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Alien UFO Podcast
The Metaphysics of UFOs
00:56:32
This episode I'm talking to Jon Kendall about his book 'The Metaphysics of UFOs: Evidential Case Studies on UAPs, Paranormal Phenomena, and Spiritual Experiences'
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- [00:00]
Simon Bowne
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Jonathan Kendall
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Jonathan Kendall
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Jonathan Kendall
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Jonathan Kendall
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- [03:03]
Simon Bowne
This is the alien UFO podcast, episode 239 and I am your host Simon Bowne. And my book titled Aspects of Alien Abduction has been published. You can get it on paperback, audiobook or Kindle. It's on Amazon and you can also get the audiobook on Spotify. This week I'm talking to John Kendall about his book the Metaphysics of Evidential case studies on UAPs, paranormal phenomena and Spiritual Experiences. Jonathan Kendall is a medical doctor, board certified in internal medicine and nephrology. He is the author of Seeing the Messiah and the Metaphysics of UFOs. Books that examine extraordinary human experiences through the lens of science, history, philosophy and metaphysics. Hi Jonathan, thanks a lot for coming on the podcast.
- [03:59]
Jonathan Kendall
Thank you for having me, Simon. It's a pleasure.
- [04:01]
Simon Bowne
So we're going to be talking about your book. It's called the metaphysics of UFOs Evidential case studies on UAPs, paranormal phenomena and Spiritual Experiences. Before we get into that, how is it that came about that you would write this book? Have you always been interested in UFOs?
- [04:20]
Jonathan Kendall
Well, Simon, it's a very interesting story. I always have been since my childhood. I would, I remember writing a report on it in, in school when other other people were making reports on mundane topics of history and science. I chose UFOs. I don't know what my teacher thought about that, but I chose it anyway. So I've always been fascinated with, with UFO stories, with ghost stories, other kind of paranormal phenomena. And I was actually researching apparitions starting about 2020, just coincidentally being part about the time of the pandemic. And that led me into a kind of an ancillary issue to Apparitions with the Men in Black, which is of course of UFO lore. So I took this huge tangent into, into the Men in Black, which led to UFOs, abductions and other other kinds of aspects of the phenomenon. And yeah, I got to writing about that for a couple years before I even finished the apparitions book. So that's essentially how I came upon this. And it's, it was every bit as fascinating as I'd ever hoped it would be.
- [05:30]
Simon Bowne
So yeah, you mentioned Men in Black there and that's the first thing I wanted to talk about. Do you get the impression that they're paranormal or government agents or both?
- [05:42]
Jonathan Kendall
I think, I think it's both. Nick Redfern Jenny Randall's They've written a couple of really good books on, on this phenomenon. I think there are definitely cases where paranormal aspects will occur with these mibs, Men in Black. They'll show up to people's houses usually as a way to intimidate them. But UFO people that have seen UFOs, theaters basically. And sometimes what, what makes me lean towards there being a paranormal component to this, at least in some cases is before the witness to this UFOs had a chance to even say anything, these people will show up. At times they'll seem to have just these impossible props like they'll be driving antique classic cars and yet that appear brand new. So I don't even know if government funded agents would be able to get their hands on such things. Even down to the point where the new car smell that is, that is acquainted with new cars sometimes are, are that that aroma can be sensed around them. And then sometimes in the wake of these things the people have poltergeist effects, things like that, that just doesn't quite ring true of human flesh and blood visitors. On the other hand, we also know that even through FOIA documents, that's Freedom of Information act requests that have been made by some apologists that have attested to the fact that government agents have visited UFO witnesses. So I think there's a little bit of both going on.
- [07:28]
Simon Bowne
They do do some weird stuff. It's almost as though they're trying to present themselves as humans but they just don't quite get it right.
- [07:36]
Jonathan Kendall
No, that's exactly right. There's, there's a couple of cases where you have them going into restaurants and they order food and they get it like say at steak, but then they have no idea how to eat it and someone has to actually show them with a steak knife how to eat it, how to solid taken apart. And then there's a couple of cases where they seem to be drinking Jello. You know, they get that solid square of Jello and they'll actually try to drink it as if they don't know, as if they don't know that they've never done it before. I know in Point Pleasant, West Virginia, the Men in Black appearances there that I write about, there are, there's a case where someone, an MIB basically claims to be a journalist outside of Columbus, Ohio here in the states and he, he Brought this little Dictaphone or recording device with him. But the witnesses claim that it's as if he didn't know how to use it. Yeah, so it's. It's like they. They give themselves away in some subtle, subtle manner, either with them or the props that they bring with them or their behavior.
- [08:48]
Simon Bowne
Do you find they're still reported today or they just disappeared?
- [08:55]
Jonathan Kendall
I have not seen any modern reports of these. I wonder, though, if it's because you just don't have as many people writing on them like you. Like you have in the past, or at least I'm not familiar with any recent publications that talk about this. I suspect, as with abductions, I don't think we just. I think we just don't have as many authors writing books and become bestsellers. And it's not that these things aren't occurring. It's that you just don't have as many people writing about them. That would be my. My sense of the matter.
- [09:30]
Simon Bowne
And we'll be talking about alien abduction and stuff. But before we do, you have written in the book about hypnotic regression and how that can be a problem. Recovering memories. What have you found out there?
- [09:44]
Jonathan Kendall
So I started out in chapter four. There's a case in psychical research goes way back. There was a man named Ansel Bourne. A N S E L Born D O U R N E and he had all of these different paranormal experiences throughout his life. Became a preacher after he was apparently miraculously healed during a church congregation. Well, one day he woke up, and he was somebody else. Took on a different name, moved to a different city, took on a very different occupation. He ran a shop. And that went on for weeks and weeks. And suddenly this man woke up and he remembered, I'm Ansel Born. And he did not remember anything that had gone on from the time that he went into what. What we call a dissociative fugue state. And this is actually something that's well documented, the medical literature, although it seems to be very rare. And he was hypnotically regressed to try to figure out what happened to him. And he was able to put a lot of these pieces together. He had a lot of memories that proved to be true. And there were some. There were some discrepancies when they checked out the reality of these things. But a lot of what was recovered during that hypnotic regression turned out to be actual events. So what I take from that is hypnotic regression. Probably, despite some skepticism to the contrary, it is a valid way to obtain accurate memories during a period of missing time. Or probably in other situations as well. Yeah. I think the caution with it, especially as we move into the alien abduction phenomenon, once that becomes part of popular culture, if a person goes into a hypnotic regression session expecting or already suspecting that he or she may have undergone a. An alien abduction, that expectation might contaminate what occurs during the hypnotic regression. In other words, it might be a. What comes out of that session may be a mixture of fantasy and fact. And that's where you have to be careful.
- [12:08]
Simon Bowne
Yeah. And also, the hypnotherapist has to be sure not to lead them or suggest stuff.
- [12:13]
Jonathan Kendall
Absolutely.
- [12:14]
Simon Bowne
When I do it, I work with people occasionally who are investigating alien encounters, and I'm so careful to just use the most basic stuff where I might just ask them, okay, what happened next? And I keep my questions that basic, but they were. Was it Bud Hopkins would try and lead people to test how suggestible they were?
- [12:41]
Jonathan Kendall
Right. There was a skeptical book by Kevin Randall, who's a ufologist famous for studying crash retrievals. And he had a couple of. He and his co authors, they wrote a book called Abduct the Abduction Enigma. There's a very skeptical take on it. And they had some interesting pearls there where Dave Jacobs, Bud Hopkins, would send their subjects. They might have been well meaning in it. But saying, this is what you might encounter during our hypnotic session. Be advised, be cautious. This could be disturbing. But the problem is that could lead to contamination. You're already leading the witness towards a certain conclusion. And then if you're somebody that's undergone an anomalous experience and you seek out Bud Hopkins, Dave Jacobs, you're apparently already thinking that you may have been abducted. And that sets a certain. Sets the stage for expectations.
- [13:38]
Simon Bowne
When I was at college and I was studying it, one of the things I remember they said was hypnosis starts the moment the person decides to do the hypnosis. And that could be weeks before the session happens. Was there a thing. Where is it Alvin Lawson's imaginary abductees and he did an experiment there with hypnosis.
- [14:00]
Jonathan Kendall
Yes. Very interesting study. He. He did a control group where he took a bunch of subjects that never claimed to see a ufo, never claimed to have been abducted, hypnotized them and said what would ask them about. I think it was eight questions saying, tell me what would happen if you encountered a ufo. Tell me about. If you were led inside the ufo, what you're seeing. And he found a lot of common things were being reported amongst these, quote, imaginary abductees versus those that the narratives produced by those that had claimed to be abducted. And his argument was that this was a purely psychological phenomena that that study has been subjected to criticism. For instance, his imaginary abductees would see a wide variety of, of different, different entities. The abductors would. They might appear human, they might appear as the grays, they might appear ghostly or grotesque. I think there are about six different categories, whereas there was, it was more commonly humanoid amongst the, amongst the group that was actually claiming to have experienced a real abduction. And there were some other important differences as well. So the traumatic effects didn't affect the control group, but did the post traumatic effects did affect the people that actually claimed abduction and, and so forth. So yeah, there's, I don't think Alvin Lawson, I don't think he was able to reduce the whole abduction experience to a psychological phenomenon, but it was an
- [15:40]
Simon Bowne
interesting study and suggesting perhaps people only remember abduction events under hypnosis. It's just not true, isn't it?
- [15:50]
Jonathan Kendall
No, that's absolutely true. In fact, the majority of patients or subjects or abductees remember at least partially their experience, if not the whole thing. Hypnosis is usually used a supplement. And then some people claim that eventually they come to remember everything about their experience just without the aid of hypnosis. So yeah, that's, that's actually a very good point.
- [16:18]
Simon Bowne
But the problem is how much of what they are remembering is real. Because what I was taught is it may be 30% of what is remembered is not real, but it's also just like how our memory is when we're not hypnotized because it's not great anyway.
- [16:34]
Jonathan Kendall
Is it correct? Memory is reconstructive. We don't, we don't have our memories as such where it plays like a recording in our minds. It's constructive. We tend to conflate one aspect of our lives with another and, and so forth. I will say though very salient life changing events like these tend to be remembered fairly vividly. That doesn't mean that the recall is going to be 100% that these tend to be remembered very vividly. It's kind of like you remember the circumstances of when you were married, if you were ever married, or when your favorite, when your country wins the World cup or for me, whenever the Kentucky Wildcats won the NCAA championship. I remember those events where I was, who I was with very vividly. And I think that would, that would apply in this case as well. Although you do have the complicating matter of, of the missing time that commonly is associated with, with Abductions and that again, memory is frequently recalled, at least in fragments from that. And that's something to work with, I think. Another thing worth pointing out as well, in my research and in the. In this book Metaphysics of UFOs, I take a somewhat skeptical view. Not totally, but I admit that we have to be cautious with the narrative that is uncovered through hypnotic progression. However, that's not the. That's not the whole story because experiencers usually will remember some of their abduction memories through continuous recall. But also they'll remember. They're usually remember seeing the UFO and then the after effects, Men in black visitations, poltergeist phenomenon, enhanced psychic abilities. Things like that require an explanation. So even if we just totally take a skeptical view of what's recovered during the abduction, say the Betty and Barney Hill case, what put abductions on the map that occurred in 1961 in New Hampshire. Even if we take a skeptical view of everything that Benjamin Simon uncovered under hypnotic regression, you still have a. A very close encounter of, of Betty and Barney Hill. They were. They both remember seeing the ufo. Barney remember seeing occupants inside it. They both had all these really strange things that happened in the aftermath of that experience. Like mibs, poltergeist. Other members of the family would see things. One of my favorite stories was there was a cat that was outside and wanted to come in into the house from the porch and the sliding door just opened on its own. The cat walked in and the sliding door closed. A number of people saw the. Saw this phenomenal. And then you have to account for the missing time. They got home two hours late. So we may be skeptical of what Benjamin Simon uncovered. And in fact he took a skeptical view. He thought that what they were. Rightly or wrongly, he thought that what Betty and Barney Hill produced under hypnotic regression was fantasy. But they arrived home two hours late. So that missing time has to be accounted for with something. And I don't think sleep paralysis or dissociative fugue states that doesn't happen to two people at the same time. So there's a lot there that has to be accounted for besides the actual Hart remembered under hypnotic progression.
- [20:13]
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- [21:13]
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- [22:39]
Simon Bowne
And also was it the little bits of the car were highly polished and the compasses would behave really strange around those parts of the car.
- [22:49]
Jonathan Kendall
Yeah, so that was one of the more fascinating aspects of this phenomenon. You'd hold a compass over it and I believe I remember the dial would just spin around and around. Eventually that effect went away, but it really suggested that there were some magnetic anomalies that occurred on that car. And that lasted I Believe for maybe a week afterwards. Kathleen Martin, who was Betty Hill's niece, wrote a good book on somewhat recently, within the last 20 years, wrote a good book on, on her, on her aunt's abduction experience. And she was actually witness to a lot of this phenomenon, including the. The strange compass behavior.
- [23:29]
Simon Bowne
Yes, she was on my podcast a couple of times.
- [23:32]
Jonathan Kendall
Cool.
- [23:33]
Simon Bowne
She told me that there was a time when Betty was very old, she was living at Kathleen's house and they were caring for her and they had a baby monitor overnight. And Kathleen heard Betty say, oh, I never thought I'd see you again. And Kathleen said, I was too scared to get up and go and investigate. I just wonder what or who that was in Betty's bedroom.
- [23:59]
Jonathan Kendall
Wow, that's an awesome story. I would, I would expect she had a reunion apparition. Betty probably saw a deceased loved one and that's actually quite common.
- [24:12]
Simon Bowne
Yeah, there's deathbed visions, isn't it? That kind of thing.
- [24:16]
Jonathan Kendall
Yes. And this abduction experience, you see those stories in these cases, case after case, these after effects, these paranormal after effects seem to follow these experiencers. Sometimes people that have just seen a UFO and don't necessarily claim an abduction experience, but also the abductees, they'll have, sometimes they'll claim to, to have been healed during the experience. Sometimes it's like they've gotten a psychic charge. They may have been, they might have felt that they were psychic to begin with. And afterwards it's like they got supercharged. They. Their experience with the liminal just becomes all the more, all the more real to them. They'll have precognitive glimpses. That's, that's glimpses into the future. Sometimes it will occur spontaneously. They'll have other kinds of experiences like. Well, like seeing apparitions. That's actually quite common. Yeah. And it's positive or negative. Something impacts these people and I think it adds to the objective nature of what they experienced.
- [25:24]
Simon Bowne
And also those after effects are reported by people who have near death experiences. That makes you wonder why is the connection there?
- [25:32]
Jonathan Kendall
Yeah. I wrote an article to that effect, which is a companion article to the, to the book. It's on llewellyn.com where I talk about the, the, the similarities of near death experiences and alien abductions. Two things that you would think would not have anything in common at all. But they have all these after effects. And really the strange thing is at some point they are very positive after effects, not only with near death experiences, but most abductees claim that eventually after they get over the Initial trauma. They're actually happy to have had their experience. Not only do they have these psychic after effects, but they have positive life changes. It's almost as if they're, they're getting, shall I dare I say, born again like experiences. They're more compassionate, they're likely to give up self destructive behaviors. They might even change their occupation to one that helps people. They are more spiritual, they have less of fear of death. And that might be the single biggest surprise. And there are many such surprises. But that might be the single biggest surprise of this whole research for me.
- [26:45]
Simon Bowne
It points to something to do with consciousness, doesn't it? It's like some abductees talk about how it wasn't their physical body that was taken, it was their consciousness. It was like an out of body experience and a near death experience is an out of body experience. So there's almost like there's something they bring back when they re enter the body.
- [27:07]
Jonathan Kendall
Oh 100%. There's something having to do with conscious consciousness that defines this phenomenon and people abductees. It's interesting, there seems to be a dichotomy because a lot of abductees will seemingly be be taken and wake up somewhere else. It could even be miles away. Which suggests that something may have actually happened to their physical body. But then a number of them, probably the majority according to Ray Hernandez's recent free study, suggest that it is more of an out of body experience. I think they're tapping into what we may call, for lack of a better description, some spiritual realm. And it makes them much more sensitive to liminal phenomena. And I think that explains the after effects that they have, the psychic aspects at least, you know, it's, it's. And it's very similar to other kinds of experiences like mystical experiences, shamanic trans journeys even. I would even add another category like psychedelic experiences as well.
- [28:19]
Simon Bowne
What do you think of this theory, this idea? I think it was Jacques Vallee who might have said it first. This idea that this is a phenomenon that's been around for hundreds or thousands of years and that we interpret it according to what we know in that time period. So we might see them as elves or fairies, but now in a technological society we're seeing those aliens with spaceships.
- [28:45]
Jonathan Kendall
I think they're on the right track, I would say. I'm. And this is where we'll get in some trouble, Simon, with those that are passionate about the extraterrestrial hypothesis. But I think, I think ballet, he called it a control system, like a spiritual control system. Keel called Them ultra terrestrials. Whatever the case, I think this, this is an interdimensional phenomenon. They're coming from some reality parallel to ours. And that is in essence the view I lean towards as far as being the correct view.
- [29:21]
Simon Bowne
And also I wonder when people like years ago would see elves and now they see aliens. Is that the phenomenon deciding to display itself like that or is there something about our consciousness that's imprinting upon them that gives them that image?
- [29:37]
Jonathan Kendall
That's a great question. I think it's a little bit of both. I think that we are imprinting on this phenomenon itself. Some would argue that all paranormal phenomena, everything we've talked about, including religious visions, are all manifestations of our individual but also the collective consciousness. That we are in essence if when it comes to religion worshiping our own sense of, of unity with one another and that we're subconsciously producing these manifestations, I think that definitely plays a role. I've studied that to some degree. But I think that there's also non human intelligences out there as well. And I think sometimes it's difficult to tease out when we read a good case. Well, is this all our own human agency with the help of the subliminal mind or the higher self, or are we interacting with something other, some other kind of intelligence, some other agency? Yeah, it's difficult to tease out. My best guess would be that we co create this phenomena. We're tapping in, maybe the NH I create some kind of, if you will, paranormal wi fi and then some. Sometimes the reception is better with certain people and in certain areas like flap areas than others, you know. And I think that's, and I think that is definitely plays into it.
- [31:12]
Simon Bowne
I suppose also there could be several different races visiting the planet and they're at different levels, some are interdimensional, some of them are physical. Because we get reports of both of those things.
- [31:25]
Jonathan Kendall
It very well could be, I think for the purposes of parity, I think that whatever we make of the UFO phenomenon, it is a very physical phenomenon. We, we've been talking mostly about the spiritual thus far or the paranormal aspects of it. But you've also got situations where these craft will land, they'll leave depressions in the earth even after they're long gone. They'll leave traces. The elements or the chemical makeup of what's inside these depression areas is different from what's, what's growing outside of it. They'll affect vegetation, they'll affect human beings. Jacques Valet list in one of his forbidden science journals he says that there's over 900 cases of reports of people being harmed when in the vicinity of UFOs. I think that's mostly incidental. Incidental or inadvertent, I don't think it's necessarily in all cases, hostile action on the part of the UFOs, but it does leave an indelible mark on the environment and on people that witness these things as well. And then when you're, when people are in their cars, there's all these reports where the car will go dead. So that aspect of the phenomena has to be taken seriously as well as the paranormal aspect. People have more of a nuts and bolts view that the extraterrestrial hypothesis. Typically they'll want to throw out the high strangeness, the paranormal fallout, whereas people that think of it as more of a spiritual phenomenon want to play down the physical aspects of it. I think the reality is both of these are very well attested by the data. These aspects and whatever we conclude about them, we have to take into account both aspects.
- [33:19]
Simon Bowne
And another thing about the, the aliens and I talk about this quite often on the podcast, is the, the thing is that they're humanoids. They're just like us, with a head and two arms and two legs. And then they're able to tolerate Earth's atmosphere, the pressure, like the oxygen mix, the gas mix, the. Whether there's any diseases or viruses, and they seem to be fine with Earth's gravity. That doesn't make sense, does it? If they were supposed to have evolved on another planet.
- [33:48]
Jonathan Kendall
I think you're right. I think that definitely provides evidence of more of a interdimensional phenomenon that these, these hail from some other, some other plane of existence and they're able to shape shift almost because the grays, I guess, the insects, the reptilians that people see, they are different from us, but they, that there's also a lot in common. They, they share the symmetry that we do. They have two eyes. I think generally all those different species are poured to have two eyes facing the front on that part of the head, two arms, two legs, and like you say, humanoid and experience. And then the Nordics are basically just very beautiful, very handsome versions of human beings. They seem to be almost totally human looking. I think if extraterrestrial life exists, I think it's quite plausible that it does. Jack Cohen and Ian Stewart, they wrote a great book called Evolving the Alien, where they say that extraterrestrial life will evolve based on whatever resources are available to it. So, for instance, if there's another planet that has a Lot of ultraviolet light, way more than what we could tolerate. Then life, if it's conducive to evolving there into complex forms, will take that into account. And they say when you take all these factors together, whatever the extraterrestrial life is going to be, it's going to look much different from anything we could imagine. It's probably, it might even be incomprehensible to us. So I think that is further. That further makes me lean. That's an argument against the extraterrestrial hypothesis and more for a kind of a shape shifting interdimensional entity.
- [35:46]
Simon Bowne
Or perhaps what we see here is something that's been genetically engineered to operate on Earth and that's not. You know, the small grays are. Some people do describe them as robotic or worker bees, but then the tall ones seem to be coming here as well. I'm just confusing myself as I'm speaking.
- [36:05]
Jonathan Kendall
Sure, sure. Yeah. I think you could be dealing with AI. I've heard that theory as well. Or that these are essentially robots, more or less. That would also explain why they're able to apparently breathe our air and. And so forth. Yeah, I, I think when you talk about the genetics of it, if, if these are extraterrestrials, it kind of gets back to what we were talking about in the last segment. These are extraterrestrials. They would have had to evolve independently of us. Their systems would have to be DNA based. Their base pairs would have to presumably be the code for the same coat, what we call codons. Three base pairs have codons that code for amino acids. And they would have to use the same 20amino acids as us. Their genes would have to be very similar. The resulting cells, the organelles, would have to be very similar, because we have cell membranes that very. That function very, very specific ways. Ribosomes, nuclei, mitochondria. And as you keep going on down the lines all the way, when you get to embryogenesis, the chances that another species could have evolved all of this machinery independently of the life that has a complex life that has evolved here upon the Earth to the point where we could actually form hybrids with them, for instance, or we could be genetically compatible. The chances of that approach is zero. Very quickly. There's a reason Chevy trucks are known for their dependability. It's because they show up no matter the weather, push forward no matter the terrain, and deliver. That's why Chevrolet has earned more dependability awards for trucks than any other brand in 2025, according to J.D. power. Because in every Chevy truck, like every Chevy Driver dependability comes standard. Visit Chevy.com to learn more. Chevrolet received the highest total number of awards among all trucks in the J.D.
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Jonathan Kendall
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Jonathan Kendall
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- [38:16]
Alloy Health and Grainger Advertiser
brought to you by Alloy Health. On the Alien UFO podcast, you hear stories about mysteries that science is still trying to solve. But when it comes to menopause, you don't have to wait for answers. Almost half of women wait three or more years before finding relief from hot flashes, sleepless nights and brain fog. Some are told by their doctor that it's just normal. Alloy was built by women who have been through it all. It connects you with menopause, specialized doctors and proven treatments so you can get care in hours, not weeks. No more waiting for answers or feeling ignored. Join the 95% of women who tried Alloy and saw relief in the first two weeks. Head to myalloy.com and use the code Summer20. Your menopause specialized doctor will tailor your treatment to your exact needs. Plus you get unlimited messaging with your doctor. Head to my a l l o y.com and use code summer20 to get $20 off. When you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant, you keep production lines moving and quality on track because there is no room for slowdowns. With Grainger's vast selection of high quality motors, sensors, belts and hard to find parts, you can get what you need fast and all in one place. So nothing gets in the way of getting the job done. Call 1-800-GRAINGER clickranger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.
- [39:42]
Simon Bowne
And it's confusing because so many people report meeting these hybrids. Is it that transgenesis is a better way to describe them.
- [39:54]
Jonathan Kendall
So yeah, I know your guest from a recently downloaded podcast with Dr. Luck I believe. Dr. Andreas. Yeah, yeah, he. He seemed to kind of go down the same path that I I just did talking about how unlikely it would have been. But then he talks about transgenics and I. I just wonder about that. Could would be just a completely different genetic makeup. I mean there you'd have to almost have to build from the from the ground up. Right? I mean everything their genome, the g. The genome that's engineered to make it compatible with with human DNA I think would be very different from the parent species. I just wonder. I suppose a very highly advanced society could do that. Maybe you wonder kind of why they would Want to or why would they would need to if they had that level of transgenic ability?
- [40:56]
Simon Bowne
It's. Yeah, but then people report seeing these children that look half gray, and then over time, they see others that are very nearly human but not quite. And that's like a contradiction, isn't it? It's also an idea. I suppose we just don't know how advanced their technology might be. They might be able to do this.
- [41:19]
Jonathan Kendall
I've read a number of cases where people encounter these hybrids or hubrids within the context of abductions. Are you talking about even just walking around on the streets?
- [41:30]
Simon Bowne
No, I'm just talking during abductions when you know this, some people don't bring them over and they say this is your child or something.
- [41:38]
Jonathan Kendall
Right. It could be that that's symbolic, potentially. That's kind of the. That's kind of attack that John Mack took. A lot of his. Lot of his abductees would claim the same. Same kinds of things, that there was some kind of sexual aspect to it or hybridization aspect to it. He. He thought it was more symbolic of something that was occurring on a higher level of existence or a different vibratory level or a metaphysical level. That's a possibility. And then there's always the possibility of that being part of what we talked about at the beginning. Confabulation during hypnosis. I know Jacobs developed a very rich ecology. I think he had what, five or six different levels of the hybrids or hybrid species in one of his books. But a lot of his, maybe not all, but a lot of these recollections were made through hypnosis, if I'm not mistaken. Could it be that that was part of the confabulation, that was part of the fantasy?
- [42:43]
Simon Bowne
And we also have reports people say they're taken on board. Women have eggs taken, men have sperm taken. And then there's the reports from women of pregnancies that go missing. And I've talked to a number of women who've reported that. And one of them said they. They woke up in the morning, the baby was gone. There was no sign of a miscarriage, no blood or anything in the bed. And she saw the doctor. The doctor said, we're going to have to do a dnc. Is that right? Is it dnc?
- [43:13]
Jonathan Kendall
Yes.
- [43:14]
Simon Bowne
Dilation Cure Dutch and the doctor went to do it and then came back and said, we don't need to do it. It's already been done. But he was the doctor that confirmed she was pregnant. So he, for him, it's confusing, but she Said to me, I can't tell him it was the aliens, can I?
- [43:32]
Jonathan Kendall
Right, yeah. No, that certainly is a strange story. And I'm not. I'm not going to speak for any. Anybody's experience. Any woman that has gone through this. I know Bud Hopkins and then especially Jacobs talked to a number of that had that experience. I know missed abortions, especially if it occurs in the first trimester. Sometimes that can be. The female body can re. Resorb that in such a way where it's not noticeable, where it. The. The remains are not expunged in the way that you might expect. I actually cite an article where that occurs. I don't know if that explains it all or not. Simon, I'm certainly open to. To these other possibilities, and I certainly wouldn't speak for another woman's or lady's experience with this thing. Some of these. I know some of these reports that I've read, they claimed they weren't even sexually active at the time they found themselves pregnant, and they go in for an ultrasound, and then they're not. And then they happen to remember that they had one of these abduction experiences before that. It certainly is interesting. I take a provisionally skeptical view of that. That far be it for me to speak for any lady's experience. I don't want to. I don't want to go down that path.
- [44:50]
Simon Bowne
Now, we do see these guys, like in the 90s, like Bud Hopkins and John Mack and David Jacobs, working with people who have these experiences, but they seem to come to different conclusions of what's going on. Do you think that's down to the individuals doing the hypnotic sessions? And it's Perhaps like John McEl asks something and something will come up, maybe spiritual, and he'll be, oh, that's interesting. But David Jacobs gets that answer and he's like, oh, no, no, forget that. Let's move on from there. And so they go down different paths and have different conclusions.
- [45:27]
Jonathan Kendall
Yeah, no, I'm glad you brought that up. Investigator influences definitely seem to play a role in that. Bud Hopkins, David Jacobs took a extraterrestrial hypothesis view of the abduction phenomenon, and both eventually thought that this was a potentially a hybridization program. And this was scary. It was malevolent. And it's not surprising that most of their abductees agreed with them. This was malevolent. What is occurring, Mac, on the other hand, who had interest in Eastern mysticism, He. You read his 1994 book, and then his. The. The book he published later, Passport to the Cosmos, he talks about all these People having these spiritual experiences, like dual alien human identities. He would talk about reincarnation and. And then some of his. Some of his subjects would believe that they were reincarnated, and they would just. They would have all these very robust spiritual views of it. And you wonder, is this real or does this somehow reflect the investigator? I don't. I don't think it's coincidental that of those three major investigators, Mac is the one that had more of the spiritual views. And a lot of his subjects came to view it more positively, more spiritually in nature, and came to believe similar things that he does. Jacobs, on the other hand, I. I kind of wonder if he turned more positive experiences, spiritual experiences, into negative. He talks about one case where a lady thought that she had this protective guardian that would come and stay with her, I believe, at night, if memory serves. And he hypnotically regressed her, and he claimed. Well, she takes a much less romantic view of that now because it turned into an alien abduction. There was also a case from Jacobs where he had hypnotized somebody who recalls having seen in the Virgin Islands, having had what I call our reunion apparition. She woke up to see at the foot of the bed, someone in her family. I can't remember. I can't remember if it was a spouse or a mother or father or child, but just appeared transfigured as a sign saying, hey, I'm okay. I'm in the afterlife now. You don't need to worry about me. That. And whenever he hypnotized her and they talked about that experience, voila, that reunion apparition, that. That ghost, instead of it being a positive experience, it was a gray alien standing there. And so I think he turned a couple inadvertently. I don't think he had any malice or ill intent by any stretch of the imagination. But that shows you that investigator influences, I think, can have a role in this and what people perceive.
- [48:23]
Simon Bowne
So there's something in the book you talk about, of this idea that the Greys picking up abductees and subject them to painful physical exams seems a bit primitive for aliens who have such amazing technology.
- [48:40]
Jonathan Kendall
Yes. I think even if we were to be, say, transported to some inhabited planet, now, even with human technology, I think we obviously can't get there because we don't have the power to. To go astronomical distances. But I think even we wouldn't be that primitive. I think we could send out some kind of. Some kind of drone, maybe the size of a mosquito, that could take a skin sample off any one we chose, or maybe Got a. Got a blood sample. Be like a mosquito bite. Returns to us. I think the military probably has applications like this right now. We could find out all we want to about a person thinking about this a little bit more. I do wonder, you could argue this mind scan that Jacobs talks about. Maybe for that. Maybe for finding out how a human brain works. Say something that they have some kind of scanning ability, whether it's telepathic or some kind of device that would be akin to our PET scans or our functional MRIs. Maybe. Maybe it requires close proximity to abductees to run that, and maybe that's why they abduct people. Maybe such a thing can't be done from a distance. But. Yeah, but yeah, I think overall the process seems very primitive to me for it to really be extraterrestrial in nature. What I think it is, I think whatever the phenomenon is, it wants us to believe that it's extraterrestrial and that it's doing these things, maybe even having a hybridization program. And I think it's all theater, for whatever reason.
- [50:26]
Simon Bowne
Yeah, because in the book it says these crude medical procedures could be staged as some rite of passage.
- [50:35]
Jonathan Kendall
That's a possibility as well. And that brings us back to the psychic after effects. Is this some way to get us to tap in and you look back in the past, Simon, interestingly enough, who experiences the paranormal, who experiences the spiritual world where they'll see apparitions of deceased loved ones, or they're more likely to experience near death experiences. Someone that's had some kind of a trauma in the past, whether it's a physical trauma or other kinds, like sexual abuse, those kinds of things. So maybe, maybe this is some way that they're leading us into higher forms of evolution. And maybe the psychical after effects, not to mention the moral, positive, moral after effects that seem to affect so many of these people. Maybe that's the point of all this, and maybe. Maybe it is somehow a benevolent phenomenon after all.
- [51:28]
Simon Bowne
I wanted to talk to you about. Is it Bertrand Mayhurst? May Hust?
- [51:33]
Jonathan Kendall
Yes.
- [51:33]
Simon Bowne
French guy who did loads of research. But that was decades ago, wasn't it? Did he come up with stories people were reporting way before Second World War that sound like abduction tales?
- [51:46]
Jonathan Kendall
Yes, from about 1880 up through about World War II. So sometime in the 1940s, there were all these pulp magazines that came out, pop periodicals where there were science fiction and a lot of the things that you saw, like ego. Ego, Tim. So I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly, one of those fictional Stories mimicked what would later become your basic abduction narrative to a large degree. Even Thomas Bullard, Eddie Bullard, who probably the leading authority on abduction research. He claimed. He claims that most if not all of the abduction phenomenon was prefigured in antecedent science fiction. Now I'm still a little skeptical of that view. That would. That would show that that was an attempt to try to reduce it all to a more psychological phenomenon. I'm still skeptical of that though, Simon, because these are very obscure references, these pulps. I don't think Betty and Barney Hill were reading the pulp magazine. That these things appeared and some of them weren't even in. And the language of the experiencers that were having them. And another thing I think it's important to point to while we're on that. I find it interesting that so many people, at least up through the 1980s and Bullard really demonstrated this with great alacrity. They would have the same experience almost. It would be just the same narrative. They'd be taken usually to a spacecraft or maybe some kind of subterranean realm. There would be a light source or there would be light, but it's unclear where the light source would come. The. They'd be laid on a table that didn't have legs. It would either float or it'd be part of the ship. The objectee would. There would be an I like device come out of the ceiling and. And look at them. You'd have the mind scan. The apparent manipulation of producing fear or with a mere hand wave producing relief or even bliss or even sexual desire on the part of the abductee or great sexual arousal. I think Steve Aspen, he lists in his book out of Time dozens and dozens of these things. And it's. You could make an argument and it's even down to the same order. The same order occurs according to Bullard, at least in the. In the broad contours all the way up until at least the. The mid to late 1980s is as if these are subjective phenomena. How is it possible that. That the order of events and the events themselves are so similar, so eerily similar to one another? I think it's important to point out that based on more recent research, these. The order of it all seems to start to break down a little bit. But it's still intriguing nonetheless that all the way up into the mid-80s or so that the experience was so similar across hundreds of different cases.
- [55:12]
Alloy Health and Grainger Advertiser
This episode is brought to you by Alloy Health. On the Alien UFO podcast. You hear stories about mysteries that science is still. Still trying to solve. But when it comes to menopause, you don't have to wait for answers. Almost half of women wait three or more years before finding relief from hot flashes, sleepless nights and brain fog. Some are told by their doctor that it's just normal. Alloy was built by women who have been through it all. It connects you with menopause, specialized doctors and proven treatments so you can get care in hours, not weeks. No more waiting for answers or feeling ignored. Join the 95% of women who tried Alloy and saw relief in the first two weeks. Head to myalloy.com and use the code SUMMER20. Your menopause specialized doctor will tailor your treatment to your exact needs. Plus you get unlimited messaging with your doctor. Head to my A l l o y.com and use code summer20 to get $20 off. When you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant, you keep production lines moving and quality on track because there is no room for slowdowns. With Grainger's vast selection of high quality motors, sensors, belts and hard to find parts, you can get what you need fast and all in one place. So nothing gets in the way of getting the job done. Call 1-800-GRAINGER clickranger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.
- [56:39]
Simon Bowne
Yeah, it sort of suggests some kind of authenticity because back then, what. How would they fake it? If there were people all over the world sending mail to each other of, you know, and it was letters in those days and say, well, if you talk to an investigator, make sure you tell them this.
- [56:56]
Jonathan Kendall
No, that's exactly right. And in the book I talk about, I play devil's advocate. I say this is how it might have happened. You've got Betty and Barney Hill who are abducted in 1961. At later on Fuller writes the, writes the book the the interrupted journey in 1966. It's a bestseller. Then you've got Shermer who's an Arkansas police officer who's abducted in 67. 1973, you got the Pascagola, Mississippi case. You could argue that maybe they were aware of the phenomenon at that time. 1975, you got the UFO incident that comes out which was based on the Betty and Barney Hill abduction. You've got later on you've got Bud Hopkins book Missing time in the 1980s and and so forth. I play devil's advocate and try to piece together how, how all this might have played out. But again, it's. At the end of the day, I just can't accept that all these abductees happen to be watching all of these different programs. Yes, they were fairly well known. It was becoming more and more of a cultural phenomenon. But I just, I don't think in my gut at least that that explains it all. I think the skeptics have a somewhat decent case, but for me it's not a definitive one.
- [58:16]
Simon Bowne
And there's a criticism, I think in society that people report seeing grays because that's a well known image now. And so that's what people will see or they think they see. But that makes me think, well, also Chewbacca is a well known image. Why don't somebody say they saw Chewbacca?
- [58:35]
Jonathan Kendall
Yeah, hey, that's a fair point. Bet Hopkins, he, he points out, counter, he said, yeah, this might be, some of this might be prefigured in the, in the pulp magazines and the, that probably nobody has read. Probably not one abductee is read. And some of the science fiction movies that came out in America in the 1950s, early 1960s. Yep. However, there's, yeah, you're right, Star wars, that was hugely popular. You got Independence Day, that came out in 1996. And you've got ray guns and, and all these kinds of things that are not really. Gee, you don't see that in the abduction literature. So there's a lot of, a lot of science fiction that was not picked up. And I think that serves as a very nice counterpoint.
- [59:19]
Simon Bowne
I wanted to talk to you about sleep paralysis because there are some skeptics who say, oh, that explains it all. But it doesn't, does it?
- [59:29]
Jonathan Kendall
No, I don't think so at all. Sleep paralysis is a situation where the experiencer, usually you wake up, your back is against the bed, doesn't have to be, and you're literally in a half awake, half dreaming state. You can't move and you see strange imagery superimposed upon the room you're asleep in, usually the bedroom. And that's because you're, you're still. You've got these neurotransmitters in your brain. But while we sleep, it causes us to lose muscle tone. That's why you can be very active running or swimming in your dream and you don't act it out for the most part, you're staying still because of these neurotransmitters. And when you awake, those neurotransmitters are downgraded and you get other neurotransmitters in your brain that makes you be able to use your skeletal muscles again. Well, when you wake up in sleep paralysis, the brain still thinks you're in partial REM sleep. So those inhibitory neurotransmitters are still active. And that's why you can't, that's why you can't breathe deeply. You can't use your intercostal muscles as well around your ribs. You can't, you can't move because your skeletal muscles are still, still have decreased tone because of your current, the chemical situation that's going on in your body. And you're also seeing dream imagery. And it's a very visceral fear that these people experience. Up to 25% may experience at least one episode in their lives, maybe even more than 25%. That's your classic. A lot of people will see shadowy figures approaching their bed. Sometimes they'll actually get on their chest and it's as if, as if that's what's causing them not to be able to breathe. It's the classic demon setting on your chest, and that's commonly hallucinatory. I, I do wonder in some cases if that might be a liminal phenomenon where you could actually have contact with non human intelligences. We'll put that to the side here for the purpose of the, of this, of this discussion. Okay, so you have an experience like that. Alien abductions have become well known as part of culture. What you see during this episode of sleep paralysis is, let's say, a gray alien. Well, you go back to sleep, you wake up and you seek out an abduction researcher and they put, they hypnotize you. You go in with a certain level of expectations, and voila, you've got a alien abduction narrative, but brought about through hypnotic recall. That would explain, I think, a good number of cases. Now, I don't think it would explain the original phenomenon as well, because back in the 60s, it wasn't really part of our popular culture. Not a whole lot of people knew about alien abductions. But more importantly, people would experience these things as part of the awake state. And often they would be driving cars like Betty and Barney Hill or like the Casey County, Kentucky abduction case. Importantly, Simon, 10 to 20% of the caseload of abductions occur to multiple people at once. And two people cannot have the same hallucination at one time, at least not a subjective hallucination. And that's why sleep paralysis really cannot explain all episodes, and especially some of the older ones.
- [62:59]
Simon Bowne
And this sleep paralysis has been known for a long time, hasn't it? Because there's different countries have different kind of folklore around it.
- [63:07]
Jonathan Kendall
Yeah, 100%. The authority on that would be David Hufford. A book called the Terror that Comes in the Night and that was written decades ago.
- [63:16]
Simon Bowne
It's been great talking to you. The book's called the metaphysics of UFOs Evidential case studies on UAPs, paranormal phenomena and Spiritual Experiences. And can you tell everybody where they can get that?
- [63:30]
Jonathan Kendall
Yes, you can get it from my publisher at llewellyn worldwide, llewellyn.com and it's available on third party sellers like Amazon.com that would. Those would probably be your best bets.
- [63:42]
Simon Bowne
And do you have a website?
- [63:44]
Jonathan Kendall
Yes. Jonathan Kendall J O N A T H A N K E N D A L L. You'll be disappointed by the way, if you think you're going to get medical advice on that. This is all, this is all regarding my interest in the paranormal world. This, this website. And then you can follow me on X as well if you're so inclined at J Kendall J. Just the letter K E N D A L L M D. Fantastic.
- [64:15]
Simon Bowne
And thanks again for coming on.
- [64:17]
Jonathan Kendall
Simon. Thank you very much for having me. It's been an honor.
- [64:21]
Simon Bowne
And that was an interview with John Kendall about his book the Metaphysics of Evidential case studies on UAPs, paranormal phenomena and Spiritual Experiences. A great way to support the podcast is to sign up to Patreon, where you can get exclusive access to the extended version of this episode. Just go to patreon.com forward/alien UFO podcast. And if you enjoy this podcast, please leave a review and be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or via your favorite podcast app to make sure that you don't miss out on any episodes. And thanks for listening.
- [65:08]
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