Alan Watts Being in the Way – Ep. 35: Dreaming the World
Date: May 15, 2025
Host: Mark Watts (Be Here Now Network / Love Serve Remember Foundation)
Guest: Alan Watts (archival recording)
Theme: Exploring the nature of reality as divine play—how ancient wisdom, especially Hindu cosmology, conceives the universe as a dream or "Leela" (cosmic play), investigating seriousness, identity, illusion, and the interplay of opposites.
Overview
In this episode, Mark Watts presents a classic archival lecture by his father, Alan Watts, centering on the concept that the world as we experience it is fundamentally a divine dream—an ongoing act of cosmic play. Drawing primarily from Hindu philosophy and mythology, Alan Watts challenges the Western notion of seriousness in life, delving into the interplay between being and non-being, illusion and reality, and the purpose of living as akin to art or music: not to arrive at a destination, but to participate in the ongoing dance.
The episode invites listeners to question assumptions about obligation, seriousness, and identity. Alan threads illustrative stories, metaphors from music and stage, and memorable philosophical paradoxes to explore whether life is a drama to be played, a command to be taken seriously, or a magnificent illusion.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Radical Questioning of Seriousness
Timestamps: 03:49 – 07:40
- Watts opens with "four fundamental philosophical questions":
- Who started it?
- Are we going to make it?
- Where are we going to put it?
- Who’s going to clean up?
- The "fifth, perhaps more fundamental": Is it serious?
- Observes the Western assumption that “life is serious” and discusses the anxiety around death and obligation to live.
2. The Double Bind of Commandments
Timestamps: 07:40 – 16:40
- Discusses how commandments (e.g., "you must love me") create a paradox, capturing people in what Gregory Bateson called the "Double Bind."
- “You must love me. In other words, I command you to do something which will be acceptable only if you do it voluntarily.” (Alan Watts, 10:35)
- These binds complicate authentic feeling and behavior; trying to obey such paradoxical orders often defeats their purpose.
3. Life as Divine Play (Leela)
Timestamps: 16:40 – 28:00
- Introduces the Hindu cosmological view: the universe as "Leela," a play or sport of the Godhead, playing hide and seek with itself through every form of being.
- The “persona” (mask) concept in theater connects to identity, with “person” meaning mask, exposing the “game” of personality.
- “The universe is looked upon as the playfulness of the Godhead who is playing a game of hide and seek with himself.” (Alan Watts, 18:43)
4. Identity, Awakening, and the Taboo of Self-Realization
Timestamps: 28:00 – 31:49
- Explores the taboo in Western society against recognizing oneself as divine (Tat Tvam Asi—"you are that").
- While considered insanity in the West, such realization is celebrated in India.
- Notes the difference in conceptions of God: not a technical creator, but an effortless, spontaneous process.
5. The Metaphor of Music, Dance, and Play
Timestamps: 32:00 – 42:00
- Uses music and dance as metaphors: their purpose is not to reach a conclusion, but to experience the process.
- “If the point of music or of any musical composition were to arrive...the best conductors would be those who got there the fastest.” (Alan Watts, 34:36)
- Life, like music or dance, is about participation, immersion, and presence.
6. Nature, Survival, and Purpose
Timestamps: 42:00 – 45:30
- Critiques the survival-focused, efficiency-driven view of nature.
- Suggests nature is poetic, musical, and playful, not just functional.
- Articulates that living isn’t for survival’s sake—surviving and living are the same.
7. The Necessity of Drama and Negative Poles
Timestamps: 45:30 – 51:40
- For a play to be moving, a villain (or real tragedy) is needed—"seriousness" is part of the play, not its fundamental nature.
- Delves into the interplay of opposites: black and white, being and nonbeing, crest and trough—each needs the other to exist.
- “To be or not to be is not the question. To be and not to be are inseparable companions, just like Tweedledum and Tweedledee, who incidentally agreed to have a battle.” (Alan Watts, 48:15)
8. Initiation, Nonduality, and the Game of Life
Timestamps: 51:40 – 54:10
- Understanding the unity of opposites is “initiation”—the inside joke of existence.
- Those who truly believe in the absolute seriousness of life are the "most far out"; those who see through it are "far in."
- “The person you might call a square is the most far out person there is. Because he really believes that black might win, that white must win. He's completely bamboozled. He's altogether forgotten the secret.” (Alan Watts, 51:58)
- The very structure of games—balance of chance and skill, seriousness and play—mirrors the cosmos.
9. The Danger and Beauty of Awakening
Timestamps: 54:10 – 54:39
- Awakening (becoming "disenchanted" from the seriousness) carries risk but also immense liberation—a central theme in Buddhism ("Buddha" means "awakened").
- The cosmos is a magnificent, artful dream—a divine drama.
- Even in the very serious traditions, there is a wink underneath it all: Shiva dances destruction, but gestures “don’t be afraid—this is a big act.”
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- “If you were God, and…you knew everything, that you were completely transparent to yourself through and through, you would be bored.” (Alan Watts, 01:25)
- “You want the person who loves you to say that they love you in the same way as they exist. They didn't ask to exist. They can't help it.” (Alan Watts, 10:52)
- “The Indian Hindu theory of the cosmos is…that the universe is a play, a dramatic act, which they call Leela… the playfulness of the Godhead…” (Alan Watts, 18:43)
- “So in this sense, you see, we are all something that everything is doing. Every wave is the ocean waving, the whole ocean waving, announcing its presence.” (Alan Watts, 32:26)
- “Music is purposeless in the sense that it has no direction… if the point of music were to arrive… the best conductors would be those who got there the fastest.” (Alan Watts, 34:36)
- “To be or not to be is not the question. To be and not to be are inseparable companions, just like Tweedledum and Tweedledee…” (Alan Watts, 48:15)
- “A Buddha is one who has woken up and who knows: My goodness, it's all a dream. But what a magnificent dream.” (Alan Watts, 53:11)
- “The angels fly because they take themselves lightly, much more so than the Lord of the angels.” (quoting Chesterton, Alan Watts, 53:42)
- “Does it matter? Means, does it put on a good show? Does it amount to something? Is it a convincing illusion?” (Alan Watts, 53:23)
- *On Shiva: “In his nine of his arms he has bells and thunderbolts and clubs and knives. But one arm…means ‘don’t be afraid. This is a big act.’” (Alan Watts, 54:07)
Conclusion / Mark Watts’ Reflections
Timestamps: 54:39 – 55:40
- Mark Watts introduces the source of the talk, the “Ways of Liberation” series, and hints at upcoming episodes exploring similar and Taoist themes.
Segment Timestamps
- Philosophical setup and seriousness: 03:49 – 07:40
- Double bind, love/obligation paradox: 07:40 – 16:40
- Leela, cosmic play, masks and persona: 16:40 – 28:00
- Identity and taboo of self-realization: 28:00 – 31:49
- Music, dance, and purposelessness: 32:00 – 42:00
- Nature’s profusion and poetry: 42:00 – 45:30
- Drama, duality, and tragedy: 45:30 – 51:40
- Initiation and unity of opposites: 51:40 – 54:10
- Awakening, maya, and playfulness: 54:10 – 54:39
- Closing and episode notes: 54:39 – 55:40
Tone & Language
- Alan Watts’ delivery is characteristically playful, witty, and paradoxical, mixing poetic metaphors with intellectually challenging ideas. He uses vivid stories and humor to destabilize conventional assumptions and guide listeners toward a more liberated, lighter, and artistically engaged relationship with existence.
For Further Exploration
- Complete “Ways of Liberation” series at alanwatts.org
- Related upcoming podcasts on “Way Beyond Seeking” (Taoism)
- Mark encourages reflection: If life is play, what new freedom or insight does that offer you?
Summary prepared for listeners seeking a deep, clear view into Alan Watts’ dreamlike philosophy of life as cosmic play.