The Emotionally Awkward Cost of Money with Reema Khrais

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Emotionally Awkward Cost of Money"

Podcast: Alive with Steve Burns, Lemonada Media
Guest: Reema Khrais (Host of This Is Uncomfortable)
Date: November 5, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the complex, emotional dimensions of our relationship with money. Rather than focusing on practical financial advice, host Steve Burns and guest Reema Khrais discuss how money is never just about numbers – it’s about shame, safety, belonging, status, and the myriad emotions and stories we attach to it. They explore how our family backgrounds, cultural scripts, and social circumstances shape our money beliefs, often creating deeply ingrained anxieties or avoidances. The episode is reflective, candid, and filled with moments of vulnerability and humor as the pair try to untangle why money feels so fraught and personal.

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Key Topics & Insights

1. Money as More Than Currency

00:02–05:44

• Steve kicks off noting everyone’s emotional baggage with money, calling it “never just money.” It’s a stand-in for security, dignity, self-worth, etc.
  • “Money’s never just money, right? It always represents something. Security, dignity. ...For many, it simply represents food for the next day.” (Steve, 00:37)
• Reema agrees, having built her podcast around these hidden emotional stories:
  • "Money is very emotional. Right. It's about scarcity and shame and guilt and love..." (Reema, 05:56)

2. Personal Stories & Early Conditioning

06:00–11:20

• Both hosts discuss how early family messages and cultural scripts create lasting money patterns:
  • Reema: Growing up in an immigrant, middle-class, frugal family—money talk was discouraged and private, creating adult anxiety and avoidance.
    • “That silence almost made me more anxious... Money was something to keep behind closed doors.” (Reema, 09:33)
  • Steve: Catholic upbringing fostered the idea that poverty is moral and wealth is suspect.

3. The Four Money Scripts

11:28–16:53

• Reema explains financial therapy’s four “money scripts”:

  • Money Avoidance: “The people... who ignore financial statements, equate money with greed, and avoid looking at their finances.”
  • Money Vigilance: On top of finances/anxious/savers.
  • Money Worship: Believe money will solve all problems, put work before relationships.
  • Money Status: Self-worth equals net worth, value outward displays.

• Steve reflects on his own “prejudices about money” and how scripts are rarely logical.

  "I have this dichotomy... It is evil. Those who have it are evil. To want it is evil. ...Also, I feel like it is the solution to every problem I have."
  —Steve, 08:25

4. Money as a Placeholder: What’s Really at Stake?

16:54–27:43

• Both agree that money is “neutral” but loaded with projected value and meaning—often unconsciously assigned.
• Individual experiences (family strife, past betrayals) and cultural scripts mean that when we talk about money, we’re often talking past each other, each using a different “emotional language.”
  • "What's at stake isn't math. It's like, often meaning, right?" (Reema, 27:43)

5. Emotional Literacy vs. Financial Literacy

28:41–40:58

• Steve questions whether financial literacy even matters if we're missing emotional literacy.

• Reema: Emotional awareness is foundational—knowing the “why” behind your choices enables true change.

  • Pro tips from behavioral psychologist Katie Milkman: To overcome inertia, gamify tasks, pair obligations with rewards, or even use accountability platforms (e.g., STICK).

  "Our brains aren’t wired to do these things. ...We really have to, like, fool ourselves to some extent in order to do the things we know we should do but don’t want to do."
  —Reema (quoting Milkman), 31:59

6. Generational Wealth & the Changing American Dream

33:14–37:55

• Steve voices generational anxiety—will the fabled “wealth transfer” ever reach those dealing with debt and precarity?
• Reema: Yes, wealth gaps have only widened—those with family help continue to get ahead, while others “quietly adjust” their dreams.
  • "The gap between what so many of us were promised ...versus what we actually got.”_ (Reema, 35:12)
• New “American dream” jokes: “getting hit by a city bus and hoping you survive so you can sue”—funny, but bleak (Steve quoting a friend, 36:01).

7. Privilege & the Limits of Financial Advice

37:55–41:41

• Financial advice often assumes privilege (disposable income, generational wealth). Many aren’t even starting on the same playing field.
  • "We are not all starting in the same place... Financial advice assumes a baseline of privilege..." (Reema, 40:00)
• Reema’s family sent money abroad—a significant but hidden responsibility.

8. Making Money Conversations Less Taboo

41:41–44:29

• Reema is more open than most discussing money with friends. She tries to focus less on numbers and more on feelings/values (what do you want, what do you need?).
• Steve: Deep listening and sharing discomfort are key to empathy and breaking money taboos.

9. Cultural, Gender, and Individual Differences

45:10–48:43

• While gender, background, and class do matter, Reema finds that most relationships to money are highly individual—irrational beliefs persist across all backgrounds.
  • Stories include: heirs rejecting family money, women less likely to negotiate pay, couples fighting over arbitrary “needed” income numbers.

10. Safety, Security, and the Illusion of Control

48:43–53:22

• Steve names “safety” as his core money value—consistently moving the goalposts.
• Both recommend Buddhist teacher Pema Chödrön’s insight: groundlessness is the only certainty; no amount of money can make life permanent or fully safe.
  • "We're all craving and striving for certainty and safety and control...groundlessness is...the natural state of things." (Reema, quoting Chödrön, 50:39)
• Ultimate message: Seek emotional self-awareness, not just financial “success.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Money’s never just money, right? It always represents something. Security, dignity... For many, it simply represents food for the next day.”
  —Steve Burns, 00:37

• "I wanted to create a space where people could talk openly about their relationship with money...I want to get at that emotional piece because money is very emotional."
  —Reema Khrais, 05:54

• "That silence almost made me more anxious...money was something to keep behind closed doors."
  —Reema, 09:33

• "What's at stake isn't math. It's like, often meaning, right?"
  —Reema, 27:43

• "There really can't be financial literacy without emotional literacy. Which makes sense because... our relationship to [money] is fundamentally emotional."
  —Steve, 54:08

• On Pema Chödrön’s groundlessness:
  "If we can accept that groundlessness is the baseline, then life becomes a little more manageable....It's not a personal failure, it's just the reality."
  —Reema, 51:52

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Important Topic Timestamps

• 00:02–05:44 – Opening reflections on the emotional baggage of money
• 05:44–11:20 – Rema’s podcast purpose, childhood learning about money
• 11:28–16:53 – The four “money scripts” from financial therapy
• 16:54–27:43 – Money as a neutral tool, a placeholder for deeper needs
• 28:41–40:00 – Emotional literacy beats jargon; overcoming avoidance
• 33:14–37:55 – Millennials, generational wealth, the “new American Dream”
• 37:55–41:41 – The privilege embedded in mainstream financial wisdom
• 41:41–44:29 – Being open about money in friendships
• 45:10–48:43 – Cultural/gender/individual differences in money narratives
• 48:43–53:22 – “Safe” as a moving goalpost, Buddhist acceptance of uncertainty
• 54:08 onward – Closing thoughts: Making money less of a taboo topic

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Episode Tone & Style

• Reflective, vulnerable, conversational.
• Candid—both hosts reveal their own avoidances and anxieties about money.
• Gentle humor and warmth, even discussing heavy subjects.
• Intellectually curious, referencing literature (Pema Chödrön) and expert psychology.

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Conclusion / Takeaways

• Money is a mirror—reflecting values, fears, family histories, aspirations.
• Emotional awareness is as key as financial “know-how” in building a healthy relationship with money.
• There's no universal formula: Each person’s story is unique, wound up with individual experience and culture.
• Accepting groundlessness (the lack of perfect safety or certainty) can bring more peace—and real financial and emotional health—than relentless striving for control.

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“What would we value if we stopped asking money to do the job of making us whole?” —Steve (55:40)

For listeners: This episode is for anyone who's ever felt weird about money, avoided looking at their bank account, or wondered why the subject runs so deep. It's less about dollars and cents, more about hearts and histories.

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Transcript

[Steve Burns]

Lemonada. Hey, there you are. Come on in. It's raining out there. It's good to see you. Welcome to Alive. Hey, so do you remember when we were talking about how just totally fraught and weird money feels? Yeah, I've been stuck on that. There's tea. Do you want tea? Okay. And I'm not just talking about money like dollars and cents. I mean, I'm talking about money as. As feelings, you know, as safety, belonging, you know, all that stuff that you can't really spreadsheet. Thing is, seems to me money's never just money, right? It always represents something. Security, dignity. Right. For me, at one point in my life, money represented the opportunity to have an apartment where the shower was not in the kitchen. For many, many people, it simply represents food for the next day. You. What does money represent to you? Yeah. Yeah. Here's your tea. I mean, whatever it is, it's always personal, you know, shame or security or something really heavy, like the feeling that you're falling behind. So my question is, if money's carrying all this weight, what is the emotional cost of money? What do you think? Yeah.

[Rima Krais]

Huh?

[Steve Burns]

Let's go. Okay.

[Sarah Amos]

All right.

[Steve Burns]

So Rima Krais is the host of this Is Uncomfortable, a narrative podcast from Marketplace about life and how money messes with it. Remus Podcast has entered its 11th season in May 2025, and is currently has over 150 episodes. Prior to joining Marketplace, Rema was selected as a Bringing the World Home Fellow for the International center for journalists. In 20, she traveled to Turkey to report on the economic lives of Syrian refugees. She speaks fluent Arabic. I do not. She served as a Fletcher Fellow covering education policy for North Carolina Public Radio. She reported with NPR as a Joan B. Crock Fellow. She got her start in Audio journalism at WCHL 97.7, the Carolina Connection. Very hard for me not to say it that way. I tried to not say it that way, and yet I said it that way at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Oh, and she's here.

[Rima Krais]

Okay.

[Steve Burns]

Rima. Hi. How are you? It's very, very nice to see you. Thank you so much for being here with us today.

[Rima Krais]

No, this is such a joy for me. This is a very. I know you get this a lot, Steve, but this is such a surreal experience for me. I like. I grew up on you. I watched you. I mean, I was just talking to my sister the other day, and I was like, you know who's interviewing me? The guy that we used to watch all the time on the tv and then she started, but she busted out the. You know the song We've Got Mail?

[Steve Burns]

Oh, yeah, that's a good one. That's maybe the best song.

[Rima Krais]

It's a good one.

[Steve Burns]

That's maybe the best.

[Rima Krais]

That's a great song. And now it's just been, like, playing in my head for the last 48 hours.

[Steve Burns]

What is your sister's name?

[Rima Krais]

Hadeel. What is it he Deal?

[Steve Burns]

Hi, Hadil. It's me and Steve. Rima's really nice.

[Rima Krais]

She's gonna freak out.

[Steve Burns]

Thank you for. Thank you for helping me find all those clues and for getting the mail with me. I really appreciate it. And by the way, I love the name of your podcast. I'm really jealous of it, actually. It's like, that's so cool.

[Rima Krais]

We went through so many iterations. I. It took so long to land on that one, but once we found it, we were like, oh, that's it. That sounds great.

[Steve Burns]

I love it because you can say it so many ways. You can be like, this is uncomfortable, or you can be like, this is uncomfortable. Like, this is really uncomfortable. Yeah, this. Okay, this is uncomfortable. Like, it's. It's. It just. It speaks to me in very many different ways. But, yeah, it's great. You know, like, I love. I love the tale of. Of money, and I love. I love focusing on money as. As something that we have a specific. We each have a specific relation to and that we each develop stories around. And I'm wondering, after 10 years of getting people's stories on how they relate to money, what, um. Are there any big common. Commonalities that people share? Like what. Like, what are those? What's the Venn diagram?

[Rima Krais]

Yeah, I mean, I've had so many conversations. It's actually, it's been over five years because it's. We do about two sessions.

[Steve Burns]

Oh, sorry. Not 10 years. Not 10 years.

[Rima Krais]

No. I mean. I mean, I'll take it, though.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah.

[Rima Krais]

But, yeah, I really wanted to create a space where people could talk openly about their relationship with money. And, you know, I didn't necessarily want to teach people how to invest or how to draft a budget. I want to get at that emotional piece because money is very emotional. Right. It's about scarcity and shame and guilt and love. And so I think what I've gathered over the years, talking with so many people is that we attach so much meaning to money. And so, you know, I wanted to. To peel back some of the layers behind the decisions people make with their money, how they feel about it. Especially for my generation, you Know, I think those emotions are colliding with some really huge forces. People are graduating with like tens of thousands of dollars in student debt that can feel impossible to shake. Juggling side hustles because are falling behind. We're caring for aging parents at the same time when we're trying to hold on to our, you know, build our own sense of stability. And so I think there is this undercurrent of anxiety and comparison and shame. And so, yeah, I wanted to ask, like, what meaning are people assigning to these experiences? How do we carry them and how do we connect with each other through them? And so I think what I've learned, and I've learned so many things, but money, as usually, I've realized a stand in for so much more. For our desires and for our fears. Like, yes, we want our bank accounts to look different, but what we're really craving maybe is like freedom or a sense of safety or a sense of belonging or feeling worthiness. Right. And I think those desires, what I've learned too, don't come out of nowhere. They're shaped by so many things. How we were raised, what we saw growing up, the messages we absorbed from the world around us when it comes to, like, notions of success or gender roles or class or race and what it means to be secure or valuable. So, yeah, I think talking openly about all of those things has taught me that, like, yes, learning the nitty gritty of how to invest or budget is important, but because so many of us are riddled with shame or anxiety, it makes it so much harder for us to build healthy and lasting relationships with money because there's so much to uncover.

[Steve Burns]

Okay, okay. But even when you say that, when you say like, building a healthy and lasting relationship with money, I so hard, I'm so money averse that I'm like, I don't want to do that. Why would I do that? I don't want to do that. I don't want to do that. Isn't it wrong to do that? I have this, this, this sort of dichotomy in my head about money. And we'll get into the reasons why. Because you were saying a lot of stuff.

[Rima Krais]

I want to hear it.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah, I was like, yeah, but I have this dichotomy about money where I'm like, it is evil. Yeah, it is evil. Those who have it. Those who have it are evil. To want it is evil. And to crave it is, is, is, is not indicative of a healthy worldview. And you shouldn't want it and you shouldn't need it. Also, I feel like it is the solution to every problem I have.

[Rima Krais]

Yes.

[Steve Burns]

At the same time. And it is so fraught and it is so dissonant in my brain that I don. Talk about it. You know what I mean? Like, I'm like, if someone. If someone important says to me, hey, man, you really need to. Oh, God. For me, I mean, we've talked about this. But for me, the thing I want to do least in the world is a financial document. I fly into a rage if someone asks me to do a financial document, but I throw my head in the sand. I really do. And I don't really do that in other areas of my life, you know, Me too.

[Rima Krais]

You know, it's. I feel like such a hypocrite sometimes because I relate to, like, 99% of what you're saying, and yet I host this show about money. I mean, I've definitely gotten better over the years, but I do have these very avoidant tendencies, too. And I'm really curious to hear maybe what it, you know, what that story is like for you or what's behind that. But I know for me, I mean, there's so many reasons, but I think, you know, I grew up in a family that was like, you know, middle class. My parents were nurses or my dad was a nurse. My mom ended up going, becoming a nurse later in life. They're very frugal. They're immigrants, anytime. You know, I asked about finances. We were. I was reassured that we were okay, but I think that silence almost made me more anxious. And I wanted to know. But I got this message that, like, money was something to keep behind closed doors.

[Steve Burns]

Yep.

[Rima Krais]

And. And I think that was one of the many threads that shaped my relationship to money today because as an adult, I caught myself doing a version of that same thing where I'm, like, avoiding my own numbers. And I, you know, the story I would tell myself, and I'm curious if you relate to this is. Is that, like, well, future me will handle this when she's wiser, when she's richer, when she's more ready. And it was like this protective story, I think, that kept me from spiraling, spiraling into, like, well, what if I never get to buy a house? Or what if I can't afford childcare one day? But then it also meant that I was avoiding or delaying facing the choices I could have been making at that moment. Because I think, you know, obviously avoidance protects us. It's trying to do its job. It's trying to, like, keep us from staring directly at those fears. And so, yeah, I think, you know, I built a version of myself who I thought was going to be wiser and wealthier and in control. And that's comforting, but it also reinforced the idea that like, present me isn't capable of doing those things. And so I had to really untangle all of those. And I still have to whenever I'm like, feeling that resistance to looking and doing things about my, with my finances.

[Steve Burns]

And this is super common, right? This is super common. This is, you know, it's very rare to meet somebody who's like, money. Oh, yeah, I got that. What do you want to talk about?

[Rima Krais]

I got that. Yeah, yeah. Well, it's so funny. What you described is actually almost verbatim of what I hear from financial therapists all the time because. So I don't know if you're familiar with money scripts. It's this like, framework. It's like within the financial therapy community. Yes, yes. Yeah, it's like, you know, money therapists or financial therapists, they'll categorize it in different ways, but oftentimes they'll. They'll categorize our relationship with money into these four buckets. And one of them is money avoidance. So it's like money avoidance, money worship, money status and money vigilance. And. Yeah, and how you described yourself as a money avoider and how I describe myself is exactly how these therapists would characterize it. Like, they're the people in our lives who, you know, might ignore financial statements. They might equate money with greed and corruption. And so the tendency is to like, avoid. Maybe you're not looking exactly at what you're putting in the shopping cart or you're ignoring. You maybe have a tendency to overspend money vigilant people, they're the ones who you just described don't exist, which seems like they don't sometimes. But they're the ones on top of their finances who are trying to save money when they can. And they, I think anxiety tends to feed that. That behavior. And they're usually more private with their finances. And then money worshippers, they tend to think that money is what will ultimately make them happy, that it's the solution to all of their problems. And they're more likely to put things like work ahead of like friends and, and then the last one, money status seekers, they are more likely to link their self worth to their bank account and so they value outward displays of wealth.

[Steve Burns]

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[Rima Krais]

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[Rima Krais]

I.

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[Steve Burns]

I have thoughts. So the money avoidant I think we both get and I think most people totally right. The, the money vigilant, I know a few people like that and they aren't, they aren't pretty anxious. You know who you are. And they are, they are.

[Rima Krais]

We all know y'. All.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah. And they are pretty anxious. Now the last two, I think you said the money worshiper and the money. What was the last one?

[Rima Krais]

Money status seekers. And I think there's different language for.

[Steve Burns]

These, but yeah, I feel like those two are siblings or friends or kind of the same person in a different font in some way. Like right when I think of a money worshiper, you know, I'm like, oh, this is a person who has missed the point of all philosophical and spiritual wisdom. Right. They've not read a book or a good book and they've not paid attention to anything. I, I'm sure that is just an oversimplification and me just being highly judgmental, but I just think of greed and avarice and all of these terrible things that, you know, clearly you're missing the point. And the status seeker, I think that's part of what they're craving, right? That's part of what they're trying to attend attain is the status that they associate with money as it's a function of their greed.

[Rima Krais]

Right. You know, like maybe they saw people growing who they really value or admire and that's what they had. Right. And so that's what they're striving towards. And it's, you know, I usually, I have the same kind of reflection oftentimes when I think of like status or what is it, the worshipers, the admirers? It's this belief that once I have enough money, then I'll be able to relax, I'll be content. And I do think it reminds me of a conversation I had with someone many years ago who felt like that. And we actually paired her with a financial therapist to work through some of those feelings. And I think a lot of it was actually connected surprisingly to her childhood. And I know that's like often, you know, that the links that we, we go back to and there are obviously other forces at play, but in her case, she grew up lower class, but then I think had this experience of being in a boarding school where she felt left out and she felt like she didn't belong. And so she even found herself in adulthood, even though she was financially stable. She was like, I need more. I need more.

[Steve Burns]

I need more.

[Rima Krais]

I need money. Because I need money. And, you know, and that's a very common sentiment. And something that I hear a lot from financial therapists and people I've talked to is like, to counter that feeling, sometimes you really need to ask yourself, like, well, what is it that you're actually in pursuit of? Like, what is it that's actually meaningful to you? Because money is the. The. The. The tool, right? It's not like, what you actually need. The money's a tool to get what you need. And maybe that looks different for everyone. Maybe for you, that's, you know, you want to be in a cabin out in the middle of nowhere. And, you know, maybe for other people, you want to travel. That is what I want. Yes. Or maybe for other folks, you want to travel, or maybe you want to be generous and give back to the people you love, but you just really have to be specific about what that is. Otherwise it can be this maddening chase, and it's not fulfilling.

[Steve Burns]

I think you're right. You know, all these. What I was trying to get is that I have all of these prejudices about money. Like, I'm very. I have a lot of assumptions about money, and. And they're very prejudiced and they're very strange, and they are very informed, I'm sure, by the way, that I observed money growing up and. And even as I was starting my career. But. But I. But I do think that that money, if I get some clarity around it, I. I do see that money is itself neutral.

[Rima Krais]

It is.

[Steve Burns]

It is a tool. Right. As you say, it is a tool, but it's the value we assign to it that becomes the problem. Like you say. You say it's a placeholder, and that sounds exactly right to me. It is a representation of value, and that's where it kicks open the door within. Right. Because then you get to decide what. What is value? What do I value?

[Rima Krais]

And oftentimes we don't know. Like, it takes a lot of intentional work to figure that out. I still feel like I'm figuring that out to some degree. Right. Like, oh, for sure. Because you really. Yeah. You really have to. I mean, it's like with anything in life, you really have to figure, like, differentiate what it is that you believe and what is important to you from what society and what your family says is important to you. Because, you know, I'm always surprised by how little we actually understand our own relationship with money. Because, like I've said, you know, so much of it, so much of how we handle it is driven by our unconscious beliefs that will lead to those scripts. Right. Because it's, like, comes down to the messages that we internalized when we were younger from how we saw our families handle money our communities talked about, about the rich or the poor. Because we connect emotions to money before we even have words to describe those emotions. And then we carry those associations with us throughout adulthood, and then they turn into beliefs that shape our relationship to money. And not even that. Like, sometimes you can have experiences, I think, in adulthood. Right. That end up shaping your relationship to money. I can give an example. I always think of this couple that I talked to many years ago where she. The woman was really anxious about being the one in control of the finances. She was like, I need to be the one who's handling everything. And her husband or my partner at the time felt really infantilized. He was like, I don't feel like I have any power in this situation. And it was very insulting to him. And once we, like, stripped back the layers, she explained how in her previous marriage, she let her husband control of the finances, and he ended up committing what financial therapists will call financial infidelity, which is. He just didn't share with her that they were actually underwater. He lied to her about holding, like, being in school when he really wasn't. Whatever. There was just a lot of betrayal involved, and that left this really painful memory. And. And it. It made her, like, recoil whenever it came to talking about money and finances with future partners. And so she was showing up in this relationship as someone who was hurt and someone who didn't want to repeat those past patterns. And so I think oftentimes I'm getting into, like, you know, territory of, like, how to deal with money and relationships. But oftentimes you really do want to meet the person with where they're at, with the baggage that they have, with the history that they have. And sometimes that might look unfair on the surface, but I think sometimes you need to work with where someone is, and then you can build the trust, and it can evolve over time. Yeah, so so many factors influence how we show up with our. Yeah. With our money.

[Steve Burns]

I do think it's certainly in my lived experience, but I think in. I think it's common in people I talk to, my friends that a lot of it Goes back to, as you say, what you saw as a kid. You know, like. Like, money's in the house with you. You know, like how the relationship. The family relationship to money. I mean, I remember.

[Rima Krais]

Yeah. What do you. I'm curious to hear about your relationship.

[Steve Burns]

Well, you know, I just knew that. I knew that when we were really little, we kind of had some. And then we didn't have any. Right. And then it was. And then it was stressful, but it wasn't really expressed. It was kind of a background problem. It was like. It was like the weather, you know, it was in the air. And I knew that it caused my father great stress, and. And I knew that it was a problem. Right. But at the same time, I grew up, like, hella Catholic, and, you know, the poor were blessed. You know, it was almost like you want to be poor. Like, the poor, the good ones, you know, you're almost. It's almost like you're not good.

[Rima Krais]

Interesting.

[Steve Burns]

You're not good unless you're poor. You know, you. You can't. You can't even have all the heaven stuff if you're a rich person. If you're a rich person, it's like the worst thing you could be. I remember thinking that at the same time.

[Rima Krais]

That makes a lot of sense.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah.

[Rima Krais]

Why you feel the way you do today.

[Steve Burns]

And then when I was, you know, when I was in high school and when I first moved to New York, there was the punk rock pose of everything. Like the ethos of, you can't sell out. You know, you just can't sell out. Whatever you do, you gotta just keep your integrity, you know, and eat Chef Boyardee, bro. That's what this is, man.

[Rima Krais]

And, yeah, don't trust the institutions or government.

[Steve Burns]

And so I was always a little weirded out. I mean, when I first started doing kids tv, believe me, there was no money.

[Rima Krais]

Oh, really?

[Steve Burns]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. No, no, we weren't. You know, that I kind of. I kind of like that. I mean, we were doing that show for love for the first time, many seasons. You know, eventually it got. It got way better. It got fair, you know, but at first, you know, there wasn't. But I was worried about money in that sense because I was like, aren't I worth more money to the show? Am I being undervalued? What is my value? Do people not understand my value? I'm deeply offended by this. Yeah. I was a kid. I was like 22 or something, so I was already developing these kind of weird valuations based on the amount of money I was receiving or had or could tell people I had or could point to. And then now that I'm older, I do have a parent in assisted living, you know, and, and, and for the first time in my life, I worry about money. I think about it all the time, like, is there going to be enough money for this? Is there going to be enough money for that? Is there going to be enough money for this? Because again, it's a different valuation of money. At this stage in my life. I'm like, I just want to make sure there's enough to care for this thing, you know, so it really does morph. And like, like you said, it's a placeholder, right? It's a placeholder. It's a placeholder, you know, for, for your moral standing in the world. In the eyes of God. It is a placeholder, is a placeholder for how punk rock you actually are. It is a placeholder for the degree to which a cable network values your contribution. And it's a placeholder for how well you're caring for your parent. You know, it can be all of these things, you know.

[Rima Krais]

Right. It's a placeholder. It's a mirror, you know, it reflects back, I think, the deeper things that are important to us. Our values, our insecurities, family histories. And, and that's why I think, you know, oftentimes when part of the reason why we call it the, the show this is uncomfortable is because you folks are often talking in different languages when they're talking about money, right? They're not really. Like one person might be speaking a language of protection and fear and the other person speaking a language of like, pragmatism or avoidance. I think until you like really translate what money or whatever, what it means to each person, then, then oftentimes you're just talking past each other and intimate and interpersonal relationships. And that's why I think sometimes those conflicts spiral because you can't resolve them by like swapping spreadsheets because what's at stake isn't math. It's like often meaning, right?

[Steve Burns]

Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah.

[Rima Krais]

I have so many questions going through my head because now I'm curious about your background a little bit more. But I guess the point is that you're supposed to ask me questions.

[Steve Burns]

I am the podcast host today.

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[Steve Burns]

What I'm learning in talking to you and talking to a few other people about money is that there's an emotional literacy that people need to have around, particularly this subject, you know, which is maybe a little counterintuitive, but I've always wondered this, you know, like, am I, do I have to know the jargon? Like, I don't know, I don't understand what people are talking about when they talk about specific money thing. And to me, to me that always feels, I suspect that it's by design. You know, they make money really hard to know. They make it inscrutable and opaque and weird so that, so that only the people who know about it can have the money because the money worshipers are evil people and they want all of it and they want to keep it all. I feel like the money averse people and I, I developed these connections, conspiracies around it and like, and then I feel the shame because like, well, I don't get it. I don't understand the difference between my SEP and my whatever and I really don't understand the market and I really don't get what crypto is. And, and should we. I'm not asking you to like explain money to me so much as. Right as. Do you have a sense of like what a healthy level of financial literacy is on a specific level?

[Rima Krais]

That's a good question. I do think, going back to the first thing that you said that emotional literacy is very important because emotional literacy, I do think it can be a form of financial literacy. Right? Like, yeah, I'm not a psychologist, but talking with so many people over the years, I do see how our emotions drive our financial behavior. So it's like whether we're impulse buying or avoiding our bank account because we don't like what it might say about us. Those aren't rational choices, they're emotional ones. We're making decisions based on fear and loss aversion and short term relief. Right? So I do think to some degree the practical side of financial literacy, like budgeting, saving, investing only works if it's built on emotional awareness. I remember there was a period a few years ago where I Was like, I felt very similar to you. And I still do to some degree where I'm like, like, I don't know all these things. Should I know the latest about crypto and this and that? And then I had to work through those emotions. And eventually I sat down with myself and I was like, okay, Dima, just put it on your calendar. Just like, literally once a week, just say like, 15 minutes. Start small. Watch a YouTube video. Like, read a book, Figure out how to invest, figure out how to budget. And. And I do think I was just talking with a professor the other day about this because I was doing this episode about how in my early 20s, I had these retirement accounts that I didn't really like. I never really tracked them. I didn't, like, I wasn't on top of it. They just kind of existed.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah.

[Rima Krais]

And now that I'm 35, I'm like, oh, I should actually figure out what the hell happened to those accounts. See how much money I have. Roll them over.

[Steve Burns]

Yes.

[Rima Krais]

And it felt like such a annoying and burdensome task that I kept putting off. And I got on the phone with this with a woman named Katie Milkman. She's a psychologist, behavioral psychologist. And I was like, am I like, what's wrong with me? Like, why is it so hard for me to do this very simple financial task that I know will help me?

[Steve Burns]

Yeah, yeah.

[Rima Krais]

And she was like, you know, and this actually made me feel better. She. She was like, our brains aren't wired to do these things. Like, we really have to, like, fool ourselves to some extent in order to do the things we know we should do but don't want to do. And so the strategies that work are often about, like, making change feel easier and rewarding at the moment. And so she was like, you know, pair something you should do with something you want to do. This is like having one on one stuff. But it's. It works, right? It works. And so, like, you know, she's like, do it with a friend or reward yourself. Or she was even like, you can create a punishment, which I'm still thinking about till this day. She was talking about this website where you can sign up. I mean, I'm sure there are plenty of these kinds of companies where you sign up and you say you put a goal, you say you're going to do it by this date, and you give it your credit card information, and if you don't do it, it'll donate a portion of your money to, like, a cause.

[Steve Burns]

Brilliant.

[Rima Krais]

It's brutal. Yeah. To a cause that you're against.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah, exactly. That's. Oh my God. Really?

[Rima Krais]

Yeah. That's so putative.

[Steve Burns]

That would work on you.

[Rima Krais]

So you're like, yeah, it would work on me too.

[Steve Burns]

What is that called?

[Rima Krais]

I think it was called Stick. The one website she told me about, like S T I C K. That is so smart.

[Steve Burns]

That's gonna work on me. So what do you think about this? I talk to people, I have a lot of friends who are millennials, and there's sort of this expectation that there's this ginormous wealth transfer that is nigh right. You hear about it. This like, I don't know, 50, 70 million billion dollar wealth transfer that's about to happen, or trillion dollar wealth transfer that's about to happen. But then I read that most of it is not going to go to the people who are shackled with insane debt and that it's all hype. What is your sense of that? What are you hearing?

[Rima Krais]

Yeah, I think that's right. I think, because there is, I think, this interesting tension. I was just reading the other day, there was this article about how overall millennials net worth actually exceeds expectations when you compare it to previous generations at similar ages, which on the face of it, you're like, oh, great, we're doing great. But there is a significant gap, gap, as you're saying, between like, those who are well off and those who aren't. The people who are struggling to build wealth are the people who have large student debt payments, who are burdened with extraordinary health care costs, the ones who can't afford to buy a house. And so, yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm in that category, to be honest. I'm renting. I'm. I don't know if I'll be able to afford childcare when hopefully I have a kid one day. I mean, Hope, I. I don't. I just don't know what that'll look like. Right. In terms of reorganizing my finances. And so I think there is a lot of anxiety. There's a lot of generational angst, and I think a lot of it has to do with, or some of it has to do with the gap between, I think, what so many of us were promised. Right. Versus what we actually got. I do think so many of us came of age during the Great Recession and, you know, graduated into a labor market where wages had been stagnant. On top of that, you know, like all the, all the things you hear. Right. And so, you know, going through these historic moments has conditioned at least I'm speaking for myself to be extra wary that nothing is guaranteed, so you better hold on to what you have.

[Steve Burns]

You know, I feel like, particularly millennials were sold the concept of debt as. As a ticket. You know, it's the ticket to the club. You know, it's the ticket to. To school, to adulthood, to a house, you know, freedom, potentially a family. But then you don't get into the club, but you do have. You do have just, like, knocking on the door, the debt. And I feel for that, you know, because that sucks, right? Because that is essentially a corruption of the American dream as I understood it. I have a really good friend the other day who said the new American dream is being hit by a city bus and then hoping that you don't die, but you don't die, but you can sue.

[Rima Krais]

That's a huge windfall.

[Steve Burns]

That's right. It's like, that's the new American dream. And I'm like, that's funny and so sad.

[Rima Krais]

That's so dark.

[Steve Burns]

He's a dark guy. But. But, yeah, I was like, that's kind of right.

[Rima Krais]

I'd be lying if I said that thought. I didn't have a fleeting thought that sounded similar to that, where I'm like, well, maybe. Maybe I'll get a huge windfall later in life through some unfortunate.

[Steve Burns]

I mean, not really, but a series of unfortunate events.

[Rima Krais]

Not really. But I do think there is this, like, belief that I held on to, and I know so many of my friends also feel, which is that, like, I mean, it's like, I think this optimism bias that we have of, like, well, maybe something like it will change our circumstances and. Because, like, the current reality doesn't feel like it's going to get us to where we want to go and. Or. Or I just think a lot of us are also, like, quietly adjusting what we once considered the traditional markers of success. Right. It's not about the house and the two cars and the 2.5 kids anymore. It's about having maybe, like, sort of what I was saying earlier, like, the ability to travel or rent a really nice apartment or having maybe, like, freedom in your work life. Even though the American dream looms large, I don't think it reflects how so many of us are actually living that, you know, a lot of us are still relying, for example, our own family support well into adulthood. Or. Yeah, you know, we're not fitting the narratives, or maybe we're still living with our parents or whatever it might be. But I think it's also okay, like, it a Lot of these narratives are outdated or exclusionary. And, you know, don't take into consideration, like I was saying earlier, like, they weren't always designed with everyone in mind. Right. Because I do think financial advice assumes a baseline of privilege, and it can ignore the ways capitalism. Or caregiving responsibilities or. Yeah. Generational wealth, how that can shape what's possible.

[Steve Burns]

Tell me more about that, because that sounds true to me. Financial advice, financial literacy, the things that we assume are financial wisdom, assume a certain degree of privilege, or they. They assume that you've got a certain amount of money. Right. So all. All of the advice and wisdom that we get is like, this is what you do with your big chunk of money. Right. And there's not enough people saying, this is what you do to live with dignity with what you have. Right. There's not. There's not enough of that. Why do you think that is?

[Rima Krais]

I mean, I think, like so much of our curriculums and knowledge and so much for education, rather, was designed for a profile that is exclusionary. Right. For, like, the white male or the. For groups that they're not designed with. With groups that are marginalized in mind. Correct. And I also think, you know, what you just said sparked a memory that I have of talking with someone who I. There was this conversation I had many years ago with a woman who. Her brother died of an overdose. And when she was, like, a kid, he was, like, in his 20s. And this was like, a larger story, which I can get into if you're interested, but it was about how she was trying to find out where he'd been buried, because when her family. When he died, her family wasn't able to afford a burial. And so the local government took care of it anyway, so she described how her brother never really had a chance. Like, he was born into. You know, his struggle with addiction traced back to his turbulent childhood, to his mother's alcoholism, to the lack of support. And so she was. I remember she had this phrase where she was like, his fate felt determined, and it was like the ball of inequity was rolling long before he was born.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah. Oh, that's very well said.

[Rima Krais]

Yeah. That always stuck with me. And I do think, generally speaking, yeah, we. Like I said, financial advice assumes a baseline of privilege and without taking into consideration the fact that so many of us don't have the kind of generational wealth that others are able to lean on, even in, like, the smallest of ways. Right. I have friends who are able to afford the home because maybe their parents gave them that fifty thousand dollar down payment that they needed, or, you know, a portion of the down payment that they needed. Or like, I. It's just we are not all starting in the same place. We all have different responsibilities, different expectations from our families. You know, my parents growing up, they would give, like, a good portion of their income every month to our family abroad. And that was just a given. Right. That was just, like, an obligation that they felt. It goes back to what I was saying, too, which is that, like, you really have to design your financial life based on what is important to you.

[Steve Burns]

Well, that goes back to the emotional literacy associated with money, which I'm seeing from talking to you is more and more important. I. I'm seeing that there really can't be financial literacy without an emotional literacy about money. You know, like, it really is foundational to that. And also how you were saying before about how your valuations. Valuations about what successes can change, evaluations about, or you. Or at least your relationship to the concept of value. It can change and does change.

[Rima Krais]

Yeah.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah. So what about. What about you? Like, can you talk about money with your friends? Like, is that. Is that. Are you better at that than most people or.

[Rima Krais]

You know, I think I've gotten better, for sure.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah.

[Rima Krais]

I bet you there are times where I'm like, oh, am I being a little too much? Because I don't hesitate as much to ask someone how much their rent is or how much they're making.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah.

[Rima Krais]

And so I'm sure I've made some people uncomfortable. I try to obviously pick up on social cues and not push people, but. But I, you know, I. I feel a lot less shame in terms of sharing details of my financial life. And so I've. Yeah, I've. It's. I, like, it's so cheesy, but I really do feel like talking with so many people. I'm like, oh, we're all the same. Yeah. Like, we're just, like, all so interconnected, and, like, we're all chasing and longing the same things. We all want to feel cared. We want to feel like we belong. And so, like, part of me, I'm not. I'm not focusing so much on the specific numbers I'm sharing with my friends or how whenever it comes up, I'm really just sharing the feeling behind that of, like, oh, I want to feel like I'm being paid what I'm worth in the workplace, or I really want to have enough money so that I can. If I afford childcare one day. Right. So I'm more focused on that. Part of the conversation than what those numbers might say about me. Right.

[Steve Burns]

I think that's the big old gift of listening, deep listening, which you're obviously very good at, is you start to see the same. You start to see, oh, I see you and me, and I see me and you. And that's where compassion starts, and that's where, you know, empathy begins in the whole. That's where all the good stuff happens. And you're obviously really, really good at that. I've heard you talk about, you know, just kind of anecdotally, something everybody can relate to. But that is so uncomfortable. And also illustrative is the bill, is the getting of the bill, the receiving of the bill for the shared food at the restaurant. That I think is kind of a little microcosm of how most people feel. It just brings everything to bear. Because one person might be like, I will pay. I want to show off and show that I will pay for the drinks. Another person's like, dude, if you ask me to split this bill, I'm gonna come over and kick you in the throat. Cause you had, like. You had nine appetizers and five glasses of wine, and I had French fries. And where is.

[Rima Krais]

Yeah, I'm not paying $70.

[Steve Burns]

I'm on that guy's team, by the way. But it just brings everything up. And one person might be, like. One person might be, like, really upset that they don't want to say that we shouldn't split the bill. And one person might be. Feel awkward about saying, I can cover it or whatever. And even just talking about that scenario, I'm like, that's gross.

[Rima Krais]

You know, so you're the person on the table who's like, I'm the person on the table? Yeah. We can figure it out later.

[Steve Burns]

Like, I'm either, like, offering to pay, but not to show off, but just be like, yeah, let's make this go home, right?

[Rima Krais]

Just to be like, let's get this problem right.

[Steve Burns]

Or. Or I'm like, whatever you think, man, we'll just split it. Whatever. Whatever's easiest. Whatever. Because this is how my personality works. Whatever will cause the least amount of stress for everyone.

[Rima Krais]

I feel the same way.

[Steve Burns]

I'm getting that. Yeah. I think the last thing I'd like to kind of COVID is, you know, you have talked to a lot of diverse people. You've talked to a lot of people about this.

[Sarah Amos]

This.

[Steve Burns]

This fluctuating, stand in for our own self worth. And I'm wondering how that's different across cultures, how. How you've found that to be different across gender, across, across financial station that you're born into. Like, what are some of the big differences you've seen?

[Rima Krais]

That's a, that's a hard question because it's, I do think so much of it is unique, but. Oh man. I mean, it's, I'm like scanning through all the different stories and all the different people I've talked to over the years and I really feel like so much of it is individual because I'm constantly surprised by how people are interpreting their financial story. You know, I've talked with people who were born into a lot of generational wealth and want nothing to do with the money. They're disgusting it and they're actively giving it away. Yeah, I talked with this one woman who got into fights, these explosive fights with her dad about it because he was like, no, this is like you're basically rejecting our family history by rejecting this money. This is, it's, it's more than just money. And she was like, no, this is, it ties back to, you know, slavery and oil and I don't want anything to do with this money.

[Steve Burns]

That's interesting.

[Rima Krais]

But then I've, yeah, but then I've talked with other people who've, you know, like her dad have a lot of pride in how. In their family name and, or they feel a lot of shame. Like they're pride, they're prideful about it, but they don't want to necessarily talk about it with their friends in terms of, you know, not having to, not being burdened with student debt. And so they find them, they lie about it. Right. And so it's, I want to say that there are these like big differences I've noticed across gender and I mean gender is a big one. Obviously. I have noticed generally speaking, women, especially in the workplace are obviously less likely to ask for what they're worth and, but there are always very surprising ways that people respond. Like, I, I've talked with a lot of people come from low income backgrounds and that's translated into a lot of anxiety in adulthood. But then I've talked with other people and they have like a more avoidant tendency with it. And so it really reflects their, the other individual experiences.

[Steve Burns]

That's really interesting to me that, you know, you, you have interviewed so many people from so many different backgrounds and, and yet each of the stories, each, each person's relationship to money is their own and we all have our own.

[Rima Krais]

So arbitrary.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting.

[Rima Krais]

Yeah, it can, it can be so, you know, I talked with this one woman who was getting into these big fights with her wife because they wanted to start a family, and she was like, no, we can't start a family until we are making $150,000 as a baseline. And she was like, what. Where did that money. Where did that number come from? And it was just like a number that she, you know, that she kind of, like, held on to when she was, like, 10 years old or something like that and just never let it go.

[Steve Burns]

Yep.

[Rima Krais]

And so it can be so irrational. But she was like, no, that was the number I associated with, like, you know, being well off when I was younger. And that's what we need. And even though we're only making 110 or 105. No, we need to make 115.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah.

[Rima Krais]

And. Yeah. It was just so irrational.

[Steve Burns]

I do.

[Rima Krais]

Yeah, you do. In that sense.

[Steve Burns]

I've always. In my life, I've had these goal posts. It's like, okay, you're not safe. Wow. I'm just realizing right now, that is the word. That is the word for me. Safe safety. Right. Is mom safe? Is this safe? Am I going to be like, are people safe? That's a word for me. Financial safety is a thing. But I've always associated numbers with that, you know? Right. And I wonder where that comes from.

[Rima Krais]

You know, I know it could be. So probably an irrational number. Yeah. And I think, going back to what I was saying, that's why it is probably, like, really important to be like, okay, what. What do I. What number do I actually need to achieve based on, like, what it is that I want in life?

[Steve Burns]

Yeah.

[Rima Krais]

As opposed to just chasing endlessly towards a number. But that's real. You know, I. I think about this, too, all the time, where I'm like, okay, what is the number? What is the moment that I'm gonna feel safe? And I hear that a lot from people that I talk to and something I always go back to. And it sounds depressing on the face of it, but it's. It can also be comforting. Do you know who Pema Chedron is?

[Steve Burns]

Oh, my gosh.

[Rima Krais]

She's like an American Buddhist.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah, Pima.

[Rima Krais]

Really?

[Steve Burns]

She saved my life. Yeah. When Things Fall apart, ladies and gentlemen, if you've.

[Rima Krais]

When Things Fall Apart. Yes.

[Steve Burns]

That is a book.

[Rima Krais]

I was just. Oh. You know, I was like, there's a likelihood that Steve will resonate with this. I feel like we're on the same wavelength.

[Steve Burns]

That book changed my life. That's legit, by the way.

[Rima Krais]

No, same. Honestly, it really left an imprint on Me. And I was like, rereading it recently, and so that's why it's probably in my head right now. But there was, like, this sentiment that she shared because I was also reading it. It sounds like you were reading it during a tough moment in your life.

[Steve Burns]

We all do, right?

[Rima Krais]

Yeah, we all do. Right. That's why you pick it up. It's called When Things Fall Apart. So I was reading it during a tough moment when I was grieving. And there was this idea in there about how life is groundless, and that's not necessarily a problem. We're all craving and striving for certainty and safety and control. And she was like, you know, groundlessness is. That's actually the natural state of things. And when we stop resisting that, when we stop resisting them, permanence, then life becomes more workable, essentially. And that's something I think about a lot. How, like, some of the deepest illusions we have are that we can find solid ground. That if we plan hard enough, that if we save enough, if we control every variable, then maybe we'll hold on to our jobs. Maybe the relationships won't look different. Maybe, you know, we'll have. We'll have all the things, but everything is always shifting, right? Like our relationships, our job, our health, the economy. And so, yeah, I think that groundlessness isn't. Like I was saying earlier, it's not the personal failure, it's just. It's the reality. And I think something I try to hold on to is that.

[Sarah Amos]

We.

[Rima Krais]

We cling on to certainty like it's possible. But if we can accept that groundlessness is the baseline, then life becomes. Feels a little bit more manageable. And of course, there are other, you know.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You totally. You totally got that book.

[Rima Krais]

Yeah, I got it. I mean, I. I also, yeah. Underlined and wrote down a lot of things and it really.

[Steve Burns]

I wish. I wish I was upstairs because my copy of that book, by the way, was called When Things Fall Apart by P. Michelle Ron. And it's. Yeah, that's a good one. And obviously, I mean, she's. She's Buddhist. And so the impermanence and all that is baked in. But it's also about, you know, a lot of that is about not great. Like you're talking about. Nothing is fixed, nothing is permanent. And that relates, right. That relates very directly to money and the concept of money. The concept of attaining and getting and clinging to this idea and amassing something for the future, for. For a safety in the future which is still not insured, you know, and.

[Rima Krais]

That doesn't mean giving up on our goals or structure, but I think it just means, like, not holding on to them so tightly and not pinning your sense of security or your self worth on a fixed outcome on a job title or on a salary or a relationship. Because, you know, you build security in your own capacity, I think, to adapt.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah.

[Rima Krais]

Yeah, dude, this is making me feel like I would need you. I need to have you on my show because I have so many questions.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah, I would be happy. I would be happy to be on your show, Rema. You're such a good hang.

[Rima Krais]

That'd be amazing.

[Steve Burns]

You're so cool and. All right. I think we've talked about everything I wanted to talk about, but you're amazing and you're wonderful.

[Rima Krais]

This was so fun.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah. I'm gonna. I'm gonna read. I'm gonna read Pima Chodron tonight. And.

[Rima Krais]

Yeah.

[Steve Burns]

Thank you for coming and thank you for.

[Rima Krais]

Thank you for having me.

[Steve Burns]

I thought this was going to be about financial literacy. Literacy, but I think it was about emotional literacy, and that's way cooler. So thank you so much. Thank you, Rima, Chris. All right, take care. Bye.

[Rima Krais]

Appreciate it. Bye.

[Steve Burns]

Well, that was great. Rema's great. Love, Rema. Okay, so I wrote just a few things down real, real quick. The first thing I wrote down is that money is a tool, right? Yeah. It's essentially neutral. It is a means to an end, not the thing itself. And where we kind of get into trouble is when we assign all these other things to it. Which brings me to the second thing. Money is a stand in, right? Money is a stand in for value. How we value our lives, how we value our experiences, our relationships, how we value ourselves. And the last thing I wrote is that there really can't be financial literacy without accompanying emotional literacy. Which makes sense because no matter what it is we're trying to do with money, our relationship to it is fundamentally emotional. Right. At least. I don't know. At least that's how it feels to me. What do you think?

[Rima Krais]

Yeah.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah. Yeah. Yes. You know what? Let's go outside. I think it stopped raining. It did. Okay, so we ask money to do a lot, right? We ask it to give us security, identity, safety, even permanence. As if it's gonna somehow save us from all that groundlessness, us, that Remo was talking about. But I think she's right. I think life is always changing, like the weather. What would we value if we stopped asking money to do the job of making us whole? What do you think? Listen, I'm so glad you came by today. I love doing this. This is great. It really is. Thank you for being here. You look great. Check out the mist on that mountain.

[Rima Krais]

It.

[Steve Burns]

Alive with Steve Burns is a Lemonade Media original. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now's the perfect time. You can listen to the show completely ad free, plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content from me as I reflect on this episode. Just press subscribe on Apple podcasts, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app, or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. That's lemonadapremium.com Alive is hosted by me, Steve Burns, and produced by Jeremy Slutskin. Our editor is Christopher Champion Morgan. Our associate producer is Akshaz Tharabailu, audio engineering by James Sparber. Lemonada's SVP of weekly programming is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Jessica Cordova Kramer, Stephanie Whittles, Wax and me. We'll see you next week. And you look great, by the way.

[Sarah Amos]

Famous Amos. It's a name that is synonymous with chocolate chip cookies. He's also my dad.

[Steve Burns]

I'm in a supermarket. I'm in convenience stores.

[Rima Krais]

I'm in department stores.

[Steve Burns]

That's what makes Amos famous.

[Sarah Amos]

Wally Famous Amos. He opened the first ever chocolate chip cookie store 50 years ago. When he passed away last year, I set out to understand how he became one of the most famous Black men in America.

[Steve Burns]

I remember dad on the car cover of Time magazine. The headline was the Hot New Rich.

[Sarah Amos]

While also leaving his life and our family in chaos. What did you think when I first told you I was thinking of doing a podcast about our family?

[Steve Burns]

How much collateral damage is it going to cause?

[Sarah Amos]

From Vanity Fair, I'm Sarah Amos and this is Tough Cookie, the Wally Famous Amos Story, a vanity available wherever you get your podcasts. You know when you're just going about your busy day and a voice asks you something like, why do people have crushes? Or do dogs know their dogs? The Brainzon podcast is here to help. Every episode answers tough questions with funny skits, cool facts and more. It's a science show for kids of all ages. Whether you grew up with jfk, mtv, TLC or tmz, Brainson is for you.

[Rima Krais]

Listening may induce uncontrollable laughter and turn backseat squabbles into harmonious car trips. Find Brainson wherever you get your podcasts.