← Alien UFO Podcast
Alien UFO Podcast
UFOs And Consciousness
00:59:42
This episode I am talking to JM DeBord about his book 'The Science of the Paranormal: The Truth Behind Telepathy, ESP, Reincarnation, and More Mysterious Phenomena'.
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- [00:00]
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Simon Baun
Hear that?
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JM Debord
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- [02:21]
Simon Baun
This is the alien UFO podcast episode 242 and I'm your host Simon Baun and my book titled Aspects of Alien Abduction is on Amazon and you can get it on paperback, audiobook or Kindle. This week I'm talking to JM Debord about UFOs and his book the Science of the Paranormal. The Truth Behind Telepathy, esp, reincarnation and more mysterious phenomena. Hi jm Thanks a lot for coming on the podcast.
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JM Debord
It's a pleasure to be here and to talk about a subject that's always fascinated me. Yeah, thanks for inviting me on.
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Simon Baun
Now, before, on the paranormal podcast we talked about your book which was called the Science of the Paranormal, the Truth Behind Telepathy, esp, Reincarnation and More Mysterious Phenomena. But now we're talking about UFOs. Do you see connections between all that other phenomena and UFOs?
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JM Debord
Yeah, you know, I had a chance to write about it in the book the Science of the Paranormal because I kept encountering overlap between the study of UFOs and the study of the paranormal. And what I started suspecting, I think would be the right word, is that the same motivation to cover up the reality of psychic and paranormal phenomena is also seems to be at play with the UFO phenomenon. You know, we've, we've had really good evidence going back at least 70 years since the Roswell crash. And if you go back even to the, you know, the early 1930s, the Magenta Crash in Italy, and then leading into World War II, the, you know, the attempts to develop this, you know, the quantum leap in technology, the Nazis were obviously working on this type of stuff. So it's, it's not just people seeing things in the sky. These are the highest levels of military and intelligence in nations that are at war with each other, that are, you know, like, it's almost like pretended like it didn't happen. So as I looked into the subject and found this correlation or this interesting overlap between them, I started suspecting that there have, there's been a discovery that's not being shared with the rest of us, which is that these things that people are experiencing as UFOs, very broad subject, right? You got the nuts and bolts side of it, you've got the contact side of it, you've got the orbs and manifestation side of it. I had a, started having a feeling that they, there might have been a discovery that these craft are intimately linked psychically to people on Earth and that there was a cover up of the information. Maybe for this reason that they don't, they and whoever they are, you know, the, the controllers, the gatekeepers of this information, they didn't, they didn't want it to get to be known publicly because it would reveal something about the human psyche that they want to keep under wraps. And that is basically that it is capable of much more than what we've been led to believe. And that there are some people who appear to be in telepathic contact with whatever this phenomenon really is. I should use the plural here, phenomena, because it does go across a range of various ways that people are experiencing this. But, you know, I was already, before I wrote the Science of the Paranormal, I was already a fan of Dr. Carl Jung. And he wrote a book called UFOs A Modern Myth of Things Seen in the Sky, I think is the subtitle. And he identified this back in the 1950s when he was writing about this as a psychic phenomenon. It's some kind of projection of consciousness. I mean, the idea, when you really dig through his work and the idea that you find at the heart of it is, is that at least in some cases, these things are manifesting because there are humans who are manifesting them there. The humans are the ones who are causing this to happen. It's, it's a projection of things that are within them that they are unable to express otherwise. And what Jung used was the example is that our religious institutions used to be the framework through which we understood paranormal phenomena. And once those institutions failed in that role, people started looking for, we'll call it, a new religion. And UFOs took off at that time in the 1950s as a subject of popular interest. And we've seen since then, in the 70 some years since then, that it has, at least in with some people and groups, turned into, you might call it, a substitute religion. Instead of waiting for the second coming of some messiah figure, they're waiting for the aliens to land and save us all. But what Jung found was, is that it just, in going even deeper than that, is that people are looking for authentic experience that used to be offered through religion. Experience of what he would call the numinous of the divine, of something that is beyond ordinary human physical reality and experience. They want that they will, they want contact, they want connection with something above. And when God was no longer available because people stopped believing in God, I. They substituted aliens and UFOs because they also come from above. He also identified something else that happened around that time, which was the, the great fear of nuclear annihilation and the fact that the countries could launch ballistic missiles across continents and destroy entire cities. And he said that he thought that part of the phenomena of UFOs was related to this cultural phenomena or worldwide phenomenon of this new type of weapon which also drops down from the sky. You know, the missile comes down from the sky, it blows up, everything changes. The UFO comes down to this out of the sky, makes Contact with humans on the ground, everything for them changes in a different sort of way than nuclear annihilation, of course. But he said that he thought that the roots of it were the same in the human psyche, the UFO phenomenon and also the nuclear annihilation phenomenon that both emerged around the same time. So at least in the popular culture and imagination. So, yeah, I did find a lot of overlap and correlation between those subjects. Simon and I think it's a fascinating subject to explore.
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Simon Baun
Do you think there's something about UFOs that could be teaching us that consciousness is not confined to the brain?
- [10:57]
JM Debord
Oh, yes. Yeah. That's another thing that has been repressed, I should say suppressed, because suppression comes from outside forces, repression from inside forces, and we have suppressed the knowledge of what the human psyche is really capable of. We've suppressed the knowledge that there is great scientific evidence that these phenomenon exist and that they have been studied in labs, the statistics have been run that shows that there's a very high probability that the data they captured through these experiments was valid and showed that there is a real phenomenon here. And it's not just the, you know, not just random chance. It's not just people making things up. I think that we have. We are on the verge of this being much more widely known than the sort of compartmentalized way that it's been treated to this point. When it happens in a way that's undeniable, people start, you know, like, I've. I've looked into the contact experiences of people like Dr. Steven Greer. He's well known in the UFO community. Controversial guy, but he's. You got to give him some credit. He has been grinding away at this for decades, and he's gotten access to a lot of inside information, him and people like him. One of the commonalities that I found about their stories is, is that they had some kind of an awakening experience to these deeper capabilities of mind and soul. And they have said that they think that it's tied with the UFO phenomenon and that it is teaching us that we have these deeper capabilities. Now we go from talking about Stephen Greer to talking about a group like Sky Sky Watcher, which was. They came out of Air Force Special Forces and were involved. The, the people who were involved in Sky Watcher. Some of them were involved in the crash retrieval programs which have now been confirmed to exist through congressional testimony. And they have been making contact with these, whatever it is that's appearing in the sky. They have people that they call psionic assets. They're basically, they're People who are psychics, but let's use a different word because that term psychic is so loaded that it can't really be used anymore. Kind of in the same way that ua, UAP is used instead of ufo. UFO became such a loaded term that if you want to be taken seriously, you can't say it. You have to use, know, change the language. And now people are maybe a little more open minded. But if you believe what Sky Watcher has been saying, and these are very serious people with serious funding, with agents working for them within this organization that are come, that come out of special forces, they call them tier one operators. I mean this, the very highest levels of military and intelligence. Very highly trained, highly capable people who've proven themselves in the field and who have to operate within the realm of reality because when you are part of a war making or intelligence operations you have to deal in reality because lives are at stake. They say that they are making contact with these entities, with the craft themselves or itself, and calling them down from the sky, from orbit or wherever they're coming from, maybe manifesting into our atmosphere from some other dimension. You know, we're not tracking them until they get here. What we know is, is that they have these psionic assets who go into something like a trance state. They make telepathic contact and they say the UFO or UAP is going to appear in the sky now and they've got all these cameras and sensors and radar and stuff going. And sure enough the thing appears in some cases they said that they've actually called these things down to the ground. So if people at that level of, of military, special forces, military in the US are claiming that they're having these real contact experiences and that they're using psionic assets for it, then what does it say about the reality of both of those phenomena, the paranormal psychic side and the UAP alien contact side? It says that they're very closely interrelated with each other. And to answer your question, that yes, it is showing that we have psychic capabilities that are underutilized. For one, most people don't even know that this stuff is real. And two, is maybe there is something that's showing us what's possible so that it will capture our imagination and get more people working at it. And if you read the UFO subreddit at subreddits@Reddit.com read through the commentary and how people talk about this subject and you will see people who say, you know, I didn't think any of this stuff was real. I started exploring it for myself, let's say they're doing like the CE5 protocol, which is a protocol that Steven Greer developed for using meditation to make contact with. We'll just call them aliens. And you'll find people in those discussions who've said, I did it too. I was curious and I learned the protocol and I tried it out and I had the experience. And what this changes for people is it goes from belief to knowing.
- [17:46]
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- [18:17]
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- [18:47]
JM Debord
Something that Dr. Jung talked about when he was asked whether he believed in God. He said, I don't believe. I know belief is a slippery slope, but I know through my own experience and now it doesn't have to be. It's not, it's no longer in the realm of belief. For me, it's settled. I. And so I think that the same thing is happening with people who go from belief to knowing. They'll say, yes, I believe in aliens. I believe the Earth's being visited. I believe in, you know, UFOs. And I'm, you know, the natural question then is, well, what exactly do you believe in and why is it belief instead of knowing? And when you dig through that, you find that, well, you know, the UFO hasn't landed in my front yard, so I don't know for sure if it's real. I just know that you know, or I just know that there's other people out there who believe it's real. So I will too. But it changes when you have some kind of experience, whether it's with the paranormal. Most people will say they don't really know whether it's real, but the people who've had the experiences for themselves will say that they don't just believe that it's real, they know from personal experience. And once that happens, it changes everything. And so I think that there are people who are finding this out and it makes them wonder what else they can do. If you can train your mind through meditation to have telepathic contact or even physical contact with something that comes down out of the sky, then what else could you possibly do, even if you haven't had that experience personally, which I haven't. Not to the extent of like a CE5 contact experience, but there are enough people who say that they've had the experience who are highly credentialed and very believable that I would say that it's shifted my thought on the subject to make me much more open minded about it and even curious to see how far I could take it. So if I'm doing that, how many other people out there are doing it and how far are they going with it? I think there's a lot more going on than what we're led to believe or the, what we hear. Unless you know who these people are. Ray Hernandez, for example, a doctor who was involved in the CE5 protocols back in the day. They were going out into the desert to have contact experiences and do the meditations and see what would happen. And he describes experiences that he had that were undoubtedly real experiences that happened within his own home and happened to other people who were there to witness it. You know, I, I, I look at that and I go, well, here you have somebody who is talking about something that puts his career in jeopardy as a medical doctor. Stephen Greer was the same way. You know, he, it was by talking about this stuff, it gets you ostracized from high level professions like that. They think that you're cuckoo. And so you get frozen out. You won't, you know, get hired for a job, you won't get the promotion, you won't get invited to the after work party because people now look at you askance and say, well, you know, we don't want them around because they believe in this crazy stuff. So the motivation to not talk about this stuff with all the social stigma around it is very high. And you really have to ask yourself, when you have people who really have something to lose by talking about this, why do they do it anyway? And it's that, you know, the inevitable, the, the logical way of looking at it is, is that they experience something that was so powerful and that they believe so strongly needs to be more widely known that they are willing to risk their careers for it. So, yes, I mean, I think there is definitely a connection, and I think that it is showing that the human mind consciousness is much greater than the way that we typically view it.
- [23:33]
Simon Baun
I suppose if it's like, I'll use the word psychic. There's the psychic spies, isn't there? They were doing remote viewing, and I'm sure I heard that they tried to remote view Roswell or Area 51. Do you feel that remote viewing, that kind of thing can provide reliable information?
- [23:54]
JM Debord
I think if the remote viewer is tasked correctly and has a lot of experience and a proven track record, then I think that you can trust what they've, you know, what they've experienced, what they report about the experience. There's a psychic spy. One. His. His name is McMonagle. Joe McMonagle was. Now he. First thing you have to know about Joe is that he was the army's art. He was a psychic spy for army intelligence. He was trained in remote viewing. During the early days of the program. He was awarded the legion of merit for his intelligence gathering using psychic means, remote viewing and out of body, basically experience. I believe in the citation for the legion of merit, they. They cited 180 different times that he produced intelligence that was spectacular. And it's. Some of this stuff has been declassified and we know it was. He was the remote viewer mentioned in some of the declassified files, mostly that have come out of the CIA. But if you look into Joe and some of the other things that he did as a remote viewer, you find that he had contact.
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Simon Baun
He.
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JM Debord
He remote viewed things on other planets that he says shows that there is alien life or at least was one of the most interesting things he did. Now remember, when you're a remote viewer, you are given a string of numbers that you don't know what they represent. But the task, the person who's giving the task assigns these numbers to what the task is. And it was view Mars, 1 million BC. So not only is he sending his mind or able to pull information into his mind about the planet Mars, it also goes through time to a million years ago. And I realize if people don't, they might be listening to this and immediately dismissing it as a bunch of crazy stuff because there's no way you can view back in time a million years or a year, you know, like. But go with me here for a moment. Joe McMonagle, Legion of Merit, longtime remote viewer. Many, many operational successes that have been documented and people who have Vouched for him, have come out of the woodwork by the dozens. So he follows the task. Okay, I'm supposed to remote view whatever this is that is expressed in this string of numbers. He does not. In other words, they didn't say, go remote view Mars from 1 million BC what they said was, focus on these numbers and tell us what you see and experience using your remote viewing skills. So he did that, and he said that he viewed, remote viewed a dying civilization on Mars. Their environment had been through some sort of catastrophe. They had sent out spaceships to see if there was some other place where their civilization could move to other planets in the solar system, presumably, and that he made mental contact with someone who was like an elder of their civilization, who shared information with him and that he was actually aware, like they were aware of him. Remote viewing 1 million years into the past and a planet away from Earth. Somehow they knew he was there and they were able to communicate with him directly to tell their story. He said he saw these things that were these monoliths, mega structures that have now been, you know, the pyramid on Mars. Joe has basically taken a map of Mars and said, x marks the spot. If you want to find the archaeological remains, the things that I saw while I was remote viewing, you can go here and look. And sure enough, people have looked at the photos of Mars. And, you know, it's near where the face on Mars is, which some people say is just an illusion of shadow and light and stuff. But in that area, there are also these structures that sure look like pyramids and that. He says that underneath there is the remains, these underground cities that the Martians built to get away from the environmental cataclysm that was going on on the surface. So you have Joe McMonagle, who has said that he had used remote viewing to show that there was once an alien civilization on Mars. And then we have Ingo Swann, who was another famous remote viewer. He was actually the first psychic used in the program when it was in its experimental phase, and then when it went operational. He was the primary psychic who was used early on, and then he became a trainer for people like Joe McMonagle and others. He developed the protocols of remote viewing and taught it to the first generation of remote viewers. He said that he was given a task once of viewing the dark side of the moon, and again, same protocol. You don't know. There's nothing to bias you when you start a remote viewing session because you don't know what you've been tasked to view. You're just given a string of numbers. And so that same happens to, you know, Ingo. He uses his remote viewing skills and starts seeing the backside of the moon. And he says that there are structures, there are, there is a civilization there, there are aliens, what we would call aliens. And he said that they weren't particularly friendly in the same sort of way that the Martians picked up on Joe McMonagle viewing them. The moon based alien life forms were aware of Ingo when he popped into the scene and started looking around and that they, they basically ran him off because they didn't want them there. Which is a story that's also been repeated by some of the Apollo astronauts. There's a lot of, we'll just call it apocryphal accounts out there that the. We didn't return to the moon for all those years and we still haven't landed again on the moon since the original, you know, moon landings in the 1970s. Well, the original one in 69. And then they went back again and again. Edgar Mitchell had his experience, which is a whole nother story, but one of the astronauts who walked on the moon said that he had a mystical experience while coming back in the capsule from the moon to the Earth. Contact with something that appears to be some sort of universal benevolent consciousness. But back to remote viewing, Ingo Swan said that he's also had the same experience of seeing that there are alien life forms and that they are much closer to Earth than what we've been led to believe. So two of the most famous remote viewers have both said unequivocally that yes, remote viewing has shown them that there are these alien civilizations. One on Mars. Well, at least it was there. And that there probably still is one on the dark side of the moon. So very interesting subject to get into and also very obscure. You have to really dig deep into the books that they wrote and interviews that they gave to run across this information. But it's easily, anyone can easily find it. If you put like Joe McMonagle remote viewing Mars, you can. I've. I've watched the YouTube video of him at a conference presenting on this subject and it's, it's really fascinating to hear him tell the story himself.
- [33:01]
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- [33:01]
JM Debord
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JM Debord
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JM Debord
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- [34:01]
Simon Baun
And I wanted to ask you about dreams. I wonder if sometimes, I don't know if you call it remote viewing, but we might do stuff like that in our dreams. But the question is, do you feel that the occupants of UFOs can contact us in dreams?
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JM Debord
Well, it would presuppose that there is the ability for anything outside of ourselves to be able to enter into or influence our dreams. And I can say that the answer is yes. There are people that I know who have gone very deep with shamanic dreaming. These are techniques that are taught for you to become aware of the fact that you're dreaming while you're dreaming, which is popularly known as lucid dreaming, and then to follow protocols for you to develop the skill of being able to stabilize the dream and then be able to direct it wherever you want it to go. From conversations with those people and from having read books from others and seen interviews and such. They say that they are in regular contact in their dreams with things that they believe do not originate within themselves. So it could be religious figures, spiritual and holy figures, mentors who've passed on, people who taught them these rare skills. There was a guy named John Chang who was in a documentary called Ring of Fire because he could. He was basically like a chi master and he could do healing and he could do all kinds of crazy things. And he once demonstrated it for a film crew. And then he said all night long in his dreams, his old master came to him and berated him for demonstrating their secret arts publicly. And then he withdrew after that. They never heard from him again. Like he disappeared into the Indonesian jungle or wherever he was, Malaysia or Indonesia or someplace like that. He withdrew from public view after that. Now we're talking about people who spend 10, 20, 30 years you with a very disciplined approach to developing their abilities. And so it falls far outside of what most people in the west know are, is possible because we don't have much exposure to people who give that kind of time and dedication to become the Olympic athletes of psychic ability. And so what I know from having researched and talked with some of these, some, they're like my friend Steve Rogat, we've gone extensively talked about this on my YouTube channel, where he's talked about the experiences that he's had with other people, other dreamers and other things making contact with him in his dreams. So if that's possible, then I think it's entirely possible that there could be contact coming from outside sources that we would describe as being alien. Now, I haven't had personal experience of that. You don't find a lot of it in the research literature, but in the dream literature. Oh, yes. You get a lot of people who have wild experiences of what you might call alien abduction or alien contact. I don't like the word abduction, but that seems to be what some people experience, being taken against their will. Others who are perfectly happy to go along with these visits and go wherever they want. The. When I say they, I mean the aliens. But it gets into a gray area that can make you wonder what's really happening to these people, because the dream state there. People have reported other types of experiences like that in the dream state, but they were not having experiences with aliens. They were having experiences with biblical spiritual figures and others. I mean, I just say biblical. They're. You know, if you go to India and talk to people who are familiar with their scriptures, they'll in, in. In their pantheon. You know, they'll say that what visited them was a holy figure or godlike figure from their religion. Then you go to the west and they'll say that they are. That it's biblical figures. And then you have others who say that it was witches, warlocks, demons, succubi, shadow man, which doesn't really count as alien, but paranormal.
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Simon Baun
And also some people report deceased loved ones coming to see them in dreams.
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JM Debord
Yes. Yeah. Much more common than what most people would know. So it goes back to your original question. Can some, you know, alien. Could aliens come into someone's dreams? Well, we have a long, long track record of other things, like, you know, visitations from loved ones who've visited, you know, in dreams. It's. It's much more commonly reported than most people know. But it. There's been a lot of stigma surrounding this. So there are people who don't talk about it when they have these experiences. But I think that if it's possible for that to happen, then it's definitely possible for presuming that there are alien intelligences out there that have any interest in human beings for them to also to come into dreams. People who are experiencers will say that this is their first introduction through dreams to what then became a wider experience of phenomena like then having contact experiences when they're fully awake and conscious. But it introduces them or kind of puts their feet in the water by first having contact in their dreams. And when I, you know, I'm a dream interpreter and I've written a lot of books about the subject and I have a conventional approach to dream interpretation kind of follows the Jungian psychology approach, you know, depth psychology. And one of the things that I've, you know, noticed about the dreams from these experiences is that at least some of the dreams fall outside of the conventional sort of format for these dreams. Like, you know, there's not so much like a build up and a narrative and a conclusion. It's that the person will say, I was having an ordinary dream, just doing my thing. Nothing that different than, you know, nothing that I could identify that was different than just my usual sort of dreaming. And then all of a sudden, boom, there it is. Something has entered into my dream and it feels like it doesn't belong there. It feels like it is entered into, like it's like you're watching a television program, the screen goes blank and all of a sudden some other program is now broadcasting on that channel. And they go, well, you know, now for something completely different. What? No, why was I having an ordinary dream? And then all of a sudden I'm having a contact experience in my dream. This has happened with people who've had the visitation from deceased loved ones. It's happened with people who, like my friend Steve, the shaman, who says that he'll be just having an ordinary dream. And all of a sudden it changes. And he's. He knows the landscape well enough now to recognize what's going on. And then it also happens to people who've had the alien contact experience. If there is a narrative or story surrounding alien contact in a dream, a dream with that theme, then I look at it differently because I. Dreams can just as easily pick up on these themes and turned them into ordinary dreams. But they're using aliens as the. One of the symbols in the story. And if you can, if you learn how to do dream interpretation and you can decode such a dream through its symbolism and its narrative story, and you can see that the alien or the UFO or Something like that is being used as sort of like a set piece or as like a character in a story. Then to me that's more of an ordinary dream. That's not a contact experience necessarily, but when you have the, when somebody comes and explains a dream where they like, yeah, I was having an ordinary dream and then just all of a sudden, boom, there were the aliens. And I go, ah, okay. There is something different about that experience. But again, we have to split another hair because there are a lot of people who've woken up usually in the middle of the night and they, they think that they're awake, they've just come out of a dream, they look around the room and they see the aliens or they're floating off the ground and taken into some kind of craft and have these experiences. And then of course they wake up in the morning and they're in their bed again like, well, what in the world happened? So it's coming to them through a dream experience. But they would swear that they're having some kind of a contact experience. And there are. Sometimes I look at that and I go, I think that you're just having a really powerful dream. You're maybe having an out of body experience, which is, happens every night as we're dreaming. I mean, just by definition, sleep is an out of body or dreaming is an out of body experience. Because you, you, you're not have, you're, you're, you see yourself in a landscape and let's say that you're running around. Well, your body isn't actually running, it's still, it's asleep and it's in bed and it's perfectly still. So you're going into a dream and you're having an experience that seems like ordinary reality. I look at that sometimes and I go, ah, boy, it sure looks like an ordinary, you know, sort of dream experience, although with an extraordinary theme to it. And then there are other times when I've looked into these cases, talked with people personally about what they experienced and it, you know, it makes me wonder whether or not the sort of alien imagery is being used as a sort of wrapper around an experience that people have had and reported going back as far as recorded history, basically of having these out of body experiences and visitations from spiritual and holy figures, demigods, gods, you know, things from their cultural and religious pantheon. And it makes me wonder if there isn't something that's running at the baseline of that experience. It's an experience, you know, it's. The dream is an, is an Experience of consciousness in an altered state. It is by definition out of body. But you can also go deeper out of body when you're in the delta stage of sleep, which briefly is the lowest brainwave activity phase or stage of sleep. Delta sleep used to be thought of as dreamless. And people who are woken up from delta stage sleep often report that they were way, way under, like deeply unconscious. But they will also say that they were experiencing something. They, they often have hard time remembering it, but they were experiencing something in delta stage. So it tells us that people are dreaming during this deepest stage of sleep. And I kind of made a, when I ran across that information, I made a footnote in my mind. And I've now had two sources that have said that they think during delta stage is when people have out of body experiences like true out of body. Like they are. No, they're, they're, their consciousness is able to view their physical reality while they're still asleep, but their consciousness is present and aware. And those two sources were the psychic Edgar Cayce, who said explicitly that everybody has out of body experiences every time they go or every night when they're in delta stage, which you will typically have two or three delta stages during a night. And then there was another one who was Bob Monroe, who was one of the pioneers of astral travel, the western and the western world. He was, you know, he wrote some best selling books about the subject, journeys out of body in particular. And Bob said that he set up a sleep lab at Monroe Institute where they could monitor him on e, you know, with EEGs, monitor his brain waves as he was asleep. And because he was such an experienced astral traveler, by that point he could tell at what point he was actually out of body. And the EEG was showing that it was happening during the delta stage of sleep. So this is a way of saying that we're all experiencing this. It's just that it is such an unfamiliar state of consciousness that there's nothing for memory to cross associate with, or there's very little for memory to cross associate with. And I think that's why most of us have no idea that it's happening for us too. Every night when we sleep and go into delta stage, we plug into something greater, like some kind of greater field of consciousness where other entities exist, humans who've passed, other humans who are dreaming and perhaps other types of life forms, and that that's what's kind of feeding into our subconscious mind. Like we tap into these information or data streams and then we have experiences in our dreams with these other types of intelligences and forms of consciousness. So, yeah, I think that it happens. And Edgar Casey and Bob Monroe think it happens. And, you know, my friend Steve, who's been doing this stuff for the past 50 years, since he started his shamanic training long ago as a teenager. You know, people who've gone very deep into meditation, people who use psychotropic breath
- [50:38]
Grainger Ad Voice
work,
- [50:41]
JM Debord
and many others who've tried out these different ways of disciplining the mind and getting into other states of consciousness have said that they have these experiences, too. And so while I haven't had conscious memory of these things happening to me, I. I think they're telling the truth. And I think there is a greater phenomenon that this is all part of or phenomena, plural. These. There's an umbrella for these different reported phenomena related to aliens, dreams, remote viewing, psychic ability. And I think it's all falling that if we could find the common denominator between them, I think that we could make great progress towards really understanding what's going on.
- [51:33]
Simon Baun
Well, I want to change the subject a bit. I was thinking of this idea that UFOs change over the years, and perhaps it's. There's this point where we think we're starting to get a handle on it, and then something changes and it becomes weirder. It's almost like there's a trickster element to it that's always wanting to leave us, you know, just confused.
- [51:59]
JM Debord
Yeah. And that is something that I talked about in the Science of the Paranormal, that with paranormal phenomena, that there is this, as you described it, a trickster element to it. There's a scholar named Jason Giorgiani who has written about these things. And I saw him on a podcast interview where he was talking about this, this trickster that is associated with paranormal and UFO phenomena. And he said that he's traced it back, going back thousands of years, that there has been this presence in human civilization that seems to just stay beyond the reaches of the rational minds and rational understanding of life and is influencing human beings from that periphery. And he said that, he gave an example that the intelligentsia of these cultures ignores it at their own peril because empires have fallen because of what emerges from the fringes. And he gave two examples. One was the Prophet Muhammad coming out of the desert with, you know, this army of desert Bedouins who swept over Arabia and then expanded out from there. It started off as very much a fringe movement. I mean, if you read what he experienced, you know, peace be unto him. But it sounds crazy from a rational Western point of view. He says he went into a cave and started having contact experiences with an angel. You know, like, okay, and not just once or twice, but over and over again, you know, and the other one. So that was one that Jason Giorgiani cited as an example of this fringe phenomenon that can very much make itself known in a big time sort of way. In other words, empires fall, you know, new religions form that spread across, you know, regions. And then the other one he said that was laughed off by the intelligentsia of the time was Christianity. Early Christianity was viewed by the Romans as this fringe movement that that would be easy to defeat and would never pose any sort of threat to them and their power. So they laughed off the Christians and their stories about their resurrected Messiah. And, you know, it took a few centuries, but Christianity ended up becoming the religion of Rome and probably the thing that saved their empire from collapse. So I think that these things are there. There is something present in the human experience that remains at the fringes. It can be ignored if you want to personally or collectively. We can ignore these things and pretend like they don't exist, but what they'll do is they'll find their way in through the people who are living at the margins of a society. It finds their way in and then works through them for whatever its agenda is. And it is sometimes a trickster agenda. It is sometimes a, you know, an overthrow of the existing order. And that might be why this subject is being suppressed so vehemently. Because there are people who don't want it to gain a foothold in the minds of the population. Enough so that it could start changing the way that people perceive. Enough so that they start thinking that there is a power greater than the power that runs their civilization. A greater power than human power.
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Simon Baun
It's been great talking to you again. The book that we were talking about on the other podcast is the Science of the Paranormal. The Truth Behind Telepathy, esp. Reincarnation, and more mysterious phenomena. Do you have a website?
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JM Debord
Jmdeboard.com is my main hub for as an author who has a lot of content out there on various platforms.
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So.
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JM Debord
J M D E B O R D. And yeah, it leads to my books. It leads to my online school for dream interpretation and information about me, if anyone's interested in it. So, yeah, that would be the place where I would go. The Science of the Paranormal is a. I mean, I. I loved writing the book. It takes you through 150 years of research into the paranormal and it delves into what you would call what would qualify as the science. In other words, there are people who have tried to follow the scientific method to see how far they could get with this, or who have not just tried, but who have followed it and had their research in some cases validated through replication, through peer review. All the things that we, you know, look for, for to say that the science is good, the research is good. So yeah, that's all in that book. And if I could mention real quick, I have a book on dream interpretation. It's called dreams 1, 2, 3, 3 steps to interpret Dreams. It's only on Amazon and only available in print. And it is, it was more than 10 years that I wrote that book off and on. Of course, you know, not 10 years straight, but I put 10 years of effort into detailing how I interpret dreams. And if there's there, this dovetails back with what we've been talking about here. Because when people want to know about this stuff and through dreams they come to me and ask me like questions like you did, you know, can dreams be like a portal to have contact experiences? And the answer is yes. Be careful what you wish for, but yes. And can dreams tell the future known as precognition? The answer is there are cases that have been documented that are so, well, you know, hell, I've experienced it too. I know it's real. But you ha. You need to understand dreams conventionally first. You have to be able to interpret dreams through the lens of conventional interpretation techniques, which I draw mostly from depth psychology because it's easy to be misled or to mislead yourself or to think that something is one thing but it's another. Like in the example of people think that they're having an alien abduction experience because they dream about floating out their window. And I go, well, I've seen this before in other dreams. And I also know that there's phenomena such as out of body experience that occurs, occurs during sleep. Your brain is trying to reconcile something that it's experiencing that it doesn't have. We'll call it prior art to draw from, to be able to help you to understand what you're experiencing. So it draws from what it knows best. It explains it in terms of alien abduction, but that's not necessarily what it is. That's the imagery that's wrapping around a deeper sort of experience. You have to understand dream interpretation first. So go to that book, dreams 1, 2, 3, 3 steps to interpret your dreams. I take you from beginning to end and I give you a three step process to follow. I give you lots of demonstrations of the method, my dreams, 1, 2, 3, method in action. And in the hardcover book, I give you 350 pages of dense learning. But that's also fun and easy to follow because there are so many demonstrations of this. And Simon, I go there at times. It's not just conventional dream interpretation. I talk about things like precognition and dream characters that seem to be projected into your dream. Not just characters in the traditional sense of what most people experience as dream characters, where they have experiences of things where they are. They think that it's objectively real. I have enough experience with this that I can actually give you ways of discerning is this objectively real or is it a subjectively rendered experience? And so it's all there in the book. And I would advise people who want to open up that door or to continue their learning in it to learn dream interpretation first, first in the conventional way, so that then they are armed with the knowledge and information they need to be able to safely go further with this. So thank you for giving me a chance to share that information.
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Simon Baun
Thanks for coming on the podcast.
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JM Debord
My pleasure. I. It's. It's. I love talking about this and especially the way that you came at the subject with, you know, kind of more interested in some of the wild side of this. I appreciate the opportunity to talk about that stuff because it's, it's what really fascinates me too. And I have done a lot of research into it that is maybe not so well known. Maybe sales of Ingo Swan's book Penetration will pick up after your listeners. It is a wild book, let me tell you, man. So you know people out there who are interested in these subjects. We've just given you lots of sources that you can go down, you know, rabbit holes that you can go into where you can find out some really interesting stuff. So, yeah, thanks for giving me a chance to share all that.
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Simon Baun
And that was an interview with JM Debord about UFOs and his book the Science of the Paranormal, the Truth Behind Telepathy, esp reincarnation, and More Mysterious phenomena. A great way to support the podcast is to sign up to Patreon, where you can get exclusive access to the extended version of this episode. Just go to patreon.com alien ufopodcast and my website is simonbown.com and if you enjoy this podcast, please leave a review and be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or via your favorite podcast app to make sure that you don't miss out on any episodes. And thanks for listening.