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AICPA Personal Financial Planning (PFP)
Are You Solving the Right Problem First? Ask Dr. Brian Portnoy
00:25:02
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. I'm Kari Sinnet, and this is your personal financial planning podcast. The most important conversation you have with your client today might have nothing to do with money. We spend years mastering the technical side of financial planning. Tax strategy, retirement projections, estate structures. And those skills matter deeply. But here's what the research is telling us. Clients are no longer looking for someone who can just run the numbers they want, someone who also truly understands them, someone who can help them figure out not just how to grow their wealth, but what that wealth is actually for. That's the territory we're stepping into today. Welcome to the American Institute of CPAs Personal financial planning Podcast. I'm Kari Sinnett. As the leader of the PFS designation, the financial planning credential exclusively available to CPAs, my role is to keep you informed, educated, and connected to a premier community of thought leaders delivering trusted financial planning. If you're an advisor, a CPA financial planner, or simply want an inside look at today's topic of funded contentment, this podcast is for you. My guest is Dr. Brian Portnoy, one of the world's leading thinkers on the psychology of money, author of the Geometry of Wealth and and the mind behind a concept that I think should be at the center of every financial planning conversation, funded contentment. Brian, welcome. Hi.
- [01:34]
B
Good to see you, Carrie.
- [01:35]
A
Brian, last time you left our listeners with this powerful idea. Start with contentment, then figure out how to fund it. But for a CPA financial planner who's been trained their whole career to lead with numbers, that's almost counterintuitive. So let's get practical. Let's say we want to embrace this. What does that first conversation actually look like? Walk us through the steps.
- [02:04]
B
Yeah, sure. So let me kind of level set or reiterate this idea of funded contentment. It's very simple but incredibly powerful. So funded contentment is the idea that true wealth is the ability to underwrite a life that's meaningful to you. However you define it, that is distinct from being rich, which is the accumulation of more. So you have a million bucks, you want two. You have 2 million bucks, you want four. We're just wired to want more. Funded contentment grounds us in a, I think, more meaningful conversation around what is enough and how does that relate to the life that we want to live? I don't know if it's counterintuitive to anybody in the financial advice business that you should care about what your clients want. I just think that the hard skills of financial advice and planning, investment, tax, estate, those are crutches Those are seen as things that you need to be very technically adept in, and therefore you should spend all your time that. And that the soft skills are the easy part. Oh, I'm a people person, and I would strongly argue that the opposite is true. So you're building a relationship with a client, and you want to talk about what's important to them, what they value. The term funded contentment, you could take it or leave it. At the end of the day, most financial advisors I know care what their clients want to achieve. Well, where do you start? Vision and values. You want to be able, in your own authentic voice, to structure a conversation around. What are the values at play for this individual, for the couple, for the family as a whole? And what is the vision of where they want to go? It's one thing to have a goal. Meaning, okay, I want to retire in age 65 with $3 million so that at a 4% withdrawal rate, I can have 120k in cash flow. Okay, the math takes about 30 seconds. It's not that complicated. But that goal isn't really a goal. It's a number with a date attached to it. The goal actually comes after the why. The goal is the what. There's a why that precedes the goal. And so, okay, why age 65, why two or three million dollars, what. Whatever the number is. And there you can crack the seal on a more revealing conversation, one on values. So you can ask very specific questions and a couple that might be evocative to the listeners, like, so, for example, if money weren't a constraint, what would you do more of or less of? Okay, it just opens a space to think about these things. When you felt most proud of a financial decision that you've made, or what was that about? Encourage people to feel positively about their financial decisions, because sometimes they. They don't. So that conversation about values and what's really important to people and grounding that in real life experience, not abstractions, is important. And then vision, you know, imagine 10 years from now, and you're genuinely at peace with your financial life. What does that look like? What's true? And on the flip side, not just talking about hope, but regret. What would you regret not doing financially? If you look back from age 75, 80, 85, what would that feel like or look like? These are very basic questions. They're not threatening. You don't need to be a therapist to ask them. You're just talking to somebody that you care about about what's important to them and how they see their Future Brian.
- [05:24]
A
I'm going to put my vulnerability on the table. I know how to get to a particular number. I don't always know how to get to a particular feeling, but I see that it's so important for the client. The client really, even though they're asking for a number for a date, like you're talking about what they want underneath that is to achieve that feeling, whether that's a feeling of freedom, of contentment, of I want to be able to spend more time with my grandkids, whatever it might be. Those are feelings. And so I love how you lay out these different questions so we can take those baby steps into understanding what is behind the numbers and painting a picture essentially of your future self. But what happens when the client can't do it or worse, paints a picture that's completely unrealistic? If money is no constraint, let me fly on private jets. What are the most common obstacles advisors hit when they try to guide clients towards this idea of funded contentment? And I'm really just going to compress that to being content, having enough. I like how you say that. And how do they push through those obstacles that they might hit to help the client?
- [06:46]
B
Let's admit something first. Some clients, maybe many clients, they want nothing to do with this. They're there for you to do their taxes, for help, retirement planning. You want $3 million in 20 years from now so that you can do whatever you want. And it's none of the person's business like the why or how you feel about it. And there's going to be some clients who don't want to go there and there's going to be some practitioners who don't want to go there. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I do think that it is increasingly difficult to compete and distinguish yourself in the current marketplace if you're just going to do run rate cash flow analysis and tax filings, because someone's going to say, well, why can't I just do this with AI? Why can't I just do this with a lower cost provider? And you're going to have a hard time sort of distinguishing yourself. So anyway, I just want to give people permission to actually not care. But if you actually care about your clients and you want them to do better, there is an opportunity always for empathy, candor and expertise. So we want to show up being willing to listen, to make someone feel seen and heard and understood. Empathy is not walking in somebody else's shoes. I, Carrie, don't know what your Life experience is. But chances are we've had similar emotional experiences in different things that we do. Happiness, grief, sadness, regret, joy. So I can become empathetic by taking your perspective, by listening to you better. And then on the back of that, hopefully be direct, be candid in my response as it relates to, okay, well, what are we trying to accomplish here? And then the expertise comes in, well, I know how to do cash flow planning, or I know how to structure this complicated goal or work with an estate that has a number of moving pieces. Whatever the case, there's countless different examples. So someone might show up and you're talking to them about their, their, their vision for who they want to be. And look, I mean, there's some ridiculous case where a couple without a lot of money says, well, if money weren't an object, I, I want to fly private everywhere. Well, if they're insisting that that's what you want to accomplish, well, that they're not going to be a good client, you're not going to work with them because you're never going to meet their expectations. But assuming that we're in, working in, in the world of, of reasonable, there's a big space to lean into empathy, candor, and expertise.
- [09:11]
A
And I like how you start out with the empathy and the candor around, well, let's see how realistic that is. And then finally the expertise in order to help make both of those things easier. And to you listening, let's have some candor here. The financial landscape is shifting, and so there's a real question whether or not you want to be ahead of it. Just as Brian pointed out, there is going to be substantial competition in the technical area. And so matching your technical expertise with other skills that complement it are going to be ideal. So here's a place that you might want to think about going to. That is the 2027 Pennsylvania PfP symposium. It's where strategy meets insight and expertise drives the future of what's happening in financial planning. Brian, here's something I've been just really chewing on is, is there a moment in this process where the advisor almost has to make the client a little bit uncomfortable? I really liked when you said earlier, look, if they're not interested, don't even go there. This might not be right for every client in every situation, but sometimes you feel like the client wants to go there, but maybe they're holding back. How do we get to what's truly real for them? How do we kind of break through? How do you know when you've gone too Deep or deep enough versus, let's say, too far.
- [10:47]
B
Let's be clear. This isn't therapy. I'm not a therapist. You're not a therapist. Advisors and CPAs aren't therapists. And there's laws against providing therapy if you're not qualified to do so. This is simply an exercise in human empathy and understanding what's. What's motivating people. And if you don't care, maybe you're in the wrong business. I don't know what to say. So the issue isn't making people uncomfortable, although they might become that way, because vulnerability can induce that. But I'll go back to a phrase I used a few moments ago. We want to make people feel seen, heard and understood. We live in an incredibly noisy and disconnected time. The data on loneliness and solitude are very disturbing. Even though we have never been more connected via technology, we've never actually felt more isolated from each other. And so in the most emotional element of someone's life, which is money, it's not relationships, it's not politics, it's not religion, it's not mortality. Study after study shows that money is the most emotional and difficult topic for all of us to navigate. If we, as advisors, coaches, guides, practitioners, can show up and for a moment, through some very basic elements of the right question, or just being present or not speaking and allowing someone to speak, not shutting down the room, but opening the room if we can make them feel seen, heard and understood. That 20 seconds of empathy is going to produce years of loyalty and referrals. Because it happens so rarely now when someone becomes uncomfortable, it actually can be sort of the checkered flag for victory because you've created a space for them to actually talk about something that's really important to them. And there is an emotional element. There's no such thing as non emotion. It would be like, you know, in the physical world, it would be like walking into space without gravity. I mean, maybe that exists somewhere in space. I'm not worried about that. But like, there's no non gravity in a room. There's no non emotion in our persons and in our relationship. So we can take the emotions seriously or not, but they're not going anywhere. So when we give people space to think about what's important to them, and because it's so rare that we ever listen to each other, you know, most conversation is competition that involves you saying something and me just waiting to say what I was going to say anyway. There's really not a lot of deep connection there. So if you actually can listen and create a space for them to respond. You're doing great work. My partner, Dr. Joy Leary, has this great line that a question is not an interrogation, it's an invitation. Think about whether the question you're asking of your client is an invitation to share as opposed to an interrogation where you're doing fact finding. Obviously you're going to do fact finding. This is a facts based business. There's data. But as it relates to this broader conversation about funding, contentment and advisors as guides, what are you inviting the client
- [13:57]
A
to share that kind of aligns with, I think something that is important as people who are listening go, okay, I am buying in. People are emotional. Money is the most important thing that emotion is tied to. But if our emotional ability is a muscle. I think you've said that in the past. Okay, I'm just going to lay the stereotype out. CPAs are often viewed as kind of Mr. Spock. Precise, analytical and often emotionally reserved is what comes to mind. And a lot of people value that stereotype as well, especially as we're doing the profession. But how do we carefully open that shell so that we can become good in this emotional empathy that is going to accelerate our practice, create loyalty with our clients every day. Give us a workout.
- [14:58]
B
Yeah, and it is a workout in a sense. So I mean, look, there's a prior question here. As a financial service provider practitioner, do you like people? Lots of people don't. People are annoying most of the time. Trust me, Gary, I'm annoying. Others are annoying. We're all a little bit annoying. So do you want to work with people? I have auto mechanics and accountants and dentists and others in my life who don't really want to deal with people. They want to exercise their craft. And I want my mechanic and my dentist and my accountant to do just that. I don't want to talk to them and they don't want to talk to me. So here I'm giving you permission. If you are an accountant that doesn't want to provide financial planning, let alone life financial life planning, don't do it. You don't have to go there. You can make a great living exercising your craft as a technical expert. If, however, you actually want to engage people in broader conversations about their well being, you including their financial well being, there's no escaping it. Remember, emotion is social gravity. There's no not emotional situation. We like to use the Spock analogy, but it's a little bit nonsensical. Emotion is everywhere. And to follow on a point that you made Our IQ is fixed. No one's getting smarter or dumber. Our EQ is not fixed, it's a skill. Yes, we're born with certain capabilities and traits and dispositions, but EQ is like your vertical leap or cooking. With a little bit of practice, you can be a little bit better. Doesn't mean you're going to be a Michelin star chef. Doesn't mean you're going to be Michael Jordan. But you can be a little bit better with a little bit of practice. And there's ways to do that. Becoming more self aware, understanding the nature of empathy, understanding, you know, sort of, you know, particular social skills in terms of active listening, question asking, leadership. Emotional intelligence is a kind of a superdome of things to think about. Obviously not for us to boil the ocean on that today, but if you want to go there, you can go there. And if you don't, then you shouldn't.
- [17:19]
A
I'm still trying to get my first star in cooking, but I, I really want to pursue this emotional empathy that is good for the people that I interact with. And so I love the idea of earning a star and kind of growing in that area. And there's, and there's probably CPA financial planners listening right now and maybe they're feeling the same way. Maybe they're inspired by everything we've talked about today.
- [17:44]
B
Can I give you one trick? Can I. Let me give everybody a trick.
- [17:47]
A
Yes, please.
- [17:48]
B
It's a hack. It's a trick in the best possible sense. And I quote, unquote, learned this a few years ago and it's an unbelievable unlock to better relationships. Say the following three words, Tell me more. Somebody shares something with you about what happened during the day, what they had for lunch, their greatest fears in life, the death of a loved one, the birth of a newborn, anything from the most trivial to the most profound. Listen to what they've said, take a half beat, pause and simply say, tell me more. Multiple things are going to happen. One is they're going to be shocked because it's so rare, Carrie, that we listen to each other, which we've already established. And so they're going to be shocked that you were listening and that you took a beat and offered them the opportunity to share more. Because they're sharing something with you that is in one way or another important. You know, sort of the quality of sandwich you had for lunch. It's a little bit of a different significance than an important relationship issue. But just practice it. Listen to what somebody says, pause and say, look them in the eye and say, oh, tell me more and see what happens. It's kind of almost uncomfortable because the other person is like, wow, I don't even know what to do with this space. So when we say EQ is a muscle to be built, it's little things like that that aren't hooks or we're not tricking people. If you want to show up and give a flip, then you should. And that involves listening and asking questions and creating space for people to express themselves.
- [19:37]
A
Asking that question that says, I am putting myself second because I want to hear what you have to say, what's going on in your world? And you're so right that, that honestly, in our everyday lives, that just doesn't happen. Okay, let's say I do that, Brian. Let's say I'm saying tell me more to people, but I'm struggling to do that at the right times with the right people. And I'm back in the office and it doesn't feel like anything is changing. Is there maybe there's one thing they might be telling themselves or something that is getting in the way. What's the most common obstacle that we can look out for or overcome when we're trying to increase our eq? Our, our empathy?
- [20:27]
B
The answer is easy. It's self awareness. We don't want to go there ourselves. So vulnerability is the source of courage. And courage is hard very seriously. One thing we know from the realm of emotional intelligence, just to level set for all the listeners, there's four dimensions. If you think of EQ as a CrossFit gym, there's four big stations. There's self awareness, self management, empathy, and social skills. And each of those has a bunch of dumbbells and bars and pulleys and stuff. So each of them is a pretty big sort of area of the gym where you can go work on things. The source of empathy is self awareness. The source of empathy is not caring more about others. It's actually caring more about yourself and developing your own emotional vocabulary about who you are, what's important to you. So one of the challenges in financial services and wealth management, in financial planning, is that we just think of ourselves in a good way as noble service providers. And we are. We're doing good work for good people and it's great. But sometimes we take ourselves out of the mix. I'm a servant leader, like, that's good. We can be much better if we come to terms with who we are. So when I started out or when we started out at the top and you said, well, how do you get started? I said vision and values. Well Carrie, what are your vision? What's your vision? What are your values? That self awareness, going through those exercises, building an emotional vocabulary to understand who you are is going to have a leverage or an amplifier effect on your ability to connect with others because it's going to give you context, it's going to give you vocabulary, it's going to give you a flow. So if you show up, this is all kind of interesting to you and you're like, hi, I don't know where to go. Look in the mirror. It's really not pleasant all the time. It involves vulnerability. However, if you want to be good at this, so to speak, if you want to build muscle, you got to break muscle. And the first muscles you break are the ones are the sinews that constitute your self awareness.
- [22:31]
A
Brian, right now on a little post it I'm writing the words vulnerability is the source of courage. That's going to be my quote that I have on there. And listeners, I encourage you to do the same. If you're driving in your car, don't write it down yet, but remember it. Maybe send yourself a voice message. And Brian, thank you so much for sharing with our community of listeners. So valuable. If you're an advisor out there who wants to deliver premier financial planning with confidence, consider exploring everything the AICPA PFP section has to offer@aicpa.orgpfp even if you're not a CPA, you can come and get an affiliate membership with the AICPA. And then for 269 a year, AICPA members get access to a library of technical guidance, webcasts, planning tools, expert insights. All of those are designed to help you serve your clients at the highest level. And if you are a CPA with 3,000 hours of financial planning experience already, consider showing your expertise next to your name by obtaining the PFS credential@aicpa.org PFS this is our podcast together. If this episode helped you in your practice, we'd be grateful if you shared it with your professional community. We're at almost, gosh, 600,000 downloads now, so thank you for that. The AICPAPFP podcast is helping to advance the entire profession one listener at a time. This has been Kerry Sinnett for the AICPA Personal Financial Planning Division. Thanks for listening. Until next time, Keep earning trust through clarity, guiding with compassion, and delivering premier planning that elevates our profession.
- [24:21]
C
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