Epstein Doc Dump Details, and Hasan Piker’s Rise, with Michael Malice, PLUS Getting Real About Groypers

Summary

Podcast Summary: “After Party with Emily Jashinsky”

Episode: Epstein Doc Dump Details, and Hasan Piker’s Rise, with Michael Malice, PLUS Getting Real About Groypers
Date: November 13, 2025
Host: Emily Jashinsky
Guest: Michael Malice (host of ‘You’re Welcome,’ author of ‘Not Sick of Winning’)

Episode Overview

This episode tackles three major themes:

1. The fallout and political intrigue surrounding the latest release of 20,000 Jeffrey Epstein-related emails,
2. The media buzz and controversy around leftist streamer Hasan Piker’s rise and his visit to China,
3. The “Groypers” debate and concern about alleged increases in antisemitism among young conservatives, plus firsthand reporting from Emily challenging viral statistics and narratives.

Emily and Michael bring irreverence, candor, and humor, while grappling with serious issues around media bias, political realignments, and generational divides.

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Main Segments & Timestamps

I. The Epstein Email Doc Dump (03:28 – 26:00)

Key Points

• 20,000 Epstein Emails Released: New documents from Epstein’s estate were released – first a handful by House Democrats, then a massive dump by Republicans, leading to a day of feverish parsing by journalists.
• Media Coverage Oddities: Michael and Emily puzzle over an AP headline focusing on a Trump mention (“Trump knew about the girls”)—yet the article works unusually hard to offer Trump’s side.
  • Malice notes:
    • “I've never ... seen an AP piece where it honestly and fairly presents Trump's side of the story. I've never seen it before.” (06:47)
• Theories About Withholding Information:
  • Emily & Michael explore why both parties might want to keep some Epstein-related information secret; speculations range from bipartisan interest in protecting elites, to protecting the intelligence community, to the possibility of missing true “smoking guns.”
  • Malice: “If there’s a smoking gun, we would have heard about it repeatedly... The fact that we haven’t tells me ... maybe there’s something minorly embarrassing... But ... I don’t have a Venn diagram for what Joe Biden and Donald Trump are both desperate to stop from being released.” (07:06)
• Leaked Larry Summers–Epstein Email: Comedic analysis of an email where Larry Summers asks if Trump uses cocaine, and Epstein nonchalantly requests a Harvard tour for a Rothschild.
  • Emily: “You are Larry Summers. You don’t need to be thirst trapping in your email signature like that.” (09:45)
  • Malice: “If Emily, if I ever ask you if someone's using real cocaine, please do not respond within a minute asking for a tour of Austin. You will not receive one.” (10:04)
• On Information Suppression: The documents contain a lot of incriminating or embarrassing material (if not criminal), so there's strong incentive among many elites to limit or shape the release, lest “internet sleuths” connect dots that paint powerful people in a bad light.
  • Emily: “If there's a smoking gun ... they're going to do a 20,000 document dump and leave the one out.”
• Mysteries and Theories Around Trump & Maxwell: Speculation about email exchanges suggesting Trump knew about Maxwell’s activities, but no clear evidence of wrongdoing or collaboration with Epstein; Scott Adams theory (Trump leveraging info for blackmail) is dismissed for lack of “receipts.”
  • Malice: “If he’s a client ... I don’t see any reality where that’s not known or at least whispered about... things get out, it’s not a thing.” (15:27)
• Limits of the Doc Dumps: Discussion points to the likelihood that any truly damning material has either been destroyed, or was never captured in formal documents to begin with.

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II. Media, Rebranding, and Political Cynicism (27:51 – 41:41)

Key Points

• Lighthearted Banter on Studio Decor: A brief, off-beat digression as Malice is “triggered” by Emily’s lit candle on a wooden bookshelf.
• Is the Right ‘Getting Sick of Winning?’ – Post-MAGA Disillusionment: Responding to growing online frustration and blackpilled commentary among Trump supporters post-midterms and after underwhelming policy accomplishments.
  • Malice presents his “cycle of disappointment,” where conservative influencers and supporters vow to dump Trump after disappointments, only to come back as the alternative (the left) appears less palatable. (30:51)
  • “I think MAGA and Trump are synonymous ... MAGA just means this loose collection of things that Trump kind of likes and Trump kind of doesn’t. I don’t think it’s, broadly speaking, a well developed ideology ... He’s a politician, not a philosopher.” (32:16)
• Importance of Critique from the Right: Emily notes that despite highly critical commentary from popular non-political podcasters, the right-leaning influencer class seems hesitant to critically examine Trump’s administration, with the exception of fringe figures (like Fuentes).

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III. Hasan Piker, Gen Z, and Left Wing Populism (41:41 – 55:08)

Key Points

• Hasan Piker’s China Trip:
  • Hasan Piker, a popular leftist streamer, live-streams sympathetically from Tiananmen Square, remarking on China’s rapid growth and his lack of patriotism, in a segment Emily and Malice find “malevolent,” dismissing the whitewashing of Chinese state abuses as deeply troubling.
    • Hasan: “I don’t have any sort of patriotism ... for America. But just in general, I’m not a very, you know — I care about people. So for me it’s like, it’s hard to comprehend.” (44:00)
  • Malice retorts: “He’s standing on ... where ... young people who would have, in other contexts, been Hasan Piker fans, [were] mowed down by tanks and slaughtered... to be walking around there and ... be like, ‘oh, I don’t have any patriotism in my heart,’ it’s just like... you know what? So stay there.” (44:57)
• Younger Left’s Attraction to Populism: Explains Hasan’s appeal among Gen Z and young millennial progressives as a reaction to the uninspiring establishment of the Democratic Party, especially Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.
  • Malice: “If the establishment of the Democratic Party hasn’t served me as a young person, I’m going to go with the guy who’s on the left who upsets them... makes them angry; that means he’s ... actually going to make a big difference.” (50:05)

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IV. MSNBC’s “Ms. Now” Rebrand & The DEI Retreat (55:08 – 63:53)

Key Points

• MSNBC’s Comedy of Rebranding (to “Ms. Now”):
  • Emily and Michael roast an awkward “racial justice” themed ad for the channel, poking fun at meme-worthy branding (the endless “No...” ad).
  • Malice: “They should have fired Joy and Reed ... she could play both genders with that potato head... she could be a baby — just put her in a crib, just crop it. Babies love MSNBC.” (57:04)
• Nancy Pelosi’s Farewell: A Barometer of Party Shifts:
  • Malice points out that Pelosi, icon of San Francisco progressivism, virtually ignored the issue of gay rights and Black Lives Matter in her long retirement address—indicative, he argues, of how quickly Democrats shed activist baggage when politically needed.
    • “She does not mention the word gay, homosexual, LGBT or trans once ... She does not mention Black Lives Matter ... When she mentions diversity, they show a white family.” (57:41)
  • Malice: “Conservatives need to wake the F up... the Democrats are not dumb. The role of the Democratic Party is to seize and hold onto power, and they will throw anyone under the bus in order to do so.” (58:54)
  • Emily: “We’re going from kneeling in 2020 to barely even mentioning anything...” (59:59)
• On the Politics of Inclusion & Marginalization:
  • Malice provides examples of how quickly identity groups (e.g., BLM, LGBTQ) are abandoned or downplayed by Democratic leadership when they become inconvenient to power.

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V. “Groypers” & the State of Gen Z on the Right (63:53 – 85:41)

Key Points

• Overblown Groyper Hysteria:
  • Emily scrutinizes recent commentary (especially that by Rod Dreher) claiming that 30-40% of young DC right-wingers are antisemitic “Groypers” or Fuentes acolytes — a number she and her sources find wildly inflated.
  • Reporting directly from DC, she offers seven on- and off-record source quotes from senior staffers in Congress and the administration, all contesting such claims:
    • “That is bullshit. And I’ve met with probably more Gen Z for coffee than 90% of the others.”
    • “The rising generation of conservative leaders in Washington are overwhelmingly not aligned with the ideas that conspire to scapegoat others for lack of ambition or achievement.”
    • “It might be around 9% at most, right? Not even double digits, which is still too many. I agree.”
  • Emily’s Take: “I do think it’s true there are some real struggles, especially among young men... looking for answers in nihilism or in fringe rightwing ideas—but ... this 30-40% figure ... is not anywhere close to my experience.”
  • On why fringe voices sometimes gain attention: lack of right-flank criticism of Trump, pushing some frustrated or critical young people to listen to contrarian figures like Fuentes, even if disagreeing with their ideology.
• Big Picture Prescription:
  • Emily urges the GOP to focus on restoring homeownership, economic opportunity, community belonging—issues that address the root “miseration” that leads youth to the online nihilism and extremism that pundits panic about.
  • “To pull people out of online nihilism and online irony poisoning... give people hope offline, talk about a better economy, and restore the fabric of civil society.”
• The Real Scope:
  • Ultimately, Emily’s reporting suggests the danger of overreacting to online “Edgelord” subcultures, and instead deals with the underlying alienation of youth—while not closing eyes to the need for accountability or vigilance.

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Memorable Quotes

• Michael Malice on AP’s Epstein Coverage:
  “I have never ... seen an AP piece where it honestly and fairly presents Trump’s side of the story. I’ve never seen it before.” (06:47)

• Emily on Media Bias:
  “This isn’t adding up ... it’s like ... this is among the driest, but most biased [wires].” (06:56)

• Malice, The Cycle of MAGA Disappointment:
  “This happened before ... Trump pushed the vaccine, ‘I’m never going to vote for him,’ ... and then a couple years later [it’s]: ‘the left has gone crazy’...” (30:51)

• Emily on Fringe Right-Wing Influence:
  “A lot of people listen to Fuentes because there aren’t a lot of other right-wing folks who criticize Donald Trump... The longer people stay away from criticizing Trump from the right ... the more people end up turning to Fuentes.” (full context, ~78:00–80:00)

• Malice on Political Expediency:
  “All they care about is seizing and maintaining power. And for people who doubt this ... ask yourself ... if Nancy Pelosi, Joe Biden, or Chuck Schumer had to choose between whatever group you want and them having power ... what do you think they’re going to choose?” (62:39)

• Emily’s Summation on Groypers:
  “I just wanted to very respectfully ... push back on that 30 to 40% number. I do find it to be dangerous ... it is not reflective of our experience here in Washington, D.C. ... I hope that’s good news.” (85:00)

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Final Thoughts

Emily and Michael navigate conspiratorial headlines, internet culture, and the fraught state of political discourse with both skepticism and humor. The episode is both a biting media critique and a counter to viral panic about youth politics, challenging listeners to go beyond Twitter and TikTok to assess real social trends. The underlying message: Don’t buy into overblown moral panics—focus on substance, and let common sense (and a little levity) prevail.

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Note:
Ad sections, show intro, outro, and non-content pauses have been omitted as per instructions. All notable quotes are attributed in line with timestamps or clear speaker context.

Transcript

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[Emily]

Welcome to Afterparty everyone. It is great to see you all. As a reminder, make sure to subscribe on YouTube. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Happy Hour as a reminder, only on podcast feeds. So if you subscribe on Apple, Spotify, wherever you're getting your podcasts, that only goes out, it's audio only. It's only for our audio listeners because if you're like me, you just love the audio. Make sure that you are subscribed on podcast feeds to get Happy hour every Friday, 5pm I'll be recording it tomorrow. You can shoot me emails [e-mail] or on our afterparty Emily Instagram. I'll do my best to get to all of them when we record that tomorrow. Now onto tonight's show. The great Michael Malice is going to be with us in just one moment and we have a lot to talk about. I'm monitoring the situation in the Oval Office right right now, by the way, because Donald Trump is about to sign the government shutdown bill. So the Continuing Revolution Revolution resolution, it's really not much of a revolution to fund the government to reopen the government that is on the president's desk and he is about to sign it presses in the Oval Office. So I will be monitoring that. If there's anything that must be mentioned on afterparty, don't you forget, I will be there watching it all, taking it all in. 20,000 new Epstein emails dropped today. 20,000 new Epstein emails. Some of them have already been parsed through and are interesting. So we're going to discuss those with Michael. We're going to get into the misnow rebrand. MSNBC is now misnow. They want you to think that it's Ms. Now. It's actually Ms. Now. It's the only way to pronounce it because if you pronounce it Ms. Now, you can have. It conjures all the memories of those wonderful misnow memes that we're going to break down a new ad they have for the new rebranded network. It's incredible. You're gonna want to stick around for that. Hasan Piker is in China. Why not? And I have some original reporting on groipergate. Dare we call it that. You have to stick around for the end to catch that. But I've been working the sources, working the phones and have some information to bring to everyone towards the end of today's show. So let's get to it with Michael Malice, host of youf're welcome and author of Not Sick of Winning, a history of President Trump's first 100 days. Michael Malice, thanks for coming back.

[Michael Malice]

Thank you so much, Emily.

[Emily]

All right, we're actually going to talk about whether people are getting sick of winning in just one moment, but let's start with the 20,000 new Epstein emails, because something tells me that'll be kind of a nice segue into that conversation. But you pointed out this AP headline on the story today. So this is F1. The headline is, Epstein email says Trump, quote, knew about the girls. As White House calls its release a Democratic smear. You said something truly bizarre is happening. AP released a piece on the Epstein emails that dropped, but the writer does everything in their power to exonerate Trump from the implications. I've never seen that before from a corporate press article. Before I have you explain yourself, Michael, just some quick background for people who have normal lives and weren't following the news cycle all day. House Democrats released a few emails on the Oversight Committee. They released a few of them from the Epstein estate because when the government shutdown ends, Mike Johnson has sworn in Adelita Gralva, who will be the vote that they need for the discharge. Discharge petition, which is bipartisan. Republicans like Thomas Massie, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Lauren Boebert, together with Democrats, want to push this, what's called a discharge petition through the House of Representatives in order to compel a vote on the floor to get the administration to release more Epstein documents. The White House has been fighting it tooth and nail, very bitterly. They don't want that to happen. So House Democrats released these emails that the AP is referring to in that headline early in the morning with the name of one of the victims redacted. It was Virginia Giuffre, who, you know, we could get into it. Some credibility issues, to say the least. I don't think she's telling. I don't think she's passed now, of course, but I don't think she was telling the. I don't think she was misleading people about every single thing, but certainly there are some questions. So all that is to say, then The Republicans dumped 20,000 new emails that journalists spent the day parsing through. Michael, your point about that AP piece is actually fascinating. Can you break it down for us?

[Michael Malice]

Sure. I mean, we have spent years having to deal with whenever Trump can be made to look like a. Can I curse?

[Emily]

Yes.

[Michael Malice]

Like. Like an asshole. They're going to go out of the way to do it.

[Emily]

That's not cursing.

[Michael Malice]

I could. Well, I'm just warming up. I can think of two. Two ways off the top of my head. There was one moment where he was with Queen Elizabeth, the late Queen Elizabeth, and it looks like he walked in front of her, and it's like, look at this asshole. But if you see the whole clip, they cut it right before that. She gestures for him to walk in front of her, but if you look at just what they released, it looks like he's a complete, you know, a fool. There was another moment when he was feeding the fish in Japan. Oh, my God. He's overfeeding the fish by the cats. But if you watch the whole clip, the Japanese prime minister did the same thing. So they just do this, do this over and over just to make him look like a fool. If you read this article, I saw the headline, I clicked on it, paragraph after paragraph. Look, here's the context. Trump kicked Jeffrey Epstein out of Mar? A Lago. Virginia Guthrey, how to pronounce her name. Sorry. Said repeatedly he was innocent. Like, it was basically Trump's side of the story, beat by beat, at length. And I have never, and if you have, please correct me, seen, like, an AP piece where it honestly and fairly presents Trump's side of the story. I've never seen it before.

[Emily]

No, I mean, I can't think of another time. So what's your theory as to why this Associated Press piece, which. This is a wire report. They are among the driest, but the most biased.

[Michael Malice]

Yes.

[Emily]

Did not mean for that to rhyme. I'm actually going to apologize because that was not an appropriate place to rhyme, but it's like, that's what's going on. This isn't adding up.

[Michael Malice]

People have said, oh, I put on Twitter because I don't know. And people have said, okay, they're trying to avoid a lawsuit. You can avoid a lawsuit by. You don't. You can just leave it up there. You're not accusing of everything. Let the, you know, that blanketed email speak for itself and let the reader reach their own conclusion. You don't have to say, you know, Trump's this or that. I have no idea. I don't think it's. They're scared of lawsuits. I don't think they've gone maga. I have no idea what's going on. In the same way, here's something else. I don't know what's going on, and I'm curious to hear your thoughts, which is if I will bet every penny I have that if there's a lot of crap about Trump in these Epstein files, Biden would have leaked it. I don't see any way anyone can argue to the contrary. They were leaking all sorts of things. They were making things up, you know, in 2016 to make him look like, you know, he hired prostitutes to pee on a bed. And this went wide. You laugh, but, like, that's the level where they were to stop this guy. So if there's a smoking gun, we would have heard about it repeatedly. And the fact that we haven't tells me with a high degree of certainty that maybe there's something that's minorly embarrassing. But at the same time, I don't have a Venn diagram for what Joe Biden and Donald Trump are both desperate to stop from being released. I don't understand what that crossover is, and I'm open to hearing hypotheses. I've talked to several people on my show about this, and none of them had a good answer by their own admission.

[Emily]

Right. And no, I think that's true. I mean, obviously there are some emails coming out today that are pretty funny from, like, Larry Summers. I don't know if you saw this or I'm going to put it up on the screen. This is. Ben Dreyfuss posted those. Here's an email where Larry Summers asked Jeffrey Epstein if Trump uses cocaine. And Epstein responds by asking if he can get a private Harvard tour for a Rothschild is actually what's happening in this email. It's so, so funny.

[Michael Malice]

And like, can we just acknowledge that we live in a simulation? Because if, if Emily, if you and I sat down, we passed this huge bowl and we got baked out of our minds and our eyes are all red, we would never Come up with something this creative and this over the top. How plausible is it that Trump is real cocaine? Real cocaine user, not cocaine user. So he wants to go for my iPhone. So you know, Larry Summers is taking a dump and he's like, all right, maybe he's, maybe he's doing ripping rails in the bathroom and he's, he's texting this. Who knows?

[Emily]

He's. Yeah, well he's look at also he's plugging his website in his email signature. This is great. Www.larrysolvers.

[Michael Malice]

The most boomer thing ever. Remember the WW, the information superhighway keeps us all connected, bro.

[Emily]

You are Larry Summers. You don't need to be thirst trapping in your email signature like that seems so obvious.

[Michael Malice]

So just wait, wait, wait. I'm sorry. I'm seeing this for the first time now instead of. First of all, I like that he calls him Jeff.

[Emily]

Yep.

[Michael Malice]

So he just replies with. He doesn't wait within a minute. It's within a minute he goes, can.

[Emily]

You show me.

[Michael Malice]

If Emily, if I ever ask you if someone's using real cocaine, please do not respond within a minute asking for a tour of Austin. You will not receive one.

[Emily]

A tour of Austin. That's where you find out who is using the real. Yeah, yeah.

[Michael Malice]

Holy crap.

[Emily]

And you know what? He didn't even ask for his pronouns. Didn't even ask before he went in 2016.

[Michael Malice]

That was before that.

[Emily]

I think that's true. Okay, so, but this is actually, I think part of what might be the explanation is these files contain so many pieces that Internet sleuths are going to put together into a puzzle and whether or not they have the accurate picture. If you' Larry Summers, if you're Bill Gates, if you're all of these Ehud Barack whose hacked emails have been getting reported on in drop site and show Epstein openly operating with Ehud Barak and Israeli intelligence. Basically Dropsite has a whole series of stories on this right now that there's so much like trivially incriminating information about non trivial, not always illegal crimes, but like moral crimes at the very least that they don't want people like piecing together all of these little scraps of information about their lives and their businesses and their geopolitical involvement. But I don't know, I think at this point, you know, Michael just would behoove everyone to have the information out there. I know that sounds crazy because we don't know what's in it, but if there's a smoking gun in it, they're not releasing that they're going to do a 20,000 document dump and leave the one out. So, like, what's right? Like, why are they fighting this so hard at this point?

[Michael Malice]

Again, like I said earlier, I have no good theories. Again, if there's something really. Now, the one theory I heard that's even remotely plausible, plausible was Scott Adams theory that Trump is using what's in there as blackmail, that he's the one leveraging this stuff to get people do what he wants. If that's true, I don't see where he's done it. I don't see where he's made anyone from the Democrats do his bidding. Where are the receipts for that? You know, Chuck Schumer maybe reopened the. I don't. I really doubt that. If, first of all, Chuck Schumer went to Epstein island. But even if he did, I don't think the blackmail is, you know, vote on this continuing resolution. That's not the ask. If you have someone who goes to Epstein island, you asked for much bigger fish. And then Schumer just changed his mind for this one after he got heat for the first time. So where are. If it's a blackmail thing that Trump is now exploiting, where are the receipts? Where the results. I don't see any.

[Emily]

Mm. Well, okay, so on that point, today's emails that the Dems released, we mentioned Virginia Giuffre earlier. Her name is redacted. In the emails, it just says victim. And these emails are, you know, it goes over something we already know because Trump came out loud and said it on Air Force One. Which might explain why the Associated Press story that you saw was relatively favorable, even though there are plenty of things that you could give Trump fair coverage of. Why they chose this one, like the last 10 years, is remarkable. But basically, Epstein says to Ghislaine Maxwell in an email, Trump, of course, knew because he was telling Ghislaine to stop. Or this is part of the. The email that Epstein sends saying Trump, of course knew about the girls he was telling Ghislaine to stop. Then in another one of these emails, Epstein is trying to figure out. I mean, these are the emails between Michael Wolf and Jeffrey Epstein are completely insane strategizing. Michael Wolf tips off Jeffrey Epstein. They're strategizing as to how to handle a question that CNN might ask. But let's just pause that for a second and talk about the Jafrey email. Did you read that as potentially Epstein trying to blackmail Donald Trump or trying to say that Trump was cooperating as an informant? Like when he says that the dog that hasn't barked yet. This is part of the email. That dog hasn't barked yet.

[Michael Malice]

I thought that email talking about. Yeah, I thought that email had been out since like 2011. I saw a meme going around where the name was unredacted and this email, I think had been out there already. It really sounded to me like Trump knows, but he hasn't opened his mouth yet.

[Emily]

Right.

[Michael Malice]

So if anything, it sounds to me like I'd be scared. Like, Emily, heads up, you know, someone knows about us. Like, this is like a ticking time bomb. I wouldn't think at all. It means he's in on it.

[Emily]

And then Epstein says, I'm 75% sure. So it sounds like, again, I read that as he's 75% sure Trump hasn't cooperated.

[Michael Malice]

Yes, correct.

[Emily]

Right. Yes. Yeah.

[Michael Malice]

But also he says yet. So he's scared Trump is going to open his mouth. That's how that seems like to me.

[Emily]

Right. Okay, so then that brings us to Ghislaine Maxwell, now being in minimum security prison, reportedly with a service puppy. And that's actually like been reported in the last couple of days. She was given a service puppy, has had.

[Michael Malice]

Well, Emily, they're not going to give her, of all people, an adult dog.

[Emily]

You are problematic, Michael. Malice, to say the least. But so is that, is that then the Scott Adams theory, as we're just hashing this out here, maybe that actually what Trump is doing is controlling Maxwell. And Maxwell is because from these emails that were released today, obviously Maxwell is in the loop about Trump. So is he trying to control Maxwell by withholding publicly information?

[Michael Malice]

Do you remember in. Was it 2020? I think it was. There was an interview at the White House and they said, what would you say to Ghislaine Maxwell? He goes, I'd wish her well. What, like to this day, like, okay, if you're implicated, she would understand you throwing under the bus publicly. Anyone would. Right. She's not, she's no dummy. And if you're not implicated, what are you doing? It was. So I still don't have an answer for it. And I again, so there's several theories. Like none of them work. Like I said earlier, if he's a client, I don't see any reality whether that's not known or at least whispered about. Like these rumors have a very in Washington, like people talk like things get out, like it's not a thing. So you tell me that the FBI and the CIA wouldn't have gotten that to the New York Times comey's in trouble for doing that right now over something much more minor than this. And what's his defense going to be? That that should have been secret. I mean, are you kidding me? Like, what's he going to say if like they have a red bank to rights, he's not going to have any public defense.

[Emily]

Well, okay, so then maybe the theory is what's happening is that they're, they're going to release these documents piecemeal. You get 20,000 document dump one day, then a 5,000 document dump another day and you can politically keep saying Republicans are releasing these documents and go for that, knowing if you're Trump or a donor or Larry Summers type that nobody's ever actually going to release a story smoking gun document. You know, that would be, I think the public would love it. I think it would be the right thing to do. You and I would be happy to see the smoking gun document. But nobody expects that Trump or Biden would release a smoking gun document about American intelligence, if that's what it is. Or if Biden had something on Trump being a client implicated in this. Of course you would imagine that would make its way into the public if it didn't implicate the intelligence community and something like that. So maybe that's the theory is that what they're doing is just managed, what is the, what is the term for it? Like managed chaos. Yeah, yeah.

[Michael Malice]

But it's, here's something else that's weird. Like the longest serving Republican speaker of the House for many years was Dennis Hastert and he went to jail for things having to do with child touching. Like, I don't, I don't want to get demonetized. You, I've never heard the Democrats bring it up once. It's so this is low hanging fruit. This is really easy to be like while you guys are complaining about woke. You voted for this guy to be speaker of the House and now he's in jail. You're a hypocrite. You would think that's a gimme and they don't do it. So again, I don't really have a good. There's this argument to be made that they're literally all child abusers and maybe I, you know, even Tammy, what's her name? Senator Sammy Duckworth. All of them. Rosa Delaro. Really, all of them. I don't, I don't see it. But I, I don't, I, I don't know.

[Emily]

Yeah, that, I mean, right. Although they would have, I guess, motivations to protect themselves for protecting the Clintons, I guess, like the Netflix.

[Michael Malice]

No, no, that's not true. What's your name? Kristen Gillibrand, center from, from New York. Came out against Clinton many, many years later, but she did it. So it, it, it's safe now to be like, denounce Bill Clinton and he's a big grown boy, he's like, okay, fine, like he doesn't care at this point. And they could do that. They, they posture all the time. So I don't think it's like to protect the Clintons at all.

[Emily]

The only, maybe if you want to.

[Michael Malice]

Get killed, maybe that's the one.

[Emily]

Like, you know, I mean, yeah, I think that's actually a serious possibility. The only entity, and on this point, the only entity that both parties, particularly the establishments of both parties have in a motivation to protect, as far as I can see it, is the intelligence community.

[Michael Malice]

Yes, right, yes.

[Emily]

What else would explain, I mean, to your point, if it was dirt on Trump, Biden people would have released it. If it's dirt on Biden, Trump people would've released it.

[Michael Malice]

Here's the other part of the puzzle doesn't add up. I don't think it's Dan Bongino's like ultimate goal in life to be number two at the FBI. Right. The guy had a huge successful podcast. I think he's married, family man, patriot. I don't think it would be that easy to flip him. Right. I think if there's really some nasty stuff in there, he would either resign or leak it or something like that. Because what's the down and he gets to be the hero. And the fact that he was like that hostage video which everyone saw, he's like, oh, everything's fine. Like I don't know what they could have done to flip him. What leverage could you possibly have over someone who is independent, self made, a hardcore patriot, tough guy? He was, I think he's a former cop. Like what could they have done to him that really made it like that? So, and even if they said, look, if this gets out, it's gonna screw things up in Ukraine, Middle East, Asia, who knows? I think at that point he would still resign and he would keep his mouth shut, like, you know, being a good soldier for all the sword, he'd be like, you know what, I can't do this, I have this on my conscience. Let's make up some reason why I'm resigning and I'm outta here. That's what I think he would do. Cuz otherwise it would just drive him crazy. I don't Think he's an angel, but I think he has a shred of integrity.

[Emily]

And he leaked that he was thinking of quitting back in the spring when the Ernstein problem was stacking up for the administration. So there may be something he's genuine, unhappy with. But again, that's how the intelligence community works. Obviously, you know too much, and at a certain point, you're implicated because of what you know, and you might actually be afraid for your life. That's what a lot of the JFK theories revolve around. So, you know, there's. There's all kinds of stuff that'd be going on, but I think probably the biggest possibility is that there's no smoking gun in the documents that Dan Bongino would even have access to. Probably it's word of mouth from people like Alex Acosta, who I'm sure did say what a source told Vicky Ward he said about Epstein being told that Epstein belonged to Intelligence and to leave him alone and broker that sweetheart deal. I'm sure he did say that. I'm sure that at the time, when it got to Vicky Ward, that was an accurate quote. CASA denies calling Epstein or knowing he was an asset or an agent now, which is not necessarily the same thing as, quote, belonging to Intelligence. House Oversight Committee did not do a good job grilling him on that. When the transcript was released, we could see. But I think that's probably it. Michael. I don't know. The likeliest possibility to me is that they have plausible deniability, because these mountains of files that Pam Bondi had lawyers looking through for weeks don't have. Genuinely don't have a smoking gun in them. Anything that could be has been destroyed or taken away.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah. And the other thing that was very odd, that also doesn't make sense to me, and I'm curious to hear if you disagree. When Pam. Bonnie's like, I have the list. It's on my desk. And then later, and I don't think there was a list. I really don't think Epstein had, like, a client doc on his desktop. I don't think that's out. Right.

[Emily]

But, like, client list.

[Michael Malice]

That's not a, like, literal thing, but she said it, and she goes, oh, did I say list? I didn't mean that. It's like, then why'd you say it to begin with? Like what? Like, literally, what were you referring to? I don't have an answer there either.

[Emily]

Right. She said she was referring to, like, the case, and she still hadn't gone.

[Michael Malice]

Then why'd you use that Word.

[Emily]

No idea. No idea. We have to talk about Michael Wolf, by the way, I want to put this on the screen. This is F3. Philip Wegman of RealCo Politics says. So was Michael Wolf moonlighting as a public relations advisor for Jeffrey Epstein or just almost work in a source? And that's tongue in cheek because when you zoom in on this email that was released by the Dems today, you have Michael Wolf, a tipping off Jeffrey Epstein that CNN is planning to ask Trump a question about him at a 2015, December 2015 Republican primary debate. Then Epstein and Wolf go back and forth on what kind of answer they should give to Trump to prepare him to answer those questions.

[Michael Malice]

Wait, wait, I'm sorry, did you see his email address? It's jee vacation at Gmail. Is that it?

[Emily]

It's crazy, right? I did see that earlier today.

[Michael Malice]

Does he have a Gmail when he's on vacation?

[Emily]

That's the island email address. That's the, oh, when you want to reach me at the island, that's. You got to email Jee vacation because he is on vacation time. It's, it's, it's like Margaritaville.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah, yeah. Wasting away, huh?

[Emily]

Wasting away again on adrenochrome. Oh, wow. I just wrote that off the top of my head.

[Michael Malice]

Copyright that I should.

[Emily]

It's not bad. All right, so Michael Wolf, who have you noticed lately is being like rehabilitated as some type of resist serious resistance figure. There have been write ups on his viral tiktoks, he's all over Instagram and he is presenting himself as a serious authority on all of the evils of Trumpism. It's absolutely insane. This guy writes complete nonsense that he is like wink, wink, nod, nod, alluded to being half fictional and gets treated by the press as like a genuine Trump whisperer. And here he is in this very familiar relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. Clearly, clearly Michael from this email.

[Michael Malice]

Well, don't you also remember when they had Louise Mensch as like this resistant figure and she was saying who was.

[Emily]

Going to be executed?

[Michael Malice]

It pains me to say this, but someone's going to be executed. She was Bannon, was it Bannon?

[Emily]

Yes, I think you're right. That's such a deep cut though. Holy smokes.

[Michael Malice]

No, but my point is like, you know, Mark Twain said history isn't repeat, but sure rhymes. And I think, I think it's the same thing with like, what are Eugene Carroll like, okay, this crazy person is saying things that serve our purpose. Let's put him front and center. So I also think Michael Wolf, what surprised about me at the rehabilitation is, by all accounts, he's one of the nastiest people in Washington. So maybe now that David Brock's been taking down a few pegs like that, he's like filling in his, like, slippers. But, but it is, you know, I asked, I had a Twitter poll and I'm confident you'd agree with me, Emily. I said, do you think politics is crazier now than it was 10 years ago? And like it was like 80, 80% of people said yes. I think things are really going off the rails in really many different metrics and it's disquieting to see. And I, I, I think we all forgot how literally insane this country went during COVID Like it was, it was like an asylum.

[Emily]

Well, I think that a lot when people are scratching their heads and wondering what's going on with young people, like, why are they voting in droves for Zoram Hamdani? Why are they tuning into we're going to talk about Hassan Piker later or Nick Fuentes? It's like, do you, do you remember what happened for like three years, especially for kids in blue states? Like, do you actually remember that was their formative years as their brains were developing and their social ties were forming, that they were basically like in prison?

[Michael Malice]

Yeah, right. Yeah, it's a good point.

[Emily]

It's crazy. All right, I'm gonna take a break and when we come back, we are going to talk about all things Hasan Piker's China trip. I don't know why we wouldn't. We obviously have to get to that. But first, are you looking to support Made in the USA manufacturing this holiday season? Whether it's home decor, clothing or unique gifts, it's become harder than ever to find high quality products that aren't made overseas. Small businesses in this country are struggling to stay afloat. And with the likes of Amazon and Target dominating the holiday market. And it's no wonder. That's where a warehouse comes in. Your one stop shop for artisanal one of a kind gifts. With products from over 100 different vendors, they're deeply committed to supporting American makers and manufacturers. Such a cool website. Make sure to check it out. They're easy to navigate online markets Marketplace lets you browse a wide range of independent creators so you can feel good knowing your purchase supports real people and ethical business practices. This holiday season, explore a warehouse's gift guides and holiday collection featuring handmade ornaments, greeting cards, thoughtful gifts under $50 and more. Made in the USA favorites that make any Griff gift truly meaningful. A warehouse believes that a thoughtful gift isn't about fancy labels or big brand names. It's about the dedication, creativity and care that goes into every product. So join the community of shoppers supporting over 100 vetted small business makers. Head to awarehouse.com and use code party for 15% off your first order. That's a warehouse.com, code party. A warehouseshop.com CodeParty Holiday PSA from DSW.

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[Emily]

Now with Michael Malice.

[Michael Malice]

Can I ask you a question? Oh, sorry, absolutely.

[Emily]

You can always ask me a question.

[Michael Malice]

So you're not in front of green screen. That's real behind you. Right.

[Emily]

Are you going to bitch about the candle?

[Michael Malice]

Yeah, it's triggering me really badly. I'm not bitching.

[Emily]

Are you scared to happen? You're scared because it's a candle on a wooden bookshelf.

[Michael Malice]

I'm next to books. Yeah. Like, I can't. Like, I will not. I am. I. Maybe it's because I'm an immigrant, but, like, having candles, like, lit in the house, I'm always, like, standing over there with a fire extinguisher. So just seeing it like, like dancing and coming close. I feel like you're trolling me.

[Emily]

I hope I'm trolling. It wasn't intention. It's working now. I'm going to. Next time you're on, I'm legitimately going to have, like, 20 candles behind me and light them all.

[Michael Malice]

I'll show you. I'm going to set myself on fire. It's going to be another Arab Spring.

[Emily]

Oh, ooh, ooh, that one. That's all the Tunisians watching are upset with you right now. Malice.

[Michael Malice]

Those flaming Tunisians.

[Emily]

Yes, But I get comments about that every once in a while. The thing is, though, I'm looking at a monitor, so looking at the camera. It has a monitor. And so I'm truly. It's like I'm staring at the camera the entire time. If anything were to get out of control. We're here now, actually. This is metaphorically a great way to talk about what you were just saying, which is you feel like the country is going off the rails. Your Twitter poll, 80% of people think saying politics is crazier than it was 10 years ago. Yeah, I wrote about this today and one of the ways I like to torture my guests is to put things that I've written on the screen. This is F4 and I was just thinking about the last week of what seems like a lot of people getting blackpilled in mega world. And I can't tell if it's just a very online phenomenon and if even it is just an online phenomenon, whether it's fleeting. Trump is correct that he could shoot someone in the middle of Fifth Avenue and a lot of his supporters would stay with him because they see him as a lesser of two evils option compared to the left. And that's something the media doesn't understand. But the 50 year mortgages, that felt like the dam bursting open. Then There was the H1B comment to Laura Ingraham about him saying, no, America doesn't have the workers when she pushed back and said, why can't American workers do this? It comes on top of the off year election losses last week. Not surprising, but some pretty big marks margins in New Jersey and Virginia. So are you getting the same sense that I am? I've just seen more and more this week of people like genuinely starting to become disillusioned with maga.

[Michael Malice]

I wouldn't say genuinely. If someone can go to my one you produce, go to my Twitter and pull up the cycle I have with the four arrows. It's really going to be right towards the top. This happened before. Emily, you and I can name dozens of people because Trump pushed the vaccine. Oh, I'm never going to vote for this guy. He gave us Fauci, they ran the table, he gave us lockdowns. This is ridiculous. And then, you know, a couple years later it's like, oh my God, the left has gone crazy. I, I, yeah, there you go. It's, this is the cycle. If you scroll it up so you can see.

[Emily]

That's really funny.

[Michael Malice]

Fourth arrow. Yeah, yeah, this is it. It's, it's this, this they had. Remember in 2020 when there was 2022, excuse me, there's supposed to be a red wave and every single person Trump endorsed in a swing race lost. Or almost everyone, right. Dr. Oz, there was Herschel Walker in Georgia and people were, and that's why all those Republicans ran in the primary because they're like, people are done with him. And his nonsense. There is a lot of talk that he's not electable again because people had soured on him. And then that campaign was a masterstroke. Whoever coached him in that first debate should get like a Nobel Prize or something. Because to have Donald Trump sit there and let Biden hang himself and bite his tongue was something we've never seen before, since it was absolutely out of character for him. And this kind of stuff people like. If Trump's whole Persona is, I'm a winner, come with me, you're gonna win. When you stop winning, it's like, okay, this guy's a phony, and people revert to that. So to your point, though, I don't think. I think MAGA and Trump are synonymous. I don't think that's a good point. A MAGA movement without Trump, you could have nationalism, you could have populism, you have all these things. But MAGA just means this loose collection of things that Trump kind of likes and Trump kind of doesn't. I don't think it's, broadly speaking, a well developed ideology. And that's nothing. There's nothing wrong with that. He's a politician, not a philosopher.

[Emily]

Well, the well developed ideology is political pragmatism.

[Michael Malice]

That's right.

[Emily]

I think that's right. And so with Marjorie Taylor Greene, I think it is true that she represents the average MAGA voter, but nobody can truly represent, represent true maga, pure maga, better than Donald Trump himself. Nobody can ever claim that mantle because it is Trumpism, pure and simple, and that's pragmatism. He's willing to. One point, he was willing to make a deal on Daco with Nancy Pelosi. That was like 20. Must have been 2018 somewhere around there.

[Michael Malice]

2018, when she, when they won the House, he said, Nancy Pelosi deserves to be because there was some buzz about. Some Democrats said they would not vote for her. Remember, they ran for reelection in 2018. She was a polarizing figure. They said, I'm not voting Pelosi. It looked like she wouldn't have the votes. And Trump said she deserves to be. He tweeted this out. It's still up there. She deserves to be speaker and if the Democrats don't have enough votes, we'll get the Republicans to do it. He endorsed McConnell. He said McConnell's terrific. So, you know, he's been all over the map on several issues, but people don't remember these things well.

[Emily]

Okay, so I think your psychographic is like actually very accurate. On the other hand, though, I think Think the way that I was seeing it over the course of this week, I'm going to share this post too, is that there's something felt a little bit different. I think it's always good to remember, especially with these midterm cycles, exactly what you were talking about. I don't know if you saw this from Savannah Hernandez. She's a TPSA contributor and she wrote I'm tired of based social media videos and big talk from the administration was zero follow through. We voted for home affordability and we were given 50 year mortgages and debt slavery. People disagreeing with the speed of the deportation. She goes on and says people are being arrested for quote, anti Semitic attacks. Meanwhile it's Christian children who are being targeted. She goes on and says, don't get me started on the DOJ's priorities of lack thereof. And at one point says, because Americans voted to feel safe, prioritize and protected, and every time we try to avoid our concerns, we are labeled as Anti Maga, anti Israel or anti Trump for bringing forth substantial criticism of the direction of the party. She ends by saying it's our job to openly put the pressure on when we don't feel the country is headed in the right direction. If we refuse to do so. We're no better than the entire left who refused to criticize Biden for his entire administration.

[Michael Malice]

I really hate this kind of binary talk.

[Emily]

Let's go.

[Michael Malice]

The idea that the entire left didn't criticize Biden for his entire administration is false. At the very least, there was huge criticism of him about what he did with Israel. So that's a very low hanging fruit.

[Emily]

I see what you're saying.

[Michael Malice]

And there's lots of other things where people went after him for not going far enough or so on and so forth. So it always looks on this side the fence like everyone on the other side's united. That's not at all the case. Second of all, Trump doesn't have a governing majority in the House. You really have 218 seats. 219 seats?

[Emily]

Yeah.

[Michael Malice]

He could only afford to lose like one or two votes to have anything. Imagine trying to get 219 people to agree on what movie to watch. Two hundred and nineteen people to agree on where we're gonna have dinner. It's not a thing. And they all have egos and some more than others. So for her to say, if you put up the tweet back at. Can you put the tweet back up?

[Emily]

Yeah, of course.

[Michael Malice]

For her to say, look at that thing. Scroll up. To the beginning where she says, we voted for mass deportations. We can't even get Kill Garcia out of our country. You're telling me she says, zero follow through. Zero follow through. He's not making the biggest effort on deportations that any of us have seen in our lifetime since Eisenhower. I mean, I think it's fair to criticize him, but I think I remember. Here's the thing, people. I hate this where people have these short memories. In 2024, a lot of people voted for Trump being like, you know what if he just closes the border and puts a little bit of a stop to dei, I'd be happy with it. The expectations were quite low and I think it's very clear that he met those low expectations. He did stop DEI and the border is being taken seriously as an issue. Governor Pritzker recently admitted he had a slip of the tongue. He said, oh, well, we used to have a problem with the border, blah, blah. It's like when, because you were saying there was no border problem. Now like, oh, we used to have a problem. Oh, it got resolved. I wonder what happened in politics when you succeed. It's like, what have you done for me lately? So I think it's kind of ridiculous when he's very clearly had the best first hundred days of any president in our lifetime. He has, does not have the governing majority in the House. There's only so much a president could do. And I don't think he. I think she's right about the 50 year mortgages, she's right about the H1Vs, but at the end of the day, I think he has really done better as president. We all remember his first term like this is. I don't think there's a single person on earth who could say with a straight face, Trump, too, isn't an infinite improvement as president over Trump 1. It's not possible. So I think she's right to criticize him. But to say that he has zero follow through or didn't deliver, I think that's not reasonable.

[Emily]

Your last point is one that I just want to just focus on a little bit more because I thought what she said about some on the right and it sounded like she was talking about the influencer sphere. Being uncomfortable with criticizing Trump was interesting because what I sensed was from her, an exasperation with, you know, being mad about the 50 year mortgages, being mad about the H1BS. I think your point, your rebuttal on the point about immigration is absolutely accurate. Like the left is freaking out about the speed of the deportations and doing everything, including, like, putting their bodies in front of ICE vehicles.

[Michael Malice]

Right.

[Emily]

In order to stop it.

[Michael Malice]

And assaulting ICE agents.

[Emily]

Yeah, right. Yeah, absolutely. So. But overall, I sense that there's just like, I don't know, a frustration.

[Michael Malice]

Yes.

[Emily]

That calling out the administration. Like, I was thinking about this a couple of weeks ago, just looking at the top of the podcast charts. Tucker Carlson, Candace Owens, you can include Fuentes in this without getting into the Fuentes can of worms. Just to say that a lot of the most popular podcasters right now, Andrew Schultz, another good example. Tim Dillon, good example. They're being critical of the administration and the influencers on the right actually aren't. Like, they're still acting like it's kind of 2016, 2017, cheerleading for Trump. And to me, it just seems like people are genuinely missing that there's an appetite for some more nuance in the Trump conversation from the right.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah, I don't know. I don't think people like nuance at all that. I do think they want criticism. Because here's the thing. If you can't get an airplane and if you're. If I'm the chaos candidate, if I'm the guy who comes to Washington and f. Shit up, up, when shit's effed up, it's my fault. That's the perception. Right. Because I'm the guy who brings the.

[Emily]

I mean, I blame you every time a flight is delayed.

[Michael Malice]

Well, I have the guy sitting on that wing tearing up the things like.

[Emily]

Zone, the colonial woman on the wing.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah.

[Emily]

So, like.

[Michael Malice]

And the thing is, if you have such a good track record and things come to screeching halt, people get bored and they're like, okay, what next? And I also think, at the end of the day, our system does not make it easy. Even if there were none of these marches to rip people from their homes and throw them out, there has to be due process. Understandably. So. Yeah. It's. It's. He knew this was going to be an uphill climb. And I, I don't know any politician in our lifetime who's tried to do take this more seriously.

[Emily]

One more quick break and more with Michael Malice right after this. Recently I learned about colostrum. The very first milk. You know what I'm about to say? It's known as liquid gold that babies receive from their mothers after birth. I always have to say it that way. Otherwise I get comments packed with protein, natural growth factors, antimicrobial peptides that work to enhance your immune response, reduce inflammation, repair, and balance gut lining, reduce bloating and make your hair and skin look amazing. So amazing. Today's sponsor Cowboy Colostrum offers the highest quality cow colostrum available in the US 100% made in America from 100% American grass fed Cow House. They don't over process or strip their colostrum leaving it whole, full fat and high protein for ultimate nutrient density. It's the highest quality bovine colostrum you can buy and Cowboy is easy to drink, made with delicious natural ingredients and no artificial flavors. Simply add a 3 gram scoop of either their chocolate, Madagascar vanilla or strawberry into your coffee or smoothie. I like the strawberry. I like it in milk. Super good. For a limited time, our listeners get up to 25 off their entire order. Just head to cowboycolostrum.com afterparty and and use code AFTERPARTY at checkout. That's 25% off when you use code [e-mail] afterparty after you purchase they will ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show. This really does help a lot. And tell them our show sent you over that way.

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[Emily]

All right, we are back with Michael Malice, who last time interrupted me as I was trying to plug his podcast. You're welcome. And his book Not Sick of Winning A History of President Trump's first 100 days in office. Malice, where do you stand on Hasan Piker as an anarchist? You've got to be. I mean, I don't know. Are you an accelerationist Anarchist? Where are you here?

[Michael Malice]

Well, I'd like to. There's some Wordplay here. I'd like to be standing on him literally while he's in the ground. Is that, does that answer the question? I think, I think anyone who, I really loathe this kind of champagne socialism kind of thing, this kind of limousine leftism, it really rubs me the wrong way. I think he is someone who just says really nasty things and doesn't really have much accountability for it. And what accountability could you really have? It's like you have a microphone, you have the First Amendment. But I do think he's, he's a bad person and a bad actor and it just, it's, it's. I mean, I don't really have anything particularly insightful to say about him.

[Emily]

Well, he's on a tour of China and was live streaming in Tiananmen Square. This is pretty clearly his. You know, he live streams for hours and hours and hours. If you've missed the kind of boat on Hasan Piker, he's a leftist streamer. Go watch his interview on the New York Times with Ross Douthat to get a flavor of what Hassan Piker ism is. He's, I think he's like my age, 30 something, early 30s. He's Jenk Uygur's nephew, came up through the Young Turks world, is such a successful twitch streamer. Came up through talking about politics while playing video games that he lives in a mansion and has a lot of, you know, when I was at the DNC last year, I'm telling you, a lot of young Dem staffers flocking over to Hassan Piker. He was at the Zon party last week also getting swamped by young leftists. So now he is in China. Let's go ahead and roll S3 to get a flavor of that.

[Hasan Piker]

What makes it, I mean, what makes it interesting for me at least is like seeing so many people from all around the country literally travel here just to see this.

[Michael Malice]

That, that part is insane.

[Emily]

Look how many.

[Hasan Piker]

Like, I just don't, like, I, I'm not, I don't have any sort of patriotism in my heart for, for any. Yeah. For America. But just in general, I'm not like a very, you know, I care about people.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah.

[Hasan Piker]

So for me it's like, it's, it's hard to comprehend.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah.

[Hasan Piker]

But I do understand it in some ways and I kind of wanted to talk to some of the people here because like all of the old people that you see around.

[Emily]

Right.

[Hasan Piker]

You have to remember every single person that you see around us, that's like, especially if they've been around, especially if they've been a lot alive since, like, the 70s or the 60s. They have seen a radical transformation in their lifetimes unlike any other country.

[Michael Malice]

Right.

[Hasan Piker]

So for them, I think there's a lot of pride in that.

[Emily]

Well, malice, I would say the generation before that generation saw a pretty radical transformation in Chinese history.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah, he's standing on. We're on June 4, 1989. A lot of young people who would have, in other contexts, been Hassan piker fans mowed down by tanks and slaughtered. I don't know the numbers off top of my head. And that footage was later shown in places like East Germany and other places in the Eastern bloc. I wrote about my book the White Pill. If you want to talk about transformation. What about East Germany? What about Romania? What about all these other countries which had dictatorships and transition peacefully into successful liberal democracy? So to be walking around there and, you know, where so many young people who wanted freedom were slaughtered and. And just being like, oh, I don't have any patriotism in my heart. It's just like, you, you know. You know what? So stay there, you know? I, I, I, I, I, I. I don't want to dunk on him because I don't think this is, like, some, you know, dumb college lefty on Twitter like that. What's her name? Juliana, Whatever her name is. From Texas.

[Emily]

Oh, don't you dare.

[Michael Malice]

£400.

[Emily]

Olivia Julian' outrage coordinator.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah, like. Like she's some dumb chick who has opinions on Twitter. Who cares, right? Like, I don't. Like, it's funny to dunk on her because she. Whatever. She's kind of silly and a cartoon figure. This is just. This is just real malevolence. Like, this is just walking on bodies and. And at a certain point, it stops being funny and just. Yeah, it starts being cute, and it's just like, is there any. Any throat you won't slit? It's just. It's just. Just horrific to me.

[Emily]

Let's actually, I want to pull up this video because I think, given what you just said, it's relevant. This is another piker stream from China. He. He got, like, censored, basically, in Tianan Square. The he. You could see on the stream people pulling over, asking to see his phone, authorities pulling him over as he was walking, asking to see his phone. And then it just. The stream just went to black. Here's more, though, from Hassan.

[Hasan Piker]

In my conscience, I have already become Chinese. Okay. We were already white Chinese in this chat. I've already become full Chinese. Okay, Let me just Start by saying that it's sick.

[Emily]

Okay, this is a little buzz.

[Hasan Piker]

Like, you have abundance, style, consumption paired up with a centrally controlled economy, an economic system that has yielded tremendous development. You have 1950s Soviet era building blocks next to the Gucci store. If there was more, if there was ever a country that represented the synthesis, the things that I enjoy so much personally, if ever such a country existed, I do not know. You have to try the premium grilled chicken sandwich in McDonald's China, or I'm going to report you to the CCP officials. You have met me at a very Chinese time in my life. Chat bad.

[Emily]

Okay. Reaction, Malice.

[Michael Malice]

I can see like, Rachel go all, what the hell? It's just yellow. Like, what is he talking about? I become Chinese. They don't want you. It's, it's, it's.

[Emily]

And they, they very specifically do not want Muslims, by the way. That is the entire situation in Xinjiang. And he's sitting down with a journalist who's been whitewashing the Xinjiang allegations.

[Michael Malice]

It's also, they have camps if you're in prison there for. People are in prison for political reasons. They, they experiment on you. Like, the human rights abuses in China are insane. And even without those, like, cases where they're extreme, no one else has any kind of freedom, free speech. It's just, it, it's, it's just very, very disquieting to me to see something like this. I don't know how else to put it. I don't think I have any particular insight. But I mean, if I'm, I would imagine. My high school was half Asian. I went to Stuyvesant, New York. I imagine if you come here, first generation, second generation, and you see this guy in China, you know, dancing around and singing its praises, it's like, I can only imagine what going through your head.

[Emily]

Well, in the context of the Mamdani election last week, where we were discussing this early in the show, that Peter Thiel email is making its rounds again about how, what does he say? Like, 80% of opposition to capitalism can be chalked up to. Or he says something like 80% of culture war battles can be chalked up to economics, like cost of living problems that younger people are experiencing. This is when he was more talking about millennials like it was roughly 10 years ago, but it's getting re upped again because that feels as current now as it did then. And malice. I'm just, I think you might have some insight into why the Hasan pikers of the world feel appealing to or sorry to people right now living in 2025, especially younger people.

[Michael Malice]

If I'm young and even remotely center left, right, how am I gonna look at Joe Biden and Kamala Harris as people who care about me and are fighting for me? They're both. Biden especially. I mean, talk about a total corporate party hack. He's been around since the 70s. He's a puppet of the Democratic Party. I'm not going to be inspired by this guy. I am going to be inspired by Bernie. I am going to be inspired by people who see me, who speak to me, who make me feel seen and respected and recognized. So, and the other thing is, if the establishment of the Democratic Party hasn't served me as a young person, I'm going to go with the guy who's on the left who upsets them because, like, aha, like, he's making them angry. That means he's. He's putting forth uncomfortable truths. He's going to actually go there and make a big difference. I am not too concerned at all about Zoran Mamdani. I don't think he'll be very different from de Blasio, who is, like, also, like, a commie. And I'm very, very glad that the New Jersey and Virginia elections went so heavily for the Democrats, because if those were close and he won in New York work, the Democratic Party in the midterms would tilt very heavily left. Because when your house has been destroyed. Right. How am I going to rebuild? Emily's going to say, let's rebuild in the middle. I'll say, let's rebuild in the left. All right, let's look at the tea leaves. And if. If the left had been the victor. All right, we got to go the left. But the fact that you had these presented as moderates in New Jersey and Virginia who had huge blowouts against perfectly fine candidates, that is telling me and the Democratic Party leaders which direction to go.

[Emily]

Okay, so if you're talking to maybe a piker viewer and explaining to them why the idea of a Gucci store next to the Soviet building blocks that Hassan just referenced having seen in China, which I'm assuming he's referencing, like, industrial capacity, big buildings, new buildings that I've seen.

[Michael Malice]

The Gucci store, I was in that. That there on my way to Pyongyang, North Korea. So he's not wrong. There's like a. Like, I was there. There's an Apple store. And when I was at the Apple store in Beijing, I try to look up Tiananmen Square, and it's just A black it like it doesn't come up on Google.

[Emily]

Really?

[Michael Malice]

Yes.

[Emily]

Okay, so what's your response then to somebody who says the idea of Gucci nixa, you know, this marvelous industrial capacity, it can be done. We can have Stalin and Gucci, we can have Stalin in Gucci. Is that ever possible?

[Michael Malice]

My response would be how did you get my contact info? Like, I'm not really kidding. I think at a certain point where someone is so has a framework so different from your own, the cost benefit analysis of trying to bring them to anything remotely reasonable is not there. And I think, I don't hew to this idea that this democratic ideal that everyone should get together, have a big conversation, there's certain people who should be just marginalized and not engaged with.

[Emily]

With.

[Michael Malice]

And if you're singing the praises of concentration camps and totalitarianism, I'm not interested in bringing you toward like a Hillary Clinton liberalism. I'm not.

[Emily]

It's, it's interesting in this media environment though because I think, you know, I'm 32 and after the wall fell, that's my entire life. And I think for a generation of people my age and especially the generation of people younger than me who were born after 9, 11 and are now in college and out of college in the workforce, voting and such, this, a lot of the propaganda is very, it's much easier to believe when you weren't around as the wall was still up, we weren't around to see the Cold War. I mean, I think it's easy to brush that aside as like, oh, it's the Uyghurs, that's CIA talking points, which by the way, some of it might be CIA doesn't mean all of it is CIA. There's mountains of evidence of what's happened in Xinjiang. So it just feels like in this media environment it's an uphill battle to even have that conversation because nobody trusts anything.

[Michael Malice]

And here's the other thing. Just accepting the CIA talking point doesn't mean it's false. The CIA is going to exploit realities to further its agenda. So it's just very bizarre to claim that whatever the CIA says is a lie. Whatever the CIA says is self serving, but that doesn't mean inherently they're just making things out of whole cloth.

[Emily]

Not that that would be beyond them. They have done. Right? Right. Yeah, but don't you think it's right now it's just like trying to convince people of what's propaganda and what's not. Especially like historically, it just feels almost impossible. It's like speaking a different language.

[Michael Malice]

Yes. I think we're. And I think what I'm terrified about is AI is going to escalate this because the AI is my algorithm is going to feed me things that validate my perspective and keep away things that, that contradict my perspective and it's going to see very easily evolutionarily what I click on, what I don't. And everyone is going to have a self reinforcing reality. And I don't know where you go from there. And I think it's happening already.

[Emily]

That is completely terrifying. Let's talk about MSNBC's rebrand. Let's check in on MSNBC Ms. Now. The rebranding to Ms. Now for a lighter store malice they were caught by the Washington free beacon. Here's F5. We can put up on the screen hiring black actors to feature alongside its white actors in a racial justice themed ad promoting the Ms. NOW name change. I do think it should be pronounced Miss now because they were so dumb to go from Microsoft, NBC to something that literally looks like Ms. Now. Incredible memes when that was first announced. Unless we forget. But, but let's roll the clip here. This is S2. This is the ad is Rachel.

[Michael Malice]

We the people.

[Emily]

Yes.

[Michael Malice]

Of the United States in order to form a more.

[Emily]

It's the free beacons Edit ziprecruiter.com and.

[Michael Malice]

All powered by intuitive. No. For hospitals, care teams, patients, surgeons in training like me. No, of the United States. Oh my God.

[Emily]

It's crazy.

[Michael Malice]

No.

[DSW Announcer]

States.

[Emily]

Sorry everybody, but we are no longer seeing people for the this role.

[DSW Announcer]

Y' all listen to the man.

[Emily]

It keeps going.

[Michael Malice]

No, we the free.

[Emily]

Sad ass.

[Michael Malice]

We the proud.

[Emily]

Was that sad ass black folk. That's what the title of the show was of the act.

[Michael Malice]

They should have fired Joy and Reed. Huh? Because she could. You could have given her a bunch of different wigs and she could play both genders with that potato head. Right. You could have had her to be anything. She could be a baby. Just put her in a crib. Just crop it.

[Emily]

Babies love msnbc. I'm sorry.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah. God. What do you want me to say? I mean it's, it's, it's a. Beyond a far. You know, I'm going to transition to something that's actually really interesting, you know, where you're not going to see black people. Did you watch the Nancy Pelosi retirement video.

[Emily]

Yet? No. This is an interesting point that you made. I saw you made this point on next. Lay it on us. Let's go.

[Michael Malice]

So Nancy Pelosi of San Francisco, that far right radical right wing jihadi city. She's retiring from Congress after literally 5,000 years. She released a six minute video saying her goodbyes. Six minutes. So it's not like there's time constraints. Here are things that Nancy Pelosi did not mention in her six minute long video. She talks about AIDS at length, which obviously affected San Francisco enormously. She does not mention the word gay, homosexual, LGBT or trans once. To not mention those words when discussing aids. If it was a conservative, you think, oh my God, this is despicable. You're just whitewashing this because you don't want to talk. She doesn't mention her black. When she mentions diversity, they show white family. She doesn't mention Black Lives Matter. What does she talk about? The pride flag flashes for a second at three minutes and like 10 seconds. She talks about Veterans Day, loves the military and how much she loves St. Francis. And there's a photo of a church and it's a long shot and there's the statue of Saint, oh, Saint Francis. When's the last time you heard Nancy Pelosi talk about St. Francis? It's, it's, it's right. Never. Literally never. She's been around, she knew him personally and she's never mentioned him until now. So I think conservatives need to wake the F up. I was on Gutfeld earlier in this year and he was making the point in his monologue that the Democrats are never going to win again. And I said, you guys are crazy. It's not even the end of first quarter. You're having your victory lap. They are not dumb people in the Democratic Party because the role of the Democratic Party is to season, hold on to power and they will throw anyone under the bus in order to do so. And I'm shocked at how quickly the conversation has changed. Here's the other thing. In the same way that as gay marriage got more and more comfortable for Americans, it became an issue for Republicans because you alienated people are gay friendly and gays or you alienate conservatives, you don't know how to walk that tightrope. And when Supreme Court decided to legalize gay marriage everywhere in America, all the Republicans were very relieved and they stopped talking about it. No one was talking about overturn this constitutional amendment. They're like, oh, I guess it's just settled. Unlike every other Supreme Court decision where they fight. Well, this one's settled. And this thing with woke that people like Pelosi are perfectly happy to have it off their desk because now they don't have to alienate their base and they could keep pivoting and encouraging suburban moms in the center. So this has been a huge gift to them to have that be taken off the plate.

[Emily]

That's fascinating. Yeah, we're going from kneeling in 2020 to barely even mentioning anything, gesturing in that direction in her farewell retirement announcement. Actually wanted to ask you before you leave, Michael, about the story you highlighted on Acts from Deadline, where the headline was, nearly half of LGBTQ TV characters are canceled. GLAD finds, quote, a dangerous precedent because it does, in a way tie back to this free Beacon story about the Ms. Now video, which featured black actors to go alongside its white anchors. I mean, this is. They kind of created the situation for themselves, did they not? They're the. And then GLAD is holding them to the standards that they accepted from GLAD for like a decade.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah, but GLAD can't do anything. I'll give you two. Two very obvious examples. 2020, if you didn't have a BLM square on your Instagram, your company's in trouble. Right. The guy who was the head of CrossFit said, why would we do this? We're a gay fitness company. What do we have to do with blm? He was out the door. Kamala Harris and Joe Biden become president, vice president, president. They wouldn't even turn their calls. BLM was publicly saying, we can't even get someone on the phone. You and I would have both thought, I think, think that at least you give a meeting, you send the vice presidents the vice president's job. They shake hands and they go to funerals and then it's a photo op. It goes away publicly. They wouldn't even take their calls. And also, Bill Clinton put forth the most anti gay legislation we've seen in decades. Doma, Defense of Marriage Act. People forget Barack Obama campaigned against gay marriage. Dick Cheney was for gay marriage for Barack Obama. Because as early as late as 2008, this was a controversial issue issue. But the gay community loves Bill Clinton. They pretend it never happened. Like, oh my God, you're amazing. Blah, blah, blah. Hillary, you're amazing. You campaigned against gay marriage in 2004. Look this up. John Kerry went to Bill Clinton to ask for advice and how to feed George Bush. And Bill Clinton told him, run against gay marriage. And John Kerry said, I'm not going to do that. And if he had done it, he would have won because he barely. Bush barely squeaked through a victory in 2004. So he was more than happy to throw people on the bus. Us, we See this? In England, the party, the equivalent of Democrats is the Labor Party. It's called Labor. And as soon as people in unions voted for Boris Johnson, did you know they're all white supremacists? Oh, these people in unions, they're all racist. We hate them. Your party's called Labor. They don't care. All they care about is seizing and maintaining power. And for people who doubt this and who think the Democrats would never throw this constituency or that constituency on the bus, ask yourself this. If Nancy Pelosi, Joe Biden, or Chuck Schumer had to choose between whatever group you want and them having power or their own family and them having power, what you think they're going to choose? Is that really a hard question?

[Emily]

No, that sounds completely accurate. And for Pelosi to come, of course, yes. To come from San Francisco, the frontier of the gay rights movement, and to have her career actually map pretty neatly onto the arc of the gay rights movement starting in the 1980s, 90s, 2000s. I think it does show that the, the gay rights generation of Democrats clashed with the like, cultural Marxist generation of Democrats in a way that is not gone. This is going to dog them years of the future. Because millennials, like I was at the Aspen Institute earlier this summer, I covered it on the show. It's like these people are still doing the pronoun thing. And it was all millennials. It wasn't the Zoomers, wasn't the Xers. It was all millennials. And they will obviously continue to be drowned out, but they're going to be powerful. We're going to be powerful for a long time into the future.

[Michael Malice]

Yeah, I think that's true. But I also think that people, it's, it's very hard to make people care about trans issues when you can't get an airplane or you can't put food on the table. Like, people just don't care. People cared a few years ago because it's a way to posture. Look how open minded I am. Screw you, dad. You know, I've got a trans friend who's an accessory, but as soon as that costs you the White House, it's like, yeah, goodbye and good luck.

[Emily]

Well, Michael Malice, host of. You're welcome. Thank you. That's a good, that's a good way to put it. He's the host of your welcome. I'm thanking him. Michael, thanks for coming back on the show. It's so much fun to have you here. I will be back with 100 candles next time you're on.

[Michael Malice]

Always a pleasure.

[Emily]

It's a promise. All right. Oh, always so much fun to have Michael here. Well, I promised at the beginning of the show that I would have some original reporting on. Dare I call it groipergate? I really don't want to call it groipergate. This all kicked off. We've covered a couple times on the show. My general position is that it's been over discussed that the issue of Tucker Carlson interviewing Nick Fuentes and then the Heritage foundation president standing with Tucker Carlson against donors and then leaks coming out of the Heritage foundation criticizing Kevin Roberts in a million different ways. My general position on this is that it has been overblown. The entire issue. While legitimate, I do think there is legitimately a problem with young people growing up in this economy, in this political climate, looking at more radical, infringe ideologies as a sort of balm and, you know, either in a nihilistic way or an optimistic way. We could talk about this with the Luigi cult, We could talk about it with the Fuentes cult. We could talk about it with the, like, weird Tyler Robinson supporters. It's obviously a thing. And yes, that means it's. It's happening to some young people on the right as well. But my general position on this, since it started with the Young Republicans group chat text leaks, where they were joking in overt, just like stupid, unfunny ways about Nazis and racism, there were utterly powerless people. Yes, one of them was like a state senator. Yes, they had different positions in like the official GOP apparatus. I wouldn't dismiss that. I obviously think they were punished appropriately, but they weren't representative, truly. I mean that they. I really mean that, that they weren't representative because they were expunged. They were immediately kicked out. If everyone was doing that. You can't kick out people for doing it. Nor would you. And you know, I think the same thing right now, just about this entire conversation over how many people are truly like groipers. Many people are just watching Fuentes for entertainment value or anything like that. And it's these questions, by the way, I should mention this. It is so like to even have to. I hate looking this stuff up. I hate having it on my phone. I just like, I'm so just thoroughly disgusted by some of the stuff that comes out of like the meme world. And that sounds like me being a, a cringe millennial. But even dwelling in this for too long, it's such a dark place. Such a dark place. And the other thing is, you probably experienced this too, like, as a Journalist in particular, you really don't ever know what's happening to your data because it can be bought by the government, it can be bought by private actors who then give it to the government. It can go in all kinds of different ways. And so, I don't know. We talk all the time here about big tech censorship, like the Twitter files, Facebook suppressing, 2020 stories, YouTube demonetization, all of that stuff we talk about in censorship. Though it's not just about what you can say, it's also about what apps that you can access, what content gets throttled, what gets buried in the algorithm. And I think this is important. Even the kinds of information that you seek out, right. You start to sort of self censor and say, well, I don't even want to look this up because that's going in my search history. But that's like the cool thing about some of the new parallel economy stuff coming out. It's one of the reasons actually they use the upphone right here. You can see it. You see all the apps right there. They have their own app center. It's got access to 2 million apps. They're free from big tech censorship. You're not locked into Apple's walled garden or Google, Google's app store where they decide what you can download. And then every app goes through a firewall and you can see the information on the firewall that is collected or prevented from being collected every single day. It prevents them from transmitting your location, your private data to data brokers. It's really digital freedom in the truest sense. You can check it out, check it [e-mail] My favorite feature is one of the things you can see on the side of the phone. I'm literally going to show this to you. It's the battery disconnect feature right there. If you can see this on the side of the phone right here, I'm going to point at it. The battery disconnect feature, you can actually remotely activate. A lot of people don't know this, your phones when they're off, so that compromises your privacy. But the up phone, battery disconnect, it's that switch just on the side of your phone. Let's say you're going through customs and they ask to look at your phone because your general or whatever else, and we've seen the way that people are many times unfairly connected to data or whatever else it is, you just switch this off, physically switch this off and it securely powers it off. So you don't even have to Worry about unauthorized camera or microphone access. And if you need to go dark or travel from one place to another with total privacy, you just do it manually on the phone. That gives me some peace of mind, truly gives me some peace of mind when thinking about all of this stuff. Because even again, I think about this as a journalist and I know most average Americans aren't journalists. But if you think about all of the power that is being concentrated in the hands of like law enforcement around the country and all of that, there are a million ways to tie someone based on what's on their phone to something in one direction or the other direction. Actually that has happened, by the way, to Tucker Carlson who is the feature of of the story. I mean his stuff from that got pulled out of his phone and discovery and the Dominion lawsuit, all of it. You know, whatever you think about what's in the content of that, it's peace of mind to know that, say you get pulled into something, it's not coming, you have control over your data, if that makes sense. So it's just an element of peace of mind. And with the talker stuff, I've been thinking about this quote that I read from Rod Dreher who's on the show recently and is somebody that I read every single thing he writes. I commend his book Living in Wonder, his book Live not by Lies. I talk about how good Roger's stuff is all of the time. He has been in the last couple of weeks thinking a lot about the griper question and groiper gate and all of that. And he wrote in the Free Press today, quote, for some time now I've been hearing from conservative friends who teach in high schools and universities that anti Semitism and white nationalism are on the rise among their white male students. More recently, conservatives in Washington D.C. have been saying to me that the influence of neo Nazi Holocaust denying live streamer Nick Fuentes has taken off among Gen Z congressional and administration staffers. One older insider put the number of Fuentes fans and fellow travelers, so called gripers in these Washington circles at 30 to 40%. That's a number that Rod published on his blog. I think it was last week and then repeated another time. And I started hearing from it in people in D.C. being like whoa, 30 to 40%. I saw some people on the left like Derek Thompson posting it and it was being taken as a serious representation of what young conservatives here in D.C. are like. And so Rod continues to say in the Free Press, huge if true. If as the kids say last week I Went to Washington for a few days on business and had a number of conversations with zoomer conservatives about the issue. I asked them about the scale of the gripper problem in light of the controversy rage. He said, here's the bad news, it's worse than I thought and nobody knows what to do about it. I ran the 30 to 40% claim past the conservative zoomers I spoke to in DC. Every one of them affirmed it. Christian faith, they explained, has not inoculated young men against anti Semitism, which is now infused in the conversations of conservative Catholic, Protestant and orthodox members of Gen Z. Two Christian zoomers told me that anti Semitism is sometimes used as a litmus test to join particular social groupings. Now, if you know my background background, you probably know that I come out of the conservative youth movement. I was one of those conservative college students active when I was at George Washington University. So I've been in D.C. since about 2011. I immediately went to work in the years after for the conservative youth movement and when I went into journalism ended up for about 5 years working part time as the director of the National Journalism Center. So working with with young conservative journalists through the pandemic until literally last year and had a lot. I still speak to tons of student groups. I'm still on the board of the student group that I originally worked for. So I have a lot of conversations with the young conservatives. I make it part of my goal to meet young conservatives who come here to Washington D.C. for their internships or for their first jobs out of College. And this 30, 40, 30 to 40% figure, all respect again in the world for Rod Drehrer is like not in any way close to my experience. It's shocking to me to hear that somebody is telling Rod that and that other zoomers have confirmed it because I went to seven sources. This is just the people that I got quotes from. But I've been working the phones, I've been running Rod's position or Rod's quote past all kinds of people, senior sources, Gen Z sources, to try to see if I could find anybody who like Rod, found these zoomers in D.C. who confirmed that point. About 30 to 40% just to get the quote right here. Fuentes fans and fellow travelers, so called gripers in these Washington circles at 30 to 40%. So this is not just people who follow Fuentes videos on TikTok for the hell of it because he says weird stuff. Kind of like Alex Jones. Alex Jones is a very viral TikTok figure. It doesn't mean that people love Alex Jones as a ideologue. It means that he says funny stuff about frogs being turned gay and they watch those videos. So we're talking about, as Rod puts it here, so called groipers in these Washington circles at 30 to 40%. All right, I'm going to read through the quotes that I got as I was working my sources, working the phones, talking to people to try and find the real truth of this story because again, it is wildly contrary to my experience. Now I do think it's true that there are some real struggles, especially among young men, not entirely among young men, but especially among disillusioned young men who spend way too much time on the Internet, who often have found better friendships on the Internet than they have in real life. Shy people who went through the pandemic. And Rod has been excellent in pointing out all of the ways that the agenda of the left has created a climate in which a lot of young men are looking for answers in nihilism or in fringe right wing ideas. They grew up in capital PW Peak woke. So that's irad and I agree completely on that point. I just disagree that this is an accurate number. I trust that his sources are his sources. So not disputing that, but let me just go through what I heard. So this is a senior House GOP source quote that is bullshit. And I've met with probably more Gen Z for coffee than 90% of the other others. This is a senior conservative youth movement source quote the rising generation of conservative leaders in Washington are overwhelmingly not aligned with the ideas that conspire to scapegoat others for lack of ambition or achievement. Whatever attempts to astroturf influence they may make, a few noisy individuals simply can't be extrapolated to constitute a serious faction among Washington's conservatives. Now I heard that few noisy individuals line from another person. This is an administration switch source who I presented the 30 to 40% number to. And they said it's a loud minority, but not to the double digits. So not even like 10% is what this person said. And again, that's an administration source. A former Trump official said, all this tells us is these people don't actually have good relationships on Capitol Hill. Yes, young Republican staffers are frustrated by focus on foreign affairs instead of domestic concerns like housing, inflation and jobs. But this is just another careless attack on people by people out of touch. None of these kids want to be Nick Fuentes, a weird racist, angry loner who's probably gay. They want what every American has wanted for generations to raise A family, in a home they own, working in a job and in a community that gives their life meaning. They don't see how doing the bidding of Netanyahu or importing millions of Chinese students or Indian H1BS helps them achieve the American dream. I'll just personally tack on something to that quote, again from a former Trump official to, to say that this is part of where the Fuentes discourse, I think gets overblown, which is that a lot of people listen to Fuentes because there aren't a lot of other right wing folks who criticize Donald Trump. And so they may not agree with Fuentes, but he's one of the few people who's actually giving like detailed arguments in disagreement with Donald Trump on H1B, on Netanyahu, on the Chinese student visa question. And so because of that, sometimes it does suck people into the genuine Fuentes gruper ideology. But also you're just going to have the longer people stay away from criticizing Trump from the right on issues, again, where the right should be unhappy with Donald Trump. H1B is being a good example. The more people then end up turning to Fuentes. Now he, he doesn't convert most of them to groipers, but you don't want people even swimming in those waters to begin with. So I thought that was an interesting point. But again, he says these people don't actually have good relationships on Capitol Hill. Anybody who is saying that 30 to 40% figure now this is a senior Republican source. GOP staffers in D.C. young GOP staffers in D.C. are more fox than Fuentes. This person pointed to how all of young D.C. was mourning when Charlie Kirk was assassinated. What does that tell us? Charlie Kirk was the biggest enemy of Nick Fuentes. Nick Fuentes was the biggest enemy of Charlie Kirk. Nick Fuentes and Charlie Kirk were held up as rightfully two opposite warring viewpoints that were butting heads over the course of the last however many years. And everybody in D.C. young Republicans were completely mourning after what happened to Charlie Kirk. Obviously Fuentes himself was mourning because he had such a personal back and forth with Charlie Kirk over the years doesn't mean that. Certainly doesn't mean that he's like rubber stamping, you know, and saying suddenly that he is truly like. What's the best way to put it? It doesn't mean that he's suddenly coming around to the wisdom of Charlie Kirk or anything like that. He hasn't. But that should tell you a lot that young DC is not 30 to 40% groipers because I'm telling you, I was at the White House, that I was talking to young staff at the White House that day. Those weren't groipers, those were people who were Kirk followers. And that's very powerful to think of, I think in that sense as well. Here's a senior House source. I haven't seen any indication that the young people in this world are into Nick Fuentes or are anti Semitic. I think there's likely a category era of the neo isolationism neobi canonism that results in invoking Israel driven foreign policy versus the honest to God Hitler was right provocateurship. This is an administration source who I asked specifically to respond to Dreher's line. Two Christian zoners told me that anti Semitism is sometimes used as a litmus test to join particular social groupings. Again, I want to be clear. I'm not doubting that people told Rod this. I'm doubting that those people are giving a truly accurate picture of what's happening here in D.C. because I've spend so much time thinking about the conservative youth movement professionally, working in the conservative youth movement professionally. And this is not an accurate picture from my perspective. So an administration source responded to that line by saying this is just false. Anti Semitism, insofar as it exists on the majority of the young right is a punchline. People are skeptical of Israel, but that doesn't mean they hate Jews. They hate being told what they're allowed to think and find funny. So that is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 sources that I pinged and they're from all different places. So we're talking about House, we're talking the House of Representatives, the administration, we're talking about the party itself. This is a pretty well rounded group of sources that I spoke to who gave me all of this and said it's not even close to true. It might be round 9% at most, right? Not even double digits, which is still too many. I agree. And my position on this as we talked about last week, has been you need to earn back those people. You don't demand the trust of young people who have no reason to trust you now. They also have no reason to be anti Semitic bigots, no question about it. But the Republican Party right now should be laser focused on talking about how they are are fixing the workforce so that people can have fulfilled and meaningful lives, how they are creating an economy where homeownership and the American dream feels doable to people who feel immiserated. These are the conversations that should completely dominate the Republican Party right now. And there's been, you know, a conversation that's serious but has focused on the issue as though it is the top thing. I agree, by the way, 40% of the Republican Party was the young Republican Party were legitimately anti Semitic groipers. Yeah, you should be talking about that all the time and figuring out what to do about it. But the number is I think at best the administration sources right. 9, 8, 9%. You're always going to have some fringe, especially among young people who are into weird stuff. So maybe in the past it's been 4 or 5%. If you it might still be at that number. It's very hard now to know what's representative just of the online right versus the right in general. But yes, the conversation as we were talking about with Michael Malice on the Peter Thiel email to Facebook, folks, that's going viral again about how 80% of culture war issues you can chalk up to economic concerns among he was talking about millennials at the time. What does that tell Republicans if they want to pull people out of online nihilism and online irony poisoning and noxious meme culture give people hope offline talk about a better economy and a better world. Help restore the fabric of civil society in places that are honestly a lot of red districts that are suffering in this way. So yeah, I think the far more important thing and at this point is focusing on ways to lift people up and pull them out of misery, whether it's sending them to gripers, whether it's sending them just totally to disengage and smoke weed, live in the basement, whatever it is, or just be angry and miserable and impossible to find a partner in life. There are so many more important things you can do both you walk and chew gum at the same time. You can set the appropriate expectations. Don't just demand that people put their trust back in you after you've presided over a system that failed to see the threat that was coming from like ideology and failed people economically, failed people spiritually. You can't demand their trust and tell them they must put their trust back in you. You have to earn their trust and that will we can't promise that it's going to get rid of all anti Semitism bigotry that exists and whatever number exists on the right. But that does help. And there are people who can be saved and pulled out of despair by better conditions spiritually. In fact, this is just what Charlie Kirk was trying to do and it's why the majority of staffers here in D.C. young Republican staffers mourned his death with great emotion because they looked up to Charlie Kirk, they followed Charlie Kirk and they really appreciated Charlie Kirk, especially after he talked, started talking about spiritual and economic condition that was ailing young Americans. So I just wanted to very respectfully, of course, push back on that 30 to 40% number. I do find it to be dangerous because me, myself, seven sources, it is not reflective of our experience here in Washington, D.C. i hope that that's good news and I hope it, it does give people some comfort about what's happening in Washington, D.C. but of course, I just want to reiterate that, appreciate Rod's writing, not personal, just a response here on that number because it's, it's so alien to my experience.

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[Michael Malice]

You.

[Emily]

You know, the last I moved here in 2011, this was part of the like Tea Party era conservative youth movement and still work with students and interns a lot to this day and just, I just haven't seen that. So thank you so much for tuning into this long edition of afterparty. Appreciate it. You can shoot me an email for happy hour on Friday [e-mail] Send us questions at the Afterparty Emily Instagram. And stay tuned next Monday for more After Party Live right here at 10pm Eastern. By the way, you can tune in 2pm SiriusXM, the Megyn Kelly Channel. Every single day, Monday through Friday. I am there for the full hour hosting the Megyn Kelly Wrap Up Show. Make sure to tune in on Sirius XM111, that is the Megyn Kelly Channel. We'll see you there, everyone. See you tomorrow.