Faith and the Purpose of Life with Rainn Wilson

Summary

Podcast Summary

Alive with Steve Burns

Episode: "Faith and the Purpose of Life with Rainn Wilson"

Date: December 3, 2025
Host: Steve Burns
Guest: Rainn Wilson (actor, author, founder of Soul Pancake)

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Overview

In this contemplative and humorous episode, Steve Burns delves into the nature of faith, spirituality, and the human search for purpose with guest Rainn Wilson. The two explore what faith really means, how it is shaped by doubt and suffering, the pros and cons of organized religion, and the universal call toward service and community. Rainn draws on his background in the Baha'i faith, as well as his work on spiritual topics, to offer nuanced insights—balancing skepticism and wonder in a conversation that’s as thoughtful as it is accessible.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Defining Faith and the Tension of Belief

• Steve’s Initial Take [00:18–03:25]:
  • Faith is often labeled “belief without evidence,” but Steve prefers to see it as “a sacred belief...in something, not in spite of a lack of evidence, but almost because of it.”
  • He admits to struggling with faith: “There’s a skeptical side of me...but I can’t deny...a pull toward something larger.”

    “I carry that tension...between those two ideas. And the older I get, the more important that tension feels.” —Steve [02:58]

Rainn’s Story: Spiritual Curiosity & Growing Up Baha’i

• Childhood and Inquiry [06:33–09:29]:
  • Rainn grew up surrounded by diverse faiths, readings, and meditative practices as a Baha’i in Washington State.
  • Later, in young adulthood, he rejected his childhood faith to “experience life on life’s terms” as an artist in New York.
  • Quote:

    “I’ve always been metaphysically curious...I always wanted to go deeper. That’s what she said.” —Rainn [06:33]

Essence of the Baha’i Faith

• Core Beliefs [09:41–11:31]:
  • One God, “the unknowable essence”—not a patriarchal being but the source of all life and creativity.
  • All major faiths are seen as chapters in the same spiritual book, with Baha’u’llah as the latest messenger.
  • Focus on service to humanity and spiritual growth.
  • Quote:

    “As a Baha’i, I’m also a Jew, I’m also a Buddhist, I’m also a Christ, because it’s all part of one faith that is ever revealing chapters of the same religion.” —Rainn [10:36]

Mystery and Limits of Consciousness

• Why Do We Seek the Unknowable? [11:40–14:54]:
  • Consciousness is the primal mystery—science can’t yet explain it.
  • Love is another unquantifiable mystery, pointing to something transcendent.
  • Quotes:

    “Love is a mystery, consciousness is a mystery...And to me, that’s not God, but it’s a finger pointing to the unknowable essence.” —Rainn [20:19]
    “The mystery of consciousness...is the first step on the path of the mystery of just being alive.” —Rainn [14:52]

Faith, Doubt, and the Problem of Religion

• Reconciling “Sacred Unknowing” with Human Failings [21:22–30:38]:
  • Steve is drawn to faith but wary of abandoning skepticism.
  • Religion can both uplift and cause immense harm when faith hardens into certainty and institutions.
  • Rainn distinguishes between spiritual core and corruptible human organizations.
  • Quote:

    "Have they thrown the spiritual baby out with the religious bathwater?...There are pure, beautiful universal ideas at the heart of all the world’s faiths...service, ethics, morality...” —Rainn [24:27]

The Cycle of Spiritual Renewal & the Human “Insistent Self”

• Prophetic “Software Updates” [28:10–33:31]:
  • Faiths are periodically refreshed by new prophets because humanity inevitably corrupts original messages.
  • Baha'i metaphor: Satan as the “insistent self”—the ego’s relentless desire for more.
  • Quote:

    “Satan is the insistent self.” —Abdul Baha (shared by Rainn) [32:16]
    “What is that insistent self? I want more attention, more power, more status...It’s that struggle—that’s the greater jihad and that’s the struggle with Satan.” —Rainn [32:36]

Mysticism and Direct Encounter

• Faith as an Experience Beyond Intellect [33:43–37:22]:
  • Faith is likened to a “bubble”—a mystery that shatters on contact with certainty.
  • Mystical branches (e.g., Sufi Islam) pursue direct experiences of the divine.
  • Love and faith are “something you experience...not something you write a thesis about.”
  • Quote:

    “God is like love. It’s something you experience...Of course, we need to have some intellectual connection, but love isn’t something that we write a thesis about. It’s something you feel.” —Rainn [36:30]

Doubt as Integral to Faith

• Faith’s Fragility and Necessity of Doubt [41:21–44:09]:
  • Citing Thomas Merton: “Faith is not the suppression of doubt, it is the overcoming of doubt.”
  • Authentic faith passes through real doubt and suffering.
  • The problem of suffering: how do we reconcile injustice and pain with belief in a loving God?
  • Quote:

    “Faith is like a very fragile willow tree that bends...and there are times of great doubt when dealing with faith.” —Rainn [41:25]

Is Faith Required for Morality?

• Service, Morality, and Atheism [45:08–48:57]:
  • Rainn agrees that faith is not necessary for morality:

    “I agree with you a thousand percent. And no, faith is not necessary [for a moral life].” —Rainn [46:04]

  • Compassion and altruism can exist independent of religion.
  • Spirituality (and religious teachings) can help “tamp down those baser impulses” guiding us toward serving others.

On Service as Worship

• Service Across Traditions [49:36–52:07]:
  • Service is a universal principle—central in Buddhism and Baha’i ("work in the spirit of service is worship in the eyes of God").
  • Service need not be grand; it can be found in everyday work and relationships.
  • Quote:

    “Work in the spirit of service is worship in the eyes of God.” —Rainn [50:45]

Faith, Community, and Its Risks

• Community as Double-Edged [52:07–55:59]:
  • Faith-based communities often provide care, connection, and practical support that secular culture struggles to match.
  • The early Christian church cited as a model for transcending tribal divisions.
  • However, group faith can foster both great good and great harm.

Faith, Suffering, and Facing Death

• Faith at Life’s End [57:11–59:41]:
  • Suffering and mortality often drive people to faith.
  • Rainn encourages hope for eternal continuation of the soul, distinguishing this from the “hopelessness” atheism can bring.
  • Quotes:

    “The journey’s eternal, man...you are a soul...and you’re moving on to go ever, ever closer to the unknowable essence...” —Rainn [57:56]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Tension of Skepticism vs. Faith:

  “The older I get, the more I am re-evaluating all of that. But I see all kinds of problems with it...It’s always something with two blades on it, right?” —Steve Burns [22:50]

• Rainn on Service:

  “What about politicians? Remember when the idea was...that they were public servants? We just don’t see that anymore...Maybe it’s naive to think of politicians as public service.” —Rainn Wilson [51:08]

• On Corruption of Pure Ideas:

  “Here’s an idea of how to achieve economic justice, and then it just gets warped into the worst economic injustice known to man.” —Rainn Wilson [29:54]

• Faith and Death:

  “One of the benefits of faith is a deeper understanding of, hey, there is purpose and meaning here, and it is beyond this physical realm.” —Rainn Wilson [59:30]

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Segment Timestamps

• Defining Faith & Skepticism: [00:18–03:25]
• Rainn’s Upbringing & Entry Point to Faith: [06:33–09:29]
• Essence and Universality of the Baha’i Faith: [09:41–11:31]
• Consciousness & Love as Mysteries: [11:40–21:22]
• Problem of Religion and Institutional Corruption: [21:22–30:38]
• Mysticism vs. Religion: [33:43–37:22]
• Role of Doubt in Faith: [41:21–44:09]
• Morality Without Faith: [45:08–48:57]
• Service as Core Principle: [49:36–52:07]
• Faith & Community: [52:07–55:59]
• Faith and Facing Death: [57:11–59:41]

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Final Reflections

Steve and Rainn close by recognizing that both truth and faith serve unique purposes—one holding us to evidence, the other inviting us into mystery and wonder. Rainn promotes his new Soul Boom Workbook as a tool for personal and spiritual growth.

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Tone Snapshot

Reflective, respectful, funny, and honest:
The conversation moves fluidly between intellectual rigor, spiritual yearning, and gentle humor—inviting listeners to join the big messy search for meaning.

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Suggested for Listeners Who...

• Are curious about the boundaries between skepticism and belief
• Want to hear honest, searching dialogue about religion (without dogma)
• Appreciate thoughtful takes on service, ethics, and community
• Enjoy Rainn Wilson’s unique blend of humor and sincerity on spiritual growth

Transcript

[Promo Host]

Lemonade.

[Steve Burns]

Hey, good to see you. Here you are. Come on in. Welcome to Alive. Okay. Got another big question for you today. How do you define faith? Yeah. Yeah.

[Rainn Wilson]

I am making tea.

[Steve Burns]

Do you want some tea? I think one definition of faith that's maybe a little. A little reductive is that it is belief without evidence. Right. And let's be honest, that's something we do all the time. A huge portion of our lives. Lives is. Rests on assumptions that we can't prove. You know, like. Like the idea that tomorrow is a thing. That's a kind of faith. Right. But the word itself points to something deeper. Right. Like it's capitalized capital faith. It's a belief. Yeah. But a sacred belief. It's believing in something not in spite of a lack of evidence, but almost because of it, if that makes sense. Here you go. And if I'm being really honest with you, this is something I struggle with and have for quite a while because there's a skeptical side of me that believes that our assumptions should scale with available evidence. Right. But I can't deny the other side. I can't deny that there's a pull that I feel toward something larger that I cannot and will not ever be able to explain. And I carry that tension, you know, between those two ideas. And the older I get, the more important that tension feels. So I think it's worth asking, what is faith really? What do you think?

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah.

[Steve Burns]

Interesting. Let's go. Okay. All right. So today I am thrilled because Rainn Wilson is stopping by. He is an actor, comedian, and author, but he's best known as TV's Dwight Schrute on NBC's the Office. Absolute legend, but he's way bigger than Scranton. He's a three time Emmy nominee, co founder of the digital media company Soul Pancake and author of the New York Times bestseller the Bassoon King. And also he is the author of a book that I like very much called Soul why We Need a Spiritual Revolution. And I believe there's a sequel to this book coming out November 4th called the Soul Boom Workbook, which is kind of an interactive workbook, workbook, as I understand it, for spiritual seekers and creatives and. And you can journal in it and there's projects and it sounds like a very, very, very cool thing. But I love Rain. I got to speak to him in depth on his podcast Soul Boom earlier this year, and I found him to be hilarious, but also a true seeker to the degree that people are living an examined life. He is doing that. I believe that in a Very embodied way. And it's something that I frankly admire. Oh, and he is here. Well, hello, Rain.

[Rainn Wilson]

Steve Burns, as I live and breathe.

[Steve Burns]

We meet again, sir. Oh, yes. Oh, please don't touch the glass. You'll get fingerprints all over it and that will. And I know you to be greasy and oleaginous.

[Rainn Wilson]

I don't know what that means.

[Steve Burns]

Yes, you do. Yes, you do.

[Rainn Wilson]

Hi.

[Steve Burns]

Thank you for being here.

[Rainn Wilson]

Hi, Steve. Big fan. First. First time caller.

[Steve Burns]

It is really nice to see you again. I just want to say that I really had a great time on your pod. I thought that was a. Just a wonderful conversation that went by too fast in a lot of ways. So thanks.

[Rainn Wilson]

It was a gorgeous conversation. The audience just loved you, really responded to your story and it was a really beautiful melding of kind of what I'm trying to do and what you're trying to do. So thank you for being a part of Soul Boom. And I'm so happy to be on your new thing.

[Steve Burns]

Well, look, I was thrilled to be there and I love what you're trying to do. Honestly, I think that. I just think it's. I just think it's great. And were you always like this? Were you always this sort of depth bomb human being? Were you always concerned with these enormous questions like how did you get here?

[Rainn Wilson]

Well, there's a number of levels to that question and that story. I would say yes. I've always been metaphysically curious. It's never just been enough for me to kind of like, hey, try and live a nice life and yeah, be a good guy, don't hurt anybody and enjoy and have some nice hobbies and a career. I always wanted to go deeper. That's what she said. And the. But part of the reason that is, is I grew up a member of the Baha' I faith.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah.

[Rainn Wilson]

And when you grow up a Baha', I, you're reading quotes from the Buddha and from the Bible and from the Hebrew Bible and from the Quran and, you know, a lot of big questions about the soul and the meaning of life and God and purpose. And so I grew up, you know, listening to and reading these kind of metaphysical workspraying, singing, meditating. This was part of our home life. We would have Buddhist monks over and born again Christians over and, you know, spiritual seekers over at our house in the 70s and in Olympia, Washington and Seattle, Washington. And so this was just in the groundwater of me growing up. So that's a, that's, that is a.

[Steve Burns]

Big part of it that tracks. Right. Okay, so you're like Little young Rain Wilson meditating with some soozen Buddhists on your shag rug in Washington State? Yeah, okay.

[Rainn Wilson]

Exactly. Yep.

[Steve Burns]

Was there, like a moment, though, that you can recall, like when you were a little. Little kid where you thought, oh, h. I think I am deeply concerned with questions that exceed my capacity to understand them with reason, you know? Did you have a moment where you kind of turned inward that you can recall?

[Rainn Wilson]

Well, I. Not as a child.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah.

[Rainn Wilson]

I think I was like a little born again Baha' I as a kid. Like, I was very into my faith and going to Baha' I summer camp and winter camp and youth activities and prayer gatherings and so. Which was great, you know. No, no harm there. I think when I was 20, 21, moving to New York City to become an actor, that's when things started to go a little cockamamie for me. And I rejected my faith of my childhood and kind of wanted to experience life on life's terms. I just wanted to be an artist. I wanted to be an actor, much like yourself moving to New York in the 90s to be an actor. And although I'm a little older than you, and that's when things got a little more complicated.

[Steve Burns]

Well, before we get to that, can you tell us a little bit about Baha' I for people who don't understand the Baha' I faith? Sure.

[Rainn Wilson]

So the Baha' I faith, to. To boil it down to its essence, believes that there's only one God.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah.

[Rainn Wilson]

This God is not a man with a beard who's judgmental. It's not. That's not patriarchal. It's not humanoid. This is. In the Baha' I faith.

[Steve Burns]

The.

[Rainn Wilson]

The main term for God is the unknowable essence. So we are in service to the unknowable essence that is the source of all life and creativity. And this essence wants humanity to grow spiritually. So every 500 or thousand years or so, he, she, it, they send down a great spiritual teacher. We know a lot of these teachers.

[Steve Burns]

Like.

[Rainn Wilson]

The Buddha, Krishna, Mohammed, Moses, Jesus, and Baha' is believe in all of these spiritual traditions and teachers and holy books and also believe that there is a new divine teacher for this day and age who goes by the title of Bahaullah. He lived in Persia and the Middle east in the 19th century and wrote hundreds of books and tablets and prayers. So as a baha' I'm also a Jew, as a baha' I'm also a Buddhist, as a Baha' I'm also a Christ, because it's all part of one faith that is ever revealing Chapters of the same religion. And the latest chapter is this beautiful revelation of Bahaullah. And Baha' is simply try and be in service to humanity into the world, do the right thing and try and make the world a better place. That's basically it.

[Steve Burns]

Well, I like all that. What did you say? You are in service to the unknowable essence. Is that what you said?

[Rainn Wilson]

I. That is true, yes.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah. Why are we compelled to believe in something we can't know?

[Rainn Wilson]

Well, there's an essential mystery, I think, at the heart of being alive. There's several. I'll start with one. And that is the mystery of consciousness itself. So here we are, I'm sitting in Ventura county, you're sitting in the mountains of New York State somewhere, and we're connected by a stream of electrons and wi fi. I don't even know. I'm not going to pretend to know how that works.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah, it's satellites and electricity and gnomes. I think there's gnomes working on this that are helping us.

[Rainn Wilson]

A few gnomes along the way. Yes. And we're discussing the meaning of life and being a human being. And we are new friends and we greatly respect each other. We have warm feelings for each other in our hearts. As I look at you, I also am pinged with memories of blues clues and the wonderful times I had with my son watching the reruns and how warm you were and interesting and mesmerizing and safety creating. Well, it's true. And now you're doing the same thing in a conversation. And as I'm speaking to you, my ears work, my eyes work. I'm having a 3D experience that involves emotions, memory, intellect, imagination, and a heightened, elated, heart filled sense of being alive. And this is the mystery of consciousness. Now to the materialists, this is simply a matter of brain waves and neural transmissions and, you know, neurochemicals. But when you say that to 98% of people, they're like, yeah, but it's so much more. And I know that there's neurons and neurochemicals, but my experience of breathing and feeling and loving and connecting and creating art is so much richer than that. So there is an essential mystery of just being alive that no one can figure out whatsoever. And this is where faith starts. They've been doing brain scans about consciousness for 40 years. No one knows any more today than they knew 40 years ago. You can kind of see a little blurb of oh, when you're feeling this, maybe it kind of is over here, but actually it's Kind of over here. And when you have a memory, this kind of happens. But sometimes this kind of happens and this kind of mystery of consciousness to me is the first step on the path of the mystery of just of being alive.

[Steve Burns]

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[Steve Burns]

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[Steve Burns]

Well, how do you know?

[Rainn Wilson]

Like why Steve? Steve, why do we have it? We don't need it.

[Steve Burns]

Consciousness.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah, we don't need this.

[Steve Burns]

We don't need consciousness. You mean self awareness? Like the like reflexive consciousness? Like I know that I am like that kind of consciousness or do you.

[Rainn Wilson]

Mean like I'm the totality of consciousness? Creativity, love, memory, will, volition, emotion. Like we, we could have simply been the next level of like chimpanzee or ape or orangutan and had a slightly bigger brain pan than them. And yet we have been given so much more that we absolutely do not need to procreate the species.

[Steve Burns]

Okay, but just because we don't know something doesn't make it sacred. Just because we can't complete the sentence doesn't make it a meaningful mystery. You know what I mean? It could just be a gap in our understanding that we're chasing. What do you say to that argument?

[Rainn Wilson]

I would say that the materialists have been arguing that for a very long time and they're not getting even an iota closer to having an understanding of consciousness. But let me take you a step further. So there's consciousness number one. But the next step or parallel to consciousness is love. Love is something that cannot be measured. It can't be quantified, it can't be contained, it can't be described, it can't be found on any mri. And it is. It exists on so many different levels. It exists. There's love of nature, there's love of our children, of our spouse, a romantic partner. There's romantic love, there's friendship, love like you and I are developing.

[Steve Burns]

Turn on your heart light.

[Rainn Wilson]

Oh, keep going, keep going.

[Steve Burns]

Let it shine wherever you go. All right, sorry.

[Rainn Wilson]

The. But again, there's this other mystery of what is love? And yes, maybe someday there's an algorithm, a program, a lab experiment, an mri, a brain scan that goes, ah, there is love. We've figured it out from exactly what neuron, exactly what chemicals and dopamines and are being released. But I highly doubt that to be the case because these experiences are transcendent and you can rationalize it all you want, but just go talk to someone about it and they'll be like, love is a mystery, consciousness is a mystery. And why we're here and everything around us and how it all effortlessly works and ties together is also a transcendent mystery. And to me, that's not God, but it's a finger pointing to the unknowable essence that we discussed earlier.

[Steve Burns]

I get that. And in full disclosure here, Rain, I have always. My whole life, right? This is, it's weird. On, on doing this podcast thing, I'm often talking to people about things I have never really talked to people about, which is, I think maybe, maybe a good thing. But my whole life I have been very tempted by faith, right? But I have always been impulsively, instinctively resistant to the idea. There's a skeptic side of me that really does want our assumptions to scale with our empirical knowledge. You know, our empirical knowledge about the universe should form our beliefs. That seems to be, to my brain, that seems to be the smart path forward. But I cannot deny that my whole life I have felt pulled, I have felt a gravity. I have perceived or sensed something more, something larger that I cannot explain. And yet surrendering to that in any way has always felt to me like, oh, well, that is a failure of your mind and you should not do that. But the older I get, the more I am re evaluating all of that. But I see all kinds of problems with it. Like, all kinds of problems with it. You know, sure. On one side, I talk to someone like you, and I get really into it. I'm like, yes, that sounds like exactly what the world is. But it's always something with two blades on it, right? It's always got two sharp sides. One side is, yes, this is what. These are the questions with which to concern yourself. In this world, is there something divine? Can I know that thing? How do I relate to that? What happens when I die? What happens in the meantime? And. And what is that sense that I perceive? But then there's also the other side, which is like, oh, when people organize around this idea of faith and believing in things for which they don't, evidence and they are so ardent and adhered to them. That's the most volatile and often destructive part of human history. So I feel like there's two sides to how do you reconcile that paradox?

[Rainn Wilson]

Well, I imagine a lot of people are listening to you right now, nodding their heads because the amount of trauma caused by religion, both on a global scale and on an individual level is, you know, undeniable wars in the name of an all loving God. You know, shalom means peace, Islam means peace.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah.

[Rainn Wilson]

And people are growing up in churches that shame them for being different than the norm. That talk about people dying and burning in hell for eternity. Like what a mean unknowable essence that would be if, like, exactly. Oh, you don't believe in, in this part of the church, you're going to burn in hell not for like three and a half years to teach you a lesson, but like forever. Eternal damnation. Like what a colossal misreading of the Bible, first of all, and you know, tool of fear to shame people and keep them down. So, so many people have rejected religion. And what I talk about in Soul Boom is like, have they thrown the spiritual baby out with the religious bathwater? Because there are pure, beautiful universal ideas at the heart of all of the world's faiths that have to do with service, they have to do with ethics and morals, they have to do with, you know, which is just doing the right thing and figuring out what that is. And you know, peace, connectedness, building community, transcendence, creativity, mutuality, like, and distilling these universals is what we have to put our focus on. I do think that there can be a lot of good that comes out of organized religion. And I do think we have lost something by spending 50 years rejecting organized religion. We've lost a lot having to do with community. But I certainly understand and no one likes hypocrisy. And time and time again you just see hypocritical, you know, beliefs. But I would say too, like, communism was the same way. Communism was this grand idea that the workers are going to share in the resources and the means of production. Great idea. But it's never even been remotely close to enacted. And I'm not advocating for communism necessarily, but there's, you know, there are some great grand ideas in the middle of it. And religion has great grand ideas that has not been close to being enacted. The life of Jesus has not been close to being enacted on an institutional level. But maybe we need to try and do that better without creating some kind of wacky cult.

[Steve Burns]

You were making A distinction between faith and religion, which is someplace I want.

[Rainn Wilson]

To go, or spirituality and religion. Yeah.

[Steve Burns]

I guess we were saying that faith is kind of this sacred belief or trust in that which is unknowable, at least on some level. And it's a leaning into this grand mystery, as you were saying. But it seems like when it becomes religious, that's when faith sort of hardens into these, like, totalizing ideologies that then go on to preach absolute certainty about the very things they admit that they cannot know. When that happens, are we taking what should be a meaningful encounter with mystery and just adding a bunch of human ideas to it, you know, sort of spoiling it with. With human impulse?

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah. There is a metaphor in the Baha' I faith that the reason that there's so many of these spiritual teachers is that they. When you look at Jesus's life and work and words, if you just read the Red Letter Bible and what he said and what he did, it is the most beautiful story you've ever seen in your life of someone who went always to the poorest and most rejected parts of the population, who served them selflessly, and washing their feet, you know, and healing the sick, going into where there's lepers, you know, and always talking about, you know, service to God and just loving neighbors and. And then, you know, then there's churches that grow up and there's bishops and there's rifts and there's different books of the Bible and then there's the, you know, I'm blanking on the name. And they all. Constantine has everyone meet in this. In that conference in the 3:30, and they, they, they reject certain books of the Gnostic Gospel. And they decide. And then. And then it becomes more and more, you know, it becomes part of the Roman Empire, and it's a Holy Roman Empire. And then the. The Pope can't be differentiated between power structures. And from a Baha' I perspective, this is why the Prophet Muhammad comes. Has become. He comes in the seventh century to refresh this, you know, devotion to God and purity and passion and, you know, religious transformation. But not long thereafter, there's a caliphate and power struggles and wars, and there's Shiite and Sunni and. And this is why the Baha' I faith comes, that these different faiths come to refresh this pure message because humanity is always going to corrupt it. But that's what I meant to say about communism. I didn't really finish my thought. There is that this pure thought gets corrupted by humanity. You know, right or wrong. I'm not here to debate communism. I'm just using it as an example of, like, here's an idea of how to achieve economic justice, and then it just gets warped into the worst economic injustice known to man. And when you're looking at the Catholic Protestant wars, you know, of the 15, 16, 1700s, I mean, it's some of.

[Steve Burns]

The worst.

[Rainn Wilson]

You know, humanitarian conflicts and gross massacres in human history between, you know, and we forget that, you know, people were just mowed down by the hundreds of thousands in those wars. So, yes, humanity corrupts what is pure. And it's a dance, you know, it's this dance. And we have. You know, it's funny, in Islam, they talk about jihad, right? But the. The greater jihad is. Which means, you know, struggle or holy war is within ourselves. The greater jihad, which is most of what the Quran is about, is about wrestling with oneself, you know, your higher nature, your lower nature, your angels and your demons. And the lesser jihad is like when your faith is being threatened from the outside and you have to kind of fight back against that. But that's always often misused in context. So just as we wrestle inside with our selfish desires, we also societally wrestle with our selfish desire desires in. Let me say one last little story. I love this story. So in the Baha' I faith, the son of the Prophet founder, whose name was Abdul Baha, came to the United States in the early 1900s. It was, you know, 1920 something. And someone asked him, hey, Abdul Baha, do Baha' is believe in Satan? And Abdul Baha said, yes. And the journalist was surprised and was like, oh, interesting. How. How does that work? And Abdul Baha said, satan is the insistent self. And I just love that. Like, what is that insistent self? Like, I want more attention, I want more power, I want more status, I want more pleasure. I want to be thought of better. I want to get my way. I want other people to do what I want. I want power. What. You know, it's that struggle that's the greater jihad and that's the struggle with Satan. But it's not a guy with red skin and a tail living in hell. Cackling. It's, it's. Yeah, like, it's not that guy.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah, I'm not Satan is what you're saying.

[Rainn Wilson]

Steve Burns is not Satan.

[Steve Burns]

Thank you, Rainn Wilson.

[Rainn Wilson]

But you get the idea. The, the. But I love that, the insistent self, because I think about that with myself all the time. I'm always wrestling with myself, with my ego. And, you know, this is another universal of faith. This goes to the heart of the Hindu tradition about, you know, the self is an illusion and conquering the self and seeing the self.

[Steve Burns]

Buddhism. Yeah.

[Rainn Wilson]

Buddhism as well.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah. First of all, you said a lot of amazing things there. I love the idea that these prophets show up every, I don't know, half a millennia or something as a software update.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah.

[Steve Burns]

For our understanding of how to be nice to each other. It often seems that way, you know.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah.

[Steve Burns]

Like it's a technology. Like, they showed up and they were like, you guys got the wheel. You have bronze now. Bronze is good. That's going to help. Here is love. Here is altruism. Play with that for a while. Right. And then we just immediately screwed it up. But, yeah, that. You've got me thinking now, Rainn Wilson, which is why I'm very glad you're here now. I kind of see faith, at least in my mind right now, is a bubble. Right. It's a bubble that I. That maybe as people, we can perceive but cannot directly know. And as soon as we try to touch it with human means, corrupt human understanding, it pops and explodes and makes a mess. You know, I feel like that is sort of what they mean by mysticism. Although I think I'm maybe getting that wrong. Like a direct unders. A direct perception with. With something larger than you that supersedes and transcends your intellectual ability to understand that encounter. Did that make any sense at all?

[Rainn Wilson]

It made total sense.

[Steve Burns]

Okay.

[Rainn Wilson]

That's the. The Sufi branch of. Of Islam is the mystical branch that is saying that, hey, we don't need mullahs to interpret the Quran for us. We don't need to just memorize the Quran and say it by rote. We can have mystical, transcendent experiences through being a whirling dervish, through chanting, through writing poetry like Rumi, you know, through, you know, giving up our material means being in contemplation and meditation, service to the poor. These are things that we can have a direct experience of God. In fact, there's a great book you should check out. It's called the Experience of God Being Consciousness Bliss by David Bentley Hart. And it's very difficult to read. It's a thick one. But it is really a gorgeous exploration of, again, the experience of faith. It's. It's. It. And this is hard. Like, we have to allow the cognitive idea of faith. And you, you came up with a beautiful metaphor there. But God is like love. It's something you experience. You know, it's you. Of course, we need to have some kind of intellectual connection to it, but Love isn't something that we write a thesis about. It's something you feel, it's something you live. And then you have a child and you love that child and the child gets sick and you'll do anything for it. And that's love. Love is going to the Costco or the Rite Aid at three in the morning to get, you know, cough syrup and staying up all night, you know, with a cold rag. And if we increase that love to be just from our children and our immediate loved ones to, you know, a greater and greater sphere than you mentioned altruism earlier, it's setting aside our own selfish needs, you know, for the needs of the greater. And that is a spiritual impulse that goes against animal evolution because animal evolution simply would be like, well, we've got to take just care of ourselves and our pack. Why would we ever be altruistic for people outside of ourselves?

[Steve Burns]

Yeah, I think a lot of people are unfortunately sort of reevaluating and revisiting that question a lot right now.

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[Steve Burns]

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[Steve Burns]

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[Rainn Wilson]

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[Steve Burns]

I want to talk to you about doubt as it relates to faith. I know you and I both dig to Thomas Merton. Thomas Merton is an amazing, amazing, I guess you would say. He's a Catholic mystic, I guess is what you would say. But he's also just a brilliant thinker and a philosopher and a gorgeous writer. The words are always so good. I don't think this is the direct quote, but he said something like, faith is not the suppression of doubt, it is the overcoming of doubt. And the only way to overcome doubt is by going through doubt. My question for you is, do you think real faith has to pass through real doubt?

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah, I think one of the wrong headed ideas about faith is that it is like solid and immovable. You know, they talk about like faith like a rock, faith like a mountain, you know, and faith is like a very fragile willow tree that bends, you know, and has to have flexibility. And there are times of great doubt when dealing with faith. Absolutely. And you know, I know so many people that have been had firm faith and then something just horrific happens to them and their family. You know, their daughter gets brain cancer at age 12 and then all of a sudden they're like, wait a second, I believed in God, I was in church, I was active and now this happened. Like, are you kidding me? Yeah, like, how can there be, you know, this goes to this idea of like, you know, this one philosophical concept of like, how can there be so much suffering in the world, especially to innocent people and also have there be, you know, a God. I forget the name of it. I should know the name of it. It's a series of arguments and discussions around this issue. You know, if we are, as Father Teilhardt de Chardin says, we are spiritual beings having a human experience, why is there so much suffering? And why is there an earthquake and a school collapses and 300 innocent children die? You know, what is it about this world? Why does it work this way?

[Steve Burns]

Yeah, and this goes back to what I was trying to say earlier is if faith is this attempt to perceive, if not understand, the unknowable, and we believe in this even though we don't know. Right. Even though we admit that we don't know, then why. Where do we get off making all of these sort of very human intellectual presuppositions about that thing like. Like that it's benevolent in some way. You don't know. You don't know that there. That that force that you perceive is indifferent, malevolent or benevolent like you don't know. You just admitted that you don't know definitionally, by nature of having FAI it. So why do we then sit back and say, but I do know that it's. That it's healthy. You know, I do know that this is a good thing. I never got that part.

[Rainn Wilson]

Well, I do know that every spring the sun stays in the sky longer and grasses grow and buds bloom from trees and birds return, and there is a cycle of growth and renewal that is gorgeous and healing and inspiring. And I do know that when winter comes, the trees die and the worms go away and the birds leave and the land becomes barren and doesn't produce any fruit. And I'm sounding very much like Chauncey Gardner from being there all of a sudden. Yes, But I do know these. I experience these things. So I imagine the idea of birth, death, renewal, life, and the miracle of life also works for humanity.

[Steve Burns]

God, I love you, Rainn Wilson. That was a very, very beautiful answer. All right, I'm just going to hit you with some of the old chestnuts. All that stuff you said about Jesus and all of the cool stuff he did, and all of these things that you mentioned as part of your Baha' I faith, which sounds so beautiful to me, I feel like we could do those without believing in things, without evidence. I feel like those can exist and that we can live our lives that way, adhering strictly to reason. I don't see any reason to hold a belief that I cannot prove in order to do those things. Is faith necessary to live a moral and ethical life.

[Rainn Wilson]

I agree with you a thousand percent. And no, faith is not necessary.

[Steve Burns]

Interesting.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah. I think that some of the greatest people who've done the greatest good on this planet earth are atheist or agnostic and simply are trying to do in their hearts what they feel are the right thing and want to relieve suffering. And you don't need to be a Buddhist to witness suffering, see how suffering emerges, and want to reduce suffering in others. We all are hardwired to certain degrees for compassion. I believe that compassion is a spiritual virtue that can be cultivated and that it comes from a more eternal part of ourselves than just our reasonable brains. Because again, why would I sacrifice my own comfort and my own, the important things of my life to reduce the suffering of others? That doesn't make sense. There is that altruistic urge that I believe is divine, But I know lots of people that live in that space that, that, that don't. I do think for the mass of people. You know, our brains. Our brains are essentially like in three chunks. Right. The very base part of the brain is like this keeps us breathing, keeps the blood pumping, keeps the, you know, endorphins brushing and all, all that stuff working. And then right on top of that is the like the limbic system of like, fight, flight, anger response, sex, lust, procreation, power, greed, kind of emotional reactivity. And then we have the prefrontal cortex, which we know physiologically is kind of like more having to do with considering things and weighing options and allaying the needs of the limbic system for something more important. And I think the brain is a parallel to the spiritual experience and the spiritual experience and the spiritual guidance by the great spiritual teachers like the Buddha, like Krishna, like Jesus and Bahaullah are about how do we waylay or tamp down those baser impulses and allow our prefrontal cortex decisions to take the reins.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah.

[Rainn Wilson]

And. But do you need a faith based system to do that? I don't. I don't think you do.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah, right. I'm surprised. That's. That's a surprising answer. And I think. Yeah, I think that's really interesting. Talk to me. One of the things, I mean, I know very little about the Baha' I faith, but admittedly. But one of the things I do know about it that I think is wonderful is that it places service at the very center of it. What does service mean to you?

[Rainn Wilson]

Thanks. I think that service is in every spiritual tradition. One of the things that people greatly, greatly misunderstand about Buddhism is the service component people think of. There's a westernized version of Buddhism. That's all. It's very Eckhart Tolle. It's like just be in the moment, breathe, you know, witness non judgment, kind of Zen, you know, meditation, quelling anxiety, being at more peace and harmony in the world. And that's all important. That's all very important. But if you read the writings of the Buddha, go to the actual sutras, suttas and the Dhammapadas, it's all about reducing the suffering of others. You reduce your own suffering and you gain a clarity so that you can be of service to others. So service isn't just a Baha' I thing. One of the beautiful things in the Baha' I faith is that one of the kind of fundamental quotes is that work in the spirit of service is worship in the eyes of God.

[Steve Burns]

Whoa.

[Rainn Wilson]

Work in the spirit of service is worship in the eyes of God. So whatever it is, you're a garbage man. Are you a garbage man to get greedy and make a lot of money so that you can have a jet Ski? There's nothing wrong with having a jet Ski or making money or supporting your family. That's not what I'm saying. But also, can you be a garbage man to say, hey, I get to serve my community by taking the garbage away and get to know the neighbors and build community and. And be a part of a place that I love? You know, can we do the same with acting, with podcasting? Can. What about. What about politicians? Remember when the idea was of a politician was that they were public servants? We just don't see that any anymore. You know, politicians are power brokers. And, you know, maybe it's naive to think of politicians as public service, but so a school teacher, a nurse, no matter what it is you do, a car salesman. Like, how can we bring service into what we do? And that is worship. So worship is not just sitting in some church or temple or synagogue or something like that and having your hands and saying certain words and that that worship then includes service. And in fact, maybe it's the highest form of worship.

[Steve Burns]

Talk to me about faith as it relates to. To community. You were starting to go there. Is faith something that is best practiced in community? It feels like when a bunch of people get together and practice faith in the same way, that's both when the good stuff happens and when the sort of human C4 explosive, terrible stuff happens. So how do you think faith relates to community?

[Rainn Wilson]

Well, that's a great question. I was speaking to this woman once and she was talking about how she used to be a Methodist and she got sick of church and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And she said, but you know what I really miss is like, when I moved to this new community and I joined the Methodist church, like everyone from the church came over and knocked on my door and welcomed me. They brought me like fruit baskets. And then when I was sick, I had a surgery, like for two weeks. They brought over hot dishes every night. And I do think that there is an essence of community care that can come out of some kind of religious faith based environment that you just don't see in the secular world. You might say it exists in the secular world, but I'd love to see hard evidence of hot dishes being brought over to people. But let's dig a little bit deeper. One of the points I make in Soul Boom book is the early Christian faith perhaps was the first recorded a human experience where humanity came together not just as tribes, you know?

[Steve Burns]

Right, I read that in your book.

[Rainn Wilson]

Yeah. You had Jesus visiting the Samaritans. What it meant to be a Christian was just, you believe in the Father God and salvation and the Son Jesus, love one another. You read the Sermon on the Mount and the Lord's Prayer and you could be a centurion, a Roman centurion, you could be a former slave, you could be a prostitute, you could be a merchant, you could be Phoenician, you could be Turkish, you could be Egyptian, you could be Ethiopian. And they would all gather at these churches and pray and worship together. And as long as you had this kind of commonality of belief, you were all one tribe. That was the, maybe the first time in human history where all of these classes, genders, race, creeds, occupations were set aside for something greater. So at the center of faith is like, we are 7 billion human beings on the planet and we are all souls and we're all struggling and we're all suffering and we all have love in our hearts and we're trying our best. And we're spiritual beings having a human experience. We're one human family and let's bind together and help each other and work together and build community and make and bring those hot dishes and whatever it takes to uplift the downtrodden. And, you know, do you need God or faith to do that? I really think it helps. I think it helps because there's something beautiful and eternal inside each one of us and that helps us see beyond, you know, all of these, like really minute identity roles that we all have.

[Steve Burns]

I'd Love to talk about faith as it relates to death and to suffering. You just mentioned suffering. When I went through a period of pain in my life, it cracked me open, right? And I think this is a very common, relatable experience. It. It cracked me open and was agonizing, but let a lot of light in, I think, in my life. And there's a quote. I don't know who said it, but it's something like, God enters through the wound, you know, And I. I feel like that's true. A lot of people come to find faith in times of suffering and in times of great pain. And I'm wondering how that relates to the end of life. Is. Is. Is it more. Is it especially imperative to have faith, in your opinion, at the end of life? Is it especially useful to the dying?

[Rainn Wilson]

Well, I've had a number of friends die, and it's funny. The comedian Neil Brennan, I did his podcast A Funny Funny Guy. If you get the chance to see his comedy specials. Oh, so smart. And I was just talking about how a friend had passed away, and he just went sniper's alley. I was like, sorry, what? He's like, sniper's alley. Because you get in your 50s. Sniper's Alley. Bing, bing, bing. People just get picked off around you. And it really is. Yeah, good luck with that. And. But one thing that I've shared with people that are struggling with their mortality, and we did a show on soulpancake called My Last Days that was all about lessons from life from people at the end of life. And is, I say, hey, don't worry. The journey's eternal, man. This is. This. This 3D corporeal physical reality, man. This is just. This is a matrix illusion. We're just here for a flash, and we're continuing on the journey. You're a. You are a soul that is connected to a body for a few decades, and you're moving on to go ever, ever closer to the unknowable essence on various planes of existence. And so, you know, godspeed, you know, believe. I know this to be true, and I love sharing that with people, and it does give them hope. I do believe that one of the most difficult challenges of atheism is there is an inherent kind of hopelessness and meaninglessness in it, because at the end of the day, you're just an amalgam of molecules and atoms and electrical and chemical impulses, and that's it. Lights out, body dies, consciousness dies at the same time, and that's the end of the story. And it doesn't really matter or add up to anything. And I think that one of the benefits of faith is a. Is a deeper understanding of, hey, there is. There is purpose and meaning here, and it is beyond this physical realm.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah, I hear that.

[Rainn Wilson]

This is a heavy episode, dude.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah, I don't. I don't around, Rain. We're going for it here. Well, Rain, thank you for coming by. I. I adore speaking with you and I just love that you have this giant brain and that you are out there in the world thinking deeply about all the important things and sharing that with people. I really think that you are.

[Promo Host]

A.

[Steve Burns]

Model of living an examined life, which is what we're trying to make this whole podcast about.

[Rainn Wilson]

Well, you're very kind to say so. I'm a deeply flawed, mistake making human beings.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah.

[Rainn Wilson]

I'm not a guru or a spiritual teacher. I'm just kind of trying to further the conversation. And that's what we're trying to do with the Soul Boom Workbook. That it's a creative. It's got journaling you can draw. It's got multiple choice. It's about God, the soul, life, death, purpose, meaning, service to others, transforming the world, transforming yourself, mental health. It's all of it in a really interactive personal journal. And we're really excited to be sharing it with the world in November.

[Steve Burns]

So you mean, like, I can open it and there'll be, like, little tasks for me to do and like, here, draw a picture here or fill this in. Oh, that sounds genius, Rain. That sounds genius. This is great, by the way. I don't know if you guys have read this one yet, but this is pretty essential. And the Soul Boom Workbook sounds even more fun. I think more people should do that. More people should make interactive books. My favorite book when I was a kid was There's a Monster at the End of this book. Do you remember that book?

[Rainn Wilson]

Oh, I do. Yes. And he's the monster. Spoiler alert.

[Steve Burns]

Brilliant. And he was so mad at you. It was so good. Rain, thank you so much for being here. And it's always great to talk to you, and I hope we do it again soon.

[Rainn Wilson]

Thanks, Steve. Thanks for having me.

[Steve Burns]

Bye.

[Rainn Wilson]

Bye.

[Steve Burns]

Wow. Let's go outside. So it does sort of feel like true truth and faith are opposed in some way. Truth wants evidence. Faith wants you to proceed without it.

[Rainn Wilson]

Right.

[Steve Burns]

But maybe there is some sort of balance in that tension. You know, like maybe one opens us up and one keeps us grounded. Honestly, I have no idea. I have no idea. These are big questions. What's a belief that you continue to hold on to even though you know you can't prove it and why. Interesting. Very interesting. Well, listen. Thanks so much for listening and for coming by. And as always, I really appreciate it. And you look great. You do. Big stick. Alive with Steve Burns is a Lemonada Media original. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now's the perfect time. You can listen to the show completely ad free, plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content from me as I reflect on this episode. Just press subscribe on Apple podcasts, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app, or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. That's lemonadepremium.com Alive is hosted by me, Steve Burns, and produced by Jeremy Slutskin. Our editor is Christopher Champion Morgan. Our associate producer is Akshay Tharabailu. Audio engineering by James Sparber. Lemonada's SVP of weekly programming is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Jessica Cordover, Kramer, Stephanie Whittles, Wax and me. We'll see you next week. And you look great, by the way.

[Promo Host]

Are you Team Batman or Spider Man? Is the ultimate dish pizza or tacos? Smash Boom. Best will help settle those debates. And so many more. Every episode we take two cool things, smash them together, and we see which one is best. Debaters use facts, jokes, stories, and more to argue for their side. And it's all judged by a teenager because who is better at judging than a teen? It's fun. It's weirdly informative. It's Smashboom Best. Get it? Wherever you get your podcasts.