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- [00:00]
A
Because we have the app, we get more projects that go to HubSpot and Orderwise respectively. But it also helps to win deals where we've done hunting for the server side of the business. Because when we say, look, well, we've already done this integration, we've had experience doing this, or we're experienced in ERP integrations, because here's one that we've built and replicated for multiple people. It does help win the deal by.
- [00:25]
B
Part of the AI shift that we're all experiencing means reimagining our relationship to building apps like Replit and Lovable make it easy for anyone to build an idea into an app in just minutes. And many of our solution partners are productizing their services to accelerate and scale delivery for their customers. Today's guest, Darrell Michell, founder of Cogent Connective, a Platinum solutions partner based out of Scotland, is no stranger to dual identity. In fact, they're both a solutions and an App partner with HubSpot focused on complex ERP implementations as a service partner made easy with our product OW Sync, which connects orderwise erp. I'm excited to get into how Daryl is thinking about scaling and shifting Cogent Connective on today's show. Darrell, welcome to owning the outcome.
- [01:26]
A
Thank you very much, Sarah. Great to be on.
- [01:28]
B
So Cogent Connective is both a HubSpot Solutions and app partner with OW Sync on our app Marketplace. What made you decide to build on and with the platform?
- [01:39]
A
Yeah, it's a great question. It really started when we started the business and we started doing work with the Orderwise ERP platform quite a bit with customers and we were seeing the need to integrate with better CRMs. And predominantly that was HubSpot. And initially we started out on the Solutions Partner program and we became a Solutions partner scaled quickly to gold, and then we targeted Platinum. And on that journey we were doing the integrations between HubSpot and Orderwise ERP. And more than anything, we wanted to solve our own problem. That was repetition and repeat integrations. But during that process, we also discovered how easy it was to become an app partner for HubSpot with the right tools and the right knowledge and the right backing. And the Solutions Partner development manager was very supportive of that. And it just. Yeah, it just gelled. It was such an easy route to market. We were solving for the client, but also solving for our own internal, internal challenges, which was great, great.
- [02:44]
B
Tell me, what is the business case for turning a service into a product for all of our listeners? When did you realize that ow sync could be SaaS, not just a service line.
- [02:56]
A
When we realized that the issue was both in our own internal team's time, repeating the same things over and over again, coming up against the same challenges, and also when we realized that the customers needed a better solution to constantly going back to the dev teams for making amendments, it became like a natural, natural thing for us to go, well, look, if we build something that we internally can use and it scales us faster as a company because we can grow faster, because we can get more projects out the door and then taking it a step further and going, well, what if the client didn't need to rely on us as a solutions partner all the time for doing development work, but actually they could make the changes on the fly. That was when it was like, well, this is a no brainer. It's not insignificant in the cost element to put quality time into the development process, but it has definitely started to pay off. Now we've been six months as an app partner and probably three months into the on the App Store.
- [03:58]
B
One thing I'm curious about is how do you handle conflicts? When a service client wants a custom feature that would benefit your app, but they don't want to pay for the product development, how do you handle that? Because it's something that I think is super. It's like that piece you just have to balance when you're in app development.
- [04:18]
A
Yeah, no, it's absolutely true. And we get it all the time. So many people come to us and they say, hey, look, we have this feature in our ERP and we want to replicate it in HubSpot. And generally the way we solve that is by going back to the drawing board as to what the actual problem is or the request and walking the customer through their own thoughts to the point that they either see that this is really a need or a desire that has to be solved, or actually it's no longer important because we were just trying to sort the symptoms of a problem and not the actual problem itself. And when clients do want really custom development, there's either another app that solves for that, that integrates perfectly with HubSpot, or we'll do a little bit of scoping and find out if it can be used by other people. If neither of those work and it's just going to be simply for that one client, then it is going down the route of custom development. At that point, it's probably more of a solutions partner thing just in the general development process rather than building it specifically into the app. But I think that's What I like about HubSpot versus any other system that we've worked with is that we have that freedom of choice between doing it on the solution side or doing it on the app partner side. Is it something that we can scale for development or is it something that the client's willing to make that investment to see the return in their sales growth? Because ultimately our focus is to fix the client's systems to get them better growth in their company.
- [05:42]
B
What magic question do you ask to get a customer to realize that they don't need something as much as they thought they needed it? Just talk me through that.
- [05:51]
A
Yeah, I think it's going back to those five whys and just understanding which is where the bit of scoping comes in. It can be a long process. Sometimes it can be several months. Other times it can be, you know, solved in an hour because it's very, very simple. Other times it requires on site sessions. Recently we did three days on site for a client to solve, you know, particular process challenges. So it's, it is variable. And one thing I'd say to anyone listening is if you're in this business of scoping, charge for it. Because whilst it might seem like you're uncompetitive or somebody else is going to come in and undercut you, clients value that both parties make an investment into this process. So do not skimp on it. And yeah, I see conversations all the time. The debate is like, should you charge for scoping and audits? My answer is you should, because it's your time. And we're seen as our SMEs in our own respective industries or verticals, and the clients make a commitment and they don't waste your time. And I think from a client perspective, when they, when they pay, there's this kind of ownership. Right? We want to make the best out of this and we're going to help in that process.
- [07:00]
B
So the other thing that you've done very successfully is that you've really carved out a niche for yourself with orderwise and ERP integrations. Something we say to partners all the time is like, you know, try to pick some specialization. Why did you choose that, you know, to go specialize there? And has that decision paid off for you?
- [07:21]
A
Very good question. Well, shout out to Niamh, who is our partner manager for a long time since we started the program, because she hammered home the thing, carve out your niche, find the niche. And actually for us, it was so obvious, it was staring us in the face. We didn't see it to start With I've spent probably the last 10 years before we started this business in a family business, in a distribution business, selling workwear and personal protective equipment. And we used HubSpot and Orderwise and Orderwise was the first system that I learned to use and I went quite deep in learning, understanding it. So we carried that knowledge of business systems in use in a business, not just, hey, HubSpot's cool, let's use it sort of thing. We actually did use HubSpot and Orderwise in Anger on a day to day basis, just walking through it like we understood the processes. So coming into this business and whilst we do consultancy for most systems now, we do, you know, for Orderwise and HubSpot, we do just specialize in those areas because we've used them on a daily basis and we understand how it feels to be on the receiving end of something good or bad. And it's for us to be able to help feed the challenges back to HubSpot and to Orderwise respectively, you know, in user feedback, but also for the client side is to be able to share those successes and wins where we know something's going to work. And I think the other thing is we're also then seen as SMEs subject matter experts in those two particular areas. The number of projects that we've won because we knew both systems and sometimes, yeah, people think, well, I'm going to lose out on other projects. It's not necessarily the case. I think having a specialist area or having an area of expertise is actually really valuable because you, you can transfer that knowledge sometimes with systems. Whilst we focus on distribution, manufacturing and wholesale with those two systems, we can also help across other industries because we can take knowledge. So it's not totally restrictive, but where the main bulk of our business comes from, it's like just go narrow and deep and it starts to build up and it definitely has paid off for us. We're seeing it projecting very good numbers just because we focus deep into that one area.
- [09:41]
B
One thing that I would be fascinated to ask you just, you know, before when I was thinking about talking to you in this episode, is the cost per acquisition of the difference between it coming from the app partner side through the app versus your services side, you know, which feeds the other more effectively.
- [10:04]
A
That is a really interesting conversation because we've been discussing this internally and it's very, I would say because we have the app, we get more projects that go to HubSpot and Orderwise respectively. But it also helps to win deals where we've Done hunting for you for the service side of the business. Because when we say look, well, we've already done this integration, we've had experience doing this, or we're experienced in ERP integrations because here's one that we've built and replicated for multiple people. It does help win the deal. But I think we're seeing most of our business come right now from the app partner side of it. Just going back to your intro, you were saying about there being different platforms now like Replit and even Bolt and these ones where you can give it your brief or your scope and say, this is what I want to integrate. This is the platform, this is the code language I want you to use. Just on Friday we were doing exactly that with a new potential feature within the HubSpot extensions library that we can say, look, hey, we can now build something inside of HubSpot that helps users where HubSpot doesn't solve for that particular problem already. And we could launch it on the App Store. And you know, with AI now it takes, you know, that development process from months down to weeks and possibly even days if someone's sitting there doing it constantly. So time to value is much less. Yeah, time to value is much less now. And consequently the cost per acquisition goes down and your revenue correspondingly goes up and profit does too. So weirdly enough, we came in with the solutions partner program, but that's accelerated by having an app.
- [11:41]
B
So you're a double threat and it sounds like it is double the opportunity when it comes from the app and the services side. Yeah, I often wondered about that. What about the trade offs of being an app partner versus a service partner and how do you manage that? Both, I suppose, inside. Inside one company where you know, you've in a split purpose love to get what you know, an insight into how your company deals with this.
- [12:09]
A
Yep, that's a good question. So we purposely split the resource so that we weren't competing for resources. Because what you could find is that people that are knowledgeable in one particular area may want to just assist with doing the development as well. Yeah, because it's easy enough to sort of. There are lots of people in the development and solutions partner program, app development partner and partner program where they're either freelancers or consultants or something like that. And you can tap into that resource if you're starting out as a smaller company, maybe one or two people, you know, you can tap into that resource to help you to scale when you become bigger and you're scaling in the program and you are doing a lot more solutions partner side and you're starting to focus seriously on the app partner side. It becomes you have to almost split it into two cost centers. Sales wise, it's much easier because we can split. The reps are just like they can sell whatever they need to depending on the solution. Development and delivery side is very much two different sets of people to the point that some of the solutions side of the business don't fully understand the workings of the app side of it. Will that come in time? Yes, but initially as we're going through this growth phase, it's like, no. We have people who understand their specific requirements and it's the role of that project manager to be able to bring those together. If you've got both sides of the team on that project delivering something, the project manager brings those together and makes sure that it's a seamless.
- [13:45]
B
But you mentioned something there about the sales team that on the sales team they sell kind of whatever it is they need to sell. So on the sales side they sell whatever it is they need to sell. Can you maybe talk me through a recent customer win where that was a real power that helped you unlock an outcome?
- [14:05]
A
There's a couple of projects come to mind. I'll start first with the one where we sold both the app and the. Well, our own app and the solution side of it. And that was an inquiry from a old customer that had moved companies and they came into a new. A new business and they said, look, hey, we need HubSpot implemented because I've seen it working and I know you guys are partners in it. And at that point we were able to go in deep and understand their needs. Just so happens they use orderwise as well. And at that point we realized actually, yeah, we can solve this on both fronts and it's worked really well. And then the projects team take that forward and take it from the salesman. There's another project which we did recently where we took the concept and the learnings that we'd had from ERP Systems and we actually turned HubSpot into their sales machine. Right from lead inquiry right through to invoicing. And this client does stock. And to start with, when we went on this journey with them, we said, no, we're not going to do this. This is a job for another system. You really need a full ERP system. And the client pushed back and said, no, we're really keen to use HubSpot. We want to make it work with HubSpot. So we scoped it out properly and Figured that actually we could do it. There was some risks, but the client accepted responsibility for that. And we said, look, we'll guide you as far as we can through this process with the knowledge of the ERP systems and how they work and make HubSpot do as much as we can. And that necessitated us maxing out at a pro level. Bear in mind, this is not enterprise level, so a pro level. We maxed out the property, calculated property limits, we used custom code and we ended up upgrading them to the customer suite. And I think understanding all areas of the department and who would be involved or departments and who would be involved across the company, consulting them, getting their ideas, understanding the data structure is really key. And that's where, although we didn't use our own app in this instance because it was no integration to be done, we were able to use team members from that particular resource to share ideas on how something could be done if we were doing an ERP integration or, you know, we integrated with Xero. The other aspect was we used apps that already been developed by other app partners to Xero, to Google Docs, um, so shout out, to cloudify and also to Portent, who are both solid apps in the app partner side. And we were able to use those to deliver that full solutions project. So it went from lead quotation through to order acknowledgement through to delivery. So we're getting delivery notes out of HubSpot and progressing it finally to invoice. So we did stretch the limits of what people sometimes are prepared to do and the client has, has seen an increase in increase in sales from that as a result.
- [17:00]
B
So you're there, you talk me through kind of the power of what you can do internally with your sales team because they understand both the services side and the app side that you're bringing together to unlock that. When you think about the HubSpot sales reps and they're on the front line with customers every day and they're selling HubSpot and they may not know the power of an app partner and what an app partner can bring to it. What, what would you say to those sales reps, and not just HubSpot sales reps, but to other solution partners who maybe haven't fully understood the unlock power of joining in an app partner into that mix.
- [17:37]
A
So understanding that actually reviewing the app marketplace as a partner or as a sales rep to understand what's in there is super important because there are so many skilled and quality app partners out there who have solved some really challenging problems and they're not problems that the system creates, it's just that clients have some difficult needs sometimes and we need to think outside the box and they've developed for them. So don't discount something immediately. Do some research. And I know that some of the reps have said to us that if it wasn't for a solution to an integration like orderwise, we wouldn't have been able to secure that deal. And it's not anything necessarily a reflection on us, it's just in that process, sometimes the client will demand something and we can be quick just to say we can't do that, which from one aspect is fine because we don't want to waste time on challenging projects or that are going to cause us a headache. But there might be a solutions partner, I mean an app partner out there who can help you side by side to deliver that project. And I know that we certainly do in different projects. We've got two in the pipeline at the moment, different solutions partners have done the hard work and the research and progressed the projects to the point that HubSpot will get the, get the deals, but we're going to come in on the app side to assist them directly with the client to integrate. So it's, I think the way we view it as it's a win win. It has to be a win win for the client and in that case everybody will win out of it. I think HubSpot is the only program that I've been a part of where there's so much collaboration between people.
- [19:12]
B
How is AI making things easier for you or clearer for customers?
- [19:17]
A
And I think onto the subject of AI, I think it really assists on a day to day basis in being another head for every one of the staff to be able to talk to. And particularly for paid accounts, if everyone understands the difference between paid and free free, generally the data is used for, you know, building up the AI bank of knowledge, et cetera. But for paid accounts, generally, do your homework on this. But generally they are not using your data to, you know, to build their models. And for us we've gone heavy into that and made sure that people understand how to use AI internally. Whether that's understanding a detailed brief, whether that's highlighting project risks that maybe we just have overlooked, or even for making suggestions as to how we could be a bit more creative in what we're doing. Sometimes it's drafting summaries to documents, preparing slide decks. There's some awesome tools out there that you can use and most of them are double digits only per month. And the return that you get from investing in AI and not just using it as like a kind of ad hoc thing that like, well, maybe I should try it, but actually committing to it and going deep into it and going, right, if I was to use this as a companion, how do I use it in the office? Like, what kind of things? Can I ask it? Just a recent example we took on a family member who was kind of new to the area of HubSpot. And so we said, look, just, just use HubSpot and use AI to understand how to use HubSpot. So you've got the, you got the academy. But then when it comes to like changing something within HubSpot, just say, look, hey, how do I do this? How do I do this? And it comes up with suggestions and it kind of teaches you to be more self directed.
- [20:56]
B
Looking ahead, what's next for cogent connective? And I mean, how do you see the role of integration evolving in this AI first future?
- [21:06]
A
Good question. With the speed at which AI is moving and things like MCP servers, standardizing of integration language, et cetera, integrations will become easier to do because AI will probably take a lead in that. Maybe we're sort of six to nine months before that becomes a major threat to integration people. But I think it won't become a threat if we understand how to use it and we change. It's like, it's really like trying to still trying to sell newspapers when you can read the news online. And I think at some point there's going to be a changeover. But right now there's so many different, varied languages for different systems and AI doesn't have the context that it needs for every company's use case of that system. So the role of a consultant or somebody who's doing scoping is super important because we can take that context and feed it back into the AI tool or whatever it is to feed it with that information to help us then deliver projects faster. So I think for the foreseeable future it's going to continue to be an assistant, not a master.
- [22:11]
B
Well, it sounds like you believe humans will sit alongside AI and play a role in the future, especially when it comes to human oversight, amongst other things. I've really enjoyed diving into the world of HubSpot partners that are dual citizens like yourself. Thank you so much for insights and if you enjoyed this episode, do me a favor and hit the subscribe button.
- [22:34]
A
Thank you, Sarah.