Live: Michael Lewis and Maya Shankar on "The Other Side of Change" - Against the Rules: The Big Short Companion

Transcript

Maya Shankar (0:00)

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Michael Lewis (1:42)

Pushkin.

Maya Shankar (1:57)

Hey everyone, it's me, Maya. I recently had the pleasure of launching my new book, the Other side of Change with literary royalty Michael Lewis. Michael, it seems, knows only how to write bestsellers that also tend to get turned into big budget movies like Moneyball, the Big Short and the Blindside. He's a star through and through. Needless to say, I was honored that he wanted to host this conversation. I've known Michael for over a decade and so when we took our seats in front of a live audience in San Francisco, we immediately defaulted to our normal state when hanging out, ribbing one another, joking and also going deep. The conversation you're about to hear is one of my favorites from my book tour. We talked about my experience writing the Other side of Change starting this podcast, and how we think about navigating life's hardest moments. I hope you enjoy it.

Summary

Against the Rules: The Big Short Companion

Special Episode: Live – Michael Lewis and Maya Shankar on "The Other Side of Change"

January 27, 2026 • Pushkin Industries

Overview

This live episode brings together celebrated author Michael Lewis and cognitive scientist/podcast host Maya Shankar for a candid, humorous, and deeply insightful conversation marking the launch of Maya’s new book, The Other Side of Change. Set before a lively San Francisco audience, the discussion delves into the psychology of personal change, resilience, identity, and the universal experiences underlying seismic life transitions. Blending personal memoir, cognitive science, and stories from Maya's book, the duo explore how we navigate unexpected redirects in life, the legacy of change, and why storytelling still matters in making sense of chaotic times.

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins: Maya’s Fascination with Change

Timestamp: 04:16 – 13:00

Personal Loss as Catalyst
- Maya recalls losing her dream of becoming a concert violinist at 15 due to a hand injury:
  “I felt like I was grieving. The loss of the instrument, sure. But more importantly, the loss of myself in this more fundamental way. … I was bullied in school and violin and that whole community was a refuge for me.” (06:03)
- Her father’s advice led her to explore new interests without a strict goal, eventually discovering cognitive science.
Life-Altering Fertility Struggles
- At the start of 2020, Maya faced the loss of a pregnancy with her surrogate, igniting questions about identity and control:
  “The universe is totally indifferent towards the depth of my desire for this outcome. … I really struggled with this feeling of contending with the true limits of my control. That was very hard for me psychologically.” (12:13)
Genesis of the Podcast “A Slight Change of Plans”
- While brainstorming with friends (and after some initial false starts), Maya realized stories of dramatic personal change with high stakes felt more compelling than stories about career shifts.
- Notable anecdote: Her first “test episode” interviewing her husband Jimmy was panned by a friend as “boring,” teaching Maya that stories need high stakes to truly resonate.
  “My friend Aggie… said, girl, I really love you and Jimmy, and this is so boring. This is a terrible podcast.” (14:08)

2. From Podcast to Book: Finding the Universal in Personal Stories

Timestamp: 15:09 – 22:51

Why Write a Book?
- Maya was hesitant, echoing advice from behavioral economist Richard Thaler: “Don’t write a book!” Ultimately, she was inspired to explore patterns across diverse change stories for a broader synthesis only a book could allow.
Core Finding:
- The most resonant insights weren’t about what happened to people, but about shared psychological responses to change (loss, grief, loss of identity, sense of unfairness, etc.).
- “People going through wildly different changes… have so much more in common when it comes to both the problem statement and the solution set.” (18:44)
- The book aggregates these lessons across disparate lives—from cancer patients to those facing betrayal, loss, or illness—to offer universal strategies for navigating upheaval.

3. Case Profiles: Lessons from Extreme Change

a. Olivia – Locked-In Syndrome

Timestamp: 23:17 – 29:25

Olivia, a young woman in her 20s, suffers a catastrophic brainstem stroke, resulting in Locked-In Syndrome (total paralysis except eye movement).
The real trauma was not the physical loss, but being “locked out” of managing her image for others—especially her boyfriend’s family.
- “The gravity of my situation did not sink in until my boyfriend’s family came to visit ... that’s when I fully appreciated that I was locked in.” (26:41)
Universal lesson: Even at the edge of physical catastrophe, old habits—like people-pleasing—linger, and true growth sometimes means learning internal acceptance, not just overcoming external hardship.

b. Ingrid – Amnesia and the Blank Slate

Timestamp: 29:27 – 35:37

Ingrid, raised in Colombia, is taught to hide her Indigenous roots; after a biking accident, she loses her autobiographical memory (retrograde amnesia).
Strikingly, she feels euphoric—unburdened by her past—and, as memories return out of order, falls in love with her family’s heritage anew.
- “There’s something very curious about the way her memories come back... She is so enchanted by these stories.” (32:00)
Her story illustrates the liberating potential of change to help us reconsider (and revise) core personal beliefs we might not even realize are optional.
- “We should not hold our beliefs as these sacred, immutable truths... Change can wipe the slate down clean and give you a chance to ask yourself: Is this a belief that I should carry?” (34:10)

c. Skipped for Brevity—Dwayne

(Mentioned, but discussion focused on Olivia and Ingrid.)

4. Change as Identity Shift, Not Just Event

Timestamp: 22:52 – 23:13 / 36:32 – 37:29

The “real stakes” in change aren’t always in the losses or gains, but in the threats to (and transformation of) identity.
- “It occurred to me… (the) show is about change, but it’s actually a show about identity, because every story actually is about how people felt that their fundamental sense of self was threatened as a result of the change they went through.” (22:52)
Maya notes people often mispredict how change will feel, because we ignore that our selves will change too (“end of history illusion”).

5. Applying Social Science: From Story to Strategy

Timestamp: 36:28 – 37:29

Maya’s background in cognitive science allowed her to not only collect stories but translate them into psychologically grounded, actionable insights.
- Naming concepts (“affect labeling,” “identity foreclosure”) helps readers recognize their own experiences.
- Prescribes strategies for “pressure testing” personal narratives and beliefs for their durability and flexibility.
- “Giving names to concepts is very helpful for readers... and research on changing minds is where I was able to say, ‘here are strategies you can use to test your own convictions.’” (36:44)

6. Audience Q&A—Change, Resilience, and Revising Core Beliefs

Notable Segments: 43:26 – end

On Helping Young People Confront Change in the Age of AI (44:28):
- Maya: “One thing that ... I have tended to do over the course of my life is to over-plan… [but] we are really bad affective forecasters ... and when big changes happen to us, they also lead to lasting change within us. ... Having humility about all of it ... is important.” (44:53)
- Michael: “Enroll your kid in improv. ... Once you realize what that muscle [flexibility] is, you can apply it to lots of other things.” (47:36)
On Letting Go of Immutable Beliefs (50:10):
- Maya shares the story of a woman whose deep belief in a just world collapses after a tragic accident, forcing a reckoning with the limits and dangers of rigid values.
- “Imagine that you were born in a different time period… different culture… How would your values be different? And that is just a reminder of the fragility of our belief systems.” (53:03)
On Writing the Book’s Impact on Maya Herself (53:41):
- Maya discusses personally grappling with childlessness after multiple miscarriages, and how gratitude and revisiting her sense of self-worth (beyond motherhood) have been transformative.
  - “I am child free and I am the happiest, calmest, most peaceful, joyful version of myself. And I never saw that coming.” (59:03)
  - “What losing, what the pregnancy losses revealed to me was I had placed so much of my self worth in becoming a mom. ... And yet here I am ... I am so grateful for the personal evolution ... so yeah, that was a wonderful belief to have challenged.” (59:35)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Facing Powerlessness:
“The universe is totally indifferent towards the depth of my desire for this outcome. ... The true limits of my control. That was very hard for me psychologically.”
— Maya Shankar (12:13)
On Unexpected Universality: “The cancer patient had far more in common with a betrayed wife than with another sick person; it’s a shared psychology in the face of change.”
— Maya Shankar (18:44)
On Revising Identity: “Every story actually is about how people felt that their fundamental sense of self ... was threatened as a result of the change.”
— Maya Shankar (22:52)
On Growth Through Hard Times:
“I am child free and I am the happiest, calmest, most peaceful, joyful version of myself. And I never saw that coming ... the gains have continued far beyond when I had to submit this for publication.”
— Maya Shankar (59:03 - 59:35)
On the Fragility of Values:
“Imagine you were born into a different family, a different time… How would your values be different? ... It’s a reminder of the fragility of our belief systems.”
— Maya Shankar (53:03)
Michael Lewis’ Advice for Resilience:
“Enroll your kid in an improv comedy class. Build that muscle and understand what that muscle feels like.”
— Michael Lewis (47:36)

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Description | Timestamp | |---|---|---| | Opening | Maya introduces event, her roots in exploring change | 01:57 – 04:16 | | Loss of Violinist Identity | Early trauma, grieving identity | 05:09 – 07:48 | | Fertility Struggles & Birth of Podcast | Navigating loss, need for new narratives | 13:02 – 15:09 | | Book Rationale & Patterns in Change | Why go beyond the podcast? | 16:16 – 22:03 | | Identity at Center of Change | The ‘real’ trauma of change | 22:52 – 23:13 | | Case Studies: Olivia | Locked-in syndrome & people-pleasing | 23:17 – 29:25 | | Case Studies: Ingrid | Amnesia, heritage, blank slate | 29:27 – 35:37 | | On Social Science & Story | How cognitive science shapes recommendations | 36:28 – 37:29 | | Audience Questions | On AI, parenting, flexibility | 43:26 – 48:41 | | Final Audience Qs | Revising beliefs, personal evolution post-book | 50:10 – 61:00 |

Style, Humor, and Tone

The rapport between Maya and Michael is playful and witty, each ribbing the other while still honoring the depth of the stories.
Michael admits to minimal preparation and plays up his book-selling prowess; Maya self-deprecates about her anxiety, people-pleasing, and sales angst.
Both share vulnerabilities—Maya about loss and growth; Michael about writing about brilliant subjects like Daniel Kahneman.
They often move between light banter (e.g., “You could sell phone book excerpts, Michael!”) and intense, honest reflection.

Takeaways

Change is ever-present, and while the specifics differ, our psychological responses often rhyme—anchored in identity, unpredictability, and the universal human need for meaning.
Openness to revising one’s beliefs, even those foundational to our self-concept, is not just okay, it’s a path to resilience and growth.
Storytelling—in podcasts, books, or conversation—remains essential for collectively making sense of life’s shocks.
The book’s main lesson: strategies rooted in both science and collective wisdom can help anyone build a “survival kit” for whatever change—expected or not—comes next.