The Death of Late Night, and Hunter Biden Unleashed in Expletive-Laden Interview, with Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti

Summary

After Party with Emily Jashinsky Episode: The Death of Late Night, and Hunter Biden Unleashed in Expletive-Laden Interview, with Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti
Release Date: July 22, 2025

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of After Party with Emily Jashinsky, host Emily dives deep into the evolving landscape of late-night television, dissecting the recent cancellation of Stephen Colbert's show. Joined by Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti from Breaking Points, the trio navigates through political controversies, media transformations, and intriguing pop culture phenomena. This comprehensive discussion offers listeners a multifaceted view of current events, blending sharp analysis with lively banter.

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The Death of Late Night Television

Sagar Enjeti opens the conversation by lamenting the end of an era in late-night TV. He reflects on how Stephen Colbert's departure signifies broader shifts in media consumption and audience fragmentation.

"We think we've ended late night television. Well done, everyone. We ended the era of monoculture in late night."
[00:38] Sagar Enjeti

The discussion highlights the contrast between the Johnny Carson era, where late-night shows aimed for mass appeal, and the current trend of catering to niche, loyal audiences. This pivot towards microcultures has altered both content and the cultural impact of these shows.

"By chasing smaller, more loyal audiences, the content changed, and so did the culture."
[09:15] Sagar Enjeti

Hunter Biden's Controversial Interview

A significant portion of the episode centers on Hunter Biden's recent three-hour interview with Andrew Callahan of Channel 5. Krystal Ball and Sagar Enjeti provide their reactions, analyzing the implications of Biden's candid and often expletive-laden revelations.

"Hunter unleashed. It's part of the bitterness tour."
[22:25] Sagar Enjeti

Krystal Ball praises Biden for his raw honesty but critiques his portrayal of himself as a victim of an elite conspiracy, likening his rhetoric to Trumpian tactics.

"Hunter has such unchecked visceral hatred for everyone who's ever been connected with Obama."
[24:36] Krystal Ball

The trio debates whether Biden's approach successfully humanizes him or merely reinforces negative stereotypes about political elites. They also discuss the potential political ramifications of the interview, especially in the context of upcoming elections.

Media Fragmentation and Microcultures

The conversation delves into how media fragmentation has led to the rise of microcultures, challenging traditional gatekeepers and altering the dynamics of information dissemination.

"Institutions of our monoculture are not used to becoming microculture, and Stephen Colbert became microculture."
[10:45] Sagar Enjeti

They explore the financial struggles of traditional media outlets like The Late Show, attributing cancellations to declining ad revenues and the inability to adapt to digital footprints.

"The show was losing $40 million a year and couldn't compete with digital-native late-night properties."
[12:30] Sagar Enjeti

Critique of Democratic Leadership

A critical examination of Democratic leadership figures such as Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer forms another focal point. The hosts argue that Democratic elites are out of touch with grassroots concerns and are more focused on maintaining their power within established structures.

"Hakeem Jeffries needs to go if Democrats want to build a meaningful majority."
[44:43] Sagar Enjeti

They assert that leaders like Jeffries and Schumer prioritize party loyalty over addressing systemic issues, hindering the Democratic Party's ability to resonate with the broader electorate.

Jeffrey Epstein Case and Democratic Response

The Epstein case is revisited, with Sagar Enjeti and Crystal Ball discussing its ongoing implications and the Democratic Party's handling of the scandal. They criticize Democrats for being reactive rather than proactive in addressing corruption and highlight the public's demand for transparency.

"House Democrats have been focused on trying to fan the flames of what may or may not happen."
[43:50] Sagar Enjeti

Crystal Ball emphasizes that the Epstein revelations should be used to question the integrity of Democratic elites, connecting Epstein’s associations to broader narratives of elite protectionism.

"Jeffrey Epstein fits right into that story of protecting the rich and powerful."
[37:40] Crystal Ball

Pop Culture Tidbits: Coldplay and Devil Wears Prada

Injecting a lighter tone, the hosts shift to discussing recent events in pop culture. Emily Jashinsky comments on a viral incident involving the Coldplay CEO, illustrating the pervasive nature of social media in holding public figures accountable.

"Chris Martin calls out a couple engaged in public misconduct, and it goes mega viral."
[60:03] Avengers Host

Further, they touch upon the upcoming sequel to Devil Wears Prada, pondering its relevance in today's hyper-connected, image-conscious society.

"Devil Wears Prada 2 is in production, reflecting our obsession with appearance and careerism."
[53:57] Emily Jashinsky

Conclusion

Wrapping up, Sagar Enjeti and Crystal Ball reiterate the challenges facing both media institutions and political parties in adapting to a rapidly changing landscape dominated by digital media and fragmented audiences. Emily Jashinsky emphasizes the importance of understanding these shifts to navigate the future effectively.

"Having these devices that combine virality with constant surveillance fundamentally changes our interactions."
[67:04] Sagar Enjeti

The episode concludes with a call to listeners to stay informed and critically analyze the evolving intersections of media, politics, and culture.

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Notable Quotes

1. Sagar Enjeti on the end of late-night TV:

   "We ended the era of monoculture in late night."
   [00:38]

2. Krystal Ball on Hunter Biden's interview:

   "Hunter has such unchecked visceral hatred for everyone who's ever been connected with Obama."
   [24:36]

3. Sagar Enjeti on media fragmentation:

   "Institutions of our monoculture are not used to becoming microculture, and Stephen Colbert became microculture."
   [10:45]

4. Sagar Enjeti criticizing Democratic leadership:

   "Hakeem Jeffries needs to go if Democrats want to build a meaningful majority."
   [44:43]

5. Crystal Ball on the Epstein case:

   "Jeffrey Epstein fits right into that story of protecting the rich and powerful."
   [37:40]

6. Emily Jashinsky on social media's impact:

   "Having these devices that combine virality with constant surveillance fundamentally changes our interactions."
   [67:04]

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This episode of After Party with Emily Jashinsky offers a critical lens on the intertwining of media evolution, political dynamics, and cultural shifts. Through insightful dialogue and sharp commentary, Emily, Krystal, and Sagar provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of the forces shaping today's societal landscape.

Transcript

[Emily]

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[Sagar]

Welcome to Afterparty, everyone. It's Monday at 10pm so you know where you're supposed to be. Right here. We have a great show tonight. I've been looking forward to interviewing my breaking points colleagues Crystal Ball and Sagar and Jetty, two of the most interesting people in this new media revolution, period. They have been. I sound like a Tanji Brown Jackson when I say that period. But really they are. And we have them here on a big day where Hunter Biden sat down for a I can't believe I'm about to say the sentence three hour interview with Andrew Callahan of Channel 5 and of course talked about everything from crack to Rahm Emanuel. So we have Crystal and Sager to react to that. We also are going to be talking about the cancellation, not just of Stephen Colbert, but actually of the Late show, period. To quote our favorite Supreme Court justice one more time, time. But also it's kind of a cancellation of Stephen Colbert. We'll get into all of that. The show's still going to be on for another year. Don't you worry. All you resistance wine moms out there. I'm going to get into Harry Sisson, I'm going to get into the Coldplay CEO and then we're going to bring everything home. Hopefully it'll feel like we're bringing everything home with a little Devil Wears Prada because they're in production on Devil Wears Prada too. So we will get into all of that. Now before we get into Crystal and Saga reacting to Hunter Biden, they're also going to talk a little bit about updates in the Epstein case. I do just want to say that if you're watching the show right now or listening to the show right now, first of all, thank you. Second of all, you may remember that we opened the very first like 60 seconds of this show ever by talking about how Stephen Colbert illustrates the changes in media. We are like exactly a month in, like two hours from now will be exactly a month in to this show's run. And I think we ended late night television. Well Done, everyone. I actually sort of cherish monoculture and late night television as someone who sort of grew up at the tail end of it, arguably the golden age of monoculture in the 1990s and the early aughts. But Stephen Colbert, we said literally the kind of predicate for a show like this is because we have all splintered into these different niches because of the way there's enormous competition. The gatekeepers have been totally undermined. They're way less powerful than they used to be, and they can't really get away with the level of control that they used to have. And some institutions of media power are really, really not handling it well. Needless to say, not handling it well. But it's actually worth elaborating on that point because I always use the juxtaposition or the contrast between Johnny Carson and Stephen Colbert as the best way to explain what's happened to the business and then to the culture. So on the business end, Johnny Carson had to get as much ad revenue as possible by getting as many Americans to tune in night after night. He had like two or three competitors, and then his fourth competitor was a book. People could choose to read a book or, I don't know, listen to a radio show or whatever the hell you guys used to do before cable came along. And actually even before, before broadcasts came along, the networks came along. And so that's what he was competing with. So he had to appeal to as many Americans as possible. So what explains how we go from this era of Johnny Carson just absolutely owning late night television by being not partisan. He was political, but he wasn't partisan. And he was always focused on comedy. During the Trump era, Stephen Colbert having the highest nightly viewership on average of any of the other late night networks. That doesn't include cable. Obviously, Greg Gutfeld has been doing better than Stephen Colbert for a matter of years now. But on the broadcast side, why would the person who is the most divisive and the most partisan and often the least funny, and I say that, you know, it's an insult, but it's also because he often was not even trying to be funny. He was often trying to lecture everyone in ways that were intentionally unfunny, a far cry. He sort of became what he was parody parroting on the Colbert Report, which makes it a far cry from what he was doing back then. And he ended up actually being really popular because the best way to get people coming in night after night is to really cultivate a loyal niche following. That's predictable for advertisers it's brand loyalty, and people feel like they're a part of something small. And again, when it's Colbert, I think of, like, resistance wine moms for him. I think of people who felt like they were at their peak sort of intellectually, by being the resistance to George W. Bush, by coming to oppose the Iraq war. That's sort of like a moment they're energized by and proud of, and in some cases, rightfully so. But now, you know, as Tulsi Gabbard is revealing, a lot of the things, those very people who revered the Stephen Colbert of the Colbert Report are coming coming to see the man that they put their hopes in, Barack Obama actually was engaged in some of the very things he told them he would change about the government. And people are weirdly going back to church. Richard Dawkins is calling himself a cultural Christian. The moment has passed by the people who were so energized by the rush of watching Comedy Central at night during the Colbert Report era. And by the way, the Colbert Report, Strangers with Candy was fantastic. Deep cut, I know, but I know that there are still some Strangers with Candy fans out there, and it would be great if Colbert would just go back to doing that, because I think actually there's a market for it at the same time. But that's what happened to late night, and it's what happened to culture. It's that by chasing smaller audiences, but more loyal audiences, so very narrow, very loyal audiences, it just changed the content, too. And by changing the content, it changed the culture and some of these institutions. The New York Times is a really good example. Why does the New York Times, the paper of record, rescind that Tom Cotton op ed in the summer of 2020 that they gave the headline Send in the troops to? Why would you do that? That was the mainstream opinion of a Republican senator. Many people in the country agreed with it. Are you purporting to cover the whole country, or are you purporting to cover 5th Avenue? Well, in this case, they rescinded it because their staff revolted and their subscribers revolted. And that has nothing to do with late night comedy, except it also has everything to with late night comedy, which is that these institutions of our monoculture are not used to becoming microculture, and Stephen Colbert became microculture. You cannot manage microculture on a macro culture budget. It does not work. Puck News has since put the lie to this laughable idea that Colbert was canceled because CBS and the Late show was canceled because CBS was trying to suck up to Donald Trump. First of all, I think of. Maybe if Trump were less media obsessed, he would have the. Maybe he would have the, I guess, what's the right word? Emotional control. To be Don Draper in the elevator when it comes to Stephen Colbert and just say, I don't think about you at all. Because he really doesn't have to think about Stephen Colbert. Stephen Colbert lacks so much influence at this point that why would it even matter? Maybe for Trump, somebody who loves, is deeply fixated on media. It matters to him. But overall, this show was losing, according to Puck. Puck has reported losing 40 million. 40 million. $40 million a year. $40 million a year. That is a staggering figure. It was also. It had a really. It has a comparatively small digital footprint relative to other late night properties, which is a huge problem because Fallon is basically now a clip show for YouTube and social media and Instagram and Tick Toc. So he was obviously struggling enormously. They had a really hard time with advertisers, according to a lot of reporting that has since come out. And there are just all kinds of business reasons. If they wanted to get rid of just Colbert, they would have just gotten rid of Colbert and not the entire. This is the buried lead, not the entire storied historic franchise, which is what they are doing in this case. It is true that Paramount has a major merger in front of the Trump administration between Skydance and. So there's, I'm sure some element where they are happy to maybe spin this privately and say, listen, we got rid of your guy. I'm sure they would love that merger to be greased a little bit. But obviously the primary decision here was a financial one specific to the show, which was losing insane amounts of money and if anything was, I think at this point, hurting the brand. It wasn't funny. No, I've. I've built up to this for too long, but I have your daily Hakeem ready. Obviously. House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries, friend of the show. I'm kidding. I refer him as the unofficial mascot of the show because he's one of our favorite here at afterparty. Is one of our favorite examples of the wandering Democrats who are searching for any sense of direction. Now, Hakeem Jeffries posted F3 mourning the loss of Colbert. He says, thank you, Stephen Colbert, for your willingness to speak truth to power, staying far from timid and never bending the knee to a wannabe king. Thank you, Stephen Colbert, for your willingness to speak truth to power. This is what I mean by Gen X and probably younger Boomers who. Whose memory of Colbert is the rose colored lens of their 20s and 30s. Watching Comedy Central at night and feeling that rush of rebellion when you see Stephen Colbert fil administration on your television. I feel like Hakeem Jeffries is pretty representative of that. And actually Congressman Jeffries even posted this. This is S8. This is just a fun memory of him with his friend.

[Emily]

Stephen, you famously have quoted Biggie Smalls. Do you have any quick quote for us before we go? Stay far from timid, only make moves.

[Sagar]

If your heart is in it, and.

[Emily]

Live the phrase the sky's the limit.

[Sagar]

He sounds like Alan from the Hangover. That's what that is. He's like Alan from the Hangover, trying to relate to the guys. That's Hakeem Jeffries. I don't know why he's not in any of the presidential chatter, actually. Because that man's got it. Whatever it is that that raw charisma, star power, Hakeem Jeffries just has it in spades. But the Colbert discourse has been tiresome. Everyone has been. I mean, I know we have other things. I think Jim Himes was using some of the same language about Stephen Colbert speaking truth to power. Somehow. Tim Waltz we can put. Yeah, so you see Congressman Jim Himes there. And then we have Tim Waltz. This is posting on July 19th. So when this was announced, Stephen Colbert is the best in the business. He always told truth to power. It's like they all got the same script, which I'm sure they did get all the same script from some Democratic groups who were putting out talking points on this speaking truth to power. I mean, that is one way to put whatever Stephen Colbert did for the last several years. I just saw this hilarious clip of him going around of having billionaire Mark Cuban weirdly rap into the camera about Donald Trump. And in this strange. The idea that Stephen Colbert was speaking truth to power while pitting one billionaire against another billionaire and making stupid jokes about Shark Tank. It is so perfect. It's so perfectly encapsulates the fact that they're going to the map for Stephen Colbert with the sanctimonious language. Perfectly encapsulates their lack of direction, frankly. But there's maybe a glimmer of hope. We'll get to this at the end of the show. There's maybe a glimmer of hope, but also still some very dark stuff on their horizon. But I did want to touch on that because it was almost too perfect. Almost too perfect that our very first conversation on the show, because it happens to be anytime I go speak to students or whatever. It's the best way that I explain, I found to explain media. And so it was almost too perfect that a month into this show's exhilarating run, CBS announced not just that Colbert was stepping back, but actually that they were retiring the entire franchise because it's just not, it's not worth macro culture budgets. This is going to come for CNN. It's going to, it's coming right now for MSNBC. One of my hottest takes is that CNN plus was actually a great idea. Maybe McKinsey stared it into the ground. It had a horrible execution. But if you look at what FOX was able to do with Fox Nation, CNN definitely is envying that from a raw business perspective at this point because you have to scale back and pare back. And you also have to adapt on the content side to either saying we are for everyone or being honest that we are for this very narrow slice of people who own NPR tote bags in Brooklyn. And that's fine if that's what you want to do. You just need to be honest about it and not call yourself the paper of record or act as though you have any claim to ideological neutrality. And as soon as you can recognize that this is one thing that makes me sort of optimistic about media right now is as soon as you recognize and level with your audience and say I have no claim to ideological neutrality and let me do that right now, hopefully you don't need me to because I'm pretty open about it. But I have no claim to ideological neutrality. That's could fix trusted media overnight, which is once again at a record low according to Gallup's polling. So we're gonna get to Crystal and Sager. They have some really fascinating insights on the Andrew Callahan interview with Hunter Biden as again, some of the people who stepped out. Tucker was just talking about this with Sager on Tucker's show about how they were some of the first people to really take the plunge and go out on their own. And so as everyone is trying to navigate in the political sphere, everyone is trying to navigate this wild wild west landscape. And Hunter Biden, after years of criticism and legal trouble and serious legal jeopardy, decides to sit down for a three hour pre taped interview with Andrew Callahan and seem to be very familiar with Andrew Callahan's work. Chopped it up, let loose, said some absolutely insane stuff. It's really fascinating to hear from Gristland Saga what they made of that. And also they've been tracking the Jeffrey Epstein case closer than many, many other people have going back years. So before we get to that, I just want to say over the years, I have been clear about this. Hopefully I've been clear about this. Speaking of people being open about their biases, this is one that I'm always open about. I am not just pro birth, I am pro life. And being pro life means standing with mothers not only before their baby is born, but long after. It's incredibly important. And that's exactly why I partner with preborn. Preborn does not just save babies, they make motherhood abundantly possible. They provide free ultrasounds and share the truth of the gospel with women in crisis. And then they stay with real practical help, including financial support for up to two years after the baby is born. How cool is that? This is what true Christ centered compassion looks like. Not just for the baby, but for the mother too. And here's where you can make a difference. Just 28 provides a free life saving ultrasound. One chance for a mother to see her baby. And when she does, she's twice as likely to choose life. Preborn is trying to save 70,000 babies this year. So don't just say you're pro life. Live it. Help save babies and support mothers today. Go to preborn.com emily or call 855-601-2229. That's preborn.com emily hello, I'm Dax Shepard.

[Emily]

And I'm Monica Padman. And we love talking to people. Every Monday and Wednesday, we sit down with actors, authors, scientists, really anyone interesting, and have real honest conversations about life, success, failure, and everything in between. We get vulnerable. We get nerdy.

[Crystal]

And yes, I occasionally overshare.

[Sagar]

Me too. And I would say more than occasionally.

[Emily]

Yeah, but some of our favorite stories actually come from you, our listeners. That's why we created Armchair Anonymous. Yes, every Friday on Armchair Anonymous, we get to hear your funniest, weirdest, most jaw dropping confessions. And boy, have you delivered. Yeah, from disastrous dates to family secrets to the time you accidentally joined a cult or evacuated without authorization, we really.

[Sagar]

Have heard it all.

[Emily]

Yes, we have. And we love it. So come, come, pull up a chair. Listen to Armchair Expert wherever you get your podcasts.

[Sagar]

70,000 babies this year. That's incredible. It really is. And when you put a number on it and you try to look beyond the number and think about 70,000 babies, it just is just an energizing slice of reality. So on that note, let's go ahead. Everyone who knows Crystal and Sagar knows they sure as hell weren't going to stay up until 10pm God forbid, 11pm and they also weren't going to crack open a beer or any type of drink because they're very disciplined people with strict bedtimes. They actually were going to stay up until 10, so they were being so kind. But Sager ended up he's got a new baby getting sick. And so we pre taped this at 5pm, which you know what that means. I'm going to be in the chat. So if you're watching this live, head over to YouTube. I'm going to jump in the chat while we roll Crystal and Sagar. And after this, we're going to be back with kind of a culture dump. We're going to go through Coldplay, CEO Harry Sisson, Devil Wears Prada, three things you never thought you would hear in sequence. And yet we have them together at last. So let's go ahead and take a listen. Now to my friends Crystal Ball and Saga and Jetty of Breaking Points. This is the interview that I've been waiting for. I'm joined now by my wonderful Breaking Points colleagues, Crystal Ball and Sagar and Jedi Crystal. Sagar, thanks for being here.

[Emily]

Thank you for having us.

[Crystal]

Pleasure. As if you don't get to talk to us enough.

[Emily]

Yeah, I know. So we talked to you all later.

[Sagar]

Yes, here we are.

[Emily]

We're always ready for more.

[Sagar]

Sagar is forced me to do double duty with Crystal today because you can hear it in his voice. We feel badly for Sagar, but he's being a soldier here. He is doing podcasting with a cold. So thanks particularly for that, Sagar.

[Emily]

Oh, you're very, very welcome. I wouldn't call out sick of this for any. I actually called out sick for my own, but not for you. So that's how much we value and respect you in the Breaking Points family, Emily.

[Sagar]

Well, thank you, guys. You guys are amazing. I'm so excited to have you here. Excited to have Ryan on as well. Let's talk first, though, about this Hunter Biden Andrew Callahan interview. And one of the things that I particularly wanted to ask you guys about, Crystal, you remember we talked to you, set up an interview. You and I talked to Andrew Callahan a couple of months back when he had Dear Kelly came out. I think that was the title of the documentary, which was great. But I actually just wanted to ask you kind of a meta a media question. And I'll start with you, Crystal, just at first, like, what do you make of Hunter Biden doing Andrew Callahan's show? Like, it just seems so out of absolutely nowhere.

[Crystal]

I mean, I did watch the Whole interview I'm still processing because there were, there were moments of joy, there were moments of frustration, anger, pain, remorse. Like there was a whole arc of emotions that I experienced while watching it personally. But, but it seemed clear to me that Hunter is a fan of Andrew Callahan. Like he clearly had watched his work and thought that he would be at least if not openly sympathetic, at least like would hear him out on. He wanted to talk about his recovery and sort of just be a human being I think as well and not just, you know, a person that we hear about through the tabloids or through his photos that are released from the tabloids or whatever. So it seemed to me like in a sense he was approaching Andrew Callahan in the way. Same way that Trump approached, you know, a bunch of the podcast bros going into the election of like let me use this as a long form platform where I can sort of be humanized and not just be fed through, you know, whatever mostly right wing news outlet prism. My story is typically fed through. So that's what I got out of the choice. It's just like, like he liked this guy and he thought he would get at least somewhat of a fair hearing and have the ability to, you know, express himself in a variety of ways, which he certainly did.

[Sagar]

Yeah, I feel like we all were had the same reaction when this interview dropped. Like my, my afternoon just got booked. Watch the. I know we all watched the whole thing and so Sagar, on that note, I just want to ask how you think it went for Hunter Biden?

[Emily]

Well, I mean, I don't think this is the kind of. The thing is, I don't know, Crystal, I wonder what you think. I think it's kind of connected to people going on places where they don't feel like they're to be as challenged because I mean, I don't know how in the news Andrew is, but there's a lot of times where Andrew could have been like, well man, that's not really what happened, you know, and so it's like, well actually, you know, in terms there was a variety of different ways that Hunter was trying to spin things like the actual like news and tik tok of things that happened or asking a follow up question, let's say on the claim that actually it's ambient's fault for why the President was addled during his debate with Donald Trump. I, I mean I could think of a million different other times but I mean there's a couple of different ways to read it. Like it's Hunter unleashed. It's part of, like, the bitterness tour. And I think it's pretty clear, you know, if you. There's all these books coming out, 2024 with Josh Di and others, I think, from the Wall Street Journal team, kind of inside the Denial of the Biden White House, the Jake Tapper book, obviously. But, I mean, the enduring theme from Biden and the Biden family seems to be that they think that, you know, it's everybody else's fault for pushing them out. And I don't think they've been all that quiet about it. And I. So for hun, I mean, it's. It's more about, like, was he successful in conveying his bitterness? Like, yeah, I think so. I mean, that's. That's really. That the whole thing just seemed like a. Like a therapy session, really, you know, for Hunter to be able to just vent his grievances against all of these people. But, I mean, it's just somewhat ironic. No, like, he's calling out, like, the pod Save America guys. And listen, you know, I have my criticism, and he's like, these guys are grifting off Obama. I'm like, bro, like, what? Like, you're the president's son. Like, nobody would care. You wouldn't even be rich if you weren't the president's son. I'm like, shut up.

[Crystal]

That was one of the. But one of the things I did enjoy most about it was like, he has such unchecked visceral hatred for everyone who's ever been connected with Obama.

[Sagar]

I actually have a clip of this. Let's. Let's watch this because that was one of the things that stood out to me, is how he. And this is, I think, actually a pretty important part of doing the podcast circuit is that Dems look around and wonder, hey, what happened to Joe Rogan supporting, like, some people on the left, it's like, well, you guys demand fealty to your establishment in a way that Trump completely devoured. Like, he destroyed that on the right. He made it okay to be mad at Republican elites and be sort of a mainstream Republican. And here Hunter Biden is, interestingly, like, casting himself and his father as the victims in this elite plot by Jake Tapper and what, Tommy Veder to take down the Biden family name. Like, let's go ahead here and roll s. 4 first, first opinions.

[Emily]

But him, him, him and everybody around him. I don't have to be nice. Number one, I agree with Quentin Tarantino. George Clooney is not a actor. He is a, like, I don't know what he is, he. He's a brand. And James Carville, who hasn't run a race in 40 years, and David Axelrod, who had one success in his political life, and that was Barack Obama, and that was because of Barack Obama, not because of David Axelrod and David Plouffe and all of these guys in the Pod Save America guys who were junior fucking speech writers in, you know, on Barack Obama's Senate staff, who've been dining out on the relationship with him for years, making millions of dollars.

[Sagar]

It is sort of delicious. Crystal.

[Crystal]

Well, and it's very Trumpian. I picked up on the same thing is like here you have what is seemingly a preposterous situation. The son of the former president, who you know is also the former vice president, who is also a senator for what, 40 fricking years, right? You can do not get a more Washington elite creature than this person, right? And managing trying to position himself as somehow against the elites and all of the Democratic elites are lined up against him. And so, you know, parts of the things that he's saying when he's like, fuck Rama, manual these people. And you're like, yes, absolutely. But then it's like world upside down. Because then those people are in a cabal against Joe Biden, who actually those people propped up. I mean, they are that very same cabal is the entire reason why he ends up being the 2020 nominee, why everyone closes ranks and there is no actual Democratic primary. So in some ways the words land. And then when you think about the broader context, you're like, this is insane. And that's what I mean when I say it's Trumpian, because same thing, like, you're a billionaire. You are the former president of the United States. You have now in your cabinet like what, a dozen different billionaires, et cetera. Like, you are the deep state, you are the establishment. And yet he still wants to paint himself as being this outsider who has this cabal of elite insiders who are against him. So, you know, it's funny because, because to be honest with you, Hunter's a very compelling figure in this podcast. You have so many Democrats, so many Democrats suffer from their measuring every word. And let me not say this and let me careful about this person's feelings and let me not get out over my skis on immigration or whatever hot top button issue. He said whatever the hell he wanted to say. There was no censoring there. I mean, he actually it was a very interesting and compelling podcast guest.

[Emily]

I totally agree. Personally, my favorite is whenever he was reminiscing about the joys of crack cocaine. And almost he didn't want to. Yeah. But he was. You could see the joy on his face. A man can only talk about that with something that he's ever truly loved.

[Sagar]

And well, he also, he also made crack sound. Maha. Right.

[Emily]

Yeah. He was like, it's healthier than alcohol. He's like, he's burning off all of the impurities. Yeah, it's true. Every crackhead I've ever seen is some of. Is obviously the most pure individual. You know, that's what the crackheads are notorious for. For.

[Crystal]

I could genuinely hear RFK making like a similar point one time about how like once he started doing hair and that's when like his grades got really good or something.

[Emily]

Yeah. He was like, gives you the. This is actually very common from drug addicts. They're like, I finally felt like my true self. But yeah, I mean, with Hunter, it was, look, I mean, the one clip where I was like, man, if he didn't have the baggage, there's something. There was actually him being like, I'm gonna invade El Salvador to get back. No, I'm serious. And, and listen, I mean, look, obviously my political disagreement, view of immigration, all that stuff aside, it was compelling. Like, it was.

[Sagar]

I thought Crystal was going to do that a couple months ago.

[Emily]

Yeah, but it was compelling. It was compelling to me in the sense of, you know, like Crystal saying about Trump and just like no regard for, you know, like trying to be bounded by traditional conversation and all that. I mean, I, I think everybody can look at him as like the pathetic Nepo son, you know, that he is, who obviously had his own, own, like many myriad problems on top of creating them for the White House, etc, and not also say like, oh, you know, I could see, I could see why. I could see why he's had like a charisma kind of around him for quite a long time.

[Sagar]

Yeah. So this is S5. This is one of the moments. I actually don't blame Andrew for not going full like Mike Wallace on Hunter Biden because he was there to have a three hour long conversation and get him to open up and all of that. But this was a moment. This one was a little frustrating. This is S5. It's not that Callahan should have necessarily pushed him further. It's more just that, like there's some pretty obvious, even easy questions personally that Hunter Biden could respond to when he talks about how he actually really didn't do anything wrong except for the drugs and the women's. This is S5.

[Emily]

I've been investigated by the House Oversight Committee, the House Ways and Means Committee, the House Judiciary Committee, the Senate Judiciary Committee, the Senate over the Oversight Committee. And I have been investigated by Main Justice, U.S. attorney in Pittsburgh, the U.S. attorney in Philadelphia, the U.S. attorney In District of Columbia, the U.S. attorney IN Los Angeles, U.S. attorney of Delaware, the Special Counsel's office. Not one single person has ever accused me of a crime based upon anything that was in or discovered as it relates to my laptop. Not one. Not a single thing about my laptop. So this whole idea that there was some conspiracy to cover up the laptop, they uncover 20 years, unvarnished, of every single communication that I have ever, ever had over a phone or by text or over email or computer in any digital way. There's not one communication that you can even remotely say is evidence of a crime. Not one. Not one time, not one communication. I would challenge anybody to show one instance other than me seeking drugs for myself, my own personal use. Okay. Or women as it relates to, you know, people that were in the drug trade that I would seek for the purchase of drugs.

[Sagar]

Oh, yeah, just the drugs and the women aside. But Callahan doesn't need to be do the whole like. But actually the Foreign Agent Registration Act. But like, I don't expect him to do that. But it takes about 10 seconds to Google that. I mean, from those laptop emails, there were myriad evidence. There was myriad evidence of a fair violation. And so Sager, he was. He was an unregistered foreign lobbyist, basically, which is felon.

[Emily]

Look, I mean, it seems quaint at this point. Like, we do all of the Hunter stuff, just, you know, you're right, we've moved on. But my point is just. I mean, I think the point. What I would have followed up is like, hunter, bro, you literally were pleading guilty. So, like, you can't be sitting here talking about how nobody's ever accused me of a crime, you know, let alone what happened with the tax evasion, with the, you know, obviously trading around on his dad's name, daddy's name, for years, years as an unregistered foreign lobbyist. What is it? The gun charge? I mean, that's the one that they had him like, dead to rights on. Right. In terms of filing all that again, I don't think this is the quote, biggest issue, but I mean, that kind of gets where, you know, to Crystal's point of Hunter and like, his narcissism, he's like, I. I did nothing wrong. I did absolutely nothing wrong. It's like, dude, like again, come on. Like you've been trading off your dad's name as an unregistered, basically lobby. So we're on the Amtrak board. I mean, there's all those emails that came out. Look, put all the tawdry stuff and the drug stuff aside, like, it was literally, you know, trading off your father's name to like meet with the Chilean or the Argentinians. It was, it's just like cut and dry stuff. But I don't know, I mean, for me, I, I wouldn't have even cared for Andrew pushing back there, per se. For me, it was really about the Democratic primary stuff where he was like painting this false narrative that like, again, I mean, it's a classic Biden point where he would be like, look at him. He gave a master class in NATO. You know, during his two hour press conference. I was like, that's not what I remember. But he was zero. Yeah, he was like, yeah, it was.

[Crystal]

So is that the one where he introduced Zelensky as.

[Emily]

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

[Sagar]

Putin.

[Emily]

And that's also master class.

[Sagar]

Like, why?

[Emily]

Yeah, that was the masterclass on NATO. And then he has this bitterness to like Nancy Pelosi. And that's just where I would have been like, okay, well hold on. And then you'd be like, yeah, he's old. He got fucking old. Okay. You know, but 81, 81 years old. 81 million votes. I was like, well, okay, but you know, there's some parsing in here for stuff to be done. So that, that would be more my, you know, journalistic critique, I guess, if you will, is that he really let him get away with a lot of alternative history, not even in of its like on himself, which to me is the least relevant part, but about Biden himself, because clearly what comes through is like, this is what Biden and the fam, the Biden family. Family, this is what they believe. Like, this is their narrative for 2024. And I think that's really damaging considering the Dem autopsy. Like, we're going to talk about this tomorrow on Breaking Points, but like, they're literally ignoring Joe Biden's age and the Democratic autopsy. I mean, I, I, that's insane to me. That's literally insane.

[Crystal]

And I think that's a good point from Sagar because look, Hunter, I mean, in fairness, he's not running for office, he's not seeking a position of power. So it does create a different, like, I don't feel like you have the same responsibility when at this point he's abroad. But the questions about, okay, well, what happened under your father's administration when we're still. This is still a very much active question of like who was involved of an age related cover up and what was the reality of his functioning? That there's a little bit more of a pressing, like public interest in trying to seek answers from someone who was like very clearly in a position to know. And so basically, yeah, his line was that he knows exactly why his dad had such a poor dependence debate. It's because he'd flown around the world and he's, you know. Yeah, here, let's.

[Sagar]

Crystal, I have the clip. Yeah, yeah. So this is. Let's, let's roll S3 the ambient clip.

[Emily]

And it was that one debate that caused the full backseat. Yeah, ma'.

[Sagar]

Am.

[Emily]

And I'll tell you what, I know exactly what happened in that debate. He flew around the world, basically. And the mileage that he could have flown around the world three times.

[Sagar]

Yeah.

[Emily]

He's 81 years old, he's tired as shit. Give him Ambien to be able to sleep. He gets up on the stairs stage and he looks like he's a deer in the headlights. And it feeds into every story that anybody wants to tell. And Jake Tapper with literally how many anonymous sources. If this was a conspiracy, Andrew, you know, this somehow the entirety of a White House in which you literally living on top of each other has kept their mouth shut about, you know, like what. And what's conspiracy? Yeah, that Joe Biden got a hold. Yeah, he got old. Old. He got old before our eyes.

[Crystal]

And that's to me, where he's like, he got old before our eyes. It's like, okay, but what does that mean exactly? You know, I mean, not, not to be an a. To be ageist, because this happens at different ages and different rates of speed for different people. But yeah, it was a very noticeable decline. So what specifically did you experience there that leads you to say that? So, yeah, he tries to position it as almost like, you know, as deeply unfair. The other part, of course, is the fact that Joe Biden was the reason Nancy Pelosi and the others pushed it because he was getting destroyed in the polls. Yeah, he was set to. I mean, obviously Kama lost too, but he was set to lose like New Jersey, Virginia, Colorado, New Mexico. I mean, it was set to be an absolute and complete Democratic bloodbath, which is why they moved on him. And that part of the story also was completely left out because he wants to frame it as. And listen, this is a son, it's his dad. I kind of get it in a sense. Sense. But he wants to frame it as this sort of like elite chess move against Biden. And on one level it was. But the reason the chess move was made is because the American people had rendered their verdict. This man cannot be president again. He is too old. He is not up to the job today, let alone four years from now. And that part of the story that there was an overwhelming consensus among the American people, including among the Democratic Party electoral it, that this was not the direction to go in. That's completely left down of the Hunter Biden narrative here.

[Sagar]

Yeah, you know, actually Alex Thompson on the show like a month ago said one of the things he was reporting out after Zoran Mamdani won in New York was that there's something in voters minds that weighs on them about the Biden cover up, that makes them, that makes a Cuomo figure like seem especially detestable. And Sagar, I want to get your response to this post from Sam stein. This is F1. This is like amazing revisionist history from Hunter. Like next level, almost like award worthy. He, he notes that Biden returned from his trip to Europe on 14 June, then went to Camp David. We remember this, right? He was at Camp David for a week. He started, he got there on the 20th. The debate was on the 27th. And Sam says, how much Ambien did they give? Yeah, I'd love to know the answer.

[Emily]

That's such a great point. And you know, look, I'm a world traveler myself, myself, I sympathized around jet lag.

[Sagar]

Like I'm a world traveler story. I did once run into Sagar on a flight from London. He has a b. He has, he has his champagne out. Of course he wasn't drinking it, but he does have his little champagne and he has his little pod and he's ready to go to bed.

[Emily]

I got upgraded on that flight. Just so everybody knows, Shout out to the American Airlines credit card.

[Crystal]

All right, Globalist. Look at you guys.

[Emily]

But my point is that I, anyone can sympathize with jet lag. All right, but like let's do the math. Like you went to Europe. Okay? So that's a seven hour time difference. You had multiple days to recover from your horrible seven hour time. Also, by the way, he's flying on a plane with a bed in it last time I checked on Air Force One. So it's not exactly difficult flying conditions. Came back to Camp David and spent multiple days there and then. Yeah, to your point, like, how much Ambien did he need to recover from a seven hour jaunt, you know, across the Atlantic? That's ridiculous. So it, the entire thing, thing falls apart on his face. They continue to try and paint him as like this strong guy who just had a bad night when he literally melted in front of our eyes for years up until that point. And it just so happened to confirm what basically either was a, quote, conspiracy or actually, it's not even fair to say it was conspiracy because the vast majority of the American people, including Democrats, always said that he was way too old, they shouldn't run. It was really only the media and like high level Democratic elites who were like, no, he's sharp as attack in a lot of these meetings. And so, you know, to that point around Cuomo and everything, I have been wondering this, you know, for the future of the Democratic primary, I do think it's going to be really important for voters to establish their trust. For politicians to be able to establish their trust with voters, just be like, look, I'm going to tell you the truth. And then that needs to be a vibe that comes from an outsider. So that's one thing where if you don't like Pete Buttigieg or somebody like that, anybody who was in the Biden cast cabinet should, in my opinion, be asked on the Democratic stage in the very first primary debate and be like, why didn't you say anything? Or, you know, were you ever uncomfortable with this at the point, what was your assessment of the President's aid? It's going to put them in a very, very tricky position. And you really have to be somebody who was very courageous. In retrospect, was it Julian Castro or his brother? I forget. I think it was Julian on the stage who called out Biden's age and he was vilified for it at the time. No, that was heroic, actually. Like you're actually trying to tell the truth. And I'm hoping that this time around that that gets, you know, appreciated by the voters after having gone through this experience speaking.

[Sagar]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Crystal]

Just one, one thing I wanted to say about Hunter, just to bring it back a little bit, is I thought the most compelling point that he made about his own shortcomings is like, listen, all you people who cared so much about me being on this or that board, tell me about Jared Kushner and his deals. Tell me about Trump and his shit coin. Like, tell me about any of that. And they're selling this and they're selling that every day. They're Opening up some club in Georgetown where you can pay to rub elbows with cabinet officials and you want to pretend like you're so worried about corruption. And that I think is a completely fair point, doesn't let the Bidens off the hook for their basically soft corruption trading on the family name, something we certainly covered. But it is pales in comparison to the way that the Trump family truly uses the presidency for, you know, their own power. But explicitly how much of Trump's net worth is just at this point, you know, has, has come as a result of just Trump 2.0 and his dalliances in, you know, crypto and his shit coin and all of this sort of stuff. So I did think that that was a pretty fair point to make at this point.

[Emily]

Totally fair.

[Crystal]

Exploitation rates look Pollyannish compared to what is happening in front of our eyes now.

[Sagar]

It's also something, interestingly enough, that kind of skated on the podcast circuit this time last year. And that's the segue into what the other thing I wanted to talk to you guys about. You guys have been covering the Epstein case more closely than so, so, so very many other outlets and from, you know, when it first started to creep into the conversation. And, and that I think is probably going to make it harder for Trump in general to keep getting away among like the 30% of independents in the country among that group, I mean, not talking about the Trump base, But among the 30% of independents who actually really do care about corruption and liked him because he was anti establishment. So the question I'm going to pose to both of you after watching this Hakeem Jeffries clip is basically, can Democrats capitalize on this politically? You guys have both done amazing stuff on the substance and the substantive issues of justice that are involved here and people can go watch that. But let's stick on the politics and roll S6 here of Hakeem Jeffries. Why are Democrats just looking at this and pushing for this right now and not really during the Biden administration?

[Emily]

I support transparency in terms of the American people. The far right, Donald Trump, right wing conspiracy theorists and others are the ones who have put this Jeffrey Epstein thing in the public domain. Let's be clear about that. No one looking at the of facts.

[Sagar]

Disputes that this isn't anything that any.

[Emily]

Of us as House Democrats have been focused on ever in terms of trying.

[Sagar]

To fan the flames of what may or may not happen.

[Emily]

But once it has broken into the public domain, and there's a clear desire on behalf of the, the American people to get More information, then the right thing to do is to present the facts and the evidence to the American people.

[Sagar]

Okay, so this guy, I refer to him as the unofficial mascot of the show because I'll often feature segments of Hakeem Jeffries doing just hilarious things, stupid things. He's just so bad at politics for someone who is now the House Minority Leader. He, him, Ronna, the three of us talk to him regularly. Ron has a bill with Thomas Massie that there should be pressure put on Republicans to vote on. And I'm curious to get both of your takes on that. But him saying Democrats had nothing to.

[Crystal]

Do with this, Democrats no interest in this. Yeah, that's an indictment of you if that's true. Like what?

[Sagar]

Saying that.

[Crystal]

And Nancy Pelosi, she called it a distraction. It's like, what is wrong with you people? And look, will they be able to, quote, unquote, capitalize? Like, I think that, you know, Trump's approval ratings are way down. I saw with young people he's fallen on by like, I mean, you know, in some ways they don't have to do much because if you're just not the Republicans and not Trump right now, in some ways there's going to be a backlash and a reaction. But it's like it should be such a layup to tie together the fact that, okay, you've got all of these, that this administration is being run as basically a billionaire oligarch elite protection racket. And guess what? Jeffrey Epstein fits right into that story. And, oh, look at this, they were best friends. Trump and Epstein themselves were best friends for a decade. So, gee, wonder why he's so concerned about these files being released. It's not hard to put these pieces together and say they cut health insurance for millions of people to give a tax cut to the rich. He gave Elon Musk his biggest donor, free reign over the federal government and gutted all these programs that are critical for working class people. I mean, and then you have the Epstein piece, which, again, is just protecting the rich and powerful people who have never been held accountable in these case, one of whom is probably the President of the United States, it's not hard to put the pieces together. But for people like Hakeem Jeffries, who also is interested in that elite protection racket, and it's core to his politics, judging by the places that he predominantly gets donations from and the ideologies that he protects, texts, they don't actually want to connect those dots. And so until the Democrats decide whether they actually want to be a party of the people and deliver for people and, you know, embrace figures like Zoran Mandani who are speaking to those needs and concerns until they decide they're gonna have to make a choice between that and between whatever the hell is it is that you just showed me, Emily, because you are not going to. You, you may win the midterms. You may, you know, I'm not gonna say you never win election again, but if you actually want to build a meaningful majority in this country and regain credibility, Hakeem Jeffries needs to go. Chuck Schumer needs to go. They need to completely change course and they need to, you know, they need to take a hard stand against their own donor class and Socrate.

[Sagar]

I'm tossing that to you with the added question of if what you're hearing from Trump world, you're very well sourced, suggests they know there's potential for Dems to kind of come in and swoop into one of their key, key, I guess, issue areas.

[Emily]

Actually, I haven't heard anything. And that's very telling to me because they know, like, they know it's a problem. This is actually the. Where the people around him, they know not just know. They capitalize on this to their own political benefit. This is an issue where it's actually solely on the president and how he thinks about it. And then for a variety of reasons, we can all speculate, maybe, maybe it's a lot of stuff that's come out recently about his relationship with Epstein and the letter or whatever. Although, I'm sure, you know, the MAGA people don't want to hear it. They think it's fake. That's fine. You know, look, you put the letter out, you can look at all the other stuff, including the video. That's part of it. It could be just, I don't know, intelligence connections either to Israel, to the United States or various different foreign governments. But for some reason, Trump himself has seized as to where he wants to be. And I have not really heard, heard a lot of, quote, reach out or whatever from that community around him because they're not. They, they don't have anything. There's no spin here. They, they are apoplectic or they're despondent because they actually believed and wanted something out of the story. And then all of a sudden, there's been like record scratch move in terms of the way a Trump is behaved. But to the Democratic question, this is where you have to separate, you know, the Democratic leader from aspiring Democratic politicians. Like, I think there's a reason. Reason. Look, I Mean, to the extent that podcasts and all this other stuff matters, Theo Vaughn is out there tweeting about Rokana. Right on. And the Epstein bill. Right. And Roe was just on the flagrant podcast and she was on Theo show too. Right. So it's like, look, I just. Is Ro Khanna gonna win the primary? I don't know. Okay. I have no idea. But, like, what I do know is that, you know, to the extent of that audience, which was very impactful for Donald Trump in getting a life collected, they still care a lot about the story. You know, I've done two major appearances on Epstein. I think the collective between those 2 is like 4 or 5 million views on YouTube, maybe even more. Actually probably tens of millions if you add the podcast downloads from all of those appearances, and those are in very maga places. Can we agree on Tucker Carlson on the flagrant show at the very least? So I, you know, plus, if you add together our own show, I mean, we're literally talking about tens of millions of people who are cheating. Checked in on the story. So I don't think it's going away, but I do think it's uncomfortable for a lot of the way that these Democratic elites and establishment people are, either because they don't have the language or the knowledge. Like he said, he's like, oh, the Democrat. It's like, no. To be able to say this stuff credibly, you have to be able to call out everybody. And that's just obvious to me that, like, these demo, you know, the more Democratic party leaders and all of that, like, that's just not how you get to where you are. The Hakeem Jeffries, you know, and all these other people. It's really instructive to look at Jeffries and, and Pelosi, like New York and California, those are machine party states where you're kn. Fighting each other like your own Democratic colleagues, as opposed to, let's say, beating the other side. Like you're kind of coming up within the system to become the eventual leader where. And you know, Chuck Schumer is another example of this where I think you really need somebody who is much more willing to call out Democratic establishment and as well like your own party and as to be able to give you the credibility to talk about it to everybody. Everybody. That's just what I think.

[Sagar]

I think Hakeem can do it. I think he has it in him.

[Crystal]

All right, so brilliance there.

[Sagar]

Yeah. You and I have been up for a long time today, so I wanted to give us like a Little bit of a gift before we signed off tonight. This is F2. I want to ask Sagar. I know he's been sick, but he's probably been checked out of this. Or maybe he has been checked into this discourse. I don't know if you saw this viral take. Europe is a bunch of third world countries with better branding. No ac, no dryers. Sweat through dinner while the waiter ignores you for two hours. Say what you want about America, but at least eating out doesn't feel like hot yoga with bread and crystal as a treat to us. I just wanted to tease Sagar up to see what maybe he had to.

[Crystal]

Say about that before Sagar jumps in. I just want to say though, that I enjoy Europe. I have been to Europe at times, not in years. So for someone who hates Europe so much, much, you spent a lot more time there than I.

[Sagar]

A lot more.

[Emily]

It's true. It's true. That's right.

[Crystal]

Just put that out there.

[Sagar]

You just.

[Emily]

Crystal, it's not fair because I didn't have any kids. I was sewing my, you know, I was sewing my travel oats while I had the chance. I haven't been on a plane. My frequency.

[Crystal]

World's a big place, Sagar. There's a lot of places in the world other than Europe.

[Emily]

Come on. When we've hosted the show, I've been all over the world. All right, I've. I hit multiple continents just while the time we were hosting Breaking Points, but I just had a couple kid. I haven't been on a plane in five months or and several months. Right. I'm losing my frequent flyer status, which is just devastating for me. I don't even know what I'm going to do to an airport and have to stand in line. Boarding group three. That's like a nightmare for me. But anyway, that, that is obviously a correct take. Look, I mean, at this point, you know, like 12 people have sent me that, you know, just being like, oh, lol. People are trying to rip off your thing. I'm just glad that people are waking up to it. And actually I'll use this, this as a, as evidence for why people should stop all going to the same places. Because it's not only a bad experience. We should broaden horizons. And I'm very happy to report that this month the new travel data just came out. Where actually the city of Paris got less American visitors than Tokyo as of this month from, from Americans. Americans are visiting Tokyo now. Happy in the city of Paris.

[Sagar]

Travel data just came out. That is enough.

[Emily]

And the reason why I'm happy is that all of those horrible things you experience in Europe, you don't have to experience that in Japan. And by the way, if you go to Japan, you'll actually see something interesting. Not only you'll eat better food, you get to see some cool stuff. You're not just going to take photos with, you know, with like the same bunch of Chinese tourists in Venice who are all like blocking your thing or with a bunch of grandmas and their cruise ship signs. When you're like walking around the Sistine Chapel and you're all like crushed together, you know, you can actually go and you can see some cool and some interesting stuff on. So I would hope this is an opportunity for people to broaden their horizons. And actually one of the coolest things that's happened to travel in America today is we have massive numbers of direct flights to Asia to actually we just have a new flight that just opened. If I didn't have a kid, I'd be on this flight from New York to Greenland. Actually there's a new Greenland flight, direct flight that will be running which will replace the Icelandic. Yeah, that's right. Me and Usha Vance will be the only two Indians on that flight. So use this, use the anti Europe stuff to broaden your horizons and to go see the rest of the world.

[Sagar]

Crystal, any final thoughts?

[Crystal]

I think that sums it up.

[Sagar]

Yeah, yeah, he, yep, he, he tied that up with the bulb really nicely. Sagar, go to bed. Both of you. Thanks so much for being here. Check out Crystal, Kyle and friends. And also the realignment. Of course you have to check out breaking points because why not? Both of you really appreciate it. I was so excited about this. Thanks for being here.

[Crystal]

Thanks, Sam.

[Sagar]

Okay, lots of thoughts on that. But first let me tell you a story about a guy named Leo Grillo. While on a road trip, Leo came across a Doberman. And this dog was severely underweight and clearly in trouble. Leo rescued that Doberman and named him Delta. Fun fact, the whole breaking point. Screw everyone. Everyone's a dog person. Sadly, in this case, Delta was just one of many animals that needed help, which inspired Leo to start Delta Rescue. The the largest no kill, care for life animal sanctuary in the world. They've rescued thousands of dogs, cats and horses from the wilderness. And they provide their animals with shelter, love, safety and a home. This dedication and everlasting love to animals is Leo's mission and legacy. Delta Rescue relies solely on contributions from people like us. And if you want caring for these animals to be part of your legacy. Speak with your estate planner because there are tax saving estate planning benefits too. You can grow your estate while letting your love for animals live well into the future. Check out the estate planning tab on their website to learn more and speak with an advisor we call a dog man's best friend for a reason. You can help those who need it most, so please visit Deltarescue.org today to learn more. That's Deltarescue.org next level pet people will.

[Emily]

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[Sagar]

Actually, while we're mentioning it, not only is the whole Breaking Points family dog friendly, but Crystal and Zagar both have rescues. I will have to be reminded if Ryan's dog is a rescue. I think that's the case. I think maybe his cat as well. But all that is to say what a wonderful cause and a perfectly timed ad for Crystal and Sagar. Hope you guys all enjoyed that interview. I was having a lot of fun in the chat. I was actually probably having too much fun in the chat. But in the meanwhile, podcasters have been wild in today. Let me tell you, Harry Sisson was recently on the Adam Friedland show show. I mean, just incredible stuff. I want to get to that in a moment. But actually, as that interview was airing, Alex Jones went on an emergency Tim Dillon broadcast. Like actually super rude of Tim to, you know, crib into our time here on afterparty. I'm kidding, of course. Tim is fantastic. But let me just share this. Here's a little bit they talked about Epstein and since we were just covering that with Crystal and Sagar, I thought it would be appropriate to update us. Everyone here.

[Emily]

I'm not going to name names. And so you nailed it when you brought up I'm watching this for the first time. You got time here. I have to. We have all the time in the world. I just want to add, when Bondi said we have 10,000 hours of video, she said we have 10,000 hours of Video. I had dinner last week with the Vice president.

[Sagar]

He told okay, pause Tim Dillon had dinner last week with the Vice President.

[Emily]

President, me, that that was commercial pornography. They do not have videos of any powerful person in a compromising position. That's the party line that they're going with. If that's the case, why would Pam Bondi call it evidence? Why would she say it's evidence? She's not an idiot. She's the Attorney General. Why would she say she has files on her desk, ask if none of these implicated anybody? It just feels like they're. They're covering something for sure.

[Sagar]

Okay, so one of the things we've heard from Alex Jones in recent days on the Epstein case is that he believes to some extent there's a setup that essentially people in the intelligence community have set up the Donald Trump and the Trump administration. Or another theory that Jones floated is this idea that Trump actually, actually has been using whatever is in the government's files to control the intelligence community because he's able to wield the information in that way. But the real news right there, obviously we paused the video, and again, I was watching that for the first time, is Tim Dillon saying Vance told him last week at a private dinner, quote, they do not have any videos of a powerful person in a compromising position. So more on that to come, I'm sure. But what a wild day. I mean, did you catch. I actually just have to skip straight to this. I don't know if this is. I mean, this happened earlier today, but the Nelk Boys, if you're familiar with the Nelk Boys, like pretty maga creators, podcasters, whatever you want to call them, actually interviewed Benjamin Netanyahu. And as the video was airing, they got piled on. They get into this back and forth at one point with Netanyahu over whether he likes McDonald's or Burger King. And Netanyahu, oddly says that he prefers Burger King, which I don't think I've ever heard a single person say. Like, I don't know that. I don't know that anybody. If you. First of all, if you think that, don't admit it. And second of all, I don't know that anybody actually thinks that. But after they finished with Netanyahu, who they brought, I think at one point they brought, like, Nick Fuentes into the stream, and then they brought Hassan Piker and Adam Friedland into the stream, and it was utter chaos. So I'll play this now.

[Emily]

It's an advantage for them. They're using you guys. They're using you guys to look good. Why does anybody. Hassan. Hassan. Sorry, I'm I'm going to cut you off, Hassan. Anyone goes on a podcast to promote whatever they're doing. Yeah, they're not. But Benjamin is not promoting a book dog. He's promoting a genocide.

[Sagar]

That's the point.

[Emily]

You do realize that, like, this is the one instance where it's the worst guess you could have, because these guys are bad people.

[Sagar]

But just pausing for a second to note that, that this again, like, pure, utter, unadulterated chaos is happening. Like just shortly after, those two dudes interviewed the Prime Minister of Israel, who is currently engaged in a hot conflict and at the center of geopolitics. And shortly after that, these guys. I mean, I'm just saying that to underscore. I mean, we started this Colbert. We started this show talking about Colbert just to underscore. If you had tried to explain this to somebody in 1992, 95, it just, you wouldn't even have a frame of reference and you wouldn't have been able to write science fiction that reflected what we're seeing.

[Emily]

You're talking about is the worst person. It's the most hated man on the planet.

[Sagar]

Wait, I take that back. You could have written Idiocracy. I guess that's true. It was probably, what, like, 2000-1999-2001-2002, whatever, we agree.

[Emily]

But also, if we're gonna do it, I'm not gonna do it. I'm gonna hook your ass up. I said, BB to that guy at yosi, who's your Mosad handler? And Aaron said, who's that? He didn't know that. He didn't know that his name, B.B. i'm just, that's. They, it's an advantage for them.

[Sagar]

Just, it's just sheer chaos. But that's the level of access. I mean, if you're Benjamin Netanyahu in the middle of a war and in the middle of potential, essentially peace negotiations, the stakes of giving an interview to influencers cannot be overstated at all. And so all of the people involved in a decision like that greenlit Netanyahu sitting down with the Nelk boys. And the Nelk boys have since basically been giving a decent amount of credit to their critics and sort of granted some of the very harsh criticisms that Hasan and Adam had and said, you know, they're going to talk to the other side after all of this. But what a surreal. I mean, idiocracy, more than anything, it's kind of a left coded movie. But more than anything, I feel like it's actually a media criticism, a tech criticism. It's science fiction. And that's a weird way to look at idiocracy, because it's basically like a comedy. I don't think it's like brilliant or anything, but. But it's prescient at making a really obvious prediction, which is that some of these technologies are just going to SAP the mental functions that we are accustomed to. And Mary Harrington, who writes a lot for Unheard, had a really good, very long essay in First Things just over the last couple of days about going back at the printing press. And yes, this is a conversation both about the Nelk boys in the printing press. Another unexpected moment here on afterparty. But, but if you go back to pre literate human times and think about how the printing press itself changed our brains, reshaped the way that we think about the world, and then you go fast forward to like a Marshall McLuhan a hundred years ago who's talking and gives that maxim that's often reduced that the medium is the message. What he was talking about is not like the message changes. The style of the message changes from medium to medium. What he's talking about is actually the substance, substance of the message changes because of the medium. So, for example, if you have the luxury of writing down words in a book that's going to be read by everyone, not just people who have gone to the highest levels of academia or gone through the highest levels of academia, then you're going to write something different than if it did. And the substance, it's not just going to be about the style. You're going to actually decide what to express in a different way. If you're writing something out as opposed to if you are speaking it, it changes the audience, changes the style. And that in and of itself changes the substance. And here you have Netanyahu in the middle of a war talking about McDonald's versus Burger King. And that is just not something that would ever have happened, you know, decades ago within the lifetimes of people who are living right now, within Netanyahu's lifetime, obviously. And so it's, it is well worth pausing, I think, to just consider that for a moment and speak, speaking of people who are trying to use these new platforms to adapt their messaging to these new platforms. Again, not just the style, but the messaging itself. Adam Friedland, who you just saw there on the stream immediately after Netanyahu finished with the Nelk boys, had the one and only Harry Sisson on his show. And Adam Freeland, by the way, is doing like his new show. It's Kind of like, I don't know, it's, it's, it's like a Z way type show and it's, it's pretty good. If you, if you've followed Adam Friedland for a long time, that probably doesn't totally surprise you, but I think Z was probably the best point of reference for this. Now, Reagan Reese over the Daily Caller. She's worth a follow. She's great, Great. She flagged this moment in Harry Sisson, who's this Dem influencer, was a big Biden booster and is very much seen as like kind of an establishment shill, rightfully so for the Democratic Party, and often gets mocked by the right as an example of why the left is struggling immensely with men. Like, where is that sort of Joe Rogan voter? Where has that person gone? And are you going to recapture them with Harry Sisson? Well, this interview with Adam Friedland actually is interesting because Sisson is trying to be sort of a laid back bro and reinvigorate the Democratic brand and boy, he runs into a little bit of a brick wall.

[Emily]

I think we're already finding it out a little bit. Trump, you mean?

[Sagar]

Trump is.

[Emily]

You think? I mean, I think there's definitely some connections here between like the rise in online culture and, you know, rise in insecurity in young men and then like being like, oh, well, Trump speaks to my insecurities. He says it's this person's fault, so it must be their fault. And I'm not the problem. Whose fault? Well, Trump picks on like a variety of people. He picks on immigrants, he picks on women. I mean, he blames a lot of these things on all these groups. And you know, a lot of these.

[Sagar]

Young men will feel like.

[Emily]

Like it's not me. I'm not the problem. It's not my fault that I don't go out to parties and get girls. It's the immigrants who are taking my job. Some dumb immigrants are going to the parties. Yeah, that's right. Really? The Grammy that was going on over there? That's what Trump is saying. You got the MS.13 at NYU. No, we don't have MS.13 at NYU. They're doing freak offs with your girls. We gotta get our women back. We gotta send them over to boot. No, get our girls. You're going down the altar, right Pipeline, right now.

[Sagar]

Don't do that.

[Emily]

You were the one that was saying this is happening. I didn't even know saying is happening. You got to pull yourself. Trump is saying that MS.13 is getting too much pussy up here.

[Sagar]

Trump is not saying so Citizen goes into full camp counselor mode. RA Mode is like, bro, you're going down the alt right pipeline now. Just say no to the alt right pipeline. He's, like, wearing his dare shirt and telling Adam Friedland, who's obviously joking, but Sisson doesn't want to be. Doesn't want to look like he's a part of anything. God forbid that could possibly be funny, because that would be bad. Here's actually another example that's probably worth playing.

[Emily]

You got a hug.

[Sagar]

Who?

[Emily]

Answer the fucking question.

[Sagar]

What was the question again?

[Emily]

Dude, what are you. This is. This is why Kamala lost. Because you won't answer a question straight up.

[Sagar]

You're right.

[Emily]

Do you think Baby Gronk is the new Riz King? He even got a hug from Livy. Just answer the question. I'm sorry, dude.

[Sagar]

I don't even know.

[Emily]

I don't know which one. Say refused. What do you want me to say to that? It's not that hard.

[Crystal]

What do you want me to say to that?

[Sagar]

Okay, I'm just stopping here because Adam is the new Stephen Colbert. That is abundantly clear. And it costs the network, like, probably a 100th of the money. No, probably. I don't even know that he has, like, a network. He may or may not. But, like, whatever it costs Adam Friedland to do this show, it probably could fund one private jet trip for Stephen Colbert. That's what we're talking about here. That is macro culture versus microculture, and that's Stephen Colbert trying to do a lesser, older, tamer, lamer version of what Friedland is doing now, trying to keep reliving the Colbert glory days for an audience who also thinks it's cool to relive the Colbert glory days, but he's trying to do it on a macro culture budget, which does not work anymore because Adam from Friedlin is just as capable of doing something that's relatively. That's, like, tailored to a niche, is edgy, and doesn't cost, like, what, half? No, it doesn't cost, like, half of 1% of what it costs for Colbert. And no, I absolutely cannot do math. I have no interest in doing math at any point. But this is such a perfect. I didn't even mean to play this clip for this. This clip was supposed to illustrate how just, like, completely cooked Dems are with Hunter Biden and Harry Sisson going out there. Now, at the same time, there was. You may have seen this. James Talarico went on Rogan, and Rogan seems to really like, Him Talarico is a Texas House Democrat who sort of went really viral for being a Christian, like anti Trump guy. And I have a lot of things to say about his answer on abortion, quote. So this idea that be a Christian means you have to be anti gay and anti abortion. There really is no historical, theological or biblical basis for that opinion. I don't think you actually need a historical, theological or biblical basis for that opinion. I would encourage everybody to read their Christopher Hitchens, that famous right wing televangelist Christopher Hitchens, who had, I think, one of the most challenging perspectives on abortion. I linked it on my feed, but it's an interview with Crisis magazine is probably one of the of the better expressions that Hitchens had of his argument on this. And then I would also encourage everybody to go ahead and read Dominion by Tom Holland. We were actually talking about this in the live chat tonight. One of the, if not the most important book of the 21st century where Holland talks about the Western impulse to protect the weak and the vulnerable being inextricably intertwined with Christianity. And you know, I think Talarico, the right is wrong to dismiss him as another Beto o', Rourke, as someone who's just a, you know, kind of run of the mill red state Dem who'll be a flash in the pan. He's clearly literate in scripture and Rogan was really impressed with him. And that I think takes a lot. So that's super easy for Rogan to be like, hey man, you should run for president or like, I'm going to be watching you. He's someone who wants to see that you actually are against the political establishment and you're kind of out of the mold of one party or the other. And people right now are looking for something. They feel totally untethered from a moral foundation. They're uncertain about what to believe. That problem is actually only going to get worse. So I would say that the right should take this guy pretty seriously because when people are we mentioned this earlier in the episode when people are starting to, for example, go go back to church in not insignificant numbers, when people are looking for purpose and meaning post Covid and they like the idea of the sacred or the enchanted, as is the debate that's raging on the Christian right right now. It's obvious. Sort of like we have a story. I think we could put this up. That piqued my interest about Etsy witches. I feel like I'm Trump right now doing a weave. Like we started with the Nelk boys and here we're talking about Etsy witches, which I think we'll, we'll get up on the screen in just a bit. But basically there's. Yeah, there's a. This is a Wall Street Journal article from last week. Headline Etsy which is charged for jobs sunshine and Nick's wins. Business is booming. But the part that we were focused on for our purposes, it's funny headline but Etsy witches are all the rage over on, on Etsy. And I think Etsy was like not. It sounded like they weren't super happy with this Wall Street Journal story. But the point is this stuff is real. Obviously the Enchantment debate on the right is a very interesting one. The Christian right is a very interesting one. It's about how we've sort of taken the mystery and the sacredness out of life. Roger's new book on this is worth reading and is very interesting. And we've over mechanized it. We've overanalyzed it to the point where everything feels like, like computation and everything feels sort of cold and we lose that sense of mystery and that sense of the sacred and the supernatural. And when you're sort of all of us, my opinion, all of us have an sort of innate recognition of the supernatural. We're sort of pulled to it for reasons that have to do with the fact that the supernatural exists. And because of that, it sends people into some really positive directions directions and to some really negative directions because that's a real thing. And when people are just lost for meaning and purpose and they feel untethered from moral foundation, it's tempting to hear a guy like Talarico who is, for example, pro choice, like many, many Americans are pro choice, but many Americans might be pro choice and they might be anti woke and they might be sick of Dems being, you know, Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries, God forbid. I know that he's, he's widely beloved, but some people. This is controversial, but some people might not be super impressed with him and maybe looking for somebody like a James Talarico to come in and give them something that feels competent and grounded. And I would expect to see this not just from Dems, increasingly from Dems, but also probably from other people in the church. So that was a little bit of a weave, but it's about to, it's about to turn a lot of a weave. This caught my eye too. Etsy witches, of course, but also Devil Worth Product two is in production. Anne Hathaway apparently is on Tik Tok and posted this video video that just if you're seeing this on your screen right now. She's in the cerulean sweater. She is in the cerulean sweater. The reason I want to talk about this and the reason that it actually, in a weird way, is part of the same theme that we're coming down on right now, it's. I read that book when I was young. Like, too young to be reading that book before the movie came out. And that book is about the Striver archetype. That book was a. About people finding purpose in careerism, which basically died on the day that the COVID emergency was declared and people were relegated to working from their home laptops or sort of listlessly putting in the bare minimum amount of work and looking for purpose and meaning. There's a really famous New Yorker cover from the time time that I'm. I'm going to pull up right now because it just. It's like if. If Anne Hathaway's Devil Wear Pro, Devil's Devil Wears Prada character were living through Covid, it might have actually looked something like this. So you'll remember this cover. Probably. You had this one woman. It's so sad. If you're listening to this, I'll describe it a bit if you don't remember it. But this, this woman, her apartment is an absolute mess. She's got a little cat, couple cats, and a carrier bag of Cheetos, you know, sodas and masks and rubber gloves. And she's dressed up on her torso, dressed down on her legs, drinking a martini, looking straight into a laptop for what appears empty pill bottles, Chinese takeout. Very much alone in a dirty apartment and doing a zoom happy hour for Covid Times. And I think that just put into such stark relief exactly what we were taught to strive for. Like, what is all of this about? I think that just put it all into stark relief during COVID And so that's why I'm really curious how Devil Wears production, two hits. Because this generation, especially Zoomers, I'm assuming the movie is mostly aimed at Xers, millennials like myself and people who kind of grew up with delore's part. Although that movie has lived on in meme legend and is like just sort of a part of meme lore at this point and woven into the pop cultural fabric. So it's probably directed kind of everyone, to be honest. It's a timeless movie. It's great. And the book is a good read. Read. But that book was about sacrificing the sort of typical. I don't know, what do you Even say, like the typical female. The track, right, the track to marriage and motherhood on the altar of your career. And no matter how tough that career was, you had to sort of be true to yourself. You had to do what was best for you. But that wouldn't always mean putting your personal life first. Sometimes it all falls apart because you prioritize your career. And there are ways that that all works out in the end. And you go into much more depth about Devil Wears Prada than we have time for right now. But it's true. Like that movie, she had a boyfriend in the book, too. She had a boyfriend who was just asking for a little bit more of her time, basically just a little bit more of her time. And she was like, I've got to work. And I think it's true that, oh, there's the old cerulean sweater and the old Stanley Tucci. If you're watching this, you're seeing it on your screen. We're playing these iconic moments. But it's just true that in some ways, Andy was the. Andy was the villain of Prada. I mean, of course, Meryl Streep was the villain of Devil Wears Prada, as Michael Scott found out by watching the movie in installments. I forget what episode of the Office that is. It's a. It's an early one, but in some sense, Andy is. Is kind of. And I don't know that the book of the movie actually was arguing against this, but. But she just was handling her personal life. She. She was deprioritizing her personal life in a way that was detrimental to her overall. Now, I think the movie makes the case that she was deprioritizing her personal life in a way that ultimately turned out to be fine. I just don't think, for most women, that's the case. And I think there was something about Devil Wears Prada that resonated, whether it was intended to speak to something deeper and wider, something that resonated at the time with women that sort of gave people permission. Just like Sex and the City sort of gave people permission to pursue promiscuity. Devil Wear's product sort of gave people permission to pursue careerism and to feel okay about, of course, standing up for yourself against tough bosses and all of that. That's really what I should have talked to Crystal and Sagar about, by the way, just making me stop getting their Starbucks. But other than that, they've never done that. But other than that, this idea that your meaning and your purpose can be found through work in a Sense. It's very American. It's a country. I've been on a binge of these old PBS shows, Frontier House, Colonial House, because of the new HBO show about sending people back to the frontier. I think it's literally called Back to the Frontier. This is very much part of the American ethos, is pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and working really hard. But in a social media age, I mean, actually, here, let's do the full weave and end it on Cold. Coldplay. Why the hell not? Because in the. The age of social media, this can all come crumbling down. It's not social media. In the age of the Panopticon, we always say social media, but it's not social media. It's. It's having social media on a smartphone and the smartphone having a camera. It's that combination of the two things. And I know because I lived through it, and I was like 14 in 2007 when the iPhone came out and can basically draw a bright red line from before and after. And I know many of you can too. And that's what this is really about. Having those devices that combine virality, combine constant surveillance with virality. These images do not go away. They are permanent, and then they're immediately published and broadcast. And so that's what we saw with the Coldplay CEO to go full weave on us. Because seriously, I get it. This guy is gross. He's been fired. Now I think we have an element to that extent to put up on the screen. Astronomer CEO who's at a Coldplay concert already. So many red flags. Yeah, you can see the viral. Viral TikTok. If you've missed this, you are one of those blessed people who knows the dangers of smartphones because you're not on one. If you were on a smartphone. You saw this right away. Most of us saw this right away. This was the kiss cam seen around the world. The couple like ducks for cover because they're obviously engaged in some light Coldplay adultery for whatever reason. And they're caught. And Chris Martin calls them out. Basically, clip goes mega viral. This guy loses his job. More importantly, perhaps not to the Devil Wears Prada consumer, but more importantly, the guy's probably losing his marriage. And all of this. It just. I remember thinking this about. What was it called? Like, total frat move and barstool when I was still in college. Because you always think, I'm sure everybody else has thought this too. Like, what if I was the person that tripped at a baseball game and fell down a bunch of stairs and Immediately had myself picked apart. One of the more humiliating moments of my life, funny as it is, is if you're in a crowd of people who are physically surrounding you and can laugh it off and shake some hands, like, oh, I'm okay, I'm okay. People who have no stake in your life, you never meet them, they haven't given more than 10 seconds thought to you, but they've published whatever that they spent 10 seconds thinking about onto the Internet. And that's going to be there forever. And that's not natural. We are not equipped with. One of the best books to read is Hunter Gatherer's guide to the 21st century. It's by Brett Weinstein and Heather Hying. That book is excellent. And it just makes you think about how as a species, we are not equipped for some of these technological capabilities that we have been absolutely thrust into rapidly. Like, for example, the ability to publish permanent thoughts, criticism, cheerleading of people we have never met, we will never know, who don't have any physical stake in our immediate community, which is important for myriad reasons. When you're talking about how you treat others. If you're invested in someone who falls down the stairs at your local, you know, double a baseball team game, you might have seen them again. Maybe they know your brother, maybe they go to your church. Maybe the people next to you know their brother. We think about these things differently, believe it or not, when we are in our own physical surroundings, and that does matter, maybe matters for how we treat other people. It is not natural to be able to pile on people around the world and potentially get them fired. Like, I'm not cracked. Held tears for this guy. I'm not crying for him. There have been many more examples. Like the entire era of cancel culture was one big lesson, heartbreaking, tragic lesson in this day after day how we treat each other differently. When you are naturally reduced to pixels on your phone because you'll never know these people, but you have control over the lives now. You have control over what they think about themselves, over what their community thinks about themselves, over what their employer, their family. You have control over that and you'll never meet them. And we just have not been trained to act accordingly. It's kind of like how these. We were talking about this earlier in the show. These macro culture institutions of the monoculture, they still think they're talking to. They still act like they're talking to a third of the country every single night, if it's late night or if it's the New York Times or whatever, but they're really talking to this very, very narrow slice because they haven't adjusted to the technology or the technological changes. And I think that's what's happening to us constantly day in and day out. And I guess that's how you get the prime minister of Israel talking about Burger King on the Nalk boys in the middle of the war. I guess that's a good place to leave it. I'll just leave it right there. Thank you all so much for tuning in. I keep going longer and longer because I get deeper and deeper into these rants, but appreciate you guys sticking around. Shout out to Crystal and Sagar, especially soccer, who was sick and Crystal was hosting the show this morning. So appreciate having them here. We've got more great guests lined up for the next few weeks. As a reminder, Emily May Care Media is an actual email address. I've been asking, I've been responding to a lot of your emails, answer some of your questions, all that good stuff. Emily, [e-mail] Doing my best to get back to all of you. Appreciate you tuning in and we will see you back here when, I Hope you know, Wednesday, 10pm Live. Let's do it. We'll see you then.