Vegas Sports Bookies on Old-School Betting

Summary

Against the Rules with Michael Lewis Episode: Vegas Sports Bookies on Old-School Betting Release Date: December 17, 2024

---

Introduction

In this episode of Against the Rules with Michael Lewis, hosted by Pushkin Industries, Michael delves into the enduring world of Vegas bookies, exploring how traditional bookmakers operate amidst the rapidly evolving landscape of legalized sports betting in America. This episode, titled "Vegas Sports Bookies on Old-School Betting," provides an insightful look into the lives of seasoned bookies—Chris Andrews, Jimmy Vaccaro, and Vinnie Maiolo—and examines the foundational practices that have sustained their businesses for decades.

---

Meet the Old-School Bookies

Michael Lewis introduces listeners to three veteran bookmakers:

• Chris Andrews
• Jimmy Vaccaro
• Vinnie Maiolo

These individuals, rooted deeply in the Vegas gambling scene, share their experiences and perspectives on maintaining traditional bookmaking practices in a modern, technology-driven betting environment.

---

Personal Journeys into Bookmaking

Chris Andrews' Beginnings

Chris Andrews recounts his early days at the South Point Casino, where he manages the sportsbook from a modest office. His Pittsburgh upbringing, notorious for producing several Vegas bookies, laid the foundation for his career.

Chris Andrews [03:04]: "I don't call us dinosaurs, I call us crocodiles because dinosaurs are extinct. We're crocodiles. We've been around for 80 million years."

Jimmy Vaccaro's Entry into Gambling

Jimmy Vaccaro shares his initiation into the gambling world, inspired by his brother Sonny and his beginnings as a blackjack dealer. His first significant bet and subsequent rise in the bookmaking hierarchy are detailed vividly.

Jimmy Vaccaro [04:17]: "Like the movie the Sting? Yeah, yeah."

Vinnie Maiolo's Early Exposure

Vinnie Maiolo describes his early exposure to horse racing and gambling through Catholic school fundraisers, highlighting the influence of his family and community in shaping his passion for bookmaking.

Vinnie Maiolo [05:33]: "First time I went to the racetrack, I thought I was going to the zoo."

---

The Evolution of Sports Betting

From Point Spreads to Prop Bets

The conversation transitions to the evolution of betting options. Initially dominated by simple point spreads and moneylines, the sportsbook landscape has expanded to include a myriad of prop bets, thanks to innovators like Jimmy's cousin Hart Manteris.

Jimmy Vaccaro [24:00]: "The biggest push in the first 40 years, of 49 years that I've been involved, is when Perry scored the touchdown."

Introduction of Prop Bets

The introduction of prop bets, such as the famous "Refrigerator Perry" touchdown, marked a significant shift in the betting industry, enhancing the market's appeal and complexity.

Chris Andrews [23:40]: "I think his [Hart Manteris] played the first one, and it was one of those. And he'd tell you the story."

---

Managing Bets and Smart Bettors

Setting Limits

Chris discusses the importance of setting betting limits to manage risks, especially concerning high-stakes or edge players. While limits are generally fixed, there's flexibility to adjust them based on a bettor's reliability.

Chris Andrews [30:48]: "But you have to have some limits."

Handling High-Stakes Bets

Both Chris and Jimmy share anecdotes of handling substantial bets from notable figures, emphasizing the delicate balance between accommodating bettors and managing potential risks.

Jimmy Vaccaro [32:14]: "The biggest bet I took was Carl Icahn. He bet $2.4 million on a moneyline bet, and he's a pain in the ass."

---

The Impact of Legalization and Modernization

European Influence and Corporate Integration

Chris elaborates on how the influx of European bookmakers has introduced corporate practices into the traditionally informal American bookmaking scene, altering the industry's dynamics.

Chris Andrews [33:08]: "But I think it's affected the business on a broader scale. I think a lot of these guys came in from Europe."

Technology and the Future of Bookmaking

Jimmy envisions a future where artificial intelligence and computerized systems dominate sports betting, reducing the need for human bookies. He also anticipates a surge in youth participation as legal betting ages down.

Jimmy Vaccaro [38:24]: "There'll be no human beings running it. It'll be all computerized."

---

Sustaining the Old-School Model

Adaptation and Resilience

Vinnie proudly asserts the longevity and adaptability of their traditional bookmaking methods, attributing their sustained success to the ability to evolve while maintaining core practices.

Vinnie Maiolo [37:51]: "Call us old school. Yeah, well, I take that as a compliment because of the fact that here we are combined 150 years."

Challenges from Modern Betting Platforms

Chris discusses the competition posed by modern betting platforms like DraftKings and Fanduel, which cater to less experienced bettors, contrasting them with the sophisticated approach of established bookies.

Chris Andrews [35:19]: "I think right now, I think we're on the right side of it. Somebody told me one thing is your business model is not sustainable. I've been doing this for six decades."

---

Looking Ahead: The Future of Sports Betting

Michael and the bookies speculate on the trajectory of sports gambling over the next few decades. The consensus leans towards increased automation, greater accessibility for younger bettors, and potential regulatory changes shaping the industry's landscape.

Jimmy Vaccaro [38:45]: "It's getting there. Now, I would say in five years, what you'll get is like you'll go to a sportsbook, you'll make your bet. But there might be three human beings because you need someone like, you know, whatever."

---

Conclusion

Michael Lewis wraps up the episode by reflecting on the invaluable insights shared by Chris, Jimmy, and Vinnie. Their stories underscore the enduring allure and intricate dynamics of old-school bookmaking in Vegas, highlighting both the challenges and the timeless strategies that keep their businesses thriving in an ever-changing industry.

Vinnie Maiolo [37:51]: "If we didn't make adjustments, then we would be gone."

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Chris Andrews [03:04]: "We're crocodiles. We've been around for 80 million years."
• Jimmy Vaccaro [04:17]: "Like the movie the Sting? Yeah, yeah."
• Vinnie Maiolo [05:33]: "First time I went to the racetrack, I thought I was going to the zoo."
• Jimmy Vaccaro [24:00]: "The biggest push in the first 40 years, of 49 years that I've been involved, is when Perry scored the touchdown."
• Jimmy Vaccaro [38:24]: "There'll be no human beings running it. It'll be all computerized."
• Vinnie Maiolo [37:51]: "Call us old school. Yeah, well, I take that as a compliment because of the fact that here we are combined 150 years."

---

Final Thoughts

For those unfamiliar with the inner workings of Vegas bookmaking, this episode offers a comprehensive and engaging exploration of the industry's roots, its evolution, and the personal narratives of those who have been instrumental in shaping its course. Michael Lewis effectively captures the essence of old-school betting while juxtaposing it against modern trends, providing listeners with a nuanced understanding of what it truly means to be a bookmaker in today's America.

---

Produced by:

• Host: Michael Lewis
• Producer: Lydia Jean Cott
• Production Team: Catherine Girardeau, Ariella Markowitz
• Editor: Julia Barton
• Engineer: Sarah Bruguer

Listen on: iHeartRadio | Apple Podcasts | Pushkin FM Plus

---

Note: Advertisements, introductions, and non-content sections have been omitted to focus solely on the episode's core discussions and narratives.

Transcript

[Michael Lewis]

Pushkin.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

This is Malcolm Gladwell from Revisionist History looking for a ride that turns every drive into an exciting adventure. Picture this. It's a Tuesday morning. You could take the usual route or you could take the ultimate route. Say goodbye to mundane commutes with thrilling performance, slick design and technology that practically reads your mind. Driving becomes less of a chore and more of an experience. Because why just get from A to B when you can do it with unparalleled style and flair? Unleash the passion for driving. Get behind the wheel of A BMW today. BMW, the ultimate driving machine. Learn more@BMW USA.com the most innovative companies.

[Michael Lewis]

Are going further with T Mobile for business. Traktor Supply trusts 5G solutions from T Mobile. Together they're connecting over 2,200 stores with 5G business Internet empowering AI so team members can match shoppers with the products they need faster. This is enriching customer experience. This is Traktor Supply with T Mobile for business. Take your business [e-mail] now you're an innovator focused on changing the world.

[HSBC Representative]

You need a trusted banking partner to supercharge your company at all stages of growth. HSBC Innovation Banking is here to support.

[Michael Lewis]

Your need for velocity without volatility. We're led by a dedicated team so you get deep sector expertise without distractions.

[HSBC Representative]

Banking for innovation doesn't look like it used to. Find out more at InnovationBanking HSBC.

[Michael Lewis]

Welcome back to against the Rules Everybody. Michael Lewis here. Last episode. We heard from Billy Walters, one of the great old school sports gambling sharps. He's someone who made the poker tables and saloons of Vegas more interesting. Characters like Billy are harder to find in today's Vegas, but there's another type of figure who's still around and that's who we're going to meet today. The bookies.

[Chris Andrews]

I don't call us dinosaurs, I call us crocodiles because dinosaurs are extinct. We're crocodiles. We've been around for 80 million years.

[Vinnie Maiolo]

And we're still here.

[Michael Lewis]

Chris Andrews met with me and my producer Lydia Jean Cott at the South Point Casino where Chris runs the sports book from a dingy little office beside the place where all the sports gamblers gathered to make their bets. Chris has been in Vegas for a long time and so have his associates Jimmy Vaccaro and and Vinny Maiolo. They came of age at a time when if you wanted to gamble or become a bookie, Vegas is where you went. All roads led to it and all lines emanated from it. Chris grew up in Pittsburgh, which was famous for generating Vegas bookies.

[Chris Andrews]

I think the geography, the topography had a lot to do with it. There's a lot of, like, all the three rivers, of course, but there's other ones, you know, created all these little valleys.

[Michael Lewis]

Yep.

[Chris Andrews]

And this little valley, our little valley, had a lot of Greeks. I'm Greek. The next valley had Germans, had Irish and Italians. And in each of these little pockets was like its own little community.

[Michael Lewis]

Create isolated population where you could make your own rules.

[Chris Andrews]

Yeah. And you just take care of the right guys, and you're okay.

[Michael Lewis]

Chris's colleague, Jimmy Vaccaro, also grew up near Pittsburgh. He started off as a blackjack dealer and had a hand in operating sports books in a handful of Vegas casinos, including the MGM and the Golden Nugget. Matt Damon played his brother Sonny Vaccaro in a movie called Air, about how Sonny got Michael Jordan to sign with Nike. True story. Sonny's the one who got Jimmy started in gambling.

[Jimmy Vaccaro]

You'd have these little standup places where they sold the magazines and a candy bar. And if you went in the back, you could bet the horses, you could bet the games, whatever. And you could have a drink, you could sit down, whatever. I used to go to a place called the Comet News, was in Braddock, Pennsylvania. Remember the movie the Sting?

[Michael Lewis]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jimmy Vaccaro]

Like the movie. This thing at that little place where the book went. That's exactly what the Comet News looked like.

[Chris Andrews]

Exactly.

[Jimmy Vaccaro]

I. I was. I was marveled. So anyway, so I used to go with my brother, because I wasn't even 18. It was. Sonny would go down, he'd bet 50, $100, whatever. Then when I got to be old enough, Joe Noguera, who owned the Common News at the time. I remember I went in there with my friend, and I wanted to make a bet on a baseball game, then go to the Pirate game. So I went inside and I bet about three games. I bet him for offer, like, pretty good, like a hundred dollars each or 200. So it was like 500, which was a lot of money. We're talking about 1965, 1966. And here's. Here's one of my great statements. I said, joe, I said, I'm gonna be able to pay you, like, Monday or Tuesday. He said, jimmy, these aren't green stamps. In other words, I couldn't bet with no credit. You had to bring cash. And then the next time I came, now, I was at 18, 19, 20, something like that, and I was okay. I had a $200 credit line as A common news to me, that was like a million dollars. I finally made it. Joe Nogueira thinks I'm okay then. That just started everything.

[Vinnie Maiolo]

First time I went to the racetrack, I thought I was going to the zoo.

[Michael Lewis]

That's Vinnie Maiolo, the third in our trio of Vegas bookies.

[Vinnie Maiolo]

My Uncle Tony says, hey, you want to go see some animals? And I wanted to get out of the house. I'm thinking, yeah, we're going to go up to the Bronx and go to the zoo. So we were out there, and I'm looking around. I said, uncle Tony, how come the only animals here? They're horses. He says, it's a very special zoo. And so I learned very early on that horse racing was ingrained in my family. And it was ingrained because my Uncle Tony and several other relatives probably paid for several renovations on the back stretch at Belmont and Aqueduct. And at the same time, I'm going to Catholic school. The thing about Catholic school is that there's quite a bit of fundraising. Bingo, Vegas nights, raffles.

[Michael Lewis]

How does the Catholic Church feel about gambling? Does it have a position?

[Vinnie Maiolo]

I think it's got a pretty solid position. I think it supports it when you consider every fundraiser is gambling related. So, you know, people say to me, vinnie, you do this. You must have been a really good math student. I said, well, I was average in math, but I aced fundraising. So, you know, in growing up, you know, in between the New York Post and the Daily News, all the horse racing, you know, the cards for that day, the odds, were always presented and talked about quite a bit. So it just kind of, in my mind, I knew that. Wow, this is intriguing to me. It was intriguing. You know, I was around card games, you know, with relatives and friends. So it just was something that really attracted me, and I gravitated to, and I had a mind for it.

[Michael Lewis]

When you thought about getting in the gambling business when you're 14, what did that mean? Like, are you going to be a professional better or are you going to.

[Vinnie Maiolo]

No, I learned very early that it was far better to be on the house side of the counter. I mean, look, there's a reason that hotels kept getting built and, you know, racetracks were still in business and things like that. I told you about the 69 World Series. I go to school and in the playground, and there's a big deal about the Orioles being a prohibitive favorite. Sister Thomas, the principal, she, you know, throw out the nuns who attended a novitiate outside of Baltimore. Well, they're, you know, talking about they're talking about how the Mets are going to get killed. So I said, you know, sister, you know, I think, you know, we could probably make a little deal here. She says, what do you mean? I said, I'll tell you what. If the Orioles win the World Series, I will stay for a month's worth of Fridays for detention and clean the blackboards. But you have to clap out the erasers and wash them and everything, which was like the worst thing because not only did you have to do it, but then you had to go home and listen to your mom who could never get the chalk out of your, out of your, of your clothes. So I volunteered. She said, well, what happens? What if, what if some miracle occurs and the Mets win? I said, well, I get free lunch for, with free milk for that month. She said, this sounds like gambling. I said, it's not a gas, it's a deal. I'm making a deal system. She says, okay, Mr. Mario, you're on. So of course we go. Game one, Orioles win game one four to one. I get to school the next day. I'm in the playground getting ready to go to class. And the principal, she's out there. Well, Mr. Mayurlo, looks like it's going to be a long fall for you, young man. She's just talking trash. She's talking smack to me. So I said, and I did the only thing I could do. I said, would you like to press it? She says, what language? Where do you learn this vernacular? This is terrible. I said, sister, you're really coming. You know, you're pressing me here. Well, Michael, needless to say, young Vinnie Maiulo drank a lot of milk and got a lot of free lunch in the fall of 1969. But I still got detention for two months for gambling on campus.

[Michael Lewis]

After the break, how these three future bookies got their starts in Vegas.

[T Mobile Representative]

T Mobile for business recently teamed up with Malcolm Gladwell for a new episode of Revisionist History to talk about how 5G is enabling the use of AI to deliver transformative and sometimes life saving innovation.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Hello.

[Chris Andrews]

Hello.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Malcolm Gladwell here. Today I wanted to share a very special conversation I had recently hosted by my good friends at T Mobile for business about how AI is changing our world. Tell us about the problem you're trying to solve.

[T Mobile Representative]

When we think about emergency events and really at the majority of the world, the primary tool set that firefighters use is a radio to communicate their status to the outside operation. Pretty reasonable to expect that people can become disoriented.

[Healthcare Representative]

So when I realized that technology was Important was when I realized that many of the most vexing healthcare challenges that we saw in my own family, we realized that there was just significant lack of resources.

[T Mobile Representative]

You know, from a T Mobile for business perspective, like how can we take this incredible best in the nation 5G network and how can we harness some very specific capabilities? Listen to this episode of Revisionist history on the iHeartRadio app, available now.

[Geico Representative]

For many of us, the holiday season means more travel, more shopping, more time online and more of your personal information in more places you can't control. It only takes one innocent mistake, even if it's not your mistake, to expose you to identity theft. Not to worry. Lifelock monitors hundreds of millions of data points every second and alerts you to threats you could miss by yourself. Even if you keep an eye on your bank and credit card statements, if your identity is stolen, your own US based restoration specialist will fix it, guaranteed. The last thing you want to do this holiday season is face drained accounts, fraudulent loans or other financial losses from identity theft all alone. Gift yourself the peace of mind that comes with Lifelock and spend more time doing more of the holiday things you love. Visit lifelock.com pushkin and save up to 40% your first year. That's 40% [e-mail] Pushkin LifeLock for the threats you can't control.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

This is Malcolm Gladwell from Revisionist History. So we are, we're sitting in what.

[Healthcare Representative]

We'Re sitting in a 1988 BMW 325is.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And describe the way in which it's been modified.

[Healthcare Representative]

Oh, it has no interior. That's where it begins.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Not even a steering wheel as far as I can tell.

[Vinnie Maiolo]

Yeah.

[Healthcare Representative]

Right now there's no steering wheel, although I can fix that in a second.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And what's the appeal of a late 80s BMW 325?

[Healthcare Representative]

Well, it's almost like the perfection of a recipe that BMW began in the 60s, which is to take a really beautifully made inline six engine, rear wheel drive and just like an incredibly balanced and fun to drive car.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah, yeah.

[Healthcare Representative]

Let me give it a little, little sneak peek. I need to connect the battery. The battery is disconnected.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

We do it. The battery's in the back of the.

[Healthcare Representative]

Battery is actually under the rear seat.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Oh, I see. Just. That's it. That's so it has an absolutely perfect balance between front and rear.

[Vinnie Maiolo]

Rear.

[Jimmy Vaccaro]

Rear way.

[Chris Andrews]

Exactly.

[Vinnie Maiolo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

So, yes. Turn it on.

[Healthcare Representative]

Let's hear it.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Oh, yes. And this is you. This is your first BMW.

[Healthcare Representative]

My second.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Oh, no, Lucas, you can't say that. What Was your second. What was your first?

[Healthcare Representative]

It was a 1989 535i.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Oh, yes, this is. But you own that with a bunch of other people.

[Healthcare Representative]

Yeah, yeah. So this is my first. My true. My first, you know, sole BMW. Solely owned.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Solely owned BMW.

[Jimmy Vaccaro]

Okay.

[Healthcare Representative]

Wonderful.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Whether it's a vintage 3 series or the all new 20253 series, you'll never forget your first BMW. The new 3 series combines mind blowing driving dynamics with modern style, offering a striking sports sedan that thrills on every ride. With innovative technology, intelligent driver assistance systems and bold design inside and out, the three series makes every journey unforgettable. Learn more at BMW USA.com.

[Michael Lewis]

I'm back at the South Point Casino in Las Vegas, hearing about the world. That was after Vinny Maiolo graduated with a degree in illicit gambling from Catholic school. Vegas is of course where he wanted to go. Lucky for him, he had an uncle who played music in Vegas.

[Vinnie Maiolo]

So my uncle introduced me to Michael Gaughn and I went. Michael Gaughn and his partner Frank Toady, they had a dealing school where you learned how to be a. A casino dealer because books were not a lot of books at the time.

[Michael Lewis]

Is there a lot to learn? How hard is it to be a casino dealer?

[Vinnie Maiolo]

It depends on what you want to learn. I learned dice because it's the hardest game. So once you learn dice, you can learn all the games, but you can be dealing blackjack in. If you got a good mind and good hands, you could be dealing in less than two weeks. Now it's easier because there's automatic shufflers on the roulette table. You just have to.

[Michael Lewis]

It's got a lower skill.

[Vinnie Maiolo]

Frankly, there was a lot more art when I was doing it. So I got hired. He hired me as a dice dealer. And Michael Gaunt, I still say to this day, he had the first cross training program in Las Vegas. And it didn't have manuals, it did not have meetings, it didn't have a whole lot of fanfare. It was this. Make sure you're good at what I hired you for, then go learn what you want. Well, where was Vinnie? Hanging out on his breaks. You know, you worked an hour on and you got a 20 minute sports book. I was in a book hanging out with Jimmy. That's where I met Jimmy.

[Michael Lewis]

Right.

[Vinnie Maiolo]

So about. I'm dealing for about three months and pit boss gets a phone call and it's Michael gone. He says, send Vinnie up. So I go upstairs and I'm thinking, oh man, this is not. What could this be? I'm liking this. Can't be. I'm thinking, God, what did I screw up a payoff? What am I doing wrong? So he calls me, he says, vinnie, how's your game? I said, well, sir, I think it's pretty good. I'm working every day. I learned something. And every time I learned something, I go back to school after work and work on it and, you know, put it to, you know, keep trying to refine my game. He says, well, good, because you're going to go to the Barbary Coast. And the Barbary coast opened in March of 1979. The building is still there. It's the Cromwell on the corner of Las Vegas Boulevard in Flamingo. And I was there, and I'm working in the pit, but I'm also in the book every break. And that's where I met Chrissy, too. So Chris, Jimmy and I all worked together at the Barbary Coast.

[Michael Lewis]

So that's Vinnie's story of how he found his place in Vegas. For his part, Jimmy Vaccaro came west from Pittsburgh around 1964.

[Jimmy Vaccaro]

I knew I had to create some money real quick. I knew everybody started with my brother. So now here I am. And I said, I gotta think of some way to make some money, you know, whatever. So two, what you would consider small time bookmakers, what they booked, 200 a game, 300 a game. I called both of them back and I said, I'll be your openers. In other words, I'll call you with the. With the. With the betting lines from the Churchill Downs and the other places, whatever. And I charged them 300 a week. And they all paid because they wanted to know what the point spreads were in Las Vegas on these games, whatever.

[Michael Lewis]

Where were these guys you were sending the lines to?

[Jimmy Vaccaro]

Pittsburgh.

[Michael Lewis]

Oh, so you're sending the lines from Vegas back to Pittsburgh. And they were just getting early lines.

[Jimmy Vaccaro]

They needed openers, right? Yeah, they needed. What the hell was going on and.

[Michael Lewis]

Who in Vegas was set. Was.

[Jimmy Vaccaro]

Was setting Churchill Downs was like the first place that was independent. There was no. No 21 tables. Just race and sports book. That's what it was before you couldn't bet on sports.

[Michael Lewis]

Right.

[Jimmy Vaccaro]

I knew that the Gone family, it's a guy that owns this casino. I knew that they were, like, spoken highly of. I mean, everybody. The Gone family, Jackie Gone, that's his picture on the wall out here. Yeah, it's right on the wall. So I said, you know, what do I got to lose if I just go down there and say, I want a job and his first casino was a little place called the Royal Inn. Casino was just six 21 tables, a bar boot and a roulette wheel. No sports book. I went to his office and I said to. His secretary's name was Ann Coffin. I said, can I see Mr. Gaunt, please? Who are you? I said, jimmy Vaquero. She says, okay. She walked up and went in the back where Michael's office was. And he was there for about three minutes. And all of a sudden he come out. Now, this is hard to believe, but just the truth. He says, who are you? I said, jimmy Vaccari says, what do you want? And I said, well, I'd like to get a job. I said, but I want to go to the dealer school, too. He says, what do you do? Where do you deal? I says, no. I said, I just got to town. He says, you just got to town a couple of days ago? I said, yes. I said, and I want to get a job in the casino if I live to be a million. He went in his little office. He took me with him. So he picked up the phone. He called, you know, the dealer school downtown? And he said, I got a kid here. What's your name again? I said, jimmy Vaccaro. He. He says, I got a kid named Vaquero here. He wants to go to dealer school. And he said, okay, you know. I said, how much is it, Mr. Gaughan? He said, $250. I said, Mr. Gahn, I don't have any money. He says, what? I said, you can't. You don't have any money? I said, no, sir, I don't have any money. He picked the phone back up. He called the dealer school downtown. He said, this kid named Jimmy, he's coming down. He doesn't have any money. He'll pay you when he gets the money. So I took about six weeks to pay him 50. 50 or whatever it was. And then within 17 days, he gave me a job dealing 21 at this little casino. A year and a half later, we opened up the sports book at the Royal Inn in the casino, which was now allowed if you did it correctly. And he threw me the keys. He says, go open the sportsbook up.

[Michael Lewis]

But when you started the first sports book, were you. This first sports book you created, what kind of bets are you willing to take?

[Jimmy Vaccaro]

Maybe three or four thousand dollars on an NFL game. I was smart enough to understand, don't think you're smarter than these guys out there coming in now. And I brought. I tell you what, I got a lot of credibility Big reason I got credibility is everybody knew the Gaughan family and that was Michael's little casino. And I guess their thought process to all the old wise guys was if Michael gone hired a kid, he must know a little bit, right? And that's what happened.

[Michael Lewis]

I spoke with Jimmy's fellow bookie, Chris Andrews, in front of all these busy and noisy monitors at South Point. Chris got a start at the Stardust casino back in 1979. At the time it was Vegas biggest sports book.

[Chris Andrews]

So I started the Stardust.

[Michael Lewis]

So give me a feel, give me a sense of how that would have felt if I'd walked into that place then, how it would feel differently than walking into here now.

[Chris Andrews]

Well, boy, in some ways, probably the characters, there's a lot of similarities. And character wise, the difference is in like the actual like betting menu and experience, like back then we booked, you know, the game, the point spread. Yep, that was about it.

[Michael Lewis]

Was any boy. Was there moneylines too?

[Chris Andrews]

No, almost never money lines. And then I remember going into Bill Dark's Del Mar sports ball. And I remember this is probably before I moved out here permanently. What's that 35 on the board? I remember was next to the Steelers. What's that 35? Well, that's the over and under point scored in the game. You can bet on that. Are you serious? When did this. And he, as far as I know, he's the one that came up with that. You know, maybe somebody would tell you something different. But this was like late 70s, so there are.

[Michael Lewis]

So between then and now, they're. One thing that changes is the number of things you can bet on. And it's exploded.

[Chris Andrews]

Oh, I mean, I don't even know what the exponential value would be, but monstrous.

[Michael Lewis]

But also how you can bet because it used to be just point spread.

[Chris Andrews]

It was just point spread.

[Michael Lewis]

And who. Who invents the money line? Do you have any idea?

[Chris Andrews]

Well, actually, the money line had been around before the point spread. It kind of gotten like maybe forgotten a little bit for a while with the advent of the point spread that came back into play probably. I'd say like, you know, early 80s, maybe mid-80s, something like that. So then and at the time. So teasers were a big, you know, so you had point spread with the teasers. Right then the total started.

[Michael Lewis]

No, explain teaser bet. Because it would be nice to have your explanation.

[Chris Andrews]

Okay, teaser bet, you get six and a half or seven points to your advantage. And there's some other teasers. The six pointer is the most common.

[Michael Lewis]

Right.

[Chris Andrews]

So a six Point teaser was even money. So if your team was minus seven, you had them in a six point teaser. Now they're minus one.

[Michael Lewis]

All right?

[Chris Andrews]

Essentially asking them to win the game. Or if they were plus seven, you could tease it up to 13. You know, now you're getting almost two full touchdowns.

[Michael Lewis]

You're just changing the odds in the favor.

[Chris Andrews]

Yeah. And then from there we just started figuring out. And you know, and you know, it's my cousin Hart Manteris, who came up with the. William the Refrigerator Perry scoring a touchdown in the 1985 Super Bowl.

[Michael Lewis]

That was a novel thing.

[Chris Andrews]

That was. He was the first one, and it was one of those. And he'd tell you the story.

[Michael Lewis]

Where was he when he.

[Chris Andrews]

He was at Caesar's Palace.

[Michael Lewis]

Okay.

[Chris Andrews]

I think he put it up, you know, 20 to 1 or something like that. Anyway, they lost like a quarter of a million dollars.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Perry.

[Chris Andrews]

Another super bowl record.

[Michael Lewis]

The first refrigerator to score.

[Jimmy Vaccaro]

The biggest push in the first 40 years, of 49 years that I've been involved is when Perry scored the touchdown.

[Michael Lewis]

That's Jimmy Vaccaro again. Both he and Chris were present at the birth of the prop bet in sports.

[Jimmy Vaccaro]

As soon as he scored the touchdown, we all licked our wounds. Seizures. Lost the most. I think they lost 140,000. I did real good. I only lost about 50,000, so I thought I did really good. So what had happened right after that? So the next day, just about every book in town, your phone line started to light up. From every big city in the country, they heard about Perry scoring a touchdown. So that it just promoted like if we do more of those type of things. So that's where the.

[Michael Lewis]

Just got a price of better.

[Chris Andrews]

I mean, they lost a fortune. I'm saying a quarter million, probably more than that. And Terry Lanney was the president of Caesars at the time. Comes into the office, called Terry Lanning. Jesus. Calls Terry Lanney. Yes, sir. He figures, fired. That's the best thing you've ever done. We have had so much publicity over that. That was. Whatever we lost, it was well worth it. Well, like shit.

[Michael Lewis]

Okay.

[Chris Andrews]

Now he went from filling his boxes to unpacking everything. And, you know, and we, we started doing more props and the props grew.

[Michael Lewis]

So this is, it's interesting. Like, it's, it has become, it's become the center of the market, these prop bets.

[Chris Andrews]

We wrote more on the props than we did on the, on the game. On the game.

[Michael Lewis]

And. But it, it, it wasn't obvious to, to the casinos.

[Chris Andrews]

No.

[Michael Lewis]

That this was going to be that popular. What do you think is going on? Why do people like the prop bets now?

[Chris Andrews]

I can't even keep track of who these guys are playing for from, you know, so like you attach yourself now to a player rather than more so than a team and I think that that's certainly a part of it. So these things come from somewhere.

[Michael Lewis]

Right.

[Chris Andrews]

You know, and someone thinks to do.

[Michael Lewis]

It and then the market responds to it.

[Chris Andrews]

Yeah.

[Michael Lewis]

If someone came up and wanted a line on something that there was no line on, like that, like win totals, season win totals, would you all do it?

[Jimmy Vaccaro]

Depending how long, how far, how much you want to bet. Well, here's the answer to that. On everything. The 1979 Super bowl with the Steelers and the Cowboys. Big, big game, monster game. But here's how many times you could bet the game. You ready? You can bet the side, you bet the total, or you can bet the halftime. Three different ways to bet on the Super Bowl. Now everybody averages at least 250props on each game on the super bowl game.

[Michael Lewis]

We're going to take a short break. When we return, I asked Chris Andrews and Jimmy Vaccaro about limits, when and how they might limit the bets of edge players.

[T Mobile Representative]

T Mobile for Business recently teamed up with Malcolm Gladwell for a new episode of Revisionist History to talk about how 5G is enabling the use of AI to deliver transformative and sometimes life saving innovation.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Hello, Hello, Malcolm Gladwell here. Today I wanted to share a very special conversation I had recently hosted by my good friends AT T Mobile for Business about how AI is changing our world. Tell us about the problem you're trying to solve.

[T Mobile Representative]

When we think about emergency events and really at the majority of the world, the primary tool set that firefighters use is a radio to communicate their status to the outside operation. Pretty reasonable to expect that people can become disoriented.

[Healthcare Representative]

So when I realized that technology was important was when I realized that many of the most vexing healthcare challenges that we saw in my own family, we realized that there was just significant lack.

[T Mobile Representative]

Of resources, you know, from a T Mobile for business perspective, like how can we take this incredible best in the nation 5G network and how can we harness some very specific capabilities? Listen to this episode of Revisionist history on the iHeartRadio app available now.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

This is Malcolm Gladwell from Revisionist History. So we are, we're sitting in what.

[Healthcare Representative]

We'Re sitting in a 1988 BMW 325is.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And describe the way in which it's been modified.

[Healthcare Representative]

Oh, it has no interior. That's where it begins.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Not even a steering wheel as far as I can tell.

[Vinnie Maiolo]

Yeah.

[Healthcare Representative]

Right now there's no steering wheel, although I can fix that in a second.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And what's the appeal of a late 80s BMW 325?

[Healthcare Representative]

Well, it's almost like the perfection of a recipe that BMW began in the 60s, which is to take, you know, a really beautifully made inline six engine, rear wheel drive and just like an incredibly balanced and fun to drive car. Yeah, yeah. Let me give it a little sneak peek. I need to connect the battery. The battery is disconnected.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

We do it. The battery is the backup.

[Healthcare Representative]

The battery is actually under the rear seat.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Oh, I see. Just. That's it. That's so it has an absolutely perfect balance between front and rear.

[Vinnie Maiolo]

Rear.

[Jimmy Vaccaro]

Rear way.

[Chris Andrews]

Exactly.

[Vinnie Maiolo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

So yes. Turn it on.

[Healthcare Representative]

Let's hear it.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Oh yes. And this is you. This is your first BMW.

[Healthcare Representative]

My second.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Oh no, Lucas, you can't say that. To say it like. What was your second? What was your first?

[Healthcare Representative]

It was a 1989 535i.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Oh yes, this is. But you own that with a bunch of other people.

[Healthcare Representative]

Yeah, yeah. So this is my first. My true. My first, you know, sole BMW. Solely owned solely on BMW.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Okay, wonderful. Whether it's a vintage 3 Series, for the all new 20253 Series, you'll never forget your first BMW. The new 3 Series combines mind blowing driving dynamics with modern style, offering a striking sports sedan that thrills on every ride. With innovative technology, intelligent driver assistance systems and bold design inside and out, the 3 Series makes every journey unforgettable. Learn more at BMW USA.com.

[Michael Lewis]

I'm back in Vegas with bookies Chris Andrews and Jimmy Vaccaro. When was the first time, if ever you rejected a bet because of who was making the bet?

[Chris Andrews]

Well, I've rejected bets on limits where guys will come in and say I want this or that. But you know, for I said, well, that's more than we take.

[Michael Lewis]

Right?

[Chris Andrews]

But rejecting a bet that's on the board, never. Really?

[Michael Lewis]

Really.

[Chris Andrews]

I mean I like, I said for sure I would cut guys and guys, oh, you shouldn't have limits. I said, really? So if Elon Musk comes in and says I blew 40 billion on Twitter, I'm going to get it back on the Dodger game tonight. I'm supposed to take that bet, right? No, it's not going to happen.

[Michael Lewis]

Right.

[Chris Andrews]

So you have to have some limits.

[Michael Lewis]

But you the in the old days in that when you first started out, if a guy came in and he was known to be Smart?

[Chris Andrews]

Yeah.

[Michael Lewis]

Did you adjust the limits on him because he was smart? Were smart bettors treated in any way worse?

[Chris Andrews]

Well, here's the rule I've always had when I post like the limits, that's for anybody that walks in. Now I can go higher than the limits on certain guys, but I don't lower them because you're who you are. I don't lower them because. But I'll raise them if I think the guy's a dead square.

[Michael Lewis]

Right, Right. So what is a typical limit on, I don't know, a prop bet or an early.

[Chris Andrews]

It's a couple thousand.

[Michael Lewis]

What about just a game? An NFL game?

[Chris Andrews]

NFL game. I think Most guys take 100.

[Michael Lewis]

Okay, what's the, is that, would that be the biggest?

[Chris Andrews]

Well, I've had. I've taken a couple million dollar bets.

[Michael Lewis]

You have?

[Chris Andrews]

Yeah.

[Michael Lewis]

On NFL games.

[Chris Andrews]

Super Bowls.

[Michael Lewis]

Super Bowls. Okay, gotcha.

[Jimmy Vaccaro]

Now the biggest bet I took was Carl icahn. He bet $2.4 million on a moneyline bet and he's a pain in the ass. I had some big decisions, but you took the bet? Yeah.

[Michael Lewis]

How did it work out?

[Jimmy Vaccaro]

He won, but we won. I actually ended up needing his side because when I changed the line it was the year when San Diego was in the Super Bowl. It's only a four hour drive from San Diego to here.

[Michael Lewis]

How much of like football betting for example, are people just betting on the teams they love?

[Jimmy Vaccaro]

Well, yeah, most people, most people are betting, betting the uniform. They want to see their team win. And it got bigger and bigger and bigger. We just accommodated everybody.

[Michael Lewis]

How's the legalization around the country changed your business?

[Chris Andrews]

It hasn't affected me so much here. I was fortunate. I worked for an old school guy, Michael Gaunt.

[Michael Lewis]

Right.

[Chris Andrews]

But I think it's affected the business in a, in a broader scale. I think a lot of these guys came in from Europe. They were very corporate, British corporate work streams. This is the legal, this is the marketing, this is the hr. This is blah, blah, blah. I was head of the bookmaking work stream. They call their bookmakers traders. We all hate that word. There are traders, we're bookmakers. What's this trader stuff? But that's like infiltrated the whole language.

[Michael Lewis]

If I'm actually gambling and I go into William Hill or one of these.

[Chris Andrews]

Are you winning? Are you a winning player?

[Michael Lewis]

I'm a winning player. I'm an edge player.

[Chris Andrews]

You're going to be out.

[Michael Lewis]

Is that right?

[Chris Andrews]

Yeah. They can't wait to throw you out. They can't wait to throw you out. Turn Sack them. Sack them. That's what they. Why don't we just let them bet.

[Michael Lewis]

The limits and then move the market?

[Chris Andrews]

Yeah.

[Michael Lewis]

And why don't they respond? What's underneath that? Is it that they are uncomfortable making markets?

[Chris Andrews]

That's the way they've always done it over there. And they don't want to adapt to American wagering. So they do things their way. We do some things differently. So we are not going to be throwing people out. We want as much traffic as we can. Now of course, we have to manage our money properly.

[Michael Lewis]

Right.

[Chris Andrews]

And that sort of thing. So it's not just freewheeling.

[Michael Lewis]

Why does the European gambler put up with this? Like, why didn't someone emerge to compete with this model?

[Chris Andrews]

Michael, you don't go to England and start interviewing their players, right? Because I know a few of them, you know, and I don't know why they do. I don't know. But they're always trying to circumvent everything. Yeah, you know, always. You know, you might, you know, next week, you know, your, your wife or your cousin or your, your brother in law or something, you know, using phony names and all that kind of stuff. Always trying to circumvent it. But as soon as you win a couple bets, they're thrown out too. You know, you gotta start all over again.

[Michael Lewis]

Give me an example of something that would've been kind of common gambling behavior 40 years ago and that.

[Chris Andrews]

Well, parlays, like with the total. If you bet a big favorite, bet a big favorite. Like just figure out the math. Don't, don't buy stupid half points when you don't need to. Right. Parlays, be careful. Like parlays and teasers and all that.

[Michael Lewis]

But also there's been this infusion of bookmakers whose business model is kind of different from your business model. It's like, let's just take dumbbets, the Brits.

[Chris Andrews]

Oh yeah. Oh, those guys. Yeah.

[Michael Lewis]

But it's like Fanduels and DraftKings doesn't.

[Chris Andrews]

Yeah, just take the dummies. That's all we want.

[Michael Lewis]

Right. And it's kind of a different business.

[Chris Andrews]

Yeah, right.

[Michael Lewis]

Is it a more profitable business.

[Chris Andrews]

So far? Yeah. But as a matter of fact, I was just talking to somebody the other day, a little different subject, asking me essentially the same question. And I think a lot of these places, they think this is just like the golden goose. I think they're going to kill the golden goose at some point. And I think there will be a shakeout in the industry. And what's it, nature abhors a vacuum. It's going to fill a void. And I think right now, I think we're on the right side of it. Somebody told me one thing is your business model is not sustainable. I've been doing this for six decades. You know, if it's not sustainable, when's it going to come home to roost?

[Michael Lewis]

This is going to be going to sound like a dumb question. Yeah. You finish a year with a profit of X.

[Chris Andrews]

Okay.

[Michael Lewis]

What percentage of those profits are coming from you're on the right side of risk that you took risk on games versus just being middleman.

[Chris Andrews]

Probably most of it comes from being the middleman. Most. But there's, you know, when you look at, like your board, particularly in football, you want to be on the right side of games. If you see the wise guys on one side, you want to go in with their side. If you can, you see the public on one side. Yeah. You generally don't want to be on that side.

[Michael Lewis]

You see that line up that way often?

[Chris Andrews]

Oh, yeah.

[Michael Lewis]

Smart money on one side.

[Chris Andrews]

Oh, God. Yeah.

[Michael Lewis]

That's really interesting.

[Chris Andrews]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Michael Lewis]

It comes really clear. Does it come clear every game?

[Chris Andrews]

No.

[Michael Lewis]

Okay. Sometimes there's arguments within the smart money.

[Chris Andrews]

I always say it depends on the number.

[Michael Lewis]

Right.

[Chris Andrews]

You know, if a game opened six, then went to seven.

[Michael Lewis]

Yeah.

[Chris Andrews]

The smart guy's laid six, then the other smart guys took seven.

[Michael Lewis]

Right.

[Chris Andrews]

So I'll say, who are the wise guys on? Well, I don't know. What's the number?

[Michael Lewis]

I love talking to these old bookies. And here's one thing I took away from it. The old school bookie isn't someone who does predictive analytics to set the odds. He watches the gamblers as much as he watches the games themselves. The smart gamblers just tell them where to set the lines. It's a different way of thinking. Or as Vinnie Maiolo puts it, people.

[Vinnie Maiolo]

Call us old school. Yeah, well, I take that as a compliment because of the fact that here we are combined 150 years. So we're in this business doing this for all this time. If we didn't make adjustments, then we would be gone.

[Michael Lewis]

Where do you think it's going? Where do you think sports. We think sports gambling is gonna look like in 30 years.

[Jimmy Vaccaro]

There'll be no human beings running it. It'll be all computerized. It's getting there. Now, I would say in five years, what you'll get is like you'll go to a sportsbook, you'll make your bet. But there might be three human beings because you need someone like, you know, whatever. But the other thing is everything else would be you bet on a kiosk, right, or have a phone account, right?

[Michael Lewis]

It's all done by algorithm.

[Jimmy Vaccaro]

I think there's gonna be another big, big rush if the world don't end by next couple of years. Is that okay? Kids 17, 18, 19, 20 years old right now. So let's say we give him three to five years where he's liable. Now he's allowed to go make a bet without any, no parents behind him. So there's a whole new wave coming. It's an all new ballgame, right? I think it's gonna be crazy.

[Michael Lewis]

Thank you again, Jimmy Vaccaro, Chris Andrews and Vinny Maiolo for talking with me. You can find these guys any given day still laying odds and booking bets at South Point in Vegas. Against the Rules is written and hosted by me, Michael Lewis and produced by Lydia Jean Cott, Catherine Girardeau and Ariella Markowitz. Our editor is Julia Barton, our engineer is Sarah Bruguer. Against the Rules is a production of Pushkin Industries. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. And if you'd like to listen, ad free and learn about other exclusive offerings, don't forget to sign up for a Pushkin plus subscription at Pushkin FM plus or on our Apple show page.

[HSBC Representative]

The holiday season is back, which means it's a time for giving. Subaru and its retailers believe in giving back to those who need it most. For the past 17 years, Subaru has made the act of buying a Subaru during the holiday season an act of love. When you purchase or lease a new Subaru during the Subaru Share the Love event, Subaru and its retailers donate a minimum of $300 to charity. By the end of this year's event, Subaru and its retailers will have donated nearly $320 million to national and hometown charities. To learn More, go to subaru.com/subaru More than a Car Company how do you.

[Geico Representative]

Feel when you switch to Geico and save on your car insurance? It's like finishing your laundry and successfully matching all your daughter's baby socks together on the first try.

[Chris Andrews]

Let's see.

[Vinnie Maiolo]

Panda socks, fire truck socks. Socks with those cute little strawberries on them.

[Geico Representative]

You matched each and every one of those tiny socks. I mean, has this ever happened in the history of laundry?

[Vinnie Maiolo]

And a penguin wearing a cowboy hat?

[Healthcare Representative]

Socks.

[Vinnie Maiolo]

Done.

[Geico Representative]

Enjoy the moment, dad. You've earned it. Yep, switching and saving with Geico feels just like that. Get more with Geico.