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- [00:01]
Host
Hi folks.
- [00:01]
Kevin Dunn
Welcome to agency unfiltered, the HubSpot Solutions Partner Podcast. I'm your host Kevin Dunn and Agency Unfiltered is a weekly web series and podcast that interviews the owners, founders and executives of agencies and services providers from around the world about whatever it takes to grow and scale. This week's guest is Tom Richard, CEO and co founder of Unlimited Tech Solutions. And as his organization knocks on the door of becoming an elite tiered solutions partner, Tom shares the selling and servicing frameworks that have proven to be successful. We start with how he frames his organization in the ecosystem and with a name like Unlimited Tech Solutions, provides a really great hint as to how. And we talk about the win win approach his team takes in selling. Regardless of whether it's pitching net new services, reselling software, co selling with HubSpot reps, or all of the above, he goes into detail as to how he prioritizes things like transparency and proper expectation setting. On the servicing side, he talks about his approach to scoping integrated tech stacks and complex configurations of HubSpot, something I know is top of mind for many. And although it can present a great revenue opportunity, we also discuss the occasional headache inducing experience of being hired to rewire or fix the work done by others in a customer's HubSpot portal. Are you looking to hear more from a team successfully scaling in the HubSpot ecosystem and the strategies that have yielded the greatest impact? Look no further than this week's episode of Agency Unfiltered.
- [01:53]
Host
Hey Tom, welcome to Agency Unfiltered.
- [01:55]
Kevin Dunn
How are you doing?
- [01:56]
Tom Richard
I'm doing well, thanks for having me.
- [01:58]
Host
You betcha. How's the, how's the summer going for you? Run them into Tech solutions. Give me the lay of the land.
- [02:04]
Tom Richard
Summer is good. I am based out in Florida, so it is super hot down here, but all the tourists come down. But no, summer's good. Unlimited Tech Solutions. We are growing. Actually just got three new hires, which is, which is exciting but also a little scary. Right when you. When your head count jumps, jumps like that. But, but, but really well, having a good summer.
- [02:25]
Host
That's great. What's the best month to come visit Florida?
- [02:29]
Tom Richard
Not. I'll tell you what best month. December. Especially if you can get stuff there like when the kids are out of school from like halfway through December through the end of January. Yeah, that. That's the hack. That's. That's. Yep. But a lot of people know that though, so it gets a little bit busy. But that the weather is, is ideal. It's amazing. Don't come in the summer. Everybody comes in the summer.
- [02:50]
Host
I don't know why people come, you know, and that pairs up well because obviously, you know, I'm Massachusetts based. December is also one of the worst months to be in Boston for.
- [02:58]
Tom Richard
Right.
- [02:59]
Host
Whether. So it checks out.
- [03:00]
Tom Richard
That's right.
- [03:01]
Host
Congrats on the new hire. Some what. What roles are they filling? What are they. What are they coming in to do?
- [03:05]
Tom Richard
We just got a new VP of Client Services, which is, you know, it's got to be the right person. So that's been kind of. I've been on the lookout for. For three, four months there. So brought in VP Client Services and we got another technical specialist, so someone that gets into the. More of the technical stuff. And then we actually, we found a really good candidate and created a position that we're just calling HubSpot Implementer, which is kind of like a paralegal if we're in the law law business, where, you know, not customer facing, you know, helps kind of offload a lot of the repetitive stuff and really keeps our people who are really good at solving stuff, solving things and not doing like, you know, repetitive stuff. So I love that.
- [03:43]
Host
Sounds like a major hole to fill. Uh, congrats on the VP role too, again. Right. Has to be the right person. Uh, I can imagine the, the hunt can be laborious. So congrats on finding the right person there. Tech specialist is interesting. Oftentimes, you know, I, I like to use architect. I know folks use solutions engineering too. Is that what this role entails? Is that kind of your. Your frame?
- [04:03]
Tom Richard
Yeah, I'm not. I don't have a PhD in what. What we we call. Call folks. So we just call. We have like a platform specialist, which is one that's just more of a generalist. In HubSpot, we just call Platform Specialist. And then the ones that are getting more like the API work, migration, work wild, like customization, we just call those our technical specialists just so we can differentiate the two.
- [04:28]
Host
No, it checks out. And yeah, I think it's less about what name you want to use, it's more about. All right, well, what's their purview? Remit role responsibilities. Right?
- [04:36]
Tom Richard
Yep. What do you need to do? What does success look like? That's right.
- [04:39]
Host
Well, Tom, actually this feels like a. A pretty good segue to really sink into. Sink our teeth into what we want to talk about. So based on some of the roles and the hires and, and you know, their remits, let's start with Unlimited Tech Solutions as a solutions partner. How do you frame yourselves in the ecosystem? What type of work do you specialized in? Feels like an important baseline to set before we get into some of the other stuff.
- [05:02]
Tom Richard
It is. And if you don't mind, I want to give you a little bit of the origin just because it'll. It'll help. It'll help. It'll kind of help. So we never really, like, set out to, like, it grew a lot faster than we anticipated, I guess is the way I like to say it. But I had reached out to someone that I'd worked with at a previous role, my co founder and cto. His name is Corne van Driel, two and a half years ago or so, and said, hey, I'm thinking of. I'm thinking of starting something. And he said, yes. I said, I haven't told you what it is yet. He goes, you wouldn't have called me if it wasn't a good fit. So the answer is yes. And we talked through the details after that. And he said his ideal role was, you go find people who have problems. You bring me the problems, I will solve the problems. Just keep bringing me new problems. So I handle the business development side, the relationship building, the team building, and he does the architecture and the solution design. It was really the two of us that really started it. And so it was just nothing clever or super creative. It's just like, hey, unlimited tech solutions. It's clear, it's concise, it explains what we do. And jokingly we say, hey, the world's got unlimited problems, so how about we show up with some unlimited solutions? Because every problem has solutions. So that's kind of my way of explaining where do we fit in the ecosystem? We love the weird stuff, man.
- [06:33]
Host
What do you qualify? What's weird? What's weird in the HubSpot ecosystem or like the platform? You know, typically.
- [06:39]
Tom Richard
Not typically, because we do it. We do a lot of bread and butter stuff too, and it pays the bills and it helps fund the payroll. So. So I don't want, I don't want to shy away from that. But the stuff we really get excited about is when another partner or so has said it can't be done. Like, ah, no, that's, you know, can't really do that. You know, that's. It's not really built for that. And so we, we've started to build. Not started, I guess we, we've built a reputation for those who've heard of us as like, like, hold my beer. Let me, Let me call Tom and his team and I'm not saying we solve everything, but we. We love being like, you're a good.
- [07:13]
Host
Person to bring in to try and solve if it can be solved. Yeah.
- [07:16]
Tom Richard
If there was a way, the way would be, you know, this type of thing. And so HubSpot's R and D is amazing. So some of the things that. That immediately come to mind, like what we've solved. HubSpot's actually addressed and found some other ways, but, you know, just things like churn reports for sas. Right. And finding a way to take the deal and then create sub tickets for the months just so we have, like, reportable blocks and then we can do all sorts of wild stuff, you know, with OPS Pro and, you know, really, I don't want to say complicated, because they're not complicated. They're simple. But we're expanding it beyond just like sales process or.
- [07:53]
Host
Yeah. Complex. I don't know.
- [07:54]
Tom Richard
You know. Yeah, right, right. So those are the kind of things that we get into. And then, you know, other things where, you know, I don't think, you know, there's no integration for that. We can't integrate for that. Like. Well, hold on a second. Right, so those, those are the things that we. One of the things we love and we're really passionate about is when it's new every day. Like, we get to wake up. Some people get anxiety over this. We get jazzed by it.
- [08:23]
Host
Well, there's comfort in rinse and repeat bread and butter, to your point. Right. There's comfort in that.
- [08:26]
Tom Richard
I like bread and butter, don't get me wrong.
- [08:28]
Host
Yeah.
- [08:29]
Tom Richard
But what we really love is, like, we wake up and we're like, we have no idea what, what we're gonna find today. Like, my favorite kind of phone calls. When someone calls me, like, all right, so this might time. This might sound crazy, but is there a way? Right? And then they'll. They'll follow with some kind of idea. So, like, that's really where we've positioned ourselves in so doing, man. We do a ton of integration work. We do a ton of mi migration work. We do onboardings. I didn't realize the way we did onboardings was unique until we started interviewing some folks with that. But it's very, very, very hands on.
- [09:03]
Host
Yeah.
- [09:04]
Tom Richard
Again, it wasn't. I didn't think it was unique, but we really get in. Here's how, here's how I usually will explain it. I've gone through HubSpot onboarding twice as a customer before I was a partner. It's lovely. Does a great job explaining the software. You Know, setting your smart goals. It walks it, it's wonderful. Ours is a little different. I like to say, you know, HubSpot's onboarding is kind of like a personal trainer at the gym. Helps explain the machines, the benefits of the exercises. Make sure you're doing it safely. Ours is like six, six friends coming over and helping you move. Right. You gotta be involved because I don't know your house and I don't know your stuff, but I know moving and many hands make light work. So like, we show up, our sleeves are rolled up. We're in there with you, we're building stuff collaboratively. We're in it like we're on the front lines with you and explaining things. Always multiple choice, never fill in the blank. We could do this, pros and cons, or we could do that and then the customer, we lead and then the customer becomes part of our team. And in so doing they learn. And so by the time we're done, we're done. We don't need any retainers. We don't need. Need is the operative word. We don't need a lot of that other stuff because they were part of it. They were part of it from day one.
- [10:17]
Host
So they prepped for self sufficiency. Right. Once they've moved into the new home.
- [10:21]
Tom Richard
Yeah, yeah. And so that's not for everybody, but we've, we've had a lot of luck with the people who, who like that. They find us. They really find us.
- [10:31]
Host
That's great. Tom, let me ask you this. Obviously, like, hey, we like to hang our hat and being the, the partner that folks reach out to and others have said it can't be done, I can imagine, you know, a great, a great niche to carve out. On the other side of that, when and how often do you come in where another partner may be? Hey, I think it can be done. They went in to try and do, but maybe, you know, it's, it's, it's not up to snuff. And so, you know, I, I've heard from other partners and so I'm interested to get your point of view on that. Right, like coming in and potentially fixing the work done by others. Good thing or bad thing for partners?
- [11:08]
Tom Richard
Well, my accounting professor used to always say, well, it depends. So I'm going to say it depends, then I'll expand. If the work has already been done, which is kind of how you framed it, that can be tricky because anytime you're doing work in HubSpot, whether it's onboarding, migration, integration or Anything. There's the actual answer and there's what can you actually get implemented? What can you actually get done? There's a people component. There's internal politics at the client's company. There's budgets to contend with. With. So, you know, just having the right answer is, Is one part. So when it comes to fixing it, sometimes you have to pick your battles, and sometimes you have to pick a battle to fix something. So I am of the belief, the ones that I encounter. Let me say it that way, the ones that I encounter. A lot of times we do have to fix at least a portion of it, especially if it involves data or really the structure of how the objects are related or how the work. Because if you don't fix it, then the work isn't good. Right. Like, then the solution isn't good. And so our reputation is really driven by good work product. Right. Which is really. But the minute I touch someone else's work, it becomes my work.
- [12:31]
Host
That's. Yeah.
- [12:33]
Tom Richard
In the client's mind. And so in a lot of times, this is, this is the tricky part. A lot of times you don't know. You don't know what? You don't know.
- [12:44]
Host
Yeah.
- [12:44]
Tom Richard
You don't. You don't know there's a problem until you're driving down the road, so to speak, and then you're like, whoa, what is this? What is happening here? So we do like to fix the work if it's needed, if it's. If it's. If it's necessary. So typically what we'll do is we'll at least do. Kinda like if you're renting an apartment, right. You do a walkthrough with the landlord. So we might go through and be like, all right, so there's a hole in the wall over here. Not important. We're gonna hang a poster over it. Just know I don't say this, but just know we didn't create the hole. Right. It was here when you moved in.
- [13:19]
Host
Yeah.
- [13:20]
Tom Richard
So we do a little posters before.
- [13:21]
Host
You move in, before you sign, you know. Correct.
- [13:23]
Tom Richard
So we do a little bit of that. And then will typically address like, hey, this just isn't working the way you're doing it. It's not a problem now, but it's going to be a problem in a year. Right. You got 10 people in here now. You're going to have 100 in here in a year. It's going to break. You know it's going to break if you keep doing it this way. And so the short answer is a Lot of times we do have to fix something, whether it's from another partner or more customer.
- [13:49]
Host
You know, they had.
- [13:50]
Tom Richard
It's usually the customer or, or the famous. I don't know, this was three people ago. You know, there's a guy here five years ago and he left and then someone. And it just becomes like this amalgamation of badness.
- [14:03]
Host
Trademarks.
- [14:04]
Tom Richard
Trademarked. If you haven't, you know, that's right. It's just.
- [14:07]
Host
Well, Tom, what's. What would you say when you come in and find things that you do have to fix? Like what are the most common missteps or holes in the wall that you do have to like patch and repair? Right. Obviously you mentioned like, hey, really comes down to the structure and the usage of data. Right. That's probably the baseline for any good solution. But like what are the most common things your team has to come in and fix?
- [14:28]
Tom Richard
I think the most common, most common thing that we would either have to refix or I'm not even say revisit with the client. I mean.
- [14:36]
Host
Yeah, rewire. Yeah, yeah.
- [14:39]
Tom Richard
And this is almost always is, is when it's customer led. Badness is a ridiculous overuse of custom properties because they don't understand how objects that are related to other objects work and why that's a benefit. So they just get like, they just create like 75 different properties and you know, they're properties that belong on the contact but they're on the deal or they're billing amounts on the company which should be on the deal. And then you're just like, wait, wait, wait. So how do you run the this. I'm not going to use any names, but how do you run like who you should bill at the end of the month? Well, it's real easy. I export a file from the company objects and then I, you know, do a Vlookup in Excel after an exit and I'm like, oh my gosh, what are you doing here?
- [15:28]
Host
And they've just built the muscle memory like, yeah, that's just normal. That's just. I know how to do that. That's the routine. And you're like, man, there's a better way to do it.
- [15:34]
Tom Richard
Yes. Yeah. And then it's like, hey, if that person goes away, nobody like that's so. It's so wild that like nobody else would ever know that, you know, so that that's usually the thing that we'll need to address. And then you gotta be like, hey, you know, you know, is there some room to talk about like how this is being done. Because sometimes the answer is no, there isn't. Right.
- [15:57]
Host
Like that's true.
- [15:58]
Tom Richard
There's like, no, that's the way we do it. You know, the accountant does it that way and the accountant says, don't touch my stuff. So you know, it's off, off, off, off the table. And again that's kind of like that half people management and half the technology solution. You gotta. Yeah, yeah, there's some nuance to.
- [16:15]
Host
It's an interpersonal layers to it. Yep, yep, 100%.
- [16:18]
Tom Richard
So, but, but you can't, you can't ignore it. I guess you can't, you know, if something's not the way it needs to be, it's gotta be addressed one way or another. And we passed on projects too when there wasn't a willingness to do that or when somebody really insisted on, you know, doing it in a particular way. It might just be like, I don't think we're going to be successful here. So we're going to. I can refer you out or.
- [16:41]
Host
Yeah, that's actually a qualifier for partnership and their, their openness to reworking some of the, the legacy structuring and set up in their portal.
- [16:49]
Tom Richard
Yeah, yeah, very much so. Very much so.
- [16:52]
Host
So I'm going to pull out of actual, you know, implementation in the product. Obviously we know at the heart, right, the solutions partner program very much tied to a solutions partner's ability to sell. Right. And so I can't imagine being known as the guys who can roll up their sleeves and do the weird stuff. There has to be some other element of sales strategy or methodology that you've put into place. Obviously. No. 2, you're knocking on the door of Elite as well. And so something that you've implemented has, you know, had an impact and allowed you all to grow. So like what does that look like for unlimited tech solutions? What recommendations do you have for others?
- [17:30]
Tom Richard
So, so this is, this is an important topic really when, when it comes to sales, you know, and I'm plugged in on, you know, some of the partner groups and I, I lurk, right. I, I get to read the conversations and honestly same same those opinions and things. Do you need to be able to sell? Yeah, I like to kind of redefine. This isn't for everybody what is selling, right. It's really at least the way that we view it, it's really just helping find a win win for all parties involved. Right. Like anyone that, that, that comes to us or even to HubSpot, right. They've got some kind of pain, some Kind of problem that they, that they're looking for resolution on, period. And so it's really an element of service, like how can I relieve this pain? How can we solve this problem? That solving of the problem and gaining agreement from all parties involved on the solution and what it would cost to put it into place, that is selling. Do you need to be able to do that to be a successful HubSpot partner for us? Yes, 100%, yes. You have to be able to do that. I run into people who sometimes view selling as like a used car salesman. Oh, they're trying to sell me something that I don't want. I have a very strong opinion that that couldn't be furthest from the truth. Right. I don't know anybody in particular other than just folks that I read in some of the channels where they're like, oh, you know, working with HubSpot, you know, oh, they were trying to sell more than they, they need. I have never encountered that. If you were to say, like, hey, like, what was our strategy? Our strategy honestly is just do good work. I'm not, I'm not even kidding like that. It's just do good work, communicate, you know, be honest. But that's not just with the clients, it's also with HubSpot. Right. So if, if we're working with a rep, the rep is trying to make a living too. Right. And a lot of times I'll find, speaking to just partners in general, I'll find like a partner believes that it's either the client or the HubSpot rep. It's both. So as, as a partner, I often find myself working to find resolution for both the HubSpot rep or reps and the client that were and are us. Right. Because I don't want to take on something that's not going to be successful or profitable. So it's really finding a way to synthesize what is the HubSpot rep need and want. What does this customer need and want and finding a win win for everybody. It is not either or. Nobody's out to get anybody. But if you're able to broker that piece, you're. The HubSpot rep is going to close more deals. The customers are going to be happier. The customers are going to have a good experience and you know, if you want to grow in the HubSpot ecosystem, delight the customers that you're working with that are on HubSpot and they will sing your praises back to their rep. And that rep, when they have a choice in bringing somebody in, will bring in the people who are delighting their customers. Right.
- [20:56]
Host
Hubspotters to be advocates and evangelists for the work you can deliver.
- [21:00]
Tom Richard
For the work that you can deliver. Right. So I had a rep, I won't name names. I had a rep who I work with a few folks on his team. He'd bring me something every now and then or bring me in. And he just explained to a customer the other way. He said, I used to do different, different things and not really work with us. And he goes, but a lot of times those customers wouldn't renew because the solution wasn't deep enough. The team wasn't deep enough in the product, you know, other things weren't deep enough. And then some of his other colleagues on the team, they were getting, oh, wow, we didn't even know we were going to use Asana. We didn't even know we could just use the service pipeline and just run that very small process through the service pipeline and Unlimited showed us that. And oh, we're so blown away. Give me Service Pro. We weren't even looking at it. But give us like that's. And is that, is that selling? It depends on your view of, I mean, technically, but it's not like I'm selling them a lemon car. We're really just solving problems at the end of the day. Right. So very, very.
- [22:06]
Host
Not even solving problems like, oh, what are you feeling most acutely. But to your point on retention, you're solving problems in a way that's long tailed. Right. And will, will. Will solve that problem over the long term, Right?
- [22:19]
Tom Richard
Correct.
- [22:19]
Host
And allow for a stickier solution.
- [22:22]
Tom Richard
Yeah, correct. And then they get really, really deep into HubSpot, which they love. We obviously love too. And then, and then HubSpot loves and you know, we've not ever, ever, ever reached out to anyone at HubSpot ever to like to, to recommend us or do any of that. But you know, our clients will refer business to us and then, you know, just again, just kind of organically, you know, one thing leads to another and you know, we've had a pretty fast trajectory. Right. We've hit the total points for Elite. We're just waiting on the managed, which we'll have here in next two or three months. And we've been in business for two months next month. Two, excuse me, two years next month.
- [23:04]
Host
So yeah, that's astronomical.
- [23:06]
Tom Richard
Yeah. So. So it'll be two years. So about two years. So it'll be, I don't know about between two and two and a half years to, to hit, hit Elite. And that's with really no marketing. You know, I'm guessing a lot of the folks, depending on when they're. When they're listening or watching this podcast, probably haven't heard of us. And that's. That's okay. We're not trying to. To, you know, to conquer anything. We just. Honestly, when Cornet and I started the company, you know what our motto was? We were saying it tongue in cheek, but it just kind of became a thing. We'd both kind of come on out, come out of different corporate situations we didn't love. And when we started this, we go, we just want to do good work with good people. That's it, right? We want to live our lives outside of work, and we just want to. We just want to enjoy what we do. We just want to do good work with good people. And that's it, man. That's. That's like. That's the. That's the secret sauce is.
- [23:57]
Host
And even if it's. If it was said or. Or created with, like, tongue in cheek, to be able to boil down the ethos or, like, the driver of the team in just such a succinct way, like, there's a ton of value to that, right?
- [24:09]
Tom Richard
There's a ton of value in that. And then it shows up in the work. Like, we love it. We don't do work we don't love. We don't do traditional inbound marketing. You know, we don't do it. We don't. Because we don't love it. Can we do it, like, in a pinch, if it's needed for, like, a larger solution? Sure. But, like, there's. There's a lot of partners out there that do amazing inbound work. And. And that's just not us. But we do love, you know, when you bring us, you know, some. Some wild and crazy kind of thing, be like, oh, man. And then, because we love it, it shows up in the work. It shows up in the passion. Clients resonate with it, et cetera, et cetera.
- [24:41]
Host
And so to your point, it shows up the passion, the interest in wanting to solve those types of solutions shows up in the work. To your point, too, a big driver for you or your approach is like, all right, we're aware of the intended and ideal outcomes for ourselves, but also any HubSpot reps that are involved and the end customer, and if we can, you know, win, like, win, win, win, you know, that. That yields, you know, a ton of benefits for all parties involved other than just, like, carrying that mindset. Is there Anything that you have to, to surface it, like operationally. Like, how does that manifest itself into like processes, milestones or stages of your deals pipeline to. You know what I mean? Like structurally, process wise, how does that stuff come through?
- [25:22]
Tom Richard
So this sometimes can get, can, can be kind of a controversial stance, at least in the partner ecosystem. But like how we structure it, how we do our process is really just simple. This isn't entirely true, but we do a lot of just time and materials work. We don't get into points, we don't get into all the value bracing. I get it. But I feel like it puts us on the opposite side of the client when we do that. So when it comes to process, it's really just simple estimating. Can we estimate it? Can we define the scope? If not, we might do a paid scoping. And this is what we charge, this is how much it is. We're on the higher end of the hourly rate. But like I told a client earlier this morning, my hour isn't the same as your hour as far as what can be accomplished because we do this, you know, every day. So we really structure it. Simple. But like everything from our project management and the way we run our projects is over communicating, right? So just really being aware. We do for, for our larger, for our larger, like enterprise level ones. We just little simple things like a weekly project management. Here's where we're running on budget, here's where we're running on tasks. We're on track, we're off track. We're big believers in surfacing and sharing literally everything, every task, every note. We do have an internal Slack channel so that we do get to have some private conversations. All the work product is very transparent, very, very, very open. What are you doing? What's next? Where are we at? Are we on track? Are we off track? Both as a team with the client, we're open budget, right? Just the budget is what the budget is. Because I feel like that puts us on the same side as the client. And then I can be like, so what do you want to do? So here's a quick example. We had a client, we're working on a really big solution design and it involves the tax product Avalara, and they have a premium product and they have a very, very discounted product. And the client said, hey, can you look at the discounted product it would save? And so we approached that and went through it and we had to just come back to them and just say no. No is the short answer, right? And then look at so we evaluate it but then ultimately we just have to be communicative with, with everything. Literally. Literally with everything. But again with the client. But also if you're co selling or, or, or even with the, even if it's a HubSpot rep that, that ended up referring it, give them, give him or her updates so that they know where things are at. So that there, there's really no surprises. So it's the communication. But I think underneath that is really relationships too. Right. Just with, with staff and then you know, with, with reps. So process. I don't, there's no, no secret or anything other than, you know, just we use just standard kind of waterfall project planning on ClickUp.
- [28:20]
Host
Yeah.
- [28:20]
Tom Richard
Which is.
- [28:22]
Host
But it sounds like even if it's. You're like hey listen, it's nothing out of the ordinary, it does sound like there's a commitment here to like operating and working in public and being as transparent as possible regardless of systems and process being transparent, giving clients access to the information, progress requirements, etc. That seems to be the extra layer.
- [28:40]
Tom Richard
And that is baked into the ethos and that comes from some of the experiences that both Corne and I had in previous like corporate type roles where you know, I don't know my, I'm just speaking just for me as an individual, when I didn't have some of that transparency on the, when I was on the customer side, it. I don't know, there's always like a question mark around the trust. Whereas if something is going right or something's going wrong, just be like, hey Mr. Customer, bad news. Right? This is the thing that happened. This is what we're going to do about it. This is how we're going to make sure it doesn't happen again. Right? Just like everything just, just tell on yourself immediately and then, and then, you know, they'll understand and then make sure you follow up on that. Right. Don't do this.
- [29:32]
Host
Yeah, don't let it come up again.
- [29:34]
Tom Richard
Say what you're going to do and do what you say.
- [29:37]
Host
I love that. Tom, I want to go back a little bit to the solutions architecture, design component. You brought up something interesting. It's like hey listen, we come in. But there is a point in which we actually need to move over to more of a paid scoping. Right. So I can imagine for any pre sales process, especially if it's a complex configuration work like yeah, you scope pre sales and you give client access, like what's the determining factor? When does the scale tip to the point where like actually this has to be a paid service to kick it off.
- [30:05]
Tom Richard
That, that's a really good question. And it's been happening more and more, especially as we get into some of the larger, some of the larger kind of solution designs. Some of it depends on the customer and their comfort with time and materials. Right. So time and materials, we do it because it keeps us flexible. Right. But there's some uncertainty there too, which, you know, some customers like, like a flat rate. But flat rate you can really only do if you really, really, really know the scope in the sales process. We will get into as much discovery as time allows because sometimes we get brought in really late or a customer will come to us because they were working with a different partner and they had a surprise at the end that they didn't appreciate and they just did a good old fashioned Google search. And so they'll kind of come to us and they already have like a timeline baked in their mind. So sometimes we don't have time to really do a full discovery, nor do we have like the rapport to really do.
- [31:06]
Host
Your point, the relationship element. Right. Is such a critical piece if you haven't been able to establish it. Sure, yeah.
- [31:11]
Tom Richard
And so what usually will tip the scale is not, not even just the quantity of variables, but the, I don't want to say risk because risk is too strong. The implications of the stakes.
- [31:27]
Host
The stakes, like, you know, hey, this.
- [31:29]
Tom Richard
Could be A or B, and if it's A, it's a wildly different solution versus if it's B. Right. And so, so some of those, if it's, if it's a M, then it's not just like, oh, we're going to be off by a couple grand. No, we might have a wildly different solution design. So that's usually when I'll pivot and just say, okay, what I, what we want to do, and here's usually the way I explain it is let's say it's a $50,000 massive customization. I might say, hey, the first fifth of that, even if you gave me all the money right now, said Tom, let's go. I'm still taking the first 20% of this engagement. And we're doing a full solution design. We're mapping it out. We're going to do a full disc. Like even if you gave me all the money right now, said, let's go. So what I'm proposing would be let's chop it at the first 20%. That's all you're committing to now. We'll do the full discovery, the full Solution design and then I'll know exactly. Is it another 40? Maybe it's only 30. Maybe, maybe it's 60. I'll note to the penny because we did the full solution design with a buildable blueprint and you know, the whole process diagram everything. And you're not losing anything on the timeline because I'm going to do it anyway. The only difference is your level of commitment. You're only committing to 20% of it. And I tell people this, and I mean it sincerely. You can walk it across the street too and hand it to somebody and have them build it. Because you're paying me for it. Right. And you're paying me for it. I've never had that happen. But it is, there's comfort in having.
- [33:04]
Host
That as an option. If you know, yeah, sure, sure.
- [33:07]
Tom Richard
So I'll, I'll do that. The one thing that does complicate sometimes is if I'm work, if, if HubSpot sourced it and brought it to me, it doesn't help on the timeline. Right. Like if there's some kind of special promotion going on or there's some time based stuff. So, so that can be, that can be really a fine line.
- [33:27]
Host
So do you ever find the necessity for that approach, like breaking it up? We need it, you know, we need that the paid scoping engagement separate or like that's what we recommend. Do you ever run into friction where like that comes up against maybe what a HubSpot rep involved in the deal is hoping for too and, or the customer, like what's the, what's the call? Where do you err if a decision has to be made one way or the other?
- [33:47]
Tom Richard
What I'll usually do is I usually end up calling the rep, just calling them directly and just telling them what's going on, like what the situation is and saying, hey, this is what I need that I had this happen recently. I'm like, I don't want to say they were leaning on me. Let's just say I could tell in their eyes they were hopeful it was going to be a simple solution and it wasn't. There were some, there were some ugly stuff that we uncovered. And so we had a call, I said, this is, I really want to be able to present this, that or the other thing we ended up doing. It ended up being exactly the right solution and it was exactly the right problem. But I just had to have a conversation about the timeline and where we're at and then just working with them on, okay, is there value? Like because let's say a Solution, let's say they're hoping to get the deal in before the end of a quarter and the solution design might take three or four weeks, which would be into the next quarter. Right. And so sometimes we just have to, we just have to kind of game plan on, you know, is there value in getting some HubSpot now so that we can do that? Is there not? And sometimes there's not. But I don't, don't spring it on them without talking to them first. Right? Yeah.
- [34:59]
Host
And just be, be straightforward, be direct and just enroll them in, hey, short term pain, you know, maybe it pushes out timelines and I know you probably have some cool but like long term gain here if we're going to scope this incorrectly.
- [35:09]
Tom Richard
And that's usually where it goes too. Right. So, so a short, quick, quick win is usually a smaller purchase than if we do the full solution like the one I was just mentioning where, you know, it was kind of a surprise but it went from, I forget which two hubs, but two hubs to the full suite with the solution design. And we ended up solving, we ended up solving the real problem is the way I want to say it. Right. We were, we were just talking about symptoms before and when we got into is a custom, a custom program and some other. And I'm like, oh my gosh, that's not the problem problem at all. It's actually this other thing. But if we did this, that or the other thing when we talk about.
- [35:47]
Host
Solutions that lead to retention, long term retention and stickiness, like that's what you're, that, that is what you're looking for here. Right? That's what absolutely ended up for this customer.
- [35:55]
Tom Richard
Yep, absolutely. So, but again, it just boils down to, you know, putting all your cards on the table just. Or I like the phrase you used operating in public. Right? That's it, it's just, it's just operating in public and man, it's so much more comfortable. Right. Because you don't need to, you just, it is what it is, you know, and you communicate openly and clearly and you're direct about it and, and then again it really boils down to is the work product good? Period.
- [36:27]
Host
Now Tom, as we push up on time, I want to try and squeeze in. I have a, I have one last question. I'll get, I want to save time for. So we'll get there but I want to try and squeeze in one, one more here too. And so as you alluded to, there's a number, there's a big ecosystem of partners around HubSpot. And to your point, there's a number of them that offer traditional inbound marketing services and engagements, et cetera. Now, the types of services and the things we're talking about here, many. My read is that many want to start translating. Hey, how do we go from marketing to ops? How do we go from inbound engagements to rev Ops consultancy? How do we get into integrated platforms, you know, configuration architecture, Just all this stuff. People want to make this move. What's the number one consideration that they need to. To have in mind? Recommendation to find success here, Risks that they can mitigate. Right. So what's your tip here for folks looking to make this transition for their place in the ecosystem? Does that make sense?
- [37:21]
Tom Richard
It does. And my advice is going to be find something in order. Find something within Rev Ops or just the operations side that you love, that you're going to be good at or great at, and then find a customer that's going to let you prove it so that you've got some stories to tell about stuff that you've done. And then, then bring in your marketing and bring in your positioning. And I know all the marketers that are listening are going to be like, that is exactly wrong. My own marketing guy on our team, Kevin, might even say, I'm telling you, if you do it the other way around, you're gonna miss something or you're gonna. Don't adjust your services to the position. Adjust your position to what you're great at. Because if you're not great at it or you're not passionate at it, it's when, when you're really great at something and you're passionate at it, that's when you're gonna really, really, really be good at it. So just really evaluate, like, okay, so what would fall under the RevOps banner? Okay, it'd be these. All right, of those, what do I love? Where do I get joy? Where am I and what do I hate doing? Right? I hate the inbound stuff, like the blogs. I just don't, I don't get Joy. I know.
- [38:36]
Host
You know there's a HubSpot podcast, man, you gotta like that. How do you not like. How do you not like?
- [38:39]
Tom Richard
I like having it. I just, personally, I need somebody who loves it on the team. Let me say it. I just don't like it. Personally, I love, you know, the really, the really tricky stuff. I like the, the puzzles. So that's really where we positioned. And so that's why things clicked organically, right? That's why things clicked so that my advice just kind of summarized would be don't, don't like look for the demand first and then adjust your. Because it's, it's going to fall flat, in my opinion. Yeah, but look, there was a recent episode.
- [39:13]
Host
Yeah, it's actually just talking to another part of like, hey, we're actually in the midst of this transition and from like a servicing capability perspective, they were like, oh, we're like 85% of the way through the transition, marketing, branding, positioning, go to market, we're like 40% of the way there. So crop rates I think would be a recommendation. Perfect. You know.
- [39:28]
Tom Richard
Yeah, I love that. And to those who maybe even haven't considered it yet, I'll bet you you're more rev ops than you realize if you really look at the stuff you're doing because you can't, you can't not be with where things are at today. So.
- [39:44]
Host
Very true.
- [39:44]
Tom Richard
Yeah.
- [39:45]
Host
And like what customers are looking for, what their expectations are for their systems of record, etc too. Right? Final question. We wrap every episode with the same one. What's the strangest part of agency life?
- [39:59]
Tom Richard
The strangest part of agency life I would have to say, at least for me, I stopped saying I've seen it all. So to me, to me it's just like, you got to be kidding me with this stuff. I've been doing this a long time. Right? A long time. Not even just HubSpot, just. And man, I see some wild stuff. I gotta tell you one quick example just so people can get a laugh.
- [40:24]
Host
You can't say that and not give us an example of some wildest.
- [40:27]
Tom Richard
Yeah, I had a customer bring me. I'm not making this up. A 7,000 page Word document in alphabetical order with their customers and notes in absolutely no uniform way. That was their database, 7,000 pages and they needed a migration option. And that's one where I'm like sitting there and I'm like, say that again. And then I'd have to like repeat it back to them because like I'm still in disbelief. And it's just like it sells what I love about it too, but it's just like you gotta, it's just, it's just wild. Some of the, some of the stuff that you see, to me that's hilarious.
- [41:11]
Host
For real though, where's your database? No, that's funny but like where is it really though, right?
- [41:16]
Tom Richard
Let me repeat this back to you. So you're saying. So that, that, that's got to be the, the, the just the strangest stuff.
- [41:24]
Host
How'd the migration go with that, by the way?
- [41:26]
Tom Richard
It actually went well because we went, we went old school and we found some, some folks who can just. I mean that's, I heard once the, the analog to digital conversion tool is an intern is. Is something somebody told me once that was essentially we went that route and you know, it was easy to understand if you're a human being. You know what I should have looked at chat GPT.
- [41:52]
Host
Well, it depends on how, how far. How, how long ago was that that situation versus what was the emergence of generative AI to. Yeah but maybe. Right. Maybe at least get it in a template like a table view or something, you know. Yeah.
- [42:05]
Tom Richard
So. But anyway, that would be the strangest, the strangest part. Just the, the things you see. The things you see along the way.
- [42:11]
Host
Some rough and tumble systems that people have put themselves in, you know, very.
- [42:16]
Tom Richard
Innovative ways of cobbling the strangest things together.
- [42:21]
Host
Innovative is really pragmatic way to label it. So that's, that's good. Well Tom, I think we'll, we'll, we'll wrap. Appreciate the insights. Learning about unlimited tech solutions, obviously the type of work that you guys seek out and find energy in. It feels like there was a ton of actionable insights here too as it relates to like methodologies, ethos, structures, processes, sales, client engagements, working with HubSpot. So there's a ton here, man. So thanks so much for coming on the pod. It's been, it's been great.
- [42:46]
Tom Richard
Thank you for having me.
- [42:48]
Host
For everyone that's tuned in today, this has been another episode of agency unfiltered.
- [42:57]
Tom Richard
S.A. sAM.