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- [00:00]
A
I remember watching Shopify evolve as a platform and it really was the Shopify partners that banded together and amplified the brand out there that really, I think, boosted its takeoff in the market. So partners working together can be super powerful. We spend a lot of time educating our prospects and customers on what HubSpot's capable of. And the more we can do that together, the better implementations of HubSpot we can do, the better case studies, the more people we can really get to understand how great the platform is, the more prospects for all of us.
- [00:39]
B
Today's guest is one of the most technically advanced partners in the HubSpot ecosystem, based in Australia. Michelle O', Keefe, co founder and CEO of Engaging IO, made a bold leap into the North American market, carving out an unexpected niche in professional sports. But don't let that fool you. Engaging IO's expertise runs deep across dozens of verticals, especially when it comes to complex like CRM integrations and making AI actually work for real businesses. Michelle brings punk rock energy, radical honesty and a no BS mindset to everything she does. This is one that you won't want to miss. Michelle, you are very welcome to owning the outcome.
- [01:27]
A
Thank you.
- [01:28]
B
I think most partners have heard about Engaging IO who you are in the ecosystem, but still, I think your story is quite remarkable and we'll get into that in a moment. But for those that don't know you, can you maybe share maybe like three points about Engaging that has defined your business?
- [01:46]
A
We've been around a long time, so it feels like 107 years, but it's really 16. But I think that's agency is. So we've been around a long time, have a lot of experience. We're very technical. We have been since day one. And our focus really is on our people first. You know, you spend so much time at work, so it's important to make sure that your people feel supported and that work is somewhere they like to spend their time.
- [02:14]
B
Well, I mean, agency years are like dog years, right? Because you really are, you know, they're worse. You really are in the trenches together sometimes. So I can imagine that is so important to have like a working culture that makes it a fun place to work. One thing about you that I have learned over the years and I find incredibly interesting is that you've broken into the North American professional sports market, but you're based in Australia and I'd love to hear the details of that story. How did American professional sports teams become your ideal customer?
- [02:50]
A
Yeah, and it wasn't really by design, to be honest. I think Australian companies in general, throughout my whole career, we very much tend to think globally. So we always like to think or assume there's other people out there doing things way better than we are. So the benchmark just keeps getting higher and higher for us and we don't tend to believe our own hype. So I think our first introduction to a US based client was just because we had some technical expertise that other partners didn't have. I can't even remember what that was at this point. So we started to spend some time with some HubSpot folks in the US and we saw that there was an opportunity for us there. Sports. I think we realized we had to verticalise. We don't verticalise in apac. We don't really need to. We've been here, as I said, forever. I have two kids that are named after AFL players and there is a lot of love of sport within the organization and my family as well. And the other thing I think was we thought if we're going to break into this market at all, we have to have a killer case study. And you know, sports teams are pretty helpful logos, to be honest. So we made the decision, we got an opportunity with an NBA team and we decided to over service them as much as was physically possible to make sure we had a very good case study.
- [04:15]
B
One thing that I've been dying to ask you actually is sports teams are notoriously protective of fan data and competitive information. How did you manage to build the trust with your first major clients to kind of get that out of them? And what frameworks did you have to develop to like build that kind of trust? Because I actually been dying to ask you that question.
- [04:38]
A
I mean, trust is big no matter who you're working with. We tend to work with complex organizations anyway. So I think that's an element that they all have and certainly is something that we try to develop as early in the sales process as we can. Because the fact of the matter is once a license is signed, they're stuck with us. And you know, the success of the project is based on how we both work together. Can we both work together, are we going to be able to solve problems as they arise and those sorts of things. And I think being really open and honest about what that process is going to look like, what we need from them for us to succeed and committing to succeed for them and with them is really important. And honestly, the most powerful moments I've had building trust are when, and this is for another professional sports organization was having to have A moment where around 20, I think, people on their side. There was one that was a detractor and I had to have a conversation saying, we need to get this right for you. Like, there is no fail here. I'm not going to put us in that position. I'm certainly not going to put you all in that position. So let's sort this out. We want good things. Let's sort that out. So sometimes uncomfortable conversations can actually lead to, you know, converting some people into advocates and believers that possibly weren't before.
- [06:09]
B
I think, like what you're, you're pointing out there is one of the most important things for HubSpot when it comes to our partners. They are trusted partners of customers and they build that trust and they're incredibly important. Would you say that's a niche for you in terms of professional sports or what other defining factors do you look at when you want to work with customers?
- [06:28]
A
Yeah, it's, it's funnily enough, not, I mean, we had to verticalize, I think, to try and get some cut through. And then the irony was that we're known as, we only work with sports teams now over in, in North America. So that's not the case. Again, just having done this sort of work and not always on HubSpot, back in the day, it was on all sorts of CRMs and custom platforms. We've got a lot of experience, a lot of case studies. We've got finance, SAs, property, food and beverage experiences, all sorts of verticals that we specialize in. I think the common denominators really tend to be more complex use cases. So whether that's from a technical perspective, so a custom integration is needed, or advice on how to architect an overall tech stack or organizational complexity and trying to, you know, get deep and work through those challenges, potentially optimize those if we can, but make sure that those, that the technology that needs to support those complex processes works the way it needs to.
- [07:37]
B
So I want to, I want to get into the AI topics because obviously you're both in the NZ market and you're in the us. What is the demand out there like for AI services in your customer base and what are you asked for most frequently that to implement when it comes to the customers you're dealing with.
- [07:56]
A
It's funny because I think people, you know, think of AI as this magic pill and it's going to solve all my problems or take a lot of my costs away. And when I, you know, sort of first thought about it, all I thought about was, oh, my God, People aren't going to clean their data, they've got dirty data. They're going to blame the AI, they're not ready for this, they don't have any sort of policies around usage internally. So I bought a bit of negativity to it, to be honest and I do very strongly believe that people need to clean their data. And I understand at this point most of the customers that we work with don't have budgets to undertake those projects, but you're going to need to save up up to do those or else the AI isn't really, it's not going to work. But I think across the board for the most part people, it's a lot in the information. What does AI look like for my business? How do I use it, where do I use it, what do I use? What is good? I mean these sorts of things are changing on a daily basis and it can be really overwhelming for everyone, including us as well. So we actually set up an internal AI committee of a cross functional. So you know, we've got marketers, we've got our solutions consultants, we've got our tech team, everyone in there. We tested out a whole bunch of AI and worked out what we were going to commit to for the next sort of six months and see what impact it had on our business. And we are now going to share that with the broader community. We've got a, what we call a no bullshit to basically say here is what we went through, here's how we did it over to you. You can borrow that and use that however you like to, but within a few guardrails of you just got to stick to something for a little while and see work out. Is it fitting your success metrics and take it seriously. There's people are going to make mistakes on this technology. Just plan as much as you can to make sure it's not you. So you know, security data, all those sorts of things that we should be thinking about anyway but are more important than ever.
- [10:10]
B
I'm curious when you tell or you know, clean your data, clean your data and it's something I hear a lot of. I think it's the root of all evil, right? Because as you probably point out, the data is bad. The AI won't work. When you tell clients to clean your data, what's the most common data hygiene issue that you encounter and kind of what's your go to first step then? To kind of bring the customer around to realizing they need to actually clean the data.
- [10:35]
A
It's still a really hard conversation to be Honest and something that either they say they're going to do but don't really take seriously or want us to do for them, but it really requires a team effort and it does require budget. So especially if you want someone else to do it for you. So I'm still finding that conversation quite difficult and challenging and I think kind of similar to websites back in the day, sometimes people need to go through a bad experience before they really appreciate the value. Value of doing things or spending money on. On certain items. So that's kind of what I'm thinking at the moment. I hope I'm wrong, but we'll see.
- [11:16]
B
And I suppose as you help other people clean house and understand how they can use AI, how are you thinking about growth within your own team and company when it comes to AI?
- [11:25]
A
Yeah, it's. I mean we're very open about as a management team and our culture. I'm sure that comes as no surprise to you, but we're very open with our own teams as well. And I was. There was still a little bit of trepidation on what is going to mean for us, you know, will we still have jobs? And it's like of course you'll still have jobs. That's not. Would never be consideration for me. It's more what's it going to allow you to be able to do now that you couldn't do yesterday and the mundane stuff, repetitive stuff, or get to a point of delight with a customer quicker than you could, you know, without AI. So we worked out pretty quick. We needed to be really open with the whole team around what the journey was going to look like, what things we going to try. Let's get people's input, make sure it works for them. So really the way we're leveraging it at the moment is to elevate the humans so that they're working human to human and you know, as you would know a lot of those functions that the AI will not be good at, but get using that to support, to support their processes, their admin and you know, getting to outcomes quicker.
- [12:35]
B
You have a very strong band and in my view it's about being willing to tell it like it is. You're a PAC member, you're often tapped to speak up about HubSpot and how we can improve our program and processes. I'd love to know how you developed those leadership qualities and how would you define your style.
- [12:56]
A
I didn't have a voice growing up, so I had to make one. I spent a lot of time on my own growing up I loved punk rock music, loved going to see punk rock bands and jumping around a mosh pit. I still do that on a strategic. And I'm the oldest in the mosh pit by about 100 years as well. But it's core to who I am. So I do. I want to speak up, I want to help people. I want to champion people that don't have a voice. And that kind of has infiltrated my whole life. My teenage boys don't love it as much as other people do. But for better or worse, I can't not speak up. I can't be that person. And I'm sure there are many times where, yeah, I probably should sit back and zip it. And I'm trying to get more skillful at it the older I get. But my view is if I can use that outspokenness to at least make things easier for some other people around me. So I spent a lot of time advocating for women in tech, women in the workplace in general, all sorts of areas, wherever I can. You know, if I can use that loudness to make things a little bit easier or to cut through or to get someone to think a little bit more, a little bit differently, I guess, and more inclusively, then I'm pretty comfortable with that.
- [14:17]
B
So since we're on the top of keeping it real and no bs, right, what do you think is just hype when it comes to AI? What's. What's your, your honest answer to that question?
- [14:28]
A
Yeah, it's not magic, and it's not going to solve all your problems without you putting in any effort to those problems. And I think, you know, you see people jumping into it at, at varying pace. I've even had prospects say to me, can you just turn it all off? I want HubSpot, but just turn off all the AI because it freaks me out. It's like, okay, so I think that's, you know, if anything, you need more rigor now than you had before from a technology perspective, and it's less exciting and it's a bit to think about, but it's the reality, I think, of using AI, you don't want to be the one that makes a really big mistake with your data or, you know, the wrong data appearing in a chat with a prospect that, you know, has a zero missing on the price or something like that, you know, so there are some tangible outcomes here, and I think, unfortunately, everyone needs to take it seriously.
- [15:29]
B
I wouldn't end our conversation without mentioning how incredibly generous you are, both with your insights to HubSpot and to other partners in the ecosystem. And we know that you often collaborate with our teams to pitch or, you know, with incoming partners on why HubSpot is the best place to grow your business. So you're such a great ambassador for us. Like I mentioned before, you're on pack. Why is that spirit of generosity and openness core a core value of yours?
- [15:58]
A
It's not just generosity and openness. It's. I remember watching, you know, Shopify evolve as a platform, and it really was the Shopify partners that banded together and amplified the brand out there that really, I think, boosted its takeoff in the market. So partners working together can be super powerful. And I think a lot of partners that have been a little around a little while in the HubSpot ecosystem will know that it's been really hard to like. There's a lot of education we need to do with prospects around. You know, HubSpot's come a long way since marketing automation routes and those sorts of things. And, you know, the, oh, it's not as powerful as Salesforce and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We spend a lot of time educating our prospects and customers on what HubSpot's capable of. And the more we can do that together, the better implementations of HubSpot we can do, the better case studies, the more people we can really get to understand how great the platform is, the more prospects for all of us. So I do truly believe that it's also can be such a lonely space to be as a partner, especially as you're starting out. I can't even imagine what it's like for a lot of new partners now. Things are a lot harder to, you know, tear up and grow your business today than they were 16 years ago. You know, you don't have to do it alone, share conversations, you know, find someone to vent to, talk to someone who's done it and failed before. That's one thing that I like talking about, is all of the mistakes that we've made over the journey and suggest that maybe other people don't make those same mistakes or at least, you know, listen to that advice. So I think, I think having other partners to talk to and work with means we all do good work. It means we help each other. It means we're not working in isolation.
- [17:54]
B
And what about the program? What would you like to see from the program in the next six months?
- [17:59]
A
Again, the transparency has always been there from HubSpot. And there's a lot of change going on in tech. I mean, if you're starting an agency and you're starting an agency in tech, you know that things are going to change quite rapidly. But you know, we've hitched, hitched ourselves to, you know, this big vendor that is also growing and finding its place in the market as well. So I think the ability for, for you all to be really open with us about what that is and where that is and where you're headed and what you need from us is so invaluable. Again, it's not for everyone. I think it's just if you're going into agency world, you just change is a constant. So there's not a lot of point complaining about it, to be honest. You either you have a decision to make, you get on board or you get off board. So I think that openness is just so important. And listening like you all listen to us again, we try not to whinge for the sake of whinging most of the time, but you listen to us. We have people to talk to. You Sarah, are so open and honest with me as well. If I need a reality check or because as I said, it can be a lonely place to be sometimes. Just that ability to talk to someone, get a sense check or vent or whatever it might be is just so invaluable.
- [19:25]
B
I think I remember calling you from under my daughter's Peppa pig duvet at some point on WhatsApp in the early morning. And so one final question for you. I'm listening to this podcast and I'm thinking about becoming a HubSpot partner. Or maybe I'm a partner already. What advice would you have for partners who want to grow to be the next engaging IO?
- [19:47]
A
It's really hard for partners to say no to anything. It's a really uncomfortable place to be. But it can mean that we do end up in, in crazy places sometimes. And I've had to remind myself of this a few times over the journey is that narrowing your focus helps for all of the reasons really. So pick something that you are really good at or that your organization is really good at, a strength that you have and follow that. I know you know, it can be, oh, but I can do websites and I can do this and I can do data lakes. It's like just do one thing really well first because what that gives you is, well, the knowledge, the experience, but the, the demonstrated experience and case studies which is going to help you win the next one. And then, you know, plan as much as you can for how that's going to evolve over time, what skillset you want to grow or expand into. But really, you have to do the good work. And to do that, I think the easiest thing to do is to specialize a little bit more in something you're already good at. Don't pick a new thing and try and start from scratch with that. You can do it on the side, but make sure that your core business is something you're really good at.
- [21:02]
B
Awesome. Well, Michelle, it's always a pleasure. Thank you for joining us on on the Edco.