Podcast Summary: "Kevin Scott on The Future of Programming, AI Agents, and Microsoft’s Big Bet on the Agentic Web"
Podcast: AI and I
Host: Dan Shipper
Guest: Kevin Scott (CTO, Microsoft)
Date: May 20, 2025
Episode Overview
This episode features a deep dive into the evolving landscape of software engineering and AI agents with Kevin Scott, Microsoft’s CTO. The conversation revolves around the transformation from scaling large language models to creating an “agentic web”—an ecosystem that empowers AI agents to take meaningful action and interact with diverse information sources and platforms. Scott and Shipper discuss the technical, cultural, and philosophical implications of this shift, the challenges of protocol and security, and the enduring value of craft in programming.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. From Scaling Laws to the Agentic Web (02:17)
- 2024 vs. 2025: Last year, the AI community was focused on scaling laws and infrastructure. In 2025, the emphasis has shifted toward enabling agents to reason and act in complex environments.
- Quote: “Last year people were really in this state of mind… doubting that the scaling laws were gonna continue… We've demonstrated year after year that they are intact and working quite well.”
— Kevin Scott (02:18)
- Quote: “Last year people were really in this state of mind… doubting that the scaling laws were gonna continue… We've demonstrated year after year that they are intact and working quite well.”
- Capability Overhang: Modern models possess more advanced reasoning abilities than most current applications use (“capability overhang”), suggesting the need to close the gap between what’s possible and what’s being delivered.
- Limitations Today: Current agents have limited memory and transactional behavior, restricting their ability to handle complex, multi-step tasks.
2. Building the Agentic Web: Protocols and Ecosystems (03:28; 04:51)
- Necessity of Openness: Agents need access to a “web-like” ecosystem—interconnected APIs and protocols (like the new MCP protocol) enabling seamless tool and information use.
- Quote: “You need an ecosystem that looks a lot like the Internet… where agents can talk to those things and all the incentives are aligned.”
— Kevin Scott (04:51)
- Quote: “You need an ecosystem that looks a lot like the Internet… where agents can talk to those things and all the incentives are aligned.”
- Microsoft’s Role: Microsoft aims to standardize protocols internally (even referencing Conway’s Law), ensuring that organization structure doesn’t impede agent efficiency.
- Quote: “You ship your org chart… you don’t want to be shipping your org chart when you are building your agents.”
— Kevin Scott (07:44)
- Quote: “You ship your org chart… you don’t want to be shipping your org chart when you are building your agents.”
- Open Protocols: Emphasis on contributing to openly-developed protocols, so tools remain interoperable across the industry.
3. Challenges: Security and Permissionless Innovation (09:33; 12:41)
- Security Concerns: MCP and related protocols currently lack robust security models akin to the Internet’s ‘same-origin policy’.
- Quote: “We need agents to have identities so that you can build entitlement systems… so you can say this agent is acting on behalf of this person.”
— Kevin Scott (10:18)
- Quote: “We need agents to have identities so that you can build entitlement systems… so you can say this agent is acting on behalf of this person.”
- Open vs. Closed Ecosystems: Scott argues for permissionless innovation, advocating open systems that foster creativity without unnecessary gatekeeping—while still achieving security through AI-enhanced entitlements and monitoring.
- Quote: “Some of these middle layers… just aren’t contributing much value to the two parties that matter: the person who made a thing and the people who want to access the thing.”
— Kevin Scott (13:33) - Quote: “You can have both. I don’t think it needs to be one or the other.”
— Kevin Scott (15:31)
- Quote: “Some of these middle layers… just aren’t contributing much value to the two parties that matter: the person who made a thing and the people who want to access the thing.”
4. The Evolving Craft of Programming (16:24)
- Tradition Meets Transformation: Scott celebrates diverse and passionate opinions about how people create—whether in programming or woodworking, he recognizes the value in both traditional craft and leveraging new tools.
- Quote: “If you are really passionate about what you do, you’re going to have very strong opinions about how you do it.”
— Kevin Scott (16:29) - Reminisces about using VI (VIM) despite leading a company that makes Visual Studio Code, highlighting that personal preference and craft remain important even amid technological change.
- Analogy: Debates about “real” woodworking tools vs. CNC or power tools mirrors debates in programming regarding agent use.
- Quote: “If you are really passionate about what you do, you’re going to have very strong opinions about how you do it.”
- Advice for Makers: Stay open-minded and curious. Experiment with new technologies and adopt what works for you.
- Quote: “Just be curious, try stuff and if it works for you, use it. And if it doesn’t, don’t.”
— Kevin Scott (20:46)
- Quote: “Just be curious, try stuff and if it works for you, use it. And if it doesn’t, don’t.”
5. Multiplicity of AI Agents and Their Diversity (21:01)
- Pluralism of Agents: The future likely involves many specialized agents, not a single dominant one. Developers cherish the ability to select and switch tools.
- Quote: “Part of the joy of being a developer is you have that choice and you can play around with a bunch of different things.”
— Kevin Scott (21:20)
- Quote: “Part of the joy of being a developer is you have that choice and you can play around with a bunch of different things.”
- Product-Driven Innovation: The most interesting startups focus less on differentiated infrastructure and more on deeply understanding and solving real problems.
- Tolerance for Experimentation: The AI ecosystem’s vibrancy comes from users’ willingness to try diverse solutions.
6. Predictions for the Coming Year (24:11)
- No More Excuses to Wait: Those delaying AI adoption due to capability or cost concerns will fall behind, as rapid improvements are expected.
- Quote: “Anyone who is using those as excuses to wait to get started are going to be super behind because everything’s going to get cheaper and everything’s going to get more capable every year.”
— Kevin Scott (24:13)
- Quote: “Anyone who is using those as excuses to wait to get started are going to be super behind because everything’s going to get cheaper and everything’s going to get more capable every year.”
- Agentic Web Maturity: Expect “asynchronous” agent use, where agents autonomously complete multi-step tasks out of a user’s sight, then deliver results when ready.
- Quote: “You’re going to start to get to the point where you’re able to go from this synchronous mode… to asynchronous.”
— Kevin Scott (25:38) - Future will be about delegating more ambitious, ongoing work to agents, representing a fundamental change in daily workflows.
- Quote: “You’re going to start to get to the point where you’re able to go from this synchronous mode… to asynchronous.”
Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments
-
On Permissionless Innovation:
"The thing that excites me most… is the extent to which you can go innovate and build things without having to seek someone’s permission."
— Kevin Scott (13:08) -
On Craft and Change:
"I would never in a million years tell anyone not to have strong opinions about their craft. Like, have them. Like it's great… But… have an open mind."
— Kevin Scott (19:53) -
On Progress and Optimism:
“What do you win by paying attention to some crank who's saying… everything’s going to stop?… The cost of betting on failure versus betting on optimism is… a real big difference.”
— Kevin Scott (25:13)
Timestamps for Important Segments
- Craft of Making & Strong Opinions: 00:10, 16:29–20:08
- From Scaling Laws to Agentic Web: 01:46–04:51
- Importance of Open Protocols (MCP/Agentic Web): 03:28–09:10
- Handling Security for Agents: 09:33–12:41
- Open vs. Closed AI Ecosystems: 12:41–15:38
- Diversity of AI Agents: 21:01–22:59
- Predictions for 2026 and Advice for Developers: 24:11–26:52
Conclusion
Kevin Scott paints a vision in which the “agentic web” is both a technical and cultural turning point for software development. By creating open, accessible protocols and championing permissionless innovation, he argues that the future will empower both makers and users to shape how AI and agents integrate into our world—while respecting the individual craft, diverse preferences, and the enduring joy of creation.
Recommended for:
- Anyone building with or interested in AI agents
- Developers curious about the future of programming
- Product leaders navigating the tension between open and controlled tech ecosystems