Confronting Hate One Conversation at a Time with Daryl Davis

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Confronting Hate One Conversation at a Time"

Alive with Steve Burns / Lemonada Media
Guest: Daryl Davis
Release Date: December 17, 2025

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Overview

In this episode of "Alive with Steve Burns," host Steve Burns sits down with Daryl Davis—a renowned Black jazz and blues musician best known for his remarkable work engaging with members of hate groups such as the Ku Klux Klan. The episode explores the power of deep listening, courageous curiosity, and face-to-face dialogue as tools for breaking down the walls of prejudice, informed by Daryl's own life story and years-long quest to answer a pivotal question: "How can you hate me when you don’t even know me?" The conversation delves into how Davis’s unique encounters with Klansmen catalyzed not just understanding, but genuine transformation—often resulting in former extremists abandoning hate and handing over their robes.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Early Life and the Origins of a Question

• Daryl’s Childhood:

  • Grew up as the child of US Foreign Service parents, living around the world (03:53).
  • Returned to the US at age 10; attended a newly integrated school as one of two Black children.
  • During a Cub Scout parade, was assaulted with bottles and debris, the only Black participant targeted (04:12).
  • Parents explained the concept of racism to him for the first time. Daryl was unable to understand how strangers could hate him purely for his skin color (05:47).

  "My 10 year old brain could not process the idea that someone who had never seen me, never spoken to me, knew nothing about me, would want to hurt me for no other reason than this: the color of my skin." — Daryl Davis (06:13)

• The Lifelong Question:

  • This experience sparked his quest: “How can you hate me when you don’t even know me?” (06:58)
  • Sought answers through books and conversations but remained unsatisfied.

First Encounters with the Klan

• Musical Career Sets the Stage:

  • Playing with a country band in Frederick, Maryland, he meets a man at the racially exclusive Silver Dollar Lounge (08:32).
  • After being complimented and invited for a drink, the man reveals he's a KKK member and presents his membership card (12:01).
  • Davis is both shocked and intrigued; their interaction opens an unexpected door into the lives of Klansmen.

• Ongoing Relationship:

  • Called the man whenever the band was back in town; the Klansman would bring fellow members to watch Daryl perform (13:42).

Turning the Table: From Curiosity to Research

• Years Later—Pushing Deeper:
  • Realizes he missed his chance to ask the “core question” directly (17:05).
  • Tracks down his original Klan acquaintance years later, only to learn the man has left the organization and no longer has his robe (19:07).
  • This encounter leads Daryl to contact Roger Kelly, a Grand Dragon (state leader) in the Klan, through a white secretary to avoid suspicion about his race (22:35).

Daring Conversation: Inside the Klan’s World

• High-Risk Meeting:

  • Describes the harrowing experience of meeting Roger Kelly at a motel above the Silver Dollar Lounge (24:41).
  • Kelly arrives flanked by his armed “Grand Nighthawk” bodyguard. Tension is palpable—one misinterpreted noise sets everyone on edge (28:01).
  • The accidental clinking of ice and soda triggers a moment of collective ignorance and fear, almost escalating to violence—until everyone realizes the source of the sound and laughs it off.

  "Ignorance breeds fear. Fear breeds hatred. Hatred breeds destruction. If you cure the ignorance, then there's nothing to fear. The good thing is this, Steve. There is a cure for ignorance. That cure, my friend, is called exposure—education." — Daryl Davis (33:32)

The Process of Transformation

• The Power of Relationship:

  • Explains that persistent, respectful conversation—even with adversaries—finds common ground and narrows divides (34:16).
  • Over time, some Klan leaders (like Roger Kelly, who became a national “Imperial Wizard”) changed their views and left the Klan.

  "If you spend five minutes with that person, you're going to find something in common... When you get here, you are in a relationship with your adversary... you're friendly, you're being friends." — Daryl Davis (35:11)

Real Conversations with Racism

• Challenging the Narrative with Humor and Facts:

  • Shares a story of debating an “Exalted Cyclops” (local Klan president) about Black people having a "violence gene" (36:29).
  • Turns the argument around using the same pseudo-logic about serial killers as a “white gene”—stunning the Klansman into silence and reflection (38:53).
  • Such exchanges, Daryl explains, often plant seeds that grow into real change.

  "[He said] your gene is latent. It hasn't come out yet, right? ...I used his figure of authority...and said, 'You know, they say all white people are born with a gene that makes them a serial killer, right?...' I said, 'Son, you are a serial killer.' He said, 'Darrell, I've never killed anybody.' I said, 'Your gene is latent. It hasn't come out yet.'" — Daryl Davis (37:46–38:53)

The Scale and Emotional Challenge of This Work

• Impact and Reflection:
  • Davis clarifies he’s the “impetus” for change rather than a persuader; more than 200 people have renounced their affiliations in part because of their relationship with him (39:56).
  • Keeps dozens of robes, hoods, medallions, and memorabilia as tangible symbols of transformation (40:12).
  • Notes that change doesn't happen overnight—it's through exposure, education, and real, ongoing connection (41:50).
  • Explains the philosophy: You can’t force someone to change their reality, but you can offer new perspectives; if they resonate, people will change themselves (42:34).

The Radical Act of Listening

• A Counterintuitive Approach:
  • Steve highlights that Daryl’s willingness to listen—rather than yell or shut down—is deeply counterintuitive, but clearly effective (43:22, 44:00).
  • Daryl emphasizes trying new approaches after centuries of failed progress: “Perhaps it's time to do something a little different to resolve the problem...” (44:00)

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Notable Quotes & Powerful Moments

On the root cause of hate (33:32):

"Ignorance breeds fear. Fear breeds hatred. Hatred breeds destruction. So if you want to solve the problem, you want to address the root cause, the root cause is ignorance... and I've proven it works." — Daryl Davis

On finding common ground (35:11):

"If you spend five minutes with that person, you're going to find something in common... you are in a relationship with your adversary, and you keep on talking, you found more in common. Now you're friendly, you're being friends." — Daryl Davis

On reality and persuasion (42:34):

"You cannot change anyone's reality... What you do is you offer them a different perception. If they resonate with one of those perceptions, then they will change their own reality because their perception becomes their reality." — Daryl Davis

On why a new approach is needed (44:00):

"When you've been mistreated for 400 years... and 400 years later, you're still being mistreated, perhaps it's time to do something a little different to resolve the problem..." — Daryl Davis

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Key Moments by Timestamp

• 00:19–03:30: Steve introduces Daryl and his extraordinary approach to racism.
• 03:53–06:49: Daryl's childhood experience with racism and how it shaped his worldview.
• 08:32–13:42: The chance meeting with a friendly Klansman and ongoing contact.
• 17:05–19:07: Realization and pursuit of direct answers from Klan leadership.
• 24:41–29:48: First high-tension meeting with Grand Dragon Roger Kelly; soda bucket incident.
• 33:32: Daryl’s framework: “Ignorance breeds fear…”
• 35:11–36:29: Explaining the process of narrowing ideological divides.
• 36:29–38:53: Debating pseudo-science and beliefs in the car with a Klan officer.
• 39:56–41:12: Daryl’s impact: over 200 former white supremacists have abandoned hate.
• 42:34: The philosophy behind changing hearts and minds.
• 43:22–44:00: The power and radicalism of deep listening.

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Tone and Takeaways

The conversation is intimate, reflective, sometimes humorous, and often astonishing; it moves from moments of raw vulnerability (childhood trauma, life-and-death tension) to surprising warmth and even laughter in the company of would-be enemies. Steve’s tone is a mix of admiration, incredulity, and gratitude, while Daryl’s is patient, thoughtful, and quietly confident. The ultimate message: Confronting hate with curiosity and genuine conversation can yield life-changing results when we dare to listen deeply—even (and perhaps especially) when it seems least intuitive.

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Episode Reflection Prompt

Steve closes with:

“Is there a conversation in your life that seems impossible to have, and how might that change if you listened deeply?” (45:00)

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For more inspiring conversations, subscribe to "Alive with Steve Burns" and explore the full archive at Lemonada Media.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Daryl Davis]

Lemonade.

[Steve Burns]

Hey, there you are. Good to see you. Come on in. Welcome to Alive. Okay, here's one for you. Have you ever come across someone and just instantly decided you didn't like them, that you weren't interested in knowing them, and just written them off completely, even though you really didn't know anything about them? You ever done that? Tea. I'll make it. You want tea? I asked myself that very question. And I want to say no, but honestly, I think I've done that. I think I've done that. But we see this dynamic play out everywhere, all across the world right now. And when it gets far enough, it does become entire groups of people who literally hate each other, even though they know nothing about each other.

[Daryl Davis]

Here you go.

[Steve Burns]

And I'm wondering why. Right, of course. Why. But also, how. How do we do that? Like, how is that possible? How can you hate something you don't even know? What do you.

[Daryl Davis]

Yeah, come on.

[Steve Burns]

Okay. So today we are talking to an accomplished jazz and blues musician who has played with absolute legends like Jerry Lee Lewis, Chuck Berry, and that's already incredibly epic. And yet that is not the most amazing thing about this guy, because he is also someone who has sat across from people that I would never, ever sit across from. Members of the Ku Klux Klan. Yeah. A black blues musician sitting across from the Klan. And instead of shouting, which I might have done, he pulled up a chair, he asked questions, and he listened. And somehow, almost impossibly, he changed minds. Some of them gave him their robes. I'm not kidding. His name is Daryl Davis, and he's got a book. I saw a documentary about him. I've heard him speak. And his story might actually be the strangest, bravest experiment in human connection that I have heard. And he's here. Hey, Daryl.

[Daryl Davis]

Hey, Steve. How are you doing?

[Steve Burns]

I'm doing great. Thank you so much for being here. We super appreciate it.

[Daryl Davis]

It's my pleasure.

[Steve Burns]

So you actually have a really interesting childhood story. Why don't we start there? Because I think it really does kind of inform how you got to the work that you currently do. So tell us about how. How you grew up.

[Daryl Davis]

Sure. Well, I'm from Chicago originally, and I'm 8. I'm age 67. I was the child of parents in the U.S. foreign Service, you know, traveling all around the world, starting at the age of three.

[Steve Burns]

So then you came back to the States. I think you were around 10 years old or something.

[Daryl Davis]

Right?

[Steve Burns]

Right. Yeah. Tell me about that experience.

[Daryl Davis]

All right. So one of those times I came back at the age of 10, I went to a newly integrated school. I was one of two black kids in the entire school. I was in fourth grade, there was a little black girl in second grade, and several of my male friends were members of the Cub Scouts and they invited me to join. So I joined. So now we had a parade and it was the Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, Cub Scouts, Brownies, 4H Club, different organizations. And I'm the only black person there. So we're marching down the street, people were cheering and waving and having a good time until we reached a certain point in this parade route when suddenly I was getting hit with our bottles, soda pop cans and small debris from the street. And my first thought was, oh, those people over here, they don't like the Scouts. That's how naive I was. And it wasn't until my Scout leaders came running over to me and covered me with their own bodies and quickly escorted me out of the danger that I realized I was the only Scout getting hit because none of my fellow Scouts were getting this special protection. So now I'm wondering what had I done to cause them to get angry and attack me like this? And I kept asking my Scout leaders, why are they doing this? Why are they doing this? And all they would do is kind of shush me and rush me along, tell me to keep moving, keep moving, everything will be fine. I kept moving. They never answered my question, Steve. So I had no idea, you know.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah.

[Daryl Davis]

And by the end of the parade, I still didn't have an answer. When I went home, my mother and father, they were unable to attend the parade. They had something else going on, but they were home when I got home. They were cleaning me up and putting band aids on me and asking me how did I fall down and trip and fall down and get all scraped up. I told them, you know, that wasn't the case. I told them exactly what had happened. And for the first time in my life, at the age of 10, my mom and dad sat me down and explained to me what racism was. I had never heard the word racism. It did not exist in my sphere. And so when they were telling me this, I literally did not believe my parents because my 10 year old, yeah, my 10 year old brain could not process the idea that someone who had never seen me, never spoken to me, knew nothing about me, would want to hurt me for no other reason than this. The color of my skin. It made no sense.

[Steve Burns]

So this inciting incident, how did that change you from. From that point on? You know what, what changed in you after that experience?

[Daryl Davis]

Well, what happened? I. I formed a question in my mind after that event, at that age, and that question was, how can you hate me when you don't even know me? And so that put me on a trajectory to find out the answer to that. As a teenager, I began buying every book I could find on black supremacy. Black supremacy, white supremacy, the Ku Klux Klan, the Nazis in Germany, the neo Nazis over here, anti Semitism, racism, you name it. They talk about the problem, but they don't give me an answer. At least not an answer. That placates my curiosity. So I'm not satisfied. I would ask people, why do people do that? Oh, Darrell, some people are just like that. That's just the way it is. That's not an answer for me. So who better to ask that question of how can you hate me when you don't even know me? Who would go so far as to join an organization with over 100 year history of practicing hating people? So I figure, find one of those people and they would have the answer for me.

[Steve Burns]

Okay, all right. But the balls of that is what. It's just insane to most people to think that.

[Daryl Davis]

And how.

[Steve Burns]

How old are you when you get this idea? How old are you when, say, when you have this impulse of, you know, who I'm going to talk to because I'm so curious about this problem, I'm going to go talk to the Klan.

[Daryl Davis]

So here's the pivotal point. You know, I'm out of college, I'm playing in bands and so forth. Country music had made a resurgence, right? So if you want to play music full time, you got to play what people want to hear, right? So I jo. I joined a country band and I've been around for a long time, and they hired me as their piano player. I'm the only black guy in the band. Yeah. There was a town called Frederick, Maryland, and in Frederick, Maryland, there was a bar, a club called the Silver Dollar Lounge. The Silver Dollar Lounge had a long standing reputation that it was not welcoming to black people. All right? And I knew the reputation. And of course, when I came in, people looked at me, but they didn't do anything. And we played our set and people got up and danced to our music and things and had had a good time on the break. I was following the band to go sit down at the band table when I felt somebody from behind reach across my shoulder, kind of embrace me sort of like from behind. So anyway, I turn around and this white guy, 15, 18, maybe even 20 years older than me. Big smile on his face, he goes, man, I sure love your piano playing. This is the first time I ever heard a black man play piano like Jerry Lee Lewis. Now, to me, that was not offensive to me, but it piqued my curiosity to like, wait a minute. This guy is, you know, a decade and a half, maybe even two decades older than me. He grew up, you know, with Jerry Lee Lewis heyday, you know, I came. I was born in 58 when Jerry Lee had his last hit. Whole lot of shaking going on, you know, whatever. Great balls of fire. This guy does not know the black origin of Jerry Lee Lewis piano playing.

[Steve Burns]

He's never heard Fats Domino. He's never heard.

[Daryl Davis]

Exactly. I said, where do you think Jerry Lee Lewis learned how to play? He says, what are you talking about? I said, he learned from the same place I did, from black blues and boogie woogie piano players. That's where that rock and roll rockabilly style came from. And the guy did not believe me, but he wanted me to come back to his table and let him buy me a drink. He pays the waitress, takes his glass and clinks my glass and cheers me. He says, you know, this is the first time I ever sat down, had a drink with a black man. Now I'm even more mystified. And I wasn't trying to be facetious. I was curious. I said, why? Innocently. And he stared at the tabletop, didn't answer me. I said, why? And his buddy sitting next to him elbowed him in the sides. Tell him, tell him, tell him. And I said, tell me. Because now I'm. It's like a mystery, right? I had to solve this mystery. So he looks at me just as plain as day, and he says, I'm a member of the Ku Klux Klan. I burst out laughing because, as I told you, I have every book written on the Ku Klux Klan, right? I've studied this stuff. I know the Klan, I know the mentality. I know everything about them. And they don't just walk up to a black guy, put their arm around a black guy's shoulder and want to hang out and buy him a drink and talk to him and have some fun. It doesn't work that way. He goes inside his pocket, pulls out his wallet, hands me his clan membership card I recognize. What's that?

[Steve Burns]

What's that?

[Daryl Davis]

It's a red circle with a white cross and a red blood drop in the center of the cross.

[Steve Burns]

They carry ID cards. They carry around identification cards.

[Daryl Davis]

Absolutely. You're a member no, no, they don't. They don't give them to somebody. I mean, they do. They do leave cards, but. But not. But not their ID card. They. You have a membership card and then you have another card that says you have been paid a friendly visit by the Ku Klux Klan. Don't let the next one be a business visit.

[Steve Burns]

Oh, that's cute. Yeah, that's nice.

[Daryl Davis]

Okay, okay. But anyway, he handed me his membership card, right? And I saw the clan logo. Whoa, this is for real. So I stopped laughing because it wasn't funny anymore, right? And I gave it back to him. And now I'm sitting here wondering what the heck am I doing sitting at a table with the Klansmen? That was totally spontaneous, unprepared. But he was very friendly. He asked me a lot of questions. We talked about different things, talked about the Klan. Here's the thing, though. He gave me his phone number and he wanted me to call him whenever I was to return to the Silver Dollar Lounge with this band that I was playing with because he wanted to bring his friends, meaning Klansmen and Klans women, to see, as he put it to me, the black guy who plays piano like Jerry Lee. Oh, my gosh, I don't know that he called me the black guy to his friends. Yeah, but that's how he. That's how he referred to me in conversation with him. I called him every six weeks. You know, we're on a rotation with other bands. He'd come, he'd bring Klansmen and Klans women to see me play.

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[Steve Burns]

So you have this. You have this card and you're like, hey man, we're playing again. Why don't you stop on by and bring some of your clan buddies?

[Daryl Davis]

Well, I didn't say it like that, but yeah, exactly.

[Steve Burns]

My God.

[Daryl Davis]

And he'd come. That went on until the end of that particular year, at which time I quit that band. So a few years passed and it suddenly dawned on me, Darrell, you blew it. The answer to your question that's been plaguing you since the age of 10. How can you hate me when you don't even know me? It fell right into your lap, and you didn't even realize it. Who better to ask that question of than a Klansman, right? He joins the Klan because he hates black people, he hates Jewish people, he hates gay people, he hates Muslims, he hates Mexicans. He hates anybody who's not him, right? So let me get back in contact with that guy. And I decided at that point I wanted to write, all right? There had been no books written by black authors on the Ku Klux Klan. So, long story short, I tracked down that guy. He had moved. He didn't have a phone at that time. And so I got an address on him, and I went to his apartment, you know, unannounced, because I had no way of calling the guy. And so I knock on the door. The guy opens the door and sees me. He goes, darryl, what are you doing here, right? What's going on, man? Are you still playing? What's going on? What's going on? And I said, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm still playing, man. I said, listen, I need to talk to you about the Klan. He goes, the Klan? I said, yeah, you remember, right? Well, he told me he had left the Klan, you know, he was no longer involved with it. I said, well, where's all your Klan stuff? He says, you mean my robe and hood? I said, yeah. He says, well, they came and got it. I said, what do you mean they came and got it? Don't you own your robe and hood? And he explained to me, which I later found out to be true. You can buy the robe and the book, handbook and this and the other. You can pay for it all outright and it's yours to keep. Apparently, he had not paid off his robe and hood, so they came and repoed it. But he said that he still had the mask that went, you know, across the hood to cover the face.

[Steve Burns]

Oh, right, because it's like a mask and a hood or something.

[Daryl Davis]

Yeah, exactly. The mask attaches to the hood. So he has since he couldn't find it when they came and. But he has since found it. He needed to return it. I said, let me see. And he handed it to me, and I'm looking at it. And I said, do you know Roger Kelly? Yeah, I know Roger. Roger was my grand dragon. Grand dragon means state leader. And I said, well, you know, I want you to give me Roger's address and phone number. I need to talk to him. I'm going to write a book. I want to interview him. Oh, Darryl, I can't do that. I said, well, you say you Got to return this mask, right? He said, yeah. I said, well, give me his address. I'll go to his house. I'll return it for you. He snatched that thing right out of my hand. Voom. No way. Right. And he was fearful that I would get in trouble and he would get in trouble, and so I had to twist his arm, not literally, but figuratively, for about 20 minutes. He finally gave it to me on the condition that I not tell Mr. Kelly where I got his personal information. Phone number and address.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah.

[Daryl Davis]

And I said, okay. And he warned me. He said, darrell, do not fool with Roger Kelly. He will kill you. And this guy was genuinely concerned for my safety.

[Steve Burns]

Were you concerned for your safety at that point?

[Daryl Davis]

I was not. I was not really why I was not. I just didn't feel it. You know, all I want to do is talk to this guy. Why does he want to kill me if all I want to do is talk to him? I mean, yes, there are people out there because he came to mind. I tried to talk to somebody, and they wanted to fight. You know, I had to defend myself, but I'm willing to take that chance. So, I mean, to me, somebody in a robe and hood is no different than you or I. You know, their ideology may be different, but don't worry about what the person has on. Worry about what's in their heart and what's in their mind. You know, the robot hood don't mean anything to me again, because I didn't grow up with it.

[Steve Burns]

But as someone who studied the Klan to the degree that you did, it is one thing to be the dude in the Hawaiian shirt who happens to be a racist, who happens to think that one race is superior to all other races. It's another thing to say to take the next step and say, I'm gonna join an organization with a strange hierarchy full of all kinds of weird fantasy names, and I'm gonna join a club and be an active member of a club that goes out and intimidates people, that goes out and expresses this hate and literally practices this hate, goes out.

[Daryl Davis]

And lynches people, goes out and murders people, goes out and bombs their churches, drags them behind pickup trucks.

[Steve Burns]

So that's a who. Other level. Right.

[Daryl Davis]

And.

[Steve Burns]

And yet you're like.

[Daryl Davis]

How do you find out about. About what goes on in their mind, why they do this unless you talk to them? You know, if you want. If you want to learn about serial killers, yeah. You know, you can go to the library and. And check out books on serial killers, but if you really Want to know what goes on? You got to interview one of them.

[Steve Burns]

I. I take your point. I'm just wondering why you weren't scared. You know, I'm just wondering.

[Daryl Davis]

I just wasn't.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah, I'm just kind of amazed. All right, so here we are, and you're about to go meet a grand dragon, the state leader of the Ku Klux Klan in what, Maryland? Right, right. All right, so walk us through that.

[Daryl Davis]

Okay, so I'm the one who had Roger Kelly's phone number. My secretary at the time was white. Her name was Mary. I gave it to Mary and said, listen, I want you to call him, tell him your work, you know, your boss is writing a book on the Klan. Would he consent to sitting down and doing an interview? But I knew because of all the studying that I've done on them that he would know the voice on the other end of this phone line is a white woman. And I know the mentality enough to know that he would not automatically think this white woman is working for a black man. Okay, so Mary did call him, and he agreed to do the interview. And he didn't ask what color I was. And so we set it up for the motel right above the Silver Dollar Lounge. The lounge is in the basement of this motel. I gave Mary some money and sent her down the hall to get soda pop out of the vending machine. Put it in the bucket, you know, the ice bucket. Put the ice in it and get it all cold. I had no idea what this man was going to do when he showed up, but I knew what I was going to do. I was going to be hospitable. Just like if you came to my house, I would offer you a cold beverage. All right? So I'm going to offer him a cold beverage. So she got that all set. So I sat up in the most obscure corner of the room so Mr. Kelly would have to be halfway in my room before he ever saw me.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah, you're determined to be a surprise to Mr. Kelly.

[Daryl Davis]

Yeah, you know, I want him on my territory, just, you know, for safety reasons. So all that set up had the record on the table, cassettes in the bag. I also had a copy of the Bible in my bag because the Ku Klux Klan claims to be a Christian organization, right? And they say that the Bible preaches racial separation. Now, I'm a Christian. I've read the Bible. I've never seen that in there. So I want to be able to pull up my Bible and say, here, Mr. Kelly, please show me chapter and Verse where it says blacks and whites must be separate. So I'm all prepared. Right. Right on time. Knock, knock, knock on the door. And so Mary opens the door, in walks what is called the Grand Nighthawk.

[Steve Burns]

What's that?

[Daryl Davis]

Well, nighthawk means bodyguard, grand means state. So a Grand Nighthawk would be the bodyguard to the Grand Dragon, like an Imperial Nighthawk would be the bodyguard to the Imperial wizard thing. Exactly. So, so, so the Grand Nighthawk walks in, he's wearing military camouflage. He's got that red circle patch with the white cross blood drop patch on his face.

[Steve Burns]

He's decked out in militant camo.

[Daryl Davis]

Yeah. And then on this side, he has KKK3 3Ks embroidered on his. On his chest. On his cap it said Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. And on his hip he had a semi automatic handgun. Whoa. So he comes. Yeah, he comes in and he turns the corner and sees me and just, you know, freezes. Well, Mr. Kelly is on the other side of the corner. He does not realize that his Nighthawk has stopped short. He comes around the corner and bam, bumps into the Nighthawk, knocks the guy forward. And they both were stumbling around trying to regain their balance. And they're like looking all around the room. And I'm just sitting there, you know, looking at them. And I can read their faces. I know what they're thinking. They're thinking, did the desk clerk give us the wrong room number? Or, you know, or is this an ambush? I saw the apprehension, so I stood up and I went like this to show I had nothing in my hands. And I walked right up to Mr. Kelly. I extended my right hand. I said, hi, Mr. Kelly, I'm Darrell Davis. He shook my hand. He shook your hand, as did. Yes, he did. As did the Nighthawk. So, so far, so good. Please, please come on in. Please have a seat, Mr. Kelly. Mr. Kelly sat down on the other side of the table opposite my chair. And the Nighthawk stood at attention to Mr. Kelly's right. And before I could sit down, Mr. Kelly said, Mr. Davis, do you have any form of identification? I said, sure. I put up my wallet, handed him my driver's license. He looked at it and he goes, oh, you live on such and such street now, that had me a little concerned.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah.

[Daryl Davis]

Why is he reading my. Why is he reading my street address? Is he going to come to my house and burn a cross or something in my yard? And so I did not want to let him know that he had, you know, unnerved me a little bit. But I let him. But I want to let him know in no uncertain terms was he to come to my house uninvited for any, you know, nefarious reason. Right. I said, yes, Mr. Kelly. That is where I live and you live at. And I named his house number and his street. That way I was leveling the playing field. In other words, if you come visit me, I'm going to come visit you.

[Steve Burns]

So let's find all this tense meeting.

[Daryl Davis]

Well, it got even more tense. So, you know, we got on with this conversation. I'm questioning him. He's telling me why he believes a certain way, this, that, and the other. And every time the. The recorder ran out of tape, I would reach down into my bag and pull out a fresh tape to put in the recorder cassette. Or if Mr. Kelly said, Mr. Davis, the Bible says, you know, if I didn't believe, you know, what he was saying, I'd reach down, pull out my Bible and say, here, Mr. Kelly, please show me chapter and verse where it says blacks and whites must be separate, or whatever reference he was making use quoting the Bible. Every time I reach down like this, the Nighthawk reach up like this.

[Steve Burns]

Whoa.

[Daryl Davis]

Okay. Now, he never pulled the gun, but he would rest his. His hand, his palm, you know, on. On the butt of the gun. Well, this went on for about 45 minutes. Wow. And then the dude relaxed. He realized there was no threat in the bag, and he relaxed. And all of a sudden, Steve, out of nowhere, there was a very fast, very short noise like a. That was it. And we all jumped. Because it was so out of context. Instantly, I went into survival mode.

[Sponsor/Ad Reader]

Yeah.

[Daryl Davis]

Because I had all kinds of things running through my head. Daryl, don't fool with Roger Kelly. He will kill you. I'm getting ready to come across that table and grab Mr. Kelly and the Nighthawk and slam them down to the ground and take away the Nighthawk's gun. But when I hit the table now, I'm inches from Mr. Kelly's face. I'm looking right into his eyes, and I did not say one word, but my eyes spoke loud and clear, and they were saying to him, what did you just do? Well, he's looking into my eyes, and I could read his eyes. He didn't say a word either. His eyes were saying to me, what did you just do? And the Nighthawk's back like this again, looking at both of us like, what did either one of y' all just do? Well, Mary was sitting to my left on top of the dresser because there were no more chairs. She realized what had happened and she began explaining it to us and we all began laughing at how ignorant we all were. What had happened was this. The bucket of ice with the cans of soda in it that, you know, we had prepared was sitting to Mary's left. The ice had begun melting and. And the cans of soda were falling down the ice.

[Steve Burns]

Oh, my God.

[Daryl Davis]

That was it. Okay. That was it. Okay.

[Gretchen Rubin]

This podcast is brought to you by wise, the app for international people using money around the globe. With WISE, you can send, spend and receive up to 40 currencies with only a few simple taps. Whether you're buying souvenirs with pesos and Puerto Vallarta or sending Euros to a loved one in Paris, you know you're getting a fair exchange rate with no extra markups. That's what makes WISE the fast, affordable way to use your money around the globe. WISE offers 24.7live support and runs over 7 million daily checks to catch and prevent fraud. So you know your money is where it's supposed to be. Smart. Join the 15 million customers who choose WISE. Download the WISE app today or visit WISE.com Learn more by visiting WISE.com US Compare T's and C's. Apply. What if the justice system wasn't just about punishment? What if it could support more productive lives, healthier families and stronger communities?

[Daryl Davis]

We changed the quality of life in the neighborhood. Homicides dropped 44% in the first couple of years.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I'm your host, Ana Zamora, and I'll show you what a better justice system actually looks like because it's already happening. Season two of When It Clicked from Lemonada Media is available December 10th, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Steve Burns]

So the tension in that room was so thick. I mean, you got a paramilitary kkk, whatever his fantasy title, Nighthawk, with his hand on his semi automatic weapon staring at you. And you guys are ostensibly having a civil conversation, but.

[Daryl Davis]

But the.

[Steve Burns]

But the background tension is such that the sound of a soda bottle clinking in an ice bucket sent you over the table. So you. Right, so you got two things going on there, Darrell. You're saying, all right, I'm going to hear this man out. I'm going to listen. Because I am obsessed with this question, you know, how can you hate me if you don't know me and you want an answer to your question, but at the same time, you're aware this man could shoot me at any moment like that.

[Daryl Davis]

That.

[Steve Burns]

That is in the room. The hate is in the room. The hate is in the room with us here. The hate is across the room.

[Daryl Davis]

So I have to control the situation.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah.

[Daryl Davis]

If I want to live, I have to control the situation.

[Steve Burns]

Did that.

[Daryl Davis]

That's what's going through my mind.

[Steve Burns]

So what happened?

[Daryl Davis]

Well, like I said, when Mary began explaining it and it happened again, we all began laughing, ignorant. We all. Yeah, we all. We all laughed. And the lesson taught is this all because some foreign underscore, highlight, circle the word foreign entity of which we were ignorant. That being the bucket of ice Kansas soda entered into our little comfort zone via the noise that it made. We became fearful of each other. Ignorance breeds fear. Fear breeds hatred. Hatred breeds destruction. So if you want to solve the problem, you want to address the root cause, the root cause is ignorance. If you cure the ignorance, then there's nothing to fear. With nothing to fear, there's nothing to hate. The good thing is this, Steve. There is a cure for ignorance. That cure, my friend, is called exposure education. And that's where we need to focus our energy, our efforts, our finances, our time on curing the ignorance. And I've proven it works. Because eventually Roger Kelly, he moved through the ranks and became an imperial Wizard. He oversaw 13 states.

[Steve Burns]

Wow. He was a national leader.

[Daryl Davis]

Yeah, he. He invited me to some of his Klan rallies. You know, I'm just telling you about Roger Kelly. I mean, there's tons more I could tell you about, about different wizards and dragons and so forth and so on. I've been doing this for 45 years. And Roger Kelly, not everybody changes, but Roger Kelly eventually changed.

[Steve Burns]

But what I still can't get to. And what I want you to talk about is, is how you became friends with this man.

[Daryl Davis]

Okay. All right. Well, because if you start, let's say, this far apart on the ideological spectrum. Yeah. You talk with your. With your biggest adversary or enemy, whatever. It doesn't have to be about race. It could be about anything. You know, it could be about race. It could be about abortion, nuclear weapons, the last presidential election, the. The war between Gaza and Israel, the war between Russia and Ukraine, whatever. Hot topic, right? You're on one side, somebody else on the other side. If you spend five minutes with that person, you're going to find something in common. And that chasm, that gap is going to narrow a little bit because you found a commonality. You keep on talking, you're going to find more in common. And now you're here. When you get here, you are in a relationship with your adversary, and you keep on talking, you found more in common. Now you're here, you're friendly, you're being friends. Okay?

[Steve Burns]

And this is what happened with you and Mark Kelly. This is, this is what happened with you guys.

[Daryl Davis]

It happens. It happens with me. And all of them, you know, most of them I'll say, you know, that I deal with. And what happens is this when you get here, you have caused a cognitive dissonance in their mind because they have found a whole lot more in common with you than they have found in contrast.

[Steve Burns]

Is this the sort of conversation you were having with Roger Kelly? Were you just shooting the shit about current events and other things that weren't his? His.

[Daryl Davis]

Absolutely.

[Steve Burns]

His seething hatred for everything that you are. So you were able to get past that by simply.

[Daryl Davis]

Yeah, really? What?

[Steve Burns]

And so you're sitting there.

[Daryl Davis]

Let me give you an example. Let me give you another example. An exalted Cyclops, okay, was in my car, okay? I'm driving around, you know, we do a lot of conversing in my car, believe it or not, all right? So he's sitting over here in the passenger seat, I'm driving, and he says, you know, we got on the topic of crime, especially black crime, right, which is his favorite topic. And I've heard this a million times, but he used a figure of authority that everybody uses, but nobody's ever seen. The biggest figure of authority is a person or group known as they. They.

[Steve Burns]

They say all things.

[Daryl Davis]

Yeah, yeah, okay. So he said, well, you know, they say all black people have a gene, are born with a gene that makes them violent. They say, right? And I say, I'm driving. I'm saying, you know, what are you talking about, man? He says, well, who's doing all the drive bys and carjackings in southeast. He was referring to southeast Washington, D.C. which is predominantly black. There's some white people who live there, it's predominantly black. And yes, it's high crime ridden. I said, okay, it's black people. I said, but you're not considering the demographics. He goes, oh, no, no. Demographics have nothing to do with it. You know, you all got this gene. Doesn't matter. I said, look who's doing all the crime up in Bangor, Maine. White people, because that's what lives there, right? So he goes, no, it has nothing to do with the demographics. You know, you got this gene. And I said to him, I said, listen, man, I am as black as anybody you've ever seen. I have never done a carjacking or a drive by. How do you explain that? This man did not hesitate one second. He answered me like that. He said, your gene is latent. It hasn't come out yet, right? How do you argue with somebody that far out in left field? You can't even bite into that.

[Steve Burns]

That's my question to you. You know, how do you.

[Daryl Davis]

Listen? I'm just dumbfounded. I'm. Shut up for a moment, you know, because I don't know. I don't know what to say. I'm just. What the hell just happened? He's over here all smug like. Huh? You got nothing to say? I had to go to where he was mentally. So I used his figure of authority. I said, well, you know, they say that all white people are born with a gene that makes them a serial killer, right? He's like, what are you talking about? I said, well, name me three black serial killers. There are tons of them out there. Name me three black serial killers. He couldn't even name me one. I said, here, I'm going to give you one. I named one for him. I said, just name me two. He couldn't even name me two. I said, charles Manson, Jeffrey Dahmer, Henry Lee Lucas, John Wayne Gacy, ted Bundy, Albert DeSalvo, the Boston Strangler, David Berkowitz, Son of Sam, on and on and on. I said, they're all white. I said, son, you are a serial killer. He said, darrell, I've never killed anybody. I said, your genus, latent, hasn't come out yet.

[Steve Burns]

Latent, Genesis.

[Daryl Davis]

Hey, man, that's it. And he shut up. He didn't say one word. I could tell his wheels were spinning in his head. And then he changed the subject. But within a few months, he quit the Klan based on that conversation.

[Steve Burns]

Really? See, this is. This is what I can't figure out about you, Darrell, that you persuaded a what? A Cyclops?

[Daryl Davis]

I just, you know, an exalted Cyclops.

[Steve Burns]

Was sitting in your car, and you said, hey, man, your logic is broken completely. And.

[Daryl Davis]

And.

[Steve Burns]

And here's a counter.

[Daryl Davis]

I didn't say that. I just.

[Steve Burns]

That's what you're doing, right?

[Daryl Davis]

That conclusion? Yeah.

[Steve Burns]

And you're presenting a counterfactual. And you convinced him. There's something about you that is extra convincing. I feel has to be something about what you're doing that is extra compelling. It has to be, because you're making changes. How many. How many people have you persuaded? How many. How many Klansmen? Because you've got robes, right? How many robes do you have?

[Daryl Davis]

Yeah, I have. I don't say I persuaded them. I said that I am the impetus for them to renounce and rethink. Okay? I have done this with over 200.

[Steve Burns]

200, 200, yes.

[Daryl Davis]

I've been doing for 45 years.

[Steve Burns]

You got 200 robes somewhere.

[Daryl Davis]

No, no, no, I'm not saying I have 200 robes. I have probably maybe 65, 70 robes. But I have over 200 items. I have medallions, I have belt buckles, I have flags, you know, all kind robes and hoods and whatever. All kinds of stuff, you know, that they use in there. I have a ton of these things. Let me see if I got one in my pocket here.

[Steve Burns]

If you can see, this is a card.

[Daryl Davis]

Oh, no, this is a medallion. It says KKK member. Member in good standing. Can you see that?

[Steve Burns]

You carry that thing around with you Sometimes.

[Daryl Davis]

Yeah. Wow.

[Steve Burns]

So you have. You have been the impetus, as you say, for changing what I would call the poisoned mind and soul of 200.

[Daryl Davis]

Former members of the Klan, white supremacists, whether they're a clan, neo Nazi.

[Steve Burns]

Right.

[Daryl Davis]

You know, whatever.

[Steve Burns]

That's something about you, man. That's something about you. And I got a lot of questions about that. What is that process? Like, what does that feel like to deeply listen to someone like that who does not want you to exist?

[Daryl Davis]

Well, you know, going. It's not shocking because going into it, I know their history.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah.

[Daryl Davis]

You know, whether they bombed a church and I. I've met plantsmen who've committed murder. Yeah. And things like that. And, and. And tried to bomb a synagogue and this, that and the other. But you never know how the conversation is going to go. Yeah. What impact it may have. Because you don't see people change overnight.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah.

[Daryl Davis]

It's over time. And what I really feel. I feel exhilarated. I feel convinced that I need to keep doing this. Every time one of them changes and the light bulb goes on in their mind, you know, I've been going down the wrong path. I need to straighten up my act here. I need to give up this crazy hatred stuff. Yeah. Because, you know, they're not born with that. That's a learned behavior. And what can be learned can be unlearned. But let me share this with you, Steve, and your listeners. It may sound a little counterintuitive.

[Steve Burns]

It's the most counterintuitive.

[Daryl Davis]

Hear me out.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah.

[Daryl Davis]

Okay. So you've heard the saying, one's perception is one's reality. Yes.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah.

[Daryl Davis]

Okay. So that's true. Whatever somebody perceives becomes their reality. Even if it's not real, it's their reality. Keep in mind, you cannot change anyone's reality. What is real to them? What is real to them? Is real to them, you cannot change it. And if you try to change somebody's reality, you're going to get resistance because they believe whatever it is they think is real, and you're going to get pushback. Okay? What you do is you offer them a different perception or perceptions, plural. If they resonate with one of those perceptions, then they will change their own reality because their perception becomes their reality.

[Steve Burns]

There's something about you, man, that, that. That allows for this, and you're doing incredible work out there in the. In the world, but I want to talk to you for the rest of my life. I really admire what you. I really admire what you do, and I'm perplexed by it. And you said before that it's counterintuitive. And, you know, deeply listening the way you have through ignorance to the KKK is probably the least intuitive thing I can imagine. But it seems like it might be the most effective thing possible, you know?

[Daryl Davis]

Well, you know, Steve, when you've been mistreated for 400 years, and I've been here 400 years as a descendant of slaves, right? And 400 years later, you're still being mistreated, perhaps it's time to do something a little different to resolve the problem because, you know, was Isaac Newton or somebody, right? You know, if you do the exact same thing the exact same way, you're going to get the exact same result. So why 400 years has this problem not been resolved? Maybe it's time we do something a little different. And that's what I'm doing.

[Steve Burns]

Well, hey, man, this is a really cool story to listen to, and I really appreciate.

[Daryl Davis]

Do a part two sometime.

[Steve Burns]

All right, man, we will. And it's. It's great. It's great to actually meet you and thank you so much for coming by.

[Daryl Davis]

My pleasure. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. Take care.

[Steve Burns]

Bye. Wow.

[Daryl Davis]

Let's go.

[Steve Burns]

Sitting in a room and deeply listening to the clan is like the least intuitive thing Daryl could possibly have done, right? It's like the most unlikely response to that situation, listening. And I'm wondering if that's part of why it worked. I mean, it seems like an impossible conversation to have. Right? I wonder, is there a conversation in your life that seems impossible to have and how might that change if you listened deeply? What do you think? Yeah.

[Daryl Davis]

Right.

[Steve Burns]

Well, listen, it's. It's great to see you. Thanks for coming by. This always means a lot to me, and you look great. Alive with Steve Burns is a Lemonada Media original. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet now's the perfect time. You can listen to the show completely ad free, plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content from me as I reflect on this episode. Just press subscribe on Apple podcasts head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. That's lemonadapremium.com Alive is hosted by me, Steve Burns and produced by Jeremy Slutskin. Our editor is Christopher Champion Morgan. Our Associate producer is Akshaz Tharabailu, audio engineering by James Sparber. Lemonada's SVP of Weekly programming is Steve Nelson. Executive Executive producers are Jessica Cordova Kramer, Stephanie Whittles, Wax and me. We'll see you next week and you look great by the way.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Want to listen to your favorite Lemonada shows without the ads? Subscribe to Lemonada Premium on Apple Podcasts. You'll get ad free episodes and exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, Fail Better with David Duchovny, the Sarah Silverman Podcast, and so many more. It's a great way to support the work we do and treat yourself to a smoother, uninterrupted listening experience. Just head to any Lemonada show, feed on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe Make Life Suck Less with Fewer Ads With Lemonada Premium, are you looking for ways to make your everyday life happier, healthier.

[Daryl Davis]

More productive, and more creative?

[Gretchen Rubin]

I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one best selling author of the Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin Podcast. Mike co host and happiness guinea pig is my sister, Elizabeth Craft. That's me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore ideas and hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits. Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from lemonada Media.