Emily (4:33)

It's a very, very strong reflection of our country.

Chris Cuomo (4:38)

And when they see a bad city.

Emily (4:41)

You know, my father always used to tell me, I had a wonderful father, very smart. And he used to say, son, when.

Chris Cuomo (4:49)

You walk into a restaurant and you.

Emily (4:51)

See a dirty front door, don't go in, because if the front door is dirty, the kitchen's dirty also. Same thing with the Capitol. If our Capitol's dirty, our whole country is dirty and they don't respect us.

Chris Cuomo (5:07)

Okay, that's very poignant. I thought that was the most poignant moment of the entire press conference. Now, there's debate about what crime is like here in Washington, D.C. whether it's up, whether it's down, whether it's better or whether it's worse than other major cities. And let me just say, I mean, Covid was a low point. If you traveled to D.C. during COVID during the pandemic, I mean, for a long time, like a lot of deep blue cities, the pandemic just stretched and stretched and storefronts were empty. Homelessness was visibly worse. People were clearly being haunted by the ravages of fentanyl seemingly around every corner in some of the higher foot traffic areas of the city and in other areas. I just took a buzz actually on my bike around Union Station about an hour ago because I knew we were going to talk about wanted to see Trump is now deploying the National Guard. He's done a federal takeover of the Metropolitan Police Department here. And reports are that they're already taking this very seriously and cracking down on things like marijuana and other infractions. DC Is a really complicated city. Some of it is national parkland. There's all kinds of different law enforcement agencies, as you can imagine, Secret Service and et cetera, the police department right now. What a lot of national observers don't realize is Mei's in a really complicated scandal as to whether or not its statistics are accurate. The police union says it's a false narrative that crime is going down. There's an active investigation right now into people who were allegedly cooking the books in the crime data. So it's way more complicated than a lot of the people in national media are saying because per usual, Trump comes out and his is Trump bluster. Right. He tends to hyperbolize and exaggerate. And that's led to a lot of journalists downplaying what it's like here in Washington, D.C. the gateway to the United States. For many, many tourists, it is the seat of our government. It is the center of global wealth and power. And when people step foot off a train in Union Station, they see filth and they see our inability to offer compassionate outreach to people who are suffering from addiction and cycles of crime and poverty. So it's just been frustrating to watch the national press corps deal with this. So let's bring on that note, Miranda Devine, who is the host of Pod Force One, and of course, a New York Post columnist. Miranda, this podcast, Pod Force One, you've interviewed literally everyone. I mean, you're going to be at the bottom of the list so far in terms of high profile guests. This is incredible. Thanks for joining us.

Miranda Devine (7:50)

Oh, hi, Emily. Really good to be with you. Yeah, it's been A bit of a ride. Fantastic. And I'm lucky that Donald Trump has done it and Susie Wiles and Scott Besant and just recently, Tulsi Gabbard. So they're so interesting and they have such a lot to, to talk about, you know, about current events and whatever secrets that I managed to prize out of them.

Chris Cuomo (8:16)

Yes. And we have some videos of Tulsi Gabbard we're going to play in a moment. Before we do, Miranda, I wanted to get your read on the briefing today. Really long briefing in the White House briefing room. And with Trump, there's something so interesting when it comes to his posture. He has the instincts, I think, of a populist. And he looks at things like crime and immigration, two really good examples and, you know, failed wars, adventurism in the Middle east, and knows that the average American is sick of it. And on the other hand, sometimes you can see where it's like, okay, are we, is he trying to be, for example, Bukele, or is he trying to be just a guy who's like, tough on crime? Giuliani, mayor figure who cracks down on some of this ridiculousness. So how do you think he sees himself? Like, is the left wrong to be like, oh, this is him. You're trying to be an American Bukele, or is he just sort of trying to be a Giuliani, Bloomberg type figure who brings crime down?

Miranda Devine (9:19)

Look, I mean, I think he just has a very coherent view, which is that it's America first and America's capital is Washington, D.C. which is a disgrace. I mean, I've been going there every week since I've started this podcast. And I mean, I used to live there back when I was at university. And it has gone downhill in every possible metric. It is now the number one murder capital of the world. You know, it's more dangerous than Mexico City and Baghdad. And you, you know, what does it take? You had a young intern murdered, caught, you know, shot dead in what should have been a safe area, going to McDonald's at 10 o' clock at night. A white, you know, remember there was an Uber driver.

Chris Cuomo (10:07)

Oh, this story's awful.

Miranda Devine (10:09)

Oh, dragged to his death. His little girls thought it was funny to carjack him. There was that husband who went to pick up his wife downtown after work. You know, I think it was 6 o' clock at night, he's sitting in the car, gets murdered. And then there was big balls the other day. The Doge, or former Doge worker, he gets beaten to within an inch of his life, gets a Severe concussion, protects his girlfriend and ends up just being, you know, with blood all over him. And, you know, these are assaults at the heart of the Capitol. And so I think it just offends Donald Trump that there are homeless encampments, that it's violent and dangerous. The people, the young people that work for him in the White House, they are walking home, they are laid at night because they work long hours, they're catching public transport. He wants them to be safe. He wants tourists to come to Washington, D.C. and be proud of what their taxes pay for. And it is a beautiful city. I mean, it's full of the most spectacular monuments and museums and these big broad plazas. And it's defiled by the disorder that always seems to accompany Democratic cities, plague Democratic cities. And so he has the power to go into D.C. it's not a state. And he's doing what he ought to do. And, you know, for all the complaints from Democrats and this stupid little chanting, singing and carry on, you know, they're the ones benefiting, really, unless they're like Chuck Schumer and they have round the clock Secret Service details and chauffeured limousines paid for by the taxpayer aoc, the same, most people, they're, they're staffers are at risk as well. So I think most Democrats and the other ridiculous thing the left is saying is that somehow this is racist. Basically, the biggest victims of the crime in D.C. are black people because they form the majority of the people who work there and so, and live there. And so it's not racist, it's anti racist, if anything. So I think it's completely coherent. And it's just the left has nothing to attack Trump on, except they call him a racist. They call him authoritarian. The authoritarian thing is just an offshoot from their lie about his being elected by Vladimir Putin. And so he models himself on Putin. It's just threadbare. They have nothing else. They have no positive policy agenda. And all Trump is doing, it's not ideological, it's plain common sense. It's what a businessman does when he comes in to take over a company and there are all sorts of problems in it. He just systematically sorts each one of them out. And he's now come to D.C. and I'm sure he'll sort that out like he sorted out the border.

Chris Cuomo (13:22)

So, you know, Donald Trump, the people around him, you've talked to them and, you know, I just, I was just telling the audience, I took a bike ride about around Union Station, Capitol Hill, before we went to air to Get a sense of what it looks like out there right now. There are early reports that there are heightened police presence, National Guard, other law enforcement patrolling the streets of. I didn't see anything too different yet, but I would imagine that's going to be one of the very first places they start. There was a bit more, it seemed like it was a bit more of a police presence. But that raises the question of how far do you think he will go on this, Miranda? Like knowing him, knowing the people around him. I thought your framing just then was super helpful. He sees this as a businessman and a pragmatist above all else. So what does that kind of look like for D.C. does he want the National Guard really roaming the streets and you're cracking down?

Miranda Devine (14:14)

Well, I mean, that's all a bit of a joke considering that Nancy Pelosi, after January 6th, having blocked the deployment of the National Guard to come and help with this enormous crowd of people, that poor old Stephen's son, the Capitol Police chief, had been begging her for days, and she and Muriel Bowser got together and decided that there would not be any National Guard. You know, I think it's because they genuinely, because they're so Trump deranged, thought that Trump was going to use the military to stay in the White House, not to leave on January 20th. Whether or not they believed that or just wanted to sow mayhem to get Trump afterwards, I don't know. But it was their fault. And she then, remember, she militarized D.C. there were, there were fences everywhere, there were National Guard that were camping out in underground garages eating maggot filled food because she didn't bother to make sure that they were adequately supplied. So that was what we had. So if anyone should be accused of authoritarianism, it's Nancy Pelosi. I doubt very much whether D.C. is going to look like that again, although all those lefties and Democrats that never uttered a peep about Nancy Pelosi's authoritarian impulses. Now I'm sure that, you know, there's the first sign of, you know, a couple of National Guards on the, on K Street. They'll be hyperventilating about Trump being a dictator. So I think what he'll probably do is it'll be sticks and carrots. Muriel Bowser will sort of be bullied and encouraged into whipping her own police force into shape. If she doesn't do that, then there might be, you know, the next step, ratchet up. I think whatever way it's done, D.C. residents will see cleaner streets, safer streets, and you know, they're also very lucky to have the new U.S. attorney for D.C. judge Jeanine Pirro. And she really is a tough nut. And the way she was speaking today, she's frustrated about not having the power to prosecute any of these people, particularly juveniles, who she says, you know, instead of getting into trouble for carjacking and creating mayhem and violently attacking people, they're getting yoga lessons. So she's pretty furious about that. And, you know, I mean, it's sad. These kids are probably not, you know, not, not got great home lives, but it doesn't help them to have them encouraged to become criminals on the street. So they should be diverted into some sort of situation where they can be tamed and maybe taught how to read and write and have a productive life and not destroy the lives of everyone else.

Chris Cuomo (17:10)

Yeah. And just because D.C. is at the focus of the national news cycle today, I'll add a couple of bits for this. The D.C. police chief, Pamela Smith, has said that they've seen an increase in youth crime. There have been what sort of are informally dubbed like teen takeovers of a very popular high end neighborhood, Navy Yard, Very, very popular with young people who work on Capitol Hill and in other places of the city where it's just basically lawlessness and anarchic and the cops have had a really hard time reeling it in. Also, truancy has not recovered before the pandemic. I mean, just shocking levels of truancy in D.C. public schools. So the city is, people in the city are willing to admit all of these different problems when it's not in the middle of a, of a culture war. And I think the press corps has, has, has far from covered itself in glory today. Miranda, let's roll this clip of Trump saying he doesn't want to make life too comfortable for journalists who are in the briefing room. This was earlier today, again at the press conference as to to you're building.

Emily (18:08)

The big beautiful ballroom. Could we build a big beautiful briefing room? I don't want to do that. I don't want you to be comfortable. So, so no, I don't want to make, I don't want to make life comfortable.

Chris Cuomo (18:29)

Okay. Miranda, what's your reaction to how the press has covered this story just over the last 772 hours? First the rumors were spinning that was going to happen and then it happened today. What did you make of how the press corps responded?

Miranda Devine (18:45)

It's just kind of typical. But that was quite an amusing banter and I think that the Washington press corps ought to be careful about what they wish for. Because where, where the press room is now, and I assume you know exactly where it is. The, the pool room, what used to be the, the covered over pool that JFK used to swim in, that is right outside the Rose Garden. It's a very convenient spot right in the center of the act of action. And now that Donald Trump's paved over the Rose Garden and he's talked about, I mean, I don't know if he's joking, but he's talked about turning it into kind of like a private, very private, exclusive club and having, you know, cigars smoked out there and, you know, inviting over senators and congressmen and favored people. Now, the press room has got an eagle eye view on that and it would be the most magnificent stories and gossip and especially if they're drinking and, you know, having some cognac and cigars go, I mean, imagine what might go on late at night. So you would want to stay in that press room, even though it is a little bit cramped. I also think they quite like the fact that it's cramped because it means that, you know, it keeps it rather elite for themselves. God forbid that it be twice the size. And then, you know, you'd have Breitbart and all these, these, you know, and podcasters coming in there on a regular basis. I think the New York Times and the Washington Post, I think they quite like it being exclusive the way it is right now, with just one rotating new media seat that always gets the opportunity to be called on first by Carolyn Levitt. But look, I mean, I think actually that the Washington press corps has been quite, quite sort of reasonable in this presidency. You know, they haven't got lunatics like Jim Acosta standing up and abusing the president. And Carolyn Levitt is, she really has command of that room and I think she has the respect of everybody in it and a little bit of fear. She's a remarkable press secretary.

Chris Cuomo (20:58)

So on that note, I have a weird, very specific question, Miranda, which is I have a colleague who once jokingly referred to Trump's aesthetic as the gold started going up increasingly in the Oval Office as, quote, late Saddam, what do you make of, what do you make of Trump's, his renovation? Some people were a little perturbed by the rendering of what this ballroom will look like, but it's clear that there's a lot more gold in the Oval Office. Is this Trump wanting to really put his physical stamp on 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, like, help us explain or help us understand a little bit about what he thinks when he does these things, yeah.

Miranda Devine (21:38)

100% it's him putting his personal stamp, but also he just has such a pride in the White House and it being the sort of jewel in the crown of American democr. And he wants it to be at its best and, you know, parts of it are, you know, a little shabby. And he, and look, I don't find what he's done with the Oval Office at all unattractive. And I think that the ballroom, I was in Scotland at his golf course there, where, you know, he just had the meetings with Ursula van der Leyden and Keir Starmer to make those trade deals in Europe. And, and he showed us the ballroom there and it is magnificent. It has eight massive chandeliers. It's quite elegant, it's high ceilinged, beautiful kind of cornices and inlays and just very tasteful, lovely. I mean, it's opulent, but not in a disgusting way. And I have been and stayed a night in one of Saddam's palaces during the Iraq war.

Chris Cuomo (22:46)

And let me tell.

Miranda Devine (22:47)

Yes, yes. Well, it was taken over by, by the US Government, obviously, and the US Military and in Baghdad and you know, it looks from the distance to be beautiful. The Australian army was in there too. And so I was sort of embedded with them for a little while and, and you know, but it's very tacky. Like, you go in there and it looks like marble columns, but it's a very thin sheet of marble that's sort of wrapped around and it only goes up to just above eye height because I guess they ran out of money. And it's sort of, it's not actual gold. I don't think it's sort of tacky guilt paint. Whereas Donald Trump prides himself on this is real gold. And he's, you know, he's picked out the eagle that was in, is in the center of the ceiling of the Oval Office, which was just sort of in relief in white, and he's picked that out in gold and it looks beautiful. So I, I mean, I haven't been there for a few weeks, so I know that he keeps on adding more golden highlights, but I think it's quite beautiful. So I don't think people should complain about it. And you know, when sneering sort of New York magazine writers or New York Times writers speak about Trump's aesthetic, they're kind of harking back to a 1980s Trump, which was the fashion then. It was like over the top, gaudy, glitzy, goldy things. And, and you know, Trump's taste has moved with the times.

Chris Cuomo (24:25)

So on the other end of this break, I'm going to get Miranda to talk more about herself, because casually dropping that Saddam anecdote is not where I thought this was going. Little did I know I was asking someone who actually has the best perspective on what late Saddam looks like that question. So stick around to hear Miranda answer some of my burning questions. But before we get to that, you guys know, over the years I have been clear about this. I'm not just pro life. I'm not just pro birth. I should say I'm pro life. Not just pro life. Also Pro Birth. Pro Birth, Pro Life, Pro birth. They go hand in hand. Or at least they should. And that is why preborn is so important. Being pro life means standing with mothers not only before their baby is born, but long after. That is exactly why I partner, proudly partner with preborn. Preborn doesn't just save babies, they make motherhood abundantly possible. They provide free ultrasounds and share it the truth of the gospel with women in crisis. And then they stay with real practical help, including financial support for up to two years after the baby is born. This is what true Christ centered compassion looks like. Not just for the baby, but for the mother too. And here's where you can make a difference. Just $28 provides a free life saving ultrasound. One chance for a mother to see her baby. And when she does, she is twice as likely to choose life. You can look that one up. The numbers are amazing. Preborn is trying to save 70,000 DOL babies this year. So don't just say you're pro life. Live it. Help save babies and support mothers today. Go to preborn.com emily or call 855-601-2229 that's preborn.com Emily Eddie Murphy and Pete.

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Chris Cuomo (26:58)

All right, we are back once again with the great Miranda Devine, host of Pod Force One and of course a New York Post columnist. Miranda, I have a really simple question for you. What is your secret? I mean your podcast so far, you have had Donald Trump, you have had Susie Wiles, you have had Tulsi Gabbard, you've had Eric Adams, I mean just an incredible guest list. But thinking about your ability to talk to and to pry information really out of this administration, what do you think is your secret? How do you, for example, get somebody who's so tight lipped like Susie Wiles to sit down and for 40 minutes go back and forth with you, Tell us maybe the backstory behind that interview because I bet it's a good example of how you do this.

Miranda Devine (27:43)

Yeah, look, I think just the New York Post brand is the secret because that's Donald Trump's hometown paper and he does have a soft spot for it. You know, I mean it hasn't always been the easiest relationship, I think between the Post and Donald Trump, but it's been a long term one. And he is, you know, he does think of it with some fondness and so that's part of it. And I think maybe the Laptop from Hell connection, you know, that, that meant that I was known to a lot of these, the people who are in the administration and to President. He very kindly endorsed the book, the first book. And so I, and also, I mean Laptop from Hell is his title, he coins that, that fantastic title. So, so he had a part of that. So there's that. And then with Susie, while she was very difficult, you know, she does, she really very rarely gives interviews. But I think I'd done an interview with Monica Crowley who's a friend, friend and was very, I mean she's just so charming and lovely and it's so very easy to chat to her like a friend. And I feel like I'd had requests in to Susie Wiles over and over. But I, I felt there was a softening after the Monica Crowley interview maybe because maybe Susie Wiles saw that, you know, I wasn't going to try to do gotcha questions or extract unfairly information from her that she didn't want to give. You know, I don't think, you know, it's just, it's a very different, and I'm learning because I've not done this before. It's a very different kind of genre of, I don't know, journalism, offshoot of journalism. I'm used to interviewing people. I've been doing that, you know, for decades. But usually it's with a desire to get us, you know, an angle on a story, get quotes for a story, get information for a story. You know, sometimes it'll be off the record record or whatever. And, you know, occasionally you do a profile, which is a little softer, I guess, but. But this is different because in a podcast, you're not looking for a headline. You're not. You're not looking for a gotcha. You really looking to establish a rapport with the person and get to know them. And, you know, if they. If they have things that they really don't want to tell you, they're not going to tell you and you're not going to make them feel uncomfortable about it. It's not adversarial burial. So it's quite pleasant for me. I quite enjoy it now, you know, and I think people let their guard down and increasingly I hope that's the case because they know that there's no ulterior motive other than get to know you. You know, these are very important people. It's a slice of history and it's an ability to sort of see behind, you know, the people who are making these decisions. The most powerful people on the planet, planet. And they're real human beings. And, you know, every one of them that I've interviewed and that I've met are just good people. And so I think that they don't mind that being showcased, that they're nice people, they're formidable, they all have something to teach us about success and hard work. And I think that's one of the most interesting answers that I get from them is just when I wrap up and ask them about, you know, not necessarily. I don't want to embarrass some of them, don't really want to talk about themselves and say, what's the secret of your success? But, you know, they all meet powerful people. What's the secret of those people's success? And often they talk about themselves. And a lot of the time it's, you know, it really is. It's just, it's hard work and it's focus. And Scott Bessant said something interesting, which was he was talking really about his life as a very successful investor and just saying, if you're not living and breathing and if you're not dreaming about it when you go to bed and wake up in the morning thinking about it, you're really not going to be a huge success. So I think it's passion as well. And then the other interesting thing that I've learned, and it's a sort of, it's not all of them, but many of the men that I've interviewed, at least four of them, have had a shocking thing happen to their fathers when they were about you know, between 9, 10, 11 years old. You know, Doug Burgum's case, his father was killed. In, you know, other people's cases, their father has gone bankrupt. That was Scott Besant's situation. You know, he was very well off from this family that had been, you know, many generations very wealthy and suddenly they were broke and he had to watch, you know, furniture that had been in the family for generations carried out by the repo men because his father sort of made some bad decisions when he was at that age. And, and so it's just, it's, it's fascinating to see what forms these people and gives them that, that drive.

Chris Cuomo (32:55)

Well, let's play a little bit of your interview with Donald Trump and then with Tulsi Gabbard because you got some really interesting answers out of them on, on UAP. So unidentified aerial phenomena, UFOs. UAPs.

Miranda Devine (33:09)

UFOs.

Chris Cuomo (33:10)

Yep, all of it. So let's roll S3 here. This is Miranda with Donald Trump.

Miranda Devine (33:14)

I wanted to ask you about drones. You know, we had the issue in New Jersey before the election where there are all these people thought UFOs or an attack of the killer drones. And I believe you're doing something about.

Chris Cuomo (33:28)

Yeah.

Miranda Devine (33:29)

What are you doing?

Emily (33:30)

I, I, well, I know who, I can't tell you what, who it was and what it was, but I can't really tell you. I'd love to tell, but it's not a, it's not a big deal.

Miranda Devine (33:38)

It's not, not, not something frightening.

Chris Cuomo (33:40)

No, but I just, you know, so obviously it's some, something that I know.

Emily (33:44)

About and it's not a problem at all.

Miranda Devine (33:47)

It was legal.

Emily (33:48)

Oh, yeah.

Chris Cuomo (33:48)

That was legal, huh? Okay, Miranda, before we get to Tulsi, I actually just want to get your reaction to that question. Do you believe in there?

Miranda Devine (33:57)

Yeah, I don't think he's lying, but he's obviously not telling us what he knows and I probably should have pushed that a bit further. It was towards the end of the inter. So I knew he was getting a bit impatient. But yeah, I mean, he wasn't going to tell me whatever it was. But as you know, I kept on trying with other cabinet members.

Chris Cuomo (34:19)

Right. So let's go ahead here and roll. Director of National Intelligence Tulsi Gabbard, who had an answer to your question that made a lot of headlines after you sat down on August 6th or the episode aired August 6th. So this is S4.

Miranda Devine (34:31)

We've had some declassification of some very strange videos that look like they are, you know, unidentified Flying ob. There anything in the files that you think you could find or you have found? Nothing that I'm prepared to talk about today. So do you believe that there could be aliens?

Chris Cuomo (34:52)

I, I, I, I honestly like my personal belief.

Miranda Devine (34:55)

I have my own views and opinions.

Chris Cuomo (34:57)

Right.

Miranda Devine (34:57)

In this role I got to be careful with, Right.

Chris Cuomo (35:00)

With, with, with what I share.

Miranda Devine (35:02)

And the New Jersey, the strange objects over New Jersey. New Jersey were drones.

Chris Cuomo (35:07)

I still have a lot of questions around that.

Miranda Devine (35:09)

Yeah, you know, I've, I've heard, I've.

Chris Cuomo (35:12)

Heard what the, the public official line is. I, I just personally still have a.

Miranda Devine (35:16)

Lot of questions that are unanswered. Yeah. Because it wasn't just New Jersey, it was happening in different parts of the country.

Chris Cuomo (35:22)

Oh, really? Yeah.

Miranda Devine (35:23)

Oh.

Chris Cuomo (35:26)

So Miranda, help us decode that answer because Tulsi Gabbard comes into office as Director of National Intelligence, presumably you may know more about this, has access to a lot of intelligence. Now how much access she has to it when she asks to see certain information is a different question. We know that from actually some of the reporting about the Russiagate files that have since come out. So we don't really know what she's seen or what she hasn't seen. But there she's saying in her personal capacities she believes there's a little bit more going on. Did you get the sense that that was informed by what she's seen over the last six months as dni?

Miranda Devine (36:05)

Yes, I did, I definitely did. There's something they know that we don't know and I don't think that, I mean, she's just said that that official story we were told that these were just, you know, amateur drones or whatever it was over New Jersey. I mean that beggars belief. It beggared belief at the time and she's just confirmed that it didn't make sense. Now Donald Trump said it was nothing worry about and it was legal. So I don't know what that leaves us with. You know, I mean, and she sort of said, she, she implied that she believes in aliens. I don't know. You know, I mean, maybe they're pleasant aliens.

Chris Cuomo (36:51)

Maybe they are I, law abiding aliens.

Miranda Devine (36:53)

Law abiding aliens. Exactly. So I don't know, but there is definitely something there. The truth is out there.

Chris Cuomo (37:02)

The truth is out there. Well, Miranda, speaking of which, you have an encyclopedic knowledge of the laptop from hell and the entire Hunter bio, Right. And he's been out talking more about it now and saying things that are genuinely interesting and also just obviously false. But I wanted to ask a question that I've been curious about, which is, did anything weird happen to you during the course of your report, reporting on the Hunter Biden stuff? Sometimes reporters have little anecdotes, and good reporters rarely talk about themselves. That's one of the many reasons we know you're a good reporter, Miranda. But did any. Did you ever get the sense that you were being watched? Did anything ever feel like it had obviously gotten hacked? Any of that happen to you during that reporting?

Miranda Devine (37:45)

Look, yes, and maybe because I, you know, I was a bit paranoid, and so maybe I was seeing things that, you know, I can't definitively say. But I do know that when I would talk to certain people, I wouldn't, you know, I talk to them on, on encrypted apps. But this one particular person, the, the phone would always drop out or something would happen. It was strange. And he actually said to me, oh, they're probably listening to us, you know, and, and then other, other, like law enforcement style people, you know, I'd meet them at like, a location where we wouldn't be seen. But they were very paranoid about being seen with me and about talking to me because they told me for sure that I was being surveilled. I don't know if that's true or not. And then I know a couple of times I would go and meet Devon Archer, who I can now talk about. He was Hunter Biden's former business partner, has been pardoned by Donald Trump, but he was for a long time a sort of undercover source, and. Which he's quite happy for me to say now. And, and we would meet regularly at various places, but one particular place we would meet that was sort of like at the very back of this sort of cafe place. It was dark and no one could see you. And. And I just felt a couple of times when I would be walking there that, that there were people following me. So I don't know if that's right or not. I, I just could be paranoid. Ultimately, you know, I was warned, you know, to be, watch out for certain things. They never came to pass. So. And I think now that, you know, the Biden People are no longer in office. I can breathe a bit of a sigh of relief. But honestly, nothing bad happened, thank goodness.

Chris Cuomo (39:40)

We learned so much from all of that reporting. And before I let you go, Miranda, I have one question. It's a big question to end on, admittedly, but you sort of understand Trump world. You understand the New York City that he comes from, that his social circle comes from. So what is your sense of the truth about the Epstein Trump relationship? I know, again, that's a really big question. But just as an observer of him, his social circle, what do you think actually that relationship was like? Is it as simple as what we see on the surface?

Miranda Devine (40:13)

Look, I haven't seen anything that would say otherwise. And honestly, Trump is not a very good liar. And his sort of annoyance with this story, that's, you know, sort of bringing him back into another big conspiracy. And that's why he talks about it as a hoax, that he's, he's being dragged into the center of it. I think it is, as he has said and as other people have told me, including, you know, lawyers for the, some of the victims involved. I went to, to the courthouse in Lower Manhattan after Jeffrey Epstein died, however he did in jail, and he was supposed to turn up for a trial. And so his victims felt cheated of the opportunity to confront him. And so the judge very kindly allowed them to come to court to that same courtroom. And one after one, I watched as they, they or their lawyers stood up and sort of gave the evidence that they would have given about Jeffrey Epstein. And, you know, I mean, it's all, it was all about Jeffrey Epstein. And so, and they did talk, a couple of them talk like that poor girl who went to Australia whose name, Virginia Gif. Virginia G. Yeah. She talked about, you know, rich and powerful people that preyed on her. And we know Prince Andrew has been alleged to be one of those and did settle with her for a princely sum. So that is a tragedy. But I don't see any evidence that drags Donald Trump into it other than, like, so many rich and powerful and influential people in New York and in fact, around the country at that time, when Jeffrey Epstein was riding high, he knew him. And, you know, Jeffrey Epstein would have dinner parties, he would go to parties. He was a man about town. He seemed to have a relationship with Ghislaine Maxwell that was, you know, like a regular boyfriend, girlfriend, partner sort of thing. And, I mean, Donald Trump has said, oh, Jeffrey liked the girls and he liked them young. And he denies emphatically that he wrote that letter that the Wall Street Journal claimed he wrote. And that's a subject of a lawsuit suit now, you know, I guess that, that the truth of that will come out in the wash. But I, I just think he was ahead of everyone else in rejecting Epstein because he threw him out of Mar A Lago. You know, on the one hand, we're told because he was a creep and was coming onto the daughter of a member who was a friend of Donald Trump's, the young underage daughter, and being disgusting. And also, Donald Trump apparently had some sort of, of a contest with him for a block of land in Palm beach and was annoyed that the price got pushed up because Jeffrey Epstein wouldn't give up and go away. And so for whatever reason it was, he threw him out of Mar A Lago and had no more contact with him. And that was before he was charged with, you know, the sex trafficking. He ended up a sweetheart deal, but it was over his sexually abusing these underage girls. And, and, you know, the fact was there were many people, including Prince Andrew, who, and Bill Gates, who maintained a relationship with Epstein after he had, was. Was a convicted child molester and on a, you know, on a list as such. So I, you know, I just think Donald Trump's kind of blameless in all of this. Other, other than like a lot of other famous people in New York around that time he knew him. It's a pretty small world in New York in those circles.

Chris Cuomo (44:22)

Yeah, New York billionaires, it's. Yeah, it's a small circle. Well, Miranda, I could talk to you for five hours and still have plenty of questions. So this is amazing. Pod Force One, what a start to that podcast. Everybody go listen to. You already are, but go listen to it if you're not. And read every Miranda Devine. Com at the New York Post if you want to know what's going on on in Trump world. Miranda, thank you so much for being here.

Miranda Devine (44:43)

Thank you, Emily. You're a darling. Very nice to talk to you, of course.

Chris Cuomo (44:48)

Now, let me tell you about masa chips, because I literally just bought some more of them two hours ago. I'm not making that up. The first ones they sent me for free. And I'm seeing my parents this weekend. Once again, shout out, mom and Dad, I did buy you these masa chips because you need to know how good they are. Did you know all chips and fries used to be cooked in tallow up until the 1990s when big corporations switched switched to cheap processed seed oils. Today, seed oils make up 20% of the average American's daily calories. Recent studies have linked seed oils to metabolic health issues and inflammations. But Masa did something about it. They created a delicious tortilla chip with just these with just three ingredients and no seed oils. Organic corn, sea salt and 100% grass fed beef tallow. Seriously, that's all that is to it. And they are delicious. These chips avoid all the bad stuff and they taste incredible. I really mean that. Masa is crunchier, tastier and doesn't break in your guac. Snacking on Masa chips is nothing like eating regular chips. With Masa you feel satisfied and light with no crash or bloat afterwards. The beef tallow makes the chips satiating. Just want to underline that point. So true. So you won't find yourself uncontrollably binging and then still feeling still feeling hungry afterwards. Masa chips is beloved by tens of thousands of customers, has been endorsed by industry leading health and nutrition experts. Also, Masa chips are so good. Take it from me, I love chips. These are good chips. Ready to give Masa a try? Go to masachips.com and use code AFTERPARTY for 25 off your first order. That's mazachips.com AFTERPARTY and code AFTERPARTY for 25 OFF your first or it's that time of year again.

Miranda Devine (46:26)

Back to school season.

Chris Cuomo (46:27)

And Instacart knows that the only thing harder than getting back into the swing of things is getting all the back to school supplies, snacks and essentials you need. So here's your reminder to make your life a little easier though this season. Shop favorites from Staples, Best Buy and Costco, all delivered through Instacart so that you can get some time back and.

Miranda Devine (46:47)

Do whatever it is that you need.

Chris Cuomo (46:49)

To get your life back on track.

Miranda Devine (46:51)

Instacart, we're here.

Chris Cuomo (46:53)

Let's get into these charts from the Financial Times that were released just in the last week and I think are fairly shocking. So this is F5 young adults personalities are changed, changing with conscientiousness. Conscientiousness in a free fall. Look at that. So these are different traits. And the Financial Times here is citing research, the Understanding America study and this is Financial Times analysis of it. That's the relative change in strength of different personality traits by age group. So if you look at what's happened with the youngest Americans, so 16 to 39, not just teenagers, but from 2014 to 2024, so over about a decade you see plunging on conscientiousness, you see A skyrocketing in neuroticism. You see a decline in agreeableness and a decline in extroversion. If we go to F6, the question the Financial Times asks is the digital world out competing real world commitment? Well, among again people under 40 between 16 and 39, you see a plunging on the marker of people making plans and following through. You see plunging on persevering until finished and is skyrocketing and people being easily distracted and whether people can be careless. Again, you see younger Americans outpacing older demographics with a rise in whether or not they're careless. Now, extroversion and Trust, this is F7 are also in decline among younger Americans. Actually, everyone and I just want to emphasize how important it is that we're basically seeing all of these trends across the board rise or fall across the board in the wrong direction. So if you're out it is outgoing. That's a decline across age groups. But especially among the 16 to 39 demographic is helpful to others. Dakota declining among the 16 to 39 is trusting declining among 16 to 39 declined overall as well. And starts arguments that's up a little bit more modestly, but up among younger people and declining in general as Or I'm sorry, actually this one you see a little bit of a difference with older people it actually is declining overall but with the middle aged and the younger people on the rise. So these statistics are. We're beyond the point of a canary in a coal mine. And I think what's really, really important that these emphasize and of course it's just another article that you'll read and throw away, right? Because such is the nature of digital media. It's not like a print. It feels so much more ephemeral. It goes into your mind and then out. Maybe you absorb it briefly, but you scroll sort of. It scrolls into your memory just like it scratches scrolls across your eyesight. And these charts came out. I think it was the same day that I was watching this video that made me incredibly sad. This is a young man who is pretty much exactly on point about the problems his generation faces. Now, I have not validated his claims. What I'm using this clip for, and we're about to roll it in just one moment is as a reference representative sampling of how of a genre that's taken off on TikTok, definitely on Instagram, you see them reposted on Twitter. But it's a very particular genre among younger Americans. This is not the only video. There are many of these every single day, which is Sad, but let's roll. S12.

Emily (50:34)

They tell us to stop eating out and rinse $2,000 a month. Oh, save for retirement. And yet you can barely save. Save for next week.

Chris Cuomo (50:43)

Go buy a house.

Emily (50:44)

Every house is half a million dollars, brother. I'm not asking for a handout, man. We're asking for a freaking fair shot at life. Our parents did not work harder than we work right now. They were simply just given a better chance. Their wages covered their lives, their bills, their hobbies, their passions. Our wages bare barely cover our freaking bills for the month, dude. No amount of budgeting can ever fix a system designed to keep us down. We're doing the best that we can. And yet it feels like the outcome has already been decided.

Chris Cuomo (51:25)

So a couple of the hashtags on that video were like, hashtag viral. Follow me. And he's not wrong. I mean, I'm completely sympathetic to the economic and cultural argument that he makes in the video. What I think is worth pausing and considering when we view that video through the lens of these numbers. Younger people declining or rising in neuroticism, declining in agreeableness, declining in extroversion. That young man is talking to the Internet. And that's frightening because we on this show cover a lot the Marshall McLuhan quote about how the medium is the message, right? And how that's often used in a much flatter, simpler way than people realize. What it means is that these new vehicles of communication and McLuhan did not live to see TikTok, thank God for him. But the mediums themselves change what's being said. They're not just different vehicles. It's not like, oh, the message is getting out to the people faster. That's not it. I mean, that may be true and it definitely is in the case of Twitter or X whatever were calling it. It's definitely true. But the medium is fundamentally changing the way that we talk about these things. So if you are a young person who feels like you don't have a lot of male friends, male loneliness is on the rise. Great example. There are stats on how now male college grads have just about the same unemployment level as male men without four year degrees. There's a new story on that recently, actually. So you feel like the playing field is not fair. It's not. I hear it. And it should be changed. Absolutely. No question about it. We need policy changes, we need cultural changes. What we probably don't need is more young men complaining about their personal financial circumstances on the Internet. Now. I don't know him And I don't know how his story, all of that is true, but what I do think about a lot is how big tech isolates us so much that people then feel like their only option is to give big tech more engagement because these algorithms prize strong emotions. And the more isolated you are, the more alienated you are, the more lonely you are in a lot of cases because of these technologies, which I think it's pretty hard to disagree with the correlation. I mean, we'll get more and more science on this. We're playing out this experiment in real time. But looking at spiking levels of neuroticism among people who are younger, people who are more exposed to these technologies over the last decade. Declines in agreeableness, declines in extroversion, declines in making plans of following through. And perseverance rises in distraction, easily distractedness, carelessness. I mean, that's what this is doing to us. And the more more that we use these mediums as mediators for our politics and personal lives, the more power that we're actually giving to TikTok and Big Tech. I mean, the hashtag on that video gutted me when I saw that it apparently was uploaded with the hashtag viral and hashtag follow me. That's incredibly depressing. That's incredibly depressing. I don't know if this young man is like many other young men and feels like he doesn't have someone to talk to. We've discussed on the show a couple of times, recent New York Times op eds talking about how women feel like they're now shouldering more of an emotional burden of having to listen to their boyfriends and husbands, which is obviously just part of being in a relationship or a marriage. Think of what that's doing to men on top of the difficult circumstances that they already find themselves in socioeconomically. So I'm not obsessive over bootstraps philosophy, like pulling yourself up by your bootstraps. I think there do need to be. I think that's absolutely virtuous. I don't think it's virtuous as a public policy. I think that we should shape our economy and our culture consciously to enable prosperity and to give people the best shot that they possibly can, thriving in this country and making this country strong. I don't think complaining about things being unfair on social media is a particularly constructive way if it's the only way that we go about it. I'm one of the few people who gets paid to do it, which is slightly different. I think journalists are mentally unwell for A reason, and that's because you do actually, if you're an opinion journalist, opine and complaints, complain in public often. So I would say take a lesson from the misery of your average journalist and don't treat your life the same way by publishing opinions that you're not getting paid for. Unless you feel like you're getting paid for the false affirmation that comes through likes, retweets, clicks. And just remember that the algorithm is set up to make you play the game where the stronger your emotion or the more your emotion is poured into a mold. Right? The algorithm is the mold. Right. It's like you're making a soap, or I guess jello, let's stick with soap. Less disgusting. It's like you're making a soap. Right? And the algorithm is the mold. You're just pouring the emotion into it because you've been told what is going to be hashtag viral, to use the example of that video again. So all the empathy in the world for this young man, I'm not blaming him for anything in particular, but I do worry that these algorithms seem to increasingly be rewarding for good reason, because it resonates with people and it creates engagement. But rewarding something that's very unhealthy, which is, I think, the most empowering thing that people can do is to stop trying to change the world by starting globally and trying to take the shortcut to changing the world. Because these technologies also trick us into thinking it's very easy to have global power. It's easy to reach people on a global basis. To actually have power and to make change is different. And one of the most empowering things, I think there's social science that backs it up too, is for. Is just to start in your own community. Start with your family, start with your friends, start with your church. You know, you don't have to go volunteer at the Boys and Girls Club, although that's probably a lovely thing to do. Start by caring more about your family than yourself to the extent that you can. Start by just getting out of your own head and trying to make the tiny little world around you a better place. And that's more empowering. I mean, not only do I think it's. It's probably more constructive in many cases, but it's also more empowering. Empowering. And that's the building block to keep going further and further out. So, yeah, I don't like when I say those things because I think that there's also social science on this, by the way, there's Studies that back this up, that the more that we see ourselves as victims, and I think these algorithms incentivize seeing ourselves as victims, the more powerless we feel and the more miserable we are. And so if you feel like the incentive on the algorithm is ever pushing you to into victim mentality, it can be true that you are a victim of an unfair system, and also true that it's deeply unhealthy to focus on your victimhood rather than empowering yourself. You don't have to deny your victimhood. You don't have to deny that the system is unfair. In fact, it's important to acknowledge that the system is unfair, but it's probably not making you happier to dwell on it. So lead with that in your communications. If you must make TikTok videos about all of this, I would just say it's better for your health to lead with that, it's better for the world to lead with that, and it's better for your community, it's better for your family and your friends, if you can start reframing it, to think about empowering yourself and not sort of dwelling in that realm of victimhood that is just giving Big Tech more engagement and more clicks and more reason to alienate and isolate us. And, boy, do I have a fun example of brain rot. The brain rot of social media. So excited about this one, guys. We gotta roll, we gotta roll. First of all, let's put on the screen F4. This is Chris Cuomo, newsman, America's sweetheart, many have said he is over at News Nation fell for an incredible deep fake that looked nothing. We're gonna play it in just a second. But the idea that this was actually Alexandria Ocasio, correct, Cortez. As much as you may think Alexandria Ocasio Cortez is clownish or silly, this deepfake was incredible. And Chris Cuomo responded to it by criticizing AOC for not mentioning a condemnation of Hamas in this fake video. AOC responded, this is a deep fake, dude. Please use your critical thinking skills. And momentarily, briefly, fleetingly, the entire entire country was cheering on Alexandria Ocasio Cortez and her skirmish with one Christopher Cuomo. So to get a flavor of how profoundly stupid this was, let's go ahead and roll the clip that Chris Cuomo thought he was reacting to. S9. Sydney Sweeney looks like an Aryan goddess, and the American Eagle jeans campaign is blatant Nazi propaganda. I mean, fuck watching that sultry little temptress. This is unhealthy. Into a Canadian Texan three sizes too small with her bouncy little fun bags on the screen staring at you, piercing through the core of your soul with those ocean blue eyes that could resurrect the furor from his grave in Argentina. That was my favorite part. Instead of simping for the Sydneys, we should be celebrating the Shaniquas instead of worshiping the hot straight blonde. What about the obese Alphabet people with blue hair? They need love, too. And to all the haters who say companies that go woke go broke. I'd rather be poor than a Nazi. I don't even know what to say. If you were watching it, you could visually see that Alexandria Ocasio Cortez was. Looked cartoonish, exactly like a deep fake. Cuomo responded, I was wrong, but it did sound like something you would say. I'm paraphrasing him, but that's basically verbatim how he responded. And I'd like to know which part of that he thought was something that Alexandria Ocasio Cortez would say. Was it resurrecting the furor from his Argentinian grave? Was it the part about Shaniqua, the fun bags? Was it that part that sounded like something Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, because feminist, would say on the floor of the House of Representatives? What must have happened to, again, this man's brain to get from point A to point B? We can barely begin to comprehend. This is a man that CNN was putting millions of dollars behind not long ago, during Trump won, this was one of CNN's stars. He was a bona fide media heavyweight, and he fell for something most people's grandmothers would know was fake. Not only did he fall for it, he posted, he proudly, confidently published a response implying that he fell for it, showing everyone that he fell for it. That's how badly he fell for it. And I don't think we should lose sight of that. It wasn't as though you were at a coffee bar with Chris Cuomo scrolling and. And he saw that and he was like, oh, sounds like something she would say. Wow. No, no, no. This man saw the video and then he posted about the video because he was so convinced that it was real, he needed to respond. This is your brain on social media. I don't know. Maybe it was always this way. Maybe Chris Cuomo is. Is a bad example. Maybe it's. This is a. The sample is off. I'm no social scientist, but I'm open to that idea. This is not a fair experiment because our sample is tainted, in this case by Chris Cuomo being Chris Cuomo always being Chris Cuomo. But again, I don't think most people's grandmothers would be fooled by that deepfake. Some would. Most people's would not. I mean, just incredible stuff. It's breaking all of our brains. Even I don't think Chris Cuomo has always been. People are probably going to correct me. Maybe people who have known Chris Cuomo for years are going to say, yeah, he would have fallen for that in 1994. I don't know, though. This is breaking our brains. But it's an interesting example of how the Sweeney discourse in particular reflected some of our brokenness. The New York Times had a wash, wild look. I'm gonna put this on the screen. And a wild look where it tried to kind of do an autopsy of how this story became viral. If you read the New York Times story, this is Tom Bevin, our friend. He says New York Times goes with the blatantly false podbro narrative, referring to Pod Save America, that the Sydney Sweeney controversy was all a concoction of the right. And he talked about it with Megan on her show last week. And if you read the new New York Times story, it's wild. I posted about this, too. It uses a study that shows the discourse was totally streisanded on Twitter on X, meaning that the criticism to the response made that response go viral in itself. So the right's criticism of the left's criticism of the ad, we're getting real meta here. But the rights criticism of the lefts taking offense at that ad is what made the people who took offense at that ad go viral on X. Well, guess what? X is not TikTok. And guess what else? TikTok is much more popular. So if you scroll down in the New York Times story, you realize they say there were a few very viral posts on TikTok from liberals who took offense at what was going on with Sydney Sweeney in the ad. This is in the New York Times story that is framed as a rebuttal to the conservative narrative that legitimately, people on the left were offended by the Sydney Sweeney ad. Do I think some of it was overstated? Absolutely. But were viral posts actually making their way around social media suggesting people on the left were legitimately angry? The types of people who post on TikTok, not again, not a representative sample size of the public, but of the capital O, capital L online left. That was absolutely happening. And the New York Times rebuts it in their own story on sweeneygate. And it's just incredible that no editor took the time to Be like, whoa, this is what editors are for, by the way. You get over your skis, you think you've really nailed it, and you have all the evidence and your ducks in a row. And the editor's like, this doesn't say what you're saying that it says. And we're talking about the New York Times, Times that's now trying to fundamentally change itself and transform back into the paper of record that will fairly cover power, hold power to account, and the like. I mean, in their own story, they're rebutting the part of their headline, how the right shaped the debate over the Sydney Sweeney ads. The debate was shaped out of the gate. I mean, this is semantics. Technically, you can say the. The story is about how the right shaped the Sydney Sweeney debate. The implication of the entire story is that it was all Streisanded, right? This was mostly the right being upset about a tiny, tiny amount. Like, the right created the controversy over the Sydney Sweeney ad and is overstating the degree to which people were really offended by this. I think it's true that because the right latched onto this, realizing it was good. I mean, J.D. vance was talking about it, realizing that it was sort of a political winner for the right to look like they were standing up for a popular young celebrity like Sydney Sweeney. Because of that, there was more attention that probably needed to be given to the Sydney Sweeney story, but they were responding to actually real outrage and offense on the left. And this brings me to a series of viral clips. So we have one here that's gone really viral on the left from Marc Maron, comedian Marc Maron, super popular podcast, very successful. And also this conversation between Bill Maher and Drew Barrymore, because why wouldn't Bill Maher be talking to Drew Barrymore on a podcast called Club Random? It's all in the name. Let's start with Marc Maron, though. Let's roll. S7. This was him on Howie Mandel's podcast. It was published on August 5, and he had some thoughts on it. Sounds like what he's talking about is the podcast bros, like the Joe Rogans and the Andrew Schultz's. You can kind of decide for yourself. Fill in the blank here, but this is Marc Maron, you know, to be.

Emily (69:08)

In a fucking club where, you know, I walking down the hall at the comedy club at the Comedy Store, and, you know, in one room, someone's doing their bit about trans people. And then I get down the hall and there's someone on stage going, well, I guess I got to do My bit about trans people, like, no, you don't, you don't. It's, it's heck now. I mean, you know, you guys got the freedom you wanted. You can now say what, whatever you want. They're defeated. The rights have been denied. The policies that you guys encouraged, which you're stupid material, are now policy. And now like, you know, half the people under the umbrella of Anti woke, we've lost a tremendous amount of Democratic leaning ideas and movements. So whether they knew it or not, that's what they were spearheading. So now it's reality. And you want to still keep kicking them. I don't know that comedians have had that much power. Are you fucking out of your mind?

Miranda Devine (70:00)

No, I'm.

Emily (70:01)

Yeah, Joe Ray, I'm not going to. Go ahead, go ahead. You know, you can't, you can't separate. Like if the movement is like, you know, we're being censored. No, you're not, you're not.

Chris Cuomo (70:13)

Okay, so it's the fault of the, the podcasters, of course, that the policies of the Trump administration on transports in particular are from my perspective, of course, good for women. You know, I actually agree with Marc Maron on the power of, of comedians and podcasters. Let's roll. Just to sort of get a kind of, I think, contradictory. Maybe you'll disagree with me and say these aren't mutually exclusive, but let's get this reaction from the club. Random episode that was posted today of this is like a Stefan sketch. It has everything. Drew Barrymore, Bill Maher, people who think they're a different sex essay. Let's roll it. You have a lot of bravado about what you think is the truth of or not. But it's just so refreshing.

Miranda Devine (71:00)

Like you were doing this before. It was so dangerous.

Emily (71:08)

Still dangerous.

Miranda Devine (71:09)

And it is just way too dangerous now.

Chris Cuomo (71:13)

But you're still doing it.

Emily (71:14)

It's slightly less dangerous than it was two years ago because we did have a vibe change and because the Democrats lost so bad medley in 2024. The blush is off the rose on left wing censorship and oh my God, you can't say that. Stop telling me what I can do, what I can say, what I can think, who my heroes are supposed to be. Just, you know, just get, get, get the fuck off of me.

Chris Cuomo (71:47)

Drew Barrymore's just a fascinating person from the start of her life to where she is now. And I think it's easy to categorize her as quote, unquote, woke. I mean, remember when she was like cross legged on the couch Saying that it was time or the country wanted Kamala to be Mamela. One of the worst clips in the history of television haunts me to this very day. But this is also the woman who married Tom Green. So I can't say I'm altogether shocked to see Drew Barrett Barrymore sitting face to face with Bill Maher, calling his sort of heterodox comedy or anti woke comedy refreshing, saying that he's a bravado about telling the truth. But where does this leave us with Marc Maron? I mean, it's no surprise that Bill Maher and Marc Maron agree on what you can and can't say, or whether it's a little hack need to say certain things about sex and gender. But what Marc Maron said was that it's hackneyed, right? Because. Because it's all happened. You're not kind of marginalized if you have that opinion anymore. And what Bill Maher said was that it's still dangerous. So can both of these things be true at the same time? Or are Marc Barrett and Bill Maher basically living in different worlds? I think sometimes Bill Maher has this sense of satisfaction about making points that he lives in a Hollywood bubble. If you say it at a bar in Cleveland, it's not really that brave. And if you say it at a bar anywhere outside of like West Hollywood and Manhattan, you're probably okay. But this is what to me gets maybe swept under the rug a little bit when we talk about the vibe shift. Yes, it's happened. I agree with Bill Maher that it's slightly less dangerous. I agree that it's happened. I agree with Marc Maron that those comedians had a lot of power and they changed, I guess, the incentive structure as to whether it was okay to make certain jokes or to say certain things because we all remember what it was like in the lead up to 2020. I mean, you could say nothing unless you wanted that to become your new identity. Right. If, if you wanted your identity like Martina Navratilova, for example, to become that you are, what I would say is, is pro woman. But what others would say is, is anti trans. What most, most of the media would say is anti trans. Trans. That's what's going to happen. If you say something that will become your entire media identity, your cultural identity, you will get more followers. Of course, we're thinking Back to like 2018, even earlier than that. Yeah, I mean, that's going to happen. We can think of a million examples of people who dare to say one thing. Gina Carano was on Mandalorian, which is the biggest show at the time, time, and said, you know, posted one like Boomer meme and had her life blown up. And that became her entire identity in the media and in the sort of culture. It was like, this is somebody who's, you know, fascist or whatever. So that's different now. But what we forget, and I think back to some of the earlier episodes of this shot, I was at the Aspen Institute, and I remember coming on that night live from Aspen saying, I'm telling you, these attitudes that are classified as woke, these ideologies, the sentiment is still alive and well with a significant amount of particularly millennials who this was their worldview and this is what they were taught was right and wrong. And especially, you know, as social media continues to rot our brains, we are adrift and looking for a sense of purpose and meaning. And it's very easy to find it where particularly the algorithms nudge us in these sort of strong emotional directions, we're pouring ourselves into these molds. And that happened in formative years for many, many millennials. Some people in Gen Z2, Gen Z was kind of forged in the fire of the pre and post vibe shift and actually nudge the vibe shift right along by disagreeing with certain things. But that's not going anywhere. So, yeah, I think Bill Maher is right that it's less dangerous. And I suppose, I think that Marc Mariner is right that sometimes it does get hackneyed because among comedians, they did kind of win the sort of top line culture war. But we don't have a monoculture anymore. We don't. We don't have a monoculture. We have scraps of monoculture, but we don't have those touchstones. We don't have the same experience of sitting down as a country and watching Ronald Reagan talk about the challenger. We're learning new facts about what had just happened to John F. Kennedy in real time while you're watching Walter Cronkite or Den Rather report from Dallas. We don't have those experiences anymore. For better or worse. We talk about the better and the worst here all the time, but we don't have it. So we're living basically in different microcultures and there's still a sort of overarching macroculture. We all know the President's Donald Trump for the most part. We all know the President's Donald Trump. We all know, though, you know, certain, like, pretty much everyone probably remembers the Backstreet Boys. I don't know what. I'm just this is just right off the dome. But we don't share the same. We don't share the same. We don't inhabit the same pop cultural house anymore. We're. We're in the same neighborhood, we're in the same country, but we're not in the same house. And so what they're both saying, I don't think they can't both be true for the macro culture, but they're true about. About their own microcultures. And that's where we're headed. And I think that's a good glimpse at where we're headed. Speaking of microculture, by the way, before I go, because I have to watch Below Deck, I've got to get that off the. Get that off the TiVo and find out what's happening with the crew, because those crazy kids are up to a lot of mischief this season. I did want to go over no spoilers, of course, because if you have not caught up with the Guild finale, I don't want to be the person who ruins that for you because it was spectacular. Are you watching the Gilded Age? You might not be watching the Gilded Age. Nobody's watching Gilded Age. I swear we started it right away when it first came out, and it felt like it wasn't even in a micro culture. It seemed like nobody was watching it, but apparently people were. And so it built and built. And finally it was sort of in the meme universe last season and then exploded in the meme universe this season. And you can let me know which is correct. But I just have a question. Whether we are calling him Train Daddy. This is George from Gilded Age. Are we calling is he Train Daddy or is he Railroad Daddy? Because, like, this is the problem with microculture is that some people. And if you're listening to this, I'm putting memes up on the screen about Railroad Daddy and Train Daddy, but nobody seems to have settled on whether George Russell is Train Daddy or Railroad Daddy. And I think there's a really big difference between calling him Train Daddy and Railroad Daddy. So you can let me know if you have thoughts on this. One thing everybody seems to agree on is that Jack is. Is called Clock Twink. I know some of you probably have thoughts on that, but Jack is called Clock Twink. That seems to be canon at this point. Even the cast is referring to him as Clock Twink. So just a lot to stew on as we await another season. It has been renewed. Those are my thoughts. I mean, I could keep going on Gilded Age. Molly, John Fast wrote an incredibly stupid piece in the New York Times about how it was just like the most knee jerk, superficial reaction to the Gilded Age. It was like someone smashed together. You're playing liberal bingo and you smash together Trump building a new ballroom with the Gilded Age season finale and you have this knee jerk, superficial commentary on Donald Trump is a robber baron because he likes gold. Just incredible work for Molly, John Fast and the New York Times because actually there is something interesting, interesting about Donald Trump sort of being this supposed titan of industry and stepping into the presidency at when you look at the explosion in social media and the valuations of these tech companies, what economically does genuinely look like a parallel to the Gilded Age that we talk about when we talk about Gilded Age. I don't know if Trump is trained at ear or clock twink. There's a lot to learn in the days and months ahead, but it's an actual parallel. You can actually say something about it. But it's so much more interesting than just Donald Trump likes gold and is therefore a robber baron who wants to, you know, bring back murderous union strikebreakers. Maybe we'll do this on. Maybe we'll do this on the next episode. But this was really just supposed to be me asking whether it's Railroad Daddy or Train Daddy. But of course, couldn't let the, Couldn't let the Molly Jung Fast column go, could I? Couldn't let that go unanswered here on Afterparty. That's the brave journalism that we do. I'll table that for Wednesday. But, you know, the point remains. It's just, it is what it is. All right, as a reminder, you can maybe let me know, weigh in Railroad Daddy or train daddy? That's emily.com a dangerous question to pose to the audience. Maybe don't weigh in on that. But you can email me. I answer most of your emails. I try to. At least I have lots of fun with it. So. Emilyevelmakermedia.com we will be back here on Wednesday live at 10pm Eastern. Catch us on YouTube live. It's so much fun. Or catch us afterwards. Subscribe wherever you get your podcast, subscribe on YouTube. And we'll be back Wednesday, 10pm with more Afterparty party.