Podcast Summary: Against the Rules – The Big Short Companion

Episode: Michael Lewis Interviews His Producer

Date: October 18, 2025
Host: Michael Lewis (with Lydia Jean Cott)
Production: Pushkin Industries

Overview

This special episode spotlights Lydia Jean Cott, Michael Lewis’s producer, and her new investigative podcast, The Chinatown Sting. The episode features a candid conversation in a Brooklyn coffee shop, where Lewis and Cott discuss the origins, challenges, and thematic depths of her series. They explore the intersection of law, personal histories, and community tales tied to an extraordinary 1980s federal criminal case in New York's Chinatown. The episode also includes an extended excerpt from The Chinatown Sting’s first episode, immersing listeners in a suspenseful undercover operation and nuanced social history.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Origin of 'The Chinatown Sting' (03:13)

• Family Connection: Lydia Jean reveals the story springs from a family legend—her partner’s mother, Beryl Howell (a federal judge), prosecuted the case as her first major trial.
• Access and Serendipity: Cott shares the uniqueness of gaining access to a federal judge: "After knowing her for years and years and years, I finally just asked, and she said, sure." (03:44)
• The Hook: The case involved women in 1980s Chinatown, arrested after unknowingly receiving heroin-stuffed packages while playing mahjong.

2. Reporting Challenges & Emotional Stakes (05:36)

• Tracking Down the Past: Lydia Jean describes the difficulty of finding people involved decades later: "Do you realize the chances of me being able to find these people?" (05:46)
• Personal Responsibility: She emphasizes wanting fairness for all, not just legal justice: "I really wanted everyone, you know, they went through the justice system, but I also wanted them to feel like they were treated fairly in the story." (09:05)
• On-the-Ground Reporting: Notably, Cott and her co-reporter knocked on doors in multiple Chinatowns bearing cookies as peace offerings—sometimes with surprising results: "She could be like, get out of here. But instead she was like, how’s Beryl?" (07:54)

3. The Human Perspective on Prosecutorial Power (05:09)

• Michael’s Curiosity about Outcomes: Lewis wonders if prosecutors, after such cases, care about what happens long-term to those they prosecuted.
• Empathy and Distance: The episode contemplates the formative, often traumatic, life-changing effects of prosecution on individuals—and how those enforcing the law reckon with those effects years later.

4. Story Structure and Thematic Core (10:02)

• Finding the Story’s ‘Sentence’: Discussion of how to boil complex narratives down. Lewis notes: "By the time I get excited enough to write something, I assume it's interesting...I’m excited because I’m interested." (09:41)
• Elevator Pitch: Cott frames The Chinatown Sting’s heart: "It’s a story about three women who, you know, who are opposed to each other. And according to the system, only one of them can win. And how do they navigate that?" (10:37)

5. Praise and Lasting Impact (11:03)

• Mentorship and Affection: The segment wraps with Lewis congratulating Cott: "I’m so proud of you. You did great. And you’re gonna be doing this forever." (11:03)
• Cultural Curiosity: Lewis quips about Brooklyn’s “mysterious” nature, providing a lighthearted close to their exchange. (11:17)

Podcast Excerpt: 'The Chinatown Sting' Episode 1 – "Lucky Bird"

1. Setting the Scene: Federal Agents on the Trail (14:45)

• The Mail Sting: Agents intercept heroin shipments from Hong Kong. Each package, valued at millions, arrives in stuffed animal- and tea-filled boxes.
  • Quote: "Inside each of these packages was about $7 million worth of heroin. In today's money, that's something like $18 million per package." – Lydia Jean Cott (15:15)
• Police Cat-and-Mouse: With decoy packages rigged with transmitters, the agents’ aim is clear: "Our goal was to get someone opening up that box and going through it." – Peter Matesser, DEA (18:48)

2. The Arrest: Mothers, Mahjong, and Betrayal (22:42)

• Reluctant Criminals: The operation surprises many women—mothers, accountants, seemingly ordinary people linked only by Chinatown mahjong parlors.
  • Quote: "Basically, your stay at home moms were picking up these, you know, these large amounts of heroin." – Peter Matesser (24:55)
• Forced Decisions: Women must choose between betraying friends or facing long jail terms and family separation: "If she didn’t cooperate, she might not see her two children grow up." – Lydia Jean Cott (24:11)

3. Community, Alienation, and Belonging (27:58)

• The Deeper History of Chinatown: The story provides socio-historic context for Chinatown as a product of exclusion and racism, per expert voices Ellen Wu and Michael Luo.
  • Quote: "The reason Chinatowns exist in the first place is really about a history of racial segregation." – Ellen Wu (27:58)
  • Quote: "I feel like the stranger label remains imprinted on Asian Americans today." – Michael Luo (28:57)
• Journalistic Perspective: Cott and her reporting partner Xuyu Wang discuss their respective outsider and insider views of Chinatown as both home and curiosity.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Emotional Stakes of Justice:

  • Lydia Jean Cott: "I really wanted to do justice to everyone in the story...I also wanted them to feel like they were treated fairly in the story." (09:05)

• On Storytelling Motivation:

  • Michael Lewis: "By the time I get excited enough to write something, I assume it’s interesting…I’m excited because I’m interested." (09:41)

• On the Nature of MahJong and Friendship:

  • "The one thing that is connecting them all is that they were playing mahjong together in Manhattan’s Chinatown." – Lydia Jean Cott (04:19)

• On the Legacy of Exclusion:

  • Ellen Wu: "The reason Chinatowns exist in the first place is really about a history of racial segregation." (27:58)

• On the Long Reach of Prosecutorial Action:

  • Michael Lewis: "The relationship of the prosecutors to the people they're prosecuting is often so... warped and distant, and they've had such an effect on that person's life." (08:28)

Timestamps to Key Segments

• 03:13 – The origin of The Chinatown Sting
• 05:09 – The emotional complexities for prosecutors and the prosecuted
• 07:34 – Finding and approaching the case’s real-life participants
• 09:05 – Lydia Jean on the challenge of “doing justice” in narrative
• 10:37 – Lydia Jean’s one-sentence summary of the podcast’s theme
• 14:45 – Start of The Chinatown Sting episode excerpt (mail sting operation)
• 24:11 – The impossible choices faced by those ensnared in the sting
• 27:58 – Historical context: Chinatown’s origins and exclusion
• 28:57 – The “stranger” label on Asian American experience

Conclusion

This episode is a compelling mix of narrative craft discussion, real-world investigation, and a vivid introduction to The Chinatown Sting. Cott’s dogged reporting and sensitivity, alongside Lewis’s mentoring, make for a nuanced exploration of justice, memory, and the invisible legacies of American law enforcement. Listeners are left with a deeper understanding of both the personal and historic contours of a story that remains all too relevant today.

Where to Listen:
Find The Big Short audiobook and The Chinatown Sting via Audible, Spotify, Apple Books, Pushkin.fm, or wherever you get podcasts.