:55)

I don't think I've ever even wandered into that territory, to be perfectly honest with you. Yeah, no, no, no, no.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (21:01)

It's sort of the.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (21:02)

My tolerance is low.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (21:03)

Yeah, well, her tolerance is.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (21:04)

Well, that's true. By the sounds of it. Her tolerance is very low, actually.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (21:07)

And I also, when people talk about them, I'm like, please give her the breakup moment. Like, please talk about it. Because her whole life was snatched from her by her husband and these two men. And I love the moment of, like, by the way, she takes them to the same spot to dump them. She takes them in. She takes them in. She's like, do you want to go to the orchard?

Anthony (Podcast Host) (21:26)

I was going to say we need to go to the lake, or the orchard, whatever it is.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (21:29)

The orchard's where I press. Rotten fruit. Francis. So Francis. But Francis is. Cannot seem to accept that she is done. And he says, but I love you. You're my wife. I'm going to leave you my savings, the £100. And she's like, but again, that's what you do. It's marking his territory. Correct. So then she goes to court and she has a bit of a flirtation with Thomas Culpepper. He wants to have sex and she says no, she's not ready. So then he moves on to someone.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (22:01)

Called she really doesn't know herself.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (22:02)

Ye I love Kathryn.

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Anthony (Podcast Host) (24:29)

The other thing that she has in this that I'm seeing throughout these sexual relationships, these emotional relationships and then this desire to get to court is that she is understanding pathways of power.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (24:38)

Yes, yes.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (24:39)

In ways that we don't often acknowledge with women. In the Tudor court, she's going, there's Agency over there.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (24:44)

I'm going over there.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (24:45)

Yes.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (24:45)

You know, or I'm going away from that.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (24:47)

And also she's very beautiful. So that is currency. Yeah. So it, you know, the diary is not there. It's not going to be there. So she has the name, she's her diary. She is her own diary. And she realizes that the younger son of the Lincoln's Lincolnshire gentry is not for her. Also, I think she genuinely is bored of him. And we don't, we never allow these women the right to just be bored. But this is the idea of being subtle to you for my whole earthly life is more than I can bear. And I, I, I just.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (25:17)

Is that what you said in paper?

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (25:21)

I, I don't believe in reincarnation. So I can't risk this.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (25:24)

Yeah. This is not a permanent situation.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (25:29)

I don't get to do this again.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (25:31)

I'm like on a one way ticket here, guys. This is an advanced single ticket.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (25:35)

I can't turn it in.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (25:37)

So I wish you well, but don't ever contact me again. So she does and Thomas Club ever sleep with someone else called Bess Harvey. And Catherine is actually genuinely hurt and she cries in front of the other ladies in waiting about how humiliated she feels. But then the king becomes interested and life moves on to what we discussed earlier.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (25:55)

What is her feeling when Henry becomes interested? Because you know, we're three wives in, four wives in, four wives, four wives in.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (26:01)

At this point, three and a half. He's about to chuck numbers.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (26:04)

Okay, yeah, yeah, okay. Yes, that's true. And you know, there's an obvious pattern.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (26:08)

Yes.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (26:08)

Nothing is ending well for these ladies. Is she thinking, this is the agency that I've been searching for, this is great, or is she thinking, shit, it.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (26:16)

Could be a mixture of both, but I think it's the first one I really do.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (26:20)

Because how are you gonna not be the queen?

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (26:21)

Exactly. And also I think one question's often asked. And again, this is speculative just for your listeners. I think it's something I always wonder if I was writing a novel, I would put this conversation in because I think it's credible fiction or credible counterfactual or factual, whatever. People will often say to me, how could she have done this? Knowing what happened to Anne Boleyn who was her first cousin on her father's side. And I will always say, do you think Anne Boleyn did? And then they'll say no. And I'll say, well then why would you think she did? So she is actually, she has people around her, including her Step grandmother, who were very fond of Anne Boleyn. The Countess of Bridgewater was very close to her at one point. Catherine's aunt. There is no way that Catherine wasn't told that there was at the very least vibrant doubts about Anne Boleyn's guilt. And has she heard the comment Henry made to Jane Seymour, which is what Anne did. The reason why she lost her head was because she meddled in politics, which Catherine never does. She does not touch politics. The ten foot barge pole. So to me, she actually did learn the lesson of Amblyn.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (27:18)

Right.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (27:18)

Which is apolitical. Apolitical.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (27:21)

And because she knows herself, maybe she's thinking, I can handle this. I'm gonna do a better job. Like, actually, I'm made for this. I'm gonna be the one who does it.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (27:28)

It's the same thing of, like, you know, people when you look at, like, don't smoke. You think it applies to everyone but you. You know, like there's. It's very. People always think they will be the exception, of course. And also there are fairly limited ways she can get out of this. It's like, you know what? Actually, I don't want to be in this flight, but I am now, so I may as well see can class. That's sort of the way I look at it. But the really interesting thing is it's an accident that he falls for her. So this idea of her being the pawn moved in the chessboard by her uncle, the Duke of Norfolk, is not true because Norfolk's not in the country. When Henry notices her for the first time, he's on a diplomatic mission to France. And a really interesting letter I discovered is he's told by Francis's sister, Queen Marguerite, if you want to get a good relationship with the King of France, you need to please his mistress. And Norfolk thinks it's ridiculous. What influence would a royal mistress have? So at this point, he's still even on the cusp of Catherine's ascent. Isn't that playing the chessboard that way? So. Or the cheese board.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (28:29)

Or the cheese board, crucially.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (28:31)

And he's in France.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (28:32)

Thank you for ensuring that that edit makes it in.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (28:34)

No, we can't lose it.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (28:35)

Cheers, pal.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (28:36)

He is in the land of cheese. He's in France. And he is picking up some absolutely delightful little numbers from the. Absolutely. But back home, some serious cheddar is being made.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (28:49)

Thank you for going with this.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (28:50)

So it's coming.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (28:51)

I'm leaving you both to do.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (28:55)

So. When he. So I think. I mean, and the statements from within the family imply that Henry is caught by her beauty. And then the grandmother and the aunt give her advice on how to behave. And then the uncle comes back and they sort of. I don't think they stack the deck, but they play the cards dealt to the. And Norfolk sees this opportunity to use Catherine's rising favor to attack Thomas Cromwell, who is destroyed in the downfall of Queen Anne of Cleese.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (29:18)

And just to. You know, when you said the grandmother and the aunt is this. Yes, the grandmother and the aunt are seeing this person. They're kind of telling her how to behave. Are they doing that with you could be queen or take this position as.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (29:32)

Mistress and queen, I think queen, yes. Because they move her back to the grandmother's house of court for propriety's sake.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (29:38)

See, I love that.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (29:39)

That's good tactics.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (29:40)

Well, it turns out.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (29:40)

And also it's like there's like, oh, my God, you're gonna be queen. And we're gonna have to cover up that Francis Dereham chap. So he has. Now, the sources differ on whether he has a temper tantrum and runs away or they nudge him into running, but he runs all the way to Dublin and he works as a merchant, but that is later categorized as piracy. So Katherine Hard and the Pirate Shop is a novel that no one's written yet. So he's in Ireland for a while, probably. I would say he goes south for a bit. Cause that's where more of the ports would have been. But he vanishes and everyone's thoroughly relieved. And so that in a nutshell, there's really three Henry Mannox, Francis Dereham, Thomas Culpepper, and the ghosts of all three will come back. But from my own sake, I really do think the rot begins with Francis Dereham and it's him that sets everything in motion. That's my own interpretation of it.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (30:32)

It's. So I was thinking then, as you were talking, like, Henry should just do vetting of the queens, like proper vetting, where he looks. If this is a concern for him.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (30:39)

Yeah.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (30:40)

Then I also think, why the hell would anyone. Is her sexual past of any interest to Harry? Get a grip.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (30:47)

So this is the thing that actually, when she falls, the people of London agree with you.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (30:51)

Oh, really?

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (30:51)

So there's a law brought in where the Imperial Habsburg ambassador is like, great, now I can only marry widows, which is what a sixth wife is, that you have to disclose your sexual history if you're not a virgin before you marry into the royal family. And it's so unpopular with the people that Edward VI repeals it. And even though it's affecting, like what one person every generation, or in Henry's.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (31:12)

Case, every three years, it's still outrageous.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (31:14)

What someone said one of the complaints in London was, what did he expect her grandmother to do? Why is it the grandmother's job to tell him that? What grandmother would do that and reveal the past? And so there is actually that people are not completely sold on Catherine having been in the wrong with this. And this is a very imperfect modern comparison person. But it's sort of like how they. They view it is someone having done weed and then they have a political career leader and you're like, okay, it's not like, it's not ideal what she did, but come on, you know, it's that sort of thing. And all of a sudden now it's something that we're pretending to be outraged about because there's someone significant and she didn't know that that's what was going to happen. But I did a sort of speaking to her recently where we retraced part of her route and we did the coach trip up from London to Lincolnshire and then we ended up with Pontefract. And I remember looking up like, this has taken the guts of a day on a bus. How many times did Francis have to stop on the way up when he left London to gather at Pontefract? How many times did he stop at an inn and think, yeah, I'm gonna keep going. Yeah. To me, that is obsessive and he is obsessed with her and a complete.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (32:24)

Lack of self awareness.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (32:25)

Complete. Like it's regardless of, you know, we've talked about how, you know, did she. She thinks she could be the one who had the agency to make the Queenship a success. Okay, no one has a crystal ball, but you cannot tell me by the summer of 1541, there is anyone in Western Europe who is looking at Henry VIII and thinks, do you know what? Compassionate, forgiving, easygoing, not a cuddly guy, I think is a fairly safe assessment. What is Francis Dereham doing? So, to me, again, like, I understand concerns about modern language being used, and it's a fair debate to have, but also the history. History is just the story of the past through the words of the present. It might not be what we think stalking looks like, but it's an awful lot like it. To follow her to where she is, to blackmail her into giving her a position to use their shared past against her, that is stalking.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (33:13)

He would be posting revenge porn 100% it's very much.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (33:19)

No one will ever love you like I love you. Hoping no one loves me.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (33:25)

Please.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (33:28)

Yeah, exactly. And he has the receipts in this chest. Sure.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (33:31)

And you've taken us right up to this moment now, Gareth, which is the pivotal moment just before the downfall. So we've seen the threats mount. Now we hear these letters. We have Frances. She's back in London from Pontefract. How does this downfall unfold?

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (33:48)

So the first, it really begins on All Souls Day, the Feast of the Dead, when Henry gets the letter.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (33:54)

How fitting.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (33:54)

I know. It really is. Well, it's sort of. It's like Halloween. All Hallows and then, or All Saints and then All Souls. And in traditional belief, it's the day when the veil between the living and the dead is at its thinnest. And in some belief, it's when the gates of purgatory open the other way. And the unquiet dead and the ghosts are all around us. And certainly all of Catherine's biographical, they're.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (34:14)

All coming back to haunt her.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (34:16)

So when the Archbishop starts the investigation, the first red flag is the king of all red flags, Frances Dereham. And they cannot understand why he is working for her, if what they've heard is true. That they don't want Catherine to know there's an investigation yet, because at this stage, they still think there might. They don't want to offend her.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (34:36)

And that's so interesting as well. They don't look at that situation and think, maybe he's pressuring her into a job. They're like, why would she have him anywhere near her? There's, like, shame on her.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (34:45)

Exactly.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (34:46)

But that isn't even taken into consideration.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (34:47)

No, I don't even think it would have crossed their mind. No, no, no, no.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (34:50)

But they have a good legal excuse to arrest him and not raise her suspicion, which is the piracy in Ireland. So he's taken and Catherine doesn't. If she notices he's gone at this stage, I mean, they're back at Hampton Court, it's full household. And then they start asking questions of one of her maids, a woman called Catherine Tilney, who had also lived and worked for the Dodger Duchess of Norfolk. And then they tracked down Henry Manox in Lambeth and get the information from him. They come to Catherine and she. Initially. So it's headed by the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Bishop of Winchester and the Duke of Suffolk. And they ask her, and she flatly denies it. And she says, there is no truth in this, that is a lie and it would have been difficult for her to stick to it with the amount of evidence they uncovered. So what they do is what they did with Anne Boleyn, which is they cut off oxygen, they cut off the outside world and they reduce her staff, they keep her in her rooms at Hampton Court, and she. She panics and she cracks and she starts the artificial. Canterbury comes and he admits, I let her contradict herself, so you can see she's lying. And she does tell multi. I mean, the versions keep changing, even her versions. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's about five different versions.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (36:04)

So she's.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (36:05)

She is in complete meltdown. Meltdown. And it's so heartbreaking because the rooms were. You know, she. She's rattling around these rooms and she gives three full confessions, the third of which is the shortest. The first was apparently long, but it's missing. The third one is the most famous one. But the second one, which I put in the book in full length because I think I would like people to have as a source, because it's quite tricky to track down, is the longest. And it's really a wonderful thing to have because it is her full. It's her voice and a lot of what she liked with her clothes. And I don't know, it made me a bit emotional reading it because I kind of felt I could have been friends with her. And then here was a real. He was a real person, like a really vibrant person. And. And someone else who's a bit sharp, like, she could be difficult to work for. And I love. I love that in her, like, 19 or 20 years of life, we still managed to get sharp edges. Like, we got a person. We got it.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (37:00)

We got there on the page. And you've met her.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (37:03)

Exactly. And I'm so glad he didn't smooth, because sometimes tragedy smooths away the edges. And that's as much of a tragedy, because losing them to the shadow of death is losing them in another way.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (37:14)

That's what Henry does to these women, right? He grinds them down. He just strips them bare of the power, the intellect, the personality, everything.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (37:21)

He takes it off. We can do that when we. The thing is, a victim does not need to be a victim entirely. We should acknowledge that they are victimized by this, but it's not restoring them to just love that.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (37:33)

Gareth, you know, we call it On After Dark. We refer to this a lot, the girl bossification of these people, where it's like they become this one monolithic thing.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (37:41)

Yeah. They either have to oversimplify. Oh, go, girl. Or it's the Opposite, where they're just nobody. They're just a victim. They fall by the wayside. And I think Catherine is so complex.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (37:51)

Oh, I love. And I. And I, you know, spent. I did my postgraduate dissertation on her and then I went into writing the book. So I spent, I think about five years with her, which is twice as long that she was politically active for. And when I, when I finished the book, I just remember this, like, vast. I checked into your hotel to finish it and then all of a sudden you missed it. I was like, where is she? Like, this has been my company for five years. But actually there's a lot of line in Brightside Revisited that I'll ruin. But it's by Julia Flight. And they talk about, you know, there she is standing on the edge of the pool of life like a kingfisher humming around in the evening. And she doesn't realize that she's the heroine in a dark fairy tale and that this titanic servant of hers is actually a monster being belched forth that will do her command, but will bring her them in an unwelcome way. I butchered that quote, but that's. That to me was Catherine. Yeah, yeah, that was the heroine of the dark fairy tale.

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Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (40:09)

To be more specific. With the downfall, she contradicts the confessions blatantly contradict each other. And Cranmer is using those as proof to the king that she has done something wrong. And then in her fear, she makes a decision that is foolish but understandable, which is that she realizes that they're only looking into Frances and her terror must have been, what if they find out about the meetings with Thomas Cullen Culpepper? So she tries to throw them off Culpepper's scent by saying Dhirem was jealous of Culpepper. And I just thought that was ridiculous because obviously he's nothing to me. And because the confessions have contradicted each other, the Archbishop cannot understand why she would mention him at all.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (40:48)

The lady doth protest too much.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (40:50)

Exactly. So they order a search of Catherine's of Thomas Culpepper's room at Hampton Court. And they find a love letter that Catherine wrote to him after.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (40:56)

Thomas, what are you doing?

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (40:58)

Well, why is he keeping it?

Maddie (Podcast Host) (40:59)

Well, yeah, exactly.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (41:00)

Why is he keeping it?

Maddie (Podcast Host) (41:00)

That's insurance.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (41:01)

Yeah. And I do think this is my other counterfactual and again, prove it. But I do think it's a credible thing. Thomas Culpepper, when he's taken in for questioning, says, we hadn't slept together yet. And I believe him. I think that was true. I think they hadn't done the deed yet. I think this is the dress rehearsal for Catherine Parr and Thomas Seymour. I think Catherine thinks she's about to become a widow. Rid yourself of the knowledge. He makes it to 1547. He's almost died that year. It is very common for widows of the upper classes to marry beneath them socially, to marry for choice, gender and class balance each other. Look at Mary Boleyn. Look at Margaret Tudor. Mary Tudor, the elder Chiquetta of Luxembourg. They all do it. I think Catherine Hard is preparing to become Dodd or Queen. And I think Thomas Culpepper knows he could be hugely wealthy. They're definitely very attracted to each other. They joke about their past sexual history to each other. They make sort of quite saucy jokes with each other. There's also moments where he confesses he loves her. There's a lot in this. It's really that rush of being in love at 19.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (42:07)

It's quite touching.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (42:08)

It is. Let them have it. Let them have those night meetings. And I try not. I don't. I mean, there's something. We don't need to make this story any more tragic than it is. If you can find a moment of light in her story, let it shine. Because there's enough. The sunsets gathering in. And so they then arrest Lady Rochford. They interrogate the servants in three groups so there's no cross contamination of testimony because the counselors don't know which way this is going to go.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (42:35)

This is something that always shocks me about the Tudor world, that whenever anyone's being investigated and the wolves kind of close in, it's so efficient.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (42:43)

Yes, I know. Crafting the same.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (42:44)

Yeah, yeah.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (42:45)

They actually do it very well.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (42:46)

Well, because at this point, they're like.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (42:48)

Scary hog as it is.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (42:49)

Do it again. Come on.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (42:50)

It's done. Well.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (42:50)

Well, you don't want to look like you are inefficient through lack of loyalty. Henry is quick on spotting people who seem insufficient in zeal, so they break themselves off. They also, they don't allow councillors to question in different groups, so they can't be influenced by what the other group have said. So it's subdivided into these three groups. And Henry is convinced that Francis Derham has come to court hoping for his death so that he can resume a sexual relationship and marry Catherine. And so actually it's Dirham who's tortured to get that information. Culpepper is not. They are executed on the same day, on 10 December. But Culpepper gets the axe and Francis Dereham is hand drawn and quartered. One of his friends, Robert Danport, has lost half of his teeth being ripped out trying to get him to testify that that was the plan. And it's very clear from the surviving documentation that Henry was pushing the interrogation at every stage. So they've dealt with the men. Most of Catherine's immediate family, apart from the Duke of Norfolk, are imprisoned. The Countess of Bridgewater emerges as sort of someone staring at the barrel of a loaded gun and shrugging. She just refuses to buckle. She thinks the councillors are beneath her and neither the judge or Duchess nor the Countess of Bridgewater will say that Catherine's done anything wrong. And they could have saved themselves by saying she was a harlot. She tricked us. Nope. They will not abandon her. Uncle William, the Duke's younger brother, is summoned back from his embassy to France and they're going to seize all his silverware. And they're like, where is it? He was like, I lost it. He's like, there was a storm coming back and it fell to the bottom of the sea. If you can find it, you're welcome to. It's definitely hidden in one of the Howard's gardens. Because all of them are suspiciously financially comfortable when they go to prison.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (44:37)

Yeah, yeah.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (44:37)

Good for them. Good for them.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (44:38)

So I enjoy that. So they're imprisoned and the Dowager Duchess, the Countess Catherine and the imprisoned Lady Rochford, they need Parliament because of their rank. And so one of the most important parliaments of Henry's reign. That last Parliament is reconvened for the start of 1542 specifically to deal with the downfall of Queen Catherine. And the House of Lords, when they reconvene in January, have questions about this. And when people say, cat, what Catherine had done clearly was death penalty offence. How could she be so stupid? Yes, it was unwise. No question of that. Understandable, but unwise. However, the House of Lords know more than you or I or anyone watching this will do about the law at the time they're living it. And the House of Lords have serious questions about the legality of Catherine going to the block. They are not convinced that this is legally mandated. They ask questions. We're not sure that this qualifies as treason. And Henry sends his Lord Chancellor and basically says, the King wants this and it will be done. And so an act of Attainder is passed to condemn Lady Rochford and Queen Catherine to death by beheading. Lady Rochford has suffered a complete mental breakdown in prison. So they pass a new law saying that you. You can legally execute the insane for the first time in English history. Lots of debate about was she pretending to be insane to get off. We don't know. All we know is that Henry changed the law to get this done again. The efficiency of his desire to. To Henry smash. There is a maniacal push for the blood sacrifice to be given for the King having been humiliated.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (46:12)

It's like a visceral response in his. It's like everyone must die. I can't acknowledge that I'm a bit pissed off about this, so.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (46:19)

And even the King of France doesn't think this is going to happen. He thinks Catherine will be sent to rot into irrelevance and old age in the countryside somewhere. But Henry wants the death penalty, so it's pushed through. Catherine has spent the last winter of her life under house arrest at a disused convent at Zion, which is now on the site of the Duke of Northumberland's residence. Zion House is on the site of where this convent was. And on the 10th of February, 1542, she realizes there is. She's not going to be pardoned, she's not going to survive this. And they come and they tell her that they're taking her to the Tower of London and she has a complete brick dump and they drag her out to the wedding boat and they row her up to the Tower of London. But Catherine had always been someone that breakdown, as understandable as it is, is all sort of character. This is someone who dazzled on the international stage of that Christmas.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (47:10)

And again, Henry has ground her down to the bare minimum.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (47:13)

So she is going to leave as she wants to leave, and she wants to be note perfect in the final performance of her life. So she does what any good performance does and she rehearses. So she asks them after her final confession with Father White, where she again reiterates, apparently, that she did not commit adultery. She asks would they bring the block to her room so she can rehearse the execution? And she does. She rehearses.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (47:39)

It genuinely gives me shivers. That's. There's something so. Wow.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (47:43)

It's still that young woman in the.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (47:45)

Orchard and the one who knows herself and knows what she needs to get through this.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (47:50)

You have put me in this position, but I will walk out of it how I want to. I didn't want to take this journey, but I will be walking my own way through it. That's the Catherine I think I came to know. And she doesn't say that famous sort of. It's the let them eat cake of Tudor history. If I die the wife of a king, but I'd rather die the wife of Culpepper. There's an eyewitness account from a Calais merchant called Otwell Johnson. He says that she was brave and both her and Lady Rochford made right good Christian ends, which means sort of pious, conventional and dignified.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (48:22)

Are they all those women executed together?

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (48:24)

No, the judge or duchess and the conscious were sentenced to life imprisonment. And then once the blood is spilled, Henry sort of loses interest and then they're released in May.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (48:31)

Yeah, they're irrelevant to him. Yeah, they've been punished, the real punishment.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (48:35)

Because they didn't humiliate him.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (48:36)

So he just said.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (48:37)

And then they go off and the Dodger Duchess lives for three more years, the count just for another decade. And William is later back in court. Uncle William, who's hid the silverware, becomes a favourite of Mary I and Elizabeth I, and will die at Hampton Court, where it all started in 1573. But to my point, he looks after his mummy and his sister and I think it's the missing silverware. So because everything was. All their goods were seized, but they're comfortable, so do you know what I mean? The hards get a rough wrap, but those three, good for them, I think. And I suppose, you know, talking about Catherine, as I say, sharp edges and light where you can. But to people who often think of her as, you know, poor little Catherine or the kind of, like, frivolous airhead, you have to have Something of steel within you to rehearse your own execution.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (49:28)

Yes.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (49:29)

So I think there was. And interestingly, on that final tour of the north, there are sources that have since been lost to us by the 17th century. Bishop Gilbert Burnett saw. And where he did transcribe documents that have survived to the present, we saw he did them perfectly. He saw sources that vanished in a 1731 fire, an accidental library fire, about the tour of the North. And he refers to her as fair and beloved Queen Catherine, who grew to have more influence. So I think before the mistakes that she did make, but also the many more mistakes that people around her made, I think we started to see her growing in political heft. And she'd interceded for Thomas Wyatt, who was a reformist, and John Wallop, who were a conservative, to be pardoned. She had reached out to reformist bishops and said, don't worry. I know I come from a more conservative family. Things will be fine. It's something. To paraphrase Queen Mary and the Crown, doing nothing is the hardest thing of all. There is a wisdom and a discipline that comes from neutrality. It takes a great amount of discipline to be politically neutral in an environment like that and to be bipartisan, which she was. So I like to remind people of that. And I also like to remind them of. Yes. Someone meeting late at night and writing love letters and being a bit unwise. And as many of us. I mean, my God, if I was remembering who I was at 19. Yeah. If I was remembering who I was in love with at 19. Good God.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (50:52)

Yeah, exactly.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (50:52)

Oh, my God. 19 is a very specific thing, actually, because if I were.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (50:56)

Yeah.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (50:57)

Let's not be judged.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (50:58)

Listen, you're old enough who are like. I know who he's talking about.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (51:02)

You're old enough to make decisions, but you are not old enough to make good ones.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (51:06)

No, exactly.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (51:08)

Or to have to live the rest of your life with those consequences, or.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (51:11)

To have the rest of your life snuffed out because of them. So I like to remind myself and people of the woman rather than poor little Catherine. Cause I think that's the dust that Henry ground her into. And we've tried to stitch her back. And to me, the Catherine I got to spend five years with, I understood why some of her maids found her insufferable and inconsiderate. And I understood why the imperial ambassador who worked for the Habsburgs, who knew a thing or two about etiquette, found her seriously impressive and dignified. She's all of those things. And at the end, the Best tribute I think we can give to her downfall is its rebuttal and to say it's just part of the story.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (51:55)

I'm gonna join you in another reframing of her and it sounds to me based on this conversation because I knew very little about Katherine Hart before we had this conversation. Now I know loads. But it sounds like the gays would have loved her.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (52:05)

Yeah.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (52:06)

Do you know what I mean?

Anthony (Podcast Host) (52:07)

She is one of those that we would have flocked to. And just being like we choose her. That is a place we would have felt safe and inspired.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (52:17)

I always feel that about Anne. And it's interesting. They are cousins.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (52:20)

Yes. But here's the thing. Anne Boleyn is an older gays icon. She's the Joan Crawford of the children.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (52:25)

I would not have flocked to Anne, but I might have flocked to her.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (52:28)

Anne is out for herself in a way that Catherine isn't necessarily.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (52:31)

Anne would have had a close coterie of gay friends who she saw in the Riviera and they always had this. But she.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (52:39)

But still may have voted against gay marriage.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (52:41)

Yeah, yeah.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (52:41)

Gay marriage she would be fine with because she would love to have been able to say, I'm sick. Those just like least one of her friends be like, yeah, I assume you're against it because otherwise your husband would have married you and would. She would never have gone to your pride match. Because she distrusts mobilization of the masses.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (52:57)

So she's claustrophobic. This is it.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (53:00)

The minute someone came near her with body glitter, she like, this is bespoke and I need you to get away.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (53:05)

I'm an ally, but not that kind of an ally.

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Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (53:08)

I'm an ally for a letter writing campaign. I'm a. A black and white ball.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (53:11)

There is you. Do you Queen Bessel.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (53:12)

Yeah, absolutely. I'll mention it in Vogue. Whereas Catherine's on the float on the ground.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (53:17)

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah. I'm seeing real gay icon with Catherine Howard and also somebody who may be producers of the world unite and read Gareth's book and then make an adaptation because that's filmic and it's very contained and it's this. It actually feels a little bit more robust of a fight back against the system than maybe even Anne Boleyn does to a certain extent. Even though it's much shorter and much less definitional for a nation. But you know, there's something individually something about it.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (53:50)

Anne is brutally shattered and it is the tearing apart of a political heavyweight. And people will. I mean, I remember once having a discussion with A friend. And they said, oh, but Anne, I feel less sorry for her than Catherine because she was political. And I was like, that's fair enough. But that's not what they went after her for. If they had gone after her for just treason or heresy, fine, but they went as low as they possibly could. And it's the same that you see with many women. They go for the gynecological destruction. They go as base as they can. And so that's why I think, actually Anne is a more savvy political operative than Catherine. But I feel sorry for them both because actually, it's the destruction of Anne through something that she didn't do. It's the destruction of Catherine that she had done, but it was not, A, as bad as they made it out to be, and B, also, it was not a crime when she did it. But at the end, it is. They, they both, the same man is responsible for the same conclusion, which does not happen anywhere else in the length and breadth of the British monarchies, which is a husband publicly executes his wife. It's not normal. And we're always asking, how could Anne do it? How could Catherine do it? What did they do that made that possible? There is only one common unifying factor and it's hubby dearest.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (55:04)

Yeah, absolutely. Also concluding thought, Francis Dereham can absolutely get in the bin.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (55:10)

Yeah.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (55:10)

I only feel. I mean, brutal end, not great. Wouldn't wish it on anyone. But I'm not sorry. No, I'm not sorry about it. Yeah. And he. He 100 brought that on himself.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (55:20)

Well, and that's one thing, actually. I mean. Well, he did, he did. And he would also. He didn't just bring up on himself. Well, he. He's the kind of person who was. Who was like, I'm going to jump in the water here with rocks in my pocket and I'm going to hold on to her as I jump. That's the kind of. So I think he's.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (55:36)

That's petrifying.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (55:37)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. It's a sort of. What did you think was going to happen?

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (55:40)

Listen, just a really good lesson from history is, or in life is simply because you are equipped with the ability to feel something does not mean anyone is under an obligation to reciprocate.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (55:50)

Yes. And if someone dumps you in an orchard, should go with it.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (55:53)

Yeah. Brew some cider and on you go, sweetheart. Yeah, It's. Enjoy your life as a pirate. I mean, yeah, you know, Kilkenny's beautiful. Enjoy it.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (56:03)

Yeah, yeah.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (56:04)

Go back to Kilkenny.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (56:08)

Oh my gosh, she's my new favorite queen.

Anthony (Podcast Host) (56:11)

Yeah, yeah. I've overlooked her.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (56:12)

I absolutely love her. If you have enjoyed this episode. If Gareth has changed your mind about the Queen of Henry viii, then let us know in the comments. Leave us a five star review wherever you get your podcasts. And if you want to hear more Tudor history or history from any other period, get in touch after dark@historyhip.com that is the email address right? Yeah yeah.

Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (56:32)

Sponsored by Derry Lee oh my God.

Maddie (Podcast Host) (56:36)

I'm never gonna live this down. Cheers.

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Gareth Russell (Historian and Author) (57:18)

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