Podcast Summary: "Is Play the New Work?" with Cas Holman

Alive with Steve Burns (Lemonada Media) — December 10, 2025
Guest: Cas Holman (Designer, Educator, Toy Inventor, Playground Builder)
Main Theme:
Exploring the essential role of play in human development, creativity, well-being, and adult life—why reclaiming a sense of play, wonder, and curiosity can be transformative, and actionable steps for adults to reconnect with their “play voice.”

Episode Overview

Steve Burns welcomes Cas Holman, internationally recognized for her work as a designer and advocate for the importance of play. Together, they challenge the notion that play is frivolous, arguing instead for its fundamental necessity at all stages of life—including adulthood. They discuss Holman’s new book, How Play Shifts Our Thinking, Inspires Connection, and Sparks Creativity, and examine how the habits and mindsets shaped by play can help adults adapt, create, and live more fulfilling lives.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Power and Definition of Play

• Defining Play:

  • Cas Holman distinguishes between types of play, focusing most on “free play”—open-ended, intrinsically motivated activity done for joy, not for winning or extrinsic rewards.
  • Quote [05:50]: “At its simplest, play is something that’s done for joy... Free play is open-ended, meaning there’s not a right or wrong way to do it.” – Cas Holman

• Free Play vs. Extrinsically Motivated Play:

  • Most adults have shifted toward outcome-driven behavior, making the experience of true free play rare as one ages.
  • As Holman notes, adults’ “muscles” for play atrophy because “we think we need to be doing something productive.” [08:36]

• Play as a Superpower:

  • Steve observes play and wonder are natural “superpowers” in children, expressing sadness that schools and systems teach them out of us:
  • Quote [09:15]: “We didn’t learn to wonder. We wondered to learn.” – Steve Burns

Schooling and Societal Pressures

• Education Squelching Curiosity:

  • By adulthood, the natural tendency to ask questions and embrace uncertainty is replaced with the pursuit of certainty and right answers.
  • Quote [10:26]: “Questions are supposed to have one answer… wonder and curiosity don’t live in right and wrong. They live in the experience.” – Cas Holman

• Valuing Certainty Over Wonder:

  • Uncertainty is scary for adults, leading to rigid routines and a focus on productivity at the expense of curiosity and openness to possibility [11:48].

The Benefits of Play in Adulthood

• Play as Comfort with Uncertainty:

  • Engaging in play builds comfort with ambiguity and failing, which translates into adaptability.
  • Quote [15:34]: “Play is comfort with uncertainty. That sounds real to me because that’s what kids do, right? The whole world is uncertainty, and the playground is their office.” – Steve Burns

• Reframing Success:

  • Holman argues that societal metrics of success (like productivity or financial gain) often devalue play, but reframing success to include well-being and joyful exploration leads to more engaged, innovative adults [17:58].

• Learning Through Play—The Scientific Process:

  • Adults who embrace “play testing” (experimenting openly and learning from failure) embody the scientific mindset and foster learning and growth [19:44].
  • Quote [19:42]: “In each experiment, success wasn’t that it worked. Success was that he learned from what didn’t work.” – Cas Holman

Why Adults Resist Play

• Outcomes, Productivity, and Judgment:

  • Adults are inhibited by the fear of looking silly, failing, or appearing unproductive.
  • Holman shares that in her play design (ex: Rigamajig), children joyfully experiment, while adults hang back due to fear and self-judgment [23:23].

• Beginner’s Mind:

  • Embracing a novice perspective (beginner’s mind) opens up possibilities, contrasting experts’ narrow focus [23:51].
  • Quote [23:52]: “In the beginner’s mind, there are a gadrillion possibilities. In the expert’s mind, there are a few.”

Play Types for Adults

Holman introduces adapted “play types” suited for grown-ups:

1. Meditative Play

• Activities like walking in the woods, meditating, or any embodiment that connects you to yourself [27:11].
• Related to “attention play”—being present and noticing, people-watching, or daydreaming [27:22].

2. Attention Play

• Letting yourself be bored, observing your environment, engaging your curiosity (vs. turning to your phone for distraction).

  • Phone as Play?:
    • Scrolling on your phone is not true free play; it’s consumption/entertainment, not generative play [29:20].
    • Quote [30:16]: "Entertainment is the world engaging with you. Play is you engaging with the world.” – Steve Burns
    • Holman sharpens: It’s not the world engaging with you, it’s something dictating your attention.

3. Creative Play

• Making things (music, art, stories) without concern for outcome or judgment [36:20].
• Highlights the importance of releasing self-criticism, embracing experimentation, and reframing what counts as “success.”
  • Quote [39:27]: “Release judgment, embrace possibility, reframe success.” – Cas Holman

Overcoming Barriers to Play

• Release Judgment:

  • The hardest but most essential step; adults are self-critical and wary of looking “silly” [40:19].

  • Holman suggests imagining your “play voice” and your “adult voice” and learning to respectfully listen to, and negotiate with, both [41:15]:

    “Some part of us…a play voice that tells us, ‘Your friend’s shoe is untied, go step on it!’…And the adult voice is trying to protect us: ‘No, you’ll look dumb.’… But listening to the play voice whenever possible.” – Cas Holman [42:56]

• Embrace Possibility:

  • Open up to discovery and experimentation, as children do.

• Reframe Success:

  • Let go of external metrics; success is the joy and growth experienced in play.

The Universality of the Play Voice

• Everyone has some innate play voice—though it may be faint or forgotten, it can be tuned back in by remembering childhood play or daring to experiment now [44:36].
  • Quote [45:39]: “Start with the play memory. Remember some part of how you played as a child … remembering what it felt like will help give you the… make you brave enough to try.” – Cas Holman

Practical Takeaways and Memorable Moments

• Everyone’s Play Voice Still Exists:

  • “Everyone has a play voice, and it’s still there. We just have to tune it in and listen.” – Steve Burns [51:43]

• Three Keys to Adult Play:

  • Release Judgment
  • Embrace Possibility
  • Reframe Success

• Recovering Wonder, Joy, and Resilience:

  • Especially in stressful times, play and wonder are not luxuries—they’re tools for sustaining hope, creativity, and social connection [47:47].

Notable Quotes & Segments with Timestamps

• The true power of play:
  • “Play is the work of childhood, and the playground is their office.” – Steve Burns [15:34]
• Reframing adult life:
  • “How can we make our work the play of adulthood?” – Steve Burns [52:02]
• On the necessary conditions for play:
  • “Right now in particular, because of stress, people think now’s not the time [for play]… but the more we play, the more we’ll be able to continue doing what we do, finding hope, connecting with joy.” – Cas Holman [47:27]
• Instructions to the listener:
  • Steve and listeners take a moment of silence to listen for their “play voices” [52:56–53:28]

Actionable Steps for Listeners

• Recall play memories from childhood to reconnect with intrinsic motivation [45:39].
• Experiment with meditative or attention play—walk without your phone, people-watch, or invent stories based on observations.
• Try something creative (draw, sing, write) with no expectation of outcome.
• When you catch your inner critic, acknowledge but don’t obey; let your play voice guide a small, joyful risk.
• Reframe daily tasks as opportunities for play or experimentation, especially when learning new things.

Tone and Closure

The conversation is playful, curious, and gently self-deprecating—encouraging vulnerability, risk-taking, and joy. Both Steve and Cas invite listeners to embrace “the silly,” practice noticing, and value the process above the product.

“We have a play voice. We just have to tune it in and listen.” — Steve Burns [51:43]

The episode ends with Steve inviting everyone to practice listening for their play voice—a fitting assignment in the spirit of wonder.

For adult listeners: Play isn’t just for kids—it’s the cornerstone of adaptability, connection, and living ‘alive.’ Next step? Go play.