Malala Yousafzai (4:19)

So much. That means a lot. Thank you.

Steve Burns (4:23)

Yeah, I mean, I was just saying, you know, in. In the first one, I came away from that first book with this sense that. That. That you really were some sort of superhero on planet Earth. You know, I think a lot of people project that upon you. And this book was so surprisingly relatable to me, and it was so funny. First of all, it's really funny and warm and human, and it just grounded my expectation of you in such a way that was even more powerful. Does that make sense? So I loved it, and thank you for writing it.

Malala Yousafzai (5:07)

Thank you. I mean, yes, I want people to know that I am a funny person. I'm not as serious as they think. And this is exactly why I wanted to write this book, because, you know, it has been a long journey for me trying to just ensure that I'm true to myself. Of course, like, when you receive recognition at such a young age, you internalize it. And I also internalized it that, you know, I even felt that I'm not supposed to have friends and I'm not supposed to have laughter and joy in my life. But I missed a lot of that in my life. And I became a very lonely person at this high school. Like, I thought nobody wanted to be friends with me. I thought I wasn't good enough anymore. So I wanted all of that to change for me because I thought that, you know, as. As a person, I really need to ensure that I am able to make friends and I am true to myself because this is how I will truly learn and grow. And so this became then part of my journey through college.

Steve Burns (6:07)

What is that like, though? What is it like to internalize, as you say, this. This image that people are projecting onto you, which is so intense, right? The. The youngest Nobel Peace Prize laureate, the bravest girl in the world, and people are saying all these you. And you have to in some way absorb them at a time in your life when you're still trying to discover who you actually are. Right. So how. What was that process like? How do you internalize that?

Malala Yousafzai (6:40)

You know, not a lot of people get a Nobel Peace Prize when they are still a teenager. So that was one of the challenges, honestly, because I thought, okay, who else have received this recognition? And it's given to people at a later stage in their life to, like, recognize their struggles and further support their movements. But in my case, you know, my work for girls education was recognized, you know, at a very early age that, you know, I remember when I was, you know, given the news about the Nobel Peace Prize. I was actually at high school in my chemistry class.

Steve Burns (7:16)

You were in chemistry class?

Malala Yousafzai (7:18)

Yes. And my school's deputy walked in and she called me outside, and she usually calls you when you are in trouble. And she informed me that Nobel Peace Prize. And I was like, you know what? Not bad, not bad today. So it just felt surreal. But after that, I just went back to another class and I finished my school day because I had no idea how I was supposed to process all of that. But I knew that education is the most important thing for me. So I said, at least I'm going to finish my school day and then think about this prize and what follows.

Steve Burns (7:50)

See, now that's pretty baller right there, Malala. So, like, you're in chemistry and someone says, malala, please report to the office, blah, blah, and you think you're in trouble. And then they're like, by the way, you just won the Nobel Peace Prize. And your response is, cool, that's cool. It's only fifth period and I have other stuff to do, so we'll worry about that when I get home. Right? So that's pretty amazing right there. But did. Did it change your brain immediately? Were you immediately, like, I am different now. I am a Nobel Prize laureate. I must do Nobel Prize laureate things. I have to nod solemnly at a globe all day. Like, did it change your personal expectations of who you are?

Malala Yousafzai (8:32)

I started with a big dream and that was to see every girl in school. So like, I have constantly felt this pressure that I don't deserve any of this recognition until I see the day when the last out of school girl enters a classroom. So, you know, to me, I thought this is now a lot of responsibility on my shoulders where I have to prove, you know, myself and also ensure that we, like, I see this dream come true in my lifetime. And because I was very, very young, like, I wanted to see things change immediately. And I knew that a lot of presidents and prime ministers at the time wanted to meet with me. So I thought, you know, when they say that they care about girls education and they are so inspired by my story and they want to do something for girls, I felt that they mean it and that like, tomorrow, like, things will look different and all girls would be in school. Of course, it's been a long journey for me and I have realized that it requires A lot of work. And you know, personally, for me, like, the work that I do through Malala Fund, it is about empowering education activists, making a very strong case for girls education, highlighting the benefits of it for our community, like how it helps us tackle climate change or reduce poverty and grow economies. And I realized that it takes a long time actually to see real systemic change where, you know, every girl gets into school. But at the time I was like, you know, I'm just 17 and now I have to prove myself and do, you know, do I deserve it and. And like, I am now responsible for making it happen. But I have learned so much along the way now that, you know, it's. For me now it's holding leaders accountable. It is their responsibility to ensure that no child is left behind. And through we do advocacy, we raise awareness and we push leaders to make the right decisions. But, yeah, it's been a long journey since then.

Steve Burns (10:27)

I can't even imagine. I can't imagine. Okay, you talk about it's a long journey. Let's just real quick go back to the start. You know, you write so beautifully in both books about the Swat Valley. And I looked it up on the Internet and it looks incredibly beautiful, which I did not. No, it looks like. It looks like paradise, you know. So what was it like for you before? You know, what was it like for you before the entire universe knew your name? You know, what. What was it like being. Because you were outspoken, you were already an activist basically when you were like 10 years old. You know, when you were. Were you in Pakistan?

Malala Yousafzai (11:06)

I had very little normal childhood because everything changed for us. The Taliban took control of her hometown when I was just 10 years old. And they started imposing restrictions on women. They would not allow them to go to a market. And then they announced a ban on girls education. So the Taliban's control directly was impacting me. They were bombing schools as well. So because of the circumstances, I became an activist. I just could not see any other option. I knew that things wouldn't change by itself. And if I want to see my future differently, at least I can just talk about it. I can share my story and raise awareness. So that's how it began for me. But, you know, I was. I was. I was also, you know, very little at the time. I had two younger brothers, and I was like, you know, a mischievous kid at home, and I loved having fun, and I had a lot of friends at school as well, so I was like living a normal life. But. But that changed for us very quickly.

Steve Burns (12:07)

Not every 10 year old reacts to that injustice by picking up a megaphone, you know, and so where does that, where do you think that fire in you comes from? I know your father was an activist as well, right.

Malala Yousafzai (12:24)

So I usually talk about two things. One is that I had a very supportive father and he was outspoken about these issues. So I was following her, his footsteps. But also at the same time, I got a taste of what freedom feels like for women. And we were growing up in a very patriarchal society and now we were seeing these extremist, like armed men who were trying to reshape everything for women and girls. And they just did not want to see women being educated and girls following their dreams. So I realized that there's something really powerful about girls learning that it like scares these men with guns. They're just scared of a girl with a book, you know. So that's when I realized that, you know, we have to protect this right, no matter what. And even if it means risking your life, like, it doesn't matter because it's for the, for the bigger mission of ensuring that girls have a life and dignity and they have the right to learn.

Steve Burns (13:26)

You talk, you talk. I think in the first book about how the Taliban sort of arrived. Almost like a storm, right? Wasn't there like a radio guy? There was like a guy on the radio and he developed all of this influence and sway over your part of the world and it just got worse and worse and worse. And then they just sort of were everywhere. You know, I'm curious now, you were also, you know that you also had some favorite TV shows at the time that were very influential in your life. And I was curious about that. How much, how much of the west kind of radiated and made it down into there. What else were you watching? What were you looking at at the time?

Malala Yousafzai (14:09)

You know, we received different forms of content at different stages. Titanic was everywhere, I think a lot of people. And WWE wrestling somehow was quite popular. And I believed that it was real. So I knew about John Cena.

Steve Burns (14:27)

Seriously? You seriously believed it was real? You thought those people were killing each other every day?

Malala Yousafzai (14:33)

I was like, yeah. And I was always on John Cena's side. So, yeah, sure broke my heart when I learned it was scripted and then like. And pop artists, yeah, they also became like quite popular. But we were not like in the cities in Pakistan, life is very different. So I was more from like the mountainous areas and, you know, we would get like a sort of, these things would reach to us, but you know, much later. So like A delayed reach to our part.

Steve Burns (15:08)

Right, right, right, right. I remember that one story there was beautiful program you talked about where some. Somebody had like a magic pencil or something. And that magic pencil could basically do anything. Like you could. It was almost like a genie. It could fulfill wishes. You could do anything you wanted with that magic pencil. And you would talk about, oh yeah, I want that magic pencil so I can give girls education. Right. Like, you immediately identified what you. How you would redraw the world even when you. When you were like nine or ten years old, right?

Malala Yousafzai (15:45)

Yeah. I think kids everywhere are ambitious. They dream big and they think about making the world a better place. And at the time I just simply wanted a magic pencil. And I thought by that I can maybe fix these problems that we face in the world. So I had this passion for finding that magic in some ways. But when the extremists took control of Swat Valley and I became an activist, I realized that actually I had the magic the whole time. And that was my story and my voice. So we all can find our magic in our own way. It could be our art, our voice, and we can use our role to make the change that we want to see.

Steve Burns (16:30)

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So the Taliban comes in, takes over. They're literally bombing schools. And you're walking to school through bombs because you will not, not go to school. And eventually you're very much on their radar. And there's the assassination attempt on the bus when you're 15 and then you kind of wake up in Birmingham, right?

Malala Yousafzai (22:23)

Yes.

Steve Burns (22:24)

Yeah. And then you're like, oh, I'm in Birmingham now.

Malala Yousafzai (22:27)

Outside a window from the hospital, I was like, wait, there are no mountains here. Like, there are no rivers here. Like, where am I? It's just concrete buildings and roads and traffic lights and that's. That's it. So that was a big change for me and I was brought to the UK for my treatment. I received surgeries and I was getting medication to recover from the Taliban injuries. And, you know, I. I did not know for how long we would stay in the uk. It was quite a difficult situation. We were still receiving threats from the Taliban. So then I started focusing on, like, doing work for girls education globally. And I was preparing for my UN speech and I also started my education at a local school. And I did not know if this would, like, go on for a long time or not. But, you know, I just thought, like, my life just was disrupted and I was now, you know, like, I felt that I was like a flower and, you know, somebody plucked me from one place and then put me in a completely different world. So, yeah, then we had to readjust to that whole new life in the uk.

Steve Burns (23:36)

My God, that's exactly what happened to you, right? Your life was disrupted in every meaningful way possible. There's difficult to think of ways in which it was not utterly redefined by that moment and then immediately, boom, now you're an international symbol of something. At that time, how much of that expectation of the world were you absorbing? How much of that was getting in? How much of that were you perceiving?

Malala Yousafzai (24:01)

I just was processing what it means to be called a global activist for girls education and receive these titles. And I thought that I'm not supposed to be living up to these expectations. So, you know, in a way, I thought that if you are recognized as a global advocate for girls education, it means you have to make a compromise on these other things that are a part of your life. And that includes friendship, love, and a bit of normalcy that, you know, it's okay if I am lonely at school and I don't have friends with whom I can just giggle and gossip, but maybe that is just part of my life. So I was internalizing it. I thought that this is to be expecting my life, but I also knew that I could not carry that for that long, and I really wanted it to change. I would talk to my best friend from Pakistan all the time on the phone and just ask her about our school days and what every friend was up to. So just, like, reconnect with my old life. But at this high school, you know, at lunch, I would just be holding my tray wondering, like, does anybody want to sit with me or not? Or, you know, by the end of my high school, I actually just made one friend, and that's because she fell out of her best friend. So I sort of filled in the gap. But I wanted college life to be very different. I said, you know, high school was very, very challenging. But at high school, I want friends more than anything.

Steve Burns (25:33)

Yeah. Yeah. Then you go to Oxford, and that's kind of where this picks up, really, right? That you just kind of picks up, like after high school when you go to Oxford. And I gotta say, Malala, the whole thing plays out like a beautiful romantic comedy. I was so surprised and so charmed at. At. At how fun. Like, I wanted. I'm like, I want to go to Oxford with Malala. Like, it sounds really fun. Like, it was so relatable to think that, oh, here's this person that I sort of idealized and made into this Unassailable, indelible, carved out of marble. Hero. And she's struggling with the same stuff I struggled with in high school and the same stuff that I struggled with when I went to college. She's freaked out to go to the dance. She's freaked out about if she's wearing the right thing and, you know, and she just wants to make friends. And there's a great scene in this book where you're like, okay, I'm here, and you're walking down the hall, and you're like, there's Albert Einstein. There's Ronald Reagan. There's a picture of me, you know, and that had to have been bizarre to try to be normal and regular schmegular, while at the same time, there's the shadow with you of your greatness, you know, like, can you talk about that a little?

Malala Yousafzai (26:54)

Oh, where do I even start? You know?

Steve Burns (26:56)

Yeah.

Malala Yousafzai (26:56)

I think college years were truly transformative for me, and I wanted to make friends more than anything. I did not want to be a lonely student. I was really, really scared of that. So I remember sitting in the library, thinking about how many books I had to read. And then I looked outside the window and I saw these friends giggling together. And I said, you know what? Like, this moment with friends who are my age will never come again in my life. So I said, you know what? I will. I'll come back to these essays another time. I'll do the readings later. But I want to go and enjoy my time with my friends. So friends helped me find that comfort zone where I felt that I could be true to myself. I didn't have to think twice before what I said. And it was not like everything I was saying was a political statement. And I was anxious in the beginning, but they gave me that comfort zone. And I made the most amazing friends at college.

Steve Burns (27:56)

Oh, yeah, you. Yeah. You write about them really well in the book. There's some great friends, Cara, especially, like, you have some. There's some really amazing. You had a. You had. You had a strong crew, Malala. You really did. And that. What a gift that is. You know, the friends that I made that I mind melded with in college that way. I mean, I'm 52 years old now. I am still friends with those people. There's something special about that, that time, isn't there? That time when we're all, like, trying to figure out who we are, and when we do that with those people, those people become family. They become our people.

Malala Yousafzai (28:31)

I felt that I could be, you know, a person of my, my age, I don't have to speak like a 50 year old state woman or something that I can be having a normal conversation like any other person in their early 20s.

Steve Burns (28:47)

I think you, you were taking like a gym class, like a rowing class or something. You signed up for like a boat rowing class. It happened early in the morning. You're like, I gotta go to this class. So you, you throw on a pair of jeans and like a jacket and you go to the rowing class and someone takes a picture of you and it makes it to Pakistan and Pakistan melts down. Like there's a cultural meltdown and everyone freaks out because you're wearing jeans and a jacket. And I thought, man, that sucks. Like that right there. That has to suck. Like this person just went to class one day and wore normal clothes and has is such a symbol to so many people that there's a conspicuousness to that simple choice. She's literally standing by a body of water wearing denim. And now it's a whole thing at home where your mom freaks out and people are mad about it and you have to like mitigate this. What was that like? What's it like to, to be in school just making an incredibly innocuous choice like that and having all these global consequences?

Malala Yousafzai (29:59)

It was absolutely shocking. I thought that, you know, people will make a controversy out of something, but genes. In the end, that's what shocked me. I said, why they pick jeans? And then I remember having these conversations with my parents on a phone call because they were freaking out. And I told them that when my brothers moved to the uk, they switched to jeans and T shirts immediately. We were not seeing any backlash. And none of our conservative relatives were calling us and asking us to like, you know, explain it or defend ourselves or switch the dress code. So I said, it only becomes a problem when a girl decides to make these choices for herself. And it's only a problem like when my mom and I make a decision for ourselves. And then I just told my parents that, you know, like, you know, there's nothing that we can do about it. The best way for me to respond to it is just keep wearing jeans, you know?

Steve Burns (30:57)

Yeah, hell yeah.

Malala Yousafzai (30:59)

And this is a sad reality that women in so many parts of the world are experiencing. Like people have something to say about what women wear. Is it too modest or too conservative or, you know, this or that. And like they're supposed to represent the culture. I'm like, if a woman decides to wear jeans, that's her right. If she decides to wear a Headscarf. That's her right. It's about women having these choices for themselves.

Steve Burns (31:24)

Yeah. Yeah. It's not because you were a Nobel laureate and a famous person that everyone was upset that you were wearing jeans. It's because you were a woman not wearing the right clothes, essentially. Right. That. That was. That's at the core of it. And I think it's great. I think you should only wear jeans from now on. You know, like, you're just like. You're like, oh, in a way, Malala, in that moment, you were everything the Taliban didn't want you to be. And I think that's like a great moment in the book. You're like, I'm a woman in school wearing jeans and. Sorry, you know, Sorry, not sorry. My favorite part of your book is falling in love. You write that you were very reluctant about it at first. So how. What changed? How did love. How did falling in love change your hesitation, change your perception of what marriage was?

Malala Yousafzai (32:18)

So, firstly, I had to embrace love. Like, you know, I became very self conscious, and I thought that, you know, the. The way I had faced trolling online, like, commenting about how my smile doesn't look the same anymore and I have facial asymmetry, and that's because of the Taliban bullet, which injured my facial nerve. So I thought, okay, like, nobody would ever love me. And even if somebody does say that they love me, it's not true love. They're just, like, lying to me. So I meet this guy, and, you know, he's incredible. But then I am like, but how do I prove it? Like, is there, like, a piece of paper where we could just, like, prove it or some test we can do where they scan it? They're like, this person's emotions are all real and this person truly, truly loves you. But then I realized that, you know, it's in life there are so many uncertainties. I cannot, like, predict a perfect life, but I have to trust what I see. And this guy's brilliant. The way he treats me, the way he shows his affection. I am happier in his company. Like, you know, the. The times that we have together, eating together, sharing a meal and, you know, playing sports or I. Like, he has brought so much laughter and joy into my life, so I just wanted to live with him. So then I realized that, you know, yes, it's really important for me to embrace this love. But before that, I have to love myself. And I overcame my own insecurities as well. So I was like, you know, you know, what if he tells you he loves you accept it. Like, you can't prove it more than that. And then the second part was marriage itself. And I had seen girls my own age in Pakistan in school married off, and they lost their dreams and their future. And I also realized that women in general have to make more compromises in marriages. They have to. You know, it affects their income. It affects their career. And then I said, you know, why have more problems in your life? So stay away from marriage. But then I also. But then I wanted to be with him as well. So I was in this, like, dilemma. Like, what do I do? I took my time, of course. I, you know, was chatting with my friends all the time. I was debating about this issue, and I was even reading, like, feminist authors about love. And I was like, maybe bell hooks can help me out on this, or Virginia Woolf might give me a clue, like, what am I supposed to do here? But then I realized that it's the time that we have spent together that tells me who he truly is. So then I decided to get married. I was like, you know what? Let's just give it a try and find out. But it's been amazing. Like, we have been married for four years, and we are amazing friends, and life is just more beautiful.

Steve Burns (35:17)

Oh, I love it. I won't spoil the whole book. It's a great scene in the book. Oh, my God. I'm just sitting here telling you about how much I love your book, but I love you. Basically gave him an Excel sheet to fill out. At one point, you're like, look, this is cool. I'm into it. But fill out this entrance exam for me, please. And. And he fills it out. And. Because you were a little apprehensive, anxious about it, right? I mean, love is scary. At least in my experience. It's one of the scariest things. You were terrified, right? Yeah. So. And he said the greatest thing. He was like, look, there's. There's no magic bullet here. There's. There's no magic answer to any of this. He said, like, there's no magic answer that. That I can use to make you feel better, but I really like you, you know? Like, he. He was like, spot on, man. He's good. Real good. So the whole world. The whole world is super familiar with all the stuff that Malala is not afraid of. Right. They call you the bravest girl in the world who stood up to the Taliban and all of this. But I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about kind of inheriting your fear and encountering and revealing Your fear in college. Tell us a little bit about the bong incident.

Malala Yousafzai (36:51)

Yeah, you know, I thought the bong experience would be a very fun story, but of course, it took a different turn. When I was trying bong for the first time with my friends, I just had no idea how it would affect me. And the moment I inhaled it, I just felt that I could not move anymore. I froze. And it took me back to the flashbacks of the Taliban attack. I thought that I didn't remember the incident, but that night, I was watching everything in repeat. I felt that I was not alive. I felt that I had been shot again. And it was just like, a terrifying night. And I, like, I just could not cope with it. This had never happened to me before, and I was just terrified. I thought if I closed my eyes and I went to sleep, I would never be able to wake up again. And after that, I did not feel the same anymore. I was getting panic attacks and. And had anxiety after that. Even my friend started noticing it. A friend of mine then suggested that I see a therapist. And I was very skeptical about therapy. I was like, oh, this is for the people who are, like, weak and who are going through, like, something, but, like, that's not me. I thought, like, nobody understands what I'm going through. But also, I'm supposed to be a strong, brave person. Like, I don't think I need that. But at the same time, I also was so disappointed with myself that I could not live up to the expectation of being brave anymore because small things scare me. And I'm just, like, terrified. But I cannot even comprehend it that why could a small thing trigger my anxiety? And why am I finally feeling so scared of small things? When I went for my first therapy session, because I said, you know what? Let's give it a try. Let's see if it works or not. I told my therapist all of these struggles that I was going through, and then I was like, give me some medication now. Let's fix this. But then she helped me understand that therapy is a process. And then I remembered that I was actually offered therapy as part of my initial treatment in the uk, where I was receiving surgeries and getting medication as well. But my family and I refused to get the therapy treatment because I thought that, you know, I'm able to, like, recover from the injuries and I'm a strong person. And so, like, in that moment, I felt that, you know, seven years without therapy after the attack, like, we had just, like, left it behind. And this was. And this was the unaddressed part of my recovery. So I started getting therapy many years later. But I'm so glad that I received it and I continue therapy. It has really helped me a lot and I talk openly about it because I think we need to raise more awareness about it.

Steve Burns (39:53)

I actually really love the idea of a cocktail at night by the fire. The heavy glass, the clink of the ice, the I say, the relaxing ritual of it all. But what I do not like is the way alcohol makes me feel the next day as a 52 year old guy, which is foggy and bad to a degree that it's simply not worth it. When I first heard of non alcoholic spirits, though, I was pretty skeptical. I assumed they would taste like compromise. Then I tried Little Saints and that's like a real cocktail experience without the alcohol. It's layered, complex, very grown up. There's zero sugar, like five calories, non intoxicating. It feels like something you could enjoy by the fire, not like something you're just settling for. They also use functional botanicals to add a subtle sense of calm and clarity. Nothing. Woo woo. Just a smoother landing at the end of the night. So if you love cocktails but not the AfterMath, visit little saints.com and you use promo code alive to get 15 off your first order. That's a L I V E@littlesaints.com Discover your magic hour. Look, I know you're wildly busy and I know that because literally everyone is. And that's why I appreciate anything that can quietly make my life easier. And that's where MyDEA comes in. They make genuinely wow worthy appliances that take the work off your plate. Like they've got that one touch autofill French door fridge. You press a button.

Malala Yousafzai (41:30)

Boop.

Steve Burns (41:30)

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Chelsea Clinton (42:10)

do you ever find yourself scrolling through headlines, especially health headlines, and just thinking that can't be true? Well, I certainly do. 2025 brought us some ridiculous far fetched health claims and some especially terrifying changes in public health. What's in store for us in 2026? I'm Chelsea Clinton, and we're back with season two of my podcast, that Can't Be True. Follow along and catch up on season one, wherever you get your podcasts.

Steve Burns (42:46)

I think it's really interesting, Malala, that you said that when you were in the hospital, they offered you therapy, and you and your family were like, you rejected it. You said, no, no, no, no. That's not. That's not something I need after what is probably the most traumatic event anyone could imagine.

Malala Yousafzai (43:05)

When I recovered from the Taliban attack, I remember everybody was calling me brave and courageous, and I thought, it means that I'm not supposed to be scared. I cannot have any fear inside me. And it's true, because, you know, I kept going. I was advocating for girls education globally, and I knew that the best way to fight against extremism and the extremist groups like the Taliban is to educate more girls. And. But then, like many years later, when I felt scared and I had anxiety, and I was going through a very difficult time internally, then when I. That's when I was reflecting on my own understanding of what bravery actually is, and I reflected on it, and I realized that actually true bravery is doing what you believe in, even when you are scared. So all of these challenges, these difficulties did not stop me from doing the work that I do. And I just want everybody out there who is committed to bringing a change in their community but sometimes feel anxious or worried, concerned. And, you know, they might feel like they. You know, they're. That they're somehow, like, failing. But I want them to know that I went through the same feelings myself as well. But for as long as we keep it going and we don't give up and we stay committed to our mission, you know, we are doing our job. And. And that is how I define bravery now.

Steve Burns (44:38)

I love it. Yeah. Yeah, It's. It's not about not being afraid. It's about being afraid and moving forward anyway. Right?

Malala Yousafzai (44:47)

Yes.

Steve Burns (44:48)

That's wonderful. Let's talk a little bit about the Malala Fund and what it is, what it has been and what its mission is now and what it's up to.

Malala Yousafzai (45:01)

I started Malala Fund when I was still a teenager, and I had this big vision. Ensure that every girl can go to school. Now, we have worked for more than 10 years. We have supported more than 400 organizations, given $70 million in grants, and reached to more than 22 million students. But I am Even more ambitious in my vision for the coming years. And my goal is that we protect the right to education for girls and that we secure resources for it. So it's really the money and, like, protecting the right to education for girls that I'm focused on. And I highlight these two things because, you know, when it comes to the. When it comes to secondary schools for girls or high schools for girls, when it comes to quality teaching or sanitary or wash facilities, there's a huge gap in investment. So we want to ensure that governments and the relevant organizations are putting money into girls education. There are 122 million girls out of school, and we will not be able to, like, see a change if you're not putting an effort into, like, ensuring that we are investing in girls education. And the right to education must also be protected because there are so many countries and states where, like, the government, the law does not protect this right. Afghanistan is one extreme example of that, where the Taliban are actually banning girls from going to school. They don't allow women to go to universities. And, you know, what's happening in Afghanistan is such an extreme case. But it's also like, reminding us that, you know, the right to education at the international, like, legal platform is not fully protected for girls. You know, Afghan girls have not seen their classroom for more than four and a half years. And there's, like, very little change that we have seen, very little uproar from world leaders. But I just look up to the bravery and the courage of Afghan women and girls. We have been supporting them through Malala Fund. They are pushing leaders to hold the Taliban accountable. Because I believe the Taliban are war. Like, they're like criminals. What they're doing must be recognized as a crime. They're systemically oppressing women. They're, you know, the women in Afghanistan live under a gender apartheid. That's what they call it. And at the same time, these activists are also providing alternative education to Afghan girls while they are living under the education ban. And I had a conversation with four Afghan girls who are part of these underground secret schools, and one girl was telling me that they are not giving up on their fight to keep learning. And one girl said that even reading a book alone in her room is an act of resistance for her. Oh,

Steve Burns (47:55)

wow. Didn't you say. Didn't. Didn't you write about how. You wrote about how the collapse of Afghanistan actually triggered more panic attacks for you, more ptsd, Right? Just watching that happen, it's been very

Malala Yousafzai (48:11)

challenging to see the fall of Afghanistan, but I think you Know, it's the Afghan women who are facing the brutality of the Taliban, and they need our support and solidarity. So I know that I'm personally going through, you know, challenges, panic attacks, but I just cannot imagine what they experience and see every day. So it just reminds me that we have to be there with them as their sisters, as their brothers, and support them in their fight against the Taliban's extremist regime.

Steve Burns (48:43)

How do you think it's going globally? Do you think that women's rights, girls rights, are moving forward in this moment, or do you think that we're seeing an erosion right now?

Malala Yousafzai (48:58)

I think there's definitely an erosion happening, and it is concerning. On the one hand, you know, sometimes we feel like we are sort of going back or a lot is taken away from women. But at the same time, I also feel that maybe it is rather the real picture of where the world actually was. Maybe we were under the wrong impression of the world. Maybe we were under this wrong impression that the world had moved quite far ahead in a fight for gender equity. But the fact that Afghan girls can be banned from school and, you know, there's nothing happening, the Taliban are not held accountable is just a reminder that there is still so much more that we need to do. We need to share our support and solidarity with Afghan women. They are working on codifying gender apartheid in the Crime Against Humanity treaty. And I know that these words sounds. I know that these words sound too technical, but what this basically means is that we need protection for women's rights in the international system by law, so that the Taliban can be held accountable and that the countries who normalize relationships with the Taliban can also be held accountable, and that we have a mechanism to build more pressure. And this is important not just for women and girls in Afghanistan, but for women and girls everywhere, because it's just a reminder that what we like, we have secured for women and girls can be taken away from us any moment. So the fight for Afghan women is actually more of a global fight for women and girls.

Steve Burns (50:41)

Why is girls education such a foundational answer to a world that does seem to be increasingly fragile? Why is it the answer to so many things, in your opinion?

Malala Yousafzai (50:55)

Wow. This is one of those questions that I would love to, like, talk about for hours and hours, but for me, it's about girls deserving this opportunity to make choices for themselves in their lives. And they are incredible leaders and change makers, and they are. They are the future. So investing in their education is actually investing in this amazing future for ourselves. And we have Done so much research on how educating girls can help us reduce poverty, reduce the likelihood of wars and conflicts, improve economies, help us tackle climate change. And one study that we did said that if we give education to all girls around the world, it could add up to $30 trillion to the world economy. Educating girls is one of the best investments we can make to have a sustainable, safer future for the world. But then I'm like, it's just a human right. Like, every child deserves to learn. Why do we have to fight for it? Like, you know, we all deserve to go and read a book, to go and specialize in a profession, to go and just, like, become the next innovators and creators and, you know, be involved in the communities that we create. And girls deserve this chance. And, you know, our communities are in a much better place when women and girls are a part of it. I don't think, you know, we are reaching our full potential when half of the population is held back.

Steve Burns (52:39)

I agree with all of that, Malala. I have loved speaking to you. I have really, truly loved speaking to you. And I love your books. I think they're just. Just wonderful. Thank you so much, Malala, for stopping by the window today. I truly love speaking with you, and I hope we can do it again sometime soon.

Malala Yousafzai (53:01)

Thank you. Bye.

Steve Burns (53:02)

Bye. Come on. Okay, full disclosure. That was a big deal interview for me, and I was pretty nervous to do it. A couple of thoughts that I did have, I had a lot. But my first thought was, when we turn someone into an icon or into a symbol, we end up sanding off all the rough and messy parts and polishing them into something perfect and therefore almost unavailable in a way, if that makes sense. And when we do that, we lose something. And I think the thing we lose is the human part of. Of the hero. And it's oversimplified to do that, because human beings are not simple. They are messy, and they are complex. Like, look at Malala, right? She is two truths at the same time. She is undeniably, absolutely, the extraordinarily brave, heroic hero who looked the Taliban right in the eye and did not blink. But she's also just like a regular schmegular young woman who wants to go to university and do fun stuff and is totally afraid of all of the same tiny, ridiculous, heartbreakingly human stuff that scares us. And that makes me wonder, do we have more in common with our heroes than we think? Is it possible that courage, true courage, the kind that feels unreachable, comes from that same fear and the same faulty wiring that we all share. I mean, is it really like the David Bowie song I don't know. I think it's all about how we meet our fear. What are you most afraid of? And how do you face that fear? Well, listen, I know it's cold out here and thanks for coming by. I really appreciate it. And you look great. You Do. It. Alive with Steve Burns is a Lemonada Media original. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now's the perfect time. You can listen to the show completely ad free, plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content from me as I reflect on this episode. Just press subscribe on Apple podcasts, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. That's lemonadapremium.com Alive is hosted by me, Steve Burns and produced by Jeremy Slutskin. Our editor is Christopher Champion Morgan. Our associate producer is Akshay Tharabailu. Audio engineering by James Sparber. Lemonada's SVP of weekly programming is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Jessica Cordover Kramer, Stephanie Whittles, Wax, and me. We'll see you next week. And you look great, by the way.

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Chelsea Clinton (58:06)

to make your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one bestselling author of the Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. My co host and happiness guinea pig is my sister, Elizabeth Craft. That's me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood.

Malala Yousafzai (58:27)

Join us as we explore ideas and hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits.

Chelsea Clinton (58:32)

Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from Lemonada Media.