Against the Rules: The Big Short Companion
Special Live Episode with Nicolle Wallace
Date: December 16, 2025
Host: Michael Lewis with Lydia Jean Cott
Guest: Nicolle Wallace (MSNBC), Zach Grenier (actor)
Location: Recorded live at Symphony Space, New York
Overview: Marking the Legacy of The Big Short, 15 Years On
This special bonus episode of the Big Short Companion podcast commemorates the 15th anniversary of Michael Lewis’s book The Big Short (and a decade since its Oscar-winning film adaptation). Hosted by Michael Lewis and Lydia Jean Cott, the episode features a lively on-stage conversation with journalist Nicolle Wallace, live readings by actor Zach Grenier, and the presence of real-life characters from the book. The trio reflect on the continuing resonance of the 2008 financial crisis, what The Big Short tried to capture, and how its stories and warnings matter today.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. The Audiobook Revival & Revisiting Old Stories
Timestamp: 04:00 – 07:25
- Michael Lewis describes how the recent resurgence of audiobooks—and the return of audio rights to his earlier works—led him to re-record The Big Short and create a companion podcast.
- “[The] audiobook market is what's changed. It's the biggest change in the way books are consumed in my career.” (05:20, Michael Lewis)
- The new audiobook and podcast revisits the characters, consequences, and aftershocks of the 2008 crisis, including conversations with some “real-life” Big Short players in the audience.
2. Humanizing the Financial Crisis
Timestamp: 07:25 – 08:36; 24:27 – 29:24
- Nicolle Wallace praises Lewis’s gift for telling complex stories through vivid, human characters.
- “There's nothing that you experience on a more human level than the human stories.” (07:30, Nicolle Wallace)
- Lewis teases how the book’s structure and casting of characters provided a way to make the financial crisis accessible and emotionally resonant.
3. Dramatic Reading: The Collapse Unfolds
Timestamp: 08:36 – 20:40
- Actor Zach Grenier delivers a compelling live reading from The Big Short, capturing:
- The panic during the Lehman Brothers collapse
- Personal stress and trauma experienced by real-life protagonists (Danny Moses, Vincent Daniel, Porter Collins)
- The haunting realization of the disconnect between Wall Street disaster and street-level normalcy
- Moments of self-realization and moral reckoning for characters like Steve Eisman and Vincent Daniel.
“I'm thinking we got the world by the fucking balls—and the company we work for is going bankrupt.” (11:15, Zach Grenier as Danny Moses) “It was like feeding the monster, Eisman said. We fed the monster until it blew up. The monster was exploding. Yet on the streets of Manhattan, there was no sign anything important had just happened.” (19:35, Zach Grenier reading Michael Lewis)
4. Why Tell These Stories? The Importance of Character
Timestamp: 24:27 – 32:07
- Lewis reflects on the necessity and difficulty of reporting real human stories in finance, emphasizing that understanding the crisis means understanding its personalities.
- “They get to the right answer because of who they are. ... Their character is organic to the story. It isn't just decoration.” (33:00, Michael Lewis)
- He describes embedding with his subjects, waiting out their self-consciousness until their true selves emerged.
5. How to Make the Complex Simple
Timestamp: 25:15 – 29:24
- Lewis explains the structure of The Big Short: the financial world as a giant bet, with most institutions on the “dumb side” and a few outsiders on the “right side.”
- “There was a beautiful simplicity to the story... you could think of the financial world as a simple bet, a giant bet.” (25:15, Michael Lewis)
- He details how he “cast” the book like assembling a singing group, choosing characters for maximum contrast, depth, and narrative power.
6. Lasting Consequences: Trauma, Politics, and Memory
Timestamp: 29:24 – 32:07, 32:19 – 37:24
- The book was written before the political aftershocks fully took shape; Lewis draws a line from 2008's crisis to the rise of populism and Trump.
- “One of the consequences of that event is Trump, of course. You can draw a line from that to Trump for sure.” (29:56, Michael Lewis)
- He laments that the wisdom and independence that saved the financial system—trust in the Federal Reserve and Treasury—has been eroded, leaving the US less prepared for future crises.
7. The Book vs. The Movie: Tone and Endings
Timestamp: 34:15 – 35:35
- Adam McKay’s film adaptation ends more angrily and editorializes more explicitly than the book, reflecting McKay’s darker worldview.
- “The movie is angrier than the book also because Adam McKay’s anger [is] just naturally more capable of anger than I am. I just look at the world as a comedy.” (35:35, Michael Lewis)
- Lewis reflects on his own approach: focusing on human folly, not venting anger, and wanting to avoid imposing his view on readers.
8. The Allure—and Danger—of Wall Street
Timestamp: 36:28 – 40:59
- Lewis discusses his conflict over how Liar’s Poker inspired the wrong kind of careerists into finance.
- “About the third time [someone told me I inspired them to work on Wall Street], I thought, Jesus Christ, I created this crisis.” (39:22, Michael Lewis)
- He’s troubled that finance remains so attractive to the best and brightest, distracting them from other societal contributions.
9. On Interviewing, Trust, and Intimacy
Timestamp: 43:43 – 45:41
- Nicolle Wallace and Lewis discuss why people talk: the power of being truly listened to, of feeling that their story matters.
- “You listen… She seems to have read the book, which is freakish on television.” (43:57, Michael Lewis, on Wallace)
- Lewis describes the quiet emotional bond built with his sources, and the odd pain of saying goodbye.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On Audiobooks and Revisiting:
“This chance to make free money... but also it's kind of fun to revisit the stories... we're still living in a world that it was sort of describing and it seemed relevant.”
(06:30, Michael Lewis) -
On Reporting Human Stories:
“You can't just... you can't get it wrong. They're real people... It strikes me that The Big Short is a story about what happens when the reporting doesn't happen.”
(24:27, Nicolle Wallace) -
On Character and Story:
“You don't write a book unless you love the story. There's no point. And the people, because you end up loving the characters.”
(32:19, Michael Lewis) -
On Not Moralizing:
“I left these guys exposed. I left it for the reader to decide how you feel about someone getting rich betting on the collapse of the society... The best stories leave a hole for a reader to walk into and exercise their own discretion about what it means.”
(33:00, Michael Lewis) -
On Regret and Irony:
“About the third time [a trader said I inspired their career], I thought, Jesus Christ, I created this crisis...”
(39:22, Michael Lewis) -
On the Power of Listening in Interviews:
“She's actually listening to what I'm saying instead of thinking of the next question. She seems to have read the book, which is freakish on television.”
(43:57, Michael Lewis, praising Nicolle Wallace) -
On the Colonoscopy Story:
“While you were in the procedure, you looked up at him and said, 'When you were a little boy, did you dream that this is what you would be doing with your life? Or did you want to be an astronaut?' And I had to go apologize to him.”
(47:03, Michael Lewis, closing anecdote)
Timestamps for Key Segments
- 03:01 – Podcast proper begins; setup for live episode
- 04:00 – 07:25 – Why revisit The Big Short and the power of audiobooks
- 08:36 – 20:40 – Zach Grenier's dramatic book reading (Lehman collapse, aftermath)
- 24:27 – 32:07 – Deep dive: structure, casting, and the humanity of financial crises
- 29:24 – 37:24 – Long-term political and social consequences
- 34:15 – 35:35 – The difference in tone between book and movie
- 39:22 – Lewis’s ambivalence about inspiring Wall Street careers
- 43:43 – 45:41 – How and why people open up to interviewers
- 47:03 – Michael Lewis’s humorous colonoscopy story
Tone and Style
- Conversational, candid, and witty—especially from Michael Lewis
- Reflective and at times, self-deprecating
- Engaged with the live audience and with each other
- Mix of serious insight and light-hearted banter
Takeaway
This live episode offers a rich, retrospective look at The Big Short, blending dramatic storytelling, industry introspection, and reflections on the human flaws—and virtues—behind the financial crisis. The personal anecdotes, humor, and willingness to leave big questions unanswered make it lively, intimate, and thought-provoking, not just for fans of the book and film, but for anyone reckoning with the legacies of 2008.