Adam Savage (4:01)

O.

Steve Burns (4:01)

And he's. He's here. Okay. Hello, Adam Savage.

Adam Savage (4:07)

Hello, Steve. That was the most wonderful introduction. Thank you.

Steve Burns (4:11)

It was all apartment And I was keeping it chill, actually, because you really are. They say, don't meet your heroes. I hope this goes well, is this the set? Is this tested? Is that it right there?

Adam Savage (4:30)

We're in the. I guess this would be the west half of my shop. Yeah. This used to be a display area lined with billy bookcases from IKEA and filled with my collection. Back in 2022, Industrial Light and Magic closed down the last of its original buildings, and I took in some of the model making, shelving full of the greeblies they used to build spaceships, because I thought, let me just keep all this stuff together. And then this became an extension of the shop, which is spectacular, and it has afforded a much more. A much better flow in terms of those builds that I do untested and the ways in which we film here.

Steve Burns (5:11)

Okay, I have questions on Mythbusters. You know, there was kind of a Bert Niernie vibe with you and Jamie Hyneman, and you were, I believe, in my heart, largely playing a role of this mercurial force of nature to his sort of stoic, rigid scrutiny. Right. But then I'm looking around that shop, which looks to me a little chaotic, but I know that it's not. I know that you know where every wing nut, delta nozzle is in every single one of those drawers back there. I know that you know that. So you have both sides, I think, Right. You're both the mercurial person who is led by their sense of joy and anticipation and curiosity. But you also have the strict methodology side. Right.

Adam Savage (6:09)

It's true. They both exist simultaneously. And, you know. Yeah. By the same token, I can be completely full of crap in one sense.

Steve Burns (6:19)

Right. Oh, me too.

Adam Savage (6:20)

We.

Steve Burns (6:21)

We don't. We get started, man, you'll hear it.

Adam Savage (6:25)

You know, I actually think of that combination as a really, like a lucky happenstance of my brain.

Steve Burns (6:31)

Yeah.

Adam Savage (6:32)

The. The rigor and the. The enjoyment of tedium, which is, again, when I say enjoyment of tedium, I don't mean that it's fun in the middle of it. Tedious stuff is tedious for me like it is for anybody else. But I can be in the middle of it and know where I'm going and feel really secure in that space and the ability to dive into that. Okay, just do it one more time, even though you've done it five times already. Okay, do it a hundredth time, even though you've done it 99 times. The ability to sit with that tedium, honestly, might be the engine of everything else I've achieved. Right. Because it gives me this foundation to have a place like this where it's visually cacophonous but you're right. I know where everything is. And right now, there's, like, 12 syringes full of lapping compound, which I cannot find, and it's making me nuts for a couple of years.

Steve Burns (7:21)

Oh, my God. Adam. Same.

Adam Savage (7:23)

Same.

Steve Burns (7:24)

I have no idea where my lapping compound is. We were just talking about that. It's so frustrating. Yeah. Those two sides are so essential. It's. It's something. The older I get, the more I realize that the chocolate and peanut butter of that is an important governing dynamic for most things. Like. Like, I. I look at it like a boat. Right.

Adam Savage (7:47)

You.

Steve Burns (7:48)

You need a sailor. And that sale is energy and inspiration and ideals and crazy ideas and your curiosity and all of your passion. But you also need a rudder, or you're just going to go around in circles. Right.

Adam Savage (8:05)

Sometimes that rudder is your boss. It's your supervisor. Right. It's your teacher. It's someone who's helping you stay on track. And I've had plenty of employees who've worked for me with no executive skills, and I provide the structure. I feel very lucky that both came to four in my own brain.

Steve Burns (8:26)

Yeah, I think we're all very lucky that Both came to 4 in your. In that way. Okay, let's get a little bit into mythbusters, because this is my favorite show. For anyone who hasn't seen it, I can't believe there's anyone who doesn't know what you did on mythbusters, but the conceit was you would take an urban legend or a myth and you would run it through a specific methodology. Right. And the idea is you were looking for one of three results. Something could be confirmed, it could be busted, or it could be plausible. I'll use an example of my very favorite episode. I'm sure everyone does this to you, and everyone expresses their favorite episode, but the myth was, oh, that went over like a lead balloon. And y' all were like, imma make a lead balloon and see if. If that's a thing. And you guys spoiler you. Not only did you do it, but it was such a beautiful object. Like, as an object, it was. It belonged in the Whitney. It was remarkable. Talk to me about the methodology, the terms confirmed, busted, and plausible and what they actually mean within your methodology.

Adam Savage (9:49)

So busted and confirmed showed up fully formed. When the production company showed up to film the pilots, the idea that a myth would be busted or confirmed, I added plausible. Plausible came out of. Came out of my own sense of humor, which is in my experience, I was really good at getting stuff Done. But when someone would say, can you get that done? I would not say, yes, I would say that is totally plausible. This was my way of sort of enjoying the fact that the universe is totally uncertain. It ends up being the most common adjudication of myths. Was more plausible than anything else. But at the same time, the freedom that plausible gave us to thread the needle of, okay, we've shown this is possible, but we can't find a legitimate first person account, so we can't say confirmed. We can say plausible. It was a great way of framing knowledge as to what you've got in front of you. So I think it's great that most things weren't one thing or the other. They were somewhere in a liminal space between those two poles. That's what plausible is.

Steve Burns (11:09)

Yes. And plausible. I. It doesn't surprise me that although I didn't know this until you said it, it doesn't surprise me that most of the myth and urban legends and idiomatic phrases. Yeah. Were plausible. Right. I'm looking to apply what you guys did and apply it to misinformation because. Because, you know, an urban legend, a myth that's sort of like a proto meme in a way. Right. It's, it's, it's a, it's a story. It's a concept that may be more satisfying to hear than it is evident.

Adam Savage (11:55)

And I don't even think it's plausibly a meme. I think they are all. They are the same memes are one of the ways we're currently shaping and understanding the shape of our world with each other. Yeah, they are way. They're, they're a mode of communication. And I had a lot of time, over 14 years of making the show to think about urban legends and why they propagate. And they propagate. They propagate for the same reason that I loved making the show, because people love a great story about why stuff happens. Yeah, we want a great story and we want the counter. We want the story that's the one that's the most interesting version. That's totally a human. A human trait. I think also when it comes to disinformation and conspiracy theories, I think one of my side theories has been that people in a state of desperation want to believe that someone is in charge. And thus a conspiracy is actually semi reassuring. Right. Yeah, 100%, you know, in that, like, well, someone could affect, change some. This, this is feasible when the reality is, you know, evil is completely and always has been as banal as banal. Gets. I want to tell you that it was actually almost two years before we realized we were officially making a science show. There was a moment a couple of years in when I realized, wow, we are really just using the scientific method as a narrative flowchart.

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Gemma Sprague (13:42)

Yeah.

Steve Burns (13:43)

And at the core of it is their patented OS1 peptide, which is the first ingredient ever proven to target senescent cells, which are the cause of wrinkliness and loss of elasticity and crepiness. And I don't want to be creepy. And those results have now been validated in five different studies. And what's even better is One Skin also just launched their limited edition holiday sets, including the nightly Rewind gift set, which includes all sorts of amazing stuff and is both impressive and genuinely useful. So for a limited time, try One Skin for 15% off using code ALIVE at One Skin Co Alive. That's 15% off using code Alive at Oneskin Co Alive. And after you purchase, they'll ask where you heard about them. So please support our show. Tell them we sent you. Okay, so it happened. The holidays are here. The holiday season is upon us right now, and that can be a little stressful. I don't know about you. I tend to wait to the last minute to shop. But Uncommon Goods takes the stress out of gifting with thousands of unique, high quality finds that you won't see anywhere else. And again, not to stress you out, but you probably shouldn't wait too long because all the good stuff does tend to get scooped up fast. In fact, I saw this one thing on there that I'm definitely getting for my friend's kid. It's like a little handheld video gaming system, but it lets you invent and create your own video game. How cool is that? If I was 9, I would freak out for that. If I was 39, I would freak out for that. It's pretty awesome. They totally do have something for everyone, from moms and dads, kids, teens, book lovers, football fans, foodies, mixologists. If you're a gardener, they do have stuff for for everyone. But the cool thing is when you shop at Uncommon Goods, you're supporting artists and small businesses, and they give $1 back for every purchase to a non profit partner of your choice. Which is rad, right? They've already raised like $3 million. It's. They're fantastic. So don't wait. Cross those names off your list before the rush takes. To get 15% off your next gift, go to UncommonGoods.com alive that's UncommonGoods.com alive for 15% off. Uncommon Goods. We're all out of the ordinary this holiday season. Give the gift of epic sound with JLab. So I don't know if you're shopping for a music enthusiast like me or a fitness enthusiast or a podcast enthusiast. Sound matters. We're constantly listening to media through headphones and how it Sounds Matters and JLab has you covered. They've got the JBuds Lux, the over ears with great noise canceling and something like 70 hours of playtime and then they've got the JBuds pods with 56 hours of play of playtime and they also have noise canceling. So look for the blue box at retailers everywhere or shop just jlab.com and use code alive for 15 off your order today. This is why it's brilliant though, in, in, in my opinion, because we know how sticky stories are, right? We know that, that we are conditioned to absorb an internalized story at the expense of fact if need be, right? I read somewhere that a story is something like 22 times more memorable than bare facts, right? And you're presenting the facts through this hero's journey, you know, and it just makes it so much stickier. And I wonder, I wonder what you think about this. I think we're sort of at this point hyper conditioned for narrative since the radio really. I mean we've always, we've always been prone to absorb story. That, that's, that's been the way we've parsed our universe forever. Since the campfire. But then the campfire became a radio and then the radio became a television and then we stopped testing and busting these myths in reality so much and just stayed inside and listened and just fire hosed stories and narratives into our br. And then movies and TV and just the explosion of media that now lives in our pocket that we're now addicted to. I think we have conditioned ourselves in large part to only accept narrative as reality in a way.

Adam Savage (18:47)

Look, story is I think one of the most important human things. Things there is. I think it's one of the, I think it's how we pass knowledge down from the very beginning. The first story is like this sharp stick. If we Hide behind the thing as together we can run for days and we can stop these things much bigger than us and we can eat for us for a winter. Those are facts in a linear, in a linear structure. And I think you're right. I don't even. I'm not sure that we're addicted to stories, but I think they're innate in the way our brains function. And because of that we're hugely. We're just as vulnerable to stories as we are, as we are benefited by them.

Steve Burns (19:33)

Yeah, yeah, 100%. You say that, you know, that that story passes down knowledge, but it can also pass down misinformation. You know, this is what you're saying, we're vulnerable to it as well, you know, and, and if something, if something doesn't stand, critical thinking, the scientific process, you know, rigorous scrutiny, is it knowledge, you know, and this is where I want to get into plausibility of those three adjudicating factors. Right. I think, I think we understand confirmed. I think we understand busted. But plausibility, I feel like, is the one where we get into trouble, where we get ourselves into trouble. It's the hat moment that makes a crack just big enough that we can fill it with all our confirmation bias. We can fill it with all of our prior assumptions and assume that it is good enough to be true. It's actionably true to me because I find its plausibility pleasant and it confirms my bias.

Adam Savage (20:42)

So I want to speak to this because I'll reframe plausibility as existing within a space of both knowing and not knowing. It is existing in a space where you have an imperfect amount of information from which you can draw some conclusions, but they are not conclusive, as it were.

Steve Burns (21:03)

There you go.

Adam Savage (21:04)

And I think every artist knows and spends much of their lives in that space, works hard to spend time in that space of not knowing because really remarkable stuff can happen in there. But we work and live in late stage capitalism. And your boss doesn't give two craps about whether you know or don't know. They want, they want yes or no, right? Within, within the business environment, a plausible is like, no, no, no, no, no. I need to know it's yes or no, that it's no. And there's very much within the American workplace not a lot of room for like, well, we'll figure it out when we get there. Not to say that there aren't businesses in which that's a terrible approach to the plan, but I've also worked for a lot of, you know, when I've worked for bad bosses. It's because they had specific outcomes they were looking for and they didn't care how they happened and whether, you know, abuse on their staff or, you know, whatever. There's a tension between the ways in which we live our lives within this current system and within the way the human mind works. I think the human mind does best when it spends a lot of time in that not knowing space, in that liminal space. But it's an uncomfortable place to be.

Steve Burns (22:32)

Yeah, for sure. Like, demonstrably uncomfortable. No one wants to be there. People. People will take what is obviously plausible, which is. How did you say it? Which is a state of knowing and unknowing simultaneously. That sounds like most of life to me. And. But people will take that plausibility and they will just run with it as fact. Right. That. That's what we're seeing more and more of. And it kind of freaks me out, you know, the. The degree to which people will say, well, I don't know this, but it could be true. So I'm going with it as if it is, because I prefer that and it makes me feel good. And I think that's a dangerous thing. How does plausibility relate to falsifiability?

Adam Savage (23:22)

Hmm. That's a really wonderful question. I mean, I want to change this and talk about debating a bad faith debater.

Steve Burns (23:31)

Okay.

Adam Savage (23:32)

Because I was a late adult when I realized if I don't understand somebody, it's mostly their fault, not my fault. Right. You've met people who, like, when you're young and you're like, 20, and someone comes up and they're like. And you're like, wow. I guess. I guess they're working on some wavelength I don't understand. And in my 50s, I'm like, no, they're not. They're just full of shit.

Steve Burns (23:53)

Yes, yes, yes.

Adam Savage (23:57)

Yeah. So when you debate a bad faith debater, they go at you for, like, really specific facts. Well, what about what happened in 1978? Right? They. The kind of thing of, like, neither human in any debate can hold all the facts at their disposal at once. But we live in this kind of current debate culture where people, you know, where if someone doesn't have a direct answer to a direct question, it's like, I destroyed them. Yeah. And nothing could be farther from the truth for the building of actual knowledge. I was giving a talk a few years ago where I finished with this model of the universe. And really late in the talk, I don't know about you, but I always come up with my last and first rhetorical flourishes. At the very last second, I'm writing a talk. And the last one was, this isn't a model of our universe. It's the biggest, best assemblage of all the stories we have currently assembled about our universe.

Steve Burns (24:56)

Yeah.

Adam Savage (24:56)

And any one of those could change with new data tomorrow.

Steve Burns (25:00)

Yeah.

Adam Savage (25:00)

I think it is easy to weaponize people's fear of the unknown, of. I don't know, as an answer. And so they want people who know all the answers.

Steve Burns (25:13)

Yes.

Adam Savage (25:14)

And that. That makes them vulnerable to a demagogue that claims to have all the answers, because nobody has all the answers and everyone's an idiot.

Steve Burns (25:22)

All of us. I agree with all of that. I keep a bust of Socrates back here because I love the story of that guy who went up to the oracle and he was like, hey, who's the smartest dude? And the oracle was like, you are. And he's like, that can't be true. They're like, no, you're the smartest dude because you know that you don't know. You know. And I've always loved that story. I was like, that is an excellent posture from which to gather information.

Adam Savage (25:58)

Yep.

Steve Burns (25:59)

Why do you think people are so uncomfortable with uncertainty? And why aren't you? You seem to embrace it. You seem to jump into it.

Adam Savage (26:10)

I'm just as uncomfortable as anybody else. And again, I think that there's a lot of ways in which our current culture, our late stage capitalism, a phrase I use way too much, engenders just that kind of fear. And I've had decades of experience of staying in a space of not knowing, benefiting me professionally. That's. That's. That's like that. It's a muscle that I've been able to build.

Steve Burns (26:40)

I keep coming back to the methodology of both Mythbusters and Tested. It really is about taking something that is, if not a belief is an assumption or a commonly held assumption, testing it before drawing a conclusion. Right. And within that conclusion, you have, as you say, three adjudicating principles. It can be. Yeah, that's real. Yeah, that's busted. Or there's some evidence that it could be, but it's inconclusive. Right. How do we apply that to beliefs before we share them, before we. Before we drop them into the information maelstrom of the global interweb? What I'm looking for, what I want, what I've always wanted, is like a Batman utility belt full of things to do to kind of test a proposition before I decide whether or not I believe that. And that's going to be more and more and more and more and more and more and more important moving forward. Right. It's already hard to tell what's real when we're looking at it on our phone. It can be hard for people to know if the med bed is real for some people and like it. Misinformation, AI, all of this is thundering forward at an exponential pace, and I feel like we need the Batman utility belt.

Adam Savage (28:24)

You know, I'll say you said something. You said a phrase there on your phone. I mean, the answer. Look, what we're really talking about, I think, is cultural biases, the ways in which cultural biases can harm each other. And the answer to that to me is it seems pretty evident from looking at maps of the United States where cities, when you put people in a tight space, they tend to both tolerate and appreciate each other more. And when you separate them and the only way they talk to each other is through their phones or through their Internet, they can build much greater biases against each other. And it's very upsetting.

Steve Burns (29:14)

Yeah, I've often said, you know, part of the whole point of doing this and everything that I want to do is about reminding me and everyone that there's a human being on the other side of that screen. And always. And that person has a human soul. And that person is just as complex and screwed up and awesome and weird as you are. And there's got to be a way. There's got to be a way to humanize exactly what we're doing. Right.

Adam Savage (29:45)

The way we counter biases collectively, that's the thing. It's collective. And, you know, we live in a country where the third space, the local pub, is like disappearing. Bowling leagues are going away. I feel like the balm for so much of this is putting people back in contact with each other.

Steve Burns (30:11)

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Julia Louis-Dreyfus (33:10)

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Steve Burns (34:41)

Last topic here. I know at the beginning of Mythbusters, you guys used to have whole segments about urban legends.

Adam Savage (34:48)

Right?

Steve Burns (34:48)

There was even like a mythologist that was on.

Adam Savage (34:52)

Yes. Heather. Heather Wickham.

Steve Burns (34:54)

Yeah. And I, for a long time was an urban legend. And right, everyone, the Internet, when the Internet was just beginning to Internet, it decided that I died of. Of some horrible, you know, some list of horrible ways that I either crashed a car or committed suicide or that I died of a heroin overdose. And it was so demonstrably untrue, I was literally making my more television that it was almost funny. But, you know, the story goes like, after a while, it starts to feel like, oh, is this what people would prefer? Like, why are people preferring this story to an obvious reality? Yeah. Did I do something wrong? Is, you know, am I supposed to be like, what. What is going on here? And what I can say is that that urban legend, that urban myth that became indelible in my life had real consequences for me. Eventually. It had. It had actual effects on me.

Adam Savage (35:57)

Yeah.

Steve Burns (35:58)

And I used to sort of fantasize, like, I just want the mythbusters to show up. They're like my rescue team. They can show up with like a blood pressure machine and like some simple medical diagnostic stuff and test whether or.

Adam Savage (36:17)

Not and watching react to it.

Steve Burns (36:19)

Yes, exactly. And we could go through this in. It wouldn't even be an A segment. Like, it could be a really small interstitial segment and just prove to everyone that I was alive. And that sense of not being able to assert truth against a sea of misinformation, I think feels very familiar to people right now because to me, it feels like. It feels like the truth is very much a vibe. And I don't think that truth is a vibe. And I look to you and I look to Jamie as sort of heroes of critical thinking and heroes of sort of embracing that as a joyful strategy to meet the uncertainty. And I'm wondering, what is the future of truth as we move through this digital moment that we're in, of disinformation and misinformation? I'm wondering what you think we can do. Is there a way to, like, micro bust all of these little mythy memes that we encounter on the.

Adam Savage (37:29)

No.

Steve Burns (37:29)

Okay.

Adam Savage (37:30)

All right.

Steve Burns (37:31)

I'll see you later.

Adam Savage (37:31)

No, I don't think so. I think there's too many, too fast, it's been too weaponized, and it's too efficient. But I also think, again, I redound to community as the greatest balm for bias. I've been doing this talk over the last few years about the origins of measuring things, the science of metrology, and the most astounding thing that I concluded, and I didn't understand this when I started writing this talk, I've only understood it after giving the talk a few times, is that the most shocking thing of the past 15 years is that the world has worked because a lot of people were agreeing to be polite. And when a concentrated group of people decide to not be polite, they can harm stuff in an abiding way and quickly. And that's shocking, right? It's the same with measurement. There is no such thing as a measurement. Every measurement that's adjudicated on any piece of scientific equipment has a temperature at which that measurement is to be adjudicated. It's usually 20 degrees Celsius or 59 degrees Fahrenheit, but it's only true at that temperature. So the thing we think of as a saleable fact there is, which is like, how long is this pencil? I can give you three answers right now with a blow dryer. I can change its size with measuring equipment I possess by heating it up or cooling it down. And thus, measurement two, and the measuring of everything in the world and how we collaborate on making things like LIGO or the James Webb Space Telescope, all work because we've agreed to collaborate under the same circumstances. And again, I resound that community is the greatest enemy of bias that there can be. And you can build beautiful biases in the community, too. But it has both abilities. Jesus.

Steve Burns (39:25)

Whoa. Can you say more specifically about that? You say community is sort of the antidote to. Is an antidote to bias.

Adam Savage (39:32)

I think diverse communities in the same way. I think it's. Mark Twain said that travel is toxic to bigotry. I mean, bring something very specific there right in that if you meet a lot of people from a lot of different places, it makes it a lot harder to make snap judgments or to hate them.

Steve Burns (39:49)

Yeah. Where do you think all this is going to, Adam? Where do you think? What's your take on the future of truth?

Gemma Sprague (39:55)

Where.

Steve Burns (39:55)

Where are we headed as it relates to beliefs being confirmed or busted or deemed plausible?

Adam Savage (40:03)

I. I like history. I read. I read a bunch of history. Like a lot of dudes in their late 50s.

Steve Burns (40:09)

Yeah.

Adam Savage (40:11)

And I find some. Sometimes I think back on the screeds that washing Washington. George Washington famously had a cabinet full of people who despised each other. Mm. And they worked actively against each other while in his cabinet writing anonymous screeds against each other within his cabinet. And when you look at them and you read some of them and the things they are calling each other make some of what's being written today seem semi tame. So I'm reminded that polemicization is cyclical. I feel like it is cyclical. I feel like in the 20th century, we watch the New Deal come in and the 1960s and 70s come in and, you know, I look at those arcs and I think that there will be a shift back towards a more egalitarian normalcy. I hope that is within five years instead of 10 or 15 years. But it could be a whole generation before we are agreeing to work together on some common version where everyone benefits. The only thing about my politics is that I just don't think anybody is different from anybody else. Don't get me wrong. I understand that all human beings are unique and different. But I value and want a society and a culture in which everybody has the exact same opportunities available to them from the benefits of this culture. And it pains me that we solved world hunger. World hunger. How to produce enough calories cheaply enough for the whole world. We solved that decades ago. The only reason there are still hungry people is because it's profitable. And that causes my soul pain. And I hope that I will be alive long enough to witness a world in which that's not the case.

Steve Burns (42:10)

Yeah. Same. What about as it relates specifically to. To misinformation. And the kind of technologies that we are jumping headfirst into, cannonballing into that are just so full of dis and misinformation. Deepfakes, AI. What can we do?

Adam Savage (42:31)

You know, it's so hard because it's so difficult because we've decimated all of our local news to such a degree and consolidated local news outlets to a degree. That's really difficult to recover from. I have a friend whose theory about this is, first Craigslist, then fascism. And he's like, craigslist eliminated the golden goose for local newspapers. They were. Their profit margins were astounding. Before Craigslist, the classified ads was a spectacular money train. And when we got rid of that, we got rid of. Yeah, we got rid of the main. I haven't researched this theory. I'm repeating what my friend Ben says, so I could be totally wrong about some of this, but, like, we need to get back to local coverage of local issues. You know, one of the. It's one of the things I miss most about old Twitter is that, as someone pointed out, it is one of the. It was one of the only things in the world where you could talk about global politics, but also type, what was that noise? And get a response to either one of those things.

Steve Burns (43:39)

Well, this is what I want, Adam. This is. This is how I want the world to work. I want to see a claim on the global interweb that seems sketchy to me. And I want you and the mythbusters to arrive in that moment, and I want you to say, aha. Let's test this belief before you share it, Steve. Let your post pass through these gates, right? Like, is this true? Is it busted, or is it plausible? Let's design some tests for it. Let's put this through our methodology. But I want that to happen every time. So if you guys, you know, maybe you could make an app or a filter that we can just apply.

Adam Savage (44:29)

I want to sing the praises of YouTube right now, specifically because, like, four or five years ago, a YouTuber reached out because they were doing. They were replicating one of our stories, and they wanted some advice. And in the past five years, I've appeared on at least three other YouTube channels doing stories that we had done on Mythbusters. And it's been. It's been building. The periodicity is getting closer and closer, and I realized in my head, oh, wow. Eventually, YouTube creators will replicate Mythbusters entire canon and also carry it forward.

Steve Burns (45:02)

Oh, yeah, that would be great. I want to make the crossbow. This man made a crossbow out of newspaper. That. That was not only a functional crossbow, it was frightening and legitimately lethal. And I think you made it out of a little bit of elastic and newspaper, and that was it. Oh, my God. There it is. Look at that thing. Oh, it's scary.

Adam Savage (45:29)

One of my favorite objects I ever made on the show.

Steve Burns (45:32)

It's scary.

Adam Savage (45:35)

It's 100 made out of newspaper and gelatin as its binding glue. And my crew called it. You'll love this. They called it the dream catcher.

Steve Burns (45:46)

Yeah, that's fair. That's fair, right?

Adam Savage (45:51)

And you'll appreciate this. The question was asked, how are we going to make something out of newspaper when we can't show any ads for anything else on television? And my solution was a Chinese newspaper.

Steve Burns (46:06)

Hey, Perfect. That thing is beautiful, dude. Look at that. You've made some really beautiful objects, you know, like, and I don't know that that was ever part of what you were trying to do, but, like, sometimes it's like, damn, that is so cool. Oh, my God. This is a dream come true. I'm literally living a dream right now. This is awesome.

Adam Savage (46:28)

So not only did I get to make some surpassingly gorgeous objects, I was quoting some of my favorite artists. So I love Jasper Johns, mid century abstract expressionist, Big flags, big targets. And Jamie and I were doing a story about, can you shoot a gun out of someone's hand?

Steve Burns (46:46)

Oh, yeah.

Adam Savage (46:46)

And we did the math, and we figured out that I could build an aluminum gun with a target. It would be about the same mass transfer as a bullet hitting a hand handgun. And so I made this.

Steve Burns (46:57)

That is very Jasper Johns. Look at that thing. That is gorgeous. Yeah.

Adam Savage (47:01)

It's a single piece of aluminum with a gun butt screwed to it. That's it.

Steve Burns (47:05)

Yeah.

Adam Savage (47:05)

But, like, this might be maybe my favorite object out of all 14 years of making the show. It's just so absurd and delightful.

Steve Burns (47:12)

Oh, my God. Can I tell you, like, and then I'll let you go. But a dear, dear friend of mine, Jeremy, who you met, my producer, I think it was for my. I think it was for my 40th birthday or something. I had a huge party, and he showed up in a white Tyvek suit with goggles, four banana cream pies, and a catapult that he had made. And this thing was beautiful. It was fantastic. And we had. I had four chances to hit him in the face with this catapult. And the first one went over his head. Second one landed, like, right at his feet. Third one over his shoulder, and the fourth one hit him square in the face and slid down. And it was one of the most perfect events that ever occurred in my life. And the object itself was so beautiful that I kept it, even though we broke it the next day, trying to shoot everything in the world off of it.

Adam Savage (48:14)

But of course, of course. Adam Savage.

Steve Burns (48:18)

This was a fantastic experience for me. I really, really enjoyed talking to you. I've Always wanted to do it. You're just as wicked and badass and brilliant as I hoped you would be. And I really appreciate your perspective on all of this, and I really think you're doing something great out there in the world by making deductive reasoning and the scientific method so full of play and so full of joy and rigor. At the same time, I think. I think you're an excellent boat with an excellent sail and rudder. And thank you so much for talking to us, man.

Adam Savage (49:01)

I want to say one thing about working scientists, which was. As an artist in many different mediums, I am constantly bombarded with people who think that the one medium they know is, without a doubt, the best medium there is to work in. I always find that hilarious when somebody thinks that that's their jam. But I. In the whole course of Mythbusters, we worked with so many working scientists, and to the last, every single one of them loved what they did and was involved in their work and having a real life satisfaction from doing that work. That's the thing I love passing on to young people is that, like, science isn't an avocation. It's not like, bang, I'm struck by lightning, and I've got the mark, and that'll make me a great scientist. It's a vocation, and it's just a vocation for the. For the mildly curious, up to the intense and incredibly crazy curious. But, you know, over any other kind of employment, working scientists were among the happiest people that I got to spend time with.

Steve Burns (50:10)

Oh, that makes me happy, actually. That makes me happy. See, the scientific process and. And testing your hypothesis before asserting your belief makes you happy.

Adam Savage (50:23)

And I say that understanding that the whole edifice is under attack right now. I get it. Yes. I'm aware of what's happening in the world.

Steve Burns (50:30)

Oh, Adam, I wish I could keep.

Adam Savage (50:32)

You on the air. It has been such a pleasure to talk to you, too. I have been looking forward to this since you pinged me from my friend Max Keiserman's phone, and I really hope that you can get here to San Francisco and come visit the cave so we can continue this conversation.

Steve Burns (50:49)

You say that, and now it's going to happen. Now I'm going to.

Adam Savage (50:52)

Let's do it.

Steve Burns (50:53)

I'm going to leave this interview and head to San Francisco. Adam, thank you so much. We'll talk to you soon. All right, bye.

Adam Savage (50:59)

All right.

Steve Burns (51:02)

Well, that was very exciting for me. Literally, my favorite show. That was so cool. We. We got to see the crossbow. I mean.

Adam Savage (51:10)

All right.

Steve Burns (51:11)

Okay. Anyway, I wrote a bunch of stuff down that was fascinating. First thing I wrote down is that our brains prefer story over facts, like innately. And that's both good and bad. We definitely benefit from the stories that we tell, but they can also leave us very vulnerable to misinformation. Plausibility is living in both knowing and not knowing at the same time, and that's an uncomfortable place to be. That made sense to me. And I think because it's so uncomfortable to be there, it's very tempting to rush toward something being totally busted or totally confirmed, even though you might not have sufficient evidence to make either claim. That makes sense. And last thing I wrote down is we can't bust every myth. There's simply too many, and they come at us too fast.

Adam Savage (52:24)

Yeah.

Steve Burns (52:26)

Well, let's go outside. So we know that our brains innately prefer stories over bare facts, especially when those stories reassure us or confirm our biases or provide us with a sense of certainty, because the state of not knowing is very uncomfortable, and certainty feels great. So that makes a form of sense to me. I can see why people would prefer not to have their myth busted in some cases, because they'd rather live inside of it. Right. But that seems fraught to me. Risky, even. What do you think? What are the risks of asserting a belief before testing it against reality?

Adam Savage (53:43)

Huh?

Steve Burns (53:44)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks for coming by. Thanks for listening. Thanks for hanging out. This really does mean a lot to me. And you look. You look good. You do pretty out here. Foreign. With Steve Burns is a Lemonade Media original. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now's the perfect time. You can listen to the show completely ad free, plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content from me as I reflect on this episode. Just press subscribe on Apple podcasts. Head to lemonadepremium.com to subscribe on any other app or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. That's lemonadapremium.com Alive is hosted by me, Steve Burns, and produced by Jeremy Slutskin. Our editor is Christopher Champion Morgan. Our associate producer is Akshaz Tharabailu. Audio engineering by James Sparber. Lemonada's SVP of weekly programming is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Jessica Cordova Kramer, Stephanie Whittles, Wax and me. We'll see you next week. And you look great, by the way.

Gemma Sprague (55:21)

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Adam Savage (56:19)

You know when you're just going about your busy day and a voice asks you something like why do people have crushes?

Steve Burns (56:26)

Or do dogs know their dogs?

Adam Savage (56:28)

The Brainzon podcast is here to help. Every episode answers tough questions with funny skits, cool facts, and more. It's a science show for kids of all ages.

Steve Burns (56:38)

Whether you grew up with jfk, mtv.

Adam Savage (56:41)

Tlc, or tmz, Brainson is for you. Listening may induce uncontrollable laughter and turn backseat squabbles into harmonious car trips. Find Brainson Wherever you get your podcasts.