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AICPA Personal Financial Planning (PFP)
Andrea Millar, From Financial Expert to Trusted Guide
00:27:34
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign I'm Kari Sinnett, and this is your Personal Financial Planning podcast. What if the reason clients don't follow through on your advice isn't the plan, but the lack of purpose behind it? Today, we're exploring how life planning can unlock deeper client engagement, better decision making, and more consistent action by aligning financial recommendations with what truly matters most. Welcome to the American Institute of CPAs Personal financial planning Podcast. I'm Kerry Sinnett. As the leader of the PFS designation, the financial planning credential exclusively available to CPAs, my role is to keep you informed, educated, and connected to a premier community of thought leaders delivering trusted financial planning. We explore the full range of planning topics and the current events shaping your profession. If you're an advisor, a CPA financial planner, or simply want an inside look at today's topic of life planning, this podcast is for you. Our guest today is Andrea Millar. She is a nationally respected voice in financial life planning. She led the AICPA personal and financial planning division for over 15 years, shaping the profession's evolution and advocating for the role of CPA financial planners. Today, she brings that legacy forward on the front lines as a life planner and coach, helping clients and practitioners align money with meaning. Andrea was recently honored with the Personal Financial Planning Distinguished Service Award for her enduring impact on the profession. Andrea, welcome.
- [01:47]
B
Thanks, Carrie. It's good to be here with you, Andrea.
- [01:50]
A
This is such an interesting topic and many financial planners enter the profession to help people. But over time, the technical work tends to take the center stage. How does life planning help planners reconnect with their original why that kind of helping drive?
- [02:12]
B
Yeah. Well, first I just want to say life planning was coined, I think, by George Kender with the Kinder Institute of Life Planning. And he had been a tax professional, and I think he was a cpa, and then he was a financial planner. And he saw that the clients weren't taking his recommendations and he wanted to get into something deeper to understand what is their purpose, what is their why. And so I'm just going to give you his definition of life planning because he designed his whole life planning process for financial planners since he came from that world and wanting to get deeper with clients to understand what's the why behind it all. So that the money is just a means to an end, really. It's not the most important thing. It's just because of what it gives you in your life that matters. And if you can connect that with the clients, they're much more likely to do the financial planning recommendations because they can See that? But he coined it as life planning is a process that helps people align their financial lives with what matters most to them, their values, purpose, and deepest aspirations, so that money becomes a tool for living an authentic life. And he talks about that instead of leading with financial goals, it's leading with who are you? And what is the life that wants to live through you, and how can money support that? So I know that sounds lofty and ambitious, but that's the purpose of life planning and getting underneath. And I do agree with you. A lot of financial planners get into this because they want to help people, and it's the helping as a helping profession. And of course, a lot of financial planners love the technical side, too. And there's a lot of complexity to that. And that's what takes a lot of schooling and effort. And that's where people have their credentials. But bringing back to, you know, you can be in client meetings. I remember myself being in client meetings, or even being on the other side being the client. And people start getting into all that technical stuff and you're just glazing over. I've seen the eyes glaze over. I've been the one with the eyes glazing over. And if you get too techy, you can disconnect from what it's all about, and then you've lost them. And then they are just like this financial stuff. I'll get to it later. So I don't know if I answered your question, but that's what is life planning and why it matters.
- [04:42]
A
Andrea, thank you. You know what I am guilty of exactly that. I remember people coming in. I am excited to help them. I'm excited to really know who they are. But I am the most excited to, quote, fix it, you know, whatever their problem is at the moment. And I didn't always perfectly listen to who they are, what they care about, before jumping into some of that technical problem solving, which I enjoy, I can immediately tackle that and say, here's the answer. But probably the answer is not relevant until they really know that I know who they are and really understand the bigger aspirations and the bigger goals that the clients have. And it seems to me that clients, once I kind of figured that out a little bit better to stop, listen more at the beginning. Clients seem to act more decisively. When I finally do get to the financial advice, when they have clarity on what their life goals, it's clear that I understand it. So what are some signs that a client is maybe unclear and they haven't figured out their goals yet, and Also, how can a CPA financial planner gently shift the conversation with. Toward meaning and purpose for the client?
- [06:10]
B
This is all in context, right? So if you're a financial planner and you're not even talking about these things, then you might not have signals that it's unclear. So I would just say making sure you're clear. What is your client really wanting out of this life? Making sure you understand them, listening to them. I mean, there's nothing more than that. People want them to be listened to, understood, heard, feel the like they're a human and treated like a human. And so just giving the space to hear those things and understand what matters most to them. And what I do in practice is I, I have the registered life planner credential, then I have a bunch of coaching credentials because I wanted to go a lot deeper. And this is what I do purely in practice. And then there's other people who, they want to be financial planners, but they want to connect the meaning and understand this to what they're doing in financial planning. But they don't want this, oh, I gotta go get another credential and I gotta do this and I gotta do that. So the simplest thing is to just, I mean, it sounds so simple, but listening and, and posing a couple of questions. And I think the number one thing is letting go of ego, because I think people want to come with the answers because they want to help and they also want to pray, prove that. Look, you hired me and I know my stuff. Let me tell you what I know. So I think you just have to let go of ego. And in this circumstance, remember, the client is the expert in their own lives. You're not the expert in their lives. And it's so easy to also, even when it comes to their life, people can project or have preconceived notions about what they think somebody should do in life. And so I think, one, letting go of ego, two, letting go of preconceived notions and just being there, creating a space. Because there's nothing more important in this work than the space you create where people feel like they can trust you. They feel like they're being given space to talk and express, and they can share their deepest worries and their deepest aspirations, whether it has to do with financial planning or not. Because I have clients that come to me and they're like, what's the, the difference between therapy and coaching? And I'll explain the difference, but I say that's not up to you to need to worry about that. You come with everything. And I'm the one that has to know the line between those and what I do. Well, you want your clients to be able to just open up about anything, but if they come to you, and it's always the technical, financial, and you talking and the expert, I don't even know how you'd see the signals because you're not even asking them anything to know the signals. And so I think it's about you being the guide who makes sure you're having those conversations. And you can keep it really simple. You know, letting go of ego, let go of preconceived notions, acknowledge what your client is saying is important to them, what worries the most, and then if it makes sense, connect that to what that means for the financial planning, and you can keep it really simple, like what's most essential to you. If we were talking about your life, whether it's your own vitality, your, your relationships, your contributions through your work, or volunteering, you can chunk it down into those three key areas, or they always bubble up. And so even just giving them space to say, okay, if you could have your ideal in your relationships, what would it look like? What would that mean to you? So, and then just chunk it into those three just to get them talking. And if you're letting go of ego and not thinking, you need to find the answers to their life, you're just gonna listen and they're going to open up more because they feel they're in a space where they're being listened to, they're not being judged, they're just getting things out. And then you, as the financial planner can pick up, okay, well, what does that mean then for the financial plan and what we need to make sure happens and help them make sure that happens, run scenarios. I think another thing is when you're the financial plan and you're the expert, you want to help clients, and you end up being in a protection mode, like, oh, I want to make sure my client doesn't run out of money. And that's a real thing, because people are so worried they're going to run out of money, even the most wealthy. But instead, with this work, you've got to change hats and be the person who helps you, your client, live their best life. You want to help them thrive, and you kind of need to take the protect them with everything possible hat off, because we as humans are wired for survival, but you don't. You're not often fully alive and, you know, full of life and all of that when living that way. So I think you kind of have to shift to how can I help this person thrive and have them look back and be happy at what they saw of how they lived their life. Because often we don't have these conversations. You might be the only person they have it with for them to even reflect on it and think about it. And then it starts percolating and grows from there. So people think they have to have this exact process. But really once you get a person reflecting, they'll start thinking of things, you know, out driving. And all you need to do is plant a seed and make sure you're giving the space for it. And then some people will go deep in for clients, others won't be interested. They'll want just to know you got their financial planning and that's okay. I think you have to be where the client is.
- [11:57]
A
This is great. And you know, research shows that satisfaction in financial planning goes up as we start to use more of those soft skills. Well, life planning is sometimes viewed as a pretty advanced soft skill or even separate from technical planning. But recently Dr. Brian Portnoy said you can choose to be either primarily a mechanic, the technical side or just as you allude to a guide. And in our world, as it advances in AI, probably the better option is guide with all the technical know how. It sounds like you feel that that advanced soft skill of life planning actually enhances planning precision. Because before you really do the deep technical work, you're finding out exactly what the client cares about and not just your own personal biases. I want to protect as much as possible or I want to make sure maybe the client has greater information about their longevity, that it might be shorter in their family that adjusts their financial plan. Those soft questions are so vital for actually increasing precision in the financial planning. So Andrea, can you explain how doing discovery basically in a values based way, I think that's kind of what you're talking about, leads to better technical outcomes.
- [13:35]
B
How does that work as you're talking? I'm just thinking this is as inspired firing as and meaningful for the financial planner as it is the client. Because when you're their planner and you can see there's a difference in oh, I'm going to make sure the money lasts, it's invested well. We did the most tax efficient investing and we got the most money out of that that we could. Yeah, they got to go on their trips, they got to do this and that. But, but there's a difference when you go to a deeper level of knowing what is most important in having those intentional conversations and if you've gotten to that depth and then you're the person helping that person do that, it will make your work so much more rewarding, because the financial planning takes on more meaning. And I don't think it's ever about the money. It's about what the mummy does for the life and the loved ones and charities you want to contribute to, whatever it is. But on the client side, I know there's nothing like doing this for yourself to see the value. Like, it's just probably even your own financial plan. There's nothing like doing your own financial plan to sit in the shoes of clients and to know the value. So, I mean, I've seen the difference that this makes and what it does for people vastly more than what financials do. But in my own life, my financial planning, after I did the life planning and got really clear what I wanted and excited about it and was going on this trajectory and being much more intentional about how I lived and what I was trying to create, and every day moving in that direction, I got so much better with my own financial planning, did the things, looked at it, checked in on it, took actions that before I was just kind of like, I've got it invested, I have it over there, I think it's got a good allocation and I'm just going to ignore it. And then the other stuff will just come together. And so I think it actually makes it exciting to do the things I got so good with saving. Like never before I paid off anything that wasn't mortgage like never before. And just it was fun. It was fun to look, where am I spending money? Like I wanted my money spending to have meaning and not have wasteful stuff. Even if I had the money to waste, it doesn't feel good. And so it actually makes it more fun, like what am I doing and. And how. Where can I do something different? It makes you look at it more intentionally and see, I call it money leaks, where you have things just leaking all over the place because you're not paying attention.
- [16:25]
A
That is so true. When we dive deeply into discovery for the client's meaning, for what they care about, it actually becomes more meaningful for us in doing the planning because there we are partnering with our client to take those numbers and actually fulfill meaning for their life. And that is an amazing thing to do. All right, so there are some CPA financial planners right now who are intrigued. They're listening. But, Andrea, they're unsure how to start. What are some of those few practical first steps that they can explore with bringing the concepts and the ideas of life planning into their own existing process. Give us the doorway.
- [17:15]
B
Yes. Well, as I said before, I went all in. So if you're a person really interested in this, there's a lot out there. I'm a big fan. The longer that I'm around and know more and understand more about humanity and this life and human potential, the more I respect the registered life planner credential. So anyone who wants to go deeper, because that one's already connected to financial planning as a design for financial planners, that's a path. Because I remember when I worked for aicpa, I would ask a lot of PFS credential holders, what made you get the credential? And people would say competence and confidence. So I think a lot of people want that feeling like I know what I'm doing here instead of just spitballing something and. And do it. So if you're a person like a lot of CPAs and you want to go deeper in, that is a wonderful process to help people get to their vision and what matters most. And it was based in wisdom traditions originally, but now because science has caught up, it's also backed by neuroscience for people who like that. So it's phenomenal what, what that does. But if you are just starting and you just want to open the door, then I'm just going to be repetitive. It goes back to first is the space you're creating. You've got to let go of being the expert. Expert with all the answers. Give space to purposely give your client a chance to talk about what's on their mind, whether it's financial stuff or not. Because people in that seat are just thinking about their life. They're not just thinking, oh, let me just give you the stuff related to financial. If you have a good relationship, they'll give you. They'll go much wider and that could help you because they might not even realize the impact there. I'll just go back to say, let go of ego, let go of preconceived notions. Listen. There's a great acronym that Moira Summers talks about. Wait, why am I talking like listen? Because they will come to their answers and then just pose simple things. You could just start with something super simple. What's most important to you about your money? Just start there and if you follow the client thread and listen, tell me more anything else? Just let. Do whatever it is, follow the thread, hear what they last said and then just ask something more about that and it's amazing what you'll find. And then Asking questions as you go. That makes sense like well, what worries you most about that or what's what matters most about that and you'll get even more fleshed out. So you can just start there and, and then just let them know like this is a place for you to be able to share. Because we want to make sure that you're. That the financial planning we do aligns to what matters most to you in life. So we want to come back and visit this. Always feel like you can bring these things up in our meetings and make sure we're checking in that your financial plan is bringing to life what you intentionally want to create. And I would just say doing some stuff like that. Planting seeds is huge because once you do these little things they'll start thinking about it outside the meeting and like and come back and oh I was thinking about this and and at first they might think oh I don't know, I think it's what I have like but if you, if you just plant the seed it's amazing what people start to reflect on and some people might not and that's okay. One, it's right for them. They'll grab it again. Just be where your client is. There's nothing more important than just you being authentic. Like it's going to be weird if you bring something to your clients that you don't even feel comfortable with or don't even feel right about. That's just going to be awkward and weird for everybody. So don't do that. But just do what feels most natural and authentic because that's what builds trust. And then giving them the space, space to share and especially the non judgmental space. It doesn't matter what they say and trusting they're going to come to their answers that make these things happen and you can run a lot of scenarios. What I believe is there's tons of possibilities of how to make things work where humans can be kind of black and white. It has to be this way or that way. But actually there's tons of things in between and that's where the scenario planning to share them, how you can help them thrive instead of just surviving.
- [21:48]
A
Absolutely. I am going to remember the WAIT acronym WAIT And I'm going to ask myself why am I talking? And if you're listening right now and you're ready to integrate some of these concepts of life planning into your technical work, the AICPA ENGAGE conference might be a good place to start. So join us for hands on personal financial planning sessions. In depth technical knowledge and insightful Conversations like this one that can help you bring a deeper meaning into your client relationships without sacrificing precision in one session. For example, Mackie McNeil will explain why clients resist financial guidance and how brain science neuroscience unlocks the coaching approach that actually changes behavior. So if you want to register now, go to aicpaengaged.com and take the next step towards delivering more human centered planning. Andrea I have really enjoyed our time together. You've worked closely with planners going through life transitions themselves. What advice would you give to professionals maybe feeling stuck or unfulfilled in their work who sense their they are ready for a new chapter?
- [23:10]
B
I say take some action. And this stuff sounds so simple, but it's a lot harder when you're trying to figure it out. Like you're like what do you want? I don't know. So having a process you can go through to help get that going. So I would say find a coach that you like or at least get a book that you know there's tons of books out there. Now. I don't like to recommend certain books but because what I found in doing this work so many years is different people resonate with different things and so there's nothing more annoying than being recommended a book and you read it and it didn't resonate. So in the today's world you can find what you're looking for and start there. But I would highly recommend it was life changing for me and it's going to be really hard to do this kind of thing for clients if you haven't done it or reflected on it for yourself. And then you can even understand what it's like to be in the client's shoes. But there are a lot of coaches out there. There are a lot of coaches of the CPA profession who were CPAs and then became coaches and just finding who you resonate with and it can even just be am I on the right path that I want to be on? It can be really giving peace of mind. But a lot of people are going through big transition like retirement or something like that. What am I going to do? How am I going to let go of what I'm doing now? And. And people want to hold on to what they have now. They're more worried about losing what they have now than not getting what they want. And so you it's having to work through all that human stuff to get you where you want to be. But I would just highly recommend doing it for yourself. Whether it's reading articles, reading a book, hiring a coach because it's well worth it. It brings a lot of fulfillment, joy, meaning if that's what you want. I mean, maybe not everybody wants that. I don't know. But if you do, I highly recommend if I wish I had known about all of this stuff much earlier in life. But I also think that this kind of thing is when you're ready, willing, able, and eager because you want to dive in and be there and give it your all. And so do it when you're willing to do something different and you're willing for change.
- [25:21]
A
Great insight, Andrea. Thank you for sharing with our community of listeners. And if you're an advisor listening to this podcast and you want to deliver premier financial planning with confidence, consider exploring everything the AICPA PFP section has to offer@aicpa.orgpfp For 269 a year, AICPA members get access to a library of technical guidance, webcasts, planning tools, and expert insights like what we heard from Andrea today. We all designed to help you serve your clients at the highest level, and this one's near and dear to my heart. If you're a CPA with 3,000 hours of financial planning experience already, consider showing your expertise next to your name by obtaining the PFS credential@aicpa.org PFS this is our podcast together. If this episode helped you in your practice, we'd be grateful if you shared it with your professional community. With almost 600,000 downloads so far, the AICPA PFP podcast is helping to advance the profession one listener at a time. This has been Gary Sinnett for the AICPA Personal Financial Planning Division. Thanks for listening and until next time, keep earning trust through clarity, guiding with compassion, and delivering premier planning that elevates our profession.
- [26:53]
C
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