Alive with Steve Burns

Episode: Dr. Desiree Jones on Neurodivergence: Who Decides What’s “Normal”?

Date: November 12, 2025
Host: Steve Burns (Lemonada Media)
Guest: Dr. Desiree Jones, Associate Professor of Psychology, Director of the SHINE Lab

Overview

In this episode, Steve Burns welcomes Dr. Desiree Jones for a candid conversation about neurodivergence, exploring what it means to be "normal," how society defines difference, and the evolving understandings of autism and neurodiversity. Together, they discuss stigma, diagnosis disparities, masking, intersectionality, friendship, bullying, technology, and hopes for a more inclusive future. The tone is warm, curious, and often gently humorous—the hallmark of Steve’s style. Dr. Jones (“Desi”) brings expertise and personal perspective, making complex topics relatable and deeply human.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What is Neurodivergence? (05:10)

• Defining Neurodiversity:
  • Neurodiversity is likened to other forms of human diversity (race, culture, age), applying the concept to how brains function and process the world.
  • Jones: “It’s kind of a framework looking at...different types of brains...Neurotypical people...whose brains function in what's seen as, like, a typical way...People whose brains process things a little differently...They're called neurodivergent.” (05:10)
• Broad Definitions:
  • Neurodivergence isn’t limited to autism or ADHD; it can include mental health conditions, acquired brain differences (e.g., post-stroke), and more.
  • Dr. Jones resists “gatekeeping” of the term.

2. Diversity, Ability, and Stigma (07:18)

• Strengths and Trade-offs:
  • Neurodivergence can bring unique strengths—creativity, focus, routine, or programming skills—but may also create social or functional challenges.
  • Jones: “Because you can think differently...You can be really creative, oftentimes.” (08:10)
• Social “Masking” and Burnout:
  • Neurodivergent individuals often feel pressure to pass as neurotypical, suppressing natural behaviors—a phenomenon called masking.
  • Jones: “Neurodivergent people feel like [they have to perform] pretty much, like, all the time...It's called masking.” (10:04)

3. Diagnoses: Trends, Bias, and Equity (11:39)

• Rising Diagnoses:
  • Increase is due to better recognition, earlier detection, and broader definitions, not a sudden rise in prevalence.
• Gaps in Diagnosis:
  • Girls, people of color, and non-stereotypical presentations often get overlooked or misdiagnosed (e.g., as having “Oppositional Defiant Disorder”).
  • Jones: “Black children are more likely to have more diagnoses before reaching the autism diagnosis as kind of their final diagnosis...more misdiagnoses at first.” (18:01)

4. Masking in Marginalized Groups (16:19, 19:02)

• Compounding Pressures:
  • Girls and people of color learn to mask to avoid stigma or misinterpretation—magnifying social exhaustion and undermining diagnosis.
  • Interests in autistic girls may look "socially typical," but are unusually intense; boys’ may be more unconventional.

5. Neurodivergence, Gender, and Sexuality (19:46)

• Research Trends:
  • More autistic people identify as transgender or non-binary compared to the general population.
  • A significantly higher rate of asexual and aromantic identification among neurodivergent people.
  • Jones: “A lot more autistic people are transgender or non-binary compared to the general population...There's a theory that maybe autistic people...don't perceive these gender norms in the same way because...of their differences in thinking.” (20:00–21:01)

6. The Double Empathy Problem (23:00)

• Not Just a ‘Deficit’:
  • Communication gaps are two-way; autistic people communicate well with each other, suggesting “deficits” are mutual misunderstandings.
  • Jones: “It’s not just autistic people having trouble understanding and empathizing with non-autistic people. It’s a two-sided thing.” (23:00)

7. Stereotypes & Representation (25:32)

• ‘Lack of Empathy’ Myth:
  • Media depicts a narrow (often “white, awkward genius”) range of autistic experience, reinforcing harmful assumptions.
  • Jones: “Autistic people have often been portrayed as...aloof and cold, when in reality, many...avoid interactions because they face so much discrimination and bullying.” (26:41)

8. Stigma—Shrinking or Changing? (27:00)

• Persistence of Ableism:
  • Autism awareness is up, but deeply rooted ableism, especially social exclusion in friendships and relationships, continues.
  • Non-autistic people are especially reluctant to form friendships with autistic individuals.

9. Misinterpretation and Microaggressions (28:57)

• Misreading Cues:
  • Neurotypical people may misinterpret neurodivergent communication as rudeness or lack of interest.
  • Steve: “A lot of it is about...seeing past your assumption of the cue you’re reading...” (28:57)

10. Advice for Parents (35:32)

• Acceptance, Advocacy, and Love:
  • Accept your child as they are now, advocate for their needs, and provide loving belonging—regardless of “ability.”
  • Jones: “Prepare your autistic child for the world...with acceptance, advocacy, and love.” (35:49)
  • Dr. Jones shares her personal story—being “weird” (a Matt Damon obsession), being bullied, but always feeling accepted at home.

11. Technology, Social Media, and Community (39:32)

• Empowerment and Danger:
  • The internet allows neurodivergent people to find community, particularly for women and people of color.
  • Social media can also expose individuals to bullying and negative experiences; relationships can be hard to translate from online to in-person.
• Assistive Tech:
  • Digital communication (text-to-speech, online work/school) is increasingly empowering and inclusive.

12. Looking Forward—Hopeful Change (42:38)

• Progress Exists:
  • Dr. Jones is optimistic: attitudes are improving, understanding is spreading, and each conversation helps reduce stigma.
  • Jones: “Over time, we are becoming more accepting of differences...I really do think that it’s going to get better. I’ve seen it getting better for a lot of autistic people I know.” (42:38)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Neurodiversity is human diversity.” (Steve Burns at 44:30 & recurrent theme)
• “If we reduce stigma, we can make their life a little better. Right?” — Desiree Jones (43:52)
• On Masking:
  • “You can’t always be fully yourself...Neurodivergent people feel like that pretty much, like, all the time...It’s called masking.” — Jones (10:04)
• On Acceptance:
  • “Accepting your child for who they are, especially who they are now, not who you hope they'll be in the future.” — Jones (35:49)
• On Hope:
  • “I just really believe in the best in people...I really do think that it's going to get better.” — Jones (42:38)
• On Media Representation:
  • “Autistic people have often been portrayed as...aloof and cold, when in reality many...avoid interactions because they face so much discrimination and bullying.” — Jones (26:41)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 05:10 – Jones defines neurodivergence and neurodiversity
• 08:10 – Strengths and challenges of neurodivergence
• 10:04 – The concept and exhaustion of masking
• 11:39 – Rising diagnoses: why now?
• 16:19–19:46 – Diagnosis bias: race, gender, masking in marginalized communities
• 20:00 – Overlap of autistic and queer identities
• 23:00 – The 'Double Empathy Problem' explained
• 25:32 – Stereotypes and the television-autism pipeline
• 27:00 – Is stigma shrinking or changing?
• 35:49 – Dr. Jones' advice: Acceptance, advocacy, love
• 39:32 – Technology, online communities, and risk
• 42:38 – Hopes for a more inclusive future

Tone & Atmosphere

• Open, reflective, and at times gently humorous (“I wanted to be a mime.”)
• Respectful curiosity and a focus on lived experience
• Supported by personal anecdotes and research
• Invites active listener self-reflection (“If we’re all unique, doesn’t that mean being unique is normal?” – Steve Burns at 44:30)

Final Takeaways

• Neurodiversity is a fundamental aspect of being human and should be understood as such.
• Stigma and misdiagnosis, particularly for marginalized people, remain systemic challenges.
• Masking is a coping strategy, but an exhausting and often necessary one—structural and attitudinal change are needed.
• Acceptance, advocacy, and love are pillars for supporting neurodivergent individuals.
• Technology is a double-edged sword but can be deeply empowering.
• Progress is real, and hope is warranted—the future can be more inclusive if we keep listening, learning, and adapting.

“Difference isn’t necessarily deficit. There are, in fact, circumstances in which the things that make us different are also the things that make us strong.”
— Steve Burns (44:30)