Episode 8: This is What I Do

Summary

Aftermath: Hunt for the Anthrax Killer - Episode 8: "This is What I Do"

Host/Author: Wolf Entertainment + CBC
Release Date: May 7, 2025
Duration: 47 minutes

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Introduction and Background

Episode 8 of Aftermath: Hunt for the Anthrax Killer delves into the intricate investigation surrounding the 2001 anthrax attacks in the aftermath of September 11, 2001. Hosted by Jeremiah Kroll and featuring narratives from Dan Goldberg and Maureen Stevens, this episode unpacks the complexities of the FBI’s pursuit of the anthrax killer, ultimately focusing on the controversial suspect, Dr. Bruce Ivins.

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Maureen Stevens’ Story and Theories

Maureen Stevens, whose husband Robert Stevens was the first victim of the anthrax attacks, remains a pivotal figure in the narrative. Six years after her husband's murder, Maureen expresses frustration with the fading public memory of the anthrax case and challenges the official narrative.

Maureen Stevens ([00:25:08]): "I think it was taken out of there and I think somebody, for whatever reason, whatever agenda, they had just decided to try this and try it after September 11th because I would think that most people would associate the two."

Maureen posits that the anthrax attacks were not orchestrated by overseas terrorists but rather originated from within the United States bioweapons lab, USAMRIID. She criticizes the FBI and media for neglecting this angle, asserting her conviction despite the lack of public support.

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FBI Investigation and Suspect Identification

The FBI’s investigation into the anthrax attacks was one of the most extensive in U.S. history, marked by numerous false leads and significant bureaucratic challenges. The case gained renewed momentum when agents discovered irregularities in Dr. Ivins’ laboratory practices.

Dan Goldberg ([04:08]): "They put him on the spot. Essentially, he said okay without asking for a search warrant."

Investigators found unaccounted samples of the Ames strain of anthrax in Ivins’ lab and noted his unusual after-hours activity correlating with the timing of the attacks. These findings pointed suspicion directly at Ivins, setting the stage for a deeper investigation.

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Bruce Ivins’ Background and Personal Life

Dr. Bruce Ivins, a respected microbiologist at USAMRIID, became the focal point of the FBI’s investigation. Early in the episode, personal insights into Ivins’ life are revealed through testimonies from childhood friends and colleagues.

Ellen Heffner ([13:01]): "He was a quiet guy, but nice. He was always tried to do things just right."

Despite his professional acclaim, Ivins had a troubled relationship with his controlling mother and exhibited signs of psychological distress, including depression and paranoid personality disorder. These personal struggles were critical in shaping the FBI’s perception of him as a potential perpetrator.

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The FBI’s Evidence Against Ivins

The case against Ivins hinged on both circumstantial and circumstantial evidence. Genetic fingerprinting played a crucial role in linking the anthrax used in the attacks to samples from Ivins’ lab.

Dan Goldberg ([07:10]): "They now know what's genetically distinct about the batch of anthrax used in the letters, which means they can finally start to compare it to those thousands of samples they'd subpoenaed years ago from labs across the country."

Despite the genetic link, the FBI faced challenges in building a concrete case, as Ivins had access to the anthrax strain and no direct evidence placing him at the crime scenes. The discovery of Ivins’ homemade body armor and his obsessive behaviors further complicated the investigation.

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Psychological Profile and Deterioration

As the investigation intensified, Ivins' mental state deteriorated. Multiple confrontations with the FBI revealed inconsistencies in his statements and admitted behaviors that raised red flags.

Dan Goldberg ([16:21]): "He contradicts himself between interviews. And the hallmark of a person that lies to law enforcement is they forget to lie after a couple months."

Ivins exhibited signs of severe stress, substance abuse, and paranoid behavior, leading to involuntary psychiatric care. His fixation on a sorority, Kappa Kappa Gamma, and a thwarted plan to poison a former colleague highlighted his disturbed psyche.

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Ivins’ Death and Aftermath

In July 2008, amid mounting pressure and unresolved evidence, Bruce Ivins died by suicide. His death left the FBI without the opportunity to present his case in court, leading to significant controversy and questions about the conclusiveness of the investigation.

Dan Goldberg ([31:35]): "We are not going to have an indictment. We're not going to have a trial."

Ivins’ suicide was perceived by some as an avoidance of prosecution, while others viewed it as the final loss of a suspect who might have been innocent. The FBI faced criticism for not securing definitive proof and for the handling of the case.

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Government and Public Response

Following Ivins’ death, the Department of Justice held a press conference to present the FBI’s conclusions. However, the response was met with skepticism from lawmakers and the public due to the circumstantial nature of the evidence.

Dan Goldberg ([33:29]): "You were quoted Aug. 8 Burlington Free... you are unapologetic and that it is, err... erroneous to say that there were mistakes."

Senator Chuck Grassley and Congressman Rush Holt questioned the robustness of the FBI’s investigation, highlighting the lack of direct evidence tying Ivins conclusively to the anthrax attacks.

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Publication of FBI's Evidence and Senate Hearings

The FBI’s decision to publicize their findings led to increased scrutiny. Senator Mueller defended the investigation, while Congressman Rush Holt emphasized the circumstantial basis of the case against Ivins.

Congressman Rush Holt ([34:06]): "Ivan spent long hours in the lab and the envelopes were sold in Maryland. And he had personal weaknesses and strange behavior, but no witnesses, no anthrax spore, no fingerprints or personal DNA."

This discourse underscored the tension between the FBI’s confidence in their investigation and the legislative demand for more substantial evidence.

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National Academy of Sciences Review

The National Academy of Sciences conducted an independent review of the FBI’s scientific methods, particularly the genetic fingerprinting used to link Ivins to the anthrax. The review acknowledged improvements but did not provide concrete conclusions, emphasizing the difficulty in drawing definitive links solely based on genetic evidence.

Senator's Perspective ([38:28]): "To Decker, I felt betrayed. I had a prior relationship, professional relationship, with at least one or two people on the committee, and it had been friendly terms, and it had turned into a hostile environment when we went into that meeting."

This led Agent Scott Decker to grapple with the perceived inadequacies in the scientific backing of the case, even as he remained convinced of Ivins’ guilt based on the cumulative evidence.

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Agent Decker’s Perspective

Agent Scott Decker, the lead investigator, expressed unwavering confidence in Ivins’ guilt despite the lack of a trial. He authored a book detailing the “preponderance of evidence” against Ivins but remained troubled by the unresolved nature of the case following Ivins’ death.

Dan Goldberg ([41:49]): "I felt we had proved he did it, regardless of whether we went to trial or not or he pled guilty. In my mind, we had proven it."

Decker’s perspective highlights the personal and professional toll the case took on investigators, culminating in a sense of unfinished justice.

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Final Thoughts and Ripple Effects

The episode concludes by reflecting on the broader implications of the anthrax attacks and the subsequent investigation. Despite the profound impact on victims’ families and national security protocols, the story has largely faded from public consciousness.

Maureen Stevens ([46:14]): "But in the midst of all the tragedy, there are some positive ripple effects too. You just have to look closely for them."

The implementation of biohazard detection in mail facilities, advancements in emergency response plans, and enhanced security measures in bioweapons labs are noted as enduring changes resulting from the anthrax attacks. However, the lingering uncertainties and unresolved questions regarding Ivins’ guilt continue to cast a shadow over the case.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Maureen Stevens ([00:25:08]): "I think it was taken out of there and I think somebody, for whatever reason, whatever agenda, they had just decided to try this and try it after September 11th because I would think that most people would associate the two."

• Dan Goldberg ([07:10]): "They now know what's genetically distinct about the batch of anthrax used in the letters, which means they can finally start to compare it to those thousands of samples they'd subpoenaed years ago from labs across the country."

• Dan Goldberg ([16:21]): "He contradicts himself between interviews. And the hallmark of a person that lies to law enforcement is they forget to lie after a couple months."

• Dan Goldberg ([31:35]): "We are not going to have an indictment. We're not going to have a trial."

• Dan Goldberg ([39:17]): "We all know it doesn't prove that he did it, but it sure as heck tells us which door to knock on."

• Dan Goldberg ([41:49]): "I felt we had proved he did it, regardless of whether we went to trial or not or he pled guilty. In my mind, we had proven it."

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Conclusion

Episode 8 of Aftermath: Hunt for the Anthrax Killer provides a comprehensive examination of the FBI’s investigation into the 2001 anthrax attacks, focusing on Dr. Bruce Ivins as the primary suspect. Through personal narratives, expert testimonies, and a critical analysis of the evidence and investigative processes, the episode underscores the complexities of bioterrorism investigations and the profound effects they have on individuals and institutions. Despite Ivins’ death leaving many questions unanswered, the episode highlights the enduring changes and lessons learned from one of America’s most unsettling bioterrorism cases.

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Produced by Wolf Entertainment, USG Audio, Dig Studios, CBC Podcasts, and Hosted by Jeremiah Kroll.

Transcript

[Dan Goldberg]

1942, Europe. Soldiers find a boy surviving alone in the woods.

[Maureen Stevens]

They make him a member of Hitler's army.

[Dan Goldberg]

But what no one would know for.

[Maureen Stevens]

Decades, he was Jewish. Could a story so unbelievable be true?

[Dan Goldberg]

I'm Dan Goldberg.

[Maureen Stevens]

I'm from CBC's Personally Toy Soldier, available now wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC podcast. Heads up for our listeners. This episode contains mentions of death by suicide and alcohol and drug abuse. My name is Maureen Stevens and my husband Robert Stevens was murdered six years ago on Friday, and we're still trying to find out what happened to him. This is Maureen speaking to the Palm Beach Post in the fall of 2007. By this time she is so desperate for answers about who killed her husband that she feels her only recourse is to turn to the media to raise awareness. Robert Stevens had been the first victim in 2001, the photo editor who died in Florida. And by this point his story and the story of anthrax in general had long faded from the headlines. It seemed no one was talking about it anymore. But as Maureen said in her interview, she was still thinking about it and she was going to make sure the public remembered, even if she had to do it herself.

[Dan Goldberg]

This is not going to be forgotten. I'm not packing it away.

[Maureen Stevens]

I keep it sometimes in the front.

[Dan Goldberg]

Because I will not forget this, you.

[Maureen Stevens]

Know, what happened to my husband.

[Dan Goldberg]

I just won't.

[Maureen Stevens]

By now, six years in, it seemed Maureen might never really know who took her husband from her. Anthrax had become one of the largest cases the FBI had ever taken on. It'd gone down many rabbit holes, but if you asked anyone still following the it seemed like all the FBI had done was publicly accuse the wrong suspect. More than once, America had even gone to war in Iraq, citing the search for anthrax as a key motive. But despite all that energy and military action, no one in the American government could point to the person who'd mailed those letters. Most Americans took it as fact that the anthrax attacks had to have been linked to 9 11. The President and his administration certainly had. But after those six long years, Maureen has a different theory, that this anthrax wasn't at all related to terrorists overseas, but came from someone inside the United States own bioweapons lab, Yusamrid. I think it was taken out of there and I think somebody, for whatever reason, whatever agenda, they had just decided to try this and try it after September 11th because I would think that most people would associate the two. Maureen is convinced she's Correct. And she's not afraid to publicly criticize the FBI and the media for not pursuing her line of thinking. It just amazes me that they're just behaving the way they are.

[Dan Goldberg]

I mean, I just don't think they.

[Maureen Stevens]

Want to hear about me, talk about me, know anything about me, or they don't care about what happened to my husband. What Maureen doesn't know is that the FBI agrees with her. They have the same theory, and they have for a while. They've just been waiting for the right evidence that will point to the exact scientist who turned his expertise against his own country. And what they can't tell her or the public public yet is that after years of investigating, they now have a clue that puts their number one suspect firmly in their crosshairs. They might finally get their guy. I'm Jeremiah Kroll, and from Wolf Entertainment, this is the hunt for the Anthrax Killer. Episode 8 this is what I do. A couple years before Maureen gave that interview, an FBI colleague of agent Scott Decker's paid an unannounced visit to a particular lab at USAMRID, one that was run by anthrax vaccine whiz Dr. Bruce Ivins.

[Dan Goldberg]

So he and another agent asked Bruce if they could look around in his freezer and refrigerator. And Bruce said okay. They put him on the spot. Essentially, he said okay without asking for a search warrant. And they went in, and they found samples of Ames bacteria in different tubes with different dates that Ivins never turned over to us, which he should have under subpoena.

[Maureen Stevens]

Remember way back in 2001, the government had asked all the labs in the country with the AIM strain to send samples of each batch of that strain in their inventory. And Bruce Ivins had sent some, but not all, of the samples in his lab. On top of that, it even looked like he may have intentionally sent in the wrong sample. In one case, he explains it all as an oversight.

[Dan Goldberg]

But he had the subpoena. He knew what he was supposed to do.

[Maureen Stevens]

The FBI puts Bruce Ivins under surveillance. They also start combing through everything they can find about Ivan's actions around the time of the anthrax attacks, both at home and at work. And that's how they discover something surprising. There's a special room deep inside USAMridge. It's called B313. It's a hot sweep. A lab specifically designed for containment. In this case, the thing that's being contained is anthrax. Access to this room is strictly monitored. You can only enter with your own personalized keycard. And access logs show Bruce Ivan's keycard had some unusual activity in B313.

[Dan Goldberg]

We saw on those records the spikes where he started staying long nights in the laboratory in August of 2001.

[Maureen Stevens]

August 2001. In that month, before the first anthrax letter, Bruce Ivan's after hours time in the lab jumps 10 times compared to earlier in the year, with noticeable spikes around the dates the anthrax letters were mailed.

[Dan Goldberg]

If you look at the nights right before the mailing of each two different mailings, he was in there for long periods of time at night, right before each of the letters were mailed, working.

[Maureen Stevens]

Late and alone without any of the detailed notes he usually took.

[Dan Goldberg]

That was an aha moment. It was at that point they said, wait a minute. And then we all began to realize that this guy had done it. But how were we going to prove it?

[Maureen Stevens]

The hot, sweet hours are very suspicious, but they're certainly not a smoking gun. The missing anthrax samples, late nights at the lab. This is circumstantial evidence. A case against Ivins would need something incontrovertible, some way to show that the anthrax found in those letters mailed across the country was unquestionably the same anthrax as the one being stored in his freezer. And on top of that, they would need to prove that Ivins was the one who put it there. It's a daunting task. Luckily, help was on the way.

[Dan Goldberg]

This genetic sequence provides us with a fundamental platform for understanding ourselves from which revolutionary progress will be made in biomedical sciences and. And in the health and welfare of humankind.

[Maureen Stevens]

Isn't that amazing? Remember tigr? Some of their scientists had, in fact, made revolutionary progress in the field of biosciences by helping to crack the human genome. And for the past four years, they've been working quietly in the background of the anthrax case, trying to identify the DNA of anthrax. In March of 2005, they give the FBI a call. They finally cracked it.

[Dan Goldberg]

So we now had a genetic fingerprint for what was mailed in the envelope versus the original wild type of 1980. So we had a specific genetic fingerprint that we could identify what had been mailed. That was a big moment for us.

[Maureen Stevens]

They now know what's genetically distinct about the batch of anthrax used in the letters, which means they can finally start to compare it to those thousands of samples they'd subpoenaed years ago from labs across the country. The agents are meticulous. It takes months until eventually, when they test a batch from USAMRID, we got.

[Dan Goldberg]

Eight matches out of 1000 plus. And when we took out our records and looked at where each eight came from, they all came from the same place.

[Maureen Stevens]

That place is a large glass flask labeled RMR 1029, and it's located in Anthrax Hot Suite Room B313, with one person in charge of it.

[Dan Goldberg]

It was under the care and custodianship of Bruce ivins.

[Maureen Stevens]

Bruce ivins made the batch that was sent in the anthrax letters, and it remains under his control. This is like a giant neon arrow pointing directly at ivins. But there's a hitch.

[Dan Goldberg]

Other people had access to this laboratory. So was it Bruce? Was it his technician? Was it another scientist that could access his laboratory? We've got to figure out which of these individuals, if not all of them, was involved.

[Maureen Stevens]

So they do background checks, review access logs, interview these scientists and their colleagues.

[Dan Goldberg]

We went to that extent to rule out all the employees.

[Maureen Stevens]

And they find that none of Bruce's colleagues or employees are suspicious. They've all got alibis for the times the letters were mailed. So the real question now is, does Bruce Ivins?

[Dan Goldberg]

It was time to approach Bruce and tell him what we knew and see what he was able to tell us.

[Maureen Stevens]

At first, FBI agents keep their conversations with Ivins kind of casual, not accusing him of anything. But they've got some questions, including several new things they've turned up. Like an incident report from usamrid that says that back in 2001, Ivins had voluntarily decided, without authorization, to swab for stray anthrax spores all around his lab and shared office. And he'd actually found ames spores, but only in the area he worked in, and then decontaminated everything without telling his supervisors. What was that about? Or what about those late nights in the hot suite before the anthrax attacks? How did he account for those? And why had those late nights completely stopped? After the last anthrax attack?

[Dan Goldberg]

He couldn't account for his time. He was in that laboratory three nights in a row. Before each mailing, we called out a clue.

[Maureen Stevens]

For the first time in years, it feels like the FBI finally has clues. Plural. But after all the false leads and many mistakes, they're not going to risk blowing it. So they test and retest the genetic samples in different ways for months, and every time, it matches back to the same single source. Agents get a search warrant for Ivan's lab. They go by night without him knowing. In the fall of 2006, looking for stray anthrax lab logs, federal Eagle envelopes, notes about New York City or D.C. or senators. And they turn up nothing.

[Dan Goldberg]

Until we did what we call mirrored his computer, his hard drive in his laboratory. So we didn't take the computer, but we had a trained agent mirror the computer. In the course of 2007, I reviewed hundreds and hundreds of emails.

[Maureen Stevens]

Decker's team turns Bruce Ivan's computer and emails over to Greg Satoff, a forensic psychiatrist and consultant for the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit.

[Dan Goldberg]

Through the emails, I learn more about Dr. Ivins, some of the anxieties that he expressed, some of the concerns.

[Maureen Stevens]

Greg learns that back in 2000, Ivins was experiencing significant stress in his home and work life, enough that he sought professional help from a psychiatrist. He was diagnosed with depression and paranoid personality disorder and was prescribed medication. Greg also reads emails from that time in which Ivins describes how he's seeing the world. In one, he writes, it's like I'm not only sitting at my desk doing work, I'm also a few feet away watching me do it. In another, he writes, what is really scary is the paranoia. I get these paranoid episodes. Of course, I regret them thoroughly when they're over, but when I'm going through them, it's as if I'm a passenger on a ride. It's clear to the FBI that at the very least, Bruce Ivins has a troubled relationship to himself, his work, and his reality. They need to learn more about who this scientist really is and where his story started. So they head to his hometown, Lebanon, Ohio.

[Dan Goldberg]

Bruce came into my life as a friend just gradually, the way friends do.

[Maureen Stevens]

Ellen Heffner grew up in Lebanon and knew Bruce from childhood.

[Dan Goldberg]

We all walked to school together and.

[Maureen Stevens]

We would walk down off Mulberry and.

[Dan Goldberg]

Bruce would come from Broadway and he.

[Maureen Stevens]

Would meet us all, because you would develop a tribe of people by the time you got to school. Bruce may have got his knack for lab work from his dad, who was a pharmacist 30 miles northeast of Cincinnati. His father's pharmacy in Lebanon had been a town staple since Bruce's grandfather opened it in the 19th century. Ellen worked there for five years as a teenager.

[Dan Goldberg]

It had a very delightful character to it.

[Maureen Stevens]

It just was what you would picture.

[Dan Goldberg]

In an old historic town.

[Maureen Stevens]

Ellen didn't see Ivins as just a science geek. He also played the piano and enjoyed photography. He was a quiet guy, but nice. He was always tried to do things just right.

[Dan Goldberg]

And he was a little bit edgy.

[Maureen Stevens]

Or nervous, but a very kindly, thoughtful kid.

[Dan Goldberg]

And always treated everybody with the utmost respect.

[Maureen Stevens]

Ellen says that while Bruce's dad was a chatty, somewhat bumbling pharmacist, his mother, Mary Ivins, was a different story.

[Dan Goldberg]

His mother controlled everything. She controlled his environment, every little piece of what he did. And she also controlled her husband's life. And she did not treat her husband very well at all.

[Maureen Stevens]

Reportedly, she hit her husband in the head with a skillet and may have stabbed his hand with a fork. And Ellen says she had an intense relationship with Bruce. I think she was a little disappointed.

[Dan Goldberg]

In the way her other two boys turned out. So she was going to make him.

[Maureen Stevens]

Be the success that maybe she wasn't. Ellen didn't see what went on behind closed doors, but she got a small glimpse of Mrs. Ivan's relationship to Bruce when he asked her to be his date to the prom. She recalls that his mother was so strict that the couple was required to come back home before their other classmates had even arrived. Like I'm telling you, two hours max before it was orchestrated that she pick us up.

[Dan Goldberg]

Everything was orchestrated.

[Maureen Stevens]

Like, this is how I'm supposed to do things. Ellen says she never heard Bruce say anything negative about his mom. He was a good son, despite it all.

[Dan Goldberg]

I saw how much a parent could affect a child's life and the control and the emotional devastation and toll that can take on a child.

[Maureen Stevens]

The pressure his mom put on Bruce seemed to have paid off when he got a Ph.D. in microbiology and went to work in D.C. at the Army's lab. Ellen ran into him once while he was back home in Ohio visiting.

[Dan Goldberg]

I saw him and he met me on the corner. He said, ellen, he said, I am just doing so well. And he was so excited about the person that he was becoming.

[Maureen Stevens]

He thought it was like, I've made it. A dutiful son, an accomplished microbiologist, a man fulfilling everyone's expectations by working at the top of his field. So what happens when that man becomes a suspect in the worst biological attack in US history? I'm Sarah Trelevin, and for over a.

[Dan Goldberg]

Year, I've been working on one of.

[Maureen Stevens]

The most complex stories I've ever covered.

[Dan Goldberg]

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

[Maureen Stevens]

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know it was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

[Dan Goldberg]

How long has she been doing this?

[Maureen Stevens]

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service.

[Dan Goldberg]

The Caitlyn's baby.

[Maureen Stevens]

It's a long story.

[Dan Goldberg]

Settle in. Available now.

[Maureen Stevens]

Over a period of several months in 2007, Decker and his fellow agents called Bruce Ivins in for questioning multiple times.

[Dan Goldberg]

Well, he would contradict himself between interviews. And the hallmark of a person that lies to law enforcement is they forget to lie after a couple months. And so when you ask them the same questions again, they give you different answers because they're not telling the truth, they're making it up, and they don't remember what they said before. And that's what he was doing.

[Maureen Stevens]

In one of those conversations, Bruce does let something slip. He admits to sometimes mailing packages using false names and return addresses at locations far from his home. It's a revealing admission, and it's possible Ivins realized it was too revealing. When the FBI calls him to another meeting, he brings a lawyer. Agents ask him again about those late nights in the lab.

[Dan Goldberg]

At first he said he went in there to get away from the security guard because if he was in his office, the security guard would bug him in the evenings asking for a newspaper or something. He'd say, well, Bruce, we checked and there was no security guard working in that area of the building on those nights you were in the laboratory. Eventually he just shut down and wouldn't answer.

[Maureen Stevens]

In November of 2007, agents approach Bruce after work. When he says he wants to go home, they inform him that his house is being searched at that very moment. Then they tell him to get in their car.

[Dan Goldberg]

They took Bruce to a hotel while the house was being searched because Bruce wasn't going back to his house that night.

[Maureen Stevens]

The FBI talk with his wife and two children while agents searched the house. Agent.

[Dan Goldberg]

They recovered guns and ammunition from his basement. And he had in his basement a homemade shooting range, probably for.22 caliber. People do that. It's not that unusual. They took his computers and they towed his car to a garage where they searched his vehicles, two or three vehicles, him and his wives.

[Maureen Stevens]

They find a 2003 Baltimore sun article about former person of interest Steven Hatfill and articles on handwriting analysis. There's also a 10 point typewritten list musing about the reasons why one of his colleagues, a co inventor of the anthrax vaccine, could have been the anthrax mailer. Most curious, they find a note titled Themes in Bruce's own handwriting.

[Dan Goldberg]

It was a list of defenses he may be using or planned to use about why it wouldn't have been him to do the mailings.

[Maureen Stevens]

Each explanation for why he might be the killer is enumerated and he has quotes around the same phrase each time. One that psychiatric problems made me do it. Two. That political reasons get Patriot act plus other legislation passed made me do it. Three. That financial reasons make money off new vaccine made me do it. 4. That I deliberately submitted anthrax samples that were either contaminated, altered, adulterated, or otherwise different from what they were stated to be. By 2007, the FBI and Bruce Evans had been locked in a bizarre dance for more than two years. There have been no charges against him, and he's still working at one of the most top secret government bioweapons labs in America. He has guns in his basement and anthrax in his freezer. And the FBI are monitoring his every move. But despite the weapons and suspicious notes, FBI agents haven't found any of the token Federal Eagle envelopes or anything else concrete. They haven't found anything that draws a straight line from Bruce to the actual mailings. What they do know is that he lives near the post office that sold the precise batch of envelopes used in the mailings. And some of those letters were mailed in Princeton, New Jersey, Right outside a sorority that Bruce Ivins is oddly fascinated by. They know he has a history of using the mail to impersonate people and letters to make threats. That he did an unauthorized decontamination of his workspace in 2001 after finding stray AIM spores. And they know he's the custodian of the precise flask that holds the anthrax batch that killed five people. Most crucially, they know that he appears to have intentionally withheld that very evidence. And that allegation alone is enough to press charges.

[Dan Goldberg]

I wanted to charge him with obstruction of justice, and I was overruled by the U.S. attorney's office.

[Maureen Stevens]

The Department of Justice decides not to go after Ivins yet they want to build the case to see what else they can find. It's a gamble, especially because of something agents did find at Ivan's house that gave them pause. Homemade body armor.

[Dan Goldberg]

That's unusual. I've never seen one of those before. The ones I've recovered during armored car robberies of HUGE had been stolen from the trunks of police cars. But this one was homemade. That's unusual. And that shows evidence of planning something big. What possible reason could you have it unless you were going to commit a crime and thought you might be in lethal danger?

[Maureen Stevens]

Agents interview Bruce again to learn more about his mental state, and he unexpectedly opens up about his decades old interest in the sorority Kappa Kappa Gamma.

[Dan Goldberg]

It may be that Dr. Ivins felt that those, while embarrassing, were easier to talk about than to be speaking about the issue at hand that would subject him to indictment.

[Maureen Stevens]

Greg Satoff, the FBI behavioral analyst, is surprised at the degree to which Bruce talks. When agents ask him about his interest in the sorority, Bruce tells them bluntly, oh, no, you don't understand. It's not an interesting. It's an obsession. You can't understand. Bruce says that sometimes while his wife is out of town, he drives long distances at night to visit different KKG sorority chapters all over the eastern seaboard. Charlottesville, Philadelphia, Durham, Knoxville. He tells agents that at one point, he even broke into a sorority house to steal their cipher book. The fact that the anthrax letters were dropped into a mailbox outside a KKG chapter in Princeton, New Jersey, now feels less like an odd coincidence and more like a glimpse into the fuller picture of Bruce Ivins secret life.

[Dan Goldberg]

So I think that in answering these.

[Maureen Stevens]

Questions, Dr. Ivins revealed a lot more about himself than he realized. It's also at this moment that Bruce admits that he had stolen the lab notebook of his former colleague and KKG member Nancy Hegwood. And then, shockingly, he admits that he had planned to kill someone. He had developed a grudge against another former colleague and sorority member who had moved to upstate New York. He was supposed to go visit her one day and came up with a dark plan.

[Dan Goldberg]

Well, he got the odd idea to take a syringe and inject poison into the bottle of the wine through the cork. And that's what he was going to give to her. Now, why is that important? It also is a twisted mind, a potential killer. But he was willing to drive long distances to commit murder. So there's a pattern now. And there's also a disturbed mind.

[Maureen Stevens]

In the end, Ivins didn't follow through with his plan. But the FBI has heard enough to convince them to stay on high alert. They continue to surveil and interview Ivins. And according to his friend and colleague at usamrid, Jeff Adamovich, that took a toll.

[Dan Goldberg]

All of these things were having a.

[Maureen Stevens]

Negative impact on him. And, you know, I really didn't know what to do.

[Dan Goldberg]

I mean, I talked to him quite a lot about this, this issue at the time.

[Maureen Stevens]

And, you know, I tried to encourage.

[Dan Goldberg]

Him to get a better lawyer or.

[Maureen Stevens]

I tried to encourage him to, you.

[Dan Goldberg]

Know, maybe talk to a, you know, mental health professional, those sorts of things. And I'm not sure how much at that time if he was trusting me less and less.

[Maureen Stevens]

I don't know if he thought I'd been co opted by the FBI.

[Dan Goldberg]

He wasn't really nearly as open as.

[Maureen Stevens]

He used to be. And Greg Sathoff, the forensic psychologist, says that Ivan's behavior reached critically dangerous levels in early 2008. On March 17, he spilled some anthrax he was working with on his pants, but then didn't take the necessary steps to deal with it securely. On March 17, he did not immediately report it to his suite supervisor, and his supervisor is reported.

[Dan Goldberg]

You know, from that point on, he.

[Maureen Stevens]

Was barred from all laboratory space. USAMRID dismisses him with a sort of honorable discharge. He can do administrative duties and retire with a pension, but he's not allowed to step inside any lab at usamrid. The next morning, Diane Ivins, Bruce's wife, discovers him unconscious. Believing he'd taken sleeping pills or Valium along with alcohol, she calls 911. He's rushed to nearby Frederick Memorial Hospital. He survives the overdose and is discharged soon after. He goes to Bethesda's suburban hospital for treatment, where he's prescribed antipsychotics. He tells doctors then that he constantly pops ambien and drinks 12 shots of vodka a day. Jeff Adamovich, his friend, says Ivan's behavior is not that of a guilty man about to be exposed, but an innocent man being harassed by the FBI.

[Dan Goldberg]

It really had a dramatic impact on his behavior, his mental state. You know, he was drinking, which was uncharacteristic for him. You know, he was becoming more withdrawn. I think that he was becoming quite paranoid at that time, and probably rightfully so, because the FBI clearly was reading his emails. They were listening to his phone calls.

[Maureen Stevens]

They were going through his trash. In early May 2008, Ivins goes to a treatment facility to get sober. When he gets out a few weeks later, the U.S. attorney's office makes him an offer. Full immunity if he comes in with his lawyer and tells the whole truth. But if he lies, the penalty is steep. Ivins agrees. He shows up with his lawyer and talks.

[Dan Goldberg]

He contradicted himself with his earlier interviews from January and February, and it didn't go well at all. He eventually, as I recall, just shut down, wouldn't talk anymore. He eventually just stopped talking. And then on the way home, his attorney told him that it looks like they're going to indict you, Bruce, and you can expect them to ask for the death penalty.

[Maureen Stevens]

And with that, the FBI races to prepare an arrest warrant. It's not like what you see on TV when it happens overnight. This is a federal case with blunders and press galore, a history of false starts and a bureaucratic machine guiding the way. If the DOJ had already pressed charges for obstructing justice, it's possible Ivins would be behind bars by now. Instead, on July 6, a surveillance team finds Bruce walking erratically down the street, talking to himself. And then he shows up at Usamrid ranting.

[Dan Goldberg]

He apparently was speaking about having a list of those that he would, would kill, that he had a Glock handgun.

[Maureen Stevens]

That was going to be delivered, and.

[Dan Goldberg]

That he would exact his revenge. This was very concerning to the individual who was a subordinate. This subordinate went to the supervisor who instructed the subordinate to hide in the hot suites, because at that point, Dr. Ivins did not have access to the hot suites.

[Maureen Stevens]

A few days later, Bruce goes to his regular group counseling session in Frederick. His addictions counselor, Gene C. Dooley, was so alarmed by his behavior during that session that she spoke publicly about it to cnn.

[Dan Goldberg]

Years later, he started in on his tirade and started talking about how he was not going to be indicted, he wasn't going to allow them to indict him on five counts of capital murder, and he was not going to go out willingly, and he was going to go out in a blaze of glory.

[Maureen Stevens]

What stood out to Gene wasn't just the threat of violence. It was the specificity of his plans.

[Dan Goldberg]

He had said that he had was getting. The next day he was getting a Glock from his son, and he was going to take out his colleagues at Fort Dietrich, people that had wronged him.

[Maureen Stevens]

At Fort Detrick, the FBI agents.

[Dan Goldberg]

And it wasn't a casual conversation. He was extremely angry and extremely rageful, and he described it in detail.

[Maureen Stevens]

According to the therapist, Dr. Ivins monopolized.

[Dan Goldberg]

That 90 minute session and that, you know, he was smiling strangely throughout. The people in the group therapy session discussed him and agreed that he seemed to want to be killed in a suicide by cop scenario. And after the session, one of the other therapy members heard him say, you'll see me in the papers.

[Maureen Stevens]

Local police pick Bruce up and take him to a hospital for involuntary psychiatric care. From the hospital, Bruce leaves harrowing voicemails for his psychiatric counselor. This is one of them.

[Dan Goldberg]

This is Bruce Ivins.

[Maureen Stevens]

And I just wanted to tell you.

[Dan Goldberg]

How, how just disappointed and betrayed I feel about what happened. I got arrested by the police. I had the guys with the guns, got hooked up. It was a terrible experience.

[Maureen Stevens]

Bruce stays involuntarily committed in the hospital for 10 days. He then stays voluntarily a few days longer before being discharged on July 24 and heading home the next night. He writes his Wife a handwritten note. Please let me sleep. He writes. Please. Then he consumes a mix of sedatives and over the counter drugs that a PhD and former pharmacy worker like him would know are fatal. Soon after, his wife finds him on the bathroom floor, breathing but unconscious. He's rushed to the hospital where for a while he drifts in and out of consciousness. A nurse asked Bruce if he was trying to kill himself. The 62 year old scientist doesn't move. Then without a word, he nods. The next morning, it all comes to an end.

[Dan Goldberg]

The scientist, Bruce Ivins, died Tuesday at a suburban Washington hospital. Ivins was a veteran government scientist specializing in countermeasures to anthrax attacks.

[Maureen Stevens]

As you know, the prime suspect committed suicide just as the government was getting ready to charge him with the attacks that killed five people and made 17 others sick. From Agent Decker's perspective as an investigator, Ivan's death isn't just about the loss of a suspect's life. It's about the loss of an entire process of justice.

[Dan Goldberg]

I'm thinking immediately, what does this mean for us? What does this mean for solving this case? We're not going to have an indictment. We're going to have a trial. And we're not really going to prove this knucklehead did this to the public satisfaction. And oh shit, what about the last six years of work?

[Maureen Stevens]

After all the dead ends, false leads, PR screw ups, not to mention over 5,000 grand jury subpoenas, 10,000 witness interviews, and 600,000 hours of investigators time, Decker and the FBI finally felt like they had their man. They were getting ready for a trial. And now Bruce Ivan's death throws it all into question.

[Dan Goldberg]

We all saw it as the easy way out, the coward's way out. Rather than stand up and fight a trial and make us prove you're guilty, he had taken the easy way out.

[Maureen Stevens]

Once the news of Ivan's death gets out, the FBI is put under tremendous pressure to prove now, posthumously, that Ivins really had been behind the anthrax attacks. Ordinarily, we do not publicly disclose evidence.

[Dan Goldberg]

Against a suspect who has not been charged, in part because of the presumption of innocence.

[Maureen Stevens]

Nine days after Ivins died, the Department of Justice holds a press conference in which they unveil the details of their case against him.

[Dan Goldberg]

Because of the extraordinary and justified public interest in this investigation, as well as the significant public attention resulting from the death of Dr. Bruce Edward Ivins last week, today we are compelled to take the extraordinary step of providing first the victims and their families as well as Congress and the American public with an overview of some recent developments as well.

[Maureen Stevens]

As some of our conclusions. The FBI wants conclusions, but everyone else has questions. Here's Senator Chuck Grassley grilling FBI Director Robert Mueller.

[Dan Goldberg]

You were quoted Aug. 8 Burlington Free.

[Maureen Stevens]

Press, as saying you, quote, unquote, are unapologetic and that it is, quote, unquote.

[Dan Goldberg]

Erroneous to say that there were mistakes. I do not believe that we inappropriately undertook any investigative steps in the course of the investigation, regardless of the individual. That that means to say, I think the steps that were taken in the course of the investigation, given the information that we had at a particular time, generated appropriate investigative steps by. In the. In the course of the investigation.

[Maureen Stevens]

Congressman Rush Holt, whose district covers Princeton, New Jersey, doesn't buy it. I mean, certainly there are questions. I mean, he will quickly admit that this is a circumstantial case. You know, Ivan spent long hours in the lab and the envelopes were sold in Maryland. And he had personal weakness, Weaknesses and strange behavior, but no witnesses, no anthrax scores, no fingerprints or personal DNA. No one can place Ivins in Princeton. Most of that is right, except for the fact that Ivins had admitted to decontaminating Ames force outside of his lab when investigators found evidence of that cleanup. But what many people really want is the story. What was Ivan's motive? Why would he do this? Mueller and the FBI released their internal findings publicly, revealing for the first time their theory of what set Ivins in motion. In September of 2001, the new anthrax vaccine Ivins was creating was facing a giant potential bureaucratic slowdown. In an email, Ivins said the slowdown would be a terrible thing that will postpone all sorts of things. More alarming to him, it seems, was the fact that the vaccine he'd helped create was beginning to fall out of favor. It was under fire for its use in the 1990s Gulf War after some vaccinated soldiers had become ill. Gulf War.

[Dan Goldberg]

Syndrome, they called it. And it was theorized that it was the result of being vaccinated for anthrax and that the anthrax vaccine was not very clean. And it was a political hot potato. It really was.

[Maureen Stevens]

The FDA hadn't forced new standards the vaccine had to meet, which was taking significant time. Decker thinks it made Ivins fear for his own future.

[Dan Goldberg]

At the Pentagon, there was a lot of talk about where the research money should go. They thought, we're putting all this money into anthrax research. We're taking all this political heat because of Gulf War Syndrome. Just shut it down and move on.

[Maureen Stevens]

Just before 9 11, Ivins emailed a colleague outside Usamrid, revealing that the government's stockpile of anthrax vaccines was now down to its very last lot. So soldiers wouldn't be able to be vaccinated in the field anymore. And critically, Bruce Ivins would himself soon not be allowed to enter the hot suite to do his anthrax research because his own vaccinations wouldn't be up to date. So management had proposed a solution.

[Dan Goldberg]

They went to Bruce and they said, we want you to stop working on anthrax. We think you ought to work on glanders, which is animal disease. And he didn't like that. That was not for him.

[Maureen Stevens]

Ivins got upset, telling his manager, I am an anthrax researcher. This is what I do. Consider what this moment would be like for the man who'd walked the streets of his hometown proud of the person he'd become, a researcher at the top of his field. After everything the FBI had learned about Bruce, his paranoia, his instability, not to mention his obsessive commitment to even minor vendettas, it's not hard to imagine the lengths he might go to to keep the entirety of his work afloat. If Ivan's motivation behind the anthrax attacks was to make anthrax seem more necessary in order to keep working in the field, he loved it worked, probably better than anyone could have imagined. Within a few months of the anthrax attacks, the FDA fast tracked the approval of his vaccine funding, even though it hadn't yet met the FDA's new standards. His research became so important that 18 months after the first attack, the government awarded him the decoration for exceptional civilian service, equivalent to the Distinguished Service Medal if he was a soldier. All of that wasn't enough for the FBI to convince the government of his guilt. In September 2008, Robert Mueller gets called before a Senate Judiciary Committee. He tells Congress that to make sure that the science that pointed to Ivins was trustworthy, the FBI would seek an independent review of the case by the National Academy of Sciences. This process puts agent Scott Decker in a weird spot. He finds that he's suddenly in an adversarial relationship with the scientists he knew who are now scrutinizing every detail of his work. And from the very first meeting, the energy felt off.

[Dan Goldberg]

To Decker, I felt betrayed. I had a prior relationship, professional relationship, with at least one or two people on the committee, and we had been on friendly terms, and it had turned into a hostile environment when we went into that meeting. So I felt betrayed.

[Maureen Stevens]

The academy covers a lot of ground. And one part of the FBI's investigation becomes a sticking point. How conclusive was the genetic fingerprinting around RMR 1029? How certain was TIGR that they had traced the right anthrax variation back to Ivins?

[Dan Goldberg]

It was like they thought we were saying the genetics proved Ivins did it and they wouldn't get off the boat. It's not true. We all know it doesn't prove prove that he did it, but it sure as heck tells us which door to knock on.

[Maureen Stevens]

Once they'd found that door, Ivins became the sole suspect. In large part because RMR 1029 had narrowed down who had access to that anthrax.

[Dan Goldberg]

Eight matches. We had eight matches to the mailed anthrax into over 1,000 samples that I had collected with the help of other agents on the squad.

[Maureen Stevens]

But now the academy's investigative committee brings up what seems like a bombshell.

[Dan Goldberg]

All eight, with the exception of one, came from Bruce Ivan's lab.

[Maureen Stevens]

With the exception of one. It turns out USAMRID isn't the only lab with access to RMR 1029.

[Dan Goldberg]

The eighth one came from a different laboratory, A contract laboratory in Ohio that had government contracts.

[Maureen Stevens]

Of the eight samples that match, they know Bruce is personally responsible for seven. So what about number eight? Couldn't that prove Ivins isn't the only one who could have made RMR 1029?

[Dan Goldberg]

Where did they get it? They got it from Bruce Ivins. He had sent it to him. So all eight originated from Bruce's hands.

[Maureen Stevens]

Still, even if Ivins made the anthrax, someone else with access to it in Ohio could have mailed the letters, which Decker says the FBI had already thought of.

[Dan Goldberg]

We sent a couple agents out to Ohio. We did go to the trouble to alibi all the employees at this laboratory to show that they had never been to Princeton, had never been away for a full weekend in order to do the mailing.

[Maureen Stevens]

In the end, the National Academy of Sciences spent two years investigating Decker and the FBI's work. They found areas for improvement, but didn't come to any concrete conclusions. In fact, that's the one thing they were confident about. Which they repeated over and over again in their report. That it is difficult to draw conclusions. The committee's report also says they didn't review any classified material and that they aren't qualified to analyze the criminal evidence. They were reviewing the science, not the strength of the case. Overall, for Agent Scott Decker, that makes all the difference.

[Dan Goldberg]

I understood the science because I was a scientist, but now I was a detective, and the two things don't always go together.

[Maureen Stevens]

Decker says he learned to marry those two sides of himself, the scientist and the detective. He'd gone from being a tried and true lab rat to stopping bank robbers on the streets, to hunting the most famous bioterrorists in US History. So putting the criminal evidence and the scientific evidence together on this case, he has no doubts about Bruce Evans.

[Dan Goldberg]

I felt we had proved he did it, regardless of whether we went to trial or not or he pled guilty. In my mind, we had proven it. When you look at all the evidence together, it's the preponderance of evidence is what we call it. It's pretty damning against him.

[Maureen Stevens]

Agent Decker spent several years processing the case, writing a fact filled book on that preponderance of evidence. But even after the book and that almost decade long investigation and now having retired from the FBI, there's a part of the case that he still can't shake.

[Dan Goldberg]

I'm confident that we got the right person. I'm not happy with how it turned out. It would have been much more satisfying to go to trial. I probably would have testified at some point and let the jury or the judge find out if we really had proved it beyond a reasonable doubt. That part I'm not happy about. Nobody on the investigation is happy about that. We all felt cheated. We all felt that Ivins had cheated the public and the US Government.

[Maureen Stevens]

There's something else the public got cheated out of a decisive ending to the story. And that seems to have led us to losing track of the story altogether. In thinking about why that happened, I thought of something I learned from the US Postal Service in the process of making this podcast. Have you seen those little barcodes on your mail? If you look, you'll see there's a long series of variously sized vertical lines on the front of your letters and packages, usually right above or below the address. That's what the US Postal Service calls intelligent mail. It's a unique identifier for each parcel that shows who mailed it, where it was mailed, and exactly how it got there. That entire system was born out of the anthrax attacks. Postal officials say it would help find a mailer a lot faster than it took back then. Those little lines were a big deal when they were invented, but today, we hardly even notice them, which to me feels like a kind of metaphor for this whole case. The anthrax attacks changed forever the lives of five victims and their families Robert Stevens, Joseph Christine Jr. Thomas Morris Jr. Kathy Nguyen and Ottilie Lundgren. Their loved ones, like Joan Jackson and Maureen Stevens are still reeling. My family was devastated by it.

[Dan Goldberg]

I of course, still feel the effects of it.

[Maureen Stevens]

Whenever it comes up, I like to have Robert around. I like to have photographs of him. I love talking about him, so that is comforting. And I never feel he's very far away from me anyway. But for the rest of us, despite the months of national panic these attacks caused, leading the nightly news, even shutting down Capitol Hill, it's like the story just disappeared.

[Dan Goldberg]

It's remarkable.

[Maureen Stevens]

Now, just to add the point that.

[Dan Goldberg]

You know, 20 years down the road, people don't think about anthrax that much.

[Maureen Stevens]

Jo B. Warrick is the Pulitzer Prize winning journalist who tracked the story for more than two decades. He thinks part of the reason we've forgotten about the attacks is that so many of us bought into the wrong story to begin with.

[Dan Goldberg]

As a journalist and as an author, you really come to understand the importance of story in the way we understand things. Start to look for answers that make sense based on our own stories and our own history. And sometimes the real answers can be so far away from what those preconceived notions are.

[Maureen Stevens]

As the truth moved away from those preconceived notions, the story got murky even for the press. And then it just faded away. Because of that, even all these years later, I don't think we fully understand the implications of what did happen because the ripple effects of those attacks in this investigation were felt widely from law enforcement telling themselves the wrong story about their suspects. Really, I do not know how we survived it.

[Dan Goldberg]

I am not the anthrax killer.

[Maureen Stevens]

To leaders misreading danger signs. The two deaths might have been prevented if officials had respected workers requests for earlier testing and antibiotic distribution to the nation. Kickstarting a war for the wrong reasons.

[Dan Goldberg]

I deeply regret that the information, some of the information, not all of it. Some of the information I presented which was multi source was wrong and it.

[Maureen Stevens]

Is a lot on my record. But in the midst of all the tragedy, there are some positive ripple effects too. You just have to look closely for them. In the wake of the anthrax attacks, the US Postal Service installed biohazard detection systems in every mail processing facility in America. Local hospitals developed their first emergency operation plans for biological disasters. State labs got funding to test for anthrax and other toxic agents so they didn't have to wait for federal agencies. And the Department of Defense instigated a dual entry rule in its most lethal contamination labs. Now at least two people have to be together at all times, and they're monitored by cameras. The anthrax killings have transformed so many different aspects of our lives, from the huge geopolitical to the tiny procedural. But just like those barcodes on our mail, they go unnoticed today. Unnoticed but still reverberating. It's like something Jo Kursine Jr's sister Joan Jackson pointed out. It's a tragedy.

[Dan Goldberg]

We never do anything in a vacuum, so whatever we do is going to affect someone else directly or indirectly.

[Maureen Stevens]

Someone told themselves a story and acted on it. Not just the anthrax killer, but the FBI, the cdc, the president of the United States, and so many others. And every action creates a ripple that creates an aftermath that makes a real difference in people's lives, whether we remember the story or not. The Hunt for the Anthrax Killer is a production of Wolf Entertainment, USG Audio and Digg Studios in collaboration with CBC Podcasts. The series is hosted by me, Jeremiah Kroll. It's created, written and executive produced by Scott, Tiffany and me at Digg Studios. Aftermath is executive produced by Dick Wolf, Elliot Wolf and Steven Michael at Wolf Entertainment, Josh Block at USG Audio and Jonielle Kastner at Spoke Media. The series was produced by Kelly Kolf, story editing by Janiel Kastner, sound design and mix by Evan Arnett original Composition by John O'Hara Production by Spoke Media research and fact checking by Hayley Nelson podcast art designed by no Ideas Voice direction by Athena Carkanis Additional reporting Aaron Schrank and Sarah Schleed Research and additional story support Ben Cunningham, Astrid Landon, Zach Kligler, Leigh Hemgartner and Mohammad Farouk. The executive team at Spoke Media includes Aliyah Tavakolian and Travis Ballinger. Our senior Cross Promo producer is Amanda Cox. Our video producers are Evan Igaard, Tamina Aziz and John Lee Senior digital producer Emily Connell Cross promo Associate producer Kelsey Cueva Data analyst Ashley McDonough, Natalia Ferguson. The executive team at CBC includes Cecil Fernandez and Chris Oak. Tanya Springer is the Senior Manager at CBC Podcasts. Arif Noorani is the director of CBC Podcasts and a special thanks to Tre Jones, Caroline Hamilton, Jenna Burnett, Carson McCain, the Opperman Report podcast, Ben Steiner, Tamar Wolf, Dr. Rita Colwell, Dr. Dan Handfling, John Hefner, author Susan Jones, former Assistant U.S. attorney Rachel Carlson Lieber, attorney Rosemary McDermott, U.S. postal Inspector Kai Pickens, foreign policy aide Tim Reiser and extra special thanks to the author David Willman and you for listening thank you. For more CBC Podcasts, go to CBC CA Podcasts.