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- [00:01]
Kevin Dunn
Hi folks. Welcome to agency unfiltered, the HubSpot Solutions Partner Podcast. I'm your host Kevin Dunn and Agency Unfiltered is a weekly web series and podcast that interviews the owners, founders and executives of agencies and services providers from around the world about whatever it takes to grow and scale. This week we have on Brian de Koning and Duncan Craig, partners at raka. We start with raca's journey through the partner program and as an agency who has been a part of the program since 2012. Brian and Duncan share how they've seen the program evolve and change over time and how they've evolved their team along with it. We then turn our attention to Raka Health, a new verticalized sub brand launched and geared towards healthcare and life science brands. They discussed the launch and how they made the call to formalize this specialization with its own brand. And with the launch of Raqa Health, they share the changes they had to make structurally, operationally within their processes and to their overall go to market strategy to support. And lastly, we dig into their expertise within healthcare to talk HIPAA compliance, specifically with HubSpot. We talk about implementation for their healthcare clients that supports and needs their needs regarding HIPAA and data privacy. They share their approach from the discovery and sales perspective all the way through tech stacks integrations and HubSpot data modeling. Another episode of Agency Unfiltered begins right now. Hey guys, welcome to Agency Unfiltered. How we doing?
- [01:46]
Brian de Koning
Doing great.
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Duncan Craig
Great. Yeah, thanks for having us.
- [01:48]
Kevin Dunn
You betcha. Excited to have you both on the podcast. Excited to get the rocket perspective, obviously, decade plus or so, maybe 10, 12 years in the program. So I'm sure, you know, you've seen quite a bit, you've experienced quite a bit. So I'm excited to, to extract the knowledge and know how that I came from you guys. But I think, you know, obviously we know it's a, it's a pretty great fall day in New England. Hopefully that's true when this actually comes out. But how's the start of Q4 going for, for you both and for the agency?
- [02:19]
Duncan Craig
Yeah, it's going well. I mean, I feel like we're building on the momentum that we've, we've established, you know, earlier in the year and just hoping to finish the year strong and HubSpot's a big part of that, big part of what we do. But you know, we're excited to be here and chat about it and looking forward to, to the end of this year and then building into the next year.
- [02:45]
Kevin Dunn
That's excellent. Well, happy Q4 to you both. Hopefully it's fruitful and then it sets you up well going into the new year. Now I know too. And we'll get there. Rocca obviously launched a sub brand, Rocka Health. It sounds like there's some deep alignment and expertise into like the healthcare vertical. I think we'll get there, but maybe the best place to start again decade plus in the program. From the day you join the partner.
- [03:08]
Brian de Koning
Program.
- [03:10]
Kevin Dunn
Was it always the plan to go all in on HubSpot? Were you platform agnostic at a point? Were you always aligned 100% to HubSpot? Give me a sense of, you know, the lay of the land, where you were at the onset of your journey with HubSpot.
- [03:22]
Duncan Craig
Sure, sure, I can start with that. But I'd love to hear Duncan's perspective too, because our. I think our perspectives have shifted over the years, you know. So we started as a HubSpot partner in 2012. Right. And that's when I joined Raka. Raka had been around since 2004 as a very successful digital marketing agency doing a lot of website design and development, animations and custom programming and platform development. So when I joined in 2012, we started focusing quite a bit more on content marketing. Right. Inbound marketing, and began doing that for ourselves and then doing that for clients as a service. And HubSpot was obviously a tool that I was aware of for, you know, being in the industry for a few years and then also, you know, having the good fortune of being right in HubSpot's backyard. So back in those days, we used to go to networking events, you know, got a few signed copies of Dharmesh and Brian Halligan's book early on.
- [04:27]
Kevin Dunn
Yeah.
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Duncan Craig
And we were, we were inspired by all that, of course. So.
- [04:31]
Brian de Koning
So.
- [04:31]
Duncan Craig
But when we first started working with HubSpot as a partner in 2012, you know, it was one of the tools we used, along with several others that we all know about, to support our clients. And we started doing it for ourselves using HubSpot for ourselves. The tool has changed drastically since then. Evolved, right?
- [04:52]
Kevin Dunn
For sure.
- [04:53]
Duncan Craig
Yeah. So it was marketing automation at that time and that's. That's what we were working with. So we would use HubSpot for some of our clients, we would use other tools like Marketo, et cetera. And as we got more experience with HubSpot and the software evolved and just became, you know, better and offered more and had more functionality and we started to learn more about the partner program, we decided that, you know, it was a really good fit for us. So we were sort of a reluctant partner at first. You know, it wasn't, it wasn't like our plan to be, be Diamond HubSpot Solutions partner then. But as we used it more, we determined HubSpot was the right fit for us and that we really wanted to be experts or really good at one sort of platform. Right. So we made the choice to go with HubSpot. The time we really decided to go all in on HubSpot was later on when the content management system evolved a little bit more. Um, but you know, our early journey was it was about learning how to use the, the tool itself, providing the best services we could for our clients and then realizing that HubSpot was, was the tool and, and the organization, actually the culture that, that we really wanted to align ourselves with.
- [06:24]
Kevin Dunn
I love that you called out both the product, but yeah, I mean it's a good point that it's like, well, is it the type of company that we'd want to, you know, invest in a partnership with? Yeah, I love that call out. How about yourself, Doug? I have a follow up question, but I don't want to speak over if you have some added commentary.
- [06:37]
Brian de Koning
Yeah, just a little bit. I thought Brian answered that perfectly and accurately. But you know, one thing is there was a time period when we first started working or using HubSpot with our clients where we had to do a lot of education around what HubSpot was, what inbound marketing was, why it was important to do it. And a lot of times we were sort of adding this on to a website project or a project that they came to us for something else. And we were like, you really should be doing this too. If you really want to maximize your investment in your website and actually grow your business, here's how, how we can help you. And it's going to involve using something called HubSpot. And we had to do a lot of education around that. And there was a shift several years ago where we didn't have to really explain what HubSpot was or what inbound marketing was. And you know, people understood it. People just sort of had heard about it and, and understood that this was something they should be investing in. And that also sort of played into our shift as we were doing a lot less sort of convincing of people and a lot more sort of vetting of is is this going to. Or do they fully understand exactly what HubSpot does and how we can use it to help them? And if so, that's a great fit for us if we're really having to push them into it, maybe it's not a great fit. And that also helped us to make the shift into saying we should be doing pretty much all HubSpot work because those are the perfect clients for us, the people that understand the value and the power of the system.
- [08:08]
Kevin Dunn
It's interesting. You guys have been, you know, part of the ecosystem in the partner community for long enough. You, you were able to feel that switch or the transition. Right. Super interesting to hear.
- [08:17]
Duncan Craig
Yeah, yeah. A lot of our sales pitches in those days prior to like 2017, I would say involved a lot of education. Right. So this is inbound marketing. This is why you need it. This is why it's a good thing is HubSpot. So yeah, that, that shift, it happened almost within like one, a year's period around 2017 or so.
- [08:36]
Kevin Dunn
Yeah. So talking to you guys about how this, the, the update to the CMS or like the enhancement of features within our cms, you know, that triggered, you know, the decision to maybe go all in on HubSpot. It was kind of that product rollout and so that, you know, more broadly, I guess my, my question there would be how has RAKA taken the product announcements or the expansion of the HubSpot platform over time? Right. When you joined, it was marketing automation. A lot of marketing tools. We know it's, it's increased in breadth and depth now. I think coming out of this inbound. Right. A number of partners are probably thinking about how to maximize commerce hub. And so what has been the playbook or how has RACA found success in taking a look at new hubs or new product launches and figuring out how to evolve or transition or add to your service offerings. Right. To it to account for the changes.
- [09:26]
Duncan Craig
Yeah. So it's always difficult for agencies for HubSpot Solutions partners to stay up to speed with everything that's happening because it happens so quickly. HubSpot iterates, evolves at a rapid pace, but what we try to do is to just pay attention to the updates as they're announced and look for the things that are really applicable to our current clients and then kind of focus on those. You know, we're a 25 person agency and we do have folks who are dedicated as HubSpot specialists, but we try to get up to speed as quickly as we can and then to kind of translate that for our clients, you know, and help them filter through what's really going to be valuable for their individual organizations, for their businesses and for their goals. So that's how we approach it. We also try and get in and use everything that we can as soon as possible. You know, there are things that come out that we're not always up to date on and we have to play a little catch up. That happens. There used to be a time where we could, you know, a person could be an expert in HubSpot. Right.
- [10:37]
Kevin Dunn
But it would be more challenging to have that one person.
- [10:40]
Duncan Craig
Yeah, yeah. So, you know, you have different niche niches within HubSpot where, you know, somebody might be an expert in a certain hub or in databases or in development or what have you or, you know, integrations or migrations. So we try to stay up to speed. We look for the things that we think are going to be beneficial for our clients and then we sort of focus on those things and roll them out. On the flip side of that, we'll adjust our services to provide, you know, support of new hubs as they come along. We'll also look for ways to provide education and just information to our clients and to our team as HubSpot unveils new features and functionality.
- [11:25]
Kevin Dunn
No, that's great. How about you, Duncan? I never want to step over you, but yeah, hey, no notes. I got plenty on my end.
- [11:34]
Brian de Koning
That was a great answer. I can give another quick sort of add on to that, which is that we have really three distinct teams within raca, the strategy and content team, the user experience and design team and, and the development team. And each team is empowered to really sort of dig into the tools as they come out, new features and everything like that, and be. And bring it, bring it to the entire group and say, hey, you know, there's this new functionality that was just introduced into the CMS hub and it's really going to be great because we can do X, Y and Z with it now. And so it's not only sort of digging in just overall, but having the specialists on our team really take a look at the things that they're going to be working in and find the things that are going to be meaningful and then bring it to everyone's attention so that we can, we can get out there and talk to clients about it and, and you know, find, find the good fits for it.
- [12:29]
Kevin Dunn
Nope. Yeah, makes sense. Now I want to get to the, the rollout or the launch of Rock A Health. One last question though. I think, I mean, you guys can probably agree to this, but you know, over 12 years, 10 years or so in the program, it's probably not just the product announcements that you've had to Adapt with and evolve with. But obviously, you know, programmatically, right. Maybe some structure as to how the partner program operates or what we look for partners to do. And so, you know, not just product, but again, programmatic changes, probably some that you were psyched about, maybe others that, that you weren't so psyched about. But any tips or tricks, again, as a long standing partner on how businesses can adapt to the rolling changes or to, you know, where and how the program may evolve? Right.
- [13:14]
Duncan Craig
Yeah. Duncan, do you want to take that one or you want me to.
- [13:17]
Brian de Koning
I want you to, Brian.
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Duncan Craig
Okay.
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Brian de Koning
You served on the partner advisory council, so you should.
- [13:23]
Duncan Craig
You should.
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Brian de Koning
Really?
- [13:24]
Kevin Dunn
Yeah. You got a front row seat.
- [13:25]
Brian de Koning
You got a front row seat.
- [13:27]
Duncan Craig
I did. I. So we were on the first partner advisory committee, I think that was about 2017. And at that time it was individuals. Right. Now they list out the companies that are take part in it. We're not on it at the moment, but you, Duncan, and or I had to make a decision because we thought we were both going to do it. So we had to make a decision as to who would represent Rocca and I. Luckily I got that high stakes.
- [13:53]
Kevin Dunn
Rock, Paper, Scissors or How did you, you know, Indian leg or how.
- [13:56]
Brian de Koning
Something like that. Yeah, yeah.
- [13:59]
Duncan Craig
And one of the things we got was a rain jacket. It was a pretty sweet marmot rain jacket and they came to me because they only sent one. And Duncan, Duncan, had I known there.
- [14:09]
Brian de Koning
Would have been a jacket involved, I would have fought harder to be on.
- [14:12]
Kevin Dunn
Yeah, that's an important criteria to be able to make the decision off of. Like, all right, let's talk about swag coming through.
- [14:16]
Brian de Koning
Yeah, exactly.
- [14:18]
Duncan Craig
But, you know, we've, we've been lucky to work with some really fantastic people at HubSpot over the years, including, you know, couple of our outstanding cams that we've had. Andrew Fazon, who's our current cam, and then Jill Fradiani was our first cam. And we got to work with Jill for about five years actually, maybe more. But they really helped us with the changes that took place when we were just starting out. We work with Andrew now and he's been fantastic to give us a heads up to help us prepare for changes and things like that. And then we've also worked with the channel consultant Guillaume Delou, who for several years, who's also been a really great advocate for us on the HubSpot side and helped us to plan out how to navigate different changes and rules changes to the partnership program. The recent changes that have come, you know, it was A big, big shock to a lot of partners. A big change, especially the way commissions are paid out and those sorts of things. Rocco was, was positioned pretty well for, for that change that took place earlier this year. So we were, you know, we were already doing a lot things that HubSpot was recommending. Those things were sourcing your own, you know, deals, new prospects, not solely relying on HubSpot for referrals and things like that. Not to say anyone who, who had structured their agency that way was, you know, not doing a great job building their business. We just happened to be in the situation where the rules changes did not impact us negatively. Right. So what I would say for advice to other partners who are considering working with HubSpot or working with HubSpot is, you know, it's fantastic to go all in on HubSpot and be, you know, part of the ecosystem and build your business around that. But you also have to have some structure in place to, to be able to roll with those changes, you know, especially if your revenues based on HubSpot commissions and things like that, because that can change at any time. We try to be open to the changes that HubSpot announces. It's a big, big job for the management team of HubSpot to always be balancing the interests of the partner community with the interests of the clients, their direct customers. And I think we understand that. So we try to be a good partner, you know, be a partner that HubSpot can rely on. We really try to do that with the best of intentions and then also not rely too heavily on HubSpot. I'm not sure that's the answer that you were looking for.
- [17:17]
Kevin Dunn
It's a helpful tip. Hey, it's agency unfiltered. We'll take it. You know. Yeah, I think if I had to cherry pick a few things out of that. Right. First, it sounds like building really strong relationships with, with the points of contact you may have at HubSpot and leverage them as a resource. Right. To help navigate as things evolve or change. It sounds like second, maybe operationally account for change. The only constant is change. And so having some malleability and preparedness so you can be agile in that way. And it sounds like the third piece was don't wind down the demand gen machine or your team's ability to source, you know, your own deals or opportunities. It sounds like that, that played a major role in having you guys, you know, be set up for success here or feeling good about, you know, 2023, 2024 and beyond.
- [18:04]
Duncan Craig
Yeah, absolutely. And I think a fourth thing those are. That's a really succinct way you summarize that. I appreciate that, Kevin. I think a fourth thing is, is to take advantage of the opportunities that HubSpot does offer. So with the new accreditations they've rolled out in the last couple few years, those are really chances for a partner to different to be really strong in one discipline or implementations or migrations or what have you. So look for those opportunities and find the ones that fit your agency. I think is another approach you can take.
- [18:40]
Kevin Dunn
Yeah, that's a. It's a really great tip. Thanks for adding that fourth one in. And yes, couldn't agree more with accreditations. Believe strongly in that. That program. I know. I mean, Rocca could probably speak to this too. Not something that, that you can do quickly or haphazardly. I know it's quite the time commitment requires a healthy amount of effort and bandwidth from the team, you know, contribution. So, you know, plan forward accordingly. But it certainly bears fruit if you're able to successfully go through that process.
- [19:06]
Duncan Craig
Yeah. And to support the accreditation effort. We're going through it for a couple right now, but we've, we've earned. We've earned one as well. I would say document what you're doing. You know, look for big projects that, you know, will. Will be good case studies for the accreditations. And then as you're going through them, pay special attention to documentation. How did we do this? What was the challenge? What was the approach we took? Because you'll need that information when it comes time to apply for accreditations.
- [19:37]
Kevin Dunn
That's a great tip. Now, before I give us the transition here in topic, I first just need to. I just need. I need to know what team you guys are on. Are you niche or niche?
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Brian de Koning
I bet we're on opposite. I'm on team niche. So you're niche, Duncan. Yeah.
- [19:53]
Kevin Dunn
Brian, you're telling me your niche.
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Duncan Craig
All right, I'm team niche.
- [19:56]
Kevin Dunn
Neither team gets, you know, Marmont Rain Jacket. So it's, you know, there's no. But obviously, you know, with the launch of Rock A Health. Right. My assumption here is that you've built a catalog of, you know, accounts or clients in that space. You tend to do tremendous work. You're really starting to align yourselves with that vertical. But, but how do you. Or how should other partners think about, you know, maybe their niche or their industry alignment? And is there a tipping point towards like, hey, you know, is there an opportunity for like a sub brand or something there? So talk me. Just give us an idea of what Raka Health is, how it's different from the standard Raka branding and then the decision making criteria. When you know, all right, let's, let's sub brand this out, not just be deeply aligned with that industry. You know what I mean?
- [20:44]
Brian de Koning
Yeah, absolutely. And when we started Rocket in 2004, our first couple of clients were health care clients. They just happened to be. And in fact, they're both still clients here almost 20 years later. And both HubSpot clients as well. We've brought them, brought them into the HubSpot world, but it's just something that we've, that we've always had in, in our sort of the industries we work in. And we, for, for years we didn't specialize and we don't. Outside of RACA Health, we really don't only work with specific industries. There are certainly some that we work with more than others. But a lot of times we just look at the company, individualized company, and say, is this a company that needs our services, that sort of sees us as experts and can we, can we actually move the needle for them? Can we help them out more so than, you know, are they selling to this exact type of customer or.
- [21:43]
Kevin Dunn
Because I know a number of partners too will be like, hey, this is the industry, or the verticals we support will actually say no or decline business if they don't fall in right to that ICP or that vertical. That's not where Rocca operates necessarily.
- [21:56]
Brian de Koning
Right? Yeah, yeah. We look more at the company as, you know, the individual company and see if that company is a good fit for us. But that said, you know, you do enough work and you start to see patterns where you're working with specific, specific industries more than others. Healthcare is one of those for us. And over the years we've just gained a lot of experience and understanding in healthcare, which is a really special sort of industry. It's regulated. You have to be careful how you market it, especially if you're marketing to patients, not only from a privacy standpoint, but also just from a sort of making sure that you're being sensitive standpoint. And so we've learned a lot over the years of exactly how to market healthcare in that sensitive and private and regulated way. And a couple of years ago we took a look at that and said, you know, we do all this work for healthcare, we have all this expertise and people come to us specifically because we understand how to navigate the world of regulation for healthcare. We really should be out there more and talking about this and that's what really made the shift for us is being able to say, not that this is going to be the only industry we focus on, but that we are very good at this industry and we should really capitalize on that and, and put it out there so people really understand that healthcare, like any other industry, you know, they like to see that you get their industry, that you know what, what it's like there, that you know what their customers expect, that you know what their partners and other businesses expect. And so, so that, that's been really important for us. And also as we, as HIPAA compliance becomes more of a factor with digital marketing and, and everything that that sort of encompasses, we want to show that, that we understand how to navigate that world as well.
- [23:53]
Kevin Dunn
I'm glad you brought up Pippa. I want to put a pin in that. I have a few follow up questions. I'm sure there's going to be some tips or recommendations that others can, can borrow just based on your experience there. But it sounds like the decision for Rocket Health is less about, you know, less on the agency side as being, oh, that is a vertical we're deeply aligned with, therefore we should have a separate brand. It's more so, and correct me if I'm wrong, how specialized or unique a particular industry or vertical is and how important it is for you to be able that, to demonstrate that you have the expertise, you speak that language, right? You have that specialization. As we know healthcare, there's a lot of regulatory compliance, you know, type issues that you need to be an expert in. Is that a fair assessment or reflection back?
- [24:34]
Brian de Koning
So, yeah, yeah, it's, it's really about giving confidence to, to healthcare companies that we know what we're doing and, and you can come to us and have faith that we're going to be able to work with your compliance team and be able to speak that language while also being able to understand your patients and what they're, what they're searching for and what they're going to look for from an experience with your website or with, with your marketing and how we can then translate that into getting people to become leads and then what we do with their data if they become patients and things.
- [25:06]
Kevin Dunn
Now when the decisions made to roll out Roca Health, what if anything had to change internally, structurally, operationally. So how do you staff manage, support that sub brand with the existing Rocket team?
- [25:21]
Duncan Craig
Yeah, it's a great question. It's a challenge that we are, we're, you know, learning about and evolving our answer to one of the things that we've done is to create a team dedicated to, to marketing that organization and understanding the messaging and the way we speak about it, what our clients for Raka Health are most interested in. So we've done that. We've got a dedicated group that supports Raka Health and also has experience working on healthcare brands and is sort of the go to team for Raka Healthcare. The other things that we've done include some adjustments with our own HubSpot portal to set up. You know, we had to, we built a new website, designed and built a new website for it, but also just shifting some of the ways that we manage contacts and manage our database to be able to tag health clients and prospects and make things a little bit easier for our team to be able to use. In terms of staffing up, you know, we made the decision that we've got a great team of talented people here and the skills that we need to serve our non healthcare clients are applicable to the skills that we need to serve health clients. So we've really drawn some lines but there's a great deal of flexibility so we can pull in different types of team members to provide different services. For example, developers can work on a health client as well as a non health client pretty easily. It's more along the lines of marketers, the people who are producing copy, planning out marketing strategies and really having to keep the sensitivity in mind for prospective patients or maybe more sensitive topics and HIPAA management. So we've got a dedicated group that works on that, but they still also work on some other clients as well.
- [27:21]
Kevin Dunn
Nasi Valentin. That makes a ton of sense. And you actually, you teed that up too, to be like, hey, this is kind of how we're approaching it. Obviously we're, we're, we're learning as well, you know, as, as we go from the decision. Maybe it was like a leadership off site. You're like, you know, we're going to do this thing, we're going to roll out Rocket Health from that point to the official rollout, staffing, support, the full brand, et cetera. I mean, how, what's the time frame? How long does that take to, to spin up?
- [27:47]
Brian de Koning
Yeah, that's a good question. You know, it took, it took a little while because we sort of, we wanted to think it through quite a bit and make sure that it was the right move for us, make sure that we, that we really did it carefully. We had plenty of healthcare work. It wasn't like we had to, you know, run out and try to drum up a lot of Business. And so we want to do it carefully. We also try to run in terms of decision making. We try to run a fairly flat organization. Of course, leadership sort of makes the final call on things and, and often is bringing things to the table. But we want to get buy in from, from really the whole team. And that, that was important to us on this as well. We rolled out the idea but then really made it a company wide brainstorm and saying how should we do this? What are we not thinking of? How is this going to benefit the, you know, RACA as a whole? And you know, are there any pitfalls we should be concerned about? And by getting buy in on, on sort of a major decision like that, we were able to really come up with the best way to roll it out and take our time doing it and put together the right marketing strategy and the right website and all the right tools in place. And, and so it took us some time and that was okay with us. We really wanted to, to think it through strategically as a group.
- [29:02]
Kevin Dunn
Yeah, yep. No, of course, yeah, that makes a ton of sense now.
- [29:07]
Duncan Craig
Yeah, I would say it was about a year right from when we started planning it until we, we launched a site or so, maybe more. The experience I've been building for years, you know, in the approach that we take for sure. But, but it, you know, it was Duncan's idea. It was a great idea and he had it and he kind of introduced it to some of the team and said, what do you guys think? We kind of worked to evolve it and then rolled it out to the wider team as, as an initiative and then did a strategy, a marketing strategy, an operations strategy, and then put it in place. It was about a year, I would say.
- [29:43]
Kevin Dunn
Well, I mean it's, it's, it's a good point too that there's, you know, multiple layers to it. It's like, well, you have to build up the client base and the expertise. Of course that was years in the making. The actual, you know, the, the systems are like, all right, how do we actually spin up the website? And some other things like the actual tactical components. Maybe a year or so. But over time too, it sounds like you were shopping the idea, getting some team wide buy in, like you wanted to rally the troops behind it. So yeah, I think all that makes a ton of sense now. You guys also spoke to again, this was more about the partner program, but the importance of sourcing and demand gen and prospecting and, but are those also the components that you're benchmarking the success of Rocket Health against or like, you know, what are the primary KPIs, how are you hoping to, you know, benchmark or what are you looking at to ensure that, you know, a sub brand like Rocket Health is successful?
- [30:31]
Duncan Craig
Yeah, I'll address the marketing part of that first, I think so. You know, we've set goals for leads generated website traffic, engagements on social and things like that. As I mentioned, we've got some segmentation happening in our database and HubSpot make sure that we know which clients are Raca Health and which are classic brca. So there were a lot of things that we did there. We did set some goals and we're measuring against those in the traditional way. We would run a monthly retainer, so so we report against those each month from an operation standpoint or revenue or number of clients. We've set some goals there. But it's the type of thing where we already had a bunch of health clients and so we're looking to build that and add to it. So it's not so much like we have a startup and it's a brand new technology or a piece of software or an app or something. It's more like, hey, we're really good at this and we've been doing it for a while so we want people to know that this is an expertise for us. So we've got some marketing goals, but it's not necessarily a make or break situation where we have to set clear revenue goals for RakaHealth in that way.
- [31:55]
Kevin Dunn
Yeah, yeah. It's a really good distinction between, well, yes, spinning up startup. Right. Starting from scratch, zero versus like, hey, how do we make sure the market is aware of the expertise that we already own and can prove and can validate? And honestly, I think you brought up a good point too. If we think about the benefits, the value add you mentioned. Well, our systems and our marketing strategies are set up in a way that we segment out. Right. Rock of Health versus classic Rock. I love that. But so it sounds like if anything from a marketing perspective, you're getting the right messages, the relevant messages in the right, you know, using the right taxonomy to the right, to the right, you know, recipients. Is that like the marketing, is that the biggest value add that you've seen?
- [32:32]
Duncan Craig
I feel like it is just being able to tell that story and being able to quickly have that conversation with new prospects in the healthcare industry. Because as I'm sure any of the partners who work in the HubSpot Solutions Partner Program will say, a common question is, what have you done in Our industry, regardless of the industry, it comes up a lot for professional services. So if, if there are prospects in the marketplace, in the ecosystem and just talking to get word of mouth suggestions from industry leaders and things like that, having that hook to explain that we have deep experience in healthcare has, has really been important for us and that's, that's sort of the differentiator that we're looking for. We know we can do all of these things very well. We just want that brand awareness and that to be known as the HubSpot partner who can really support healthcare marketing.
- [33:34]
Kevin Dunn
Yeah, makes sense. Now I think Duncan, you had mentioned HIPAA compliance, so let's get there. How do you implement HubSpot for your clients healthcare in a way that maintains HIPAA compliancy? And I can only, I can only assume that no two, you know, clients are the same in regards to what and how that needs to operate, what that looks like, etc. But what are the, what are the baseline best practices for implementing HubSpot?
- [33:58]
Brian de Koning
Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. That every company is different, every compliance team has different needs, different levels of sort of comfort with it. But the, but the bottom line is that at the end of the day you don't want to have because HubSpot is not currently HIPAA compliant because it's not signing a business associate agreement with the company, with the healthcare company, it's certainly secure enough and things like that, they've locked down a lot of the access within the system and things like that that would enable it to be HIPAA compliant. But because of that sort of agreement it is not currently treated as HIPAA compliant. And so therefore when we use HubSpot again making sure that, that it works for each individual compliance team. But typically we use it for when we're marketing to prospective patients. And so you know, if you're not a patient yet, we're marketing to you. We can put you in to the HubSpot database and we can market to you, we can nurture, we can do all of those sorts of things. But then once we get to a point where that, that contact becomes a patient, we want to remove them from HubSpot and get them into a, a different system that is HIPAA compliant. Now that could be with some of our clients. We've built custom systems that, that we then use that allow us to continue to sort of market to, to patients specifically. But, but in a HIPAA compliant way. Sometimes it's the erm, the medical record system that companies use and that we're Tying that together as well. Sometimes we're building interstitial systems to sort of talk between HubSpot and, and HIPAA compliance systems. There's lots of different, different ways to, to go about it. The important thing is to put together that plan that shows here's how we're going to treat non patients, here's how we're going to treat data of patients and, and here's where the line is and here's how we're going to make sure that we're respect, respecting the law, respecting patient privacy and keeping compliance teams happy while also making sure that we're able to do, you know, everything that we can to help grow the business and market to everybody who could, who could use the services of that particular health care company.
- [36:14]
Kevin Dunn
Now, you know a couple of different points in the, in the conversation I know you guys have alluded to well, our developers or the development team, I know they've been, but I can only imagine how integrated they are for, for this portion of the engagement. You mentioned some custom builds potentially or some official systems to like get the information over in a secure way. So I can only imagine the development expertise that's required to pull some of that stuff off.
- [36:36]
Duncan Craig
It really is. And we're, we have a great team of developers here in house at Raka who've built systems like this. And one of the things that's important to note is each organization we work with, each client in the healthcare space has different standards or different, a different benchmark of compliance for their own HIPAA regulations. Right. So it's really important to have those conversations with healthcare clients to understand what their expectations are and how they currently manage things. And then our development team has been fantastic about coming up with creative solutions to those challenges and yes building some custom portals along the. So that we can manage to the client's expectations for compliance. It's not, it's not an easy thing to jump into but once you're in there and you know, we're like you mentioned, we're lucky we've got a great team of developers who can handle this kind of thing.
- [37:37]
Kevin Dunn
You mentioned I think no two compliance teams are the same or they have different thresholds for, you know, what compliance looks like for them. What are some of the, how do you suss out exactly what they need and how like to inform what you're going to propose as a solution? Are there the, what are the questions that, that you find yield the, the most pertinent information required?
- [37:57]
Duncan Craig
Yeah, sure, I'll take a stab at that. But Duncan, a little, little better mind for legalese and whatnot. So maybe have some, some to add. So what we want to do is just really understand what the, what they've done in the past, what they have experienced, what their internal legal team is recommending and has recommended, what it has allowed and not allowed in the past and make sure that we have a good understanding of that and we look for the ways that are going to be, that are going to cause the least amount of friction to their current processes. Right. Because we know that it's usually the marketing and sales teams that are all in on HubSpot and they want those features and the ability to do all the awesome stuff that HubSpot does. But it's the, it's the compliance legal team that really needs to approve the solution as well. So we try, we tread lightly and respectfully and we want to make sure that we've got that as clear a picture as we can from the outset of the engagement so that whatever we're proposing, we know that it's, it's something that's realistic and that we can actually implement.
- [39:09]
Kevin Dunn
Yeah, it's an interesting point too that, you know, usually your champion, your internal champions are folks on their marketing teams or want to, you know, yield the benefits of these types of marketing strategies that can be executed on HubSpot. But I mean, it sounds like a really important decision maker that you need to win over is whoever the head of compliance is or you need them to be on board with what you're going to propose. Right?
- [39:28]
Duncan Craig
We do. And there are a lot of conversations and back and forth in that. So it's a, it's usually a long process to figure that out. Sometimes the sales process moves pretty quickly, but then the nuts and bolts need to be worked out and this technical specifications take a little time to hammer out. But yeah, yeah, there's always an IT leader involved and then, and a compliance leader.
- [39:53]
Kevin Dunn
And then order of operations wise, is IT and compliance involved when they're vetting, you know, vendors or different, you know, services providers and systems? Or are those conversations maturing after they've, you know, decided to, to progress or move forward with someone like Rocket Health? Right. What's like the order of operations for involving them?
- [40:12]
Duncan Craig
It goes in different ways, man.
- [40:16]
Kevin Dunn
It depends.
- [40:17]
Duncan Craig
Yeah, yeah, but I, but what I would say relative to HubSpot especially is that, you know, we really need to get sign off from the decision maker in it, the decision maker and compliance that, that HubSpot's a workable tool and we need to Also demonstrate the case studies that we've, that we've got, that we, where we've used HubSpot in a HIPAA compliant way in the past before we get signed off on these types of engagements. So it's, it could, I would say, you know, for HubSpot contracts, you got to get all those people to be on board and make sure you get a workable solution before you can move forward. Sometimes we'll see organizations begin just with marketing, right. So might be a marketing starter for HubSpot and then they want to expand what they're doing with it. So then, you know, there's a larger conversation about how to, how to make that integrate with their other systems and whatnot. So.
- [41:15]
Kevin Dunn
Oh, interesting. So the engagement may start at, you know, it doesn't. HIPAA compliance isn't required to get going. But then, you know, based on the success of maybe, you know, marketing starter and some marketing activities within, you know, the engagement can expand and they're interested in, you know, expanded coverage. Yeah, sure, sure.
- [41:32]
Duncan Craig
Yeah, absolutely.
- [41:34]
Kevin Dunn
Hey, Duncan, I think I have you. I see you as muted, just so you know. Oh, Duncan, I just want to unmute the mic. There it is.
- [41:40]
Brian de Koning
All right, I got you. It's important to note too that when we're talking about hipaa, we're really talking about when we're marketing to patients. If this is a B2B health care company, it's really, it's not, you know, we're not having to deal with that. It's really about patient confidentiality and personal health information and making sure that, you know, we're treating that data very securely and, and with a lot of privacy. But that is really just for patient focused communication.
- [42:10]
Kevin Dunn
That's a good point. And that HIPAA isn't something that's just a blanket statement. Oh, you're interested in, you know, working with, you know, the healthcare industry. Oh, well, then you need to ensure, you know, HIPAA compliance is top of mind. Well, it's if you are, you know, capturing patient data or using patient data. So it's the patient component that's the app. That's a really important call.
- [42:27]
Brian de Koning
Yeah, exactly. And a lot of times we can, we can market to people who are not patients. And if you're not a patient, we don't have to worry. I mean, obviously we're always worried about security and privacy in a general sense, but, but we then have to sort of take it to a, to a very strong level once, once we're talking about an actual patient.
- [42:48]
Kevin Dunn
Makes sense now, guys, as we come up on time. I tend to wrap every episode with the same question. So we'll see if we can put a slightly different flair to it based on the conversation today around health care. But it's. What's the strangest part of agency life? But maybe what's the strangest part of, you know, health, patient data, healthcare, sub brand services providing life.
- [43:10]
Brian de Koning
Oh man, you should see some of the things that we have to. When we're looking for stock photos. Some of the like internal organs we have to search for and, and get used to like sort of being like, I don't know, does that look too much like a face or, you know, there's. There's been some interesting search histories that are totally legit and you know, and. Right, right. What we're supposed to be doing. But you know, Mike, raise some eyebrows if, if an outsider looked in.
- [43:36]
Kevin Dunn
Well, stock images in and of themselves are fairly. It's just. It's a slippery slope. It's a strange place.
- [43:42]
Brian de Koning
Yeah, absolutely.
- [43:45]
Kevin Dunn
How about you, Brian? Anything. Anything strange? Top of mind for you.
- [43:51]
Duncan Craig
I would. That was a really good one. I would say just in agency life in general. Just.
- [44:00]
Brian de Koning
The.
- [44:03]
Duncan Craig
Now I'm gonna pass on that one.
- [44:05]
Kevin Dunn
Yeah. All right. Hey, listen, you're like, I'll double down on the stock images. There's some weird pictures you can pull up. You know, weird ones for sure. Yeah.
- [44:12]
Duncan Craig
I just don't want to say anything I'll get in trouble for so.
- [44:15]
Kevin Dunn
Well, guys, appreciate both coming on the podcast. I loved hearing about the journey Rock has had through the program. How you've adapted to some product rollouts, how you've adapted to some programmatic changes over time. And then obviously loved hearing about Rocket Health. Both the go to market and operationalization of it, but also, you know, the approach and how you, you know, ensure HIPAA compliancy if and when required. So anyways, guys, there's a ton here, but thank you so much for. For coming on the show.
- [44:42]
Duncan Craig
Thanks Kevin.
- [44:43]
Brian de Koning
It's great.
- [44:43]
Kevin Dunn
Thanks.
- [44:44]
Duncan Craig
Thank you for having us. Where do you go from here? Like when we would. We see a.
- [44:50]
Kevin Dunn
It's a good question. I'm gonna. I'm gonna hit this quick sound bite and then I will. I have you guys on the counter here. Let me just hit this quick.
- [44:56]
Duncan Craig
Real quick.
- [44:57]
Kevin Dunn
And for those that have just tuned in, this has been another episode of Agency Unfiltered. Sam.