Against the Rules with Michael Lewis Episode: Natasha Schüll on the Antisocial Lure of Gambling Release Date: January 28, 2025 Host: Michael Lewis Guest: Natasha Schüll, Associate Professor at NYU and Author of Addiction by Design

Introduction to the Episode

In this compelling episode of Against the Rules, journalist and bestselling author Michael Lewis delves deep into the world of legalized gambling with Natasha Schüll, an esteemed associate professor at NYU. Together, they explore the evolution of gambling from traditional casinos to the pervasive influence of mobile and online betting platforms.

Understanding the Evolution of Gambling

Michael Lewis begins by acknowledging his initial assumptions about why people gamble, recognizing that motivations like making money or socializing might only apply to a subset of gamblers. However, he introduces Schüll’s groundbreaking research, which uncovers deeper, more pervasive motivations behind gambling behaviors.

Notable Quote:

"We often think of gambling as being a way to get something for nothing, and what I learned in my extended research with particularly slot machine gamblers... they're really after getting nothing, not something for nothing."
— Natasha Schüll [02:31]

The Psychology Behind Slot Machines

Schüll explains the concept of the "machine zone," a state where gamblers lose track of time and external pressures as they engage repetitively with slot machines. This zone serves as a form of escapism, allowing individuals to detach from their daily lives.

Notable Quote:

"It's about creating a physical surround and environment that makes you feel safe and alone so that you can zone out into your own little world."
— Natasha Schüll [09:44]

Technological Advancements and Their Impact

The shift from mechanical to digital slot machines in the late 1970s marked a significant turning point. Schüll highlights how advancements in computer and video screen technology enabled casinos to manipulate odds more precisely, drastically increasing slot machines' revenue from 20% to 90%.

Notable Quote:

"Once you've got so-called virtual reels inside the machine, you can really manipulate how a particular payout schedule can feel when you're interacting with it."
— Natasha Schüll [05:41]

Cultural Perceptions and Gender Stereotypes in Gambling

Historically, gambling in casinos was gendered, with slot machines perceived as games for women and older individuals, while table games attracted men. Schüll discusses how these stereotypes are breaking down, especially with the rise of online gambling, which attracts a more diverse demographic.

Notable Quote:

"More and more it's pretty equal the amount of men that play these machines versus women... with sports betting and mobile betting, you're seeing a complete reversal of that stereotype."
— Natasha Schüll [08:00]

Designing Addictive Gambling Environments

Schüll provides an in-depth analysis of how casinos are meticulously designed to prolong gambling sessions. From architectural choices that avoid right angles to create a seamless flow, to the use of soothing sounds and subdued lighting, every element is crafted to keep gamblers engaged and isolated.

Notable Quote:

"Right angles put you up against a stopping point... you want to just curve them where you want them to go."
— Natasha Schüll [09:44]

Transition to Digital Gambling and Its Implications

As gambling has migrated from physical casinos to smartphones and online platforms, Schüll observes that many of the same addictive design principles persist. Mobile gambling apps eliminate friction by offering constant access, removing social barriers, and ensuring continuous engagement through algorithmic design.

Notable Quote:

"The same strategies... carry over from the bricks and mortar casinos to anything on the website or online."
— Natasha Schüll [18:42]

The Allure and Risks of Sports Betting Apps

The conversation shifts to the emergence of sports betting apps and their unique design elements that foster addiction. Schüll explains how these apps employ techniques similar to slot machines, such as removing natural endpoints and creating a perpetual betting environment that capitalizes on behavioral incentives.

Notable Quote:

"You're keeping someone continually engaged and hooked into the flow of the game... it makes a lot of sense that when the game comes to an end, they're going to want to keep playing it."
— Natasha Schüll [40:06]

Guidance on Introducing Gambling to Teenagers

Addressing a personal anecdote from Lewis about his son experimenting with sports betting, Schüll offers nuanced advice. She emphasizes the ubiquity of gambling-like behaviors in modern apps and recommends fostering self-awareness and critical thinking in teenagers to navigate these environments responsibly.

Notable Quote:

"What I would recommend is trying to have the neuroscientist riding alongside in his mind as a kind of layer of awareness... trying to understand how am I reacting to certain things, how are they manipulating me."
— Natasha Schüll [29:32]

The Predatory Nature of the Gambling Industry

Schüll critiques the gambling industry's manipulative strategies, labeling it as "asymmetric collusion" where casinos thrive on revenues while gamblers seek personal escape. She underscores the ethical concerns surrounding the industry's understanding and exploitation of psychological vulnerabilities.

Notable Quote:

"They are preying on the gambler's total uncertainty about what they're going to get... it's asymmetric collusion."
— Natasha Schüll [36:20]

Conclusion and Future Discussions

Michael Lewis wraps up the episode by thanking Schüll for her insightful contributions and hints at future discussions, including an upcoming conversation with Dr. Laurie Santos about the impact of sports betting apps on teenage males.

Final Notable Quote:

"Against the Rules is written and hosted by me, Michael Lewis... [closing remarks]"
— Michael Lewis [40:43]

Key Takeaways

• Design Manipulation: Both physical and digital gambling environments are meticulously designed to maximize engagement and revenue by fostering addictive behaviors.

• Technological Influence: Advancements in technology have transformed traditional gambling, making it more accessible and harder to escape due to seamless integration into everyday devices.

• Gender Dynamics: Shifting stereotypes are leading to a more balanced demographic in gambling participation, especially with the rise of online platforms.

• Addiction Mechanisms: Constant accessibility, removal of social barriers, and algorithmic unpredictability contribute to the addictive nature of modern gambling applications.

• Ethical Concerns: The gambling industry's strategies raise significant ethical questions about the exploitation of psychological vulnerabilities for profit.

Further Resources

• Book Mentioned: Addiction by Design by Natasha Schüll
• Next Episode Teaser: Interview with Dr. Laurie Santos on the impact of sports betting apps on teenage males.

This episode offers a nuanced exploration of the intricate relationship between gambling, technology, and human psychology, shedding light on the subtle yet powerful forces that drive addictive behaviors in both traditional and modern contexts.