Is Play the New Work with Cas Holman

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Is Play the New Work?" with Cas Holman

Alive with Steve Burns (Lemonada Media) — December 10, 2025
Guest: Cas Holman (Designer, Educator, Toy Inventor, Playground Builder)
Main Theme:
Exploring the essential role of play in human development, creativity, well-being, and adult life—why reclaiming a sense of play, wonder, and curiosity can be transformative, and actionable steps for adults to reconnect with their “play voice.”

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Episode Overview

Steve Burns welcomes Cas Holman, internationally recognized for her work as a designer and advocate for the importance of play. Together, they challenge the notion that play is frivolous, arguing instead for its fundamental necessity at all stages of life—including adulthood. They discuss Holman’s new book, How Play Shifts Our Thinking, Inspires Connection, and Sparks Creativity, and examine how the habits and mindsets shaped by play can help adults adapt, create, and live more fulfilling lives.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Power and Definition of Play

• Defining Play:

  • Cas Holman distinguishes between types of play, focusing most on “free play”—open-ended, intrinsically motivated activity done for joy, not for winning or extrinsic rewards.
  • Quote [05:50]: “At its simplest, play is something that’s done for joy... Free play is open-ended, meaning there’s not a right or wrong way to do it.” – Cas Holman

• Free Play vs. Extrinsically Motivated Play:

  • Most adults have shifted toward outcome-driven behavior, making the experience of true free play rare as one ages.
  • As Holman notes, adults’ “muscles” for play atrophy because “we think we need to be doing something productive.” [08:36]

• Play as a Superpower:

  • Steve observes play and wonder are natural “superpowers” in children, expressing sadness that schools and systems teach them out of us:
  • Quote [09:15]: “We didn’t learn to wonder. We wondered to learn.” – Steve Burns

Schooling and Societal Pressures

• Education Squelching Curiosity:

  • By adulthood, the natural tendency to ask questions and embrace uncertainty is replaced with the pursuit of certainty and right answers.
  • Quote [10:26]: “Questions are supposed to have one answer… wonder and curiosity don’t live in right and wrong. They live in the experience.” – Cas Holman

• Valuing Certainty Over Wonder:

  • Uncertainty is scary for adults, leading to rigid routines and a focus on productivity at the expense of curiosity and openness to possibility [11:48].

The Benefits of Play in Adulthood

• Play as Comfort with Uncertainty:

  • Engaging in play builds comfort with ambiguity and failing, which translates into adaptability.
  • Quote [15:34]: “Play is comfort with uncertainty. That sounds real to me because that’s what kids do, right? The whole world is uncertainty, and the playground is their office.” – Steve Burns

• Reframing Success:

  • Holman argues that societal metrics of success (like productivity or financial gain) often devalue play, but reframing success to include well-being and joyful exploration leads to more engaged, innovative adults [17:58].

• Learning Through Play—The Scientific Process:

  • Adults who embrace “play testing” (experimenting openly and learning from failure) embody the scientific mindset and foster learning and growth [19:44].
  • Quote [19:42]: “In each experiment, success wasn’t that it worked. Success was that he learned from what didn’t work.” – Cas Holman

Why Adults Resist Play

• Outcomes, Productivity, and Judgment:

  • Adults are inhibited by the fear of looking silly, failing, or appearing unproductive.
  • Holman shares that in her play design (ex: Rigamajig), children joyfully experiment, while adults hang back due to fear and self-judgment [23:23].

• Beginner’s Mind:

  • Embracing a novice perspective (beginner’s mind) opens up possibilities, contrasting experts’ narrow focus [23:51].
  • Quote [23:52]: “In the beginner’s mind, there are a gadrillion possibilities. In the expert’s mind, there are a few.”

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Play Types for Adults

Holman introduces adapted “play types” suited for grown-ups:

1. Meditative Play

• Activities like walking in the woods, meditating, or any embodiment that connects you to yourself [27:11].
• Related to “attention play”—being present and noticing, people-watching, or daydreaming [27:22].

2. Attention Play

• Letting yourself be bored, observing your environment, engaging your curiosity (vs. turning to your phone for distraction).

  • Phone as Play?:
    • Scrolling on your phone is not true free play; it’s consumption/entertainment, not generative play [29:20].
    • Quote [30:16]: "Entertainment is the world engaging with you. Play is you engaging with the world.” – Steve Burns
    • Holman sharpens: It’s not the world engaging with you, it’s something dictating your attention.

3. Creative Play

• Making things (music, art, stories) without concern for outcome or judgment [36:20].
• Highlights the importance of releasing self-criticism, embracing experimentation, and reframing what counts as “success.”
  • Quote [39:27]: “Release judgment, embrace possibility, reframe success.” – Cas Holman

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Overcoming Barriers to Play

• Release Judgment:

  • The hardest but most essential step; adults are self-critical and wary of looking “silly” [40:19].

  • Holman suggests imagining your “play voice” and your “adult voice” and learning to respectfully listen to, and negotiate with, both [41:15]:

    “Some part of us…a play voice that tells us, ‘Your friend’s shoe is untied, go step on it!’…And the adult voice is trying to protect us: ‘No, you’ll look dumb.’… But listening to the play voice whenever possible.” – Cas Holman [42:56]

• Embrace Possibility:

  • Open up to discovery and experimentation, as children do.

• Reframe Success:

  • Let go of external metrics; success is the joy and growth experienced in play.

The Universality of the Play Voice

• Everyone has some innate play voice—though it may be faint or forgotten, it can be tuned back in by remembering childhood play or daring to experiment now [44:36].
  • Quote [45:39]: “Start with the play memory. Remember some part of how you played as a child … remembering what it felt like will help give you the… make you brave enough to try.” – Cas Holman

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Practical Takeaways and Memorable Moments

• Everyone’s Play Voice Still Exists:

  • “Everyone has a play voice, and it’s still there. We just have to tune it in and listen.” – Steve Burns [51:43]

• Three Keys to Adult Play:

  • Release Judgment
  • Embrace Possibility
  • Reframe Success

• Recovering Wonder, Joy, and Resilience:

  • Especially in stressful times, play and wonder are not luxuries—they’re tools for sustaining hope, creativity, and social connection [47:47].

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Notable Quotes & Segments with Timestamps

• The true power of play:
  • “Play is the work of childhood, and the playground is their office.” – Steve Burns [15:34]
• Reframing adult life:
  • “How can we make our work the play of adulthood?” – Steve Burns [52:02]
• On the necessary conditions for play:
  • “Right now in particular, because of stress, people think now’s not the time [for play]… but the more we play, the more we’ll be able to continue doing what we do, finding hope, connecting with joy.” – Cas Holman [47:27]
• Instructions to the listener:
  • Steve and listeners take a moment of silence to listen for their “play voices” [52:56–53:28]

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Actionable Steps for Listeners

• Recall play memories from childhood to reconnect with intrinsic motivation [45:39].
• Experiment with meditative or attention play—walk without your phone, people-watch, or invent stories based on observations.
• Try something creative (draw, sing, write) with no expectation of outcome.
• When you catch your inner critic, acknowledge but don’t obey; let your play voice guide a small, joyful risk.
• Reframe daily tasks as opportunities for play or experimentation, especially when learning new things.

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Tone and Closure

The conversation is playful, curious, and gently self-deprecating—encouraging vulnerability, risk-taking, and joy. Both Steve and Cas invite listeners to embrace “the silly,” practice noticing, and value the process above the product.

“We have a play voice. We just have to tune it in and listen.” — Steve Burns [51:43]

The episode ends with Steve inviting everyone to practice listening for their play voice—a fitting assignment in the spirit of wonder.

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For adult listeners: Play isn’t just for kids—it’s the cornerstone of adaptability, connection, and living ‘alive.’ Next step? Go play.

Transcript

[Cass Holman]

Lemonade.

[Steve Burns]

Hello there.

[Cass Holman]

You are.

[Steve Burns]

Very, very good to see you. Come on in. Welcome to Alive. Okay. I have a very fun question for you today.

When was the last time.

You played?

No agenda, no goal, nothing to prove, just for the fun of it. Played.

And how did that feel?

Right. Yeah.

There's tea if you'd like some tea. Okay. Let's have some tea.

So here's the thing about play. I think it gets a bad rap. I do, because play feels extra. It feels frivolous. It feels like something you do instead of doing the thing that you're supposed to be doing. Right. I mean, it's fun, sure, but something about it feels extracurricular.

Here you go.

But the thing is.

I'm not buying it. I'm not.

Maybe it has something to do with my former gig, but to me, play feels important.

Does it? Feels like it's often the opposite of frivolous. There's a power. There.

Has something to do with wonder and something to do with curiosity mixed with joy at the same time.

[Cass Holman]

I don't know.

[Steve Burns]

It's difficult to define. But for me, there's something essential.

And perhaps forgotten about play. So my question for you today is, what. What is the power of play? What do you think?

Very interesting. Yes. Yes. Yes. Let's go.

Okay. Our guest today I'm very excited about is Cass Holman, who is a designer and educator, toy inventor, and playground builder. Something I aspire to, to be honest. She believes play is serious business and has spent years asking, what does play teach us about collaboration? What can children show adults about problem solving? And how might play be not just entertainment, but actual preparation for being an alive human being? Her work has been celebrated everywhere from the Museum of Modern Art to her new book, How Play Shifts Our Thinking, Inspires Connection, and Sparks Creativity. I read a good bit of this, and it's fantastic, actually.

Yeah. So the book itself explores why play isn't just, like, extra credit or extracurricular or what you're doing when you're not doing what you're supposed to be doing. But it's actually one of the most essential human instincts we've got. Oh, wait, she's here. All right.

Hey, Cass. Hi, Cass.

[Cass Holman]

Oh, hi. Hey. Hey.

[Steve Burns]

How you doing? What are you doing? You just. You just doing some.

[Cass Holman]

Yeah, I was just out wandering around. It's beautiful out here.

[Steve Burns]

Doing some hiking over there.

[Cass Holman]

I. I might have stepped in some bear poop.

[Steve Burns]

It's entirely possible. There. There is a smell. That's okay. I can't smell it. That's fine. And it's all part of nature anyway. But yeah. Yeah, it's like.

[Cass Holman]

Can you hang out?

[Steve Burns]

Yeah, let's hang out. Thanks for stopping by the porch. I'm glad. I'm glad you happened by.

[Cass Holman]

Yeah, there's some birds brought me this way. I was kind of just like following some moss. I don't know.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah, I tend to follow the moss. Follow the moss is like a really good. A really good sort of life strategy, I feel.

[Cass Holman]

That'll be the next book.

[Steve Burns]

Anyway. It's already delightful to speak to you and you and I do have some DNA in common.

You've made your work studying play. I've made my career sort of modeling it, you know.

There'S probably a lot of wonder as part of our job descriptions, you know.

[Cass Holman]

Yeah.

[Steve Burns]

And so I'm looking really forward to.

To hearing more of your perspective on the subject of play. But before we get super duper duper into it, let's get a little.

Let's get. Let's stay a little broad for the people who haven't worked in children's television or a playground design.

What's your best definition? What is play and why does it matter so much to adult human people?

[Cass Holman]

Yeah, play is extremely broad and means different things to different people. I think at its simplest, play is something that's done for joy.

Usually it's something that we're drawn to instinctively. The type of play that I design for and that the book is about is free play, which is different than sports or games or video games.

In that it is typically open ended, meaning that there's not a right or wrong way to do it. We're not playing in order to win or get a score or kind of level up. So there's kind of a difference between intrinsically motivated play or other activities and extrinsically motivated play. So extrinsic and extrinsic motivation might be again, like a score or in school we're extrinsically motivated with grades. A lot of times I think as adults, a lot of our lives are extrinsically motivated by.

Some devices that kind of are trying to inspire us or motivate us to get in more steps. Right. So even something that like is. Is assessing how much we're playing becomes its own extrinsic motivator and might make us a little bit less in touch with what we're intrinsically interested in doing.

So free play, and I borrow this definitely definition from play work, which is actually a profession of adults who work in playgrounds. We have a few in the US and we've. There are quite a few in the uk, but their definition of free play and kind of play in general is intrinsically motivated.

Freely chosen, and guided by instinct.

[Steve Burns]

I see. So free play is. Is less outcome oriented.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Right.

[Steve Burns]

And you're playing for the sake of playing.

[Cass Holman]

Yeah.

[Steve Burns]

Right. Now, is free play more of a kid thing or is that kind of something that adults also sort of do instinctively or what?

[Cass Holman]

I think children will free play without prompt. I think, you know, we see this with cardboard boxes. We see this when we put them out in nature and they're, you know, rearranging some sticks for hours, and then it becomes a Ford, and then they kind of play house on the Ford, and then they need to turn it into a lemonade stand so they find the sticks for the. Right. So it's just, they're kind of just. It's a flow. And adults, I think we spend a lot of our school years learning to not play and shifting our motivation and shifting our.

Priorities toward outcome. And so I think it gets harder and harder to. To. To free play because we think we need to be doing something productive. We get a little bit wrapped up in is. Is. Does this have value? And so it's kind of, for a lot of us, really hard to access what is intuitively motivated because we've, we've. It's just kind of a muscle that's maybe atrophied or we've, like, kind of learned to not listen to that.

[Steve Burns]

Well, let's, let's talk about that. I mean, y. Firmly believe that.

Play, that wonder, the ability to wonder, which I think is actually something even more than play. Right. You know, is inherent. I think it's a superpower of sorts that we're born with as babies in the same way that we're born with like a grasping instinct. You know, it's, it's. We absolutely need it because we know nothing when we're babies. We literally know nothing. So we have to wonder beyond what we understand to understand more. It's like we didn't learn to wonder. We wondered to learn. Right.

[Cass Holman]

So, yeah, wonder and curiosity feel. Feel intertwined in that way, for sure.

[Steve Burns]

But I, but, but I, I think it bums me out how effectively the school system sort of unlearns that for us. You know, there's, you know, much more about this than me, but I've heard a statistic where it's like little kids in preschool will ask a gazillion questions in a day, but by the time they're in Fourth grade, it's like two.

[Cass Holman]

Yeah.

[Steve Burns]

You know, and by the time they're in high school, they're like, leave me alone.

[Cass Holman]

Well, I think, yeah, they learned that questions are about answers and wonder and curiosity isn't necessarily about answers.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah.

[Cass Holman]

If you love learning and the world is changing quickly, you're all right. Right. You're very adaptable. So I like to separate learning and education because I don't think it's learning that kills play. I think that our systems for education, which is what most schools look like, are kind of. What kind of kill the curiosity and the play? Because questions are supposed to have one answer. Yeah, right. And wonder and curiosity don't live in right and wrong. They live in the experience.

Of witnessing, of being present and just kind of gazing at the stars or of what you can find in yourself when you're allowed to be bored.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah. What a bummer that is in a way.

[Cass Holman]

Yeah.

[Steve Burns]

What do you think that is? I mean, it seems clear to me that as adults there is value and tremendous value in valuing certainty. Right, I get it. But why does that have to happen at the expense of wonder? And why.

And why do we set up our education system to value one and sort of trivialize the other?

[Cass Holman]

Uncertainty is scary. And I think we like to think that we can fix things. I think we are problem solvers by nature and we perceive uncertainty as a problem to be solved. And it's not. We can't. One of the things that is really, I think, powerful about free play is that we're comfortable in uncertainty and in kind of looking at something and saying like, you know, well, what are all the different ways this could go? Those all relate to being more comfortable in uncertainty because we can't fix it. We can't change that. There's going to be uncertainty in life.

[Steve Burns]

Okay.

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[Steve Burns]

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[Steve Burns]

I love what you said about play is comfort with uncertainty. I dig that. I think that's right. That sounds real to me because that's what kids do, right? They don't know anything. So the whole world is uncertainty. And the adage is that play is the work of childhood and that the playground is their office and when they encounter uncertainty they instinctively invite it to play. Right? That's what they do. That's their methodology for I'm going to.

[Cass Holman]

Pick it up, I'm going to look at it, I'm Going to taste it, I'm going to smash it, I'm going to throw it. These are all ways of exploring a thing and trying to understand it without like needing to understand it. Right. They kind of want to get to know it, but they don't expect to then have mastered it. I think some of our, some of our adult hang ups with play is also the, the instinct to need to know things. So I think we also become less curious or, or less comfortable with uncertainty because we think that once we're done with school, we're done learning.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah. Well, why do you think.

Why do you think adults, specifically adults learn to devalue play? It sounds like. Because it sounds like what you're saying, everything you're saying sounds like it would be incredibly useful to an adult who faces uncertainty and who faces a difficult job and has to figure out a canva doc and has to do all of these things. So what happens to us?

[Cass Holman]

So priorities.

And the idea that we need to be productive.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah.

[Cass Holman]

And we don't value play, so we think that it's like, you know, oh, I don't have time to dilly dally. We gotta get there, you know, and it's. And so one of the things I talk about in the book is kind of reframing success. So we get stuck on ideas of what success is. Whether that's like, yeah, in your day, like success means I'm going to sit still for eight hours and answer emails. That's an idea we have of what our work day is supposed to look like. But that's not a very human thing.

And so if we prioritize our well being, which would also mean playing, letting yourself dilly dally, go rearrange your shelf of knickknacks if that feels good. Or even approach learning, you know, learning canva as playing with it. Let me just go in here and kind of play rather than feeling like, ugh, this is this other thing that I have to learn in order to do this thing. And I already feel stupid because I don't know how to do it. And this comes up so much. Especially like, you know, my mom with her, with her phone, with her smartphone, was really intimidated and I would help her through it. And when I help her with things, like we kind of stop and I say, all right, so let's, what if, let's approach this as a thing you're figuring out. Right. Like it's, it's, it hopefully is intuitive, but it's going to be a new thing. So this is also back to Loving learning. If you love learning, then you're going to approach it probably as play and be more willing to kind of say, I don't have to already know this. I get to not know this in order to approach it and really just take the time it takes to play with it and be comfortable with it so I can then use it as a tool.

[Steve Burns]

Your mom's very lucky.

[Cass Holman]

Yeah.

[Steve Burns]

The play mindset that you're sort of describing that reframes success and values mistakes. And that sounds to me a little like the scientific process. You know, it seems like it relates to that.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Right.

[Steve Burns]

Because in the scientific process, doing wrong does not mean being wrong. And mistakes are the beginning, not the end. And I'm wondering how you think those things relate.

[Cass Holman]

And this is something that I kind of call play testing.

[Steve Burns]

Play testing? What's that?

[Cass Holman]

Play testing. So play testing is like kind of going into something to figure, to see how it goes. Typically it's with other people, but to say, like, we're all invested in making this work and curious about what we can learn while we're doing it. So when I play test a new design, I have an idea. And of course, like, I've been working on it. It's my design. I'm not a human without an ego. So I want it to work, and I think it'll work. But I go in and say, like, I don't know, maybe it won't work, and elements of it will work and elements won't work. And if I'm. If I've kind of like, if I've embraced possibilities, which is another element that I think can help adults embracing possibilities, I'm open to what I can discover along the way. Right. So, you know, there's famous quotes about Edison saying that he didn't. He. He didn't fail a thousand times on his way to the light bulb. He invented a thousand ways to not make the light bulb, which he had to learn on the way to getting one that worked. Right. So in each experiment, success wasn't that it worked. Success was that he learned from what didn't work.

[Steve Burns]

There's a great. Oh, you'll know what I'm talking about, because I don't. But there's an experiment. There's a famous experiment. It was like, with marshmallows or something, and they gave all these different groups of people marshmallows. And they were like CEOs and engineers and fancy people and preschoolers, and they said, like, build a tower out of these marshmallows and sticks of spaghetti and make it as high as you can. And the engineers won. But preschoolers beat a lot of people like they did. Really?

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Really.

[Steve Burns]

They made the playoffs for sure, because they were thinking differently.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Right.

[Steve Burns]

They were thinking with a play mindset and beyond assumptions and all of that. Right?

[Cass Holman]

Yeah. And unlike adults, unlike most adults, children are really good at, well, uncertainty, but stepping into something that they don't know how to do.

One of the designs that I've spent the most time with is something called Rigamajig, which is cool. Building set. Yeah. Thank you. And when we were first play testing Rigamajig, we had it out. I designed it originally for the Highline park in New York. So we had this little section where we brought everything out and made sure that there were going to be some families there. And the kids just dove in. They'd never. Nobody had ever seen it before. This was the first time, you know, in public, and kids just dove in and started making things. And some of them were, you know, contraptions, and some were just, you know, big hot messes. There was a elephant thing being made by a group of kids, and they. The adults, we were saying, like, go ahead, you can play also. And they. They kind of hung back, and I could feel their. They were kind of threatened, you know, like, what do I do? They were really uncomfortable diving into something that they hadn't seen. And as I talked to people and then continued my own, you know, like, with. Into the book and also working with students as a profess, I came to really kind of understand and then try to design for the fact that adults, again, like I said, we feel like we should know everything. So when we encounter something that's unfamiliar, rather than kind of diving in and playing with it or exploring it or figuring it out, we kind of hang back because we were afraid we'll look silly or we'll look dumb because we don't know.

And I just think that's such a bummer. And there are ways that we can, like, work on that and be. Be more comfortable saying, well, cool. I don't know what that is. Let's dive in and figure it out and not be worried about how you look or whether or not, you know, you're the expert and the child is the novice. Right. With Rigamajig, it kind of flips because the children are experts at figuring out, and often the adults are less fluent. And in that.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah, it's the beginner's mind, right?

[Cass Holman]

Yeah, exactly.

[Steve Burns]

Beginner's mind. There's a gadrillion possibilities in the expert's mind. There are a few, you know, there. And it's. It's not only a bummer, though, Cass. I think it's also just not wise. This is a superpower that we have. That we have, that we backburner till we forget. And it's still there. I'm living proof that you can go. You can go get it back, right? I don't think I have it. I don't think I had it. Like, I had it when I was five. But I've been able to reconnect to a sense of wonder in my life, and. And I can. In my life. I've made it a practice, you know, like, yeah, you work at it. And it's. And it's worth it, which is. Next thing I want to talk to you about is one of my favorite sections in this book is you go through different play types for adults. Like, and I thought they were. It was a little horoscopy, in a way. I was like, ah, that's me. That's who I am, you know? But I was wondering if you could walk us through some of the different play types that. For adults that. That you outlined. Like, talk to me about the meditative play type.

[Cass Holman]

Meditative play. So these. This started with. I had been working with what was called play types that were also kind of developed by playworkers who observe children playing. And in designing for play and in teaching design for play with students of design and students of early education, I just kind of used them by default. I was like, these are the play types. And when I started writing the book and trying to help adults get back to their play and connect with their play, I realized that they didn't actually work. The children's play types didn't work for adults because something that's risky for a child.

Wandering 20ft from their adult, you know, or jumping off of getting to a high point and jumping off of a tall rock or something, climbing a wall at a playground. That's not risky for adults. But even more striking, I think what is risky for adults is playing. Like, being publicly silly is a risk because we're so afraid of looking silly or being judged, and we also. We judge ourselves. And so one of the things that I kind of am trying to kind of coach people to in the book is kind of releasing judgment.

[Steve Burns]

Oh, that's so hard.

[Cass Holman]

It is. It's really hard. And also it's so worth it when you can remember, it's okay. And if somebody thinks that I look weird, that's. They're not. That's. That's not on me. That's on them. Right. So. So the. With. With the play types, I also was looking at how we currently play and. And trying to, I think, help people, help adults realize that we do play in a lot of ways, and in some ways, we don't maybe value it enough to prioritize it or let ourselves play because it's not connected to making money. I think a lot of our priorities are related to capital. So, you know, if you remove the idea that productive means making money, it's very productive to, you know, do a puzzle or. So meditative play might be something like taking a walk in the woods.

[Steve Burns]

Oh, that's me.

[Cass Holman]

Right. It might be actually meditating. It might be kind of doing something that's really embodied where you're connecting to.

To your. To yourself. It's a little bit close to what I call attention play, which I think is really. Would be really valuable for adults to practice. It's like letting yourself be bored, right? So daydreaming, I think a lot of what you describe as wonder might be kind of attention play, like daydreaming or bird watching. For me.

I do attention play a lot on the subway. I live in New York, so I love people watching. And it's a thing. It's very. Right now, I think it's related to just don't look at your phone. Right? Like, just like in the moment where we're like, okay, I'm, you know, got on the train. I need. And then people sit down and. And instead of letting ourselves linger or. Or be bored for a second in order to then engage in attention play and start noticing, like, oh, how is that. Why is that bar up there instead of down here? Like, as a designer, I'm always looking at how things are made, you know, or people watching. Oh, are they on a first date? Or is that like, are they. Are they. Is that a. You know what's going on there? Right? Or like making up stories about where people are coming from or just daydreaming, thinking about or reflecting on something you just came from lingering in an interaction you had at the coffee shop. Right. So attention play can be somewhat meditative, but they're a little bit related. And I think for adults, we're really far from them now because we don't let ourselves linger in what could be described as boredom. Before we engage in some type of.

[Steve Burns]

Play, before we get to the rest of them. I want to talk a little bit more about the phone.

[Cass Holman]

Yeah.

[Steve Burns]

Can'T that be Attention play, even if it's not terribly productive. Like, aren't. Aren't you playing with your attention if you are just kind of scrolling and going down a rabbit hole?

[Cass Holman]

Yeah. And this is where I think the difference between free play and play. Right. So in free play, free play is generative, and I like to differentiate. And I would even go so far as to say that there's a difference between play and entertainment. So a lot of the ways that people play on their phone is consuming something that was designed by somebody else. And so you're consuming. You're being kind of entertained, which might make you laugh, but you're not generating it.

[Steve Burns]

Got it.

[Cass Holman]

It's not inspiring you to tap into your own ideas or memories or wishes. It's feeding you something. Right. So consuming versus consumption versus, like participatory or generative play where it asks something of you and you are. It's bringing something out of you which feels really different than after you've kind of just consumed for a while.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah. So entertainment is the world engaging with you. Play is you engaging with the world. Right. It's. You're moving that way.

[Cass Holman]

I would make even a slight change to that. I don't think entertainment is the world engaging with you.

[Steve Burns]

I think it's something dictating your attention. It's something controlling you.

[Cass Holman]

It's a singular vision. It's somebody's story. Often they're beautiful things, beautiful films and things that might. Very playful things happening on social media, but it doesn't typically ask anything of you.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Right.

[Steve Burns]

You've got no skin in the game.

[Cass Holman]

It's a way of checking out of the world. Right. I enter this world instead of being present in the world that's around me, which is actually the world that can help us remember we're part of a community and we're not alone and we're going to be okay. Like, I. I absolutely identify with and talk to a lot of people who have the instinct when they're just like, I'm overwhelmed. I'm super tired. I dropped off the kids, I went to work. I have to do the groceries. I have to do things. And they're like, I just want to check out. Like, Cass, don't make me engage in something that asks anything of me. And I get that. And when you check out of the world you're in, it doesn't actually, like, make you feel for the most part. My very anecdotal study of absolutely everyone I talk to, nobody feels better afterward. Right. In a way that if you just like take a beat and like, look at the world around you. Whether it's maybe it's birds, maybe it's, you know, so again, attention, play. Maybe you're inventing a story. It also, I think it, it kind of replenishes you and grounds you in the world that we live in, which is the one in front of us, you know, And I think that goes a long way for feeling connected and like you are, in fact in community with other people.

[Steve Burns]

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[Steve Burns]

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So talk to me about creative play because I feel like to the degree that I play as an adult, it's.

I mean certainly meditative play, walking in the woods. I build forts out of sticks to this day.

[Cass Holman]

Yeah.

[Steve Burns]

But creative play when I'm, I'm a very creative person. I'm not very creatively talented in many ways, but I do pursue a lot of that stuff just instinctively. Right. And the most intense feeling that I can relate to play that at least felt like that playground feeling for me that completely embodied sort of 6 year old. I am a billion percent into what I'm doing right now is when I was writing music like in a studio, you know, and just. Yeah. And just throwing ideas at things and misusing instruments and misusing gear and my God, that's as much fun as I think as I've ever had. You know, and I wonder if that, I'm assuming that was creative play.

[Cass Holman]

Absolutely. Yeah. And. And it was pulling something out of you. Right? You were, you were using your all like so many senses. You were. Maybe you were collaborating, but maybe not. Maybe it was, you know, but you had, you know, so probably some exploration or experimenting with it with an instrument as well as some feeling of like that it's, it's helping you tap into something that you are curious about inside of you or just it's all happening so organically that it's not that, you know, typically in flow we're unaware of whether or not something is a toy or a tool. Right. It's all just kind of happening. Yeah. So creative play, I think that this is one that's particularly hard for adults who don't think of themselves as being creative.

And I think that part of that people, adults kind of stop. Will stop identifying as creative at the point that their art class starts to get a letter grade. Right. Which is again similar to what happens in youth sports or dancing. If you're not great at soccer, you might stop playing. If you're not good at drawing, you probably say I'm not an artist. So I'm not gonna take art classes, which has nothing to do with whether or not you like. Right. So if you like doing it, keep doing it. The outcome oriented part is that's again, part of the school system because we've scaled up learning in a way that there's this assessment part, and we do it in a way that's kind of blanket. So everybody is assessed similarly, if not exactly the same. And so I think, yeah, with creative play, the biggest, the most important thing for adults is to release judgment because we are our harshest critic. So the first step, often when somebody, you know, aside from them saying, I can't draw, you know, or like, oh, I'm bad at drawing, it's like, well, what's bad at drawing? You know, drawing is taking something from your head and putting it on the page or bringing it into life. Or it's. It's the process of discovery through creating who's. Who can say what's a good or bad drawing. And also, even if it doesn't look anything like the thing that you imagine in your head or the thing that you're looking at, nobody has to see it. Right. Art isn't about an outcome all the time. It can be. It's a process in the same way that, you know, designing for play is also playful. Like, play isn't just an outcome of design. Play can be the process of design. So, yeah, with creative play, you don't have to come out with a song. Maybe you had some songs afterward and then that was fun.

[Steve Burns]

I didn't care about the songs. Just wanted to keep making them.

[Cass Holman]

Exactly.

[Steve Burns]

I did not care. Yeah, as long as we. As long as we could be in the studio tinkering and messing around like, that was fine. In fact, playing the songs live is something I dreaded. I just wanted to be in the studio. I just wanted to make it. I wanted the process, you know?

[Cass Holman]

Yeah, that's. I mean, that's such a good example of all three of the elements that adults need for free play, which is release judgment, embrace possibility, which is like, be in it enough to discover what's gonna come. Right. We get hung up on, no, we should be working toward a song. It's like, well, let's just. We just had that weird riff. Let's follow that. You know, it's unrelated to the song and then reframe success. That success isn't that you have a song, but that success is that it felt great and you had a good time with, you know, making music. So it's kind of A rethinking of how we approach what our preconceived notions are of what it looks like to be creative.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah, for sure.

So I want to go back to something you brought up a couple times, which is this idea that.

One of the things adults can do to access all of these different playstyles and to access their inherent ability to play and their inherent ability to wonder and be curious is to release judgment. And that's hard.

I'm wondering, in your life if that's been easy for you. Have you always been able to access your sense of play by releasing judgment?

[Cass Holman]

In the book, I have these drawings that are the diary of a dejected play voice.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah.

[Cass Holman]

Because I was imagining.

Some part of us, which I believe we all still have. We just have learned to not listen to it. We have a play voice that tells us, you know, oh, your friend's shoe is untied. Go step on it. Right. Like, I identify also as a little mischievous. And yeah, I wonder if it's like, are you the youngest sibling by any chance?

[Steve Burns]

Yes, I am.

[Cass Holman]

In fact, yes, I'm also the. Yes, I am also the youngest sibling. So I feel like I was like this, that I recognize that spark in your eye. Yeah, yeah.

[Steve Burns]

I would step on the shoelace.

[Cass Holman]

Yeah, yeah. Much to the demise of, like, my older sister.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah. My poor long suffering sisters. Yes.

[Cass Holman]

Yeah. I mean, they do not trust me for good reason. I proved myself untrustworthy time and time again. So I get it. But I think I have a. So the diary of a dejected play voice is kind of me imagining that my play voice might at the end of the day, kind of be thinking about, like, all of the play opportunities that we missed and all the things that my Playboy said. Hey, go do that. Hey, this looks, you know, and looking out for me and saying, like, we love joy. My drive to play is talking to you. And then my adult voice, which is often an echo of adults in our lives or, you know, culture, dominant culture, the adult voice is the one that is also looking out for you. It's trying to protect us, but that says, no, you'll look dumb or like, they'll laugh at you. Like, you know, and so being aware that there's, like, listening and tuning into the play voice when it talks to us is one thing. But then, like, being able to have a conversation with the adult voice and being like, okay, I know you're trying to protect me, but in fact, my friends know who I am. They will still love me if I, you know, sing in the Grocery store. And I'll be okay. It'll be worth it, right? So this kind of balance of recognizing that they're both looking out for us.

But listening to the play voice whenever possible.

[Steve Burns]

I love that, Cass. I love that.

[Cass Holman]

Yeah. For me, the judgment part, I think.

When I'm designing. So a lot of my play is designing for play. That's when I get it the most. Like when I'm in public, I talk to everybody. I love walking my dog and chatting up strangers. And, you know, on the subway, I'll talk to people, and they're usually like, what are you? But it's worth it at work sometimes, not all the time, but it feels great when I connect with someone.

And the releasing judgment comes up in my creation phase more than anything. And that's where I really get, like, can roll deep with imposter syndrome. And you know what? You don't know, like, you don't know what you're doing. Why would you. Like, this is gonna. You're gonna kill children, you know, like everything. God, worms, like every. Like that you're gonna get. They're gonna lose a hand. Like, you can't give a child a big wooden plank, you know. So it's both voices I've heard and like my own. You know, we all have a relationship with our self doubt and may of like, struggle remembering why we like ourselves or do what we do. Right. So these things come out when we're vulnerable, which is in play, which is also why it's so powerful. Like. Like we can. We can. It can have such a deep impact on who and how we are because it's deep.

[Steve Burns]

Do. Do you think that everyone has a play voice?

[Cass Holman]

Absolutely, because we're human.

[Steve Burns]

Me too.

[Cass Holman]

I mean, it'll tell you different things based on who you are and how you're wired and how you probably. How you played as a child. Stuart Brown is a genius neurologist who studies play, and he talks about play personalities which are different than play types. Play types. You know, you might have a tendency towards some more than others, but play types are kind of like, unrelated to play. Personalities are who we are internally, how we. How we're driven to play based on all of the factors that make us who we are.

But I think, yeah, our play voices, all of them are still there. They. They just. We just have to like, find that. Tune into it.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah.

[Cass Holman]

And. And I think the more you talk to her, the more you hear it, the. The more it's gonna kind of tune you into how you might play, you know? And you can start with. So when adults kind of say, okay, where do we. Where do we start? I always like to start with the play memory.

Remember some part of how you played as a child and how you play now might be different. It probably will be quite different. But there's elements there that kind of relate. And just remembering what it felt like will, I think, help give you the.

Help make you brave enough to try.

[Steve Burns]

I can do it right now. I can do it right now. Is even. Even as you were saying that I'm like, I remember how I played as a child. I was close to the ground always.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Yeah.

[Steve Burns]

I was outside in nature smelling leaves and sticks. And it was intense. Like, I remember being. I remember this intensity to play and to rolling around and grabbing things and. And it was kind of primal in a way.

[Cass Holman]

Yeah.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

You know?

[Steve Burns]

Yeah.

[Cass Holman]

So, so important. I mean, I like, whatever in the sun I was aware, like, ah, it's getting dark. I need to. This is. I gotta finish it or like, I gotta figure out how to do this before the sun goes down or before dinner time, whatever it is. Like, it was so important.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah. Just the way you were doing that. Like that. Just the way. Yeah, that's how it felt. And it was the most important and the most fun, you know?

[Cass Holman]

Yeah.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah. Cool. This is all such cool stuff. So I guess the. The big question for all of us that is absolutely explored in this wonderful book is how do we create those conditions? How do we as adults create the conditions that allow us to listen for our play voice? And.

And how do we recover our inherent wonder and curiosity and apply that?

[Cass Holman]

Well, there are the three factors that I think will help a lot. The release judgment, embrace possibility, reframe success. Like, what are you actually after? And one of the things that I think I would be remiss to not also acknowledge is that right now in particular.

I think people, because of stress, because of uncertainty, people think that now's not the time or like it's going to be harder to get there because we're distracted by all those things. Everything about the.

Way that I think.

We'Ve chosen to tell ourselves the story of how and where we are in community right now as civilized. The way civilization is, is.

Like not conducive to feeling empowered or playful.

And in fact, the more that we play, the more we'll be able to continue doing what we do. Finding hope, connecting with hope and wonder and joy. Right. But the big one, I think releasing judgment is the first step because kind of trust yourself and you'll find It.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah. I feel like that's a tough one, too, and I think it might be the most important one.

Well, listen, Cass, thank you for hiking past my house and happening by and happening on by. Yeah, thank you. It's been lovely playing, and you're fantastic. And this book is legit. Full of not just great advice, but it's, like, really actionable. You know, it's really. It's like you can apply these ideas to your own alive life. Like, it makes. If there's a lot of sense in here, in. In my view.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Thank you.

[Cass Holman]

Thank you. That's that. Also, I have to give credit. I have a co writer, Lydia Denworth.

[Steve Burns]

Right.

[Cass Holman]

And our process was very playful, and a lot of the play we. Our language play, and our kind of conceptual play was really trying to make sure that it would make sense for people who aren't me. Right. I mean, I think you and I. You mentioned, like, we have this drive to play, and a lot of people who don't have that drive or are disconnected from that drive can still benefit from it. So I was trying to. Also, I'm trying to speak to everybody that you don't have to be a toy designer to play.

[Steve Burns]

Fantastic. Well, this has been wonderful. Thank you so much for coming by. And I'm gonna go listen to my play voice now, so.

[Cass Holman]

Excellent. Thank you, Steve.

[Steve Burns]

There's a really nice lookout if you go up the. If you go up the mountain that way, you'll hit the main trail. Yeah, it's really nice. Okay.

[Cass Holman]

I'll avoid the bear poop.

[Steve Burns]

I would avoid the bear generally. That's what I do, so. All right. Bye, Cass.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Bye.

[Cass Holman]

Bye.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Okay.

[Steve Burns]

That was awesome. I love Cass. That was a great conversation. I wrote a bunch of stuff down. Let's see. Oh, there's a difference between play and entertainment. Yeah. And it's an important distinction because entertainment is something that is consuming you based on someone else's vision. Right. But play is different. Play ask something from you. It's generative. It draws something out of you. Right. It's important distinction.

I wrote down Play for Adults begins with releasing judgment, embracing possibility, and reframing success.

Those are three fairly challenging things to do.

So how do we do that? Right. And that brings me to the. The last thing I wrote.

Everyone has a play voice, and it's still there.

We just have to tune it in and listen.

Come on. So, yeah, the saying is. Is the work of childhood.

And I guess what that whole conversation was really about is how can we make our work the play of adulthood which is a good question.

Cass was saying it has something to do with letting go of inhibitions and judgments long enough that we can listen for our own play voice.

[Cass Holman]

Huh.

[Steve Burns]

Actually, would it be like super cheesy and corny if we just did that? I mean, yeah, obviously it would be very corny, but isn't it part of it about releasing inhibitions, judgments and stuff? Do you want to try it? I kind of want to try it. Do you want to try it?

You do? Great. Okay, so let's just take a moment and listen for our play voices, see what comes up. Here we go.

Okay.

I don't know about you, but I found that very interesting.

Thanks for coming by today. I really appreciate it. This means a lot.

I gotta get back to work.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

But.

[Steve Burns]

But you look great.

Alive with Steve Burns is a Lemonada Media original. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now's the perfect time. You can listen to the show completely ad free, plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content from me as I reflect on this episode. Just press subscribe on Apple podcasts. Head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. That's lemonadapremium.com Alive is hosted by me, Steve Burns and produced by Jeremy Slutskin. Our editor is Christopher Champion Morgan. Our Associate producer is Akshay Tharabailu, audio engineering by James Sparber. Lemonada's SVP of weekly programming is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Jessica Cordover Kramer, Stephanie Whittles, Wax, and me Me. We'll see you next week and you look great by the way.

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[Cass Holman]

Are you looking for ways to make your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one best selling author of the Happiness Project, bringing.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

You fresh insights and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast.

[Cass Holman]

My co host and happiness guinea pig is my sister, Elizabeth Craft.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

That's me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore ideas and.

[Cass Holman]

Hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits. Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from Lemonada Media.