Staten Island v. New York City | Revisionist History

Summary

Against the Rules with Michael Lewis – "Staten Island v. New York City" (Revisionist History Crossover)

Release Date: July 30, 2026
Host: Ben Nadifafrey (with introductions by Michael Lewis & Malcolm Gladwell)

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Episode Overview

This special crossover episode kicks off a five-part miniseries, “The Staten Island Problem,” produced by Ben Nadifafrey for Revisionist History and featured on Against the Rules. At its core, the episode investigates Staten Island’s overlooked but explosive 1990s secession push—a movement that nearly fractured New York City and eerily mirrors contemporary American division. Ben’s deep dive combines vivid historical storytelling, notable New Yorker profiles, and an examination of the collision between race, representation, and trust in leadership at a pivotal moment in urban history.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Setting the Scene: Staten Island, The Forgotten Borough

• Ben Nadifafrey introduces his fascination with New York, noting Staten Island’s perpetual outsider status even within the city it technically belongs to.
  • He describes his first visit, which involves a subway-to-ferry trip: “You land in a place that just is not New York City… New York City is all shoebox apartments. Staten Island is single family homes. NYC is liberal, Staten Island is conservative.” (08:08)
• The “forgotten borough” has long felt marginalized—geographically remote, sociopolitically conservative, and literally the city’s dumping ground.

The 1990s NYC Backdrop

• The city is in crisis: graffiti, high crime rates, racial tension—and in the midst of it, the ascent of David Dinkins as NYC’s first Black mayor (13:11).
• Malcolm Gladwell, then a young reporter in NYC, recalls the city’s negative reputation (“It was a hellhole… Nobody wanted the job.” 11:53 & 12:34)

Dinkins and The Politics of Hope

• Marcia Smith describes Dinkins: “He really did appeal to people’s better angels. He really was that.” (13:17)
• Dinkins’ vision of NYC is a “gorgeous mosaic” (17:37) embracing diversity, but he quickly becomes a focal point for backlash—specifically from Staten Island.

Race, Representation, and Secession

• Dinkins’ election and the city’s new majority-minority demographic tap longstanding racial anxieties, especially in white, working-class Staten Island.
• Marcia Smith argues secession talk is racially tinged:
  • “Of course, they’re thinking that, because they don’t want to be governed by a black mayor.” (19:07)
• His administration realizes that if Staten Island secedes, NYC will suffer a major financial and political crisis: “If Staten Island seceded… the city would lose almost 20% of its land, including, crucially, its last operational dump.” (19:18)

The Flashpoint: Police, Protest & the Breakdown of Trust

• The episode recounts (24:03) the 1992 police killing of Kiko Garcia and ensuing Washington Heights riots as a microcosm of fraying city trust.
  • Dinkins sides openly with the victim’s family—further alienating the police force, who see him as “selling them out.”
  • Staten Island borough president Guy Molinari is galvanized by this divide, becoming Dinkins’ vocal antagonist.

The “Molinari Problem”

• Guy Molinari is an old-school, tough-talking political operator: “The only rules in politics are what the voters think.” (28:50)
• Molinari stirs secessionist sentiment, criticizing Dinkins’ every move and defending the grievances of Staten Island and NYPD.

The Showdown: Dinkins’ Staten Island Week

• In a risky PR move, Dinkins spends a grueling week on Staten Island, hoping to convince residents to reject secession.
  • Susan Molinari (Congresswoman, Guy’s daughter) presents Dinkins with a mock “lock to the garbage dump”—a public humiliation (34:43).
  • Dinkins, pouring sweat, insists:
    • “If I were to come for a political reason, might I not then reason? I’ll come to Staten Island for two days? …But I’m here for seven days.” (36:29)
    • “I intend to be the mayor of all the people of New York… From City Island to Staten Island.” (17:37)
    • On secession: “Y’ all ain’t going nowhere.” (38:37)
• Despite his appeals, the hostility is palpable. Residents grill him on the ever-growing Fresh Kills landfill; Dinkins is portrayed as fastidious and out-of-touch in this environment.

The Stakes: Not Just a Borough, but America’s Future

• Ben connects Staten Island’s grievances to broader national patterns:
  • “Every political arrangement includes some disgruntled minority, someone or some place that feels left out… That problem is at the very heart of what’s going on in our country today.” (09:34)
  • The secession fight is “a story about what happens when neighbors feel like they have nothing in common anymore… and they just don’t think they can be part of the same place anymore.” (43:09)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Malcolm Gladwell on NYC’s reputation:
  • “[In the late 1980s] New York was a place that you… left. You didn’t voluntarily go there.” (12:00)
• David Dinkins’ inclusive vision:
  • “I see New York as a gorgeous mosaic… I intend to be the mayor of all the people of New York. From City Island to Staten Island.” (17:37)
• Marcia Smith on Staten Island’s secession motive:
  • “They don’t want to be governed by a black mayor.” (19:07)
• Guy Molinari’s jab at Dinkins:
  • “The mayor is not vested with the responsibility of giving religious comfort to the family of somebody killed who’s a drug dealer. I think that that was very badly played.” (27:47)
• Susan Molinari’s garbage dump lock gag:
  • “It’s my great pleasure, in Staten Island’s own way, to present you with an unofficial lock to the garbage dump.” (34:43)
• Dinkins’ assertion:
  • “Y’ all ain’t going nowhere.” (38:37)
• On the enduring legacy:
  • “Did you think of it when January 6th happened?” —Ben Nadifafrey
  • “Absolutely. There was much chatter among the Dinkins alumni about the parallel.” —Marcia Smith (45:00)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Introduction to the Series and Theme: 03:13 – 06:16
• Staten Island as Outcast: 06:16 – 09:34
• The NYC of the 1990s: Dinkins & Mosaic Politics: 11:53 – 18:16
• Secession Talk and Racial Undertones: 19:07 – 20:38
• Washington Heights Shooting, Police Tensions: 24:03 – 29:09
• Guy Molinari’s Role, Political Antagonism: 27:58 – 30:27
• Dinkins’ Staten Island Visit Begins: 33:06 – 35:25
• Public Humiliation and Hostility: 34:43 – 39:12
• Dinkins Visits Fresh Kills, Media Perception: 41:26 – 43:09
• Summary, Relevance to Modern America: 43:09 – 44:24
• Preview of Next Episode and Closing Thoughts: 44:24 – End

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Episode Flow & Tone

The tone is both sharp and poignant, mixing biting NYC political humor with reflections on race, identity, and the tensions underlying American civic life. Ben Nadifafrey, through archival tape and interviews, gives Staten Island’s “problem” both an immediate local flavor and stakes that resonate far beyond New York.

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Summary

“Staten Island v. New York City” brilliantly sets up the story of a borough desperate to bolt from its city, the political and personal battles that define this crisis, and the dilemmas—of trust, identity, and democracy—that animate American life. The episode is essential listening for understanding the roots of division in New York—and the country.

Transcript

[Ben Nadifafrey]

This is an iHeart podcast, Guaranteed Human

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[Malcolm Gladwell]

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[Ben Nadifafrey]

Pushkin hey listeners, Ben natafaffer here. I'm bringing you an episode from my new series of Revisionist the Staten Island Problem. It's a deep dive into an overlooked and misunderstood moment from 30 years ago, when New York City almost tore itself apart. And I think it anticipated everything about how our country is tearing itself apart right now. This summer, we're celebrating our 250th birthday as a country. It's the anniversary of an act of secession. This is who we are. This is what we do. So it's time to ask a big how do you solve the Staten island problem? I hope you enjoy the episode, and if you do, you'll find the rest of Revisionist the Staten Island Problem. Wherever you listen to your podcasts, Pushkin plus subscribers can hear each episode early and ad free. Sign up and save on the Revisionist History show page on Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin FM. Plus use the code RH25 for 25% off an annual subscription. Thanks for listening.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

A while back, my colleague Benadaf Haffrey came to me with a story about a strange little island that no outsider ever visits. Forgotten, overlooked, reached by boat across an expanse of turbulent water where the locals practice their own unique customs, engage in their own strange variety of politics, and where, incredibly, everything that is happening currently in America already happened long ago. Staten island. And so today we bring you a new series, the Staten Island Problem. In it, Ben is going to take us back in time to the 1990s, when a young real estate scion named Donald Trump was chasing models in downtown nightclubs, when the subways were covered in graffiti, and when the homicide epidemic was at its peak and Staten island decided, Enough already. Ben will share what he's discovered deep in the distant corners of New York's archives and tell the story of a civil war within the five boroughs, a secessionist movement, the rise of Rudy Giuliani, the Wu Tang Clan, and ultimately, a parable for what we're all living through right now, how a country that Thought it was united, comes apart. What was it Ernest Hemingway once said of bankruptcy? It happens two ways. Gradually and then suddenly. I promise you that at every turn in this bizarre story, you will say to yourself, I didn't know that. And then, oh, that's how we got to where we are today. This is the first of what will be five episodes. You can expect new ones in your feed every week, or you can subscribe to Pushkin plus and binge the whole series right now over to Ben.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

Let me say up top that I am not from Staten island, though many people I spoke to for this series seem to think I am. I'm from Boston, but when I was a kid, I used to dream about moving to New York. I used to watch Fantasia 2000 all the time. Well, actually, just this one sequence about New York City set to George Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue. It opens as the clarinet plays that iconic doo doo doo doo doo doo. And a pencil draws in the skyline of New York City. The whole thing is just romantic and idealized and hyperkinetic. I fell in love with the idea of this place. I used to draw that skyline. I used to ride my bike around with a tape player, bungeed to the rack, listening to Gershwin, thinking about my first apartment, where I'd live, what I'd do. Who cares that the cartoon was set in the Great Depression? I was a total doofus. But in all my reveries, I never thought about the most remote part of New York. Staten Island. New York is made up of five boroughs, each of which is like its own little queens. The Bronx, Manhattan, Brooklyn, where I live now. And then the farthest away and smallest, at least by population, Staten Island. And as I've come to learn, Staten island is a kind of uncomfortable fact of New York City. It's the butt of the joke always. I mean, listen to this recent mayoral debate. I'll start with you, Ms. Adams. Which borough have you spent the least

[Interviewer/Reporter]

amount of time in? Staten Island.

[ChatGPT for Business Announcer]

Sorry.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

I would say Staten Island, Mr. Lander.

[ChatGPT for Business Announcer]

Staten Island, Mr. Mamdani.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

Uh oh.

[Guy Molinari]

The beacon of free transit.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

Staten Island, Mr. Myrie.

[Guy Molinari]

I'd say Staten Island.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

Mr. Stringer.

[David Dinkins]

I've been doing this. I've been everywhere, Mr. Tilson.

[Marcia Smith]

It was almost a sweep.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

I learned about Staten island after I first moved to New York City. That summer. Some friends invited me to a Staten Island Yankees game, their old minor league baseball team. When I looked up how to get there, I learned that I would have to take a subway to a ferry, a literal ship. I got on board There was a bar, huge windows, a 25, 30 minute ride where you see the Statue of Liberty out the right side, and then you just keep going. The New York City skyline recedes into the distance, and then you land in a place that just is not New York City. New York City is all shoebox apartments. Staten island is single family homes. New York City is liberal. Staten island is conservative. New York City at large is mostly people of color. Staten island is mostly white. New York City is defined by its subway. Staten island has a single dinky railway. And everyone drives a car anyways. New York are words that convey prestige and power the world over. The center of finance, the center of media, the largest city in the country, the kind of place George Gershwin rhapsodizes. Meanwhile, a member of the College of Staten island board of Trustees told me he once suggested they drop Staten island from the name of the college because it made people take it less seriously. Once Staten island was supposed to get the world's largest Ferris wheel, it did not. It was supposed to get connected to New York's subway once they broke ground on a tunnel. And that was the end of it. For all these reasons, and more than Staten island calls itself the forgotten borough, the least beloved, the most ignored. It was once the place where New York City put most of its trash, literally the largest landfill on the planet. But starting in the late 1980s, Staten island had decided it didn't want to be dumped on anymore. It didn't want to be forgotten anymore. So it began a movement to secede from New York City, leave, do its own thing, become an entirely different place. Something that, if it happened, threatened to destroy New York. So why am I telling you this? Because it all seems so familiar to me. Every political arrangement includes some disgruntled minority, someone or some place that feels left out, forgotten, like they don't matter. I think that problem is at the very heart of what's going on in our country today. So I began to investigate the Staten island problem. You're listening to Revisionist History. I'm Ben Nadifafry, and this is our series about an overlooked and misunderstood movement in the 1990s to break up the largest and greatest city in the country. This summer, the United States is celebrating the anniversary of its founding by an act of secession, a quibble over taxes and representation that defied an empire and created a country which has altered the course of human history. All of which is to say, I think it's the right time to ask, what do you do when that democracy looks like it's about to fall apart. This is the Staten island problem. Episode one the Mayor versus the Borough President. To start, I've got to take you back in time to the New York City of long ago.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

When I moved here for the Washington Post, I got hardship pay.

[Richard Emery]

Really?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

Like it was compared to Washington D.C. yes.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I got a special cost of living allowance which was essentially like take a cab. Compensation for the fact I was going to a hellhole.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

Local reporter Malcolm Gladwell was on the scene in that era.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I was at the Washington Post and I'd been there since 86, 87. And the new York bureau had an opening. The bureau chief was leaving and I applied. As it turns out, I was the only person who applied.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

How many people worked at the Washington Post?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Like probably a thousand reporters. Nobody wanted the job.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

The only person who wanted to be the bureau chief of New York City,

[Malcolm Gladwell]

nobody but me wanted the job. It was the sweetest setup in the world. You had like, you know, a credit card. You could put anything you wanted on it. You had like an assistant. You had a lovely office in the Newsweek building. I don't know why, but I was

[Ben Nadifafrey]

like, I want that job.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Such a good job. So much fun. But no, the perception was, why would anyone want to go to New York? New York was a place that you, that you left. You didn't, you didn't voluntarily voluntarily go there.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

This was the version of New York that a man named David Dinkins was going to run as mayor.

[Marcia Smith]

He was by temperament a conciliator, a pleaser, a guy who wanted to make peace among different constituencies and kind of represented in his body and his posture and his affect, a kind of. He really did appeal to people's better angels. He really was that.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

Marcia Smith was a high ranking official in the Dinkins administration. She'd first started working with him back when he was campaigning for Manhattan borough president. The borough president is like the mayor of each borough.

[Marcia Smith]

As it happened, the whole policy unit in the borough president's office was all women. He used to call us cupcakes.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

She'd watched his rise to become the first black mayor of the city in 1989, the election of David Dinkins.

[Marcia Smith]

Remember, this was on the heels of black mayors being elected in other major cities. But this was like New York was like last. But it was a very optimistic moment. This was a big moment. I felt it was very hopeful. I could also feel, of course, the skepticism that felt like there was a

[Ben Nadifafrey]

lot at stake, a lot of eyes on you guys.

[Marcia Smith]

A lot of eyes.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

But contrary to most people who become mayor, Dinkins hadn't really wanted the job,

[Malcolm Gladwell]

and

[Ben Nadifafrey]

he shied away from the idea of running for mayor. And he was convinced to run for mayor. Ruth messenger became Manhattan borough president after Dinkins. Around the same time, the city became majority minority. More people of color than white people. Those demographics were why people thought Dinkins should run. But here's a black borough president with some knowledge of state government and city government for sure. Perfect candidate for mayor. And I promise you that he was pushed to make that decision. Dinkins was a lifelong New Yorker. He grew up shuttling between his mom's place in the city and his dad's in New Jersey. His parents had split when he was young. His father was a barber, his mom was a maid. When he grew up, he went to college at Howard University and met his wife. Her father was Harlem political royalty, and that set the course of Dinkins life. Dinkins died in 2020. So I spent a lot of time talking to people about him, and everybody had a Dinkins story, most of them about how fastidious he was. He would shower multiple times a day. He was often in tennis whites. A lawyer named Richard Emery remembered going to his office to ask him questions for an affidavit in a case. Once they were in the bowels of the municipal building, and all of a

[Richard Emery]

sudden, David Dinkins gets up from behind the desk and he takes his pants off. I think his jacket was still on, and he had garters and boxer trousers. And I wanted to ask him, what are you doing? And he puts them up like this, holds them with one hand and takes a step steamer and starts to steam the pants so that the crease is really nice. And he stands there and he's answering my questions and he's steaming his pants.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

Dinkins didn't like a crease out of order. I have to imagine that's part of why being the mayor of Chaos City was not necessarily his dream job. When Dinkins was elected, his dad told the press, I wouldn't want the job for a billion dollars. But Dinkins knew this was his chance to make history, and he did.

[David Dinkins]

I stand here before you today as the elected leader of the greatest city of a great nation to which my ancestors were brought chained and whipped in the hold of a slave ship.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

In January of 1990, David Dinkins took the oath of office on the steps of City Hall.

[David Dinkins]

And this year, this city has given powerful proof of the proposition that all of us are created equal.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

Dinkins had a vision of what the city could Be.

[David Dinkins]

I see New York as a gorgeous mosaic of race and religious faith, of national origin and sexual orientation of individuals whose families arrived yesterday and generations ago, coming through Ellis island or Kennedy Airport or on buses bound for the Port Authority. In that spirit, I offer this fundamental pledge. I intend to be the mayor of all the people of New York. From City island to Staten Island, New

[Ben Nadifafrey]

York City has always been deeply segregated into ethnic enclaves. The Dominicans of Washington Heights, black people in Central Harlem, Italians and Jews in Canarsie. The mosaic was Dinkins way of reconciling those facts. It was his way of saying that diversity is not a problem, it's an asset. But if you cleared away the buildings he faced as he spoke, he would have been looking straight at the piece of the mosaic that had recently decided it no longer fit Staten Island. After Dinkins was elected, Staten island had pushed forward its bill to secede from New York City. It had been in the works for years at that point, but it's hard to imagine Dinkins didn't take it personally. His colleague Marsha Smith thought that for Staten island, this was all about Dinkins.

[Marcia Smith]

Oh, my God, what are they thinking? And, well, of course, they're thinking that, because they don't want to be governed by a black mayor.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

So it immediately seemed racially tinged to you?

[Marcia Smith]

Absolutely.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

Dinkins knew Staten island was threatening the secede, but he didn't know how seriously to take it. Then one day, his finance commissioner began looking into the matter and determined this was a bigger deal than anyone realized. The administration looked into it. If Staten island seceded, New York could be in a financial crisis. The city would lose almost 20% of its land, including, crucially, its last operational dump. With a smaller population, it would get way less in federal and state aid. It would lose possibly the thousands of government workers who lived on Staten island, including thousands of police officers in the middle of a crime wave. And it could leave the first black mayor with the legacy of presiding over the city's destruction. Could Dinkins keep the biggest, most fractious city in the country from breaking apart? He had to scare Staten island out of doing it. So the city launched a task force, and Dinkins decided that he personally would set sail for the island to argue the case himself. We'll be right back.

[ChatGPT for Business Announcer]

Quick one, before you jump back in, you're listening for ways to help teams move faster, make sharper decisions, and turn scattered context into work. They can use ChatGPT for business can help. ChatGPT for business gives teams a shared workspace with admin controls, permissions and access to work and codecs and ChatGPT. This means your business can move from question to answer and code to rollout quicker. Join over 10 million business and enterprise users worldwide already using ChatGPT for work. Download the ChatGPT desktop app or contact sales to learn more.

[J.R. Martinez]

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[Navy Federal Credit Union Announcer]

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[Malcolm Gladwell]

This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. There's something interesting about how seamlessly certain tools fit into daily life. Apple Card is one of those things it can be applied for right in the wallet app on iPhone and approval can happen in minutes, so it's ready to use immediately with Apple Pay. I'm so glad the days of finding my wallet, fishing out the credit card, using it, putting it back in my wallet, or oops, maybe I use cash. Where's the atm? Enough. The first time I used Apple Pay on my phone with my Apple Card I was like this is the future. There's no going back. With Apple Card purchases earn daily cash up to 3% with no points to track and no waiting for rewards. It's simply daily cash back that I earn on every purchase. There's even an option to open a high yield savings account through Apple Card and while I haven't done it yet, if I do, my daily cash can grow automatically over time without any extra effort. Because Apple Card lives in the wallet app, it's always accessible on iPhone and can be used with Apple Pay at over 85% of merchants in the US and the security of Face ID and Touch ID prevents unauthorized purchases. Whether using iPhone or Apple Watch to explore it yourself, you can apply for Apple Card in the Wallet app on your iPhone subject to credit approval. Savings is available to Apple Card owners subject to eligibility. Savings in Apple Card by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch Member FDIC terms and [e-mail].

[Ben Nadifafrey]

One night a few weeks before David Dinkins went to Staten Island, a police officer named Michael o' Keefe was patrolling the Manhattan neighborhood of Washington Heights in an unmarked car. He saw a young man tugging a jacket around his waist. It was July, not jacket weather. He thought he was probably hiding a weapon. O' Keefe pulled over. The kid was a suspected drug dealer named Kiko Garcia. O' Keefe got out and tried to arrest him. Garcia resisted. What happened next was fast and unclear, but it was a warm evening and there were witnesses on the street. They said they saw the cop beat Garcia with a walkie talkie, take out his knees and shove him into the lobby of an apartment building. They said they heard him screaming mama, Mama, they are killing me in Spanish. Then two shots. When more police arrived, they found o' Keefe standing over Garcia, dead. A bullet in the stomach, one in the back. That night the riots began. M80s bottles and bricks are being thrown.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

Several cars have been set on fire.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

Some of their occupants have been thrown from the cars. The building across from the shooting burned. There was fire everywhere. Holy shoot.

[Marcia Smith]

Watch on shoot.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

A police helicopter hovered overhead. Someone shot at it in the lobby of the apartment building where Garcia was killed. Someone used his blood to write Kiko, we love you on the wall. One man threw a bottle at some cops, then ran away across the rooftops. When they chased him, he fell five stories to his death. Protesters burned pictures of the police.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

Police officers watching their image burn, didn't want to talk on camera, but told me later they thought it was disgusting and were frustrated by orders not to interfere with a demonstration.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

People listening in on police radio said they heard cops joking that if they saw Al Sharpton protesting, they should shoot him. Phil Caruso, head of the police union, took to the news.

[David Dinkins]

Of course we don't approve of it, we don't condone it, but it's something that is sort of a reaction on the part of police officers under a lot of stress. I think what we should do is start focusing on the so called victim in this case was a known drug dealer who was wanted under a Warrant because he violated his parole.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

So, yes, the cops were annoyed with the protesters, but they seemed even more annoyed with the mayor.

[David Dinkins]

I came to pay my respects and offer my condolences to the family and to assure them that everything that can be done will be done. Thoroughly investigate the circumstances of this death.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

From the start, Dinkins seemed suspicious about what had happened. He met with Garcia's family and consoled them. He invited them to Gracie Mansion. He paid for Garcia's body to be shipped back to the Dominican Republic for a funeral. He walked the streets of Washington Heights and met with people. He told them, I promise you justice. I beg you for peace.

[David Dinkins]

I used to live up here. I love to come to this neighborhood.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

The cops felt Dinkins had sold them out, that he'd sided with the family of a drug dealer and someone important. Agreed.

[Guy Molinari]

And my God, if you're gonna pay for that funeral. There's thousands and thousands of funerals not paid for in our city today. That would be more justification for than

[Ben Nadifafrey]

that one borough president of Staten island, guy Molinari.

[Guy Molinari]

The mayor is not vested with the responsibility of giving religious comfort to the family of somebody killed who's a drug dealer. I think that that was very badly played.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

And I think Molinari had got his start as a real estate lawyer on Staten Island. Then he got into politics and realized he was really good at it. He used to just open up the phone book and call random people on Staten island to talk. He was beloved, polarizing, and extremely old school. This is him talking to a WNYC reporter defending himself the time he said a lesbian shouldn't be Attorney General of New York.

[Guy Molinari]

Not one editorial ever took her to task for her going out and asking for votes because she was a lesbian. Not a single one.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

Do you think there's a difference between that and say you are having a fundraiser with with group of Italian Americans?

[David Dinkins]

Sure.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

People feeling ethnic?

[Guy Molinari]

Sure. What's the Italian American agenda? She had a gay and lesbian agenda.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

Molinari's philosophy was that the only rules in politics are what the voters think. And his borough was full of people who did not think much of New York City. Staten island was essentially the last outpost for people who would like to leave the city or but couldn't because they worked for the city and therefore had to live within its boundaries. There were a lot of police officers on the island to the point where when I bought a used copy of Molinari's memoir on ebay, it showed up with the inscription blue lives always matter. To put it mildly. This was not Mayor Dinkins crowd In the weeks after Garcia was killed, it was Molinari who took a stand against Dinkins and how he handled everything. He wrote the police precinct in Washington Heights that I know that your morale has taken quite a beating in recent weeks and the actions of Mayor Dinkins have undoubtedly contributed to your present feelings. However, I did want you to know that there are some of us in government who hold you in the highest esteem. Dinkins learned about the letter just before his trip to Staten Island. He was furious. Molinari said that Dinkins leaked it to

[Guy Molinari]

the press and my letter never would have been made public except that he chose to make it public. So if you made it public, then how can you make the accusation that I'm trying to stir things up and make it listen in our city? I'm not. I didn't want to be standing before all of you talking about this issue. It was just a private letter I sent to the men and women at the precinct who needed a lift from somebody in gun government. Nobody else was doing it.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

But at that point, Dinkins couldn't call the trip off. So one hot summer morning, David Dinkins finally got on a ship and set sail for Staten Island. We'll be right back.

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[Malcolm Gladwell]

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[Ben Nadifafrey]

the Mayor boarded a ferry in lower Manhattan and charted a course a half hour out to sea until it reached Staten Island. Dinkins got off the boat and made his way to Borough Hall. A small crowd awaited him and I

[Interviewer/Reporter]

would like to greet you all this morning to mark Mayor Dinkins week long visit here on Staten Island.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

A camera crew followed Dinkins on his week out on the island. The tapes are in the city archive and they are kind of amazing. You see Dinkins in a baby blue suit on the steps of Staten Island Borough Hall. Then a short man with big glasses and white hair steps in front of him. Staten Island's Borough President, Guy Molinari, Mayor

[Guy Molinari]

Dinkins, distinguished guests and fellow Staten Islanders, good morning. Today I'd like to speak to you all about the borough I have represented in elective office for 17 years. Whatever the problems have been the last few days, I'm going to forget them and hope they didn't exist. And I think the Mayor and I, whatever our differences are, we've differed before, just as I have with the Mayor before him and the Mayor before him. But yeah, well, when you represent Staten island it goes with the terrified thing to a certain extent. But we'll try to put those differences aside at least I will. I'll speak only for myself.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

It was a hot day. The Mayor stood in full sun behind the borough president, looking deeply displeased as he wiped sweat from his brow. Then Molinari's daughter, Susan, congresswoman for Staten island, took the mic.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

Well I know it. Excuse me. It's customary during most trips when you have special guests coming to either the city or the island. I'm sure you've done it. You give them a special key to the city. Well today it's my great pleasure, in Staten Island's own way, to present you with an unofficial lock to the garbage dump.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

She and her dad held up a gigantic sign that said Molinarie landfill lock. Dinkins did not look happy. Minutes in, it was clear that this would be a very trying week for David Dinkins. He took the lectern.

[Guy Molinari]

Let me.

[David Dinkins]

Let me just say a word about Guy Molinari. He knew. He knew I was going to be here today, just like I knew that he would be here to greet me about. There was no doubt about that.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

Both Dinkins and Molinari were ex marines, but only Molinari had seen combat. What Dinkins got from the Marines was a love of rules and decorum. He was proper and patrician. What Molinari got from the Marines was a killer instinct. He was a street fighter. The very public feud between the two of them was making it hard for Dinkins to focus on the task at hand. The letter kept coming up.

[David Dinkins]

I hope that that's the last time I will address this subject for now, because what I want to do is get about the business of government here on Staten Island.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

Dinkins tries to reset to his real purpose, stop secession.

[David Dinkins]

I was asked, well, what do you hope to accomplish here on Staten Island? I said, if nothing else, if nothing else, I hope that I can convey to the people of Staten island that I deeply care about them and about all of them. If this were a political visit, why in blazes would I come? I mean, I know the number of votes that were cast for me in 1989. So I'm not here for political reason. If I were to come for a political reason, might I not then reason? I'll come to Staten island for two days? Because you have less than 500,000 people and they got two and a half million people in Brooklyn. Why not go to Brooklyn for eight or nine days and come here for two days? But I'm here for seven days.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

At this one imagines his knees buckle. Seven days.

[Guy Molinari]

Not just Monday to Friday, not simply

[David Dinkins]

Monday to Friday, Monday through Sunday. So I don't care whether you agree with me on all issues or not. If you are reasonable people, you have to say to yourselves, well, by God, he does care.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

Seeming more than a little pissed off, he began his pitch for the City of the Mosaic.

[David Dinkins]

But you know, the glory of Staten island does not in any way confine itself to the past. In fact, the island of the Seven Hills may well have been the first part of New York that European explorers cited.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

Dinkins has clearly had his speechwriters Dig deep for some nice things to say about Staten Island.

[David Dinkins]

The Staten island ferry, the oldest surviving free black settlement in the United States. The only zoo in America, incidentally to exhibit all 32 species of rattlesnakes.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

Pouring sweat from his brow, David Dinkins limped to his finish a line about how Staten island maybe was the first place his favorite sport took. Tennis was played in America.

[David Dinkins]

So thank you Staten island. You have given me that.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

Finally he addresses the elephant in the room.

[David Dinkins]

And I hope that, that I will be able to persuade the people of Staten island that this government, and I am the representative of this government, that this government does care about state Staten Island. I'll be speaking to this question of secession. But just, just so to give you some advance notice, y' all ain't going nowhere.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

He was right and he was wrong all at the same time.

[David Dinkins]

God bless you. Keep the faith.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

And with that, the mayor's seven day visit to the forgotten borough began. Borough president Guy Molinari had Mayor Dinkins trapped on Staten island for an entire week. He could control the narrative about many things in that time, the dump with that lock gambit, but even more urgently, the increasingly tense relationship between Dinkins and the cops. After Washington Heights, he. Here's a reporter asking Molinari about all that.

[David Dinkins]

You think he shouldn't have paid the murder?

[Guy Molinari]

No, absolutely not. Absolutely not. I mean that I think is. I totally disagree with that. I think as the weeks go by and the days go by, you'll see the reaction of the police community and I think you'll find out that I was right.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

In case you're wondering why the borough president of Staten island was even talking about Washington Heights, according to Molinari, a

[Guy Molinari]

lot of the drugs that are sold in Washington Heights wind up in this barrack.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

Dinkins toured the island all week. He kept trying to reach higher only to be dragged down by reality. He gave speeches invoking the civil war. He quoted Lincoln comparing Staten island to the south seceding. He made his secession undermined the very principle of democracy. We're supposed to be able to argue about things and come to a compromise. You can't just leave when you don't like something. But Staten Islanders were having none of it.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

My question is why you allow one deputy mayor to direct you down a path of destruction?

[David Dinkins]

Who is that Deputy mayor?

[Ben Nadifafrey]

Here he is at the local newspaper's editorial luncheon staring down at his plate, trying to eat. I have to say he looks totally miserable. The path of destruction this woman's asking him about is a reference to the dump and how his administration had no real plans to close it.

[David Dinkins]

You can continue in a minute, but let's just interrupt the flow. Just to sit here and listen to you give some conclusions that are really not accurate is a little painful. I'm here because I care and I represent all of the people. We have a very difficult and knotty problem with respect to the disposal of solid waste, and experts do not all agree about it.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

Dinkins was in an unwinnable situation, being accosted while he ate his lunch, standing in the sun all around the island, being blasted with unpleasant questions as he sweat like crazy.

[David Dinkins]

The main thing is getting out of the sun. Boy, I cannot understand. You know, there's space inside where this could have been right in the. You know, in the corridor.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

His week there was building to a climax when Dinkins would finally visit the infamous dump Fresh Kills, the largest landfill in the world, which, yes, smelled terrible, but also seemed possibly to be highly toxic. This was the kind of place the fastidious David Dinkins really did not want to be. So when he took his tour by car and then gave a press conference, it did not go over well.

[Guy Molinari]

You looked like you were going to get out and take a walk around some of the landfill area before I looked like it.

[David Dinkins]

What was that, body language or something?

[Guy Molinari]

How did you.

[David Dinkins]

How did you determine it?

[Guy Molinari]

It was our understanding when the motorcade

[David Dinkins]

stopped, take a walking quarrel,

[Ben Nadifafrey]

Molinari roasted Dinkins about it all in the press. Quote, After 40 years of Staten Islanders living near an ever increasingly large dump, David Dinkins spends 40 minutes reviewing his own data and declares it safe. The message was clear. Too clean to walk around trash island, huh?

[Guy Molinari]

Mr. Mayor, I was wondering what it was that it made you change your mind.

[David Dinkins]

What I'm doing is taking me to be briefed by commissioners Lloyd and Jarling, which we have been able to do. And throughout the ride, I was getting briefed as we were riding.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

The week soon ended, and Dinkins went back to Manhattan, seeming to have made matters worse. And what would soon become clear is that Molinari had much bigger plans. Not for Staten island to leave the city, but for Staten island to take it over entirely. When I started reporting this series, a historian told me, America happens first in New York City. And now that I spent way too long learning about a borough that did its best to leave that city, I have to say I agree. This is a story about what happens when neighbors feel like they have nothing in common anymore, when they have these irreconcilable differences and they just don't think they can be part of the same place anymore. Back in the 1990s, a chess game was being played for, yes, the fate of the largest city in America. But I think the stakes of it are much higher because the more I looked into the story of Staten island secession and where that split came from, the more I understood how we got to where we are today. Coming up on the Staten island problem,

[Guy Molinari]

who will you trust? Your friends and neighbors and the people in Staten island, or will you trust the people five miles overseas?

[Richard Emery]

You know, there's a lot of Donald Trump in the Guy Mount Airy style of politics. They're very dominating and they're intolerant of people who disagree with them. Absolutely intolerant.

[David Dinkins]

For Rudy Giuliani to urge them on, as it were, demonstrates an irresponsibility on his behalf.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

Can't you just deal with the secession

[Malcolm Gladwell]

thing when you're at these debates?

[Ben Nadifafrey]

You gotta turn a wedding into a secession debate. Did you think of it when January 6th happened?

[Marcia Smith]

Absolutely. There was much chatter among the Dinkins alumni about the parallel.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

We've seen this before.

[Marcia Smith]

Yeah.

[Ben Nadifafrey]

The Staten Island Problem is written and reported by me, Ben Nadifaffrey. It was produced by Lucy Sullivan with Nina Verde Lawrence. Our editor is Karen Shakurji. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. Fact checking by Sam Russik. Sound design and mastering by Jake Gorski. Original music by Stellwagen Symphonette, Luis Guerra and Jake Gorski. Special thanks to Todd Reynolds for his track the Solution from the album Outer Borough and to the college of Staten island and the New York City municipal archives for all of the amazing tape. And thanks, of course, to Malcolm Gladwell. I'm Ben Adifafry.

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[J.R. Martinez]

Hey, this is J.R. martinez, host of Medal of Honor Stories of courage. Navy Federal Credit Union is celebrating America's 250th anniversary with exclusive $250 offers for new members. After being approved for membership online, select a special cash rewards offer and earn a $50 bonus when you open a cash rewards credit card plus an additional $250 when you spend $2,500 within 90 days of opening. And you can get another $250 when you refinance your auto loan from another lender. Learn more and join today@navy federal.org America

[Navy Federal Credit Union Announcer]

250 offer ends July 31, 2026. Excludes cash rewards, secure credit cards and applications submitted by mail, telephone or in person. Refinance auto loan must be at least $5,000 credit and collateral subject to approval. Additional terms and conditions apply for bonus offers subject to change or end at any time.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

This is Malcolm Gladwell from Revisionist History. Life moves fast at American Military University. They're ready to help you keep up. AMU's flexible, affordable online programs in cybersecurity, IT, space studies and more are designed for service members, veterans and their families. AMU provides the support you need to take the next step wherever life takes you. American Military University Made for what's next. Learn more at amuapusam.edu this is an iHeart podcast.

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