The Masculinity Crisis: Why Men Are Struggling and What Masculinity Should Mean Now with Richard Reeves

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Alive with Steve Burns

Episode: The Masculinity Crisis: Why Men Are Struggling and What Masculinity Should Mean Now
Guest: Richard Reeves
Date: January 21, 2026
Host: Steve Burns (Lemonada Media)

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Overview

This episode of Alive with Steve Burns dives deep into the contemporary "crisis" of masculinity with guest Richard Reeves, the renowned social scientist, author of Of Boys and Men, and director of the American Institute for Boys and Men. Together, Steve and Richard explore how the definition and expectations of masculinity are in unprecedented flux—shaped by societal, economic, and cultural change, as well as intense online debate. The discussion moves beyond stereotypes, focusing instead on the relational and contributory nature of masculinity, the evolving roles for men, and the dangers of both reactionary and deficit-based narratives.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Does It Mean to Be a Man? (00:33—06:34)

• Complexity of Masculinity:
  Steve opens with frustration over media and manosphere claims that masculinity is all about "strength and dominance… and to never, ever be wrong." He challenges this as "tragically inadequate."

  “Strength has to be about more than that. Yoda was not able to lift the X wing because he was yoked. He was tapped into something that was more than muscles.” — Steve (01:58)

• Relational Definition:
  Richard argues masculinity has always been in flux, lacking the clear historical role that femininity often carried. He defines mature masculinity as being “a net contributor to the group—a provider in the broadest sense.”

  “To be masculine is to be giving more than you get… Overall, you’re a net contributor to the group and to the tribe. I think that’s at the heart of what masculinity is about.” — Richard (05:19)

2. Relational vs. Lone Ranger Masculinity (06:34—08:17)

• Masculinity through Relationships:
  Richard introduces “relational masculinity”—being a dad, coach, neighbor—contrasted with “lone ranger masculinity”:

  “I think the least masculine thing to do is to go off on your own.” — Richard (08:17)

• Changing Context:
  The conversation underscores how women’s liberation and economic independence have destabilized old scripts for masculinity, heightening uncertainty for men.

3. Masculinity Vertigo and Conflicted Messaging (08:27—11:05)

• Masculinity Vertigo:
  Richard cites academic John de la Volpe's idea of “masculinity vertigo,” describing young men bombarded with contradictory social cues—told alternately to “man up” or to be less masculine.

  “You’re getting bombarded with completely different messages depending on which day of the week it is.” — Richard (08:51)

• Desire for Meaningful Masculinity:
  Surveys show two-thirds of young men want to “be more masculine”—but there’s no consensus on what that actually means.

4. Economic and Role Shifts—Loss of Clarity (11:05—15:59)

• Women's Economic Gains, Eroded Roles:
  With women now earning more and being primary earners in 40% of US households (up from 10% in the ‘70s), the “provider” role for men is no longer clear.

  “Men could depend on the dependency of women in order to define their role… So the mere fact that women and children were economically dependent on us made our role pretty crystal clear.” — Richard (14:13)

• Social Nostalgia and Clarity:
  The simplicity and clarity of the old traditional script are attractive in times of uncertainty, despite being “brutally unfair” and impractical to resurrect.

5. Online Reactionary Masculinity & the Pathologization Problem (18:45—24:19)

• Steve’s Frustration with ‘Alpha’ Ideals:
  Steve expresses anger over a narrow, dominance-focused brand of masculinity being sold online.

• Reactionary vs. Progressive Extremes:
  Richard suggests both sides are to blame:

  • Progressives have focused too much on men as “the problem,” coining terms like “toxic masculinity.”
  • Reactionaries offer a clear (if outdated) role, appealing to those alienated by pathologizing rhetoric.

  “Too many people… have refused to accept that men might have problems because they are so convinced that men are the problem… The progressive left invented the term toxic masculinity in 2016.” — Richard (19:49)

• Identity Threat and Backlash:

  “If you threaten someone’s identity… the most natural human response is to lean harder into it.” — Richard (22:20)

• Reassurance:
  Most boys and young men aren’t falling for regressive definitions—they remain broadly committed to gender equality and less violent/antisocial.

  “There is no strong evidence of a turn towards more reactionary views on gender among the overwhelming majority of boys and young men.” — Richard (20:47)

6. The Real Crises: Education, Mental Health, Purpose (27:11—33:10)

• Educational Underachievement:
  Boys are consistently behind girls in key educational metrics; fewer men attend college now compared to the past.
• Economic Stagnation:
  Male wages (sans college degree) have been stagnant since 1979; most American men today earn no more (or less) than their fathers.
• Mental Health and Social Withdrawal:
  Alarming increases in male suicide and drug overdose deaths:

  “Since 2000…the increase means the loss of an additional 400,000 men. 400,000 is exactly the number of men the U.S. lost in World War II.” — Richard (30:32)

7. Male Isolation, The Manosphere, and the Hikikomori (33:10—37:38)

• Extreme Retreat:
  Discussion of "hikikomori" (Japanese men retreating completely from society), held up as a warning for what extreme alienation looks like.

  “There are a lot of young men who… are spending a lot more time on their own…15% of men under [a certain age] say they don’t have a single close friend.” — Richard (35:57)

• Changing Priorities—Family and Commitment:
  Contrary to stereotypes, more men than women now say marriage and family are centrally important.

  “Men now are more likely than women to say that getting married and having a family is more important. Is important.” — Richard (37:39)

8. Towards an Expanded Masculinity (39:56—44:00)

• Adding, Not Replacing:
  Steve advocates for adding virtues—like empathy and compassion—to masculinity, not erasing its traditional qualities.

  “Strongest I’ve ever felt was not when I was dominating something, it was when I was using my strength to help someone else. Biggest risk I ever took was being vulnerable. And bravest thing I ever did was ask for help.” — Steve (47:10)

• Learning from the Women’s Movement:
  Richard suggests men can expand masculine scripts without discarding them—just as women claimed more diverse roles while keeping aspects of femininity.

  “We don’t need to abandon masculinity or embrace androgyny. We need to expand masculinity and apply it in a modern context.” — Richard (42:36)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “To be masculine is to be giving more than you get…it is to be contributing more to the tribe than you’re taking out of it.” — Richard Reeves (05:19)
• “I think the least masculine thing to do is to go off on your own.” — Richard Reeves (08:17)
• “Masculinity vertigo… you’re getting bombarded with completely different contrasting messages depending on which day of the week it is or which particular algorithm is kind of following you…” — Richard Reeves (08:51)
• “Too many people… have refused to accept that men might have problems because they are so convinced that men are the problem.” — Richard Reeves (19:49)
• “If you threaten someone’s identity…the most natural human response is to lean harder into it.” — Richard Reeves (22:20)
• “Since 2000…the increase [in overdose deaths] means the loss of an additional 400,000 men… 400,000 is exactly the number of men the U.S. lost in World War II.” — Richard Reeves (30:32)
• “Men now are more likely than women to say that getting married and having a family is more important. Is important.” — Richard Reeves (37:39)
• “We don’t need to abandon masculinity or embrace androgyny. We need to expand masculinity and apply it in a modern context.” — Richard Reeves (42:36)
• “Strongest I’ve ever felt was not when I was dominating something, it was when I was using my strength to help someone else. Biggest risk I ever took was being vulnerable. And bravest thing I ever did was ask for help.” — Steve Burns (47:10)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:33 – What does it mean to be a man?
• 05:03 – Best definition of masculinity; net provider concept
• 08:27 – Masculinity vertigo and the changing definition
• 13:34 – Dramatic shift in women's wages and breadwinning
• 19:48 – Pathologizing masculinity, “toxic masculinity” as a term
• 22:20 – Identity threat feedback loops and response
• 27:11 – Real challenges: education, mental health, economy
• 33:10 – Isolation and withdrawal: Hikikomori and friendship crisis
• 37:39 – Men’s increasing desire for family and commitment
• 39:56 – Rethinking masculinity: Empathy, service, and expansion
• 42:36 – Learning from the women’s movement: expand, don’t erase
• 47:10 – Steve’s lived experience of masculine strength and vulnerability

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Tone and Final Thoughts

The episode maintains a mix of humor, thoughtful skepticism, candor, and hope. Steve and Richard are both wary of online culture wars and nostalgic or reactionary solutions. Their aim is not to “fix” masculinity by constricting or pathologizing it, but to invite listeners (especially men) to see strength as relational and expansive—capable of growth, and inclusive of care, vulnerability, and new kinds of service.

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Takeaway

Masculinity, like all cultural identities, has never been static and shouldn’t be defined by a single, regressive script—or by fear and confusion. Its future likely rests on finding honest, expansive, and relational ways for men to contribute and to be needed, not just as providers, but as whole, caring human beings.

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Transcript

[Richard Reeves]

Lemonade. Most young men are not falling for the reactionary bullshit. They are absolutely not. There is no strong evidence of a turn towards more reactionary views on gender among the overwhelming majority of boys and young men.

[Steve Burns]

Hey.

[Richard Reeves]

Hi.

[Steve Burns]

Great to see you. Come on in. Welcome to Alive. Okay, so in your opinion, what does it mean to be a man? Mm.

[Richard Reeves]

Mm, mm. Right?

[Steve Burns]

Is it. Is it just a question purely of biology? Is it about more? Is it about providing, protecting? Chopping down a tree? Making a house? Rebuilding a carburetor? Making a cup of tea for your friend?

[Richard Reeves]

Want tea?

[Steve Burns]

Because as a man, I think it's actually really complex. But I keep hearing in the media and especially online in this thing called the manosphere, that it's actually pretty simple, that it's really just about strength and dominance and the ability to choke you out and kick your ass and to never, ever be wrong. And I gotta say, that pisses me off because it's just so tragically inadequate.

[Richard Reeves]

Right.

[Steve Burns]

Strength has to be about something else. Real strength. Strength has to be about more than that. Yoda was not able to lift the X wing because he was yoked. He was tapped into something that was more than muscles. And so, on one hand, here you go. Keep hearing this definition of masculinity that's just about being tough. And on the other hand, I keep hearing that there is a crisis of masculinity and all these warnings that we might somehow at the end of men. And that's got me wondering, if this current definition of masculinity is supposed to be so tough, why does it also seem so fragile?

[Richard Reeves]

You know?

[Steve Burns]

What do you think?

[Richard Reeves]

Hmm.

[Steve Burns]

Interesting.

[Richard Reeves]

Okay.

[Steve Burns]

All right, let's go. Okay. Today our guest is Richard Reeves, who is a social scientist and basically, I think, probably the most thoughtful explainer of what's been happening with boys and men. Right now. Richard runs the American Institute for Boys and Men, and his book of boys and men has become kind of a modern field guide, in a way, for understanding why so many men are struggling. But what I love about it is it's not like in a hand wringing sort of this is the end of men sort of way. It's very sort of clear, compassionate, data driven. Richard grew up in the uk, studied at Oxford, advised the British government. No big deal. Ran think tanks, and now write some researchers in the U.S. what I like about him is that he talks about masculinity clearly, but without all the nostalgia and. And without all the panic. Like, he's not. He's not trying to bring us back to the 50s or anything. And he's not trying to shame anyone. Oh, wait, he's here. He's here. Hey, Richard. How you doing?

[Richard Reeves]

Hey, it's good to see you. How are you? Yeah, likewise.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah. I really enjoyed your book. I have to say, I thought it was really pretty. Pretty much an amazing read. So thanks for writing it. If it's okay with you, we should just jump right on in.

[Richard Reeves]

Yeah, that would be great. I'm excited.

[Steve Burns]

So we're talking today about masculinity and what that currently means. Right. Because it is my sense that the definition of this word has been very much in flux, especially of late. So what's your best definition of masculinity?

[Richard Reeves]

Well, I will say it's always in flux.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah.

[Richard Reeves]

Right. So one thing we have to say first of all is it's always being defined and redefined over time. Even more than, like, femininity, I think, because, like, women have such a kind of historically clearer role. Right. What makes what. What turns a girl into a woman is just more obvious reproductively, like, across history. Whereas we've had to sort of. We have. We always have to define and redefine masculinity, especially mature masculinity. And the way the best definition that I've really come across, I think still works is that to be masculine is to be giving more than you get. It is to be contributing more to the tribe than you're taking out of it. And there's like a moment where there's like a rite of passage. So when do you become like a man? Right. Because you think of masculinity. Supposed. So I guess I might be answering because of what makes a man, but assume that they're related. Is that being masculine is actually to be a provider in the broader sense of that term. Right. That you're just giving more to the tribe and the community than you need for yourself. So that could you kill more meat than you need to eat. You provide more protection than just for yourself. You, whatever it is, more energy, more money. But more, you're a generator of a surplus of one kind or another. You're overall, you're a net contributor to the. To the group and to the tribe. I think that's at the heart of what masculinity is about.

[Steve Burns]

That's already a surprising definition. So, I mean, I. I also see the kind of utilitarian aspect of it, of the. The. The provider, the usefulness of it. Would you say that part of the masculine identity, from your view, is a response to societal needs?

[Richard Reeves]

Yeah. I think it's a usefulness to others. It's that. It is that provision of service to care, energy, meat, money, whatever it is. And so there's something like. There's this online movement of men just called men going their own way.

[Steve Burns]

Yes.

[Richard Reeves]

Yeah. That's the opposite of masculinity. The distinction I sometimes make when I think about this is between relational masculinity, in other words, defined through your relationships as a dad, as a husband, as a coach, as a neighbor, as a. As a guy on the street, you know, whatever. Right. But through the relationships you have with other people versus what you might think of as like a lone ranger. Masculinity. Right. Where masculinity is defined precisely by the absence of relationships, it's about being on your own. Right. It's the. It's the lonely heroic figure who doesn't need anybody and is not needed by anybody. He's just his own man. Right. And I think that's. I think that's the antithesis of masculinity as it's been defined in cultures over time. Right. If. If the men don't stick around and do the things that the tribe and the family and the community needs them to do, then the tribe and the community and the family won't do very well. And so the guy who goes off on his own is the anti male rather than the male. I think the least masculine thing to do is to go off on your own.

[Steve Burns]

Interesting. Do you think that that has changed though, over time? How do you think it's currently defined? Because to me, it feels like it's been changing.

[Richard Reeves]

Well, to me it feels like it's in a period of massive flux and contest. Right. I think that the, the result of this huge change in women's lives and the relationship between men and women, I think is essentially it's, it's just. It's create this massive uncertainty about where we're going in terms of masculinity. Because of the unsettling of the old ideas of what it meant to be a woman and femininity right away from housewife, mother, et cetera. I think that's had a kn. Consequence which is like, okay, what does that mean then for masculinity and for. And for men? And actually there's a really nice phrase from this academic, John de la Volpe, who says that a lot of men, especially young men, are suffering from masculinity vertigo. And what he means by that is that like you're getting bombarded with completely different contrasting messages depending on which day of the week it is or which particular algorithm is kind of following you right now, or you're following on Monday, you're being told, you know, the problem is that you're not masculine enough. Masculinity is about pumping, you know, being strong, taking protein, being assertive. Right, exactly right. That's right. And the problem, men are all soy boys and they're all soft and they need to kind of get harder again. And like, masculinity is about that. And then on Tuesday, they're being told that their problem is that they're too masculine and that they need to kind of cry more and get in touch with their feminine side and get rid of their toxicity and basically, you know, become more like women. Right. And then on Wednesday they're back to the other definition. So I think it's a period of real anxiety and uncertainty about what this means. So there's a group, a very progressive men's group called Ecumundo, who I work with a bit, and they did a survey, young men, men under 30, pretty recently, and they found that two thirds of men said that they wanted to become more masculine, but they didn't ask any follow up questions. They didn't, it wasn't in the survey to then say, but what do you mean by that? And so there's simultaneous, there's a, simultaneously a kind of desire on the part of men, especially young men, to be masculine, but a massive argument and disagreement about what that means. So I think we're living through a period of genuine anxiety and uncertainty. The mere fact we're having this conversation, I think, tells you that, like I, I, I'm in my mid-50s, I grew up in the UK, but in the US. But I think this question of masculinity is just in the air in a way that it just wasn't when I was growing up and in other periods. And I think that's because we are going through a period of massive cultural change, largely brought about by the successes, which I applaud, of the women's movement, which has raised the question of what it means to be masculine or even to be a man in a way that just wasn't asked 40 years ago.

[Steve Burns]

Right. Because if masculinity has historically been defined in relation to its utility, in its relation to its usefulness to provide for your immediate community or your larger community, and these tremendous gains that we see from women are changing essentially what it means to provide for that community, right now everyone's providing together, right? And so the core tenets of that masculine identity are being upended by all of these gains that are being made by.

[Richard Reeves]

Exactly.

[Steve Burns]

By a feminine identity.

[Richard Reeves]

Exactly. Yeah, that's exactly right. That makes sense. I mean, like my dad didn't have to think about it too much because like it was economic breadwinner. His role as a provider was defined pretty squarely by the paycheck. It's not that that's all he did, but that was like the foundational thing. But you know, the whole point of Gloria Steinem, the feminist scholar said, the feminist activist said that we have to make marriage a choice rather than a necessity for women, because actually marriage was an economic necessity for women for most of. Or pair bonding for most of human history until pretty recently. And give me. I promise not to bore you with too many statistics. One of the, One of the. One of the mottos of my new institute internal motto is not our public is keep it boring. It must be boring. And my son said, when I told him that, he said, well, you are definitely the man for that job, Dad.

[Steve Burns]

I don't think you're boring and I love statistics, so go on.

[Richard Reeves]

Well, in that case, you're unusual, but I will give a statistic because I think this is a good way to describe it. So if we take the typical man, the median man in the middle of the wage distribution, the male wage distribution. So think about a guy that's earning right in the middle of male wages. That's the median earner. Well, in 1979, only 13% of women earned more than the median man. Right. More than a typical man. So that would have. Only about 1 in 10 women would have been in the top half of the male wage distribution. It's just cleared 40%. No, 40% is not 50%. Right. It's not equality. Right. It's not that 50. If you had absolute equality, then 50% of women will be earning more than 50. 50% of men, the distributions would be the same. That's not happened. But 40% compared to 13%. And that's just since 1979. I was 10.

[Steve Burns]

40 years.

[Richard Reeves]

Yeah, in 1970. I mean, so like this unbelievable, unbelievably rapid change. And in fact, in 40% of US households now, women are the main breadwinner. Yeah, a lot. Some of those are single parents, but none of that again. And that was 10% in the 70s. And so these are dramatic economic changes. And that's exactly what the women's movement was fighting for, was to break the tie of dependency, economic dependency that women felt on men. But here's the thing men could depend on the dependency of women in order to define their role, right? In order to. They knew what they needed, we knew what we needed to do, right? So the mere fact that women and children were economically dependent on us made our role pretty crystal clear. Also meant that if we couldn't fulfill it, that was very, very troubling, right? But it also, it made for a nice clear. It was. It was pretty simple. And I think this is one of the reasons why some people now are almost hankering to go back. You see this trad wives movement online, and you obviously see some of these men online, etc. And I think that what they're really hungering for is clarity, clarity of purpose, clarity of role. I need a script. I need a clear script. Again, I do think we've done a much better job of telling men, young men especially, what they shouldn't do than what they should do. And so I think in this confusion and this vacuum, I understand why some people are saying, well, it used to be pretty simple for both men and women, right? They knew their roles, they knew what success looked like. They knew what their role was in relationship to each other. They knew what to expect of each other, right? She expected him to bring home the bacon, and he expected her to cook the bacon and raise the kids, and everyone kind of knew where they stood. There wasn't lots of discussion of roles. It was. It was nice and simple. It was also brutally unfair, and it meant we were leaving lots of female talent on the table. But it was nice and clear. And so I think in a period of massive lack of clarity and uncertainty and anxiety and confusion, a lot of people are reaching for our solutions in the past. And I understand that. But it's both wrong morally because of the massive gains, the women's movement are to be applauded and also just completely impractical, as a matter of fact. So we've got to go through the discomfort, find something better.

[Steve Burns]

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[Steve Burns]

You know, you talked about anxiety. I have anxiety about this because, man, I get pissed like this. This. It upsets me. Perhaps it's because I am, you know, a short hipster nerd who was bullied in junior high or whatever. But there is a brand of masculinity being pushed right now that I find tragic, that I find incredibly inadequate and just impractically incomplete as it relates to strength and dominance and all of these things. And it's being really celebrated on, on, especially online, but also in politics, also in culture. And I can see how that is a reaction to a traditional, to a traditional concept of masculine identity. But it does bother me. It really does.

[Richard Reeves]

Well, it should. It should bother you, but. So I'll make you Feel worse and then try and make you feel better. I make for worse by saying that, look, it's not just the reactionaries that you're referring to online, I think, who are to blame. I think that too many people on the progressive side have had just a deficit framed model of masculinity and of the role of men. Right. They. They have refused to accept that men might have problems because they are so convinced that men are the problem. We invent, we invented. I mean, they. The progressive left invented the term toxic masculinity in 2016. Didn't really exist outside of the margins of academia until 2016. Didn't exist. Yeah, as a term right now. It's all a lot of young men have heard. In fact, there's some evidence now that a bunch of young people don't know that the word masculinity can actually exist without the modifier topic.

[Steve Burns]

Seriously.

[Richard Reeves]

Because they've only ever heard yeah, because they've only ever heard the word masculinity with the word toxic in front of it. And so mansplaining and spreading the Me Too movement. Toxic masculinity. And I want to be clear. There's a lot of have lots of examples of really bad male behavior, of cruelty and abuse and assault and, and harassment and misuse of power that we should be continuing to hold to account as a huge supporter of the MeToo movement, for example, in terms of just changing that behavior. But to then frame that as being about toxic masculinity or to basically end up doing a lot of man blaming created the conditions in which I think a lot of boys and young men were like, well, look, I know what that lot think of me. They think I'm toxic and I suck and that men are hashtag, men are trash. Right. I know what think of me. Let's see what this lot think of me. And this lot over here, the more reactionary kind of types, they at least seem to kind of like me and they think I have a role and they think I have a purpose and they think the things I like aren't bad. And I think if you frame it that way, it's not surprising what we've seen. So that's to make you feel worse. It did to make you feel better. Okay, good. To make you feel better. Most young men, boys and young men, are not falling for the reactionary it, right? They are. Absolutely not. There is no strong evidence of a turn towards more reactionary views on gender. Among the overwhelming majority of boys and young men, they remain committed to gender Equality. A recent survey by Common Sense Media found that actually teenage boys more strongly associate themselves with feminine characteristics than masculine characteristics. The number of boys who've been in a fight in high school is halved in the last 10 years. Violent. Violent crime is. Yeah, violent crime is way down. But more importantly, a lot of boys and young men are just that they. They're aware of these other models. And of course, some are actually sold on it, but actually it's more just. They're reacting against this pathologization of masculinity. You said that this point about identity threat. Right. I think if you. If you actually do want to risk really having people lean into an identity, you do exactly what you said, which is threaten it. Right. If you threaten someone's identity as a man or a Jewish person or as a gay person or as a black person or whatever, and you say there's something wrong with that identity, then the most natural human response is to lean harder into it. Yeah. Is to say screw. Is to say screw you and make that and. And weight the identity more. More strongly. And so I think we've created some of those conditions. But the more I look at the surveys of and the work with actual, actual boys and young men, as opposed to people online, they're mostly not falling for that. They know. They know that they don't want a trad wife.

[Steve Burns]

Oh, that's great. That is great news. You did make me feel worse and then make me feel better. And that actually makes a lot of. Yes, and that actually does make a lot of sense. So let's see if I'm getting this right. We've understood sort of how there's. There's been a masculine identity that for lots of reasons is influx and is changing rapidly. Very rapidly. I was surprised by your statistic from 1979. So it's changing like exponentially on an exponential curve, which threatens a masculine identity, coupled with one side's really pathologizing all of masculinity as being very negative. And then the reaction to that from a place of threat is, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, I'll show you toxic.

[Richard Reeves]

Watch this. Right? Yeah. And so, yeah, that's a brilliant summary. That's a. That's a superb summary of what I think is.

[Steve Burns]

So you're getting almost like a feedback loop here, right. It becomes almost like a negative feedback loop here.

[Richard Reeves]

Very polarizing. And you also see that happening between young men and young women as well, where I think a lot of young men, that the people. The reactionary is that I'll use These labels for now, but some of these kind of more reaction. They're trying to persuade young men that their problem is young women. Yeah, right. And the young women suck. And they're all kind of super liberal and hate man. And you know, you know, kind of blue haired men man hating or whatever. Right. But also on the other side, there's been a long, you know, also a campaign to kind of persuade young women. But like, well, you know, you know, the problem, the problem is not the labor market or the housing market or you know, the cost of college. The problem is men, man explaining toxic masculinity, the patriarchy, etc. So there's this very unfortunate tendency I think for the polarization to try and end up with almost like a gender war among young people. And that's a tragic waste of lots of things. But not least it's a tragic waste of political energy. Because if basically young men and young women are spending most of their political energy hating on each other, that means less political energy being spent on improving our education system, our housing system, our college system. Making all those things, you know, wages. The boring stuff like that. It's, it's more exciting and attention grabbing online to have like the man versus Bear phenomenon. Did you, did you follow that? That was a meme about a year ago.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah, it's, it's, it's. Who would you rather meet her in the forest of a human man or an actual bear?

[Richard Reeves]

Yes. Right. Yeah. And it was bet and the bear and most of them said bear. And of course like there were lots of opportunities to comment on that, none of which I took because it's very definitely not boring enough. But it's the kind of thing that's really, I mean it captures something real about the anxiety of both sexes around gender right now. But I find it very frustrating that we can spend a lot of time on something like that and then not look at the fact that the chances of a boy going, a young man going from school to college now are lower than they were in the 60s. Yeah. And I think that's an actual real problem. Or the share of men who are able to buy a house. You're dropping on women. But, but these actual problems that people are fac policing these actual. They, they're boring. And so they get less attention than man versus Bear or do you hate the Barbie movie or hashtag men are trash or like or, or jokes about women. And so it's become a cultural divide much more than a real divide.

[Steve Burns]

You started to touch on men feeling unneeded and feeling untethered in this moment. And you started to mention some of the actual very real problems that men do have right now that often are under discussed or largely unseen.

[Richard Reeves]

Yeah, I mean it's. This is a lot of. This is problem stuff. So it's going to be quite negative. But I think it's important that we're honest about the problems that many, many men have. I've mentioned these huge education gaps. So boys and men are behind on every metric in education. In the average school district, boys are a year behind girls and key literacy tests, etc, huge gaps on college campuses. Just our education system's just not doing well by our boys and men. That flows into education later and to work. So if you look at men in their early 20s, men between the ages of 20 and 24, one in 10 of them aren't working or in college. Just we don't really know what they're doing. So that's a decimation of young men in terms of just we don't know what they're doing and huge mental health challenges for both young men and young women. But the way they play out for young men is different. It's more externalizing and in particular harm towards self. So the suicide rate among boys and young men is four times higher than it is among young women. And it's gone up. And in particular, the thing, one of the ones that really keeps me awake at night, which I didn't even know about, I wouldn't have this data when I wrote the book, but since 2010, all of the rise in suicide has been among young men. Really, it's young men. It's risen by almost. It's risen by almost a third, really among men under the age of 30, just since 2010. That's a very short period of time for a massive increase that is a public health crisis, the loss of life. So you're losing 40,000 men a year to suicide now in the US which is the same as the death toll from breast cancer among women. And because men's mental health challenges very often don't get diagnosed and men struggle to get help with them for all kinds of reasons we could talk about. You just see this huge death toll. And another one that really puts a pin in it for me is the loss of life from drug overdoses among men. So this is not suicide. This is from drug poisonings from overdoses, which is hard to classify. But we've seen this obviously the opioid crisis, which hit everybody hard, but hit men really hard over the last few decades. And so to put a data point on this, the increase in male deaths since 2000 from drugs, from opioids, largely fentanyl, et cetera, the increase means the loss of an additional 400,000 men since 2000. So that's just the increase. That's not the number, that's just the increase. So if you hadn't had any increase in the level, it would have been 400,000 more men that we would have with us today than we do. And 400,000 is exactly the number of men that we lost in World War II, that the U.S. lost in World War II. And so we've lost the equivalent of a world war in terms of male deaths since 2000 from the increase in deaths from drugs. That is, I mean, when you're at world war level loss of life, then I think it's fair to say that that is a public health crisis and that is just much, much higher among men than as among women. So my institute did that analysis. It hadn't been done before. And that's because it's not really anybody's job to just look at this data through that lens of saying, well, look, there are some differences here between men and women. Women have a, a huge number of issues which we could spend another hour talking about. But that doesn't mean that there aren't massive challenges for men. And the last one I'll give you is that male wages have gone up for men with a college degree, but they have not gone up at all for men without a college degree. So most American men don't really earn more today than most American men did in 1979. And so if you've had stagnant wages for what is now approaching half a century for the majority of men, I mean, obviously I'm talking not individual men might see pay rises, but as a group, men haven't, without a college degree, haven't seen any increase in wages for half a century. That's a very significant economic fact, of course. But I also think it's a hugely significant social fact. If you're not any better off than your father was, which is true for most of those men and many that are actually worse off than their fathers were, that is a very significant psychological blow. Back to your point about identity. I think a lot of us compare ourselves to our parents. And I think that for the men, for the many, many, many men who are actually economically and socially worse off than their fathers were, that is a hard blow.

[Steve Burns]

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[Richard Reeves]

Hello, I'm James Corden, and on my new show, this Life of Mine, I sit down each week with some of the most fascinating people on planet Earth. From Dr. Dre to Julianne Moore to David Beckham to Cynthia Erivo to Martin Scorsese to Jeremy Renner to Denzel Washington to Kim Kardashian. We talk about the people, places, possessions, music, and memories that made them who they are. These are intimate conversations full of stories that you've never heard before. This Life of Mine premieres October 21st. Wherever you get your podcast costs.

[Steve Burns]

We talk a lot on this podcast about find, you know, generational financial trauma and how emotional money is as it relates to identity. And if you compound that with something as intrinsic as masculine identity, you know how you are expected to show up and provide within your society, you can see how those are powerful motivators and you can see how someone would react strongly and as you said, push back. Right. As a way of fighting back. And I was hoping we could talk a little bit about some of these male reactions. We mentioned the manosphere. You talked a little about men going their own way in your book. One of the things that fascinated me was in Japan. I hope I'm saying it right, the hikomori. Is that how you say it? Yeah, that. That fascinated me. Can you talk a little bit about that?

[Richard Reeves]

Yeah. So these are men who've just retreated completely from society and they go into their bedrooms. There's typically young men still living at home and they don't work. It's almost like an anti capitalist thing, but it's also an anti women thing, an anti family. It's Basically just, I am just going to. It's like, it is like the cowboy but. But rather than going off into the range and being self reliant, he's actually just sitting in his bedroom and waiting for his mom to put a tray of food outside his room because sometimes they won't even let their family come in the room. And so this got bad enough that the Japanese government actually kind of created a whole policy around it to study it and try and work on it because you're just seeing particularly these young men kind of just withdrawing altog. And so and there's now some studies in Italy and in the US to just look at these men who have. It's a very, very small number to be clear as share but, but who've completely withdrawn. And the reason I mentioned those in the book and it's interesting is because I think that in some ways they're just the tip of the iceberg. Right. I think that there are a lot of, there are a lot of young men who maybe haven't completely withdrawn and are literally hikikomori on their own in the room, but they have, they are spending a lot more time on their own. Derek Thompson at the Atlantic has written a lot about this on a lot of time online. There's nothing wrong with gaming, there's nothing wrong with a lot of online activity to be clear. But it's. If it's instead of in real life, if it's replacing, if it's displacing those in real life relationships and those relational skills, then that's, that's potentially a kind of huge problem. So you see higher levels of male isolation than you do for women, young men in particular. Dan Cox at the American Enterprise Institute, he, He found that 15% of men under say that they don't have a single close friend.

[Steve Burns]

Wow.

[Richard Reeves]

And that was just 3% in 1990. It was very, very rare, vanishingly rare to say you didn't have a single close friend. But now it's 1 in 7 according to now Dan's work. Now there are, there are other surveys that find different trends to be clear, but I think this issue of being in a community, being in relationships is a problem and it's particularly a problem for men because if you believe in relational masculinity, as we discussed earlier, the absence of relationships is really, really tragic for men. They really flounder if they don't have that connection and if they don't feel that sense of, of being needed and of being connected. I don't know if you Saw this, but there was a poll, NBC poll, and it found that among Trump supporting men, having a family, having kids, wife and kids was number one on their priority list. And then for Harris, voting women, it was, I don't know, but like 13th or something. Really. That's right. And with every variation in between. Yes. Yeah. I don't know what the number actually was, but it was low down. The point was like. And there was this very interesting reaction which was like, oh, these guys, they just want a trad wife and they just want a traditional marriage. They just want to be the man of the house again. And look, there might be some of that, as we discussed a moment ago, but mostly what I think that was, was a lot of these guys, maybe it's not a terrible thing that they've realized that actually having a family, having someone who needs you isn't a bad thing. Maybe more men are realizing that they need to be needed. And if that's true, that is not a bad development. Right. That's a good development. And we should be very careful not to, not to immediately pour cold water on this desire of men to do that. In fact, men now are more likely than women to say that getting married and having a family is more important. Is important.

[Steve Burns]

I'm sorry, what?

[Richard Reeves]

And I think they're right about that.

[Steve Burns]

That, that's real. Now that seems like a huge inversion of everything that I think I understand.

[Richard Reeves]

Yep. Yeah, well, it's, it's counterintuitive because I think the, the, the, the stereotype is like, women are the ones who want to kind of get married and have kids and they might trap a man into it and he's like, you know, he wants to go off on his own and she, she has to find a way to lure him in because man's natural state is to be off, you know, and women's natural state is to have this good. So how do you, how do you get men into this domestic situation? That's the problem for women. Right. That's the stereotype type. Complete, completely untrue. It's actually men now who say that having a family, having is more important for them than women. Women feel more choices now about what they're going to do. Maybe I will be a common mom, maybe I won't. Still figuring it out. Maybe I will get married, maybe I won't. So women are feeling a much greater significance, sense of independence. And it's actually men who are saying, no, no, I, I, I need a family. And I think that the, the inversion and the counterintuitive nature of that is a good sign, because I think what it means is that men realize this. Men have not fallen for this trope of you don't need women, you don't need kids. Don't be burdened with all that. Be the solitary warrior, the cowboy, or the modern equivalent, the guy in the bar in Manhattan dating a sequence of women with his Porsches or whatever you find online. Don't you want to be that guy? And the overwhelming answer for most men is, hell, no. Thank you very much. I would like to find someone to love and kids to raise and a home to build. Wow.

[Steve Burns]

I did not know that. You know, I think it's because I'm older and most of my friends have already made those decisions, so I wasn't aware of that. That is a very surprising bit of information there.

[Richard Reeves]

Yeah, it's about 10. It's about 10. It's about a 10 percentage point difference between the pew in the share of men who say that's the myth. And I like it because. Because I do think there are all these myths around, and some of them are quite anti men myths in a way that are propagated on. On both sides about, like, you know, men don't want to settle down, Men don't want to. Men don't want to commit all that stuff. And all of the evidence says that's just not true. Men do want to commit. Men do want to live for somebody else, and that's a wonderful thing.

[Steve Burns]

I think maybe it's for me, you know, if. If masculinity does need a new identity, maybe it's about an honest reckoning, sort of. We don't have to pretend that masculinity is not about strength or that it's not about being able to provide or that it's. It's not about being able to protect. But we can add to it and say that it is also about these softer things, quote unquote, softer things that you were outlining in your bike story. Empathy, compassion.

[Richard Reeves]

Right.

[Steve Burns]

All of these things are also part of what it means to be strong. At least in my lived experience, they are. You know, and, you know, I don't fit the manosphere's definition of an alpha male, but I don't feel weak in this world, you know, I don't. I simply don't. So I think maybe there's a way of adding to this identity as opposed to trying to fix it.

[Richard Reeves]

Exactly right.

[Steve Burns]

You know.

[Richard Reeves]

Yeah, that's right. Be expansive. So that's I. And I think we can Take a lesson there from the women's movement, because what the women's movement successfully did was it expanded the range of roles that kind of women could be part of. Yeah. But it also largely avoided the trap of saying, we have to get rid of femininity. Yeah, right. In order for women to be successful, they have to stop being feminine. Now, I'm not saying that that was completely successful, but there was a period where women were being told, well, you're going to have to wear shoulder pads and deepen your voice and do assertiveness training and, like, stand in. In other words, in order to succeed in this world of men, you're going to have to kind of become less feminine, become sound more like a man, act more like a man, look, even look more like a man. And enough women just said, no, no, I'm not doing that, thank you very much. I do not feel the need to stop being feminine. I do. I. But I do reject the idea that because I'm feminine, I can't be CEO or president. And God bless them for that. That's. That was a major, major breakthrough. Because what it means is we can do the same thing and say, sure, we want gender equality and we want to go into others, but we want to expand what masculinity looks like, but keep some of those basic virtues and those inclinations around strength and protection and appropriate risk taking if necessary. You know, risking yourself for the lives of another, which is something that does skew very male. Right. If we look at those professions and those people doing that. Right. Hopefully we don't need to do that, but, like, keep all of that. But then it in just many, many different ways, including in the home, including in the school, including in, you know, the church group or wherever it is, you can apply it. So I love what you've just done there because you've taken a leaf from the women's movement book and said, we don't need to abandon masculinity or embrace androgyny. We need to expand masculinity and apply it in a modern context. The masculine virtues remain. They will just be applied in different places and in different ways along with feminine virtues, and one is not better than the other. But I think that the understandable move for the move for equality has sometimes run the risk of downgrading masculine virtues in the interest of smashing the patriarchy. There's been this sense of like, oh, well, while we're at it, let's smash all the masculine virtues and basically say, if you want to get with the program. The future is female, but the future is female is a terrible slogan, especially for boys and young men. The future is equal. Equal, not female. And so we've got to find a way to kind of channel and celebrate masculine virtue, but in a modern, more equal context. That's the. And the reactionaries will take us back and say we need real men to be real men again and women to know their place. And the progressives will say, do we really need men and masculinity anymore? Those are very outdated, patriarchal views that you've just been expressing there, Steve. Can't we just get rid of all that? Why can't you just all become one women? And neither of those messages is appealing to young men. We've got to do better than either of those.

[Steve Burns]

Yeah, yeah. Interesting. Richard, this has been a very fascinating conversation and I was looking very forward to talking to you and I'm glad we were able to do this. This has been really illuminating. Thank you.

[Richard Reeves]

Yeah, well, likewise. That was a real journey. It was a real conversation. There's this guy, Theodore Zeldin, he's a French writer in the UK now and he's. And I feel like this, having spoken to you, he says like a, A communication is just when pieces of information get passed between people. A conversation is when you create something new, when the ideas get brought into kind of collision and something new happens. And I, I feel like you've really pushed me and I've said stuff and thought about stuff in a, in a new way. This idea of identity threat and kind of leaning into that, I think that's really good. I think these ideas about expansion and virtue, like how, how do we make something a virtue in the context of masculinity and then, and then apply it in new contexts, those are, that's really expanded my, my own thinking on some of these issues. So I really want to thank you for that.

[Steve Burns]

And, and right back at you, Richard. I want to thank you as well. This has been a fascinating conversation and have a wonderful evening.

[Richard Reeves]

Yeah, likewise. Great to meet you.

[Steve Burns]

Bye.

[Richard Reeves]

Bye now. All right.

[Steve Burns]

That was awesome. I learned, learned quite a bit from that. One thing I, I really liked when he said that masculinity is fundamentally relational and that being masculine is about giving more than you get.

[Richard Reeves]

Right.

[Steve Burns]

About being a net contributor to society or to your tribe. I like that because it reframes masculinity as about, about empathy and service, not just dominance and strength. We all have a need to be needed and men know it. I was super surprised to learn that men are now more likely than women to say that marriage and family are central to a meaningful life. That surprised me. To me, that suggests that there is currently a a cultural need for masculine connection as opposed to retreat. And yeah, he said that masculine identity has always been evolving. It's always been in flux. What it means to be a man has never been set in stone. Which makes me wonder why so many people keep looking backward to an old set, small definition. Let's go. So as a man, I would say that there are aspects of my masculine identity that could use some work for sure. But I'm wondering what part of that work is about replacing things and what part of it is about letting things evolve and adding to them, right? Like strength and courage and risk taking. These are all, all qualities that I think are part of my masculine identity. But I can tell you in my lived experience, strongest I've ever felt was not when I was dominating something, it was when I was using my strength to help someone else. Biggest risk I've ever taken was being vulnerable. And bravest thing I ever did was ask for help. And that makes me wonder. What takes more strength, fiercely protecting an idea as you understand it or admitting that your understanding of that idea might need to change. What do you think?

[Richard Reeves]

Yeah.

[Steve Burns]

Well, hey, thanks for coming by today. It's always great to see you. It means a lot and you look great. Alive with Steve Burns is a Lemonada Media original. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now's the perfect time. You can listen to the show completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content from me as I reflect on this episode. Just press subscribe on Apple podcasts. Head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. That's Lemonade Alive is hosted by me, Steve Burns and produced by Jeremy Slutskin. Our editor is Christopher Champion Morgan. Our associate producer is Akshay Tharabailu. Audio engineering by James Sparber. Lemonada's SVP of weekly programming is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Jessica Cordover Kramer, Stephanie Whittles, Wax and me. We'll see you next week. And you look great, by the way.

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Want to listen to your favorite Lemonada shows without the ads? Subscribe to Lemonada Premium. On Apple Podcasts, you'll get ad free episodes and exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, Fail Better with David Duchovny, the Sarah Silverman Podcast, and so many more. It's a great way to support the work we do and treat yourself to a smoother, uninterrupted listening experience. Just head to any Lemonada show, feed on Apple Podcasts, and hit subscribe Make Life Suck Less, Less with Fewer Ads with Lemonada Premium. Are you looking for ways to make your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one bestselling author of the Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. My co host and happiness guinea pig is my sister, Elizabeth Craft. That's me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore ideas and.

[Richard Reeves]

Hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits.

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