Loading summary
Transcript69 lines
- [00:01]
Kevin Dunn
Hi folks.
- [00:02]
Carlos Corredor
Welcome to agency unfiltered, the HubSpot Solutions Partner Podcast. I'm your host, Kevin Dunn and Agency Unfiltered is a weekly web series and podcast that interviews the owners, founders and executives of agencies and services providers from around the world about whatever it takes to grow and scale. On this week's episode, we have on Carlos Corredor, CEO and co founder of Condor Marketing and Staffing agency, who's here to talk about how he's grown his agency past 70 plus employees, all employees besides himself, based in Latin America. And we discussed the history of Condor and its growth trajectory and Carlos's philosophy on building a latam based delivery team while targeting and working with US based clientele. We get into employment types full time versus contract versus freelance, and the key benefits for tapping into this latam talent pool, both financially and skill based. And for other US based HubSpot partners looking to follow suit and and grow a team outside of the U.S. carlos offers his perspective on how to do it successfully, including how to anticipate the necessary changes across operations, communications, collaborations and more. You're listening to another episode of Agency Unfiltered.
- [01:35]
Kevin Dunn
Hey Carlos. Welcome to the Agency Unfiltered podcast. How we doing?
- [01:39]
C
Hey Kevin. Doing great, man. Glad to be here. Thanks for having me.
- [01:44]
Kevin Dunn
Of course. Happy to have you on. Now, whereabouts in the world are you today? I know you might be in transit sometimes when I catch it, but where are you today?
- [01:53]
C
I'm in Miami now, which is where I live. But yeah, often, I mean soon in, in Mexico and Venezuela visiting the rest of the team and in Colorado in an event tomorrow. But for now, until today in Miami.
- [02:05]
Kevin Dunn
Yeah, at home. And Miami doesn't, you know, as the, as the wind, as the, the temperature, as it starts to get a little chilled up here in New England. Miami sounds pretty nice right around now, as does maybe Mexico too. Yeah. So it looks like you're hitting all the right spots at the right times.
- [02:17]
C
Yeah, today went down to 70 and people are starting to complain.
- [02:20]
Kevin Dunn
So it's all subjective, I guess. You. Well, Carlos, I love that you teed up that you're visiting some team members across the US and into Mexico because that actually segues really nicely into, I think the conversation we're hoping to have today. And I think that goes to the, the team building strategy or the way in which you've built out, you know, the employee base at Condor Agency, your agency. And so maybe the best place to start. Why don't you just walk us through it? What is that model? What Is that philosophy for building and growing Condor as an agency as you've built up your client base and maybe walk us through how that may have evolved over time. Let's start there.
- [03:01]
C
I started Condor with a good friend of mine. We're the two founders and we started five years ago and we're both from Latin America, from Venezuela. But I moved to Chicago now almost 12 years ago and I worked before starting Condor. I did a master's there. I worked in a couple of other agencies and that really allowed me to understand, you know, the marketing world in corporate America, let's say, right. From type of work the clients do to who is delivering those projects. And you know, I always knew that there was a difference in terms of salaries, but I didn't know it was that big. Not only salaries, the cost of the projects, how much you pay to employees, how much you pay to agencies. Right, yeah. So that's really what, you know, got us thinking about building that business model of having the team outside of the US in particular in Latin America, where we grew up, or we know how things work, we know where to find the people, we know the type of skills, depending on the country or the university, etc. But you know, focusing on clients that are in the US Perhaps not enterprise clients, but definitely medium sized companies that are a little bit on a limbo because most agencies are going after enterprise clients or at least well established agencies are going after enterprise clients. So you know, companies that have, I don't know, 50 employees. Yeah. Companies that are making 5, $10 million in revenue, up to 500 million in revenue. Right. That's a space that, you know, for them it's really cost prohibitive to work with with a well regarded agency in the US So that's essentially how we started and how we've grown our, you know, our business model in these five years.
- [04:48]
Kevin Dunn
No, that's great. And you know, you mentioned the opportunity at the mid market. I think you mentioned too, a lot of agencies, especially a lot of HubSpot partners, are seeking to go upmarket into the enterprise. I know that's a topic that we cover on this podcast quite a bit. And so there seems to be an opportunity here at the mid market, which is, it sounds like where Condor may be operating. And then it sounds like too, I'm starting to see like the ratio of mid market businesses looking to pay US rates for agency services. But you have employee salaries and those that are delivering the work at a much cheaper cost. You can start to see the profitability already taking shape. But Carlos, for just to set the context, how big is Condor today? How many total employees? And then what's the breakdown of US based versus Latam based employees?
- [05:37]
C
Yep. So we're up to 70 something people. Let's say, let's run it up to 70. I think it's 72 or 73 with the last couple of hires. So. And they are, all of them except me are in Latin America. So I'm the only one that is based in the U.S. you know, that's a size in terms of the team. We, you know, because of the growth that we had in 2022, we made the Inc. 5000 list for the first time.
- [06:07]
Kevin Dunn
Congrats.
- [06:08]
C
In this year's list. Thank you. Where we were also number three, number 33amongst agencies. Right. Top 500 overall and number 33amongst agencies. And yeah, I mean it's interesting because when we started, obviously that was the business model from the start. But we always thought that okay at the beginning, you know, we'll do, I mean the Antonio is the other founder and me will do the account management and the sales. But eventually we'll get somebody to do account management. The US we thought that was a no brainer. And then we said, you know, for what we're gonna pay to somebody in the U.S. you know, we can get, instead of somebody with a couple years of experience, we can get the head of sales of Leo Burnett Mexico to do sales for us. Right. So we continue and we, you know, same thing for account management. Right. So even those roles we filled in Latin America, I think those would definitely be the, the last ones that you would outsource or hire outside of the U.S. but in our case it has worked just because the way that, you know, we're from there. Right. And then lately, you know, the, the, the roles that we do have here, or not roles. But yeah, the figures are, for example, consultants, business coaches, partners. Right. Especially in the last year or two we've done, you know, we spent some time there and you know, done a good amount of effort to build that network. Because that's obviously, you know, impossible to recreate outside of the U.S. right. But other than that, it's, everyone is, it's in Latin America.
- [07:39]
Kevin Dunn
Yeah. Wow, that's great. So it's quite literally 99 point something percent of the employee everything besides yourself. I didn't know that. And now does Condor. Are you only looking to grow the team with full time employees across Latin America or do you have, you know, a bench of freelancers, contractors? Like what are the various employment Types that you, you tap.
- [07:59]
C
Yeah.
- [08:00]
Kevin Dunn
Yeah. Good.
- [08:00]
C
No, that's, that's a great question. As an agency, it's, it's interestingly enough one of our, and this happened organically, one of our two main target audiences or segments are other marketing agencies. Right. Where we don't necessarily have more expertise on them or we usually don't have more expertise than them in their particular services. But we, we can help with staffing solutions and resource planning solutions. And that obviously enters into the decision of when should you hire an FTE versus a freelancer. For the services that we execute more often and where we have enough workload and predictability, we go for FTEs, it's the, from a cost standpoint is the best route to go long term, as long as you have that predictability. But perhaps for services that are, that we're adding to our repertoire or it's a one off that a client that we might know, we have a pool of freelancers, for example video editors. That's one that we are recently building and demand for that is growing. But at the beginning we started with one person part time and then you know, as demand for that grows then you know, we turn that person into full time and perhaps another add another part time. So it depends a lot on the workload predictability, if we have the expertise or not and the type of skill essentially and obviously the cost factor.
- [09:44]
Kevin Dunn
But you know, no, it makes sense though that the determining, it sounds like the key determining factor of whether you should seek to fill a position with a full time employee or tap a contractor freelancer is to the workload predictability. Is this something that we're hoping to offer or the type of deliveral, the type of engagement we want to consistently deliver to clients? If so, you know, obviously having somebody full time makes a ton of sense for that. Carlos, you mentioned that you some of your clients are other agencies looking for help or some guidance in this area. What are other mistakes or pitfalls that you find other partners or agencies bumping into when resource planning or you know, thinking about, you know, team growth in their future?
- [10:26]
C
Yeah, I think the first one, there are a few. I think the first one and most important one is not having the data to make those decisions. Right. And starting with, I mean usually they know the revenue numbers, but a lot of times when you get to gross margins not only as a whole, but by service, by client and ideally by deliverable, then you know, it gets really messy. Right. So if you don't know which services are profitable, which clients are profitable, how can you increase those profits, right? Because you cannot, you know, you need to know when do you increase profits by decreasing the cost of your team? When do you increase it by charging more? When can you charge more? If you are good enough already or if you have to invest in innovation to be better at a certain service or deliverable. Right. So just having the gross margins, it's step one after that that will give you visibility into those kind of decisions that you need to make. Usually a very common mistake is as we were talking before hiring FTEs when not only that you don't have enough predictability but you don't even have the role defined or the responsibilities defined and the need for those deliverables. Right. I've, I've always been used to track my time. I think it's, it's amazing how some agencies being in the, in the people people business don't require their employees to track their time. You know, if you are, I mean if you are an award winning creative agency that you know, you do super bowl commercials and you have the most creative people on earth, yeah you're not going to ask them to track their time. But usually when it's when you do a lot of execution, when you have a back office team cranking up work, SEO researches landing pages, campaigns, that's a commodity essentially or a lot of that is a commodity and you should definitely be tracking that time. So measuring the productivity of your in house team and having them to the same standards that when you hire somebody outside of, of your agency that you know, in that people are very used to negotiating, being tough negotiators, you know, with contracts, with renewals, demanding in status meetings but for some reason they, they, they don't have the same standards or measurements in place for their in house team and their in house team tends to be at least three quarters of the cost, you know of an agency tends to be their in house team. So that's common mistake. And then you know we go into for example you know, should you go and outsource the work versus do it in house? Whether that's with a freelancer because your workload is not quite there yet or the predictability or you don't have the expertise in which case then you need to vet and select the right partner because it's not only a cost issue, it's also, you know, you're sending a deliverable in the name of your agency.
- [13:33]
Kevin Dunn
You better have a quality and accountability piece. Yeah, 100%.
- [13:37]
C
So all of those decisions around resource planning, I don't know it surprises me that there's very little planning, very little time put an effort and data put behind that. You know, that's, that's I think the main one.
- [13:53]
Kevin Dunn
Well it, it's making sure you, it sounds like, to repeat it back, it sounds like making sure you have the right data with the right granular lens. Obviously you mentioned like the gross margins being a key piece. I think you mentioned time tracking and measuring the productivity of the team.
- [14:07]
C
Right.
- [14:07]
Kevin Dunn
So some of those things. You also mentioned that pitfall you see is that some agencies are looking to maybe fill a role or to hire a full time employee without having that role fully baked out or like fleshed out yet. What does that, what does that tend to look like? It sounds like a cart before the horse type scenario. When does that, when does that happen?
- [14:25]
C
Yeah. So for example, let's say, you know, they have, because we, you know, we do staffing and recruiting for agents a lot and they come and say, hey, you know, I need a full time, for example, I need a full time email marketer. You know, okay, let's sit and discuss the details because you know, there could be different types in terms of skills, backgrounds, industry expertise, etc. And they're like, no, well I'm having a sales pitch, you know, for this big project and you know, they're going with part of a, part of the implementation and you know, we definitely are gonna need, you know, a bigger team that we have now because right now we have nobody. I said okay, and how are, and then when you start talking about the details is like, well, it's a project that is going to last three months, that is going to require not only one, but it's going to require three people to do it. Right. So you're going to miss the mark. If you hire somebody full time, it's going to take the recruiter probably a week or two to start sending you resumes and qualified candidates. You're going to interview them for another week or two. They're going to have to put probably their 15 weeks, you know, 15 day notice. Right. So you're talking about between a month, best case scenario and, and more realistically, a month and a half or two to have that person in your team. By that point the project is already, you're already going to be late. Right. And the person is going to do the onboard. It's crazy. You know, that's not the way that you solve that challenge. Right. Whereas if you have a good partner that, yeah, they're going to charge you a little bit more by the hour. But you're going to do the project on time, successfully, you're going to make margins there. And then once you have more predictability then you start moving some of that in house. Right, but that's, that's for that, that's an example that, that happens a lot. I mean, I mean I'm exaggerating maybe in this one. I understand the sentiment, but that's usually what happens.
- [16:12]
Kevin Dunn
It's, it's so it sounds like there's the importance of aligning like the scope and the requirements of a project and, and benchmarking that with either the talent pool you already have, bench of freelancers you already have or the potential need. Right. For, for a full time employee. But knowing that the full time employee, the vetting, the qualification, the ramp up period, like. Yeah, that's, you know, there's a whole other timing element that maybe some agencies that you've spoken with aren't accounting for. Right?
- [16:38]
C
Yeah, yeah. Well, for example, if you have a team of six email marketers, you just landed a new client that's permanent, you want to get the team to seven. Yeah, it makes sense. You know, your current team can absorb the workload for a month or two while you get that other person. So it depends on the situation.
- [16:53]
Kevin Dunn
Yep, that makes sense. Now you, Carlos, you obviously are, are for yourself, right? Hiring LATAM based employees. You're also working with other agencies or other partners in helping them do the same. Obviously you know, we talked about the cost element, the salary differences. I can imagine that that makes a, you know, helps with the gross margins component that you alluded to. But what are the additional value adds to the business? Like why has it been such a important, you know, intention for Condor and for the agencies that you work with to scale in LATAM specifically?
- [17:30]
C
Yeah, I mean one thing LATAM is that, or at least the way that we do it in latam because there are several other, you know, agencies that are, that are offering it. We're not going for only the cost savings. The cost savings will be there. Right. But is like if you're going on a vacation, right. You know, that going to, let's say Mexico is going to be cheaper than going to San Francisco for example. Right. Or Miami beach if you're going to go to the beach. Right. That doesn't mean you're going to go to the cheapest hotel in Mexico. Right. You're going to go to a great place in Mexico that is still going to be cheaper than a mediocre place in the U.S. sure. So we do the same approach, you know, for talent. We go after the top talent in Latin America, right? Because we think that's the way we do it for ourselves, and that's the way we recommend doing it for clients. Because obviously you want somebody that, yeah, it's gonna cost you less than in the US but it's gonna do great work and great work. You know, it includes several things. It includes that they need to speak great English, you know, almost perfect, essentially, right? So we go for people that do that, and most of them even studied college or a master's in the U.S. right? There are a lot of those people in Latin America, you know, so that's one area expertise. So for example, in our, in our analytics team, we don't have marketing majors that know how to use Excel, right? We have data scientists and data engineers in our analytics team and the same thing for our clients, right? So we're going after, you know, really the best talent you can find. So I think that's a difference. I think they're other. Depending on the skills. And if really cost savings are the only thing you have in mind, there are definitely either both other agencies in Latin America or even other countries that you can do that. You can go to the Philippines, you can go to India, right? And that's a more mature industry in those places where you, when you talk strictly about cranking out work, you know, repetitive, but at the same time, I think AI is also impacting that type of skill. So, you know, but that's. I think that's the main reason I know, you know, we're from there and I remember it's just like, you know, we're also big into sports and into baseball. It's like, well, you. Every, every major league team you see today, they. They bring the best players, you know, from Dominican Republic, Japan, Venezuela, you know, so you. We try to do the same, you know, for, for marketing teams and agencies.
- [20:01]
Kevin Dunn
Yeah, I love the baseball metaphor, speaking to a Boston Red Sox fan. So I get it. I know how they develop their, you know, grow their farm system and develop their players. And to your point, it's not only the cost savings, but there's a balance between having a cost savings, but also seeking out and bringing in the top talent. Right. That the region may have to offer. You know, based on whatever you're looking for, role or requirements, etc, what are the biggest considerations that teams, companies, agencies need to make when looking to grow a team outside of the U.S. whether it's in Latam or otherwise. Like, how does that change Their operations, their communications, the, you know, their go to market. Like what are the biggest changes or considerations that they need to top of mind when growing a team?
- [20:41]
C
Yeah, well, I think the main one, I think Covid alleviated the main, the first one a lot which is just being in a different place. You know, five years ago when I was in Chicago, you know, that was before COVID in the other age that I was, you know, we're trying to outsource some work and there was a lot of, you know, reluctancy, resistance to change because. Not because they were outside of the US just because they were not sitting next to you, you know.
- [21:07]
Kevin Dunn
Right, right. Covid was a forcing function to just comfortability with distributed teams. Right. Remote collaboration.
- [21:13]
C
Yeah. And that's understand, totally understandable. I think that again, you know, Covid itself took care of that one. But, but obviously, you know, it's still important just as how you plan and communicate with somebody that's in a different city in the US Same thing with somebody that's in a different region. You know, probably having a project management tool helps, whether that's Asana, for example, we use ClickUp, Trello, whatever it is, you know, that helps Slack helps as long as you don't abuse it. You know, I think also building a team in the same time zone helps a lot too, you know, because you're already dealing with somebody that is not with you. But then if that person is working from midnight to 8 in the morning and you're working when they're sleeping, you know. Yeah, you can delegate things, but it helps to have an overlap window where you can meet, where you can quickly ask a question, where you can bring them to another meeting that you already are. So, you know, hopefully, you know, or most of the time that helps too. And also I think starting small is important, right. If you've never done it, start with a position, start with a part time person, you know, because you're probably not gonna be the only one putting your hands in the fire, you know, for the decision. Right. You're probably selling this. Right. So it's much easier to sell the project and sell the outsourcing model. When you do it successfully with a person or two, then, you know, believe me, their leaders and the owners or their bosses are gonna be the first one saying, hey, can we do more of that? You know, they're gonna be the one requesting as opposed to you pushing it too hard, you know. So I think starting small would be another piloting.
- [23:00]
Kevin Dunn
Makes a ton of sense. Yeah, it sounds like I think you mentioned like click up and Asana, but leveraging systems. Right. To help with, with. I think just, that's just best practices for remote collaboration regardless. And then I think that's a good tip too. Just again, as you pilot it, as you test it out, seeking folks in a similar time zone. Right. Kind of eases the transition for sure. Makes it a little more effective or like easier, you know, collaboration. Right. Overlap of work. Carlos, what like, what about like any like cultural considerations or what does like the, the hiring process, the vetting process, interview process. Right. The transition from an old role into a new role. Like anything cultural or like just expectations wise for seeking employment that, you know, agencies would want to, you know, keep in mind.
- [23:50]
C
Yeah, I think the main one is, you know, it's interesting because on one hand, and going back to our analogy of baseball, you know, when you see players and kids, you know, growing up in, in Latin America, and in particular in the case of baseball, Dominican Republic and Venezuela, which are, let's say poorest countries compared to Japan, which is another baseball country, they do, they would do everything to play in the major leagues, to be signed by a major league team, you know, they don't here, you see, and understandably so the kids, when they are 17, 18, they're deciding, should I go to college? You know, MLB teams are offering me this or that, you know, and they consider, they doubt it, you know, because they have a lot of other options, right? So kind of the same thing happens in the corporate world, right? When they have the opportunity to work for the best and the most powerful economy in the world, they take it and they appreciate it and they're really hungry, you know, and so that's another thing. Whereas in the US because everyone has different alternatives, you know, they have a little more negotiating power, right? They can afford to be a little more exclusive in how long they stay at a job, how much money they ask for, etc. So however, having said that, people in Latin America, they tend to be really hungry. They all. It's also a different culture and mentality in terms of their approach to work and not only a work life balance, but commitment to your company. You know, here in the US again, you know, it's a capitalist, capitalist country. You know, Latin America is more on the socialist side. Even people that are, that have the best education, just culturally, how they grew up, their parents, education, the country, education, you know, they can definitely, definitely be a little more cynical towards their employer, right. Or have different goals, right? And they don't understand that if the company is doing great. You cannot do great. You cannot expect certain compensation if the company is not meeting their goals and vice versa. Right. So that would be, that's something that we definitely weed out during the interview process. Right. We want to make sure that you, you know, you're hungry, you want to be part of this economy, you're going to appreciate it and you are going to understand that, you know, you need to add value to the business and the business need to do well and everyone will do well and everyone will grow.
- [26:19]
Kevin Dunn
Right.
- [26:20]
C
So I just like without, you know, that cultural aspect, I think it's important. Yep.
- [26:25]
Kevin Dunn
No, it's a helpful frame of reference. Thanks for sharing. Are there any. We talked about skills. We talked about top talent. You know, if I'm an agency, if I'm another HubSpot Solutions partner, like man, you know, we've been growing this piece of the business, the service offering. It's time to start, you know, investing in it, bringing in some new employees. Maybe we'll start to look at the talent within Latam. Are there any services or skills as it relates like the HubSpot platform or the services around it that aren't quite a fit yet for the talent pool within Latam? Does that make sense?
- [26:59]
C
Yeah, yeah. I think marketing in general, so for example, not going necessarily into Hotspot yet, but talking about marketing, I think Latam is a great place in general. For example, development people are used to outsourcing development to or it, for example to India, development to Eastern Europe. Right. And perhaps cheap marketing labor to the Philippines. I would say if I have to generalize, people are very used to doing that. Right. I think Latam is a great place for marketing in general. Now when you go into the marketing channels, for example, if we consider HubSpot to be, you could consider that to be on the development side or more on the marketing automation and email side. But I think Latam definitely offers that alternative. For example, I think just by being the biggest country in Latam with the most amount of universities and college grads and proximity to the US Mexico is a no brainer for that one. For the analytics portion, web analytics portion and analytics also, I think Argentina, although Argentina is going through a crisis right now, that you also need to watch out for that. I think Latin America in general is somewhat unstable politically, but in parti. And that's okay, you know, as long as you're aware of the risk. But Argentina today is in a very tough place because of again, currency issues. But yeah, I would say analytics and even some Development in Argentina is good. I think Colombia is another emerging one that it's good in terms of both size because, you know, the population and talent availability and English speakers. I would say for HubSpot, Colombia and Mexico make a lot of sense. For example, other smaller countries like Venezuela, where we're from, that's a great country to build. You know, somebody that is really raw right out of school, that they haven't, you know, worked at a, either an agency or a marketing department. But then you train the person. Right. We have. And you know, by being all partners of hospital, we have definitely solid trainings in place to grab somebody fresh out of college and get them up to speed really quick. And as long as they're supervised by the right person, you can also find value there. But again, it's more like potential. I need to train that person.
- [29:35]
Kevin Dunn
It's like existing skill and expertise versus. Yeah. Finding somebody that's going to come in with the hunger that you'll be able to coach and develop. Right. To build. Yep.
- [29:43]
C
Exactly. Yep.
- [29:44]
Kevin Dunn
So it sounds like Colombia, Mexico you mentioned, I think Argentina as well, Venezuela. Now, outside of reaching out to Condor Agency. Right. If this was something that I wanted to, you know, start for my own business, where and how do I get started? So we've identified, you know, hey, these are the types of skills that we should be hiring for. Here are the countries that the top town might be located. Like where and how do I get started? Where do I go find the talent? Where do I go, you know, meet them, where they're at. So. So to speak.
- [30:15]
C
Yeah, no, I mean that's. You probably have to either recruit that. I mean, upwork is always an option, but the thing with upwork is that you don't, it's always a freelancer mode. You're not creating necessarily a solid partner there that can help you. Ideally, you know, because it's not only finding the person, it's building a team, making sure you're protected either does it make sense for you to incorporate in another country? Right. If you only have a couple of people, probably not. You know, you can, you can find a partner that does that, but ideally it's the same partner that helps you with, you know, the defining, the type of skill that you want and the figure that you want in terms of permanent versus temporary. And then, you know, that can find you both alternatives and then that can staff them on their payroll in case you're not incorporated. Right. So ideally it's a one size fits, fits all solution. It's very common that Going back to example of tourists when they visit Mexico, you know, they go down and yeah, they obviously they say, but they, everybody takes a piece. You know, the guy in the airport, the taxi jumps at you at the airport and he takes a piece. Then you know, the guy at the restaurant takes a piece and ultimately you didn't save a lot of money. Right. So whereas if you go with one person, that takes you throughout the whole, you know, experience and you are clear from the cost from the start. And that goes from again, recruiting, even if you have to find an office space, staffing the person, if you need to let the person go, you know, that you are covered from a legal standpoint, all of those things. You know, ideally you should again, you know, do it under one partner that has, you know, expertise and that offers you a good value and a good plan for that.
- [31:59]
Kevin Dunn
Yeah. So there's benefits. Well, first off, it sounds like to really be able to do it effectively and successfully, you want to find some sort of like a staffing partner, someone that has the expertise. Right. And hiring in these, in these areas, in these regions. And there's value in working with a singular staffing partner that can full, you know, across the board from recruiting to filling, to helping with some of the legal compliancy. Right. Employment paperwork. So there's, there's benefit there. But to your point, this was interesting. So remind me, what's the decision making criteria for whether or not I should seek to be incorporated in that country or not? Is it the, the size of employee, like the quantity of employees I'd be hoping to hire in that country?
- [32:41]
C
Yes, exactly. Because there are some legal costs, not only legal cost upfront or one time, let's say, but also, you know, administrative costs. You need to do accounting and taxes in a different country. Right. So somebody needs to do that. Right. So if you only have one or two people, you know, even if they're full time, but if they're, you know, if only a couple or let's say up to five people, you know, outside, you know, rule of thumb, up to five, then it makes sense to just pay somebody to have them on their payroll, you know.
- [33:16]
Kevin Dunn
Yeah.
- [33:16]
C
Whereas now you're up to 10, you're going to continue to be in that country, you like it a lot, you're constantly recruiting there, then might be, that might be a good time to say, okay, you know, why don't I incorporate here so I can, you know, I can do it on my own and probably ultimately save more money that I'm spending, especially in Terms of, you know, to be able to have people on my payroll.
- [33:39]
Kevin Dunn
Right. And so it sounds like the tipping point is there from like all right for one to two, maybe up to five. But as you go beyond that, that's kind of tipping the scale towards like yeah, maybe you should seek out. Right. And does the, does the partner that you have somebody like Condor or otherwise, the staff, do they assist with and offer guidance for agencies to get incorporated into the countries that they'd want to be incorporated in?
- [34:00]
C
Yeah, definitely. And that's also keep in mind that that's for let's say what we call unmanaged researchers, right. Or full time resources that are, that you are managing and they work full time for you.
- [34:13]
Kevin Dunn
Right.
- [34:13]
C
But in some instances, you know, you might be better off partnering with somebody that manages that for you, you know, and that, you know, that or what we call white label services, right. Where you need you, you're looking to save a little bit of money. Perhaps you don't have the expertise or even if you have the expertise, you know, you like somebody to again, you know, save you management time essentially and, and giving you deliverables perfectly. Obviously, you know, if we hire a full time person, we or any partner, if they hire a full time person for you, you're going to manage them, right. If they make mistakes, if they deliver something that is not, you know, client facing, you know, then it's gonna be on you to again train that person, put them on a performance improvement, whatever it might be. Whereas if you put somebody, a lot of times we see that it's valuable to put an account manager, a project manager that is seasoned with the channel with US clients and then you can scale because you can build a team, not only one, two, but potentially five people under that person. Right. And it's, let's say, I don't know, we've seen that model be really valuable. And in that case, you know, perhaps, you know, you want to do it via the agency partner that you do it with and you don't even have to be incorporated for that. It's just a transaction with an agency.
- [35:34]
Kevin Dunn
So there's almost like the fourth option on this menu where it's like, well, you can either hire a full time employee, you can look to contractors, you can find freelance. Then there's also this fourth option which is you can see like outsource or bring in a partner who may have a team that's primarily built in, you know, one of these latam countries. And then they can either, you know, do the white label These services. But again, there's a cost savings for your agency, again because of all the reasons we mentioned about the talent within latam. So there's that fourth option, the white label or outsource component to another agency.
- [36:07]
C
Yeah, yeah. And the benefit of both the white labeling and the let's say a part time where that's freelancers or what we call shared resource is that it's immediate. Right, Right. You need to plan. Even if you're going to hire a freelancer and start the search from zero, it's going to take you a couple of weeks to have that person in. Whereas if you already know a team and you know you can tap into that team essentially on demand, literally overnight, that's really valuable.
- [36:34]
Kevin Dunn
That makes sense. Carlos, what have been obviously you mentioned growing a team up to 72, 75. What have been the biggest lessons learned Right. As you've grown Condor? A client base that's US based, an employee base that's LATAM based. What are the biggest lessons learned along the way? Is there anything that, that, that you learned or any pitfalls that you had to navigate that listeners today can, can benefit from?
- [37:00]
C
Yeah, I mean I think we've always been data driven, but even us, which I think that you know, that that's actually, I think that's one of our strengths. Right. How data dream are. Even ourselves, you know, we've made some mistakes in terms of resource planning that again starts with a financial planning, you know, from the start by not having that very clear, not only goals but also, you know, margins by team, by client. How. Because we've been growing quarter over. The only quarter that we didn't grow, it was Q2 of 2020 when Covid hit. But around that, you know, we've always grown quarter over quarter. So it's like we take it for granted. Right. And then, you know, last year, even though we still had a better year than 2021, we overestimated how much we're going to grow and ended up hiring more people. Right. Also I think because we hire the people in Latin America, we know, you know, we have a little more leeway because salaries are, let's say a third of what they're in the US So maybe we abused that in the past. So that's another learning. But I think again, you can never be too meticulous with your financial planning and with your gross margin reports. And then the other one is, I'm not going to say that we. I don't think the problem was hiring the people. The extra people. I Think the problem was not calculating what they were going to do and making sure that we had demand for those. You know, not even not taking the time to establish a role and responsibilities, even a rough estimate of how much were they going to spend on each area, on each channel, on each client, you know. Yeah, I think those, those are two. Two big ones.
- [38:46]
Kevin Dunn
Yeah. No, that makes a ton of sense. It goes back to the pieces you talked about. Just. Yeah. What are the, the biggest mistakes agencies make when trying to, you know, properly resource plan? It sounds like, you know, understanding the scope of work, the demand that would warrant. Right. Additional headcount for your team. Makes sense. And sorry, you mentioned this. I guess we didn't, we didn't cover it explicitly, but you just mentioned this is the shorthand kind of the, the back of the napkin math. The salary differences for somebody at the same level of responsibility is one third if they were in LatAm versus, you know, you know, key markets in the.
- [39:19]
C
U.S. correct your rule of thumb again, and you have to be really careful with that because you can go lower, but then you're gonna start sacrificing quality. Right, but I'm talking about 100% personality, is 100% fluent in English, with the same expertise in terms of technologies, type of clients, industries. Right. I would say a third, including. Right. You have to count recruiting costs in the US and recruiting cost, like all things being equal. I would say a third. Yeah. And again, I recommend half, but then having a, A better person.
- [40:01]
Kevin Dunn
Right, well, that's exactly, that's, that's. All things are the same, but there's an opportunity to still experience some cost savings, but to, to go up on, you know, level of skill, expertise, you know, et cetera. 100%.
- [40:14]
C
Yep.
- [40:16]
Kevin Dunn
Carlos, as we come up on time, I do want to just squeeze in one, One last question here. We wrap every episode with the same question. What's the strangest part of agency life?
- [40:26]
C
Yeah, no, I think one that is just happening now is that, I mean, it's a people business. But then, you know, after going, everyone is working remotely and you know, I, I, for example, speaking personally, I, at one point I have been talk. I have been working every day with a team that I hadn't, I had never met in person. Right. So because again, Covid was almost, you know, two years between, you know, the quarantine and then the travel bans and everything. So. Yeah, that was amazing. You know, going in person and spending time having a beer or even like working on a deep work session with somebody that, you know I hadn't met for, for two years. That's weird. I think again, agencies, that's happening a lot. I mean the AI, man, AI today is crazy. You know, we, you know, we're, we're, we try to be on top of it, we're prioritizing, incorporating everywhere. But I'm amazed, I'm amazed. I don't know if that, if it's surprising, if it's strange, if it, but it's definitely all of the above. And I think it fits into your question as well.
- [41:35]
Kevin Dunn
So I think it's so hard, you gave me the bait. It's so hard whenever the door cracks open for AI, so hard not to, like. All right, well let's just, let's, let's go for another 40 minutes. But what's, like just while we're, we're on it, what's the, what's, what's. What has been your favorite use of like generative AI or AI? Where has it been plugged into in your processes? Like where have you seen the biggest return or most impact or value? Like what's really working for you guys with AI today?
- [42:00]
C
Yeah, I mean we, so we have, we're using it across channels, right? From, I don't know, from Mid Journey to help with the creative process to Jasper to help with copywriting, for example. And I can say the same thing for marketing automation, paid media, et cetera. But one area that maybe that's because the one that I'm more involved in but that has blown my mind is in terms of positioning your services and understanding your audience. It's amazing how the prompt changes the whole answer, right? Especially with ChatGPT 4.0 and now that it has data up until today, essentially, when you use the four point version with Bing, for example, we have the positioning for our agencies in one PDF, right? And it's condensed, I think some of them. It gives you a limit of 50 pages or whatever, but it's 50 pages. Add a letter that it's number six, can fit a lot of text there, right? So, but I don't know, we have a couple of pages for our positioning and our differentiators and our services. And then if you combine ChatGPT with a tool like Phantom Buster, where you can scrape LinkedIn, sales navigator and the audiences and their positions and what they're describing, that their role is in their bio, then, you know, magic starts to happen in terms of, okay, you know what, if I would have to send one message to this person, what would I say? Give me five examples.
- [43:44]
Kevin Dunn
Deeply personalized, deeply contextual. 100%.
- [43:47]
C
Yeah. You know, be more creative. For example, we follow Josh Brown in sales. Right? No. What. Are you familiar with Josh Brown? Yes. Okay. What would he say? You know, that changes the thing. So I've been playing around with those combinations a lot and it's unbelievable. Something that would take us six months and I would be okay with the result now we can do it in a week. And I'm thrilled in. In the terms of creativity, the points that it has, how it goes straight to the problems that. I mean, it's amazing.
- [44:18]
Kevin Dunn
So, yeah, it's deeply powerful. Yeah. To your point, it's happening. It can move so fast. The time savings are immense. But then to your point, it's probably working better than, you know, if you or I tried to scrap, you know, putting something like that together, that type of campaign outreach, you know. Well, Carlos, thanks for indulging me on. I snuck in an AI question there, but as we come up on time, I. We've discussed a lot. Right. Obviously, Condor has grown upwards of 72, 75 employees. Everyone other than yourself has been hired out of LatAm. And there's a number of value adds and meaningful impacts that. That, that that has had on the business operationally, gross margins, a number of different things. And then, you know, there's an opportunity for others to think about growing their team in the same way. There's some guidance you offered about resource planning and how to get started and where to get started. So anyways, so much to. To pull from here, man. Thanks for coming on the podcast and for sharing your story and your insights.
- [45:13]
C
No country man. Thank. Thank you guys for, for. Hi, thank you, Kevin, man. Glad. Glad to be here. Thank you for the opportunity and. And talk soon, man. And, and any. Anyone that again wants to reach out, definitely feel free to do it at our website. It's Condoragency.com. thank you so much.
- [45:30]
Kevin Dunn
Awesome. Well, you heard the man. You know where to find them if you're interested in learning more. Otherwise, this has been another episode of Agency Unfiltered.