← Alien UFO Podcast
Alien UFO Podcast
Unidentified Submerged Objects
00:57:33
This week I'm talking to Richard Dolan about his book 'A History of USOs, Unidentified Submerged Objects: Volume 2: From 1970 to 1989'
Loading summary
Transcript53 lines
- [00:01]
Advertiser
Listen, whether or not you believe we're actually alone out there, I think we can agree on one thing. The pondering goes better with a little enhancement. That's mood. Mood.com despite what you've heard in the news, THC products like Moods are still federally legal to buy online and they ship discreetly straight to your door. Here's the part that'll actually get you it's not just about thc. Different terpenes take you to different places. Social focused, chilled out, blissfully euphoric and mood sorts everything. Their gummies flower edible and pre rolls all by the vibe that you're chasing. Want to sit under the stars and connect some dots? Well their mind magic gummies are built for exactly that kind of creative deep dive. First timers get 20% off their whole order with code ALIEN UFO. Plus your purchase is backed by a hundred day satisfaction guarantee. So head to mood.com and use code alien UFO. The truth is out there. But the good stuff that's on mood.com you know recommendations can be great. Maybe someone recommended this podcast and here you are. But home projects are different. If a podcast isn't your thing, you lose a few minutes. If you hire your cousin's neighbor to mount your tv, you might end up with a lopsided screen and wall damage. Maybe I know a guy just isn't enough for your home. That's why thumbtack works. It matches you with top rated local pros with photos, reviews and credentials all in one place. For your next home project, try thumbtack. Hire the right pro today.
- [01:35]
Simon Bown
This is the Alien UFO podcast, episode 240 and I'm your host Simon Bown. And if you want to listen to the extended version of this episode, you can join Patreon. Just go to patreon.com alien ufopodcast this week I'm talking to Richard Dolan about his book A History of unidentified submerged objects, volume two from 1970 to 1989. Richard Dolan is one of the best known UFO researchers in the world. He's the author of several groundbreaking books in the field. Hi Richard, Thanks a lot for coming back to the podcast.
- [02:17]
Richard Dolan
Greetings Simon. It's a pleasure to be back with you again.
- [02:20]
Simon Bown
So we're going to talk about your book. It's called a history of USOs unidentified submerged objects, volume two from 1970 to 1989. And there's something you say in the book is that USOs have remained the neglected sibling of UFO research. Why do you think that is?
- [02:40]
Richard Dolan
I was just trying to think of a catchy way to introduce it and to visualize it, but it is, it's somewhat true. You know, I've personally been interested in this subject of UAP or UFOs for 35, I think about 35 years now. And I've always found the intrinsic nature of a USO case, that is a water based case to be very interesting. But it's, it was never something that really got a lot of attention in the, in the field or in the community. I think in large part because there actually aren't as many cases of them as there are of just straight up aerial sightings that people see. And I think also just because most of us were normally not out in the middle of a large body of water usually. And so I think there's just a lot that we miss. But it's, it's an absolutely fascinating part of the larger phenomenon. And about, I think four, four or so years ago, I was just looking into one or two particular USO cases just sort of on my own. And I thought, you know, these are, where are these cases being stored? Is there a single, is like, is there a book that's a good repository? Are there databases where I can look? And there was very little of that. There was some good work done on the subject and some of the cases were collected. The main website that had, that is now gone, that was by a late researcher named Carl Find, who did very good work on this. But basically I think very little of this was, was known or publicized or just distributed in any way. And I thought I would like to, I would like to see how much I can find. So my initial step was simply to search, whether on the web or look for old magazines or old books that discussed cases. And I tried collecting as many as I could. And I realized there was more than enough for several books here. And my goal just became very simple, to kind of give life back to these fascinating and forgotten cases that I'm quite sure that for the witnesses who experienced them, they were probably one of the most incredible experiences of their lives. And yet they're sort of forgotten, even among experienced researchers. I think probably 98, 99% of these cases that I found have been unknown. So that's why I think they're the forgotten sibling. They just sort of pass by. There's been more attention to this aspect of the phenomenon in the last couple of years, which I think is all to the good, but there's still very much that we don't know. And that's why I wanted to put this series together.
- [05:22]
Simon Bown
So how does the USO behavior change between volume one of your book and volume two? Do you see a progression?
- [05:31]
Richard Dolan
Yes, there is some. There are what I think I would call behavioral adaptations. So to just refresh if listeners aren't familiar, my first volume of this came out about a year ago that covered the phenomenon from what I felt were the earliest good cases, going back a few hundred years up until the end of 1969. And really, most of that book covers the 20th century, but there are some very good 19th century cases and a handful that are a little earlier. And then the second volume covers simply two decades, only two decades, 1970s and 1980s. And I had to do it that way because there were just so many new cases in the 1970s, particularly as well as the early 80s. So something was going on, but there were definite changes. One way that I, I was able to track these changes is I, I ended up creating a lot of specific categories for each case. So, and that's, that's visible to the reader at the beginning of the case. So like, did this happen in the daytime or nighttime? And what shape was the craft? What color was the craft? Did it give off any specific effects like electromagnetic effects or missing time or, you know, any kind of strange thing? Was it a military case? And on and on. I put these together and then I put them all in a large spreadsheet so I was able to see patterns. One thing I noticed was that starting at the very end of the 1960s, this was totally unexpected. But I noticed that whereas up until, say, 1967, 68, all of the cases that I found that I included were 50% occurred during the daytime and 50% occurred during the nighttime, which might be what you would expect, perhaps, if you thought this was a kind of random phenomenon. And then starting in 1968, it goes to almost like flipping a switch to 75, 74, 75% occurring at night, all very, very. A very quick change. Now I could think, well, maybe there's. I just have a small data sample and everything is skewed, but I don't think so. I've collected about 700 cases that I wanted to discuss. I didn't select them on the basis of whether they occurred at the day in daytime or night. So something seems to have happened. And plus I noticed that if it was a military case, if it involving someone's military, then it switched to nearly 90% occurring at night after, after the late 60s. So to me, that's evidence of behavior, which of course, if someone is a student of the UFO phenomenon, they would say, well, of course there's intelligent behavior there, but I think it's noteworthy to see this because there are many people who are still skeptical about this or don't think that it's an intelligent phenomenon. And I think this speaks to that. And then you're left asking, well, is this a man made thing or does it seem too difficult for that? And that's a whole other issue. But in any case, that's one change that I noticed is that this switch to night, another change that I saw that was undeniable was the sheer vast upsurge in quantity that seems to have occurred in, starting in the late 60s, combined with a much higher percentage of electromagnetic interference directed against, and I say directed against, whether military vessels or civilians. So, you know, the clock, your watch would stop, the clock would stop, your radio would go off your boat's engine, or your ship's engine or communication systems would go offline, or your ship's weapon systems would go offline, this type of thing. And that happened to a very, very high degree, both in percentage and in quantity during the 1970s especially. I thought that was strange. And I, I don't know if I have an answer for that, but I certainly noticed it. So there are these very interesting behavioral changes that I did notice happening in the 1970s, for reasons that I still can't really pin down, seem to be a key decade in this phenomenon. And I can only, I can't say I can only, but I primarily speculate that this seems to be something that is genuinely from, from those beings or intelligences behind it. Like something, something happened on their end that prompted them to engage in this type of new behavior.
- [10:08]
Simon Bown
So it's not a thing where as human technology becomes more capable of detecting them, we're seeing more of them. Because after the 70s, I suppose it kind of died off a little bit slightly.
- [10:19]
Richard Dolan
Yes, so that's a very good point. Now again, I really have to emphasize that it's entirely possible that as more years go by, more individuals will retroactively or subsequently report their experience from an earlier decade. This happened a lot with the 1970s, so, so there were a lot of people, especially old Navy guys who'd been retired, writing on some blog reporting. This is what happened to me back in 1974, you know, something like that. And maybe that will happen for the 1990s or the early 2000s. But right now, for example, the 1990s seem to have a bit of a dip in USO accounts that I have been able to find and you know, we're 30 or three decades past the 1990s. One would think that more cases would have come out, and some have, and some are very, very good, but not as much as the 1970s. So, you know, you would think as. As you point out that with more, you know, ease of global communication, a simpler way of reporting things, that we would get more. Now, the 2010s, which I'll be writing about in my third volume, was a very active decade. And I suspect that there is a lot more that we'll learn about in the future, again, as certain people retire, they get older and they report their case years later. But something was, I think, genuinely going on in the early and mid and late 70s. This also is. You can see correspondence in the aerial UFO phenomenon. I haven't really. It's not easy to do a genuine full tally of all reported cases. How does one do that? I mean, the databases are very incomplete. But I've always felt the 1970s was a very active decade for aerial UFOs, and so maybe it's not surprising that it should be the case for USOs as well.
- [12:24]
Simon Bown
So with this thing with shutting down weapons systems or affecting other systems on ships, it reminds me of people reporting their car engines stopping when the UFO is close.
- [12:36]
Richard Dolan
Exactly.
- [12:36]
Simon Bown
But also I wonder if it's like they're demonstrating their capabilities, like they might do with shutting down nuclear missiles.
- [12:46]
Richard Dolan
Yeah, entirely possible that, that they are giving a demonstration. I've wondered about that many times. I've come to call what they do data denial. So a typical pattern will be like, let's make it a military encounter. In this case, a vessel like either a US Navy vessel or a Soviet Navy vessel, I.e. a Russian Soviet Navy vessel, will be out on the open water and an object will approach, sometimes low over the water, sometimes coming out of the water. And at its closest approach to the vessel, the report will often state that's when our communication systems went offline, or that is when our weapons systems went offline. That is when, in one Soviet case, I'm thinking of the entire ship, engine stopped, of a significant warship. And when the object departs, then the systems come back online. So I call that data denial. Because what I speculate here, and this is only speculation based on looking at the behavior, they come in close, and it seems to me that they, whoever they are, are studying or observing that vessel. And maybe the technology, maybe the weapons, I'm not sure. And they prevent that the object that they are studying from studying them back. So if we want to acquire data, whether optically or in any kind of along the electromagnetic spectrum or in any manner. They deny that. So I call that data denial. It seems to me that when I look at this historically, let's just walk through, say, the 20th century, from 1900 to the end of that century. It's a very big century of technological change. Obviously in 1900, that was the year that human beings created the first genuinely operational submarine. We were able to go under the water in a safe way that, that kind of succeeded. There were, there were experimental submarines prior to that, but they weren't really that effective. So we start that in 1900. So if, let's just assume that there was another intelligence that was engaged in some kind of operation here, unbeknownst to humanity, they would have to notice that, well, by 1900, the oceans really belonged to them. They, we had no ability to get into the water. But during that century, we developed sonar. Early on we developed all kinds of radio communications above the surface. And then we developed more effective submarines and then aircraft carriers and large battleships. And we turned the sea lanes into massive commercial highways. And by the 1950s, we developed nuclear submarines, which you could stay under the water for extended many months at a time. So that's all in just a few decades. And then it just became more and more intense. By the, also the 1950s, the United States was implementing a very increasingly expansive underwater sonar detection system off both of the US coastlines. And the Russians were following with the same. And so suddenly, if you're them, you realize we have to make some adaptations here because maybe we don't want these curious, nosy, territorial humans to be watching us as carefully as all that. So we have to make our own adjustments. And I suspect that some of these close approaches that, you know, one you read about over and over again in the USO literature, that maybe this is something that they're doing. They're essentially asking, what are these humans up to now? What, what new systems do they have online? Do we, you know, what's, what's our best way to counter, counteract them? And so on. So it's just a guess, but that is what it seems like. And also back to the. The transformation from date from day and night being even to mostly nighttime operations starting in the late 60s, I, I suspect, or at least I hypothesize, that this too has an adaptation on their part in that in the very late 1960s, the United States dramatically improved satellite known as the Keyhole satellite, where a much more sophisticated optical system was installed, which made it very, very effective. Even more so during daytime, but not as effective at night. It still didn't have night, you know, capability. So one might hypothesize and it's just a guess that maybe that was one reason to prompt more movement toward nighttime operations. So I guess my working theory is that this phenomenon is marked by as much adaptation on their side as, as it is technological progress on our side. You know, we make a new development and they are monitoring and potentially adapting to that.
- [18:08]
Simon Bown
But there's also a thing where they, they may be showing up on purpose because there's reports in your book about sailors seeing really bright lights underneath the water. And I would imagine they don't need to do that. They're doing that because they want to be seen. And are they going past submarines really fast underwater also as a display? Because I'm sure I heard a story of a guy being on board a nuclear submarine and they saw something go past at 2 or 300 knots and the crew wouldn't talk to him about it. But they seemed to act like this was not unknown, they'd seen it before.
- [18:45]
Richard Dolan
Yes, I think I'm wondering if you are referring to a very interesting account by researcher named Mark d'. Antonio. You might be.
- [18:53]
Simon Bown
Yeah, I think so.
- [18:53]
Richard Dolan
In any. Well, Mark had a very almost identical story. He's, he's an American researcher, he's pretty well known and I know Mark. He has mentioned more than once that on one occasion he's never given the exact date on this or even the location. I'm guessing it might have been the 1990s, but I can't really know. Or maybe early 2000s. But he was a guest, he said, on a nuclear submarine and he just happened to be close enough to when the, in the main comm room there, they detected a very fast moving underwater object. And he kind of laughed about this and after the fact, but he said, yes, I thought maybe I could tell the XO that, well, this is interesting. I know a thing OR2 about UFOs and the XO just said, Mr. Dantonio, do you like it here? Yes, if you want to, if you want to stay here, you won't say anything else or something like that, but there are a few interesting submarine stories coming from the, the U.S. side that speak to what you're just referring to these very fast moving objects. They're hard to find there. I have more of these accounts from people reporting from surface vessels, but a few submarine cases have come to me. You get a lot of the submarine cases or quite A few from Soviet sources from during the Cold war, in the 19 late 60s through the 70s, the Soviet Navy, the Soviet submarine fleet encountered what they came to call, and I'm sure I will botch the pronunciation of this, but the kavakheri, it's K V e kavakheri or K V a K E R I in English. And that's their word for croakers, like frogs croaking. And that's because they would be in the water and their sonar would detect this very strange kind of croaking sound and wondering, what is this? And the sound would sometimes circle their submarine while they're under the water, of course, and move by and make these passing by and then coming back and so forth. And their question was, what are, is this American technology? That was a very big question that was asked. We know, at least from a number of Russian sources that there was a study done within the Soviet Navy on this. And to my knowledge, I'm not aware of any conclusion that they came to except that they did not believe this was American. So, you know, there is, it's a very interesting part when you think of the history of the Cold War, you know, and the, the, the submarine, history of the Cold War. I mean, it's just so dramatic. You're in a submarine, it's pitch black all around you. You've got your listening devices, you're looking for the enemy. The enemy or the adversaries are looking for you. But then there is this third party, this other, other intelligence, this other technology that is operating down there. And I, I think it makes for a very dramatic story that we've only just barely even in my books, just scratching the surface of telling. I think there's much more going on there.
- [22:22]
Simon Bown
Is there a Soviet story that really stands out to you? A case?
- [22:27]
Richard Dolan
Oh, many, yeah. The Russians have some remarkable cases. And here's the thing about the Soviet side of it. You know, during most of the history of the Soviet Union, that was a communist state. It was under a very, very strict ideological control. The nation was. And there was a strong amount of, let's say, informational control within the society. And so discussion of UFOs in general was for the most part, very highly restricted. There were some exceptions. There was a bit of Soviet UFO research that happened even in the late 1950s, a man named Yuri Foman, that was then squashed. And then in the mid-60s and late-60s, there was a resurgence briefly of Soviet UFO research that was also allowed and then sort of pulled back. Although in that case I think the researchers, some of them continued their research more quietly. And then starting in the late 70s, there was a very significant UFO event in a place called Petrozavodsk, which is well known to this day. And that, I think, sparked a much more serious institutional response by the Soviet military and their academic world. And they created a formal set of programs, both in the military and academic component, to study this. So I'm getting a little off track here. But I guess my point is that the Russians took a very serious interest in this after. At least in their public aspect of it after a while. Some of the cases are extraordinary because. But it's frustrating because there's often we don't have the exact dates because there was a lot of repression at various points. These were passed on orally. People would talk about it. And then at the fall of the Soviet Union, some of these stories either leaked out or came out in a few years later. So it's an unfortunate aspect that some of these we don't have dates on. So, for example, in my first volume of USO history, I found a couple of Soviet cases from the Black Sea. Of course, they have ser. Significant navy presence there where of objects leaving the ocean and at times circling around their ships. There's not a lot of detail in some of those cases from the 1950s. There are. There's some extraordinary, very dramatic cases that, you know, even now I don't. I really wonder. Like, one, for example, is maybe the most sensational called. It's nicknamed the Swimmers. And this takes place at a location known as Lake Baikal, which is in Siberia. It is the largest. No, not the largest. It is the oldest and the deepest freshwater lake in the world. It has more water than all of the Great Lakes in the. In North America. Incredibly, even though it doesn't take up as much area, but it's very deep. So the Soviet Navy has done a lot of. Of work there. And in 1982, we are told. Actually, I want to back up. I don't know if Baikal has more water than all of the Great Lakes or than any one of the Great Lakes. Anyway, it's got a lot of water in there. In 1982, Soviet divers were doing some training there, and they reportedly encountered beings in the water of Lake Baikal. Very tall. They were dubbed the Swimmers. And they came up and surfaced and they were supposedly ordered to go capture one of these swimmers and they go back down. And according to the story, the Soviet divers experienced a kind of sonic shock wave that hit them and forced them immediately to surface, giving all of them what we colloquially call the bends, very serious. And several of them died because the, according to the story, there was not enough equipment, decompression chambers functioning enough to save all of them. It's a terrible story, but it's sensational. We have the names of a number of officers and people that supposedly were involved in this. We don't have an exact date and we certainly don't have any confirmation. So it's strange. What I can say about Lake Baikal is that I do have a case that will be in my third volume from 1996, this is in the post Soviet era of a genuine USO supposedly emerging from that lake, was witnessed by a number of people. So it's, you know, I think the story of the swimmers is, it's out there. And you know, in my treatment of it, I, I just openly state, look, I don't really know what more to make of it, but it's, it's a story that is circulated enough that I think it needed to be discussed. So. But the Russians have had a number of these very, very fascinating cases of objects emerging from the water. The Sea of Okhotsk, which is often to the Soviet Far east and places off the coast of Kamchatka or in the peninsula of Kamkatka in some local large lakes. There's been a lot of USO activity reported there. So the Russians, Soviets have had more than their share of, of just fascinating, fascinating events with this.
- [28:13]
Simon Bown
There was some kind of sonic thing happened there with the divers. But do you find that USOs are generally, I wouldn't say friendly, but have you got any cases of them being openly hostile?
- [28:27]
Richard Dolan
There's one very well known series of events that involves aerial UFOs and USOs in the same wave of events. And this is in the place known as Colares, Brazil. And this was in the late 1970s. And this is a bit of an outlier because I think if you were implying that there are not many cases of overt hostility, that would be true.
- [28:51]
Advertiser
Most.
- [28:52]
Richard Dolan
The vast majority of interactions with these objects and us, we humans, have not been overtly hostile. They've engaged in what I call data denial. And they'll engage in all kinds of elusive behavior where sometimes, yes, they want to be seen, but usually they don't want us to interact with them. So that's the norm. But in this case of, in Colaris it was different. So Calaris is a region, it's in the Amazon delta, where the Amazon just flows into the Atlantic Ocean over A massive. I mean, the Amazon delta is an absolutely huge geographic area. Calaris is just one small part of it. But in the late 1970s, local people there started reporting lots of strange lights, often blue lights under the water. They could not identify objects coming low over the water, sometimes objects seen emerging from the water. And what was different in the case of Calaris is that people reported injuries. Often you would get this report that a beam of light would come from the object above them and actually strike a person. And sometimes people reported that it was striking them through their homes, through the roofs or walls of their home. And people would actually report. And this is almost crazy when you think of it, but the light would strike them and they felt that they were like losing part of their blood or their hemoglobin or something was being extracted from them. These are really seemingly crazy stories. However, the area doctor examined many of these people. One person verifiably died from these interactions. Many, many others were seriously injured. The Brazilian Air Force sent a company of 100 men led by an officer named Yarangi Hollanda, and they conducted an extended investigation of this. It was called Operation Saucer, at least in English, or Operation Plato, I think is Brazilian plate, but saucer, I guess. And Hollanda himself saw an object emerge from the water, he said. Hollanda also stated that he saw. He and his men saw some of these objects very large overhead. This is a very significant series of events. A number of Western researchers have written about it as well, lots of Brazilian researchers. And it seemed to be a very serious and dangerous event. What was going on here? What was the purpose of this? I don't think anybody knows.
- [31:42]
Simon Bown
I was wondering about the technology that they have, because there's that idea that they're transmedium. They come out of space, go through air, down into the water, with seemingly no decrease in speed. If we sense something underwater, it's like hitting a brick wall. But when they go into the water, do people say there's no splash or turbulence or. Or when they come out of the water, is it like there's nothing dripping off it? It seems completely dry.
- [32:09]
Richard Dolan
In many cases, yes, although not in all cases. So, you know, that's a question that I've. I've asked myself, like, why in some cases and why not others? I mentioned the name of Carl Find earlier. Carl is no longer alive now, but he really asked this question many times, and he wrote a book on UFOs and water, called it, and he addressed this question as well. His own theory, which I think makes a lot of sense to me is that this has something to do with the field that is generated around these craft creating a kind of cavitation. If you're under the water like a, like a bubble, like you, you're kind of within. And that somehow the cavitation that is created allows the, the craft in the water to move much, much faster than it ordinarily would because it's actually not directly, you know, interacting with the water, which is a lot much denser of course, in air. So that's a theory that's about the most scientific detail that I am able to give you because it's really not in my expertise in any way. But I think this is, I don't think Carl Feit was the only one who thought this. I think there's a lot of number of scientists, physicists who look at this speculate that that might just be what they're doing and that would also allow us to speculate as to why they can move so fast in the air without making a sonic boom or things like this. It's, they're creating a kind of field around themselves that when they enter the water allows the craft to do so without that big splash. And yeah, there are a number of cases as you point out where, where a craft is seen emerging from the water without any dripping water. Sometimes though they are noted for dripping a lot of water. But there are certain instances where they're not. So Carl speculated maybe when they're, they're making the splash or they're dripping water that they don't have their, a certain aspect of their field engaged, you know, but he was just. We're all just trying to come up with the best explanations we can at times.
- [34:19]
Simon Bown
So do you find there are a lot more military encounters than civilian.
- [34:24]
Richard Dolan
No, there are more civilian encounters, although the military cases that I have found take up a, you know, decent portion. I'm trying to remember what the percentage is. Maybe like 25% or even maybe more at times. So there, there's quite a few, but most of the cases are of just ordinary people reporting some kind of extraordinary thing. And, and some of those are the most fascinating cases of all. You know, by, by far there's one from. This is actually a very well documented case and whatever this was, I can't really know. But in the state of Matt U. S. State of Massachusetts in the early 1970s at a little place called Scargo Lake, there are two boys in separate locations like 12 year old kids. They see this glowing object approaching from the air and this is during the winter time. And it seemed to come down near this lake in the area. So shortly, very shortly after this, investigators saw this very clean circular opening that was melted through very thick lake ice. The hole actually penetrated completely through this frozen surface and all the surrounding ice was totally intact. There was no conventional explanation for this. There is a diver who went down into the water. One of the boys witnesses told a very experienced investigator by the name of Walter Webb. He said the object came down right here, like he pointed to the lake. So you have an eyewitness and you've got this hole in the lake. They eventually sent a diver in there into this frozen lake below the surface and he was not able to find anything. But that was a very strange, very, very strange case that made the local newspapers. It obviously happened and it would seem, you know, that this thing entered the lake. It's a couple. There's a series of events again in the United States in, you know, we're all familiar with the Pascagoula case in Mississippi from 1973. It's a well known abduction event involving men in Charles Hickson and Calvin Parker. And that could have been a USO as well. The craft that they saw when they were fishing that morning was directly over the water. But I'm thinking of a case that happened a week later in the exact same region and this is a proven case. The United States Coast Guard was involved in this. You had a number of witnesses who noted that there was this fast moving, small. Artificial object under the water that was moving very fast. Coast Guard very quickly arrived there and reported and saw the exact same thing. In fact, they were out on the water and they, someone had a wooden oar to one of their boats and they actually struck the craft, this object under the water with their oar incredibly. And it, it just moved off. But this was a, a hard shelled, fast moving object. There was speculation of something called a midget sub. There are such things. Question is what? The Russians operating a midget sub off the coast of Mississippi in 1973. We don't have an answer for it, but the description of the maneuverability of this thing was just off the charts. Very, very highly, highly maneuverable. It doesn't, there's nothing that I can, I'm aware of that could, could move that way. So lots and lots of civilian cases for sure. I guess the most intriguing ones to me often are military. There's one actually, I'll just mention another American case from the State of Washington out off the Pacific Ocean there, a place called Lummi Island. And this really does strike me as potentially a USO retrieval that took place that year. So In July of 1984 there was a fishing boat. A number of other witnesses watch see an object, this is late, late at night, descending toward the water off this tiny little island in the state of Washington. The reason it was so strange is that it reportedly did a, a U turn as it was descending and it did a U turn to go back up and it maneuvered a little bit more and then went into the water. And this object made a huge splash apparently so that that was noted and written about. And the Coast Guard looked at that and said I'll make probably meteorites and the whole U turn thing, maybe that was just mis interpretation, who knows? Months later there were private divers. This is now, now it's late winter, late December and they decide we're gonna go check this out. So they people rented a boat with all kinds of radar, sonar equipment on board. And there was a diving team that was assembled and two divers, one after the other from this boat went down. They both said that there is this metallic disc shaped object embedded into the seabed there. And one of them actually was standing on it. He said one had a recording equipment that everything failed when he went down there. I think in this, I'm not 100% sure on this, but one investigator, there was one man who really did a thorough, thorough investigation of this. Couple of years later, one of the divers had the ability to send a, some kind of visual up to the boat above the water or some kind of information and that that was seen, but it wasn't recorded. And then his camera and equipment died anyway. So they came back up and they said, well, we're out of oxygen, where it's getting dark, let's come back tomorrow and let's see if we can retrieve this thing. And there were reports through the night of all kinds of traffic, aerial and, and seaborne traffic in that area. And the story is that when they went, went back, it looked all over the place and the object was gone. There was some follow up investigation by American researchers who stated that there was a report of a strange object arriving at Wright Patterson Air Force Base in very, very early January of 1985. That came from the Pacific Northwest at that time. And the speculation is that it might have been this object. That's the Lummi island incident is fascinating. There's no proof that this was a crash, USO or ufo, but it certainly seems like it could be possible to me. And so I definitely Wanted that in there.
- [41:51]
Simon Bown
Well, have there ever been reports, people saying they've been abducted from a boat by uso?
- [42:00]
Richard Dolan
Yeah, a few. Not many. A couple. The ones that I was able. What do you get more than that are a few people who reported bizarre missing time who did not necessarily follow up to, you know, do something like regressive hypnosis or what have you to try to unpack their experience. So there are a few cases that did seem very suspicious. I'm thinking of another. It's another American case. The Americans are really excited about reporting these things. They will have to report these objects near a very famous hotspot off the west coast of LA called Catalina Island. It's very well known in certain circles for having a lot of activity there. So there was a. I can't remember the exact date on this one, and I think. I think this was in my second volume, man with a boat going out from LA to Catalina Island. It's an easy boat ride. It's, I think, something like 30 miles or 20 miles. It can easily be done, and people do it. So he. He saw. I can't remember that. He saw something very bizarre. Some kind of unusual light in the water that made absolutely no sense to him. And he arrived two hours later at his destination. He had absolutely no comprehension as to how he could have been so far off. There's one. One now we're getting into some really strange stuff, but I really wanted to include this. This is from. It's the sole, the single case of all 700 that I've collected that I took from a remote viewer. So, okay, if someone doesn't know remote viewing, think psychic spies, people who are given certain instructions and they see things that are far, far away that they're not supposed to be able to see. That's remote viewing. The US army has had a number of very good remote viewers. One, he's still around. His name is Bill Ray. He was a former officer in the Army. Very excellent remote viewer. And in the 1980s, he was. He talked about this. He was tasked with remote viewing what happened to this US Navy vessel off the coast of South America, I think, off of the coast of Argentina. Buenos Aires, I think. And. And this is an event that supposedly happened in the early 80s, the Gulf of Matthias, I think it's called. And he stated that the people on this vessel were. Were taken aboard a craft. He described gray aliens. You know, the classic small grays with big, big black eyes. And it was apparently a terrifying experience for the men on board. There's A lot that we do not know. Apparently this was a ship that was found without. This is crazy. Without. Without the men on board reminded me of the 19th century case of the Mary Celeste, which is a famous kind of disappearance. But this was with a US Navy vessel supposedly. And Bill Ray remote viewed it. One thing Bill did say, and he has an interview, you can listen to it on YouTube. He said this was he'd served in combat. He's did a lot of things in his life. This remote view, he said was one of the most terrifying experiences he's ever had. Just doing the remote view. He's a very level headed guy. I just have to say, you know, he's highly intelligent. I corresponded with Bill. He, in my view he is absolutely the real deal. And whether you can believe or not believe his remote view, he himself is experienced at this and I think is a very, as I say, a very level headed man. Best thing that's ever happened to you financially. Go easy. Sold by car on Carvana.
- [46:03]
Advertiser
Amazing offer really.
- [46:04]
Richard Dolan
I hit 200 on a scratcher. Did the scratcher come to your house
- [46:07]
Advertiser
and hand you a check?
- [46:09]
Richard Dolan
No.
- [46:09]
Advertiser
How many scratchers did you hit to get that? I hit a button on Carvana.com once.
- [46:14]
Richard Dolan
Okay, that's fair. It's like the lottery except you always win. Not like the lottery at all actually.
- [46:20]
Advertiser
Exactly. Inexplicably good offers worth bragging about.
- [46:25]
Richard Dolan
Sell your car today on Carvana.
- [46:27]
Advertiser
Pick up fees may apply.
- [46:29]
Simon Bown
There's a case I wanted to ask you about from May 1987. USS Saratoga in the Bermuda Triangle.
- [46:38]
Richard Dolan
Oh yes.
- [46:39]
Simon Bown
I don't think there's anything to the Bermuda Triangle and all that stuff, but that's where it was.
- [46:45]
Richard Dolan
Well, this case was actually given to me directly by the Navy officer. He was a Navy officer at least when I met with him a little over 10 years ago. He was still active duty as a recruiter for the US Navy when I met him. But back in 1987 he was a signal man aboard the Saratoga. So his job, as he described it to me was, you know, he would stand out on the, on the deck they there staring at the black night sky and looking for. He was an expert in aircraft identification. So he would look for, you know, light patterns and identify that means this aircraft and that aircraft and so forth. And so he's out on the deck of the Saratoga. He said it was May of 1987. And when he, he said the Bermuda Triangle he actually chuckled like, like here's the big. Yeah, we have for real, we're on The Bermuda Triangle. Ha ha. And he said it was sometimes close to midnight. And he sees this light off in the distance, way off in distance, just move vertically, straight up and then stop. And he's thinking, I don't think I can identify that. What is that? And then he said to me that it began moving toward the Saratoga on a zigzag movement. And he's thinking, I really do not know what that is. So he gets on his radio communication, he's talking to the people on the bridge. Do you see that? Yes, we see that. What is that? We don't know what that is. So the ship scrambled in an A10, an attack aircraft to investigate and maybe intercept. This thing was an A7. I think it was an A7. My. My mistake. And the aircraft gets to a certain distance of this. And what the man. What this officer actually said to me is, the aircraft, I think he said it exploded. It totally malfunctioned. The pilot had to eject. And the pilot survived and was recovered. That was good. They lost the aircraft. And then they sent a second aircraft. This was an F14 Tomcat 1987. That was top. Top, you know, US Navy Interceptor. And the F14 gets to a certain distance of this thing. And he said, the object just took off like a bat out of hell, like an instant acceleration, and it was off and gone. And the. The F14, he said, had no chance to intercept this thing. That's the fundamental part of the story. There was an aftermath which was even stranger, very bizarre. And I often find myself wondering, is this related or is this not related? What the hell was this? But what happened is that about an hour later, the ship went, he said, on battle stations general quarters. And he found out later that an hour after this incident that I just described, a sailor was walking below the deck somewhere. And that he said a man walked through the bulkhead. Bulkheads are. I had to look all of this up, but they are basically internal interior supports within the ship. They'll create, like, different air pockets. And so that if the ship takes on water in one area, it won't spread to the entire under, you know, under portion of the ship, this type of thing. So you don't just walk through a bulkhead. The point is. But one sailor said, this man with. Wearing gray coveralls and seemed like a somewhat older man, like, I don't know, maybe in his 50s, something like that, perhaps. Anyway, this man walks through the bulkhead, sees the sailor and says, amain is going to explode or Amain is going to blow Up. And I, I interrupted, I said, well, what's amain? And the man said, it's the main ship's engine. So apparently everyone went down to Amain, a bunch of people, officers, and he said, and there we discovered, or they discovered, the largest fuel leak in the history of the USS Saratoga. And, and what the officer exactly said to me is one spark would have sent the ascent of our ship into the water. So they, they cleaned it up, and so it was a crisis averted. So, I don't know, I sometimes wondered, like, okay, did the man really not walk through the bulkhead? Was a sailor just tired? Did he think someone walked through the bucket? And was this just a ship's engine technician or something? I don't know if it's related, but here's one thing. I think it's a little more than a coincidence that they had this encounter with this advanced aircraft when they were in a very dangerous, perilous state, you know, in a state where they could have had a serious problem on the ship. So I've often wondered, what is the relationship there? And was this a warning, Was this a warning by the Southern Intelligence to say, you guys are in trouble, you better deal with this right now?
- [51:49]
Simon Bown
Yeah, it's the opposite of being hostile, isn't it? Right. That.
- [51:53]
Richard Dolan
That right would be. My sense is I actually, I very much enjoy speculating about the motives and kind of behaviors of these, of these craft and the beings that are presumably in there. I can't really know, but I do think that it's possible at least to make reasonable inferences based on some of these things. So what I, I sense is that they, they find us interesting because we do. We are constantly innovating our technology at this point in our history. We are, you know, we're very capable, but we're also constantly at war. Let's not forget that we are intensely territorial. We compete over resources on this planet. And to the extent that really, we never lack war somewhere on this planet. And they have to be aware of that. So imagine you're this very advanced, at least in terms of your infrastructure and your scientific capabilities and your. The kind of informational bandwidth, let's say that that society presumably has. So you're here now and you're looking at these humans, and you can see that they're, they're making a lot of breakthroughs and they're doing a lot of things, but you can also see, like, they're powerful, but they're brittle. Like, you really have to wonder how, how well would the human Race truly, truly deal with, with these, with these beings. I'm not so sure that we would do a good job of that. So I, I think that they have a policy of non engagement as much, as much as possible. It's like, you know, don't step on the flowers because you could break them. Don't, don't engage in these people because what would they really want to communicate to us? Is it easy for them to communicate? Is it not easy? Probably not. So I think that they, they're here. Earth is a, certainly an amazing, fascinating place with a super abundance of, of life and all genetic diversity. And these, these humans who are the top predator are, are also interesting. I mean we're, we're, you know, moving out into space, we're moving into the deeps of the oceans, we're developing our capability. But I think that they essentially are doing everything possible not to have us engage with them directly. I just get this, this feeling looking at every case that they don't want that. They're not interested in that and they'll avoid that at every chance. But they have to, they do have to monitor and observe and I think that they, they do that frequently enough as well.
- [54:40]
Simon Bown
I saw a press conference in Washington recently and I can't remember who said it might have been a congressman, but they said this information should not be held secret anymore. We need to release this information. And he said the American people can handle it. And me in England, being not American, thought, well, can the people of the world handle it? Do you, do you think that the world's ready to have confirmation of these visits?
- [55:10]
Richard Dolan
Well, I've been thinking about this one for a very long time. I mean, almost 20 years ago now, I co authored a book on, called After Disclosure. How, how could this information come out? And how would it, how would it transform our world if it did? And I've wondered about this for a long, long time. I think that. Well, first of all, one thing that we have to clarify is if there were a disclosure. So let's say some important person, the, the President of the United States or some other powerful person were to say, yes, there is a genuine UFO phenomenon, some of which does not come from our civilization, we have confirmation of that, something like that. There's all of these levels of discussion about this. You could just say we're aware that this phenomenon is here. That's really all that I can say to you. Have a good, have a good week, everyone. I'll get back to you when I can't like that. That's not going to go over very well. It would be very difficult to just give a little bit of disclosure. Maybe it would be possible, but I suspect it would be very difficult to do. And so now you're in a position of deciding how much, how much do you tell, do you tell the world that this is a phenomenon that goes on every single day in every part of the world that we have no control over? Because that is, that is the case. And do you tell people that these abductions are maybe happening? Are you able, do you have such knowledge that they're happening? Do you have, do you want to tell the world where your facilities are that are studying alien technology? Because that's a whole thing. And how far do you go? Do you tell the people that, oh, well, there are reports of beings that look just like us, but they're not like us. They can read your mind. There's a lot of those cases. Are they true? Some people think that we've just about
- [57:01]
Simon Bown
run out of time. I've got so much more to talk to you about.
- [57:06]
Richard Dolan
This is always the way when I, when I'm with you. I just really enjoy our conversations very much.
- [57:12]
Simon Bown
Simon well, we were talking about your book A History of USOs, Unidentified Submerged Objects Volume 2 from 1970 to 1989. And that's how now people can get it everywhere.
- [57:24]
Richard Dolan
I suppose Amazon is the easiest way. I don't think it'll be in your local bookstore, but you can order it on Amazon and it's available as an expensive hardcover, almost as expensive and not super expensive paperback, a cheap ebook and a very affordable audiobook. So you can make your pick. The hardcover is expensive because I really wanted to go all out with high quality color illustrations which are beautiful and really do add a lot to the book. And I mean it's not outrageously expensive. It's just a bit more pricey than I would like. The paperback is, I think retails for US$39. So it's a little up there. They're 400 page books and I try to pack a lot of, a lot of information into them. So they're on Amazon or you can link from my website, which is Richard Dolan members.com people can go there too.
- [58:16]
Simon Bown
Well, thanks a lot for coming on a podcast.
- [58:19]
Richard Dolan
It was my pleasure entirely. So thank you for having me here.
- [58:24]
Simon Bown
And that was an interview with Richard Dolan about his book A History of unidentified submerged objects, volume two from 1970 to 1989. My book, which is titled Aspects of Alien Abduction is available on Amazon and you can get on paperback, audiobook or Kindle. And I have a new website, it's called SimonBown.com that's Bown, not Brown. On that website you can get information on my podcasts, my books and past life progression. And if you enjoy this podcast, please leave a review and be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or via your favorite podcast app to make sure that you don't miss out on any episodes. And thanks for listening.