David Duchovny (2:52)

That's terrible. Terrible that I'm there. My kids kind of your, your. Your heyday on Blue's Clues. There My kids kind of, I think they were too old. I didn't, I didn't really. I wasn't really aware of Blue's Clues as, as a parent so much. Yeah. But the whole idea of children's television is, is fascinating. And. But one of the quotes that I read that you said that I found really interesting was if I knew I was going to be on camera, I wouldn't have auditioned. I felt it was something I would be terrible at, which is why, by the way, I was good at it.

Steve Burns (3:34)

That's real.

David Duchovny (3:36)

That is real. And I'm wondering how you make that distinction of. I thought I'd be terrible at it, which is why I was good at it. Not so much the on camera stuff, I get that. But that kind of turn, that kind of nonsensical turn I like very much for you to explain.

Steve Burns (3:56)

Well, you know, I came to kids TV ass backwards. I was not interested in children's television. I didn't even know any children when I auditioned for that show. And as the story goes, I thought it was a voiceover audition.

David Duchovny (4:09)

Yeah.

Steve Burns (4:10)

And I was up for a series regular on Homicide at the same time as this, you know, yopi dopey kid show thing. So it was this real fork in the road. And one of them worked out and one of them didn't. But I do remember just being the most pretentious young Dustin Hoffman, dangerous short guy, actor wannabe in New York City in these terrible clothes on a blue screen, talking to a bar of soap, thinking you to act the shit out of this. You know, I'm going to show them. I'm going to show them what I can do.

David Duchovny (4:48)

And how long did that last?

Steve Burns (4:50)

Not long. You know, they, they, they beat that out of me real fast. You relate to this. You know, it was, it was not a show that had anyone that understood theater, acting, tv, what my job was. It was all child development specialists. Brilliant child development specialists.

David Duchovny (5:17)

Right.

Steve Burns (5:18)

Incredibly smart people.

David Duchovny (5:19)

That must have made you feel safe in some way that you weren't giving crack to these kids.

Steve Burns (5:24)

Yeah, 100%. I was always proud. I always said I was an accidental educator. You know, all of everything I did was just in service of a curriculum. And I never doubted the genius of what we were doing. And I was enormously proud to be a part of it. You know, that's the thing about children's television is when it's bad, it's. I, I personally find it very difficult to watch. But when it's good, it's transcendent. And the best of all entertainment, probably.

David Duchovny (5:50)

What are you thinking of when you say that?

Steve Burns (5:52)

Sesame, Fred Rogers, Peanuts. In some ways. You know, some of the stuff is important storytelling and. Is important, formative stuff. You know, especially Sesame Street. You know, ethically.

David Duchovny (6:13)

You know, these. These. The shows, when they work, you know, they. They're. They're like parables. You know, they're like the. The. They can be like biblical paracles with parables without the Bible. You know, they. They teach kids difficult situations and how to.

Steve Burns (6:30)

They can. You know, they certainly. They certainly can go there. I mean, Fred Rogers, certainly. That's what that was. That was his ministry, you know. Any Peewee Herman for you later in life? I mean, I thought it was completely inspired and absolutely genius and totally not for kids at all. And. And I love it.

David Duchovny (6:50)

But in a way. In a way it was, though, right?

Steve Burns (6:54)

It became that, from my understanding of it, like, I think he was a good dude and realized, oh, this is working for kids. So that's what we're doing now. But I don't. That's not how it. And that's not where his sensibilities were when he was doing it. But that show was awesome, and I ripped him off left and right.

David Duchovny (7:12)

Oh, tell me about that. How so?

Steve Burns (7:15)

Well, again, not being a fan of kids tv, but being a fan of. Of clown, and this is something you and I, I hope we'll get into. I'm a huge Beckett nerd, and just sort of being a clown, a fan of the vaudeville sort of clown, sort of as a vehicle for much more than comedy.

David Duchovny (7:38)

We can get into it right now because it's.

Chelsea Clinton (7:40)

It's.

David Duchovny (7:40)

It's probably. It's improbable that we'll get back to it. So let's. Let's commit to. Let's. I don't see myself circling back to Beckett, so let's. Let's take the opportunity.

Steve Burns (7:50)

Well, that's how I got into acting was I. I went to a little scholarship arts program as a kid when I was in high school, and I got.

David Duchovny (8:01)

Where was that? That was in Pennsylvania.

Steve Burns (8:05)

In Erie. Pennsylvania is where the program was. And I had got accepted for writing and for theater, and they told me I could do both. And when I got there, they made me pick one. And there were much cuter girls in the theater thing, so that's what I did. And the first thing we saw were these two. The two instructors performing Endgame.

David Duchovny (8:31)

That's insane.

Steve Burns (8:32)

And it rewired me. You know, it rewired my aesthetic in. In the ways. In. In that way that Only music has done to me otherwise. You know, I said, oh, shit, everything is now different. And I want to do that. Who wrote that? What is that?

David Duchovny (8:50)

Right? Can you put that into words? That rewiring. I mean, I think I understand it, and I think I have a similar experience, not with theater, but with his writing and with his consciousness. But for you, at how old are you reformulating your mind?

Steve Burns (9:07)

17.

David Duchovny (9:08)

Yeah, so you're right there.

Steve Burns (9:09)

So what is it that's a good time for it, you know?

David Duchovny (9:11)

What does it sound like to your mind?

Steve Burns (9:14)

There was. It was the sense of the absurd that I already knew rhymed with my worldview. I already knew that that was in my DNA somewhere. And End Game is my favorite Beckett play. And it's funny, and I thought it was hilarious.

David Duchovny (9:38)

Yeah.

Steve Burns (9:39)

And profoundly painful and dark. And I guess, you know, I'd always been kind of a morose little dude. And I think, you know, there's a part of me that sort of learned to navigate life in that way, you know, to. To be. To laugh through it or whatever. And something in it just resonated with me and the style of it, the form that. The vaudeville of it just sort of being a vessel for so much more. And then the language was, as you know, better than I ever will. But the language is so profound and dark and funny and smart. And a lot of the music I liked was trying to be like that too. You know, I was listening to a lot of the Smiths at the time, and it was all literary and deliberately witty and did. And explicitly smart.

David Duchovny (10:32)

You know, I guess what rewired me, if I could jump in there, just to add on, is, you know, I was coming to Beckett after, you know, studying English literature, and English literature kind of ended with James Joyce, which was all of English literature in one book. Ulysses. Every. Almost every word or Finnegan's Wake is. Which I had never gotten through. But it's. It's. It's the compendium of all the words and all the literatures. And so then Beckett comes and. And I'm overloaded, and I'm thinking, oh, my God, I can't. I can't even play in this arena, you know, and then Beckett comes along to me, and it's all stripped down. There's. There's no big words, there's no confessional. There's nothing, quote, unquote, personal. And yet it feels. There's nothing confessional. It feels personal. It feels personal in a universal way. So the. The seeming simplicity of it was what blew me away.

Steve Burns (11:39)

It is simple. I mean, some of it is. So see, you, you, if I'm correct, you actually are one of those dudes who reads the novels.

David Duchovny (11:48)

Yeah, yeah.

Steve Burns (11:49)

See, I can't. I have tried and I have failed.

David Duchovny (11:52)

Well, I don't.

Steve Burns (11:53)

And I'll try to fail better, but.

David Duchovny (11:54)

There'S a utilitarian reason for that. When I was casting about for a dissertation idea when I was in college, I knew I wanted to write on Beckett. But everybody has written on Beckett's plays. There's just reams and reams of critical work on, on the play. So I thought, well, maybe I can say something interesting about the books, because not many people have written about that. And I don't have to do as much research. I don't have to read everything that's been written on the books, because there's not that much written on the books. Yeah, but I think of the books almost as like long monologues. Yeah. If you look at them that way. But they're, they're long. And I, I, I understand not being able to get through them, you know.

Steve Burns (12:36)

But you know Bill Irwin, you know that guy?

David Duchovny (12:38)

I, I know who it is. I know, I know, I know his work.

Steve Burns (12:41)

He does a, a one man show called On Beckett that you might want to check out. He performs a lot of the, the, the litter. The literature, not the plays as monologue.

David Duchovny (12:55)

Well, I know he's a clown too.

Steve Burns (12:56)

Oh, he is.

David Duchovny (12:57)

He gets back to your.

Steve Burns (12:59)

He is the keeper of the sacred art. He, he is, he is one of my real touchstones. And I see him around sometimes in, in New York and I'm, and I just humiliate myself and try to talk to him and he's always very polite, but he is such a hero of mine. Again, it's that sad clown thing, right? It's that. And there's so much of coming back. There's so much of that in Sesame Street. So much of that in Sesame Street. I always say that, you know, Bert is more human than, than any of the other characters on Sesame Street. And he's a freaking Muppet because there's something broken about Bert. You know.

David Duchovny (13:44)

Ernie's the one with the conical head and.

Steve Burns (13:47)

No, no, backwards.

David Duchovny (13:49)

That's Bert.

Steve Burns (13:50)

Bert is the uptight, kind of like the straight man, but he's grumpy and he's undiagnosed with something for sure. You know what I mean? And it's, it's very easy to imagine. His life is hard. You can, you can picture him at work, you know, like it's Just, it's just incredible, the humanity that, that, you know, looking back, people always ask me, you know, what are your influences in kids tv? And in hindsight, it's clear to me, it's all Frank Oz, you know, it's all Bert and Grover and, and all of that kind of stuff, and, and some Fred Rogers, I guess. But.

David Duchovny (14:23)

So how do you, how do you see, how do you see yourself in Bert? It seems to have, it seems to have struck a chord with you personally. Right?

Steve Burns (14:33)

Well, you know, on, on the kids show that I used to do, they really wanted an Ernie. Right. Because Ernie is more, hey, you know, just kind of mischievous and irascible and innocent. Innocent, for sure. And, and always optimistic and happy. But they cast a Bert, so what they got was a Bert playing Ernie. And that kind of worked in a way, because I didn't have any. I didn't know any other way to do it, you know, and, and so there was, at least I was trying to add, like actual human stuff in this very clownish character.

David Duchovny (15:18)

It sounds, it sounds almost painful.

Steve Burns (15:23)

Well, it was. You know, what people don't know and what I didn't know is the entire time I was on that kid's TV show, which was all about empowerment and curiosity and wonder, and I was dealing with undiagnosed severe clinical depression the entire time. Right. And I knew my job was really hard. I knew that, like, harder than it should be. But I didn't know why and I didn't know what was going on. It didn't make sense to me. I was a kid, you know, I was like 22 years old or something.

David Duchovny (16:04)

Yeah.

Steve Burns (16:05)

And I thought it was, you know, just my fault somehow. And I just decided, you know, you got a good thing going here, and it's kind of a big responsibility and fight it, you know, push, fight, keep your head down. But there's a cost to that, all of that, you know, especially in particular, I think, when the contours of your job involve providing self esteem to America's children and you don't have your own approval that day or, you know, you have to sort of go to the well for boundless enthusiasm and wonder and joy, you know, and exuberance, and you just, I mean, there's not much in there, you know, and, and as being a kid, I didn't really understand what was going on. I didn't have any replenishment strategies for any of that. And so it was, it did hurt sometimes to, to do. I think for anyone, it would be difficult. I think a lot of people can relate to that, actually, in their job.

David Duchovny (17:16)

Yeah, I think. Absolutely. But I also think it brings me back to the initial quote that I brought up, which is, I think because. Not because you were depressed, but because you were in touch with that part of yourself. I think that's why you were so good at your job, because I think you were trustworthy to children. You weren't just trying to fool them with this happiness guy underneath, because kids see everything underneath. They knew and they could trust you. This is me just making this up right now, but I think that must be true.

Steve Burns (17:55)

I think you're right. I mean, you know, I always use Barney as an example. Right.

David Duchovny (18:03)

Well, who doesn't really?

Steve Burns (18:04)

Yeah. Poor dinosaur is bad. And people really. He's taken strays left and right. Yeah, but Barney is a mask, Right. He's literally a monochromatic mask. And I think kids will go with that. With the, hey, how are you? They'll go with that to a certain. Certain extent. But kids are smart, and they know that that's not. That doesn't represent the human condition. They know on some level that that's doesn't represent what life is. And Bert is much closer to what life is than that mask. And I think by accident, I was bringing a lot of human ballast to that role in order to get through it. Now, the.

David Duchovny (19:01)

The.

Steve Burns (19:02)

The entire conceit of that show is I would talk right to the camera.

David Duchovny (19:05)

Yeah, I wanted to talk about that as an actor.

Steve Burns (19:07)

That was my favorite part about that. But. But I. I was constantly failing. I mean, that was the joke of the show. That was the entire conceit of the show, is that I would speak right to the camera and fail.

David Duchovny (19:21)

How do you fail?

Steve Burns (19:23)

And I would say, wait, is that the thing? And the kids would say, dude, no, of course that's not the thing. What is wrong with you? It's over there. And the kids would save me, and I would. The kids would save me, and I would fail, and the kids would save me. But at the core of the show, I would ask for help.

Chelsea Clinton (19:41)

Will.

Steve Burns (19:42)

Will you help me?

David Duchovny (19:43)

Right.

Steve Burns (19:44)

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David Duchovny (23:38)

What led to your quitting the show the first time around? I mean, I get the stakes. There's a version of this where you kind of bifurcate yourself and you start living a double life while you're doing the show. And then there's a version of it where, oh, being happy all the time is your own personal. Fake it till you make it. And now all of a sudden, wow, where's my depression? It's gone. I actually faked it until I made it. Then there's the version of after how many years? Just two or three years. How long was it that you were doing five. Oh, five years that you. You quit? And again, quitting is something we come across in this podcast a lot because quitting is associated with some kind of a failure, when in fact, quitting can be the most positive experience and an empowering experience that you can do. So what, you. You feeling it coming for a while? I mean, it seems like it was there from the beginning, this kind of sense of, wow, this is great, but it's also the opposite of great.

Steve Burns (24:42)

Well, you know, I mean, I don't mind saying now, you know, I. I say I quit, but I. I think I got fired first, really, because I wanted. I wanted money. They were making so much money. We were the number one kid show in many, many countries for a while. We were beating Sesame street, and we had a ton of merch. And I would kind of say, you know, I believe I'm one of the. One of the pillars of the success of the show. I think that's. I think that's fair to say. I can't afford to live in New York City. That doesn't seem right to me, is there. You know, then the truth is, for the first couple of seasons of that show, I wouldn't have been able to do it except I had this voiceover thing going on, you know, really. So it was my side hustle at first, right. While they were making a billion dollars, you know, so there was just kind of a matter of pride, I think, at a certain point where I was like, well, that was great, but they're not gonna pay me, so I'm out, you know, and then they kind of said, why, please come back. We'll pay you something. Yeah. And I stuck around for a while, and eventually, I think it was fair, you know, but. But eventually I did have to leave because, you know, I mentioned that, that, well, that I would have to go to, to find the spirit of the show or whatever, to find the thing that allowed that connection and it wasn't really there, you know, I couldn't find it and I was struggling and I just, if I probably stayed a little too long actually, you know, and I still hadn't, you know, addressed any mental health anything, you know, I was still just like, ah, I'm out. And I probably wouldn't have left when I left if I had a better handle on myself, you know, if that makes sense.

David Duchovny (26:54)

It does. Where did you go about finding your handle? How did you go about finding your handle?

Steve Burns (27:01)

And when, you know, crisis, you know, like everybody. Eventually. It was really around the death of my father. I was very involved in his caregiving and it was a lot. It was pretty heavy, you know, it was gnarly.

Gemma Spake (27:27)

And.

Steve Burns (27:30)

I was just getting out of a very bad, disappointing relationship at the time. And I just felt really alone and, and I just, it finally exceeded my capacity, you know, and there's just no other way to put that. And this kind of flipped out, you know, I didn't sleep. I remember I didn't sleep for like five days. All I would do is like jump rope and I felt great, you know what I mean? And then I just kind of lost my mind and. And that's when I did, you know, the thing from tv. In every episode of that show, I would sit in a chair and look at someone in the eyes and say, will you help me? And it wasn't until I did that in my three dimensional human life that things changed, you know. So, yeah, unfortunately it does seem to be the thing, doesn't it? You gotta get, you gotta go too far. And then, you know, and I don't want to make it sound like I wasn't in rehab or anything like that, you know, it was all just like, it just, it just got too heavy for Superman to lift, you know.

David Duchovny (28:53)

Well, you failed, you know, I mean, that's what a gift. I mean, I, I feel like there have been, there have been times that I, you know, skirted failure and, and that was a mistake that, you know, you'll play your game, I'll play my game for as long as I can succeed at it. Even if I'm barely scrap. It's better or feels better than looking at myself in the mirror and saying, okay, this is it, you know, let's drop, drop that mask of success. Drop that mask of whatever. And what, what is bothering you? What, what are you covering up by doing all these things?

Steve Burns (29:38)

Yeah. You know, you don't fight. You don't fight that. You collect it, you know, that's what happens. You collect it and then you collapse, you know.

David Duchovny (29:49)

Did you find yourself kind of thinking back to your time with those child psychologists and, and, and hearing what they were saying differently or was it just.

Steve Burns (29:59)

Oh, yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. I look back at Blue's Clues now and like there are so many incredible life lessons in that show. Just incredible. Like I talk about the practice of listening, the practice of, of deeply examining silences and embracing them and leaning into them in your. That's a practice I do every day now. Like, that's just fantastic stuff. And Blues Clues was all about leading an examined life on many levels. We would just run around with joy and, and look for little clues and bits of information that led to greater understanding. And then we would talk about them as friends. Like, it's fantastic. You know, the amount of lessons that I have learned from that show in hindsight are extraordinary. I used to really struggle with Steve from Blue's Clues. You know, there was a real sort of.

David Duchovny (30:51)

Yeah.

Steve Burns (30:53)

Personality tension there between like which one of us exists and which one of us doesn't.

David Duchovny (30:58)

Right.

Steve Burns (30:59)

And now I love that dude. You know, he's become, he's become like a real teacher, you know, of, of me personally. You know, it's. I don't like to look back with regret, but I do wish that I had been able to sniff some of that back in the day.

David Duchovny (31:18)

Wish you'd been a little nicer to Steve, don't you?

Steve Burns (31:20)

Sure.

David Duchovny (31:21)

Yeah.

Steve Burns (31:21)

He's a cool guy. I like that guy.

David Duchovny (31:23)

Just give him a different shirt. Yeah, his pants are terrible. Worse than the shirt?

Steve Burns (31:29)

Yeah, it was real bad. He looked bad.

David Duchovny (31:30)

Do you have them hidden away somewhere? Those.

Steve Burns (31:32)

They're in a closet back here somewhere. Yeah, they don't fit anymore.

David Duchovny (31:37)

What is fascinating about your style, your particular style that you created on Blue Schools is you. You. You seem to be waiting. You seem to be in a conversation. It's not that kind of one way performance that you get with a lot of people who look into the camera and kids shows like that. You're actually, you're listening. And that's fascinating to me because I'm like, well, what did you write responses in your head that you were listening to? Did you just improvise a voice in your head that was speaking to you? What was it like in those moments?

Steve Burns (32:18)

I mean, the real, real is I would listen to the silence, you know, and, you know, I would listen and I always described it as trying to like, balance the room on the end of a pin, you know, and, and kind of create that, that little tension, you know, and I loved it. That was my favorite part. Like, I couldn't wait to do that part every time, you know, it's like, ah, this is where I get to do stuff, you know.

David Duchovny (32:51)

Right.

Steve Burns (32:51)

And eventually what you learn is that silence has a voice, you know, silent. There's stuff there. And yeah, I'm just doing a little kitty show on basic cable, you know. But that moment that listening to that silence has been. That's a wonderful practice, you know, that's like a, that's an instructive, wonderful way to spend your day. In. In a lot of ways, I'm grateful for having to have to do that as part of my job, but that's what I would do. And I would always do it until it felt weird. And when it felt weird, it was probably about right.

David Duchovny (33:31)

Yeah.

Steve Burns (33:32)

You know, but I, I didn't really, like, hear a kid in my voice or in my head.

David Duchovny (33:38)

Right.

Steve Burns (33:38)

Or anything like that. I was more just leaning into the silence just to. Because, you know, it's.

David Duchovny (33:46)

It's.

Steve Burns (33:46)

I guess, you know, that acting 101 thing. If you're really listening to something, then it'll appear like you're really listening to something, you know?

David Duchovny (33:52)

Right.

Steve Burns (33:53)

So I guess that's where it came from. But, but it's that.

David Duchovny (33:58)

But to answer your.

Steve Burns (33:59)

But to answer your question about what was so brilliant about the show was that conceit that I hear you, that I'm with you in that, you know more than me, that allows special access. If you can sell that, if you can sell that, if you can get kids on board with that, then their brains are wide open and you can just cram the knowledge in there, you know. And that's what they did so brilliantly because we, we had that special access. And then all the curriculum was incredibly well scaffolded. The first layer of the game was easier than the second and easier than the third. The second game built on that game and was harder. And by the time I would sit in this chair and it was straight up critical thinking and deductive reasoning, straight up, you know, let's test the hypothesis before we make a decision or a belief about. It was fantastic, you know, and on top of that, they fought really hard for a different viewing schedule. They fought really hard to air the same episode all week. Not out of any laziness or anything, but because it was designed to be hard and it was designed for return mastery.

David Duchovny (35:19)

Oh.

Steve Burns (35:20)

And so kids were like, I'm getting it, I'm getting it, I'm getting it.

David Duchovny (35:22)

So, yeah, some of the discussions that I've had on the podcast, because it's nominally about failure, is we talk about kids sometimes, and that's all kids do is fail because they have no mastery of anything. They don't know that much. They're not good at things they're not supposed to be. And that kind of response to failure, if you can learn as a child the resilience and the response to failure or the naturalness of failing and the fact that failing never ever ends and you can get better at things, but there's no shame in the failure. That's the essence of childhood, is being comfortable. I think a healthy childhood is being comfortable with failure.

Steve Burns (36:13)

Oh, I think it's innate, don't you? I think it's inherent in. In. In. In a child.

David Duchovny (36:19)

You know, where does the shame come in? Where does the. Like you learned that.

Steve Burns (36:24)

That's. Learned the. The. The sense of wonder. Wonder is like looking at adversity and inviting it. Looking at the unknown and inviting it to play. You know, there is a saying in, you know, child development that play is the work of childhood, you know, And I think that is absolutely true. And children are. You're so right. I think that children are all Beginner's mind and they're all. There's infinite possibilities and the failure is part of the game, you know?

David Duchovny (36:57)

Right.

Steve Burns (36:57)

And I think there is no shame in failing until you're learned. Until you learn to feel shame in.

David Duchovny (37:04)

Failing, you know, do you remember, I mean, as. As in your own life, a moment where you felt that. That kind of innocence lost from. From going to. My job is to play to. My job is to make money. My job is to succeed. My job is to be the next Dustin Hoffman.

Steve Burns (37:27)

Well, I think from. For a long time, I thought I failed because I ended up on kids tv. You know, I thought I failed because I didn't make the right choices to. That would have led toward something closer to my expectation. You know, I felt wildly miscast. I felt unqualified beyond belief to be on that show. I felt that I was leading someone else's life and that I had done something wrong. You know, I. I know now that that was largely, you know, my unaddressed sort of issues speaking to me, but it felt often like failure, even though I knew objectively that it was wildly successful. And, and I know now it's just, you know, I just see it as an impossible gift. And I wish I could have seen it like that at the time, you know, but.

David Duchovny (38:28)

Seems impossible to, to have that kind of consciousness when you're in the midst of it, I have to say. Yeah, you know, that that's, that's what we all learn, you know, I wish I would have enjoyed that, but I mean, I, I, I wonder. I get the sense that you kept on trying to do what was in your mind. Good work.

Steve Burns (38:49)

Yeah.

David Duchovny (38:49)

You kept on trying to act. If you're like, in this, okay, I'm in this kids show. But you have those moments of silent connection that you talked about. But.

Steve Burns (38:59)

Well, I, I loved those, Those moments were always so important to me. And also, as I said before, you know, I was kind of the only custodian of those moments. You know, there was great. Well, yeah, well, it's not that I would try to tell people about what it is I was trying to go for there, but they, but they were like child development specialist. They were like, yeah, yeah, just be happy, you know, just smile. And I'm like, well, that's not really, you know, it's got to be vulnerable in that moment. And, you know, he's got to really need your help or whatever. They're like, yeah, so, but, but I like that, you know, because I feel like, oh, this, this is my work.

David Duchovny (39:38)

Right.

Steve Burns (39:38)

You know, and it wasn't until like five years ago, four years ago, that I understood that it connected. You know, I, I did Blue's clues turned 25, and, you know, they asked me to do a shout out to the little kids. And I was like, those little kids have no idea who I am.

David Duchovny (39:56)

Right.

Steve Burns (39:57)

You know, but I will do a shout out to my homie, you know, who's now 30. And, and we didn't write it. I just improv it. And I just spoke to them. I just scaled, I just scaled the show. You know, it used to be about what was important. It used to be about shapes and colors and vegetables and graham crackers and whatever. But I just spoke right to them about student loans and the pandemic and this is hard and we're adults and man, you know, and, and they put that on the Internet and it kind of exploded there for a second. And I thought, wow, that connected, you know, and it's still sort of there in a way that surprised me.

James Corden (41:00)

Hello, I'm James Corden, and on my new show, this Life of Mine, I sit down each Week with some of the most fascinating people on planet Earth. From Dr. Dre to Julianne Moore to David Beckham to Cynthia Erivo to Martin Scorsese to Jeremy Renner to Denzel Washington to Kim Kardashian, we talk about the people, places, possessions, music, and memories that made them who they are. These are intimate conversations full of stories that you've never heard before. This Life of Mine premieres October 21st. Wherever you get your podcast.

David Duchovny (41:53)

One of the great acting tidbits I ever received was, you know, you see actors who are very interesting, like, oh, yeah, he's. He's really interesting. Look at him. He's running around being super interesting. And the tidbit that I got was like, you want to be interesting, be interested, right? And that's why we love to watch kids, and that's why we love to watch animals, because they are just interested. Like, I watch my dog. He's. It's life and death with that fly he's trying to catch, and it's hysterically funny and riveting to watch because he's interested.

Steve Burns (42:32)

Oh, yeah.

David Duchovny (42:33)

You know, and that's another thing that I wish for. I wish for my kids, and I wish for all people. And it's so difficult now because we're inundated with so much stimuli.

Steve Burns (42:45)

Yeah, hard.

David Duchovny (42:45)

Hard to generate our own interest in something. There's so many things vying for our interest.

Steve Burns (42:52)

It's so important, you know, and the way that. In the way that our interest is commodified is through conflict. You know, the whole Internet is maximized for interesting conflict. And. And that's the whole reason I'm doing a podcast, really. It's like, all right, if I'm. If I'm talking to. If I happen to have this special access to this generation and a half who grew up on me in a parasocial way, in an early sort of parasocial relationship wherein I did everything I could to get you to believe that we were in dialogue, we were in conversation. Can we keep doing that in a way that maintains that attention but includes empathy, compassion, silence.

David Duchovny (43:49)

Silence?

Steve Burns (43:50)

You know, these are missing things.

David Duchovny (43:54)

I see. I see you do it on your podcast. You know, you still. You still wait. You still take those long pauses, which are riveting. And I just ballsy.

Steve Burns (44:07)

I did this thing on Tick Tock just as a social experiment, right? I was like, what if I do nothing? You know, in a way, I was trying to prove it to someone that I know that it was.

David Duchovny (44:21)

There's no such thing as nothing, Steve.

Steve Burns (44:23)

Right?

David Duchovny (44:23)

That's what you know.

Steve Burns (44:26)

But all I do is I put my iPhone on my table and I say, hey, what's up, baby girl? How you doing? What's going on? Tell me you know. And then I just pause.

David Duchovny (44:36)

I told you not to call me baby girl. I thought we went over.

Steve Burns (44:38)

I know, know.

David Duchovny (44:39)

I know there were ground rules that we talked about before this.

Steve Burns (44:41)

You did, and I forgot, okay? And that's on me.

David Duchovny (44:44)

But you got. You got three baby girls with me. That's one.

Steve Burns (44:48)

But I just sit there and listen. And I gotta tell you, people are. It hits people emotionally, and that's not something I'm doing. That is something they're bringing to that moment.

David Duchovny (45:05)

What do you think that is it?

Steve Burns (45:07)

I believe it's because it is a missing thing with the phone.

David Duchovny (45:13)

Right.

Steve Burns (45:14)

We forget. I mean, the whole point of the phone, the whole point of all of this technology was to bring us together, community. And everyone knows. It's made us isolated and weird instead. And we forget that there's a human being on the other side of every single screen with a fragile human soul that you can harm in the comment section or you can uplift with your words. And I firmly believe that we have a responsibility to fragile human souls. I. I believe that. And we need to humanize this experience because it's going to swallow us whole. I don't see us not being online, so I think we need to hurry up and humanize this. And I think listening, real listening, deep listening is a big part of that.

David Duchovny (46:06)

You must have a very fundamental connection to trolling because of, because of the, The. The death rumor. Yeah. And I'm fascinated by your. I want to hear what that felt like because I think. I think I had a death rumor about me that lasted a day or something. And it. I think about my death probably as much as the next person. Maybe a little more. I don't know. I think about death, but it didn't. It didn't make me think about it more or less. You know, it was just like, well, that's stupid. You know, I know I'm alive. I want. Let's just. Whatever. Yours went on for five years, is that right?

Steve Burns (47:02)

Longer. Fifteen.

David Duchovny (47:04)

Fifteen years, yeah. So can you. Can you tell me the different stages of grief.

Steve Burns (47:14)

Sure.

David Duchovny (47:14)

That you went through in those 15 years? Because I think it must be an amazing gift again, at this point to have gone through as frustrating as. It must have been, as insulting. Whatever, however you want to take it.

Steve Burns (47:31)

Those. Those are right. At first it was funny. Right. Because it was so absurd. I was literally making television, you know, And I also understood it in a way. There is a. There is a human impulse. It's not our finest instinct, but there is a human impulse to corrupt something that seems implausibly pure. Right. And it's, It's a fun balloon to pop. Oh, that dude's on heroin. Hahaha. That is so the opposite of what he appears to be. That satisfies my lizard brain, you know.

David Duchovny (48:13)

It's all rigged. It's rigged, exactly.

Steve Burns (48:15)

Yeah, there you go. It's that, it's that mindset, right?

David Duchovny (48:18)

Yeah.

Steve Burns (48:19)

And the rumor that I died, I think was the first, is that I was on heroin. To this day, I've never even seen heroin, but I was dead of a heroin overdose, which I hated because I didn't want people to say drugs and Blue's Clues in the same sentence ever. You know, that pissed me off. We were all working way too hard for that. And there was nothing I could do.

David Duchovny (48:47)

This is while you're shooting the show.

Steve Burns (48:49)

And this was when. This was when the Internet was beginning to Internet for the first time.

David Duchovny (48:53)

Right, right.

Steve Burns (48:55)

And I don't think anybody had any context for the kind of agreement, national consensus.

David Duchovny (49:04)

So you thought, surely I can, I can put this cat back in the bag.

Steve Burns (49:08)

Oh, dude, they had.

David Duchovny (49:10)

There's the truth. So here it is.

Steve Burns (49:12)

I went on the Rosie o' DONNELL show and like, did a whole episode of Blues Clues with her and it didn't help. I remember I, like, I danced with Busta Rhymes on a, on a show and we were like, whatever, man, you're dead. I'm like, this is insane. This is literally insane. And then it just became indelible. And after like two years of that, it's not funny.

David Duchovny (49:34)

Right.

Steve Burns (49:34)

And it started to feel like a cultural preference.

David Duchovny (49:38)

That's a, that's a, that's a, That's a deep way to put it.

Steve Burns (49:45)

Yeah, it's how.

David Duchovny (49:46)

It's very, It's. You're taking it very personally at that point.

Steve Burns (49:49)

Of course.

David Duchovny (49:49)

Personal.

Steve Burns (49:50)

Of course. And now if you couple that with untreated severe depression.

David Duchovny (49:59)

Right.

Steve Burns (50:01)

After 15 years, you identify with this idea.

David Duchovny (50:07)

And can you explain to me what that means exactly?

Steve Burns (50:11)

Eventually, I, somewhere secret, believed that it was true in meaningful ways.

David Duchovny (50:20)

That you were dead.

Steve Burns (50:21)

Yeah, that. That the version of me that I was supposed to be died. Right. In some way. And that's a strange ghost to put your arm around for years and years. And I'm not afraid to say now, at the worst points, I felt like I was supposed to be right and the indelible rumor of my demise was a convenient thing to point to. A little too convenient. You know, it's like, oh, well, obviously this is true. You know, this is. This is fit. This is what's supposed to be, you know, I'll. I'll at the very least play along, you know.

David Duchovny (51:13)

And so did your behavior change at that point?

Steve Burns (51:17)

Yeah, I scared myself a little, you know, and that's kind of when I said, this is. This is not how I want to be, you know, and also I gotta be there for my dad, you know, and that. That death rumor me up, you know, and that's why I get mad at Internet bullying and Internet trolls. Even if you're trolling a celebrity, it doesn't. I don't care. That's a person. And we have. It matters how we treat people. It just does. And you can be part of an aggregate of great harm with your anonymous trolling in a comment section. You know, I can. The Scarlet Letter is all about this, you know, people choose. People would rather die physically than socially. These are big deals. And we have a power to cause great harm with this technology in. In those ways. And I. And I'm not just scolding everyone. Like, I get it. It does feel like there are no consequences to what you're doing because there's 10 billion people online and you are just one voice, but you're part of a Voltron of mean at that point, you know, and if it didn't matter.

David Duchovny (52:43)

Is that a Marvel Universe reference? I'm trying to get lost.

Steve Burns (52:46)

I thought you'd get it.

David Duchovny (52:47)

I thought you'd get it. I don't watch any of those movies. Sorry.

Steve Burns (52:49)

Oh, it'. Not. It's pre Marvel. It was. Voltron was a robot. It's like a Japanese robot made up of other robots.

David Duchovny (52:56)

All right.

Steve Burns (52:57)

No one gets Voltron.

David Duchovny (52:58)

Yeah, that's. That's a great reference then. Yes.

Steve Burns (53:01)

That no one will get except me.

David Duchovny (53:03)

Well, now they will because you've. You've unpacked it for us. But I think there's. There's a great spot to kind of sit down in there, which, which is true. And, And I can just tell you that yesterday, because this podcast for me is relatively new and I'm rel. New at it. I'll go in the comment section, stupidly.

Steve Burns (53:27)

Don't do that.

David Duchovny (53:27)

And it'll me up for, you know, not. Not that long. But I tend to. Anything negative, I'll tend to go, yeah, that probably. That's probably right. That's probably. That's probably right. That's probably right.

Steve Burns (53:42)

Easier to believe, right?

David Duchovny (53:44)

Somehow. And. And you. And I don't know where that comes from, but it comes from somewhere. But I just think about kids and I think about my kids, and I think, Jesus, it's. It's just this hall of mirrors, you know, there's no. There's no true reflection coming back to you. There's just this funhouse mirror coming back to you constantly, or this Instagram life perfect image coming, which is just as painful in many ways for people that don't have that life, so. Sure, nobody has that life, so.

Steve Burns (54:20)

Oh, yeah, you're like.

David Duchovny (54:22)

You're like the test subject, you know, it's. In a way, it's very instructive to. I think you have a lot to say about this phenomenon because it, for you, it got taken to the extreme and it got taken to the extreme for 15 years. I don't know. Do you still. Do you still have to deal with it?

Steve Burns (54:40)

Not really, no. I mean, there was that great gift.

David Duchovny (54:43)

What. What fell. What. How did it turn around?

Steve Burns (54:46)

I did a little. I. I went viral. I said. I said, hey, baby girl was up.

David Duchovny (54:51)

You know, that's two. That's.

Steve Burns (54:52)

Well, that wasn't specifically directed at you. That was counting it. That was the. That was every baby girl.

David Duchovny (54:59)

I'm the host. I choose.

Steve Burns (55:01)

That was the royal. Anyway, I did that. I. I did that little shout out video and it went mega viral and billions and billions of unique impressions, whatever that means. I don't even know what it means.

David Duchovny (55:13)

Right.

Steve Burns (55:13)

But it was. But it was everywhere for a while and it was so emotional because I thought, oh, my God, they know I'm here and they're happy. I get emotional thinking about it. It was really healing in a big way to know that, you know, one of the things I said was, I never forgot you, you know, and they said, we never forgot you, you know, and I thought they did. I thought they all thought I was dead. But instead, you know, I guess we were one of those shows because I. Yeah, I had those shows. I'm sure you had shows that. We started this conversation talking about characters and shows from children's television that had an impression on us, and I guess we were one of those. So that feels very alive to me.

David Duchovny (56:09)

Yeah, I just. I look forward to. To more of that and more of you. And I. I do believe there's some acting there. I'm seeing some. I'm seeing some.

Steve Burns (56:18)

Hey, cool.

David Duchovny (56:19)

I'm seeing somebody reaching out and go, give me some of that. Steve Burns.

Steve Burns (56:25)

Well, thank you so much for having me, man. I really enjoyed this. I love talking to anyone about Samuel Beckett. So I love what you're doing. I love the message of failing Better. I think it is important to hear and this was a lot of fun. Baby girl.

David Duchovny (56:39)

That's it. That's number three. That's perfect.

Steve Burns (56:42)

All right.

David Duchovny (56:56)

Interesting talking about the imposter syndrome with Steve Burns. We all feel it, don't we? We all feel like imposters. It was also really good to get back to children and failure. You know, the work of children is play. Great saying great, great thought. But also children fail is what they do. It's almost like the job of children is failure and to somehow be able to raise your kids or to re raise yourself if you didn't get this as a kid, to respond to failure with resilience and joy rather than shame and giving up. I've struggled with that my entire life and will continue to do. And it's probably the reason. One of the main reasons why I gravitated towards making this podcast was I was not a kid who liked to lose. At some point in my life, losing became unacceptable to me. When did we as a society evolve to think that that was a good idea? To raise our children in that concept? As a part of human nature? No villains. Maybe. Maybe that's the way we go forward. Maybe shame is so. Shame over failure is so painful that we get better at things and we stop failing. I don't know. I don't know anything anymore. Thanks so much so much for listening to Fail Better. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now's the perfect time because guess what? You can listen completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content like the full version of my post interview thoughts that you won't hear anywhere else. That's more of my recaps on interviews with guests like Chris Carter and Emily Deschanel. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or head to lemonade premium.com to subscribe on any other app. That's lemonadapremium.com don't miss out. Failbetter is production of Lemonada Media in coordination with King Baby. It is produced by Keegan Zema, Aria Brachi and Donnie Matias. Our engineer is Brian Castillo. Our SVP of Weekly is Steve Nelson. Special thanks to Carl Ackerman, Tom Kupinsky and Brad Davidson. The show is executive produced by Stephanie Wilson, Whittles Wax, Jessica Cordova Kramer and me, David Duchovny. The music is also by me and my band, the lovely Colin Lee, Pat McCusker, Mitch Stewart, Davis Rowan and Sebastian Modak. You can find us online at Lemonada Media and you can find me at David Duchovny. Follow Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership Foreign.

Gemma Spake (60:00)

To kick off your week feeling motivated and ready to take on whatever comes your way. I'm Gemma Spake, host of the psychology of your 20s, and I'd love for you to check out my new podcast, Mantra. Every Monday, I'll bring you a new mantra to help you grow, level up, and stay grounded no matter what life is throwing at you. We'll reshape your mindset, help you move through change, and bring fresh focus to your goals. Plus, I'll incorporate actual life lessons from my life and share journal prompts and a weekly challenge related to each Mantra. We'll hold each other accountable because I'm going to be taking part too. If you are ready to grow and make life happen on your terms, tune into Mantra and let's take this journey together. Join me Jemispeg every Monday and start your week with a new episode of Mantra. Wherever you get your podcasts.

Chelsea Clinton (60:58)

You know when you're just going about your busy day and a voice asks.

Steve Burns (61:02)

You something like why do people have crushes? Or do dogs know their dogs? The Brains on Podcast is here to help.

Chelsea Clinton (61:10)

Every episode answers tough questions with funny skits, cool facts, and more. It's a science show for kids of all ages. Whether you grew up with jfk, mtv, tlc, or tmz, Brainson is for you.

Steve Burns (61:23)

Listening may induce uncontrollable laughter and turn backseat squabbles into harmonious car trips.

David Duchovny (61:26)

Find Brainson wherever you get your podcasts.