Steve Burns (4:24)

Before we dive into stuff, I want to know. I want to just kind of get a little history of you because it's so interesting. Like, how did you get from law to. To being such an ardent observer of human happiness?

Gretchen Rubin (4:43)

Yes. It's not the path I necessarily expected, but I'm so happy it happened. Well, it kind of happened in two jumps. So the first jump was going from being a lawyer to being a writer. And that's. I was clerking on the Supreme Court for yes. Which was an amazing experience. And I will often get intensely interested in a subject. And I. I was. I asked myself, what am I interested in that everybody in the world is interested in? And I thought, well, power, money, fame, sex. And it was like, power, money, fame, sex. And I immediately started doing a ton of research and writing on that subject, which to me, felt like one subject. And finally, I thought, I'm doing the kind of thing a person would do if they were going to write a book. Maybe I should write that book. So that was my first book, and so that is how I made the jump from law to writing. And then I. I had just finished a biography of JFK when I was stuck on a crowded city bus, and I asked myself, what do I want from life anyway? And I thought, I want to be happy. But I don't spend any time thinking about how to be happy or if I even can make myself happier. I should do a happiness project and figure this out. And that became my book about happiness. And ever since then, it just turns out that happiness is such a giant subject with so many interesting subparts that I've been exploring different aspects of happiness ever since.

Steve Burns (6:04)

Talk to me about that initial part. So you have this enviable, incredible job clerking at the Supreme Court, but you also had this impulse to deeply explore something that lit you up. Right. But that's a pretty intense thing to say. I'm gonna spend all of my free time because I'm gonna follow this. This moment of curiosity that I have. Right. So you leaned into the wonder and the curiosity in a pretty intense way. What was that about?

Gretchen Rubin (6:42)

Well, you know, I think I was really fortunate in making a huge shift the way that I did, because I think it's very common for people to know they want to leave. They know they want to do something different. They want to leave. What they're doing. But they don't know where to go, so they have to figure that out. That's when you're reading what Color is My Parachute? And whatever. I try to figure out, what do I want? It was so much easier for me because I was being pulled. I wanted to do this. Like you said, the wonder, the curiosity. The more I studied it, the more interested I got. It got bigger and bigger and more and more interesting. That's how I felt. I was like, I know exactly where I want to go. And it wasn't even like, I want to be a writer. It was that I want to write this specific book. But this is something that's happened to me throughout my life. Like, I will get intensely curious about things and then spend a huge amount of time researching and taking notes. They don't always turn into actual books. Often they do, but not always.

Steve Burns (7:33)

Yeah, I can relate to that. I can relate to that in. In a lot of ways, because I was doing a gig for a long time, and when it was over, I was like, I need to do something else in order to be happy. Right? And so when it was over, I asked myself the same question. I said, well, what is it that will make me happy? Where. What is the tractor beam that is pulling my Millennium Falcon? Like, where. Where is it? Where is it pulling me? And I dove into music, right? I was like, oh, I'm gonna write music. Where I was so engaged and I was so involved and connected to what I was doing that it was as. In many ways, as happy as I've ever been just making that music.

Gretchen Rubin (8:21)

But I think it's. It's surprisingly often that people don't have anything in their life that they feel like is. Is the tractor beam. And so partly it's like, okay, if I have that feeling and I want it to be my job, how do I make it my job instead of just something that I do that I love? And sometimes that works, and sometimes it doesn't. But then sometimes people are really like, wow, I don't even. I'm so disconnected that I don't even remember what I like. And a question. I think if you're feeling that way, that can be helpful is, what did you enjoy doing when you were 10 years old? Because often what we did when we were 10 years old is something that we enjoy as adults in an adult way. So, Steve, did you do music stuff when you were 10 years old?

Steve Burns (9:01)

Yep. Yep.

Gretchen Rubin (9:03)

Yeah.

Steve Burns (9:04)

Yep.

Gretchen Rubin (9:05)

And I did reading and writing stuff when I was 10 years old. All kinds of, like, weird, bonkers things. That I did.

Steve Burns (9:09)

That's really interesting because I think if.

Gretchen Rubin (9:12)

You feel that you kind of have lost touch with your enthusiasms, sometimes going back to the past is a place to discover them.

Steve Burns (9:21)

Do you think we kind of get ourselves into trouble? I remember being 13 years old and people saying, you have to figure out what you want to do with your life. Right. And define that right now as a child and set it in the sky somewhere like a north star, and then work real hard and put your head down and travel toward it, and you won't be happy until you get it right. But in my lived experience, the stuff that was adjacent then around that related to, but not specifically that dream of happiness in the future was the good stuff. You know, Like, I was so firmly attached to this concept of happiness in the future that when I had a bunch of good stuff, I couldn't be grateful for it at the time. Do you agree that's kind of like a trap we fall into?

Gretchen Rubin (10:18)

Absolutely. Well, it's often called the arrival fallacy, which is the belief I'll be happy when certain things happen, when I get that breakthrough role, when I buy a house, when I get married. And the research shows that even when you get that thing, it usually is not what you. You expect that you get there and you've got a whole fresh set of problems, or there's a whole fresh set of responsibilities, or life is just life. And there's not this, like, magic transformation that happens at, like, you know, because you signed, you know, your mortgage papers or whatever it is, or you become an incredibly worldwide famous sensation, but you're like, this isn't what I thought it would be, you know, because that's human nature. But so my father, who's an incredibly wise man, always said to me and my sister, enjoy the process. Meaning, do you enjoy the process of working towards something? And the older I get, the more I realize how wise this is, because, first of all, when we get there, we don't have the magical transformation and we might miss out on all the happiness along the way. As you said that, like, you sort of disregarded it as kind of unimportant because, oh, it's all about getting to the destination. But then also sometimes we don't get what we want. Yeah, we don't have that arrival moment, and things aren't in our control. Totally. And so if you enjoy the process, you can enjoy the process of getting there. And of course, it might be very disappointing if things don't work out the way you want, but it will not be as bitter an experience. Because like, like if you're doing something where you cannot enjoy the process, where it's all about the arrival, you really want to rethink it, because that's a really important thing to ask yourself, which is, sure, I want the destination, but how much am I enjoying the process?

Steve Burns (11:55)

Yeah, I mean, that makes. I mean, that makes total sense to me.

Gretchen Rubin (11:58)

I think sometimes we get really fixated on, like, one metric and we think if I don't hit that, then it was a waste of time. It's like, no, there's many ways. Things can be very valuable in all different kinds of ways.

Steve Burns (12:11)

Yeah. What did you. You call this? The arrival fallacy? I love that idea.

Gretchen Rubin (12:17)

Once you arrive, then I will be happy.

Steve Burns (12:20)

It doesn't work out that way in my lived experience. Then you are. You're not present in the moment ever because you're just worried about what's gonna be. And that's just a recipe kind of to be not happy. And also, you'll know this better than I ever will. But I keep reading that human beings aren't super great at knowing what makes them happy anyway.

Gretchen Rubin (12:45)

Oh, yes, that's called hedonic forecasting. There's a great book by Daniel Gilbert called Stumbling on Happiness that's only about hedonic forecasting. And. Exactly. You're exactly right. Spoiler alert. We're not very good at it.

Steve Burns (12:57)

Yeah.

Gretchen Rubin (12:57)

So one of the things you want that absolutely tracks. Yeah. Yeah. So you want to be very mindful about trying to really think about what you think is going to make you happy and why, rather than just kind of hand waving that and assuming that XYZ thing is going to make you happy. Well, what also often happens is that we drift into things. We make decisions without really deciding because we don't know what to do with ourselves. So we follow the course of least resistance. Or somebody else really thinks we should do something. So we're like, okay, fine, I wanna avoid a fight, or we don't know what else to do. That's why I went to law school. I drifted into law school. I was like, oh, I'm good at research and writing. I can always change my mind later. It'll keep my options open. It's a great education. I'm really glad I went. Sometimes you can drift into something and it has a great. But often, like, we're not mindfully choosing. And if you don't mindfully choose something, it's much more likely that you're not going to enjoy the process or not enjoy the arrival because it's not something that you ever set out to do.

Steve Burns (14:01)

Yeah. Yeah. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. So one thing I hear all the time at the top of the new year is new year, new me, and I'm not so into that. I'm not going for a whole new me. I'm gonna go for a slightly different me, a less burdened me. Because we carry all this stuff around with us all year. Shame. Doubt everything. And it becomes all too easy to just think that all of that's simply part of the deal. But therapy can help you sort through what's actually useful to hold on to and what's actually slowing you down. And BetterHelp makes it easy to take that first step. They can help you find a qualified therapist. They, they work with fully licensed US therapists, and they do the matching work up front with a short questionnaire so you can focus on your goals instead of weird paperwork. And if the first match isn't quite right, you can always switch to another therapist at any time. And they've served more than 5 million people worldwide and they have an average of 4.9 out of 5 rating for live sessions. So they're definitely doing something right. So sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com ste that's B E T-T E R H E L P.com SteveAlive so when I'm feeling a little off, what I usually do, my process is that I google my symptoms and then I decide that I'm dying and then I privately spiral. Then I scroll around until someone on TikTok tells me it's no big deal. And then I say, cool, I don't have to book a doctor's appointment for the next infinity months. Well, this year I'm going to stop doing that and I'm actually going to book appointments. And that's where ZocDoc comes in. ZocDoc makes it ridiculously easy to find doctors you actually like and book appointments that fit your life. We're talking about over 150,000 in network providers across all 50 states. You can book in person visits or video appointments, which are my favorite. And a lot of times you're seen within 24 to 72 hours. So there's no weird phone calls or guessing who takes your insurance. And ZocDoc is a free app and website that helps you find and book high quality in network doctors fast. So stop putting it off. Go to Zocdoc.com alive and book a doctor you'll actually want to see that's z o c-o c.com alive. And thanks to Zocdoc for sponsoring this message. So lately it feels like every other conversation I have is about fiber or protein or how bread is somehow a villain in our collective narrative. But I really like a bagel, egg and cheese. I do. And I lived in Brooklyn for a million years and I like avocado toast, and I don't want to give those things up. So how do I keep eating the stuff I like without blowing up my macros? Well, that's where Hero Bread quietly slid into my life. And I sure am glad that it did, because it's d delicious and it has way fewer net carbs and a lot more fiber and a lot more protein. And here's the key part. It doesn't taste weird or dry. It's like soft and fluffy. And I made my bagel, egg and cheese fantastic. And I even made a pbj, which I do believe is the true test of any sandwich bread and passed with flying colors. Hiro makes sliced bread, tortillas, buns and bagels. There's 1 gram net carb buttermilk biscuit, if you can believe that. And they have a 2 gram net carb croissant that has an actual waiting list because of course it does. So if you're trying to hit health goals without declaring more on bread, this is an easy win. Go to Hero co and get 10% off with code alive at checkout. That's a L I v e at h e r o dot co. You write a lot about happiness. You observe happiness. You're kind of a happiness expert at this point, but you, you're very careful to say that it's not so simply defined and it is a complex issue and even a little messy. And so before we keep going, what, what do we mean when we talk about happiness?

Gretchen Rubin (18:29)

There is something like 17 academic definitions of happiness. But I think for the ordinary person, like, you define it the way you want to. People want to argue with me, like, no, it's joy, bliss, contentment, well, being, life, satisfaction, whatever. I'm like, whatever it is for you. What I'm interested in, in my own, like, happiness work is however you define happiness for yourself. And maybe you don't even really define it because I never do. What is it that you can do to be happier? And this is again about enjoying the process. What is it that you can do with your conscious thoughts and actions as part of your ordinary day without spending a lot of extra time, energy, or money? What can you do to be happier? And if that for you means joy, how can you have more joy? If that to you means serenity, how can you have more serenity? And what I find in my lived experience is that just about everybody has a lot of low hanging fruit. There's a lot of things that if we stop and say, are there things in my life that I could do starting today that I think would make me happier. Most people have quite a long list of things that they could do that are not that hard. We just have to stop and ask ourselves the question. And I think that's what's interesting, is moving in the right direction. But we can get very tangled up in definitions. And I think that just. Sure, a scientist has to be precise, but you know, for you and for me, I think we can leave it vague and just know it when we see it.

Steve Burns (19:55)

So. Yeah, okay, so it's not just skipping through a field of wildflowers, you know, like bottle feeding a baby sheep, you know, like that's. Yeah, that's covered in butterflies, right? It's not.

Gretchen Rubin (20:10)

But see, and that's part of why it's confusing because there are these intense moments of like crystallized emotion. But that's not our experience of life. Life isn't skipping through. Nobody's skipping through meadows 15 hours a day. What is that? And also it's very possible to be very happy and very sad at the same time, which is super confusing. I have a friend of mine who said, you know, I'm a person who suffers from depression, but I'm a very happy person. And I'm like, I get that. I get these things can, like these, these paradoxes and these tensions can exist. I think I want to go back.

Steve Burns (20:43)

To experiencing happiness and sadness at the same time. I, I often say I think I got it from my sister, but we often say, yeah, I don't live my life to be happy, you know, And I don't.

Gretchen Rubin (21:00)

And, well, what do you live your life to be?

Steve Burns (21:03)

I live my life more to find a way to accommodate a spectrum of emotions. You know what I mean? I live my life in a way to try to be cool with happy when it's there. I love happy. Happy's great, but sad is a thing too. And I, I hope to just sort of be in a state where I can like, deal with both, accept both, you know, as, as I think you're.

Gretchen Rubin (21:36)

Making it, you're making an absolutely critical point. This is so important because I think sometimes when people say like, oh, can you make your life Happier. They think the aim and the expectation is that you would be. On the 1 to 10 scale of happiness, you would be at 10, 24, 7. Like, that's perfect. Happiness all the time is the goal. But 100% that is not the goal. To me, that is not realistic. That is not how life is. And it wouldn't even be a good life because there are times where it's absolutely appropriate that we would feel bitter loss, serious regret, guilt, shame, anger, resentment, boredom. All of these things have really important roles to play in a happy life, because they're signs that something is not right. We're not living up to our values. We're not pushing back on somebody who's violating our boundaries. We're thinking about the past and realizing that we wish we had made different choices. The experiencing regret for the past can allow us to make different choices in the future. So it's really important to understand that a happier life isn't a life that has no negative emotions. It's understanding how to manage those emotions, first of all, so that they don't overwhelm us, and also so that we can learn from them. Because if you feel guilty about something, that means that in some way you're not living up to your values. So maybe you want to start living up to your values because that way you won't feel guilty anymore. You know, like, every medicine can become poison. It can become a problem that you have to manage. But in the right way, it can be a very helpful tool. For instance, one negative emotion that I am very interested in talking to people about is envy. Because a lot of times people don't even want to admit to envy. There's something very kind of like, almost like humiliating about admitting that you envy somebody and people want to, like, recast it. But envy is really instructive, because if I envy you, that tells me about what I want. And so I should think, like, well, you know, like, if you're envious because your coworker is always going on these great trips. And so sometimes what people do is they kind of trash talk. They'll be like, oh, my gosh, who does she think she is? Like, every. It seems like every three weeks she's, like, going here, going there. Like, you know, what's up with that? Instead of saying, wow, what could I do in my life to have more adventure and travel? And so I think that a happy life is a life that is filled with negative emotions and the challenge of managing negative emotions in a constructive way.

Steve Burns (24:01)

I guess the question is, do you need to be happy all the time, to have a meaningful life. I think.

Gretchen Rubin (24:07)

No, no, 100% not. No. I don't think you even could. No. I think if somebody were happy all the time, you would think that there was something wrong with them.

Steve Burns (24:15)

Me too. Gretchen. This is what I wanted to get into.

Gretchen Rubin (24:18)

It's like people who literally don't experience physical pain, and it's incredibly dangerous for them because pain is really, really important to live a health. Like, we need negative emotions to, you know, keep us going.

Steve Burns (24:29)

I like my negative emotions. I've come to see them as. As useful as, well, if managed, you know, it's. They can help me recalibrate, they can motivate me to do things as. As you were saying. And I've met some people in my life, I'm sure you have, too, that just seem kind of happy all the time. And I'm sure they're not, you know, I'm sure they're not. I believe that the struggle in life is not optional. I think that it's part of being an alive human being on planet Earth is that there is a baseline ache and a baseline insolvability to the experience of life that's going to get you in some way. Right. But these people I know that are happy all the time, and this is just anecdotal, and I'm not trying to make a judgment, but they don't seem to be deeply engaged either, you know, And I like the sensitivity that I have that allows me to feel dark some days and also feel joy some days. And I value it, I guess, is what I'm saying. I value those emotions.

Gretchen Rubin (25:53)

Well, this is so interesting. So what the research shows is that about 50% of your happiness level, say 1 to 10, is genetically determined. So this is a lot of what you bring into the world then about 10 to 20% is something called life circumstances. So this is health, age, marital status, education, occupation, things like that. And then all the rest is very much shapefire, conscious thoughts and actions. Like, what are the decisions that we're making with our life that are within our control? Like, are we doing things that are making us happier? Or like, am I getting a dog or am I spending my money on drugs, whatever it is. And so you will see that there is a big difference just in people's sort of the way they come into the world. Some people kind of are naturally from like a 4 to a 7, and then some people are more naturally from like a 7 to a 10. And one thing that I've noticed is that Sometimes people who are like a 7 to a 10, and these are the people probably they're pointing to who, like, seem happy all the time. And is they kind of say to the other people, like, you've got to get happier.

Steve Burns (26:56)

Yes.

Gretchen Rubin (26:57)

Like, you'll often see, like, a very happy parent with, like, a child who's like, a little, like, just has a lower set range. Like, they want that child to sort of become like them. And, like, you know, I don't want to say bubbly, but you know what I mean? I do know that more kind of. Yeah. And that's just not that child's nature. And what I always say to people like that is, like, they want to be the way they are. Just as you have articulated it. They see the value in their perspective. They want to be the way that they are. Now, I think all of us should be as happy as we can be, given our circumstances and our interests and our values. Because, like, why not, like, might as well be as happy as you can be. But you're right, like a melancholy spirit, a willingness to sort of, like, think about, like, mortality, to be moved by painful things. Like, there's tremendous value there. And so I don't think we have to say, like, I'm better, you're worse. We can just say, interesting. Like, I see it a different way. I. Like, I move through the world differently. And that it's just sort of interesting to see the infinite variety in human nature.

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Gretchen Rubin (29:02)

Hello, I'm Gretchen Rubin. And I'm Lori Gottlieb. We're two friends, one a happiness researcher and the other a therapist. And we are here to tackle the problems of everyday life with all of you, from big issues to small. We'll share advice and fresh perspectives. And we'll also highlight responses from you, our listeners to the questions we discuss. Whether it's that pet peeve that's been bugging you for years, a tricky dilemma, or just something you've always wondered about, we'll talk it through the since youe Asked podcast from Lemonada media premieres on September 23rd. Wherever you get your podcasts.

Lemonada Media Announcer (29:37)

Let'S talk.

Steve Burns (29:38)

A little bit about sadness. How does it relate to happiness? Is it. Is it the opposite of happiness? Is it the nemesis of happiness? Is it like the sibling? Like, I feel like. I feel like there's more there than just opposition.

Gretchen Rubin (29:54)

Sadness is a kind of broad term, the way happiness is a broad term. So one of the things that more and more research is showing is that if you're feeling kind of overwhelmed by emotion, it can be very, very helpful to really try to articulate specifically what you feel. So if you're feeling sad, you could say, I'm feeling sad because I'm working so hard. I don't have any time to do other things that are important to me, like see my friends or work out. I'm feeling sad because I feel like the pain of the world is bearing on me and I don't know what to do with my sadness. I'm feeling sad because I know that it's time to say goodbye to a beloved pet and I just can't. I can't bring myself to do it, even though I know I should. There are so many reasons that you could be feeling sad, but if you just say, I feel sad, it's like, well, then what would you do? Because with all of those things, there are very different things that you would do to address that sadness. But if you just have this kind of generalized sense of like bad feeling or uneasiness, it's hard to know the way forward. And so I think sometimes people feel sort of trapped or stuck because they're not pushing them to say, well, what exactly is the problem? Like a very funny example of this is a friend of mine was like, I hate my job. I hate my job. She was working as a lawyer in dc. She's like, I gotta quit. I don't like law. I've gotta get a new job. And so then I'm like, put cause my sister calls me a happiness bully. Because if I think there's a way for you to get happier, I'll get really insistent. So it's pushing her, pushing her, pushing her. And so she realized it wasn't that she didn't like her job, it's that she hated her commute, so she started listening to audiobooks. Right? Now, it's rare that you have a solution that is so straightforward, but truly, she said to me, my life is transformed. I find myself, like, sitting in my driveway for five extra minutes to, like, listen to another five minutes of an audiobook. No, I don't mind my commute at all. It feels like me time, because I found a way to do something that just transformed my experience. So she completely misdiagnosed something incredibly important. What if she had switch careers? I mean, that would be such a major thing to change, because she had just never stopped to say, like, what is it about my day that is making me so unhappy? Well, it was her commute. But that's kind of a very straightforward and concrete example. Usually, unfortunately, it's much more abstract, but, you know, that's the principle.

Steve Burns (32:18)

Yeah, well, I mean, hey, noise canceling headphones have made New York City much easier for me.

Gretchen Rubin (32:26)

Oh, yeah. Like the subways, right?

Steve Burns (32:28)

The screeching New York City, which I love and admire that place. You know, I grew up around frogs and trees. Like, that's where I grew up. And. And I kind of. I kind of patterned my concept of peace around that as a child. And New York City was loud, and it was an oppressive crush of humanity, and it smelled like pee everywhere. And being on the subway as often as I was really profoundly affected, my general happiness level. And when I moved up here, it was as though I solved an ancient riddle, because.

Gretchen Rubin (33:08)

Okay, but, see, but, Steve, that's exactly what I'm saying about, like, the four to the seven, you're still you.

Steve Burns (33:14)

Yeah, exactly.

Gretchen Rubin (33:15)

But you made a change with your conscious thoughts and actions that profoundly affected your experience of your life.

Steve Burns (33:21)

Yeah, my friends. I noticed it. My friends all noticed it. Like, you are a difference.

Gretchen Rubin (33:25)

There you go.

Steve Burns (33:25)

You are different. Yes, you are different. As a woodland cryptid halfway up a mountain. You know, you got a frog nearby.

Gretchen Rubin (33:33)

And now you're feeling about it.

Steve Burns (33:34)

Gretchen, I got frogs. If you ever need any frogs, I'm your guy.

Gretchen Rubin (33:38)

Okay, you got frogs.

Steve Burns (33:39)

I am lousy with frogs.

Gretchen Rubin (33:40)

Right, but. So that is such a good example, because sometimes people aren't good at diagnosing things like that and not saying, like, really, what's kind of dragging me down is New York City. But it's funny, I wrote this book, Life in Five Senses, that's all about tapping into our five senses. And I. Oh, yeah, there, you got it. And I think sometimes people ignore our sensory surroundings and how important it is to our happiness. And so this is a perfect example. Whereas even the noise canceling headphones is really smart because you might say to yourself, well, maybe I can't leave New York City or there are times that I need to be here, but given that I'm very sensitive to this noise, one thing is to move away, but another thing is to say, well, how do I manage the parts of it that are really hard? And one is to wear the noise canceling headphones because that is part of what makes this so draining for me. Yeah, it's tricky. It's a tricky thing.

Steve Burns (34:32)

It is, it is. But a lot of these negative emotions in my life have been useful, I would say.

Gretchen Rubin (34:39)

Sure. Like when. Give an example.

Steve Burns (34:42)

In that.

Gretchen Rubin (34:42)

Well, in that, like not liking New York City and moving.

Steve Burns (34:47)

Really good example. Yeah. You know, and. Oh, you know, the older I get, the more I'm like, you know what? I'm not going to do that thing at the loud bar with my friends tonight because it's not going to make me happy and it's not going to. That'll create conditions where I don't want to be there. And this person makes me feel like shit all the time. Maybe I don't have to talk to this person. But. But in general, negative emotions for me sometimes can. Can prompt insight and motivate me to recalibrate something. And, and in those ways, they're very useful. You know what I mean?

Gretchen Rubin (35:32)

Yes, absolutely.

Steve Burns (35:33)

Does that make sense?

Gretchen Rubin (35:34)

Absolutely. I think in a way, when people talk about wisdom, that's what wisdom is, which is saying, what could I do differently?

Steve Burns (35:43)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and then, and then there's also, I mean, you know, sadness in general has always gotten a bad rap outside of the Pixar movie. But, but I think there's a lot that that movie got right. It just felt very, very true to me that the mean meaning in your life is often a multicolored marble of emotions that include. Includes negative emotions and positive emotions at the same time. And when, and when you're in that world, when you're thinking, you can, you can look at this with music, Right. I'll look at it like, with music like Mozart's Lacrimosa or something that is so dark and yet beautiful and about yearning for God and also dying at the same time. These things together, when you experience them together is greater than happiness and greater than sadness. It's sublime. It's both at the same time. And that's in my life, when things have both of those flavors at the same time. It feels like that's where the meaning is. That's where the juicy bits are, you know? And I think, you know, I. I try to live my life in search of that stuff as much as possible, but I like happiness when it shows up, you know, happiness is wonderful.

Gretchen Rubin (37:01)

Somebody could get fancy on you and say like. Well, it sounds like what you're saying is that the quality of the sublime is what makes you happy.

Steve Burns (37:09)

Fair.

Gretchen Rubin (37:09)

So this again is why I think we can start arguing about definitions. And it's not really helpful. Like, is this making you happy? And you're like, well, it's because it's a mixed blah. I don't know. To me, this is just like. To me, what this says is, Steve likes the sublime. He should have more sublime in his life. How does he get more sublime? And instead of saying like, does it make me happy? Does it make me happy and sad at the same time? What does that even mean? I don't know, you know, because. But you know what it is that you're seeking.

Steve Burns (37:34)

Yeah, I take your point. Like, I think and I 100 agree. Whatever that is, that fits your proclivity, that. That fits your nature. If you're in tune with that, yes, you want more of that. Right. And you want less of the stuff that decreases that. Right.

Gretchen Rubin (37:50)

I get that when you know that it's good for you. Because sometimes we want things that aren't good for us. And the way that, you know, if something is good for you is like, if you look forward to it and then you experience it with pleasure and then you look back on it and you feel good about it. But sometimes we do something cause we want it, but then we look back on it with regret and we think, oh, my gosh, I told myself that I wanted this or that and that it would make me happy, it would make me feel better. But in the end, it's just making me feel worse. Now. Something like you listening to the Lacrimosa, you think about it with such pleasure. You speak of it with such pleasure, and you look back on it with such pleasure. And you're like, and now I want to learn more about it and experience more things like that. That's obviously good for you. But then there's things like late night online shopping where you're like, oh, this feels great right now. I need it. I deserve it. It's my chance. I've been so good, I'll be good later. Like, there's a million reasons why I feel this good in the moment. Click, click, click. And then a Day later you're like, oh my gosh, I feel like garbage.

Steve Burns (38:47)

Yes. What have I done to myself?

Gretchen Rubin (38:49)

Well, you know, you don't want to do something to make yourself feel better. That just makes you feel worse. So you're right. Finding those things where you're like, whatever it is, it's what you want to bring more into your life. And so, like, for me, as somebody who studies happiness, I would start saying things like, is it in your life enough? Are there ways that you could bring it more to the fore? Can you learn about it? Can you share it with other people? Can you seek out adventures using this? Like, can you bring an element, like, into more and more salience, given that it is such a joy to you? Because sometimes people are like, oh, I love it. But then they don't do anything to try to cultivate it.

Steve Burns (39:26)

I hear all the time that we're in the middle of a loneliness epidemic and that people are less happy than they were, especially in the last five years, six years. How do you think all of that, in your opinion, how does that relate to digital spaces and the way we use media, particularly social media, how is that affecting our happiness, in your opinion?

Gretchen Rubin (39:53)

So the thing about technology is it's an amplifier of human nature in a lot of ways, for better and for worse. And it's new. So we haven't, we don't really have a lot of tools and safeguards around it. So we're struggling with it. The thing about technology is there's so much good that it does. And I think sometimes when people focus on all the negatives that it does, they take for granted all the good that it does. So I think it's very, very complicated. And again, because I always bring things down to the individual, I think given the situation that we're in, what is it that you can do to manage the situation for yourself, maybe for your family in a way that feels right for you, so that you gain the benefits of, of technology and social media, but you are guarding yourself against the negatives. So for instance, doom scrolling, many, many people have a big negative hit because they doom scroll all the time. I don't have a problem with doom scrolling, but if you are doom scrolling, then it's really negative for you and you need to figure out a way to manage it. And there's all different. I've got a bazillion suggestions for how to manage something like doom scrolling, if that's your issue. But to say nobody should have it or it's necessarily bad is not the case. It's like, what does it mean for you and how do you manage it? Now, of course, we have to think about what are governments going to do, what are schools going to do, what are institutions going to do? I'm just not interested in that. I'm like, other people are interested in that. I'm thinking about, what can you do right now? You don't have to wait for anybody else to cooperate or get on board. You can manage this for yourself right now. And maybe you want to get active and work toward a larger solution that's extraordinarily admirable. But you don't necessarily have to wait for systematic change to make changes that could help you right now.

Steve Burns (41:33)

Right. Gretchen, this has been so informative and full of insight, and I'm just thrilled to be meeting you and talking with you. I love what you did with the Happiness Project in particular. I love that you. To me, it seemed like you kind of gamified your life in that moment. You were like, okay, I don't. I don't like where I'm at. I'm not happy where I'm at.

Gretchen Rubin (42:02)

I'm.

Steve Burns (42:02)

I'm unhappy. I'm going to invite that feeling to play, and I'm going to do that with a rigorous, joyful, sort of scientific method. Over 12 months of my life. I just think that was just such a. Such a brilliant life hack. It's kind of the intersection of curiosity, science, rigorous testing, and play. And I think that that's probably a pretty useful strategy for dealing with life in general, you know? So kudos to you. I think that's genius.

Gretchen Rubin (42:35)

Oh, well, thank you.

Steve Burns (42:37)

And no, and thank you. And thank you for stopping by today. This has been really wonderful.

Gretchen Rubin (42:42)

Excellent. Thank you. I just wish I'd gotten to see some of those frogs. I know that they're there.

Steve Burns (42:46)

Next time. Next time, I'll have them. I'll have them on the table here. All right, Gretchen, thanks for stopping by.

Gretchen Rubin (42:53)

Thank you.

Steve Burns (42:53)

Bye. Okay, well, I learned a lot there. How about you? Yeah. Okay. I wrote a few things down. First thing, negative emotions are warning signs. Right? They can signal when something's wrong. Anger, sadness, boredom, even. They can be cues that we maybe aren't living up to our values or that there's some boundary being crossed or. Or that. Or that change is needed. Right? Yeah. Negative emotions can be instructive. Gretchen used the example of envy. Rather than hiding from the emotion of envy, you can use it to ask, okay, well, what is it that I am missing that I desire in my life? And the Third thing I wrote is that negative emotions are essential to a full life. And I agree with that. I do. That seems true to me. You know, a happier life is not necessarily one that is devoid of negative emotions.

Gretchen Rubin (44:10)

It's.

Steve Burns (44:10)

It's one that is inclusive of, that accommodates us spectrum of emotions that can help us recalibrate and grow and live more in alignment with who we are. Yeah. Let's go outside. So it's autumn now. Totally my favorite season. I wish you had seen all of this like five days ago. It looked like fruity pebbles out here. But soon, in just a couple of days, probably all these leaves are going to come down and it's just going to be nothing but brown sticks and it's going to be cold and dull and a little bit bleak for months. Winter is very long up here and it is. It can be depressing, actually. But the last couple of years I kind of started to lean into winter a bit. And now I kind of see it as a season of opportunity to. To grow, to recalibrate, to regenerate, to restore. And I read a lot in the winter, too. I don't know about you. So I end up learning a lot in the winter. And I bring all this up because it occurs to me that our negative emotions are a bit like that. They're seasonal. Right. They're uncomfortable but impermanent. And if you let them be great teachers, at least my negative emotions have been great teachers in my life. Particularly sadness. How about you? What have you learned from sadness?

Lemonada Media Announcer (46:23)

That.

Steve Burns (46:24)

Right. Well, listen, thanks for doing this. Thanks for coming by. I so appreciate it. It means a lot. And you look great. I say it all the time, but I mean it every time. You look great. You. Alive with Steve Burns is a Lemonada Media original. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now's the perfect time. You can listen to the show completely ad free. Plus you'll unlock exclusive bonus content from me as I reflect on this episode. Just press subscribe on Apple podcasts. Head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. That's lemonadapremium.com Alive is hosted by me, Steve Burns, and produced by Jeremy Slutskin. Our editor is Christopher Champion Morgan. Our associate producer is Akshay Tharabailu. Audio engineering by James Sparber. Lemonada's SVP of weekly programming is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Jessica Cordova, Kramer, Stephanie Whittles, Wax and Melissa. We'll see you next week and you look great, by the way.

Lemonada Premium Announcer (47:54)

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Gretchen Rubin (48:28)

To make your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one best selling author of the Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. My co host and happiness guinea pig is my sister Elizabeth Craft. That's me. Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood, would join us as we explore ideas and hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits. Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from Lemonada Media.