Behind the Blue Curtain: A Peek Into the Making of Blue’s Clues and Its legacy

Summary

Alive with Steve Burns

Episode: “Behind the Blue Curtain: A Peek Into the Making of Blue’s Clues and Its Legacy”
Date: March 4, 2026
Host: Steve Burns (Lemonada Media)
Guests: Angela C. Santomero & Tracy Paige Johnson (Co-creators of Blue's Clues)

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EPISODE OVERVIEW

This nostalgic, warm, and candid episode honors the 30th anniversary of the iconic children’s TV show Blue’s Clues. Steve Burns brings on Angela C. Santomero and Tracy Paige Johnson—the show's creators—to reflect on how Blue’s Clues was conceived, its radical innovations in children’s programming, and the unique chemistry between its creators. The discussion explores the loving, research-driven design of the show, its educational impact, inside stories of its development, interactivity innovations, and its lasting emotional resonance with generations of viewers.

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KEY DISCUSSION POINTS & INSIGHTS

The Genesis of Blue’s Clues

[05:48] Angela’s Nickelodeon Roots and the Need for a Signature Show

• Angela was working in Nickelodeon research and recognized the need for a flagship Nick Jr. show, aiming to blend child development principles with playful, gamified educational content.
• Early on, the idea: a “hide and seek” type of show resembling a game but focused on learning and interaction.

[06:47] Tracy Joins: From Reading Rainbow to Blue’s Clues

• Tracy had a background in children's TV (Reading Rainbow) and was skilled in art and animation.
• Both Angela and Tracy had game-based, interactive ideas; their first brainstorm included drawings (and even prototype games about finding pizza).

[07:46] Building the Collaborative Team

• Their creative connection was instant, bonding over three-hour idea sessions.
• Tracy sent Angela a drawing of herself with a million ideas spilling from her head: “Which nobody would do right now…” (Angela, [08:00]).

[08:25] Steve’s Initial Feelings of Impostor Syndrome

• Steve expresses constant awe at the meticulous educational research behind the show.
• “I was always so impressed really with just how well the show was scaffolded and researched... I just felt like I was in great hands educationally...” ([08:44]).

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Science, Research, and Radical Design

[09:35] The Most Demonstrably Educational Show?

• Angela describes their ongoing use of formative research:
  • If something didn’t “stick” with kids, they would fix it before airing.
  • Longitudinal studies: Kids who watched Blue’s Clues scored significantly higher in kindergarten readiness.
  • Studies proved interactivity and repetition were key to learning.

[10:55] Steve’s Audition and “Happy Accident”

• Steve thought he was auditioning for off-screen voice work—almost missed his shot as host.
• His unique, unscripted approach made producers think, “What a weird person... That was strange. And I thought I didn’t get the job.” ([13:44])
• The creative “lightning in a bottle” was part accident, part brilliant matching of research, art, and performance.

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Production Stories & “Pulling Back the Curtain”

[33:04] The Scrappy, Low-Budget Pilot and DIY Spirit

• The pilot was shot for virtually nothing (“They gave us $5 to start…”), with staff doing each other’s makeup and lunches brought from home.
• Steve: “The pilot was shot not in a film studio at all... I would just melt after every take.” ([33:14])

[33:32] Technical and Environmental Hurdles

• Filming next to a church meant pausing every 15 minutes for bells to stop ringing.
• Makeup applied by whoever was available (“I had eyeliner on. I had lipstick on. I looked like I was about to head to the drag cabaret” – Steve, [34:26])

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Educational Innovation: The Power of the Pause & Parasocial Connection

[14:46] The Radical Pause

• Angela describes how “listening” to the child at home (the pause) was unscientific at first—just feeling it out, creating authentic space for kids to answer, rather than moving on.
• Steve: “My real job on that show was silence... My favorite was the silence.” ([14:46–16:11])

[16:58] Tracy on Connection

• “You just had that magic face and eyes... it really felt like you were seeing the kid and the kid felt listened to. Our audience felt listened to.” ([16:58])
• They see themselves as early “parasocial pioneers,” inventing the direct-to-audience intimacy later common on the Internet ([23:10]).

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Innovations in Interactivity and Impact

[24:33] ‘Anti-Television Television’: Kids Lead the Way

• Steve recounts his doubts about the pilot:
  • “I thought I looked ridiculous...it’s the Rocky Horror Children Show...if Nickelodeon picks this up—which they won’t...” ([24:33])
• Angela recalls testing setbacks:
  • “They hate it,” an executive told them after initial kid tests. But once the pilot was final, families were desperate to keep the VHS tapes.

[27:35] Radical Listening vs. Standard TV Hosting

• Steve: “What we did was listen to [the audience] and that was the thing that I think changed kids TV quite a bit.”

[31:42] Could Blue’s Clues be Pitched Today?

• Consensus: It would be hard to get greenlit again.
  • “They gave us $5 to start and left us in a room by ourselves. And no one thought it was going to work.” ([31:42])

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Influence of Mr. Rogers & Philosophy

[47:15] Blue’s Clues as a Reverent Homage to Mr. Rogers

• Angela: “That connection he had to camera was like nothing else...I knew that that helped me growing up.”
• The show’s slow transitions and silence directly inspired by Rogers’ “hand-holding” the viewer from scene to scene.

[49:25] Steve on Rogers’ Emotional Depth

• “There’s a lot of heavy to Fred Rogers. A lot, actually...I firmly believe that Fred Rogers is gonna be remembered as...a great teacher of human people.”

[50:26] Show Structure: The Rugby Shirt, Skidooing, and Ritual

• The green rugby shirt—suggested by Tracy as a nod to fruit stripe gum—echoes Rogers’ cardigan.
• “Skidooing” is a clear update of the trolley, inviting viewers into an imaginative world.

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Legacy, Leaving, and Life Lessons

[58:15] On the Message: Can You Really Do Anything?

• Steve wrestled with the literal phrasing:
  • “If you use your mind and take a step at a time, you can do anything that you want to do.”
  • Worried about over-promising, given preschoolers' literal minds.
• Angela: “...you need to believe at that age that you’re safe, that you’re trusted, that…if you want to do something, you can do it.” ([58:07])

[61:02] Favorite Moments & Characters

• Tracy and Angela share favorite episodes: “Washing Machine/Superhero” episode, “Outer Space,” “Story Time,” and “Snack Time.”
• Steve unexpectedly picks Mr. Salt as his favorite character, calling him “so good in the movie.”

[66:06] Lasting Warmth & Meaning

• Tracy: “Warm. It feels like a warm puppy light and just so happy. Like, I feel like we did it...Just feels so magical. I just feel lucky, too.”
• Angela: “It’s the same. I feel like the family that we made while we were making the show and the memories that we have, it’s like it all. It’s just as wonderful and warm as knowing that we impacted…”

[67:53] Steve on the Show’s Impact

• “Being the host of a children’s television show was never something I wanted to do, but my life became something much cooler than I had hoped for. I still don’t feel like qualified in any way to have been the host... But I’m just proud to have been associated, with something that was just such good tv.”
• On leaving the show, Steve admits he sometimes wishes he’d stayed longer, but ultimately finds perspective and gratitude.

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MEMORABLE QUOTES

• Angela, on ambition:

  "Right before we shot the pilot, I said, I hope you have your Emmy dress ready, because we're going to the Emmys.” ([04:16])

• Steve, on the show’s unlikeliness:

  “I have been a public face of the show for 30 frigging years now...people don't talk to you guys enough about it...people don't really understand that we were children when this show—like, when we invented this.” ([05:30])

• Steve, on the essence of the show:

  “The foundation…was this solid, unflappable respect for the mind of the preschooler. That is…the seed for every decision that ever happened on that show.” ([30:51])

• Tracy, on the signature Blue’s Clues pause:

  “You just had that magic face and eyes... it really felt like you were seeing the kid and the kid felt listened to. Our audience felt listened to.” ([16:58])

• Steve, on the accidental magic:

  “It really was like a little lightning in the bottle situation... it happened to work with an incredibly brilliant, solid educational foundation.” ([13:44])

• Steve, on warmth and gratitude:

  “My life became something much cooler than I had hoped for... But I'm just proud to have been associated, with something that was just such good tv.” ([67:53])

• Tracy, on legacy:

  “It just feels so magical. I just feel lucky, too, because, you know, it doesn't always happen. I just feel very, very lucky. Love you guys so, so much.” ([66:47])

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TIMESTAMPS FOR IMPORTANT SEGMENTS

• 00:55 – Blue’s Clues 30th anniversary nostalgia
• 05:48 – How Angela and Tracy came together at Nickelodeon
• 09:35 – Educational research and Harvard/longitudinal studies
• 14:46 – The power of the pause; inventing silence for interactivity
• 24:33 – Steve’s doubts and watching the pilot, “anti-television television”
• 31:33 – Would Blue’s Clues get made today?
• 33:04 – Memories of the first (low-budget!) pilot production
• 47:15 – Tribute to Mr. Rogers’ influence
• 58:15 – Steve questions the show’s core message (“you can do anything”)
• 61:02 – Favorite Blue’s Clues episodes
• 66:06 – How it feels to have created a multigenerational legacy

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FINAL REFLECTIONS

This episode is a love letter to the ambitious, research-driven, and deeply respectful approach that made Blue’s Clues unique. Through laughter, vulnerability, and sharp creative insight, Angela, Tracy, and Steve illuminate how the show’s enduring bond with audiences was forged by trust, experimentation, and belief in the intelligence of young kids—and the serendipity of young creators breaking all the rules.

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Notable Emotional Moment:
As Tracy describes her emotions about the show’s lasting impact, sunlight literally beams into her room ([67:06]), ending the episode on a literal and metaphorical note of warmth and joy.

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Compiled by an expert podcast summarizer. For those who grew up with Blue's Clues or wish to learn from its success, this conversation is both a comforting scrapbook and a creative masterclass.

Transcript

[Steve Burns]

Hello.

It is great to see you. Welcome to Alive. I made tea. Here you go. It's there if you want it.

[Akshay Tharabailu]

Okay.

[Steve Burns]

So can I ask you a question?

[Akshay Tharabailu]

All right.

[Steve Burns]

Awesome. What are you most proud of? Oh, okay. Awesome. Yeah, Right. For me, it's probably Blues Clues.

[Akshay Tharabailu]

Yeah.

[Steve Burns]

And I'm feeling particularly proud and particularly nostalgic this year, because this year blues clues turns 30, which is unfriend believable to me because 30 Years is not a TV show that feels like a mortgage or a whole ass human being or something. And to think that people still remember that show fondly and carry it with them is honestly kind of difficult sometimes for me to internalize or metabolize, you know? So I thought it would be really cool to lean into all of that. And so I had a conversation with the original gangsters themselves, the builders, the creators of Blue's Clues. I'm talking Angela C. Santomero and Tracy Paige Johnson's legends of children's television. And that was predictably awesome and fun and certainly very nostalgic. And I think we'll pull back the curtain on the show in ways that you might not expect. So check it out. I'll be here when you get back. And I can't wait to hear what you think.

[Akshay Tharabailu]

Okay.

[Steve Burns]

Today's guests are Angela Santomare and Tracy Paige Johnson, who are the two creative forces behind a children's television show from the mid-90s called Blue's Clues that I was involved with and I wrote bios for them. But it's, you know, Angela invented like all the kids TV in the last 30 years. It seems super y. The truly sublime Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood, which is just gorgeous and creative galaxy with Tracy Paige Johnson, who is blue. She drew blue. She. Never mind. She drew blue. She. She drew Blue's Clues and she's the voice of blue. And in fact, whenever I had to imagine blue on the blue screen, I simply imagine Tracy Paige Johnson. She's also the co creator of Gabby's Dollhouse, which is literally every little girl's favorite show right now. Anyway, they're here. Hi. Hello, ladies. It's good to see you both.

Hi, Steve.

[Angela C. Santomero]

So good to see you.

[Steve Burns]

So good to hear you.

And it's nice to, to, to hear you both and to see you both. And I wrote like a million questions down here, but I doubt we'll get to any of them. It's so awesome that you guys are here. And I was saying earlier that it's frigging insane to think that Blue's Clues is 30 years old this year. Is that wild? Is that wild? That's insane.

[Angela C. Santomero]

Oh, my God. It's insane that we're still talking about it too, right? That's so lovely.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah, I agree. Like, did you ever think, either of you, that we were making something this durable, that we were making something that was evergreen, that would be multi generational? Did you think that when you were conceiving of it?

I think Angela did.

[Angela C. Santomero]

I do. I wish we still had the email that I wrote during. Right before we shot the pilot, and I said, I hope you have your Emmy dress ready, because we're going to the Emmys shot. And then on the back of one of the chicks in the 101 game, I had Tracy write, one day, this will be worth millions.

[Steve Burns]

The chick, like the little. Like the little cutout thing. I don't think it's worth millions that

you held in your hand.

I don't think it is. Because if it is, bro, I have the original thinking chair and the original notebook. I am set if that chick is worth a million bucks one day

[Angela C. Santomero]

if we need it. You never know. Break glass.

[Steve Burns]

Okay, so how do I want to do this? Like, people talk to me about the show all the time, right? I'm the public face. I have been a public face of the show for 30 frigging years now. But I feel like people don't talk to you guys enough about it. And I want to get all the way back. I want to go all the way back to when you guys met, how you guys got put together to make this show. Like, people don't really understand that we were children when this show. Like, when we invented this.

When you guys invented this, you were 22. No, 21.

[Angela C. Santomero]

Steve was 21.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah, we were 25.

[Angela C. Santomero]

We were 24. 25. Right. During development.

[Steve Burns]

So talk to me about development. Like, how did Blue's Clues get made? How did you guys get put together to invent this incredibly awesome TV show?

[Angela C. Santomero]

The part of the story I like to start with is that I was in research at Nickelodeon, and so I was constantly around what it was that Nickelodeon really wanted. And Nick Jr. Needed a signature show. They needed something to say, this is who they are. And I have a background in child development, and I wanted to bring. I mean, Tracy has a similar background, wanted to bring education to. To kids in a playful gaming way. And so when Nick Jr. Said they wanted a game show, I was like, how about, like a show? Like hide and seek? That kind of thing? It was. I literally wrote a research memo and was in the room where it happens, where she was, where the head of Nick Jr. Was like, all right, I see you. Like, let's do a little bit more. Let's do a little bit more. Let's do a little bit more. And next thing we knew, we were trying to find the next co creator, who also had a production background and a design background to basically pair with me.

[Steve Burns]

So I was freelancing in kids tv, doing my own also little cutout animations. I was just working at Reading Rainbow and I was just networking around. And it was actually the late, great Janice Burgess who I met. I got her name from somewhere and I said, yeah, no, I really want to do. You know, kids TV had my real.

She was an exec. She was an executive at Nick Jr. For our listeners.

Yes. And she stopped. She turned her head. She's like, I think you should meet Angela Santino.

Okay, that's the answer I was looking for. So they put you guys together. They said, yeah.

And then we got together and Angela was talking about, you know, kids talking back to the screen or love of Mr. Rogers. And, you know, I was so into just being at Nickelodeon, and I think it was. I forget what I said. And I'm like, I have some ideas. And I wrote out, like, three ideas.

[Angela C. Santomero]

Yeah. We talked about gaming and interactive and learning. And Tracy's like, I have some ideas I want to share with you. And she sends this gorgeous, like, drawing of herself with a million. Literally a million ideas coming out of her head, which nobody would do right now.

[Steve Burns]

Right?

[Angela C. Santomero]

Like, you're like, those are my ideas. And I was like, yeah, you can have all the ideas. But we talked for, like, I want to say, three hours. Pepperoni.

[Steve Burns]

Finding his pizza. I remember being one of the games.

[Angela C. Santomero]

That's a great game, which I don't

[Steve Burns]

think we ever did. That's a whole. That's a movie.

I gotta. Gotta find that document.

[Angela C. Santomero]

You have a pizza song, Steve, we could put in there as the theme song that.

[Steve Burns]

That all tracks. Actually, you know, that all makes a lot of sense, especially the part, Angela, where you said, I come from research. You know, that was always something. When I was the host of Blues Clues, I was always so afraid, like, what am I doing here? This doesn't make any sense. They have the wrong dude. And blah, blah, blah.

I was, oh, my God.

But I was always like, this is solid, you know, Like, I never worried about the potency of what we were doing. I was always like, okay, if it works, great. I don't understand why I'm here. But if it's working great. Like the. I was always so impressed really with just how well the show was scaffolded and researched and like. And I just felt like I was in great hands educationally for sure, you know, and that, that gave me a lot of confidence. I don't think people really get it.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

I don't.

[Steve Burns]

I always wish that was a bigger part of the story of Blue's Clues. So we were the, I believe, the most demonstrably educational show that ever happened, you know, and I'm so proud of that.

Oh, hands down. Hands down. And Angela did all that fantastic research. Do you want to talk about the Harvard study or the longitudinal study?

[Angela C. Santomero]

I mean. Yeah, we did all the longitudinal. Well, we were doing formative research throughout the whole thing to make sure that it was sticky so that if it didn't work, an episode didn't work, or an idea that we wanted to get across didn't work, we would fix it before it would get on the air. So we're constantly doing formative. And then we wanted to test the theory that kids were actually learning the kindergarten readiness skills that we put in it. So we have a longitudinal study across a 12 month period where kids were watching and taking tests and they scored statistically significantly better than kids who didn't watch Blue's Clues. So it was just. And then there was multiple studies about repeated viewing and the interactivity and the learning, the stickiness of learning and bonding that. We also did some academic studies with Dr. Dan Anderson on that, which was amazing. But the other thing I will say is if kids are not watching, they're not learning anything. And when we were in casting, because we didn't know if we wanted a male or a female, but person after person came in and they just. It's like, I want to say they destroyed the script because it was like, oh my God, this is terrible. This is so boring. No one's going to watch it. And then Steve came in.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah, well, I've. I've told this story a billion zillion times. I'll just, I'll recount it a little bit here because I'd rather talk about you guys than.

[Angela C. Santomero]

But, but it's true, right? All the pieces and all the stars had to align for it to work.

[Steve Burns]

When I walked in there, I thought I was walking into a voiceover audition, right? I thought it was to be the, the voice of a character on a cartoon, you know, and the honest to God truth was that I would not have gone to the audition if I had known that it was to be on camera because I had no real interest in children's television. Not that I was uninterested in it, but I just. I was like, oh, I. Yeah, it wasn't. Wasn't my thing.

Like, I want to be a kid's television.

[Angela C. Santomero]

No.

[Steve Burns]

And I was at that moment up in. Which is why he worked in that moment. I was up for, like, a series regular on a TV show called Homicide, you know what I mean? And I had gotten to New York by being, like, a really serious actor. Like, that's what I thought I was good at. That's what everyone was telling me I was good at, you know? Well, but, you know, I've always. There was always that clown side of me, too. But anyway, so when I got into the room, I saw the camera, and I was like, oh, shit, I better do something. And the thing that stuck out to me, Tracy, was your drawing. You drew. Tracy drew this little dude. He was just this little dude, and he looked. He had this crazy hair, and he looked, like, equal parts confused and like. Like flummoxed and excited. And I was like, oh, I like that guy. That's cool. And the script read like a game show. Like it was a game show.

[Akshay Tharabailu]

It was like.

[Steve Burns]

It was. I was testing, right? Like, that's what I remember thinking. It was like, oh, which one is the graham cracker? Good job. You guessed it. And I thought, I don't want to do that. You know? And so, for whatever reason, I have no idea why I made it. This, like, weird thing where I got, like, way too close to the camera. I was like, hey, man, do you know what's going on here? Because I totally don't. Like, it was just between me and the home viewer or something. And I remember it felt weird in the room, but I kind of dug it, you know? Like, I was like, oh, there's something just happened there. And that was strange. And I swear to God it was. There was these two ladies in that room, and I finished it, and I. Oh, God, this is audio. So you. I can't describe the face that Angela was making, but it definitely didn't look good. It didn't look like. It didn't look like she liked what I was doing. She looked like, huh, what a weird person. That was strange. And I thought I didn't get the job. I thought for sure I didn't get the job. But. But, yeah, I've told that story a hundred thousand times. But. But, but. But it is interesting, right? In the context of the three of us Together that it really was like a little lightning in the bottle situation where, you know, felt sort of like a magical accident. You know, I had this point of view for the character that I kind of pulled out of my butt. Not because I was a brilliant actor, I was just desperate and thought I didn't belong in the room to begin with, you know. And it happened to work with an incredibly brilliant, solid educational foundation.

[Angela C. Santomero]

And then I remember being on set and the job was to talk to you through the screen. So I would just like curl up. Like, this is where it's like a magical accident. Or, you know, we kind of knew what we were doing with that piece of it. And I would literally, instead of being like four beat pause, I would just go like this and watch and then talk to you. And that's how the cue was. I don't know if you knew that because obviously I wasn't directing you.

[Steve Burns]

Actually, you were not subtle about any of this stuff. You make it sound like you were in some other room with headphones on, like this. You were like sitting under the camera staring at me with, with like giant expectation. It was unsubt. But that's interesting. Talk to me about the pause, right? Because more than anything, you know, looking back 30 years, like, I feel like my job, my real job on that show was silence. And of all the radical things that Blue's Clues did, my favorite was the silence. And that's where I lived on set, right? Because other than that, it was just. I just felt unqualified. It was a really hard job with the blue screen and with everything else that was going on. It was. It was not super fun to shoot that show the first season, but I lived for those silences. Like, I felt like that's where I could breathe and I couldn't wait to do them. And like, that was my favorite part, was just leaning into the camera until it felt real. And we didn't know. Correct me if I'm wrong, guys, but we didn't quantify that silence for a really long time. We were just kind of feeling it, just kind of going for it.

[Angela C. Santomero]

We were just feeling it, which I think was the best. I think once you get too scientific about any art, it just kind of ruins the vibe. But we nuanced it with that. Like, okay, I'm. I'm the four year old and I'm going to talk with you through the screen. And that is really how we did the whole show, right? And it was all on you because it was just you the entire time. But, like, certain questions, right. You needed a longer pause. Certain questions were a little bit more immediate. We were more playful. You were sillier. Like the reactions were kind of like ping ponging, I think. And no, we never really thought to write it down at the time. It was much later when we were

[Steve Burns]

like, yeah, that always.

[Angela C. Santomero]

But what happened was it kind of ruined a little bit of the magic, right? Because it wasn't always a four beat pause.

[Steve Burns]

You know, that's where you're brilliant, Steve, of the way that you would just look in the camera, almost tilt your head, have a blink. It really felt like you were seeing the kid and the kid felt listened to. Our audience felt listened to. It's. You just had that magic face and eyes just drew you in. And honestly, when you think about it though too, we were the very first. It's kind of we created the Instagram culture of talking to cam in that way and listening, talking way before our time.

[Akshay Tharabailu]

This episode is sponsored by Better Help March, includes International Women's Day. It's a time to celebrate women and everything they carry at work in families and relationships, the rules they hold every single day. And lately I've been thinking a lot about my mother and how everything she was shaped everything that I am and how strange it is that most of that work was unseen to me as a child, like invisible to me as a kid. But it was definitely there. She created who I am in a whole lot of ways. I mean, she invented me really, if

[Steve Burns]

you think about it.

[Akshay Tharabailu]

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[Steve Burns]

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[Steve Burns]

we were early parasocial pioneers, you know, in a way that I'm not trying to sure about. I know, I'm sure you guys are like, it was great. But I'm always like, what, what are we doing here? Like, what, what, what is this? Are we like pretending that something is happening that is not happening? And is that.

No, but it is happening. That's kids suspend disbelief like that. I mean, I would get ready when I watched the Brady Bunch because Greg Brady was going to see me, so I would get all set in front of the tv.

[Angela C. Santomero]

So I mean, especially for preschoolers, right? The fantasy and reality distinction is that like nuanced and so we had to lean into it for them to bond and learn. But what I wish or what I wanted was to. For the technology to catch up so you could truly scaffold and truly work directly with the kid and then do it for an older audience and then an older audience. Right. So that we could think about what that would have been like if we could have scaffold it for a little bit older and a little bit older. Because you're right, you know, we left them after they were five or they left us after they were five.

[Steve Burns]

And then what I hear about it every day.

[Akshay Tharabailu]

Every day.

[Angela C. Santomero]

Well, that's true. That was also another was I supposed

[Steve Burns]

to still be there? Which is 30 years later.

[Angela C. Santomero]

You were not.

[Steve Burns]

You had every Right.

[Angela C. Santomero]

And it's normal and good.

[Steve Burns]

It was good.

[Angela C. Santomero]

That first script I wrote made me cry so hard.

[Steve Burns]

Anyway, we'll get to the last episode, but I've always wondered, was there ever a moment for you two where you thought, this isn't going to work? Because I thought that. I thought that. I remember, Tracy, you showed me the pilot. I was in some edit suite at Nickelodeon. You showed me the pilot and I was upset. I was like, I look ridiculous, right? Like, I thought I looked just completely absurd. And I was like, oh, no. But the honest to God truth is, I walked out of the room like, that is so brilliant. Like, that is. That is wildly. That's anti television television. That's when I was like, it's the Rocky Horror Children show, you know? And I thought, well, if Nickelodeon picks this up, which they won't, because no one's going to talk to the camera. Like, it is asking way too much of the universe. It's too smart is what I thought. And I thought if they pick this up, the first thing they're going to do is replace me, right? Like that's the first thing they should do. That's just what I assumed. I was like, whoa, man, that was a crazy pilot job that I did. But what a weird show. It's a shame that, that. It's a shame that it won't work. Did you. You never doubted it for a second.

Never.

[Angela C. Santomero]

Did you, Angela?

[Steve Burns]

Never.

[Angela C. Santomero]

You know, I was gonna say there was one instance. Well, two. One instance when we were listening to the first playback at Murmur Studio for the mix and they made it into the. They made it into like an arcade game. And I listened and I cried because it was like. Like it was literally almost a Super Mario. And again, we're talking about little kids. And I was like, oh my God, oh my God, like, what happened to our show? So we had to, you know, slow down and slip everything out and like figure out what the organic sound was, you know, all those things so that it wasn't wall to wall music. And the other time was earlier than that when we were using Nick Jr. S little one way glass research thing to figure out the pacing of the games with the animation, right? So we had our intern in there. You would show up, then the intern would come on the video and we were playing it out and kids were watching and they didn't understand what was going on because it was confusing. And Jerry Laborn, the president of the company, walks in and goes, they hate.

[Steve Burns]

Really?

[Angela C. Santomero]

And I was like, oh my God. Oh my God, Tracy. Tracy. I think we're done. I think our chances are over. But never. Once we had the final pilot and it was sent out, parents were desperate to keep that VHS and offering us thousands of $500,000 to keep it because their kid was gonna lose their mind if we had to take it back. But I was like, no, we have to take it back because, you know, we don't want people copying us. And yeah, so we knew it was ahead at that point, even before.

[Steve Burns]

Here's a question. I think that, you know, I want to get to the Fred Rogers of it all at some point, Angela. But, you know, everybody talks to the camera. Like, that's a trope of kids tv. Like literally every kids TV show talks to the camera. Hi, come on in. Like, that's literally everything, right? What we did was we listened to it and that was the thing, you know, that was the thing that I think changed kids TV quite a bit.

But again, your brilliance of the reason that you stuck out to us was that you weren't pedantic, you weren't that usual children's host because you didn't want to be a children's host.

Well, I wasn't, but that's not true. I wasn't think I wasn't. Well, I didn't want to be a kids TV show host is true, but I wasn't coming at it from left field. You know, I. I wasn't thinking, how can I make this a grown up, not kid show host? I was thinking of Grover. I was thinking of. In hindsight, I realized I was thinking of all of Frank Oz's characters. You know, I used to say on set all the time to. For people listening at home, you know, it was like season four and the Angela and Tracy would. Would allow some stranger to walk onto set and tell me how to be Steve. And I was like, no. You know, and.

[Akshay Tharabailu]

Exactly.

[Steve Burns]

And I'd be like, what? Like literally, this is Mad Libs. I know what I'm doing. And I would always say, no, no, no, no, no. It has to be more Bert than Ernie, right? Steve is more Bert than Ernie. And that's when it works, you know, And I think.

[Angela C. Santomero]

And that's the thing, I think you

[Steve Burns]

guys were looking for an Ernie and you got a Bert. You know what I mean?

Well, no, I think, I mean, your burtness came off initially when we first saw you of like this, but you

guys were always pushing me to Ernie, but if you had let me go, it would have been way too Burt. You know what I mean?

I get that. I see what you're saying in that.

[Angela C. Santomero]

I think that the idea was to make sure, yes, other TV show hosts would talk to camera not in the way Fred Rogers would do it, but in that, like performative, I'm making myself laugh way where we never cared. We never cared if the writing room was laughing about the stories. We cared if the 4 year olds were laughing and that the silence and the pausing and the listening was for learning, right? So everything we did, even when we made them laugh, even when they were in control and they had agency, right? So like even something simple of like you're looking on the bed and blue is hiding under the bed and the kids know that and you don't, that is all giving them like more self esteem and more self confidence and all that agency. So like we did it for that purpose. Which I think is where Bert, like you were Ernie sometimes and you were Bert sometimes. Right. Like, I think there was a level of silliness that we needed too. Right? And you were, you know, you're so funny and also so serious and so needed. You know, I remember it was like your big eyes. And I was like, yeah, of course. Italian big eyes is what we need.

[Steve Burns]

Stop being nice to me. It's 30 years later. This is not necessary.

No, we love being nice to you.

That's, you know, the truth is, for the listener at home, the foundation of the entire show was this, like this solid, un, unflappable respect for the mind of the preschooler. Right? That is where that was the, the, the seed for every decision that ever happened on that show, which is just really cool, you know, and if you look at it from that perspective, like, how do you respect someone when you talk to them? How do you respect someone when you listen to them? And a lot of that is the same if you're 4, then if you're 34, you know, and anyway, so. But do you guys think you could get Blue's Clues made today?

Absolutely. Yeah.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Angela C. Santomero]

On YouTube.

[Steve Burns]

Well, that's kind of. My question is, do you think that a network would throw money at it now?

[Angela C. Santomero]

I mean, you have to remember they gave us $5 to start and left us in a room by ourselves. And no one thought it was going to work. And I do think that level experimentation and we had no fear, right, because we didn't know what the rules were. So we just like breaking them all the time. And then the kids would win, right? Like the kids literally named the show the kids, you know, were the reason we got picked up. It was against all odds because We. Our show was up against shows that, like, people have produced and done shows forever. Yeah. So, like, huge. So we. So, yeah, I think we would have made it. Tracy and I are scrappy, but. But no, I don't necessarily know. If we went to pitch it today, we would get the same. Like, people didn't get it when we were pitching it. You know, we had to show it. And that's where the split screen happened. Yeah. Tracy had to draw. We had draw it out, every scene. And then we did the split screen of kids watching and you on the other side in the show so that they understood the pacing of it. Because, again, being quiet on TV is like money. Like, you're wasting money with like, you know, all that time.

[Steve Burns]

You know, one of the things you just said is they gave us $5 to make it. And I don't think people understand, like, what we. I don't think people understand what it was like to film that pilot of Blue's clues. $5 sounds about right. It actually does.

[Angela C. Santomero]

Yeah. It was like, bring your own lunch.

[Steve Burns]

I think we did bring our own lunch.

Now, I think you even took a taxi. Did we even pay for you to get the setup?

No, like the. The pilot was shot not in a. In a proper film studio at all. It was like an INS where you might shoot a Big Mac, you know, for a commercial. I remember the lights were about. This were about 4ft above my head.

[Akshay Tharabailu]

And.

[Steve Burns]

And they. And they were like, so hot. They were like so crazy hot because we had to over light everything that I would just melt after every take. Do you remember that?

[Angela C. Santomero]

And now Tracy and the bells.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah.

There was a church next door. We had to stop every 10 minutes for. For bells because it wasn't soundproof.

[Angela C. Santomero]

15. Every 15 minutes.

[Steve Burns]

Who. Who decided to let some like. Like a production assistant do my makeup? Who's.

[Akshay Tharabailu]

Who.

[Steve Burns]

Who do I blame for that?

I was just out of necessity almost.

So there was no makeup artist. So what happened was it was like, oh, shouldn't Steve wear makeup? We were like, oh, maybe. Yeah. And then. So somebody just came in with their makeup kit, like their.

[Angela C. Santomero]

Okay. But whether I applied it or not, it was my fault that you had eyeliner.

[Steve Burns]

I had eyeliner on. I had lipstick on. I look like I was about to head to the drag cabaret. You did not.

You look very pretty.

[Angela C. Santomero]

It was very. Your eyes were accentuated. They were big.

[Steve Burns]

It was not a great way to start. Right.

[Angela C. Santomero]

I have some great pictures.

[Steve Burns]

Never show them to anyone.

Angela brought her camera. Thank you.

Never show those to anyone.

[Angela C. Santomero]

That was. I said to Chase, we look like

[Steve Burns]

we're 14 years old, all of us. We look like we're worth 13.

[Angela C. Santomero]

14. Had a ribbon, a pink ribbon with a pink pen that I wore around my neck. So everyone knew I was the writer. I was very excited about that. And I said to Tracy afterwards, I'm like, can you give me some feedback on being a producer? Like, after that first show, she goes, take less pictures.

[Steve Burns]

I remember that. I do remember that. Which.

And now I absolutely thank God you did.

What was. Was really interesting. This is a cool story, actually. I had this crazy manager at the time, and she was a former educator, right? She. She was a teacher. That was her real passion in life. And she told me not to do blue schools. She told me not to do it. And I was like, why? Because she had read the script and she said, this is absolutely brilliant. She said, it is absolutely, stunningly brilliant. And if it works, it's going to change kids tv. And you're. And. And she's like, and you'll never get another acting role ever again. She's like, this. This will be you for the rest of your life if it works.

And did you believe her?

No. I was like, don't worry about it. I saw the pilot. It's too weird. This is the weirdest thing anyone ever made. It's not going anywhere. So I always thought that was a cool story. When did you guys know? When did you know, Tracy? When. When were you like, we have changed kids tv. Like, we're. We're. We're a big deal.

I think on the subway, seeing when the product came out, and seeing a person, a little kid that you didn't know in their family, and they had, like, on a Blues Clues T shirt

or backpack, that's still weird, right?

And just that in a good. Not in a. In more a magical way, it's not weird anymore. It just fills the cockles of my heart. When you see something you've created and then see it bring love to a kid and a family and to the world. It's just amazing.

What about you, Angela?

[Angela C. Santomero]

Mine was in the pouring rain when we had an Effio Schwartz event, and you were there, and families waited for hours, and the line circled around the block. And I remember we had to stop. Like, you know, you were there for hours. We had to stop. And you felt so bad that you went out and, like, said hello to all the families that were still waiting in that line. And I was just, like, in the rain. And of course, it rained again for Your Macy's Day parade. But, like, the idea of, like, oh, my God, all of these people came. And not only did they come, they came and they waited, and they waited in the rain. Like, it was. That's when my head just exploded.

[Steve Burns]

Like, Steve, I'm so curious. When was your moment?

Probably FAO Schwartz, like, what Angela was saying, because there was just so much confluence of cultural markers happening in that moment. Like, you know, there were kids. There was a line around the block in New York City at FAO Schwartz, which is the biggest toy store, and I was seeing all of our product lined up against Sesame's product and lined up against Disney's product, and it just sort of created an undeniable context in. In that moment. But, you guys, like, I really, like, the power of denial was very strong with me, and I. I just never really invested in the bigness of the show, and because it always felt so small to me. Blue's Clues was, like, done in a little stage on with nothing else in the room except just the blue void. It was just. From my perspective, it was just me and a camera. It was me and my friends. That's all the show ever was, you know, and it didn't feel. I didn't get it until 2021 when we did that viral video. I didn't get it until then.

[Angela C. Santomero]

You know, that was another time where people wanted to put so much music behind you. And I was so annoyed. I was like, pull it all back. Pull it all back. Like, how do people not learn that? That's all we want is that connection, that quiet connection.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah. Y.

[Angela C. Santomero]

But that viral video, I'm so glad that it happened for you. Well, for.

[Steve Burns]

For the show. I mean, like, that.

[Angela C. Santomero]

Well, but also the love that came out, like the love from Stephen Colbert you had.

[Steve Burns]

Were you guys. Were you guys surprised by that? Because I definitely was. I didn't know he. I've always wanted to ask you guys this. You know, I thought we were making an educational. I thought we were making, like, the best highlights magazine that ever existed. You know what I mean? I thought we were, like. We were so smart and clever about the amount of broccoli we were making you eat. You know, that's what I thought we were doing. I thought I was the delivery mechanism. I was part of that delivery mechanism. But what we were doing was teaching, you know?

[Angela C. Santomero]

But it wasn't broccoli, right? It was pizza with broccoli. We wanted it to be an entertainment hit. Like we want. That is, we were not gonna stop until that happened. And whoever didn't get it, didn't get it. But like that was what we were trying to do. But then also the other major moment for me and Tracy, I think, and I wish you were there, was being at the Emmys the first time. And all it was was Mr. Rogers neighborhood, Sesame street and Blue Clues.

[Steve Burns]

Clues. Yeah, yeah.

[Angela C. Santomero]

And I was like, okay, I'm done. Like, this is amazing. I don't care. We didn't win. Like this was just like the best thing we could have ever happened. But anyway, so to be. We want to be both, right? We wanted to be the educational hit that everybody wants, like pizza. But then of course we need to incorporate the good for you stuff.

[Steve Burns]

But I think both Angela and I got into children's TV because we knew the power of television and how it impacted us. Like you have your favorite shows or your favorite characters that you grew up with and to have that power, you just. We knew it was happening and it was possible and we're just not surprised. But. But tickle. I was not surprised by your viral video that it. But just so happy and tickled of like, oh, like the impact has been made.

[Akshay Tharabailu]

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[Steve Burns]

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[Chelsea Clinton]

Do you ever find yourself scrolling through headlines, especially health headlines, and just thinking

[Angela C. Santomero]

that can't be true?

[Chelsea Clinton]

Well, I certainly do. 2025 brought us some ridiculous far fetched health claims and some especially terrifying changes in public health. What's in store for us in 2026? I'm Chelsea Clinton and we're back with season two of my podcast that Can't Be True. Follow along and catch up on season one wherever you get your podcasts.

[Steve Burns]

But let's talk about that impact, right? That's what surprised me is Blue's Clues visually is just so unique and, and

[Akshay Tharabailu]

so,

[Steve Burns]

and so exceptional, you know, and also the content was so powerfully potent. You know, what I didn't anticipate was that that connection was as durable as it was and that that connection got through in a way that lasted 30 years and that could be resurrected simply by talking to the camera again in some way that surprised me. I didn't know that we were making that show to that degree, you know, because we didn't, we didn't have a connection to the camera department. You know what I mean? Like, we, we had a research department that with every layer of, every scaffolded layer of every game, there'd be five meetings and four drafts and like there was entire groups of people who were just out there in the world making sure that worked and, and research was on set making sure that stuff worked. And, and, but when it came to vibe, we, we weren't really focused on it that way. You know, I remember thinking once, you know, man, I just watched four meetings happen about the music that plays when the refrigerator opens and the cheese dances. Right? But we don't really talk about when I go like, hey, hey, how you do like, we don't talk about this thing that way. We know when it's not there and everyone is mad and upset when it's not that we know we need it. Right? But it's, it was kind of its own little thing. It was like I felt like I was in a department of one for.

[Angela C. Santomero]

Yeah, well, you had it covered.

[Steve Burns]

We, you.

Yeah, you had it covered. We didn't have to worry.

Yeah, well, it's true.

[Angela C. Santomero]

But there were a lot of examples of that of you having it covered. I was just talking about that because even with Paprika, being born was a huge episode for kids. Like, to this day, adult kids will come and talk to us about it.

[Steve Burns]

Sure. I hear it all the time.

[Angela C. Santomero]

Right? All the time. Had no idea that that was gonna have that level of impact. But as if you remember, it was just part of a script where you walk by and Mr. Salt and Ms. Pepper have a baby, and you're like, hey. And then keep going. And you were like, we were in a table read, and you stopped and you were like, I'm sorry. Did they just have a baby? This is a huge deal. This needs to be its own episode. What are you doing? Like, you had. You always had that. The vibe check. The understanding of this beautiful world, and like, you were inside it in a way that was, you know, genius.

[Steve Burns]

Thank you. But. But the. But the point is, like, I mean, you certainly had the research covered. You know what I mean? But that was, like. That was the engine of the show. There were, like, all the meetings and the departments and, you know, and same with the music, you know, but the. The connection to the camera thing, it almost felt like my little secret or. Or something, you know, it's. My point is, I didn't know that that was a big pillar of the show. You know, I didn't understand that that was one of the things people were gonna remember until 2021. I didn't really get it.

[Angela C. Santomero]

What about. What about Mr. Rogers? Because he had that effect on you the same way it did on us.

[Steve Burns]

So tell me about the Mr. Rogers of it all, Angela. Tell me about the ways in which. I think it'd be interesting for people to hear the ways in which Blue's Clues is a direct homage, a reverent homage to Mr. Rogers neighborhood. Tell me a little bit about that.

[Angela C. Santomero]

That's how I got to meet him. Because I talked about all of the. So he had. So Mr. Rogers neighborhood, and Tracy and I both have this connection with not only kids, media, but media in general. But I was that little kid who sat so close to the screen and literally talked to Fred Rogers. Like, I just. That connection he had to camera was like nothing else. The questions that he asked, I thought. I remember thinking, like, I guess I don't remember thinking. Those are smart questions. He's actually respecting me. But that's how I felt, right? Like, we're talking about divorce. We're talking about anger. We're talking about all these things that I could not talk about in my loud Italian Crazy house. And he had this beautiful, calming way about him. And that stuck with me forever. And so to be able to do that kind of thing. And he didn't always look at us and he didn't always talk to us. So I kept wanting more. So that's where Blue's Clues comes in. In the sense of more of it, where you don't ever stop knowing that we're right here for egocentric kids in general, because that's child development the way that we are built at that age. And I knew that that helped me growing up. And then there was a ton of research that Fred Rogers did to showcase the different elements of formal features on kids TV or why he did what he did and who he talked to. And he had a master's in child development. So I got a master's in child development. So like there was a lot of that passion for kids media that I admired so much. And so of course we knew that you talking to camera was gonna have a lasting and was going to help kids believe in themselves and feel, you know, that level of self esteem.

[Steve Burns]

Listen to, right. Feel, feel needed. You needed them.

I went back and looked at a lot of Fred Rogers in the last 20 years and that was heavy. There's a lot of heavy to Fred Rogers. A lot, actually. A lot of heavy. I mean, it's not just I like you just the way you are. In fact, he would never say I like you just the way you are. He would say, listen, I like you just the way you are. Which is. Which implies maybe someone doesn't. And maybe you feel like that's not true and that you're not enough. All of that is there and it's a heavy show. I firmly believe that Fred Rogers is gonna be remembered as much more than a children's television show host. He's gonna be remembered as a great teacher of human people.

[Angela C. Santomero]

I agree.

[Steve Burns]

Tell people about more like the one to one stuff of the Fred Rogers to Blue's Clues. The cardigan versus the stripey shirt, the skidoo versus the trolley and why we never cut the camera and why we did the weird pan. And so talk like cook, cook on

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

that a little bit.

[Steve Burns]

Cook on that a little bit.

[Angela C. Santomero]

You just did. Well, one of it was hand holding. One of the things that Fred talked about was not cutting from one thing to the next so that you had all these quick cuts. It's kind of the same kind of energy kinetic that that frenzied energy that you would get from some of the other kids show hosts. And kids shows. And so he would talk about hand holding the camera from one shot to the next. And with that, for us, meant definitely transitioning very slowly. And if we could do it all in one shot, we would have so that we're taking you as the home viewer with us on that journey. So that was definitely a piece. The transitional moment. Going from make believe, going from reality to make believe was Mr. Rogers house into the neighborhood of make believe. We had the skidoo frame, which was. As a kid, you're like, I want to know what's inside my favorite storybook. I want to know what's inside the picture that's on that wall. I want to know what that world is like. I want to be inside a fish tank, you know, like chalkboard. So that was the fantasy part of our show, even though our show was obviously more fantastical than a Mr. Rogers neighborhood. So we had to create a device and a technique like the trolley that would take you from that to the next. And that was the skidoo song and the dance to just cue you and everything. I'm trying to think what else. There's like a million of them. And I would talk about it. Yeah, the cardigan was a signature piece. Tracy, like, create. I don't even remember the conversation. Trey. That we would have about it. But then creating something that was. Was, you know, signature and you signature and unique that you would wear all the time.

[Steve Burns]

Really, really. Well, I remember it was like, ah, you were trying weird clothes on me because I was always your. I was always your dolly. Whether you were applying gobs of makeup or terrible pants to me, and that you were putting weird clothes on me and trying to decide what to wear. And there was a cardigan or a. A rugby shirt. And Tracy went, huh, you know, it'd be cool if it was green. Like green striped gum.

That's right.

Fruit stripe gum.

The two times.

Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's solid. That's correct. You know, I'll never forget.

[Angela C. Santomero]

Well, and, you know, the other reason was that we needed you to look like a professional, someone who you could leave your kids with.

[Steve Burns]

All right, talk to me about that.

Talk to me about that. I am Steve. You had I am Steve Burns, the guy who played Steve for a hundred thousand years. I have no idea how old that guy was. I have no idea. Did he have a driver's license? Did he.

[Angela C. Santomero]

Like, you were there by yourself. He. You were capable enough to run a household and to take care of Mr. Salt.

[Steve Burns]

Ran that

[Angela C. Santomero]

in your head? Mr. Salt did a lot of those things. We ended up elevating his status, fell in love with him. But the idea that like, like we were coming out right when Pee Wee

[Steve Burns]

Herman had his, when he had his,

[Angela C. Santomero]

his thing and parents and, and parents were like, I don't know if I trust a guy around kids. And we were like, you have to try, you know, like, look, look at the sensitive, you know, guy who needs your help. There's nothing like that when you're four to think some grownup needs your help. So we had to make sure that you looked a little bit more like a grownup. Hence the pleated pants and hence the

[Steve Burns]

phone call after your first audition of like, can you trim your hair?

Or like, was that you trim your hair? One of you called me and was like, do you own a clean shirt? And is there any way you can get a haircut tomorrow?

Yes, it was, yeah.

I mean, yeah, because, you know, Steve, as the actor playing Steve, I, there was something I always wondered about, was like, all right, right? This is the trickiest part of this role is, you know, I'm, I'm, I, I was right out of theater school, so I was using all this, like ham fisted, heavy duty acting stuff, right? And one of the things I was using was status, right? So in any conversation there's a status implied between two people, especially in drama or theater. And I was like, okay, so I'm going to place the home viewer at a higher status than me. Me, right? Because what could be more respectful, brilliant? What, what could be more that. That way I'll never talk down to them, right? And so if they're, if their status is higher than me, then I'm so excited that they're here, right? Like, I can't believe they're here. My coolest friend is here. And I'm always a little bit afraid that I might look a little dumb, but I don't want to look dumb and I don't want to ask this question and look stupid, but which one is the graham cracker? You know? So like, there was always playing that, but then I was like, well, wait a minute. Am I supposed to be a trusted adult or am I supposed to viably be a man who doesn't know the difference between shapes and colors? So it was always like a tricky thing to parse and to figure out. And I'm actually grateful that we never talked about it. It would have made it so much better.

[Angela C. Santomero]

We always wanted it to feel as if that the story couldn't propel forward without the kids.

[Steve Burns]

Oh, yeah. Steve needed their help.

Yeah, I think we would phrase it. You weren't the sharpest knife in the drawer. Like, you were okay. You just need a little help.

Happy jackass is what I always.

[Angela C. Santomero]

No. In my head, it was the very best preschool teacher who is at your level and knows all the answers, but makes you believe. Do I really need someone to help me set the table? Sure. Do you know, that kind of thing. I'm totally being that one.

[Steve Burns]

That's interesting. That's fascinating, Angela.

[Angela C. Santomero]

I know, but I don't think you liked that answer, so we didn't really talk about it.

[Steve Burns]

Well, just so you know, that is the opposite from how I approached your show.

[Angela C. Santomero]

It was working. We didn't need to label it.

[Steve Burns]

I was full of doubt, and you guys were definitely not. You guys were like, we got it. And I was like, what are we doing? You know? And I was always wary of the primary message of the show. Angela, you and I talked about this once, just a tiny bit. But every time I would say, if you use your I, there was a proposition that I was constantly underlining, which was that if you use your mind and take a step at a time, you can do anything that you want to do. And even then, when I was 22 years old, I was like, I don't think that's true. True. I don't think that's true. I could concentrate as hard as I can. I could study as much as possible, and I could be really deliberate and intentional about it and still not pass the bar. I could practice every single day and never dunk a basketball. Like, are we setting an expectation that we can't back up? And I would not have cared. I would have been like, oh, it's kids TV show. It's just an empowering message. You know what I mean? I get it. Except that what I was hearing from the research department all the time, which I agreed with and thought was sounded very right to me, was that preschoolers are the most literal human beings on earth, you know? And so I was like, am I. What am I saying? Like that is that fact that preschoolers are so literal is one of the reasons that I was always so neurotic about everything. Because I was like, oh, my God, what am I saying? I am the mouthpiece of this, and what am I telling these kids? And is it true? So that always froak me out. What did you think of that, both of you?

[Angela C. Santomero]

Because I think that kids are so smart, that, yes, they're literal, but they're so smart. And I Have an example of that from Daniel Tiger. But the idea that you believe. But now, remember, we're in a gated garden of twos, threes, fours and fives. Right? You need to believe at that age that you're safe, that you're trusted, that there's a trust in the world and that if you want to do something, you can do it. I don't know how you go out in the world. I mean, it's very difficult. And there are kids who do it that go out in the world who don't have that level of trust and safety net that they had growing up. From zero, I would even say, not that zeros are watching our show, but from zero to five, you need that. Right. There's a ton of research about it. And so this was a way for us to get that. We want kids intrinsically motivated. We want them to believe in themselves, and we want them to try and try and try. And at the end of the day, if they can't do it, they're going to get way closer at it than if they had never tried at all.

[Steve Burns]

Strong agreement. But that's not what we told them. You know what I mean? I didn't say, if you use your mind and take a step at a time, you will go super far and probably exceed what you thought your potential was. And I didn't say those weren't the things I said. I said, no, you can do it.

[Angela C. Santomero]

It wouldn't make a good song.

[Steve Burns]

It would have made it terrible. That's the most honest answer. And of course, Angela, I think what you said to me a long time ago was, you are way overthinking that. And you're right. Right, of course.

Yeah. I was just going to say I think it's overthinking completely. It's just setting the positive direction. And what are you going to tell them not to do that.

Okay, here's one for you. All right. Where was Magenta's spin off? I'm this. This is something that people ask me all the time. And as a fan of the show,

[Angela C. Santomero]

it was set up. I know. We were totally set up with Miranda. I agree.

[Steve Burns]

And I was thrilled. I was like, Nickelodeon wasn't interested where I have a crush on the neighbor next door. It can always be wholesome and innocent and it's something to do. And we can see the pink version of the Blue House. And it would just be a home run. Like, why didn't that happen? Half the people that cosplay at these fan conventions I do are Magenta.

Are Magenta. Yeah.

So where was that?

[Angela C. Santomero]

They didn't want. Nickelodeon. Didn't want it. Like, it wasn't our choice. You know, you really need the backing of the network and that. Like, we set it up, we teed it, thought that was really where it was going to go, and it didn't. So we had to pivot. And that's when, I guess we pivoted to Blue's room.

[Steve Burns]

Oh, right, the puppets. Yeah, the Blue's puppets.

[Angela C. Santomero]

That was Donna, because kids wanted to hug Blue. That was the number one thing. Kids wanted to hug Blue and talk with her. And so we did. We went with, like, the best of the best and had and went towards the puppet world.

[Steve Burns]

Maybe that's. Yeah, maybe Magenta is our YouTube spinner enough.

Yeah, maybe. Tracy, what is your favorite episode of Blue's Clues?

So many. I think. I really love the one where there was the sound. Were we the superheroes? I forget.

[Akshay Tharabailu]

What.

[Steve Burns]

What. What was your name? Yes. Your striped man. And it was the washing machine that was making the noise. I don't know.

Great episode. Really strong episode. Really had a Goonies vibe to it. And it just felt so preschool to be afraid of the watching machine. That's up there in mind. What about you, acs?

[Angela C. Santomero]

I like the waiting one where we had you sit in the thinking chair for an entire minute. That showed some skill. That was awesome. And I liked the outer space one, maybe because you were in a harness for so long, but also because NASA then used. Used the song, which was awesome. And Snack Time will always be my favorite, I think, because the fact that someone took that seriously and we got to make a show starting with that one is probably still my.

[Steve Burns]

Like, I'd say my favorite one is Storytime, which I think is 103.

[Angela C. Santomero]

Story time's a good. Yeah, that's a great one.

[Steve Burns]

A lot of people don't understand this, but, you know, as I was on the show, my contract kept running out. I kept saying, like, I want to have more things to do as an actor and all this stuff.

[Akshay Tharabailu]

Stuff.

[Steve Burns]

And I was like, we need to. I want the show to be more emotional and more story and narrative driven. And I feel like I might have pushed it a little, and I don't think it needed it in hindsight. You know what I mean? Like, we had it in season one. There's some awesome episodes later on. But there ain't nothing wrong with. With story time with Blue, you know? There ain't nothing wrong with that.

[Angela C. Santomero]

I remember you being like, why can't we do it this way. And I was like, well, then we'll be like every other show. Like, there was definitely this, like, push and pull, but I think that. I think that, like, Adam brought so much to the show and added all that. That depth. I think there's just, you know, we figured it all out and had multiple. I mean, the fact that season one is, in case they never let us do this ever again, we are going to do everything we'd want to do in 20 episodes. So then the. Once we got to do more, we got to play more in the world, which I think, you know, the mix of all of them worked.

[Steve Burns]

There's just such a sweetness to that first season, you know, because the truth is, you know, I had never watched 99 of them, right? And then when we were looking for Josh, I went back because you had said, steve, let's figure out why the connection works, or whatever. It's like, oh, I guess I should watch. So I watched them all, and. And I was like, yo, man, that first season is so sweet. That, like, that.

It.

It could be funnier. It could be this. It could. It could have a little bit more subversion, maybe here and there, but there ain't nothing wrong with just diving on the floor and coloring in some elephants. Like, that's great, you know, and the music was perfect in season one.

So good.

It was, like, perfect in season one. What about favorite characters? These are just the questions everyone asks me on the daily basis. Tracy, who's your favorite character on Blue's Clues? Right on. Okay. Angela, do you have a favorite character?

[Angela C. Santomero]

I can't say. You, right? You can say character. The character. The character of. You can say, I think so. I mean, people always expect me to say magenta so that Tracy and I'd be together, but I. You know, me, I'm you. You were my Fred Rogers. Please don't say thing ever. To watch that happen.

[Steve Burns]

Please don't say that. Please don't say that. Honestly, 90 of the reason why I do this podcast. Well, that's not true. I'd say maybe 30 of the reason why I do this podcast is to ground that image away from being the Fred Rogers of anyone, you know, because I'm not, man. I am not like that dude in any way. That guy was a bodhisattva.

Well, you had an impact on kids. Just like Mr. Rogers.

[Akshay Tharabailu]

That was his show.

[Angela C. Santomero]

The heavy. The heaviness of what you're saying is. For me, it was. It's the. When I say that, it's the idea that this Character is this beautifully charming person who wants my point of view on something. And that's like, amazing.

[Steve Burns]

I like Mr. Salt.

We know you do. You guys are so great in that movie.

[Angela C. Santomero]

Oh, God. So good in the movie. All three of you in the movie. Those are some of my favorite days.

[Steve Burns]

But guys, how does it feel? Like, let's. Let's just, just. Let's just leave it there. Like, how does it feel? You know, you created something that has lasted for 30 years longer than you were alive when you conceived of. Is a multi generational show that is meaningful to human beings in precisely the ways that the shows that influenced you. You were. How does that feel, Tracy?

Warm. It feels like a warm. Like just this warm puppy light and just so happy. Like, I feel like we did it and it. It just to know that we've impacted so many children along the way over the world just. It just feels warm and delicious and happy. And look, the sun rays are coming out. That's what it feels like. It's just like. Oh, like you just feel so special. It just feels so magical. I just feel lucky, too, because, you know, it doesn't always happen. I just feel very, very lucky. Love you guys so, so much.

For the listeners at home, that was the most Tracy Page Johnson answer imaginable. And for the listeners at home,

[Akshay Tharabailu]

a

[Steve Burns]

shaft of sun rays literally shone through the window and basked her in glory.

As she said, that's how it feels. I feel like, so lucky. Just so lucky and happy.

What do you think, Angela?

[Angela C. Santomero]

It's the same. It's the same. I feel like Tracey and I feel like the family that we made while we were making the show and the memories that we have, it's like it all. It's just as wonderful and warm as knowing that we impacted. I mean, it's too hard for me to think about impacting kids in that way. I'm just so proud and happy that we were able to play in that world and have people appreciate it.

[Steve Burns]

Well, guys, I've said it before. I'll say it again. I mean, I don't know how to thank you for taking a risk on a little unwashed skate rat with a pack of cigarettes in his back pocket.

We knew instantly. We knew instantly.

I didn't know. I. Being the host of a children's television show was never something I wanted to do with my life, but it was cooler. It. It. My life became something much cooler than I had hoped for. You know, 30 years later, I don't. I still don't feel like qualified in any way to have been the host of that show, you know what I mean? On a lot of levels. But I'm just proud to have been associated, you know, with something that was just such good tv. I mean, TV doesn't even exist anymore, but when there was tv, we were good, you know?

[Angela C. Santomero]

Would you still have left if you were to do it all over again?

[Steve Burns]

That's one thing I saw when I watched. When I watched all of the episodes. I was like, oh, dude, come on, man. Let's go, Steve. Let's go. Like, come on. Come on, bro. Well, guys, thank you so much. This has been wonderful. It's always great to catch up with both of you again. People ask me all the time about this wonderful show of which I was only one small part, you know, so I'm. I'm always thrilled to show them the actual brilliance behind the show. And thank you for coming on my weird podcast. I. I know that people are really going to enjoy hearing your perspective and seeing Blue's Clues through the lens of the people who actually created it. So it's a pleasure always. And guys, happy 30th. Happy 30th anniversary.

[Chelsea Clinton]

Happy.

[Steve Burns]

Cheers.

I gotta say, there is a particular kind of joy in reminiscing with those two about that show. I mean, we were just kids, you know, we were just young, young people taking a big swing at the universe with a really weird TV show. And it worked. You know, it's so wonderful to reach back and. And relive those memories nostalgically. Nostalgia can be so kind, right? So comforting to look back as an adult at a place of joy from childhood. Childhood is a reminder that we are not strangers to joy, to warmth. But I have noticed something about myself, and that's that sometimes I don't just look at the past. I try to live there and stay there and attach to it, you know? And I do that with the future, too. I'm either, like, imagining a future where everything is cool, where I catastrophize about a future where everything sucks, and I attach to that one way or the other, past or present. And that's a little tricky because the truth is, the only place that I can really enjoy this cup of tea with you is here and now. What part of you is still living in the past? And how is that serving you?

[Akshay Tharabailu]

Yeah.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah. Okay. Right on. Well, listen, thank you so much for being here. Thanks for coming by, as always, I really appreciate it. It means a lot to. And you look great. Have I mentioned that? You do. You look. You look great. I mean, it's been 30 years. You know, whatever you're doing, it's great. Alive with Steve Burns is a Lemonada Media original. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now's the perfect time. You can listen to the show completely ad free, plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content from me as I reflect on this episode. Just press subscribe on Apple podcasts, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. That's lemonadapremium.com Alive is hosted by me, Steve Burns and produced by Jeremy Slutskin. Our editor is Christopher Champion Morgan. Our Associate producer is Akshay Tharabailu, audio engineering by James Sparber. Lemonada's SVP of weekly programming is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Jessica Cordover, Kramer Summer, Stephanie Whittles, Wax, and me. We'll see you next week. And you look great, by the way.

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[Chelsea Clinton]

to make your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one best selling author of the Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. My co host and happiness guinea pig is my sister, Elizabeth Craft.

[Steve Burns]

That's me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer

[Chelsea Clinton]

and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore ideas and hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits. Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from Lemonada Media.